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Offline DockeTT

Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #25 on: Jun 23, 2011, 09:58 »
I think the warfare qual thing can be a different experience for everyone depending on the command in place when your doing it.  On my boat qualifying subs was fairly rigorous.  The cone would hammer us on checkouts.  We also had to do a preboard that you had to pass to be able to do your actual board.  I think my preboard lasted 3+ hours and I had to draw 9 or 10 system drawings...  And if you didn't know where every last fire extinguisher on the boat was and what type it was you weren't qualifying no matter how smart you are..

yayarea

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #26 on: Jun 23, 2011, 12:23 »
Well, I didn't say it was common, but it is doable. I had a LELT that was on a nuke cruiser, then a GW class boomer, then the Enterprise, the a 688 class submarine. So..., like I said, anything is possible.

I also served with one JO on the boat who started his life out as an enlisted guy on a carrier. He got picked up for LDO and worked ship yards. He road our boat for a while..., so he had all three.

Nuke cruiser!? I was under the impression that Nucs only served on carriers and subs! Wow, my research is seriously lacking. But anyways, might you have any idea how was the LELT able to flip flop back and forth like that? Do sailors regularly go back and forth between sub and surface?

It took me 2 weeks to get my qual cards filled out and about a month before I was able to do my board. Meanwhile, I was running a workcenter and getting ready for MTT's. So be it. Stupid warfare pin was useless to me other then a right to sleep.

Nubs qualed warfare were allowed in berthing. What are you thoughts on that?

Two weeks to fill out cards and a month to do board? To qualify subs? I'm really lost right now. I mean, I know of the whole process submariners go through to get their pins, but don't you have months to qualify?

Offline Higgs

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #27 on: Jun 23, 2011, 12:25 »
Nuke cruiser!? I was under the impression that Nucs only served on carriers and subs! Wow, my research is seriously lacking. But anyways, might you have any idea how was the LELT able to flip flop back and forth like that? Do sailors regularly go back and forth between sub and surface?

Two weeks to fill out cards and a month to do board? To qualify subs? I'm really lost right now. I mean, I know of the whole process submariners go through to get their pins, but don't you have months to qualify?

Back in "the day," there were nuclear powered cruisers as well. I don't know how he did what he did, but he was as salty as they come and he could tell sea stories for days on end..., and they were all interesting.

He was also as sleezy as they come, which is probably why he never made Chief. :) He was one of a few "gold cheveron" first classes I knew.

When he got to my boat as the LELT, I was the senior second doing his check chemistry. He says to me, "Oh, you guys really do primaries here?" :D So yeah, I had to take the lead on doing things right which was a struggle against this willingness to disregard the rules, but I managed and got to be LELT eventually.

I am still in touch with him to this day, even though he retired about 8 years ago.
« Last Edit: Jun 23, 2011, 12:27 by TheHiggs »
"How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.” - Ted Nugent

drayer54

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #28 on: Jun 23, 2011, 12:49 »
Nubs qualed warfare were allowed in berthing. What are you thoughts on that?
1) I believe it was Senior In Rate and warfare

2) Don't you have something to be working on?! ROFL ROFL



3) I'm sure that sub fellas without dolphins aren't getting as much sleep as their counterparts. I'd also wager it varies by command. You might need some post navy counseling to get the bitter thing out. Do I need to get my tape recorder and notebook out so you can come talk on my couch?



Offline Higgs

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #29 on: Jun 23, 2011, 12:54 »

No, sailors dont flip flop routinely. Pick one and stick with it until you get DQ'ed subs, medical or other wise, which is usually how it works.


No, that isn't how it usually works.

Justin
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Offline goobs22xx

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #30 on: Jun 23, 2011, 01:10 »
No, that isn't how it usually works.

Justin

I think he meant that getting DQ'd is how community swapping usually works, not that getting DQ'd subs is what normally happens across the board.

