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Offline Gamecock

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #25 on: Apr 13, 2011, 07:26 »
I'm not sure where I fall out on this one....

I initially went through the piepline back in 1990, and the drop rate at NFAS and NPS was very high.  If you went to mast, you weren't likely to be retained in the program.  If you were academically challenged, there wasn't many chances to fix yourself (they did sometimes "roll back" guys in NFAS).  Was this the right balance?

Attrition today is low, with lots of "extra" help available to get kids through the pipeline.  Is this the right balance?

Perhaps, we (Big Navy) owed more to those kids we brought in back in the day when the failure rate was much higher then it is now then to just kick them to the curb when things went awry.

I suspect the right balance is somewhere in the middle, but then again, what do I know.
“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

Offline Lip2303

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #26 on: Apr 13, 2011, 08:27 »
Having been through the pipeline somewhat recently (2005), I would say both NPS and Prototype are pumps now. In my section of about 30 people I believe we lost one person due to academics and he had to fail about 5 exams in a row. We had another kid who went to two academic boards, failed comp, failed overall (2.48), failed the final academic board, and they passed him saying "he will do fine in prototype". I do not remember a single dropout once we got into prototype. Once they spent all that money on you they wanted some sort of results.


 To the OP, go ELT if you can! I was ERUL at Charleston, SC S5G. ELT school is 10 weeks of amazing and being an ELT is a lot of fun I think. It pays quite well in the civilian world too!
ALARA specialist
RRPT

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #27 on: Apr 13, 2011, 10:55 »
I'm not sure where I fall out on this one....

I initially went through the piepline back in 1990, and the drop rate at NFAS and NPS was very high.  If you went to mast, you weren't likely to be retained in the program.  If you were academically challenged, there wasn't many chances to fix yourself (they did sometimes "roll back" guys in NFAS).  Was this the right balance?

Attrition today is low, with lots of "extra" help available to get kids through the pipeline.  Is this the right balance?

Perhaps, we (Big Navy) owed more to those kids we brought in back in the day when the failure rate was much higher then it is now then to just kick them to the curb when things went awry.

I suspect the right balance is somewhere in the middle, but then again, what do I know.

I have to agree with the "somewhere in the middle".

Having come from the 80's program where like GC mentioned it was tough.
1. If you sneezed wrong then you were out and
2. If didn't get it then you were out models

My proposal would be go back to the personnel standards of discharge from the program but do a better job of helping the poorer academic performer.  I found that the one's that put in the effort and passed (barely) ended up being the best worker's (i.e. nuke sailor's) we had.  I would like to see more effort to help those that are struggling.

BUT, you have to eliminate the drift wood from the program.

I'm glad we eliminated the "drift wood" sailors (i.e. poor attitudes, military bearing, etc.) from the program when I was in and served.  That means if you went to mast then you were automatically gone.  If you didn't met the commands standards of personal / military behavior you were gone.  Etc.

It seems the pendulum has swung to far in the students (i.e. not the Navy Nuclear Program's) favor.

Mac

Offline playswithairplanes

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #28 on: Apr 13, 2011, 11:33 »
From my perspective, I think the hardass 80s way was fine. Not just because I survived it, but because if you consider the responsibility being bestowed upon a dips**t 19 or 20 year old, we NEED to have the highest quality possible. Nuke wastes don't mean they are bad sailors, and other rates benefited highly from their presence. Hell, with out them A-Gang would have fallen apart completely. Sonar girls would have been totally limpwristed. IMO it's only the presence of these fine upstanding individuals, the Nuke Wastes, that saved these divisions. Ok, I'm being a wee bit tongue in cheek there, but the thrust of it's the truth.

We don't do our fleet any good by codling these kids in the pipeline. It just means there are more troubles the boats have to deal with when these idiots who never should have made it past Week 2 of NPS show up. The boats need to be focused on operations, not on having to worry about idiots operating nuclear power plants.

