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Offline RDTroja

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Pointed questions for nuclear enthusiasts and careerists
« Reply #50 on: Apr 16, 2011, 07:25 »
Reply to rad-ghost:
My statement had 2 parts:

1) That at least some of the courageous workers who have been battling this thing for over 4 weeks now are likely to suffer severe health effects. There have been high level releases of gases and radioactive particles, levels have been poorly monitored and sometimes off the scale of the measuring equipment, there has been a shortage of dosimeters and some heroic emergency measures have been necessary. Do you think the workers will all be fine?

2) The spread of radiactive substances across the Northern Hemisphere and now showing up in food products in the US will have some consequences. I'm not claiming that everyone is going to die, just that you cannot deposit longlived isotopes into the environment without having some effects. The numbers may be small but they will happen. The nuclear industry gets away wth denying this by focusing on external doses and the shortlived nuclides, with the cynical knowledge that connecting any future cancer case with any specific radiation release will be almost impossible.

Very few serious answers to my questions so far...

Since anything deposited into the environment will have some consequences, your statements are correct. Whether those consequences are significant or not is yet to be determined. The amounts found to date are so far below levels of concern that they are truly insignificant and of no consequence. You also ignore that the amount of long-lived radioactive materials effectively removed from the environment (by not letting coal plants spew them out) is significant -- far more so than anything found outside of the immediate area of the event.

Yes, it is very bad in Japan, but did anyone notice that there was an earthquake and tsunami that killed more than ten thousand people? The added health effects of the nuclear plant problems will pale in comparison. The long term disruption of lives will be greater because of the nuclear plants, but not by enough to even compare to what nature did. Stop trying to sensationalize this just because the word nuclear is associated with it. You are degrading the real tragedy that stuck the area and KILLED THOUSANDS! Those people are gone, not just inconvenienced. Those families are destroyed and you are trying to make a story (and probably a profit of some sort) out of an issue that really is just scary because some people are trying to make it so. Will there be consequences? Yes, absolutely. Will there be some probability that some of the people DIRECTLY involved will suffer some health issues or maybe even die? Yes... a relatively few. Will anyone outside the area likely die because of this? Statistically that is doubtful, but not impossible. But, over 10,000 people are already dead and hundreds of thousands more are much more than inconvenienced by what happened there.

Take away perspective and make things sound just as scary as you like. I am more afraid of earthquakes, tsunamis and coal plants than I am of nuclear plants. Even melted ones.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 05:19 by Marlin »
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

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"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
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Offline Nuclear NASCAR

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« Reply #51 on: Apr 16, 2011, 09:12 »
[BS]   [pigfly]

The more I've gone back and read, I'm beginning to think you and realitycheck might just be the same person.

JM [2cents]

They're not the same person.  If they are they're getting a lot of frequent flyer miles.

Reply to rad-ghost:
My statement had 2 parts:

1) That at least some of the courageous workers who have been battling this thing for over 4 weeks now are likely to suffer severe health effects. There have been high level releases of gases and radioactive particles, levels have been poorly monitored and sometimes off the scale of the measuring equipment, there has been a shortage of dosimeters and some heroic emergency measures have been necessary. Do you think the workers will all be fine?

Initial answer as to how the workers will be?  I don't think that they will all be fine.  Now let me give you MY definition of fine.  Fine is healthy both mentally & physically.  I don't know how anyone could go through such an event and be fine.  

I'll make an assumption that my definition isn't what you were asking so vaguely.  Will they be without long-term health effects due to the exposure they've received?  I don't have the expertise to answer that one.  My gut instinct is that it's too early to know yet.  That's why you're not getting the answers you want.  (Well, that and the fact that you seem to have an agenda that becomes clearer with each post)  

The lessons learned at TMI & Chernobyl weren't learned within the first 5 weeks after the accidents.  Please keep this in mind while seeking & judging answers.


2) The spread of radiactive substances across the Northern Hemisphere and now showing up in food products in the US will have some consequences. I'm not claiming that everyone is going to die, just that you cannot deposit longlived isotopes into the environment without having some effects. The numbers may be small but they will happen. The nuclear industry gets away wth denying this by focusing on external doses and the shortlived nuclides, with the cynical knowledge that connecting any future cancer case with any specific radiation release will be almost impossible.

