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Offline Nuclear NASCAR

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #50 on: Jun 29, 2011, 11:24 »
http://www.sandia.gov/

Love me some google.   :P
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge."

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Offline Starkist

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #51 on: Jun 29, 2011, 11:52 »
http://www.sandia.gov/

Love me some google.   :P

lol no I got that, but its not opening up for me for some reason (403: Invalid configuration??? new one for me...). Ill try it tomorrow I suppose :p.


RAD-GHOST

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #52 on: Jun 30, 2011, 05:02 »
Ok I did my look up. What in the world is "Sandia"? lol Looks like an engineering firm, but I cant open their page for some reason.

Good Question... :)

It's a very special place, full of very special people, doing very special things!

I know this, because they told me so!

RG.... ;D

Offline Starkist

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #53 on: Jun 30, 2011, 08:53 »
Good Question... :)

It's a very special place, full of very special people, doing very special things!

I know this, because they told me so!

RG.... ;D


lol, Im assuming you work there then?

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #54 on: Jun 30, 2011, 09:25 »

lol, Im assuming you work there then?

You know what happens when you as-sume...  :P

Offline Starkist

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #55 on: Jun 30, 2011, 09:56 »
You know what happens when you as-sume...  :P


Yeah yeah :p



Offline Starkist

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #56 on: Jul 07, 2011, 06:33 »
New question... More of a "industry wide" question...

Looking at reports, and vermont yankee being the predominant offender here, how exactly does tritium leak out of the plant. Im not understanding how it can happen. The only thing slightly possible I could understand is a leak from RPCCW into service water, but RPCCW is at a lower pressure, at least at my plant.



Also, following that up, cesium, strontium, and yttrium being found offsite. those are fission products, wouldnt that be indicative of a fuel element failure? O.o I understand the fuel defects having uranium outside the cladding, but is that enough to allow a measurable amount of radiation leakage outside of the plant? Or is this merely fear mongering by the media?



Offline GLW

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #58 on: Jul 07, 2011, 07:07 »
New question... More of a "industry wide" question...

Looking at reports, and vermont yankee being the predominant offender here, how exactly does tritium leak out of the plant. Im not understanding how it can happen. The only thing slightly possible I could understand is a leak from RPCCW into service water, but RPCCW is at a lower pressure, at least at my plant.



Also, following that up, cesium, strontium, and yttrium being found offsite. those are fission products, wouldnt that be indicative of a fuel element failure? O.o I understand the fuel defects having uranium outside the cladding, but is that enough to allow a measurable amount of radiation leakage outside of the plant? Or is this merely fear mongering by the media?



check your PM's,....

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline Starkist

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #59 on: Jul 07, 2011, 07:21 »
check your PM's,....

cheers! :) explains a LOT!

Food for thought...

http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML1012/ML101270439.pdf

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operating/ops-experience/tritium/sites-grndwtr-contam.html

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/buried-pipes-fs.html

I appreciate you taking the time to find me those, but Im really asking HOW they are leaking. I dont understand what underground piping systems are carrying primary water, as all of ours are located within primary or secondary containments, closely monitored systems, etc etc.

I think I just had a "eureka" moment... our discharge piping is underground... HOWEVER, before it even begins to leave the site, its measured for contamination/radiation content.
Am I on the right track here? :p

Pman52

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #60 on: Jul 07, 2011, 07:32 »
I appreciate you taking the time to find me those, but Im really asking HOW they are leaking. I dont understand what underground piping systems are carrying primary water, as all of ours are located within primary or secondary containments, closely monitored systems, etc etc.

Did you miss the "controlled releases" ?

or

Quote from: NRC

As a result of one or more of the causes listed below, radioactive materials (most notably tritium) have been identified in ground moisture or ground water at several commercial nuclear power plants:

system leaks (e.g., pipes, valves, tanks)
evaporation of liquids
condensation of vapors
as the result of routine, approved releases


???  


Now YOU have to consult your plants P&ID's for the REAL answers.   ;)
« Last Edit: Jul 07, 2011, 07:35 by Pman52 »

Offline Starkist

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #61 on: Jul 07, 2011, 08:14 »
Did you miss the "controlled releases" ?


Lol no, I just dont understand how we have radioactive water in buried pipes under the ground, and didnt think to check on them from time to time.