As an old salt, I was always glad and confident that when I went on watch in Maneuvering that the guys in the Engine Room were top quality, and you could rely on them no matter what. With the fallen standards I've heard about (and it may have been exaggerated, and I hope it is) I worry for our fleet. It means that when the chips are down, good people will die needlessly. The record of the Nuclear Navy is impeccable, in part due to our high quality training.
« Last Edit: Apr 13, 2011, 12:18 by Nuclear NASCAR »
Airplanes and submarines... they are similar it's just the density of the fluid that separates them

Samabby

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #29 on: Apr 13, 2011, 02:10 »
Quote from: Gamecock on Yesterday at 08:25
.....Greatest Baseball player of all time.


That's a subjective one,....throw Stan Musial in the mix and now you've got a horse

I have read several sports articles that conclude that the greatest challenge in all sports is the ability to hit a major league pitch. Ted Williams did it 4 times out of 10 for an entire season.

oooo35980

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #30 on: Apr 14, 2011, 04:34 »
The hardass method doesn't work when you take into account that the people from today are not the same as the 80s.  To be frank it's impossible to expect the same level of commitment and hard work out of the people that grew up in the 90s and 2000s.  Well, it's not impossible to expect it, you just won't get it about 95% of the time.  So the program takes what it can get and pushes them through, if it didn't then we wouldn't have enough nukes, it's as simple as that really.  It's still a filter, it just isn't a very good filter.

shocker

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #31 on: Apr 14, 2011, 04:55 »
Comparing the people getting masted in the past to the people getting masted today is apples and oranges.  From everything I have ever been told of how it "used to be" far fewer people got masted in the past.  Not so much because of a change in behavior, but because of a change in command climate.  There have been times I've felt like I know what it would have been like to live in Salem at this command...

Cherenkov

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #32 on: Apr 14, 2011, 04:59 »
The hardass method doesn't work when you take into account that the people from today are not the same as the 80s.  To be frank it's impossible to expect the same level of commitment and hard work out of the people that grew up in the 90s and 2000s.  Well, it's not impossible to expect it, you just won't get it about 95% of the time.  So the program takes what it can get and pushes them through, if it didn't then we wouldn't have enough nukes, it's as simple as that really.  It's still a filter, it just isn't a very good filter.

Hogwash. We can and do expect people to perform at high levels, regardless of their generation, and we most certainly have every right to. Hard workers are hard workers, whether they are from the 80s or 90s... They are cut from the same cloth. It is they that float to the top even after being pumped through the now low quality NNPP. Only lazy and stupid people make generational excuses, IMO.

-C

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #33 on: Apr 14, 2011, 05:08 »
There have been times I've felt like I know what it would have been like to live in Salem at this command...

Put away the crying towel  >:(  Just at Nuke School, I knew 3 guys that were above 2.5 that were denuked without even so much as a mast. One mentioned at the Univ. of Ariz. sponsored NASAP class he had drank to passing out - she snitched him out and he was gone within the week. One guy climbed the fence back into NTC Orlando with a 0.38 BAC, gone within a month. Another guy was well about 2.5, but due to answering a Rx physics question with "spontaneous fission", had to see section adviser who sent him to the shrinks at Medical, who got him discharged for 'excessive Christian fanatacism'. The MM drinkers were both mellow drunks who would've  made decent shipmates, and the EM tutored classmates on his own time. There have been plenty of bad deals and bad calls on who should be a Nuke for 4 decades now, trying to maintain as close to a zero-defect environment as possible (we'd like to hope)

Offline Gamecock

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #34 on: Apr 14, 2011, 08:16 »
Threadjack in progress.......


Dave,
I really like the new profile photo....


Marssim,
TW missed parts of 5 seasons, three of those years were prime years, fighting in WW2 and Korea.  If you project his stats for those years, there really is no debate.  He likely would have been the all-time home run king.  It pains me to say he's the greatest, since I'm as big a Yankee fan as you (maybe), but I show respect where it is due.

Threadjack complete......
“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

shocker

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #35 on: Apr 14, 2011, 08:26 »
That was my point HydroDave.  It takes a whole lot to get dropped from the program these days.  Most masted people don't get kicked out of the program in the current setting.  However, the command is much more likely to take people to mast.  For example - a similar incident happened to your .38 BAC occurance and 15+ people were taken to mast.  Most of which are still in the program.  From what I understand of how it used to be, only those immediately involved would have been masted when it was a "filter".

The Salem remark was made in reference to the mass mastings more so than to "bad deals".