Very few serious answers to my questions so far...

Again, you're not getting the answers you seek so rather than accepting the collective intelligence that exists here you put down the answers.  

Here's the silent deal that comes with asking a question.  You ask something, we'll tell you the truth as well as we know it.  If we tell you the truth and you still don't like it, at that point it is no longer our problem.  

It's not too late to turn the dialogue around, where do you want to go from here?
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 05:20 by Marlin »
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge."

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bismuth-210

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« Reply #52 on: Apr 16, 2011, 11:35 »
i've been obsessively following the unfolding events in japan since 3/11, here on this public message board and other message boards. sadly the MSM doesn't want to cover this story.

before i only had a passing interest in nuclear power (i live in NYC so i've been following IP, Vermont Yankee and am old enough to remember shorehaven).  it's pretty darn cool, splitting atoms that is.  and i admire the macho-ness of nuke workers.  you guys are like fireman and navy pilots.  but, not every one can fly (and land) off of aircraft carriers or get launched into space.  

Yet, i find it astonishing that you folks continue to downplay obfuscate the unfolding events.  Yes, it is super technical and complex.

Please don't tell me about the earthquake and tsunami victims or that coal is indeed very bad. stick to the subject at hand, which is the 6 nuclear reactors and their SFPs.

Nothing ever invented by man is as deadly as nuclear power and their offspring nuclear weapons.  We are still learning the effects of radiation and increasingly experts (that is medical doctors, not physicists) are learning that even low levels of radiation are not safe.  in fact there is no safe level of radiation.

Plutone is asking some very good questions, a direct answer would be appreciated by this reader as well.  

just so you guys know, i am a in xray school (almost all medical nuclear medicine technologist are xray certified techs and this is a field that i am strongly considering training in), so i know a little bit about ionizing radiation.  Go ahead jump down my throat. call me a tree hugger.  after all, this is a public internet message board.
  



 
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 05:21 by Marlin »

Offline HydroDave63

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« Reply #53 on: Apr 17, 2011, 12:25 »
before i only had a passing interest in nuclear power (i live in NYC so i've been following IP, Vermont Yankee and am old enough to remember shorehaven).  

That must have been a long time ago, and inspired the naming of "Shoreham" years later  :-\


Nothing ever invented by man is as deadly as nuclear power and their offspring nuclear weapons.

Actually, cigarettes, communism, Islam and fried chicken have caused a LOT more premature deaths than Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and nuclear plant accidents combined. Further debate for just 11 cents a day in GoldMemberTM Forum !

just so you guys know, i am a in xray school (almost all medical nuclear medicine technologist are xray certified techs and this is a field that i am strongly considering training in), so i know a little bit about ionizing radiation.  Go ahead jump down my throat. call me a tree hugger.  after all, this is a public internet message board.

I find it astonishing that you want to obfuscate the terrible effects of manmade X-rays with some smoke and mirrors about therapeutic uses....after all, even Henri Roentgen's wife was killed by cancer caused by X-rays. in fact there is no safe level of X-rays  >:(  When will the carnage end?
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 05:21 by Marlin »

Offline RDTroja

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« Reply #54 on: Apr 17, 2011, 12:30 »
i've been obsessively following the unfolding events in japan since 3/11, here on this public message board and other message boards. sadly the MSM doesn't want to cover this story.

before i only had a passing interest in nuclear power (i live in NYC so i've been following IP, Vermont Yankee and am old enough to remember shorehaven).  it's pretty darn cool, splitting atoms that is.  and i admire the macho-ness of nuke workers.  you guys are like fireman and navy pilots.  but, not every one can fly (and land) off of aircraft carriers or get launched into space.  

Yet, i find it astonishing that you folks continue to downplay obfuscate the unfolding events.  Yes, it is super technical and complex.

Please don't tell me about the earthquake and tsunami victims or that coal is indeed very bad. stick to the subject at hand, which is the 6 nuclear reactors and their SFPs.

