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plutone

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I get that this site is for nuclear enthusiasts and careerists but I'm still going to ask a few pointed questions:

1) How do y'all feel about the workers role as "jumper", also known as "liquidator" in the case of serious accidents? I understand they burned thru about 700,000 of them during the Chernobyl mitigation efforts. How many will it take to clear the radioactive rubble from 3 reactor meltdowns (with exploded buildings) and 5 spent fuel pools? What will be the cumulative dose and DNA damage to those of reproductive age?

2) Should it have been foreseen that building 6 reactors within a few feet of each other on a site with a history of major seismic activity might lead to future problems? That if one reactor explodes it will now be difficult to deal with the rest? That, even if the reactors survive the immediate quake, guess what causes tsunamis?

3) Is it reasonable for the world to depend on an energy source that has regular intermittant accidents that spread radioactive particles worldwide? Should we trust the nuclear industry that says it won't happen here, again?

4) How much do nuclear workers understand about the crucial difference between external and internal radiation dose? Do they realize that there has been a long running effort to confuse this issue and minimize consequential health effects by the industry and it's promoters?

 
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:21 by Marlin »

Offline Rennhack

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« Reply #1 on: Apr 13, 2011, 01:38 »
I get that this site is for nuclear enthusiasts and careerists but I'm still going to ask a few pointed questions:

1) How do y'all feel about the workers role as "jumper", also known as "liquidator" in the case of serious accidents? I understand they burned thru about 700,000 of them during the Chernobyl mitigation efforts. How many will it take to clear the radioactive rubble from 3 reactor meltdowns (with exploded buildings) and 5 spent fuel pools? What will be the cumulative dose and DNA damage to those of reproductive age?

2) Should it have been foreseen that building 6 reactors within a few feet of each other on a site with a history of major seismic activity might lead to future problems? That if one reactor explodes it will now be difficult to deal with the rest? That, even if the reactors survive the immediate quake, guess what causes tsunamis?

3) Is it reasonable for the world to depend on an energy source that has regular intermittant accidents that spread radioactive particles worldwide? Should we trust the nuclear industry that says it won't happen here, again?

4) How much do nuclear workers understand about the crucial difference between external and internal radiation dose? Do they realize that there has been a long running effort to confuse this issue and minimize consequential health effects by the industry and it's promoters?

So that's what a Troll looks like.

 :trollbash: :notrolls:
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:31 by Marlin »

Pman52

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« Reply #2 on: Apr 13, 2011, 07:43 »


4) How much do nuclear workers understand about the crucial difference between external and internal radiation dose? Do they realize that there has been a long running effort to confuse this issue and minimize consequential health effects by the industry and it's promoters?

 

With roughly half the site being from the HP field of various positions and experience I would imagine this has been covered a few times with them.... :->


3) Is it reasonable for the world to depend on an energy source that has regular intermittant accidents that spread radioactive particles worldwide? Should we trust the nuclear industry that says it won't happen here, again?


[agree]
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:32 by Marlin »

Offline Smart People

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« Reply #3 on: Apr 13, 2011, 12:20 »
4) How much do nuclear workers understand about the crucial difference between external and internal radiation dose? Do they realize that there has been a long running effort to confuse this issue and minimize consequential health effects by the industry and it's promoters?
Perhaps you can look up the 10CFR20 regulation that all of us nukeworkers are trained to and HPs are hired to enforce.

There is no confusion.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:32 by Marlin »
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Offline namlive

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« Reply #4 on: Apr 13, 2011, 08:59 »
I get that this site is for nuclear enthusiasts and careerists but I'm still going to ask a few pointed questions:
1)How do y'all feel about the workers role as "jumper", also known as "liquidator" in the case of serious accidents? I understand they burned thru about 700,000 of them during the Chernobyl mitigation efforts. How many will it take to clear the radioactive rubble from 3 reactor meltdowns (with exploded buildings) and 5 spent fuel pools? What will be the cumulative dose and DNA damage to those of reproductive age?
2) Should it have been foreseen that building 6 reactors within a few feet of each other on a site with a history of major seismic activity might lead to future problems? That if one reactor explodes it will now be difficult to deal with the rest? That, even if the reactors survive the immediate quake, guess what causes tsunamis?
3) Is it reasonable for the world to depend on an energy source that has regular intermittant accidents that spread radioactive particles worldwide? Should we trust the nuclear industry that says it won't happen here, again?
4) How much do nuclear workers understand about the crucial difference between external and internal radiation dose? Do they realize that there has been a long running effort to confuse this issue and minimize consequential health effects by the industry and it's promoters?