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #36 on: Apr 15, 2011, 07:32 »
 
  From what I understand of how it used to be, only those immediately involved would have been masted when it was a "filter".

The Salem remark was made in reference to the mass mastings more so than to "bad deals".

You would be wrong.  If you were party too or had knowledge of said event (and did nothing) in the old days and they could (and in most cases they didn't care if they could) prove it then you went to mast and you were toast.

You don't have any idea what the old program was like, obviously.

Do not pass go and do not collect $200.

Mac

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #37 on: Apr 15, 2011, 07:58 »
Just as a reminder:

Sailor’s Creed

“I am a United States Sailor.  I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America and I will obey the orders of those appointed over me.  I represent the fighting spirit of the Navy and those who have gone before me to defend freedom and democracy around the world. I proudly serve my country’s Navy combat team with honor, courage and commitment.  I am committed to excellence and the fair treatment of all.”

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #38 on: Apr 15, 2011, 07:59 »
You would be wrong.  If you were party too or had knowledge of said event (and did nothing) in the old days and they could (and in most cases they didn't care if they could) prove it then you went to mast and you were toast.

You don't have any idea what the old program was like, obviously.

Do not pass go and do not collect $200.

Mac

I think he's refering to old navy more then old nuke. Some of the crap people got masted for was mind blowing. Kid in my division was sent to mast for falling off his motorcycle without wearing a leather jacket. Off base. He was wearing a helmet (the only LEGALLY required PPE). Just the first example that comes to mind. We all heard stories of "old navy" where your chief was god and handled everything.

Stopping myself before I go into a massive, self catalytic rant, but you get my point ;)

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #39 on: Apr 15, 2011, 08:51 »

I think he's refering to old navy more then old nuke.

Really?  I think you might want to re-evaluate your position CM.

One
Mainly because Im still in A-school.  It's a pain to change into NSU/Civilian clothes to run to the store or get a haircut off base just to come back and change back into NWU's, finish the homework, change back into civilian clothes to sleep in...  Granted its a minor inconvienence but Im practicing the whole bitching sailor thing :-P

Two
Comparing the people getting masted in the past to the people getting masted today is apples and oranges.  From everything I have ever been told of how it "used to be" far fewer people got masted in the past.  Not so much because of a change in behavior, but because of a change in command climate.  There have been times I've felt like I know what it would have been like to live in Salem at this command...

Three
That was my point HydroDave.  It takes a whole lot to get dropped from the program these days.  Most masted people don't get kicked out of the program in the current setting.  However, the command is much more likely to take people to mast.  For example - a similar incident happened to your .38 BAC occurance and 15+ people were taken to mast.  Most of which are still in the program.  From what I understand of how it used to be, only those immediately involved would have been masted when it was a "filter".

The Salem remark was made in reference to the mass mastings more so than to "bad deals".

In one it appears that (s)he is still in A School.  Thusly, (s)he wouldn't know what the Naval Nuclear Power Program much less the Regular Navy is or is not like.

Please re-read the other quoted posts and tell me honestly that you believe your statement is still valid.

Mac

shocker

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #40 on: Apr 17, 2011, 01:14 »
Mac, thank you for highlighting that - as I said - my knowledge of past events in the training pipeline was second hand.  Thank you also for pointing out that I am a current student in the pipeline.  From your posts I know that you were in my shoes in the 80's, and are now no longer in the Navy.  In other words - my experience with the pipeline in the 80's are roughly the same as your experience with the current pipeline.

It is frustrating to always hear the same thing ("If you haven't done a sea tour, you dont know squat") when that experience is unrelated to the topic at hand.  I offered my opinion of a current student at NNPTC on a topic that had shifted (as it usually does) from NPTU to the training pipeline in general.  My opinion is shared by many of my fellow students (I would say a majority).  We base our comparison to the multitudes of stories we hear about Orlando, and when Charleston first opened, which are usually followed by "You could get away with it back then, it wasn't like it is now."

That said the NNPP has been around 60 years.  The "old days" are going to be different for most people you talk to.  It would be difficult to find many people who had experience with the program in the 80's and are still with the program.  While I don't doubt the truth of your experiences, I would not say they represent an exact representation of the pipeline for the entire 60 years.  For example for the first 5 years of the 80's I doubt underage drinking was as big of an issue as it would have been in the second half of the decade, or as it is today.