Nothing ever invented by man is as deadly as nuclear power and their offspring nuclear weapons.  We are still learning the effects of radiation and increasingly experts (that is medical doctors, not physicists) are learning that even low levels of radiation are not safe.  in fact there is no safe level of radiation.

Plutone is asking some very good questions, a direct answer would be appreciated by this reader as well.  

just so you guys know, i am a in xray school (almost all medical nuclear medicine technologist are xray certified techs and this is a field that i am strongly considering training in), so i know a little bit about ionizing radiation.  Go ahead jump down my throat. call me a tree hugger.  after all, this is a public internet message board.
  



 

Sorry, but that is just plain wrong on two levels.

First, everything is deadly. Breathing is deadly. Water is deadly. In fact, water is responsible for far more deaths each month than all the deaths nuclear power has caused in its history. Saying nothing invented by man is more deadly than nuclear power shows so a lot of ignorance. There are substances that man has invented that would require less than a teaspoonful to kill every human on the planet. Making unsubstantiated (and just plain false) claims like that puts the rest of your post into the 'who cares' category, but it gets worse.

Nuclear power did not beget nuclear bombs. Calling bombs the offspring of nuclear power shows even more ignorance. Like most other inventions, the military found a use for nuclear reactions first. If anything you could call the power plants the offspring of the bomb, but even that is such a stretch as to be laughable.

On top of all that, you need to learn some things about risk. Everything you do involves risks. Getting out of bed in the morning involves risks. Not getting up involves risks, too. Nothing in the world is pure good or pure evil. The only thing we can hope to do to make decisions for ourselves is to evaluate risk vs. reward and make choices about what risks we are willing to take to get what we want. Having nuclear power plants involves risks. Not having nuclear plants involves risks, too. In fact, even with the Japanese accident and the Chernobyl accident and the TMI accident, nuclear power plants have effectively REDUCED the amount of radioactive materials released into the environment over the time period the have been in use. Why? Because they have replaced a more significant source. Sorry you don't want to hear it, but there it is. Coal plants release more radioactive materials into the environment than nuclear plants, by orders of magnitude. You can't have a discussion about risk without including relative risk and risk/reward... it just makes no sense.

Dr. Bernard Cohen Professor Emeritus of Physics, at the University of Pittsburgh published a paper in the 1980s where he calculated that if we replaced all coal plants with nuclear plants and completely meted one down EVERY YEAR we would still have a net reduction in radioactive materials released to the environment. We have a long way to go before we get to that level.

Dr. Cohen would also disagree about the 'no level is safe' argument, but that is another matter.

I am sure you are very impressed with your credentials (in 'x-ray school,' whatever that is) but I think you are right in saying you know a little about it. There are a lot of people on this site that know much more than a little about it. I have taught radiation protection, including biological effects, for years and there are a lot of folks here that know far more than I do. The simple fact of the matter is that you really don't know what you are talking about.

Another point of disagreement is that Plutone is asking good questions. Good questions do not have built-in bias. Good questions do not guide the answer toward the outcome that the poser (yes, that has two meanings there) is looking for. Good questions are open to discussion and are not phrased to start arguments or put the respondent on the defensive. The questions he asked were negative, leading and indicated that he already knew what answer he was going to get and was ready to argue the point.

Not good questions, not good science, not good facts. Not worthy of a serious answer until those obstacle can be overcome.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 05:21 by Marlin »
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

bismuth-210

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« Reply #55 on: Apr 17, 2011, 12:39 »
maybe you guys need a refresher course !



it's all ball bearings nowadays .

stick to the subject fellas.  not coal.  nook power.

i never said there was a safe level of any ionizing radiation.

the amount of kool aid drinking is truly spectacular.  of course i would expect nothing less from folks that get paid by nuclear power plants.

nobody pays me for my views.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:47 by Marlin »

Offline roadhp

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« Reply #56 on: Apr 17, 2011, 12:42 »
Yet, i find it astonishing that you folks continue to downplay obfuscate the unfolding events.  Yes, it is super technical and complex.

Please don't tell me about the earthquake and tsunami victims or that coal is indeed very bad. stick to the subject at hand, which is the 6 nuclear reactors and their SFPs.