AFAIK, the only potential system we have is discharge, I just need someone to validate my thoughts :p Im all about doing my own research, Im just not sure how yet. PID's wont exactly tell me where leaks are :p


I would like to point out to some of those who are supposedly "ignorning me" that I do not have an SRO license, I have zero experience in a commercial plant, and I have very very little information searching ability. Thanks :)



« Last Edit: Jul 07, 2011, 08:18 by Starkist »

Pman52

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #62 on: Jul 07, 2011, 08:27 »
PID's wont exactly tell me where leaks are :p


Man Charlie...you just HAVE TO HAVE THE ANSWER GIVEN TO YOU!!  :P

P&IDs obviously won't SHOW YOU WHERE LEAKS OCCUR.  But they will show you drains and associated piping routes that could potentially corrode and create leaks (imagine that!), or elude to paths where leaks could occur.  I don't think anyone KNOWS exactly where the leak occurs, but I'm sure they have ideas and well thought out solutions to the issues at hand (ie. tritium leaks).  P&ID's are useful by showing where piping is located.  Further research could lead to an understanding where underground connections or interconnected systems could lead to potential leaking.

I thought "OPERATORS" were supposed to learn their plant?!   ;)

Nuclear Renaissance

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #63 on: Jul 07, 2011, 08:43 »
how exactly does tritium leak out of the plant

Check your CST. Isn't it outside? Ever wonder how the water gets to/from the reactor from there?

Offline Starkist

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #64 on: Jul 07, 2011, 08:48 »
Man Charlie...you just HAVE TO HAVE THE ANSWER GIVEN TO YOU!!  :P

P&IDs obviously won't SHOW YOU WHERE LEAKS OCCUR.  But they will show you drains and associated piping routes that could potentially corrode and create leaks (imagine that!), or elude to paths where leaks could occur.  I don't think anyone KNOWS exactly where the leak occurs, but I'm sure they have ideas and well thought out solutions to the issues at hand (ie. tritium leaks).  P&ID's are useful by showing where piping is located.  Further research could lead to an understanding where underground connections or interconnected systems could lead to potential leaking.

I thought "OPERATORS" were supposed to learn their plant?!   ;)

Hardy har. Well my plant isnt leaking tritium is partly my point. I dont have access to vermont yankee's PID's and all online information is super vague, even from the NRC.

No disrespect intended, but you have even less experience then I do. Ill take lecturing when applicable, but you really arent answering my questions. Please dont get smug because a bitter SRO is giving you positive karma for "showing me up". Im willing to do my own research, but I dont think you understand how many control systems and automatic functions we have to PREVENT inadvertent leakage yet. I truly appreciate your assistance, but its not answering my question.

And yes, "OPERATORS" DO learn their plant. You will find that out when you get hired as one.


Check your CST. Isn't it outside? Ever wonder how the water gets to/from the reactor from there?

Lemme rephrase this to a more direct question. What system did vermont yankee have those large tritium leaks from? Besides, CST is covered on rounds, and ours has a drywell around it.... O.o
« Last Edit: Jul 08, 2011, 01:54 by Starkist »

Nuclear Renaissance

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #65 on: Jul 08, 2011, 04:55 »
Lemme rephrase this to a more direct question. What system did vermont yankee have those large tritium leaks from? Besides, CST is covered on rounds, and ours has a drywell around it.... O.o

The Condensate Storage Tank (an outside tank) communicate with the reactor primary system by buried piping, aka the Condensate Transfer System. Your plant has this, and so does Vermont Yankee. This is how tritiated water gets into the groundwater via leaks. "Covering it on rounds" is not going to reveal this - your environmental ground well monitoring is about the only way, unless it is a large leak that radwaste processing balances can reveal. It is not a Tech Spec system and therefore has been neglected on monitoring/upkeep in the past.

Offline Neutron_Herder

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #66 on: Jul 08, 2011, 07:21 »
From what I remember reading the leak was from some drain lines off of the Offgas system.  The drains sprung a leak, and the floor drain in the Offgas tunnel was clogged.  This allowed the water level to rise a little in the tunnel until it found a way out of the tunnel and into the surrounding soil.
"If everybody's thinking alike, somebody isn't thinking" - Gen. George S. Patton

Fermi2

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #67 on: Jul 08, 2011, 03:25 »
The Condensate Storage Tank (an outside tank) communicate with the reactor primary system by buried piping, aka the Condensate Transfer System. Your plant has this, and so does Vermont Yankee. This is how tritiated water gets into the groundwater via leaks. "Covering it on rounds" is not going to reveal this - your environmental ground well monitoring is about the only way, unless it is a large leak that radwaste processing balances can reveal. It is not a Tech Spec system and therefore has been neglected on monitoring/upkeep in the past.


Au Contraire. The CST and Underground piping is TS Equipment subject to inspection. It's required to support HPCI and RCIC. TS 3.5.1 and 3.5.3.

In most cases it's leaking Rad Waste Release Piping.