Offline spekkio

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #41 on: Apr 17, 2011, 03:06 »
Quote
It is frustrating to always hear the same thing ("If you haven't done a sea tour, you dont know squat") when that experience is unrelated to the topic at hand.  I offered my opinion of a current student at NNPTC on a topic that had shifted (as it usually does) from NPTU to the training pipeline in general.  My opinion is shared by many of my fellow students (I would say a majority).  We base our comparison to the multitudes of stories we hear about Orlando, and when Charleston first opened, which are usually followed by "You could get away with it back then, it wasn't like it is now."
You get flack because it's difficult to judge the quality of a training program until you see the results. That won't happen until you are qualified and talk to a new gaggle of prototype graduates who can't intelligently talk about any of the few systems or components that are actually the same between prototype and the ship.

Doesn't really matter too much in the end, though, because you have to undo all the negative operational training for the smart people anyway.
« Last Edit: Apr 17, 2011, 03:10 by spekkio »

drayer54

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #42 on: Apr 17, 2011, 03:32 »
I think that it is in our nature to look at those coming up behind us and think they aren't where we were and it wasn't as tough as it was for me.  :old:I think that it is true when older generations look at younger generations coming out of school or older members of the workforce looking at the newer ones. I know I said some dumb stuff about nuclear power when I was at S8G, just like most of you probably did in that phase, then we learn... We have several bright individuals in the program today, just like we did when Marssim walked through the snow and up the hill to get power school, and that was before boots!

"You could get away with it back then, it wasn't like it is now."
I heard that one too and think some things were probably better and others have become better. It goes both ways. I wanted that life back in the plant far more than I did during the pipeline.
More like the shadow of Rickover fading,...

The shadow fades,.....
This is true as well. It's his program and in his absence it has slowly loosened the grip for sure. I think that was unavoidable.

Offline DDMurray

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #43 on: Apr 17, 2011, 07:28 »
I was in NNPS Class 8502.  I went to conventional EM A school in Great Lakes where you had to be above some class ranking to continue on to NNPS pre-school.  I went to three week pre-school.
   Things I remember guys getting dropped for:
- Being late for the third time
- Failure to do homework after formal counseling
- Getting injured in motorcycle accident and not wearing a helmet
- Speeding ticket after receiving speeding ticket waiver
- Dropped at NPTU out-hull for flunking spill training
- Masted, sent to CCU right after the mast (not even allowed to pick up his stuff) after getting 30% behind the qual curve and missing target set after command review board

I returned to NPS as a section advisor in April 1990.  By then NFAS was stood up.  Things guys got kicked out for:
-See above
- Under age drinkers generally busted and retained.  Many re-earned their crows.
-Passing a week 24 (comp) academic board was rare.

I returned to NNPTC in Feb 1998.
Things guys got retained for:
- Cheating on homework
- Running a business selling fake IDs to underage drinkers
- Chance of being retained regardless of Comp academic board performance was probably >75%

On the non-tangible side, when I reported to my first boat in 1986, the CPOs all complained about the poor quality of pipeline grads.
When I returned to the fleet as an E Div Chief, I couldn't believe the guys they were sending to the fleet.
When I was EDMC in new con, I couldn't believe some of the guys who made it through special screening.
The more things change, the more things stay the same.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

Offline 730SMAG

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #44 on: Apr 18, 2011, 09:38 »
I went through NFAS 0326 and NPS 0404 (Yeah, yeah, I was supposed to be in 0306, but something called a security clearance got me), and I'll put it this way...

It felt, to me, like the guys coming after me were pumped through the program.  Admittedly, the old salts on my boat said the same thing about my class, but I certainly felt like there was a step down in overall pipeline quality.  We had people coming in, as I was getting out, who basically had to be sat down and taught BEQ stuff from the ground up - this is a steam turbine, this is the Rankine cycle, basic reactor physics, etc.