Nothing ever invented by man is as deadly as nuclear power and their offspring nuclear weapons.  We are still learning the effects of radiation and increasingly experts (that is medical doctors, not physicists) are learning that even low levels of radiation are not safe.  in fact there is no safe level of radiation.

Plutone is asking some very good questions, a direct answer would be appreciated by this reader as well.  

just so you guys know, i am a in xray school (almost all medical nuclear medicine technologist are xray certified techs and this is a field that i am strongly considering training in), so i know a little bit about ionizing radiation.  Go ahead jump down my throat. call me a tree hugger.  after all, this is a public internet message board.

It is hard to talk about nuclear power and just compare it to nuclear power (BTW, nuclear power is the offshoot of nuclear weapons).  Yes, it is sometimes talking about apples and oranges, but to continue the metaphor, not talking about other types of incidents is like saying that an apple isn't a fruit.  To continue the statment, there are things just as dangerous as nuclear power and the possible accidents that go hand in hand, and again you have to include them or the discussion is just about nuclear power and is moot.  Take for example chemical plants.  Are they safer than nuclear power plants?  Tell that to the people in Bhopal, India.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster

An yet there are chemical plants in every major city in the US and the rest of the industrialized world.  Yes, in our world there is no safe level of radiation, which is why we practice ALARA, As Low As Rasonably Achievable.  But as we said when I was in the Navy, the risks are low "when compared to risks normally accepted in everyday life".  As you will, or have learned in X-ray school, I hope, radiation is all around us, even inside us, at levels that are measurable.  The amount of radiation I get working the outages is in most years less than that of a commercial airline pilot or a person living in Denver, which BTW I have lived there.  Do I have a fear of cancer,  No, but a healthy respect of the risks of developing cancer from radiation just like every other risk of cancer such as eating sacharin (sp) or sunbathing, which I don't do.

As far as the questions go, the accident is still an accident and will have to be controlled just like any other accident, with deliberation.  The units not in danger will probably be restarted just from an economic and demand point of view, but only after upgrades to ensure an accident of this magnitude (earthquake and tsunami) will be controlled.  To not start them up again will be catastrophic for the regional community, since replacing the 4 damaged units will take some time, and Japan doesn't have the ability to import more oil or natural gas for a new fossil plant, or the 10-15 it would take to recover the capacity of those nuclear power plants.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:47 by Marlin »
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Offline Radwasted

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« Reply #57 on: Apr 17, 2011, 01:39 »
maybe you guys need a refresher course !



it's all ball bearings nowadays .

stick to the subject fellas.  not coal.  nook power.

i never said there was a safe level of any ionizing radiation.

the amount of kool aid drinking is truly spectacular.  of course i would expect nothing less from folks that get paid by nuclear power plants.

nobody pays me for my views.
     [spank]


Well the folks here that get paid by nuclear power plants would without hesitation risk their lives to protect you or any other citizen of this country from nuclear disaster.

« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:47 by Marlin »
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Offline RDTroja

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« Reply #58 on: Apr 17, 2011, 02:16 »
maybe you guys need a refresher course !



it's all ball bearings nowadays .

stick to the subject fellas.  not coal.  nook power.

i never said there was a safe level of any ionizing radiation.

the amount of kool aid drinking is truly spectacular.  of course i would expect nothing less from folks that get paid by nuclear power plants.

nobody pays me for my views.

Nobody pays me for mine, either. If they shut all of the nuclear plants down tomorrow, I would do just fine. I would probably make more than I am now and it would carry me well into retirement, so why would I say anything I didn't believe? It would make more sense for me to bad mouth nukes than to tell the truth. But thanks for the slam, we all appreciate it. You come in here and insult our integrity and expect us to fall in line behind your ignorance? Try again.