Some plants built new Off Gas Systems in the late 80s, early 90s and didn't do a great job of determining the right type of building to put them in.
« Last Edit: Jul 08, 2011, 03:35 by Broadzilla »

Nuclear Renaissance

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #68 on: Jul 08, 2011, 04:07 »

Au Contraire. The CST and Underground piping is TS Equipment subject to inspection. It's required to support HPCI and RCIC. TS 3.5.1 and 3.5.3.


Incorrect. Straight from the Emergency Core Cooling System Tech Spec Bases:

"Although no credit is taken in the safety analyses for the condensate storage tank (CST), it is
capable of providing a source of water for HPCI and RCIC"

The suppression pool is the credited source, which it why the instrumentmation to swap the suction to the suppression pool at low CST level or high suppression pool level are the only Tech Spec required components.

Offline Starkist

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #69 on: Jul 08, 2011, 04:22 »
Incorrect. Straight from the Emergency Core Cooling System Tech Spec Bases:

"Although no credit is taken in the safety analyses for the condensate storage tank (CST), it is
capable of providing a source of water for HPCI and RCIC"

The suppression pool is the credited source, which it why the instrumentmation to swap the suction to the suppression pool at low CST level or high suppression pool level are the only Tech Spec required components.

Thats odd, at my plant the CST is the primary suction source for RCIC.


Nuclear Renaissance

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #70 on: Jul 08, 2011, 04:27 »
Thats odd, at my plant the CST is the primary suction source for RCIC.


It is also for HPCI, but that doesn't make it the Tech Spec required source.

Fermi2

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #71 on: Jul 08, 2011, 04:35 »
Incorrect. Straight from the Emergency Core Cooling System Tech Spec Bases:

"Although no credit is taken in the safety analyses for the condensate storage tank (CST), it is
capable of providing a source of water for HPCI and RCIC"

The suppression pool is the credited source, which it why the instrumentmation to swap the suction to the suppression pool at low CST level or high suppression pool level are the only Tech Spec required components.


Sigh. FRigging NUBS:

The ECCS pumps are provided with minimum flow bypass lines, which
discharge to the suppression pool. The valves in these lines
automatically open to prevent pump damage due to overheating when
other discharge line valves are closed. To ensure rapid delivery of water
to the RPV and to minimize water hammer effects, all ECCS pump
discharge lines are filled with water. The LPCI and CS System discharge
lines are kept full of water using a "keep fill" system (jockey pump
system). The HPCI System is normally aligned to the CST. The height of
water in the CST is sufficient to maintain the piping full of water up to the
first isolation valve. The relative height of the feedwater line connection
for HPCI is such that the water in the feedwater lines keeps the remaining
portion of the HPCI discharge line


TS Required system.

Nuclear Renaissance

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #72 on: Jul 08, 2011, 04:42 »

Sigh. FRigging NUBS:

The ECCS pumps are provided with minimum flow bypass lines, which
discharge to the suppression pool. The valves in these lines
automatically open to prevent pump damage due to overheating when
other discharge line valves are closed. To ensure rapid delivery of water
to the RPV and to minimize water hammer effects, all ECCS pump
discharge lines are filled with water. The LPCI and CS System discharge
lines are kept full of water using a "keep fill" system (jockey pump
system). The HPCI System is normally aligned to the CST. The height of
water in the CST is sufficient to maintain the piping full of water up to the
first isolation valve. The relative height of the feedwater line connection
for HPCI is such that the water in the feedwater lines keeps the remaining
portion of the HPCI discharge line


TS Required system.

You can lose that source from the CST to HPCI, and as long as you put HPCI on the suppression pool it is operable. It does not work the other way around. When in all your experience have you ever declared a CST "inop"? CST is not required for HPCI or RCIC operability.
« Last Edit: Jul 08, 2011, 04:48 by Nuclear Renaissance »

Fermi2

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #73 on: Jul 08, 2011, 04:49 »
Incorrect. Are you familiar with the concept of a TS required SUPPORT System?

Twice in fact. When HPCI swapped to the suppression pool due to an instrument failure and we declared it inoperable due to loss of the CST as a TS required SUPPORT function. Both times backed up absolutely correct by Licensing.

Browns Ferry did it too about 2.5 years ago.

When have you ever been in a position where you had to MAKE that decision?


You might also reference 3.5.2 where the CST is a TS Required SOURCE for OPDRVs.

Frigging NUBs.

Offline Starkist

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Re: BWR questions
« Reply #74 on: Jul 08, 2011, 04:54 »
It is also for HPCI, but that doesn't make it the Tech Spec required source.

Not here, our HPCS is normally aligned to our suppression pool, not the CST. Upon low level, it cycles to CST automatically. RCIC here is the opposite.

Im also confused, LPCS and LPCI are two different systems at my plant. O.o
« Last Edit: Jul 08, 2011, 04:55 by Starkist »

 


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