1. These are very good and serious questions, some of which I have raised myself.  The workers, by law will be limited to 25 REM/year. In Japan, I believe that is a floating year. The same jumpers will be used over and over again. We used jumpers in this country for steam generator work.  The BIER model claims there will be 1 cancer death for every 10,000 person REM. So if 1,000 jumpers make 2 dives of 25 REM each or 50 Rem, that would be a total of 50,000 Rem, or 5 cancer deaths. So if 700,000 jumpers worked 2 years, that would be 3,500 cancer deaths for clean up.
2. I agree they are built too close. But they are very safe for the accidents they planned for. TMI, Chernobyl, and Fukishima were all accidents we were assured would never happen. When I was at David-Besse, I found out they built the plant in a 100 year flood zone. I scratched my head. They deliberately built a plant in an area that doesn't stay above water all the time. Why? They got a good deal on the land. I work in the industry, but I won't defend its stupidity.
3. You talk as if spewing radioactive particles across the globe is a bad thing as if this is the only planet we can live on.
4. Let's be honest on this one. The nuclear industry doesn't confuse internal and external dose any more, they consider it all the same. In fact they preach hormesis, i.e that a little dose is healthy for you. I personally don't trust any industry that comes out and claims that their product is "natural." Nor does the industry recognize that chronic dose can destroy a cell with less dose than an acute dose because the cell doesn't have the time to recover without getting zapped again. This there is a constant flow of OH ions to the cell membrane which destroys it. In an acute dose, the cell forms more OH ions, but they can't all get to the cell membrane. They can recombine before they do damage. By making internal and external dose all the same, the industry saves tons of money in outage costs. It is a scam and most of us who have been around long enough know it is a scam.  But the nuclear industry has its controlling body, the NRC in the palm of its hand. Now the DOE is a different story. Most workers don't like that fact that they can take something home with them. It is my job to make fun of them so they will.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:32 by Marlin »
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Offline OldHP

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« Reply #5 on: Apr 13, 2011, 09:29 »

1. These are very good and serious questions, some of which I have raised myself.  The workers, by law will be limited to 25 REM/year.
4. Let's be honest on this one. The nuclear industry doesn't confuse internal and external dose any more, they consider it all the same. In fact they preach hormesis, i.e that a little dose is healthy for you.  

 :->   :notrolls:

I think it is time for you to go back through "a good rad worker training program", assuming you have ever had any training.  Your grasp of the basics is not self evident!

« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:33 by Marlin »
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Offline Smart People

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« Reply #6 on: Apr 13, 2011, 11:02 »

4. Let's be honest on this one. The nuclear industry doesn't confuse internal and external dose any more, they consider it all the same. In fact they preach hormesis, i.e that a little dose is healthy for you. I personally don't trust any industry that comes out and claims that their product is "natural." Nor does the industry recognize that chronic dose can destroy a cell with less dose than an acute dose because the cell doesn't have the time to recover without getting zapped again. This there is a constant flow of OH ions to the cell membrane which destroys it. In an acute dose, the cell forms more OH ions, but they can't all get to the cell membrane. They can recombine before they do damage. By making internal and external dose all the same, the industry saves tons of money in outage costs. It is a scam and most of us who have been around long enough know it is a scam.  But the nuclear industry has its controlling body, the NRC in the palm of its hand. Now the DOE is a different story. Most workers don't like that fact that they can take something home with them. It is my job to make fun of them so they will.

although there have been studies showing hormesis to be real. this is not a philosophy of the nuclear business. hormesis is only mentioned in some training. the nuclear business subscribes to no threshold limit i.e. any dose is bad dose.

that is why ALARA (As Low As Reasonably Achievable) is so strongly emphasized. having been an ALARA planner, I can tell you it is taken very seriously.

Yes, Dose is dose. internal dose is treated the same as external dose but the damage is weighted over a 50 year average and that total dose is assigned to you now. based on isotopic derived air concentrations (DAC).