We don't need any refresher courses you have to offer, particularly from someone with no experience and less knowledge. If you can't get the idea that the only way to assess risk is by comparison, then you you are the one in need of an education. You are only part right when you say this is about nuclear power. It is about a lot more than that. Are nukes 100% safe. Hell no. Nothing is. Is anyone going to die because of what is going on in Fukushima? NOBODY KNOWS THAT YET. Can we get any clearer on that? All we can do is make guesses based on information gained from what we do know about radiation and biological effects. The big problem with that is there is no way to construct any kind of legitimate study on low level effects, since there is no such thing as 'none.' There is no base line data. If you knew anything about experimental design you would understand this. Nobody has ever, or probably will ever, be able to come to any valid scientific answer to the 'How much is dangerous and how dangerous is it at low levels' questions. There is no way to set up the test because there is no control group.

The only thing we can do is take the risks that are reasonable. In order to do that, we need to compare. That is all there is to it. If you don't get it, you never will. But keep up that education you claim to be getting. Someday it may sink in. Nukes are safer than our alternatives for providing Baseload generation. Living at the gate of a nuclear plant is safer than living within 100 miles of a coal burner. Or a chemical plant. Or on the ocean, in the mountains, near any mine or landfill, or even near the Mississippi River. It is safer than driving a car, smoking, drinking alcohol (or even water, for that matter.) Yes the discussion is about nuclear power, but if the discussion was about cars at the beginning of the 20th century and you couldn't talk about horses, the conversation would be useless. If you talk about the stupidity of one political party and you can't put it in the context of the other party's policy the conversation goes nowhere and is simply an exercise in bashing the opponent without providing an alternative... also useless or worse. If you want to talk about how bad something is you have to answer the question 'Compared to what?' or its just verbal masturbation.

Maybe that is what you are after.

If you don't understand, then just go ahead and make a fool out of yourself and ask the same question again. Someone else will try to explain and you still won't get it. Or, maybe you will get tired of being a Troll and just give up. But I doubt that.

BTW, that kool ade drinking cliche is about as last-century as it gets. Can't anybody come up with something original?
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:48 by Marlin »
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

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« Reply #59 on: Apr 17, 2011, 07:16 »
Well, I haven't visited this forum in awhile and it's fun to see that I was able to stir up large Olympic sized bowls of crap with one arm tied behind my back.

I am neither pro-nuke or anti-nuke. I am as amused by baby-nukes who suffer from LOKA's (Loss of Knowledge Accidents) as I am by the Anti-nuke advocates who don't know the difference between a barn and a shed (I am sure most of you would also have trouble differentiating between a barn and a shed, but for the intellectually curious think "thermal neutron absorption cross-section").

A little edification for those wanting me to hold your beer.... "A Black Swan Event has nothing to do with the movie of the same title".  To think that we can keep future Black Swan Events from occurring simply as a function of learning from previous events is the height of intellectual arrogance.  And yes, there is a direct correlation between knowledge and arrogance. I am admittedly the poster child for this corollary.

I encourage you all to actually read something for the purpose of insight rather than wasting too much of your valuable time engaging in trivial pursuit with a nuclear bent. Learn how the highly improbable events that are increasingly occurring in our increasingly complex world will continue to change the course of history and the only thing we can actually do is sit back and watch. Learn to think outside the little nuclear box that we have carefully constructed in a vain attempt to assure the world that we know what we are doing.

By the way, the IP looks like NYC...I will come back in a week or two to ensure the pot was sufficiently stirred.  I hope that at least one of you grows a brain cell between now and then.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:48 by Marlin »

Offline namlive

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« Reply #60 on: Apr 17, 2011, 07:27 »
Yes, nuclear power is safer than the earth crashing into the sun and produces far less radiation. But we can't control natural disasters, but we can control nuclear power. So all we have to do is to find something in nature that is worse, such as an earthquake or tsunami and that will justify cyanide and arsenic in our drinking water because it is natural. Now Roger, I know you are a good stewart of the nuclear industry, but you look really bad in a cheerleader outfit.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:49 by Marlin »
No one gets out alive.

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« Reply #61 on: Apr 17, 2011, 07:56 »
Good morning:

ok, it seems that you guys cleared up my thinking.  thanks to the ministry of re-education and ministry of truth.

i got it now, due to my small IQ, I will never be able to comprehend and asses the risks of nuclear power generation, so I will just leave that to the politicians and the business leaders.  they have our best interests and safety at heart.

« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:49 by Marlin »

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« Reply #62 on: Apr 17, 2011, 09:09 »
Good morning:ok, it seems that you guys cleared up my thinking.  thanks to the ministry of re-education and ministry of truth.i got it now, due to my small IQ, I will never be able to comprehend and asses the risks of nuclear power generation, so I will just leave that to the politicians and the business leaders.  they have our best interests and safety at heart.
He gave a well worded response that answered your ignorant statement. Nobody said that you aren't capable of understanding the issue, but most in the general public are not knowledgeable of this topic. I don't think any answer would have worked for you because your mind is made up.
 The Mothers For Peace group might let you spread the ignorance with them and are far more likely to entertain your beliefs. Maybe they will let you preach your objective.

You were right about one thing though.....
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:49 by Marlin »

Offline Marlin

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« Reply #63 on: Apr 17, 2011, 09:47 »
ok, it seems that you guys cleared up my thinking.  thanks to the ministry of re-education and ministry of truth.
 

Well, I haven't visited this forum in awhile and it's fun to see that I was able to stir up large Olympic sized bowls of crap with one arm tied behind my back.

Very few serious answers to my questions so far...

All the same psuedo intellectual???  :notrolls:
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:50 by Marlin »

Offline hamsamich

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« Reply #64 on: Apr 17, 2011, 11:07 »
"Nothing ever invented by man is as deadly as nuclear power and their offspring nuclear weapons.  We are still learning the effects of radiation and increasingly experts (that is medical doctors, not physicists) are learning that even low levels of radiation are not safe.  in fact there is no safe level of radiation."

Nuclear Power was not invented by man.  Natural nuclear reactors operated all over the world billions of years ago.  Look it up.  And natural background radioactivity is here now and will always be here.  So if there is truly no safe level of radiation how can we inhabit this planet?

If you have a beef with nuclear power put up some kind of argument that isn't BS.  There is plenty of stuff out there that isn't BS that is wrong with nuclear power.  The reason you are getting so much backlash here isn't because you attacked nuclear power, it is because no one respects your posts because they are flatout wrong.  Get your facts straight on the subject before you post on a board comprised of people that have been working in this business for many years.  If not, stop cluttering up this board with crap.

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« Reply #65 on: Apr 17, 2011, 11:30 »
I sure hope these individuals don't sign up for a Gold Membership to see that we really say about them...... [RTFM]

Maybe we should institute a Fitness for Stupidiy Program..... ;)


RG!  




« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:51 by Marlin »

Offline Brett LaVigne

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« Reply #66 on: Apr 17, 2011, 01:49 »
maybe you guys need a refresher course !



it's all ball bearings nowadays .

stick to the subject fellas.  not coal.  nook power.

i never said there was a safe level of any ionizing radiation.

the amount of kool aid drinking is truly spectacular.  of course i would expect nothing less from folks that get paid by nuclear power plants.

nobody pays me for my views.

This is exactally the BS responses I was getting after trying to help non-nuke types understand what to be worried about and what not to be worried about. Paid to lie for the industry...unreal!

Many of us on here are Rad Protection types. We aren't paid to lie for the industry, we are paid to keep the industry honest and safe. If you don't like the answers you are getting from industry experts, tough. You are getting the truth based on what we know about the science. If it isn't as gloomy as you would like it to be, go watch CNN, they will be happy to scare the crap out of you some more with misinformation. CNN, FOX and the other mainstream outlets are gonna be so pissed when nobody in Tokyo dies from this accident! In fact, I don't see near the coverage on CNN that was going on a couple of weeks ago. I guess they are already having to switch to other news since this news isn't creating mass graves of people who died from ARS like they thought it would.