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #45 on: Apr 18, 2011, 12:58 »
Mac, thank you for highlighting that - as I said - my knowledge of past events in the training pipeline was second hand.  Thank you also for pointing out that I am a current student in the pipeline.  From your posts I know that you were in my shoes in the 80's, and are now no longer in the Navy.  In other words - my experience with the pipeline in the 80's are roughly the same as your experience with the current pipeline.

It is frustrating to always hear the same thing ("If you haven't done a sea tour, you dont know squat") when that experience is unrelated to the topic at hand.  I offered my opinion of a current student at NNPTC on a topic that had shifted (as it usually does) from NPTU to the training pipeline in general.  My opinion is shared by many of my fellow students (I would say a majority).  We base our comparison to the multitudes of stories we hear about Orlando, and when Charleston first opened, which are usually followed by "You could get away with it back then, it wasn't like it is now."

That said the NNPP has been around 60 years.  The "old days" are going to be different for most people you talk to.  It would be difficult to find many people who had experience with the program in the 80's and are still with the program.  While I don't doubt the truth of your experiences, I would not say they represent an exact representation of the pipeline for the entire 60 years.  For example for the first 5 years of the 80's I doubt underage drinking was as big of an issue as it would have been in the second half of the decade, or as it is today.

Shocker, my post was not meant to "call you out".  Using someone's posts to clarify there experience is completely leggit.

I am just pointing out, and manifested in your post, you have zero knowledge of your own era much less one that exsisted before you were born.

Those are the facts.  When you finish a 6 year tour then you can comment on your era.  And, maybe, make some comparisions regarding previous ones.

You have every right to post on the current events you witness.  We appreciate those kinds of posts from "nubs" ..  :P ;) :o ;D

Peace
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 12:59 by MacGyver »

ravenuke

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #46 on: Apr 18, 2011, 08:50 »
Prototype is very much a pump.  Not any different from A school or Power school.  I have came through the program with a sailor who failed the majority of the tests in A school including comp, got an ac board and was pushed through.  This same person failed 13 exams in power school including comp, and as before, got a super easy GED ac board and was pushed through.  The same is happening at prototype.  Kid failed his 50 on all sections.  All that will happen is he will get a long remedial, take it again (probably fail again) and be counseled. 

I say this about this kid, because he is very unintelligent, but he works hard.  That is all that matters.  If you are so stupid that you can barely tie your shoe but you are trying extra hard and put in plus hours, you are as good as the kid who is 30% ahead of the curve.

On the other hand, short your hours and be stupid, you're out.  Get a DUI, you are out.  Decide you've got the brain pain and want to kill yourself and they may get rid of you, at least deNuke you.


drayer54

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #47 on: Apr 18, 2011, 09:02 »
I say this about this kid, because he is very unintelligent, but he works hard.  That is all that matters.  If you are so stupid that you can barely tie your shoe but you are trying extra hard and put in plus hours, you are as good as the kid who is 30% ahead of the curve.
I'm sure he will do just fine in the fleet. My experience tells me that these guys can end up being a valuable asset to a division with some work ethic. I am not saying that dumb guys automatically have it, but it sounds like he does... and will do quite well. It's those guys that slide through without trying and then end up never trying on anything that drive me nuts.
On the other hand, short your hours and be stupid, you're out.  Get a DUI, you are out.  Decide you've got the brain pain and want to kill yourself and they may get rid of you, at least deNuke you.
That's called being a "Sad Panda." If you're a facebook user, you can look up the Sad Pandas of RX. Department group. It started as a few ELT's on Truman making fun of the Sad Panda's and then slowly everyone else caught on and now it's a big group with a ton of nukes in there. This is the same in the fleet.
« Last Edit: Apr 19, 2011, 01:22 by drayer54 »

Specterx96

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #48 on: Apr 25, 2011, 11:37 »
week 16 of sc 5sg proto this place is definitely a pump, if it was a filter i would have been gone in NFAS

MacGyver

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Re: prototype... filter or pump?
« Reply #49 on: Apr 25, 2011, 11:45 »
week 16 of sc 5sg proto this place is definitely a pump, if it was a filter i would have been gone in NFAS

S5W (re: 5sg)?!?!?!?!?  I didn't think that SC proto had any S5G's?  Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, I think you're right.  More proof that the Navy's Nuclear Program is approaching a Specific Gravity of 1.


 


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