10CFR20 look it up.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:34 by Marlin »
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plutone

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Pointed questions for nuclear enthusiasts and careerists
« Reply #7 on: Apr 14, 2011, 12:20 »
Re: A few pointed questions.

Believe it or not these are serious questions, despite my misgivings I have no desire to exaggerate the dangers of nuclear power.

I write about this subject and want to be as accurate as possible; I am sincerely interested in the point of view of those who are closer to the actual scene than I am.

So I appreciate the serious answers, but the name calling and obfuscations give me less confidence in the collective wisdom here.

Perhaps it would be illuminating to conduct an opinion poll:

1) How many think that the nuclear industry has been candid with the public about the risks of nuclear power plants and the effects of radiation exposure?

2) How many think that building plants a few feet apart on the same site is a good policy?

3) How many think it is OK to employ naive liquidators as long as they are not forced into it (except by economic necessity)?

more to follow

« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:34 by Marlin »

Offline HydroDave63

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« Reply #8 on: Apr 14, 2011, 12:44 »
I write about this subject and want to be as accurate as possible; I am sincerely interested in the point of view of those who are closer to the actual scene than I am.

Do you have rights for commercial reproduction of the posts? Will you use full attribution, or slice and dice? yeah, thought so.

If you want to poll people and ignore answers already given to reach your own conclusions ala "Generation Kill Nuke", then why not fly over to Tokyo, imbed with a cleanup team and find out for yourself?
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:34 by Marlin »

Offline roadhp

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #9 on: Apr 14, 2011, 05:33 »
Re: A few pointed questions.

Believe it or not these are serious questions, despite my misgivings I have no desire to exaggerate the dangers of nuclear power.

I write about this subject and want to be as accurate as possible; I am sincerely interested in the point of view of those who are closer to the actual scene than I am.

So I appreciate the serious answers, but the name calling and obfuscations give me less confidence in the collective wisdom here.

Perhaps it would be illuminating to conduct an opinion poll:

1) How many think that the nuclear industry has been candid with the public about the risks of nuclear power plants and the effects of radiation exposure?

2) How many think that building plants a few feet apart on the same site is a good policy?

3) How many think it is OK to employ naive liquidators as long as they are not forced into it (except by economic necessity)?

more to follow



1.  The nuclear industry has been as up front as they can with the public as far as I am concerned.  Some details are just too specific for the general public to understand or comprehend.  If you look at the iaea website or nei, you can get a more detailed picture of the plant status if you can understand it.  Question back at you:  How many people who write about this or report this are looking at making headlines and sensationalism instead of reporting facts?

2.  Building plants a few feet away makes economic sense.  As far as the common sense, as has been mentioned before, if you have a great deal of talent in one place, great things can be acheived.  The industry has plants built together so they can share resources during a shutdown or even an emergency.

3.  So far at Fukushima, the "Liquidators" have been the same people you are maligning for keeping the public in the dark and forcing others to get dose.  They have been getting the dose to save their plant from further harm and protect the very people that you say they are harming.  Unlike Chernobyl, they are all volunteers who know very well the risks they are getting into, yet do it anyway because the risks of not doing it outweigh their personal risk.

The question that you didn't ask is the most important one:  Why nuclear power instead of all of the other options?  For that one, you will need to read alot more in this and other streams with an open mind, but my take on it is nuclear power is a good option compared to wind which doesn't blow all the time, sun which doesn't shine all the time, hydro which has almost been completely used, and fossil which does much more harm to the environment than a thousand Fukushimas
Brave, brave Sir Robin, set forth from Camelot!!!!

Offline Smart People

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #10 on: Apr 14, 2011, 08:20 »
Re: A few pointed questions.
I write about this subject and want to be as accurate as possible; I am sincerely interested in the point of view of those who are closer to the actual scene than I am.


Are you a columnist or blogger? if so, let us know who you are so we can get a better idea of where you are coming from. and we can debate in earnest.
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Cherenkov

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #11 on: Apr 14, 2011, 08:38 »
Re: A few pointed questions.

Believe it or not these are serious questions, despite my misgivings I have no desire to exaggerate the dangers of nuclear power.

I write about this subject and want to be as accurate as possible; I am sincerely interested in the point of view of those who are closer to the actual scene than I am.