If someone is saying that nuclear power is the most dangerous...I think the word was actually deadly...way to make power (Paraphrased, read that in one of the posts, not sure the author and don't really care), then we must talk about the other ways of making power and compare them with the subject at hand, nukes. Currently, reliable power production comes with a level of risk. When all of the info is looked at objectively, there are no other conclusions that can be reached other than nuclear being just as safe (much safer actually) than fossil generation. When you look at things like acid rain, radioactive releases from fossil plants, mining accidents, oil rig explosions, huge oil spills etc., nuclear power doesn't hold a candle. Even considering Chernobyl and now Fukushima, on a global scale nothing has killed more people and screwed the environment like using fossil fuels to make power. To me, they don't even deserve to be in the same conversation when talking about risk. But there is this "magical" thing with nuclear power that the general public doesn't understand and for some reason, they generally don't want to understand. People are driven by fear and even if that fear should be put to rest with scientifically based reason and historical data from past accidents, it seems to do nothing to change any minds.

So if you don't like the answers, then just keep believing that nuclear is ultra evil and leave those of us that know the difference alone. It becomes a giant waste of our time to try to convince otherwise. I am a ANSI qualified Rad Protection Supervisor with over 21 years in the industry. I take the responsibility of my job very seriously like the others in my field. To be accused as a paid liar for the industry is highly offensive. We are exactally the opposite of what you imply and the remarks are shamefull. When you come into a conversation with questions, but already have your mind made up on what the answers should be and are unwilling to consider the answers from the experts...then there is just no help for you. Why even participate in the conversation?
Good luck...I will continue to sleep soundly, knowing that what I do for a living helps protect even the lowest denominators of the public from the dangers of ionizing radiation.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:51 by Marlin »
I Heart Hippie Chicks!!!

plutone

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« Reply #67 on: Apr 17, 2011, 02:27 »
Some pretty wild statements being made here on both sides of the discussion, IMO.

Yes, I have a point of view like everyone else, it is derived from studying the issue and listening to both sides. My questions are serious and are asked mainly because I am interested in the serious answers.

The poster who reminded us that at least 10,000 people have already died from non-nuclear causes brings a valuable perspective.

Yet there are studies now being released that suggest there will be 200,000 long term fatalities from early cancer onset due to this accident. This is based on the radiation spilled so far and the experiences at Chernobyl.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:52 by Marlin »

Offline Brett LaVigne

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« Reply #68 on: Apr 17, 2011, 02:55 »
Some pretty wild statements being made here on both sides of the discussion, IMO.


"IMO", that is the problem! You have a deeply rooted opinion on the matter with no real foundation. You dismiss the opinions of the folks that have a very deep understanding of radiological issues. I think that is what is making the group smite the heck out of you for your posts. You keep saying that you haven't got serious answers to your questions. I think you haven't got answers that line up with your pre-determined opinions...those are two different things. Your questions have been answered by people who live and breath within the industry. When was the last time you have seen actual Plutonium, Americium, Caesium, Strontium? Many of us handle these things every day and have built careers on knowing how to protect people from them...But then again, what we say holds no water...sigh...You should just direct your questions to Anderson Cooper, I think he has the answers you look for.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:52 by Marlin »
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drayer54

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« Reply #69 on: Apr 17, 2011, 03:15 »
Some pretty wild statements being made here on both sides of the discussion, IMO.

Yes, I have a point of view like everyone else, it is derived from studying the issue and listening to both sides. My questions are serious and are asked mainly because I am interested in the serious answers.

The poster who reminded us that at least 10,000 people have already died from non-nuclear causes brings a valuable perspective.

Yet there are studies now being released that suggest there will be 200,000 long term fatalities from early cancer onset due to this accident. This is based on the radiation spilled so far and the experiences at Chernobyl.
Here on NW, when we reference a study to make our point, we provide a link or name and source to it.  [spam]

IMO, you already have your mind made up and enjoy preaching to people who don't seem to be too interested in what you are selling.... [spam]

« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:53 by Marlin »

Offline roadhp

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« Reply #70 on: Apr 17, 2011, 04:35 »
Yet there are studies now being released that suggest there will be 200,000 long term fatalities from early cancer onset due to this accident. This is based on the radiation spilled so far and the experiences at Chernobyl.

The only references I have seen online to studies have quoted Greenpeace who quoted another scientist who quoted still other unnamed scientists who said this, but it is interesting that this number, "200,000", is the same number they gave to the "estimated" (but never proven in any shape or form) deaths from radiation from Chernobyl.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:54 by Marlin »
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Offline RDTroja

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« Reply #71 on: Apr 17, 2011, 04:53 »
Yes, nuclear power is safer than the earth crashing into the sun and produces far less radiation. But we can't control natural disasters, but we can control nuclear power. So all we have to do is to find something in nature that is worse, such as an earthquake or tsunami and that will justify cyanide and arsenic in our drinking water because it is natural. Now Roger, I know you are a good stewart of the nuclear industry, but you look really bad in a cheerleader outfit.

You are a troll, but at least you know you are a troll and you like being a troll. Had I talked about earthquakes, tsunamis or other natural disasters in the wake of Chernobyl, you would have a point. Now the only point you have is covered by your hat. The relevance of tsunamis and earthquakes to this disaster is, I hope, clear even to you. But, I do thank you for supporting my point. A good deal of the cyanide and arsenic in our drinking water comes from the use of coal to generate electricity, and no it is not good and there are plenty of other 'natural' things that aren't. I expected just slightly better of you than to use DaveWarren tactics to try to make your weak points look stronger.  I also gave you a little more literacy credit than I should have. I am not a 'stewart' of anything... I don't even have any Scottish blood in me (it's Irish.) If you want to make me a 'steward' of nuclear power, in the truest sense you are correct. I do my best to try to manage my part of the nuclear world. It is, after all, what I am paid to do.

You did get one point correct. I would look terrible in a cheerleader outfit. Almost as bad as you looked trying to be a Goth.
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:54 by Marlin »
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

Offline Marlin

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« Reply #72 on: Apr 17, 2011, 07:02 »
A good deal of the cyanide and arsenic in our drinking water comes from the use of coal to generate electricity, and no it is not good and there are plenty of other 'natural' things that aren't.

Don't forget mercury and the rest of the heavy metals in ocean fish.

I still support fossil fuels and the EPA. It's easy to forget the soupy morass that was our air and streams at one time with rivers colored from chemical discharges, one even on fire. We woke up and overcame it, now we continue to improve. This applies to power plants as well, we will and have gotten better. The plants in question are much older designs which would not be licensed today as new construction.

*******************************************************

•About 90 percent of nonmelanoma skin cancers are associated with exposure to ultraviolet (UV) radiation from the sun.

•One person dies of melanoma every hour (every 62 minutes).


http://www.skincancer.org/Skin-Cancer-Facts/#aging


Maybe our trolls would like to shutdown the big reactor or legislate the use of SPF 1000 to protect society. Don't forget to ban cheap sunglasses they open the iris but do not block the UV that enters the eye at a higher dose.

Let's not forget the man who built a solar home to avoid using nuclear power generated electricity and found his home had radon levels that exceeded the annual allowable dose for a radiation worker.

What about the Radon spas in caves that claim to be medically beneficial that the government has not shut down?


The list goes on but all the trolls want to hear is that we are all a bunch of Homer Simpsons without a clue.

The struggle continues.    [BH] [BH] [BH] [BH] [BH] [BH]
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:56 by Marlin »

bismuth-210

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« Reply #73 on: Apr 17, 2011, 08:21 »
i don't recall ever asking any questions.  just supporting plutone's view and request for serious answers.

i am neither pro nor anti nuke.  just pro clean/sustainable energy.  if that ever exists.  Germany certainly is taking an initiative and their populace is active regarding shaping their future.

has anyone ever come up with a viable plan to store nuclear waste ?  save me, yucca mtn or dry cask storage.  i think that is a proper and serious question.

re: nuclear being deadly or the most dangerous.  let me clarify.  nothing ever invented by man is capable of that much destruction (the bomb).  and radioactive isotopes have the capability to render land uninhabitable for tens of thousands of years.  

to operate nuclear power generating plants without a clue as how to contain them in the event of bad stuff happening is astonishing.  see fukushima.  all that happened was the power was turned off for a day or so.  is that outlandish to think that way ?  please correct my fallacy in thinking.
  
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:56 by Marlin »

bismuth-210

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« Reply #74 on: Apr 17, 2011, 08:32 »
do you guys discredit this man ?  -->



arnie gundersen
« Last Edit: Apr 18, 2011, 04:56 by Marlin »

 


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