So I appreciate the serious answers, but the name calling and obfuscations give me less confidence in the collective wisdom here.

Perhaps it would be illuminating to conduct an opinion poll:

1) How many think that the nuclear industry has been candid with the public about the risks of nuclear power plants and the effects of radiation exposure?

2) How many think that building plants a few feet apart on the same site is a good policy?

3) How many think it is OK to employ naive liquidators as long as they are not forced into it (except by economic necessity)?

more to follow



Sounds like gonzo journalism to me.

-C

Offline Dave Warren

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #12 on: Apr 14, 2011, 09:08 »
Are you a columnist or blogger? if so, let us know who you are so we can get a better idea of where you are coming from. and we can debate in earnest.

That really isn't fair either. There are many that hide behind the face of an imaginary name here. By asking them to reveal who they are, we break the code that Rennhack has allowed others to live by for quite some time.

If we think about inundating this anonymous person with knowledge and subject matter expertise, they will get a better feel for the way we operate. You can catch more bees with honey than you can vinegar. Confucius say it is easier to persuade people if you use polite arguments and flattery than if you are confrontational.

Politics notwithstanding, of course.....


RAD-GHOST

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #13 on: Apr 14, 2011, 09:25 »

First the questioner has to respect your knowledge as truthfully delivered information and not propaganda,...


From the Human Nature Perspective, that will work only if you AGREE with them........ [stir]

Got to go, Feeding Time....RG!

Offline Dave Warren

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #14 on: Apr 14, 2011, 09:56 »

1) How many think that the nuclear industry has been candid with the public about the risks of nuclear power plants and the effects of radiation exposure?

Although radiation may cause cancers at high doses and high dose rates, currently there are no data to establish unequivocally the occurrence of cancer following exposure to low doses and dose rates – below about 10,000 mrem (100 mSv). Those people living in areas having high levels of background radiation – above 1,000 mrem (10 mSv) per year – such as Denver, Colorado, have shown no adverse biological effects.

Even so, the radiation protection community conservatively assumes that any amount of radiation may pose some risk for causing cancer and hereditary effect, and that the risk is higher for higher radiation exposures. A linear, no-threshold (LNT) dose response relationship is used to describe the relationship between radiation dose and the occurrence of cancer. This dose-response hypothesis suggests that any increase in dose, no matter how small, results in an incremental increase in risk. The LNT hypothesis is accepted by the NRC as a conservative model for determining radiation dose standards, recognizing that the model may over estimate radiation risk.

Found at: http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/bio-effects-radiation.html



Offline Smart People

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #15 on: Apr 14, 2011, 10:13 »
That really isn't fair either. There are many that hide behind the face of an imaginary name here. By asking them to reveal who they are, we break the code that Rennhack has allowed others to live by for quite some time.

If we think about inundating this anonymous person with knowledge and subject matter expertise, they will get a better feel for the way we operate. You can catch more bees with honey than you can vinegar. Confucius say it is easier to persuade people if you use polite arguments and flattery than if you are confrontational.

Politics notwithstanding, of course.....



Me? confrontational? you so funny!

The intent was not to be confrontational. the poster put forth that they regularly wrote about this subject. I was curious if they did this in an "official" capacity and was curious of where they were coming from.

they had already asked some pointed questions that not only upset several people but sounded like anti-nuke sentiments. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

I only asked out of curiosity and a wish to understand their position.

of course they can explain their position without giving their name.

so Dave Warren (if that is your real name) thanks for the coaching.
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jarod1977

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #16 on: Apr 14, 2011, 10:38 »
You guys or gals must have some pretty gravy jobs to be setting on here and talking nonsense and questioning other's intelligence. Must be nice!!

Offline Smart People

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #17 on: Apr 14, 2011, 10:46 »
You guys or gals must have some pretty gravy jobs to be setting on here and talking nonsense and questioning other's intelligence. Must be nice!!

It is. you should try it!! [chill] ROFL ROFL [whistle] [devious] [king]
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Cherenkov

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #18 on: Apr 14, 2011, 10:56 »
You guys or gals must have some pretty gravy jobs to be setting on here and talking nonsense and questioning other's intelligence. Must be nice!!

It is, but your jealousy is ugly.

-C

Offline Dave Warren

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #19 on: Apr 14, 2011, 11:27 »
You guys or gals must have some pretty gravy jobs to be setting on here and talking nonsense and questioning other's intelligence. Must be nice!!

I ran out of biscuits a long time ago, to sop up all this gravy.
The difference is, most of us have paid our dues.
I started in the 80's and alot of these guys started in the 70's when there were fewer regulations.

Quite honestly Jarod, you have the luxury of not knowing what we know about this industry.
If we were new in this gig, yeah we might be out busting our humps to make a buck.
But we are seasoned veterans and have the scars to prove it and we have earned the seat which resides under our ass.

So, you are correct in your assessment of gravy being our job description, but not any old fool could sit here and do what we do, day in and day out.

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #20 on: Apr 14, 2011, 11:53 »
Hey Dave all those mR's at Perry have fried your brain.

Oh by the way do you want a little cheese with that whine.

You're cool.


RealityCheck

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #21 on: Apr 14, 2011, 01:35 »
INES level 7...are you sure...wow, that"ll never happen again...all we have to do is learn from the past and make sure it never happens again, right.

Oh, you mean there was a plant in the Ukraine that had a level 7? So, let's do some really cool lessons learned stuff and declare victory and "it will never happen again."

If you are buying this line, then you probably believed the big "mission accomplished" sign George Bush had on the carrier after the second Iraq invasion.

You guys gotta start thinking outside the little nuclear power box...that naïveté went by the wayside years ago.

You can bet I will be banned from this forum posthaste...you guys need to read up on Black Swan events before you declare victory over bad things happening to good people.
« Last Edit: Apr 14, 2011, 01:39 by RealityCheck »

Cycoticpenguin

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #22 on: Apr 14, 2011, 01:53 »
INES level 7...are you sure...wow, that"ll never happen again...all we have to do is learn from the past and make sure it never happens again, right.

Oh, you mean there was a plant in the Ukraine that had a level 7? So, let's do some really cool lessons learned stuff and declare victory and "it will never happen again."

If you are buying this line, then you probably believed the big "mission accomplished" sign George Bush had on the carrier after the second Iraq invasion.

You guys gotta start thinking outside the little nuclear power box...that naïveté went by the wayside years ago.

You can bet I will be banned from this forum posthaste...you guys need to read up on Black Swan events before you declare victory over bad things happening to good people.


Did Greenpeace send you here? Or Mothers for Peace?  You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and Id suggest you do some research yourself. You're opening a huge can of worms here.... Your "naivete" is clearly evident. Why do you bother wasting yours, and whats ultimately worse, my time discussing things you know nothing about?

MacGyver

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #23 on: Apr 14, 2011, 02:00 »

You can bet I will be banned from this forum posthaste...you guys need to read up on Black Swan events before you declare victory over bad things happening to good people.

Which one:
1a. Black Swan Theory or 1b. Theory of Black Swan Events - {"rara avis in terris nigroque simillima cygno"}
2. black swan problem

And are you sure that is a good analogy?  I mean we do have the b.5.b (re: highly unlikely and/or impossible scenarios) for operators.  Therefore, it would not be "a rare bird in the lands, and very like a black swan."

As for being banned, well that would mean you deserved it.  As for your silly notions of our industry having its head in the sand, well of course that will not get you banned.  Just labeled a [dunce] "troll" and result in your getting bashed :trollbash: (because you seem to deserve it) or :notrolls: ignored.

Oh one other thing.  Your vanity is showing.

Offline Smart People

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Re: Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake
« Reply #24 on: Apr 14, 2011, 02:06 »
INES level 7...are you sure...wow, that"ll never happen again...all we have to do is learn from the past and make sure it never happens again, right.

Oh, you mean there was a plant in the Ukraine that had a level 7? So, let's do some really cool lessons learned stuff and declare victory and "it will never happen again."

one reactor in the Ukraine = level 7
four reactors combined in Japan = level 7

Yep... we're doomed

You can bet I will be banned from this forum posthaste...you guys need to read up on Black Swan events before you declare victory over bad things happening to good people.

You mean after two whole contrary posts you expect to be banned? Would that justify your existence?

Black Swan Event: first time I've heard of it, looked it up. Thanks!!
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