Unless you were actually saying that more people swap for reasons other than submarine DQ...which wasn't true in my limited SPU(NUB) experience. We had a few guys qual'd fish and esws, but every one of them switched due to medical/psych stuff.

Offline Higgs

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #31 on: Jun 23, 2011, 01:15 »
I think he meant that getting DQ'd is how community swapping usually works, not that getting DQ'd subs is what normally happens across the board.

Unless you were actually saying that more people swap for reasons other than submarine DQ...which wasn't true in my limited SPU(NUB) experience. We had a few guys qual'd fish and esws, but every one of them switched due to medical/psych stuff.

Yes, that is what I am saying,,, that it isn't USUALLY DQ that causes the swap..., at least in my 9 years. Of all of the dual warfare people I knew, only 2 were DQs of some sort. The rest were hard charging individuals that had long term goals and being dual warfare was one of them. With some luck, smoozing, timing and needs of the Navy, one can swap.

Again, I didn't say it was easy or common, but it is doable.

And in my experience, it wasn't USUALLY because of a DQ.

I simply don't like how the fish states his generalities as fact, because they often aren't even close.
« Last Edit: Jun 23, 2011, 01:29 by TheHiggs »
"How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.” - Ted Nugent

yayarea

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #32 on: Jun 23, 2011, 01:28 »
The rest were hard charging individuals that had long term goals and being dual warfare was one of them. With some luck, smoozing, timing and needs of the Navy, one can swap.

Ah, good to know that it can happen without a bad look.  :P

Offline Higgs

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #33 on: Jun 23, 2011, 01:30 »
Ah, good to know that it can happen without a bad look.  :P

Well the one thing I do agree with, is that dual NECs and dual warfare are a long way off. Good long long term goals, but your short term goals neeed to be your primary NEC and warfare, and making sure you are an expert at your job.

Then, you can do these other things.

But I am sure you know that.
"How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.” - Ted Nugent

Offline Higgs

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #34 on: Jun 23, 2011, 03:06 »
1) no. it was warfare and not dinq in quals.

2) ummm no.

3) ok???

every sub to surface ive met either went to a tender or medically dq'ed.



Irrelevant.
"How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.” - Ted Nugent

Offline Higgs

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #35 on: Jun 23, 2011, 03:11 »
That makes your experience irrelevant as well.

I never stated what I said as fact or the way it "usually" was.

By the way, you are now on ignore.
"How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.” - Ted Nugent

Offline goobs22xx

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #36 on: Jun 23, 2011, 06:58 »
Interesting that our experiences were so opposite. Thanks for sharing :). I really had no idea, and Ive come in contact with a lot of people.

OP, as you can see, there's lots of doors that can be opened. Good luck with it. I hope you're as motivated three years from now as you are at this moment ;).

Yes, that is what I am saying,,, that it isn't USUALLY DQ that causes the swap..., at least in my 9 years. Of all of the dual warfare people I knew, only 2 were DQs of some sort. The rest were hard charging individuals that had long term goals and being dual warfare was one of them. With some luck, smoozing, timing and needs of the Navy, one can swap.

Again, I didn't say it was easy or common, but it is doable.

And in my experience, it wasn't USUALLY because of a DQ.

I simply don't like how the fish states his generalities as fact, because they often aren't even close.

yayarea

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #37 on: Jun 23, 2011, 09:30 »
Well the one thing I do agree with, is that dual NECs and dual warfare are a long way off. Good long long term goals, but your short term goals need to be your primary NEC and warfare, and making sure you are an expert at your job.

Then, you can do these other things.

But I am sure you know that.

Yes, sir, definitely. I apologize if I seem as though I'm planning too far ahead, I would just like to have some idea of what could happen once I ship out.

OP, as you can see, there's lots of doors that can be opened. Good luck with it. I hope you're as motivated three years from now as you are at this moment  ;).

I appreciate it! It's a bit of a story, but I actually ended up regretting what I had done after high school and felt even worse when my brother received his appointment to the AF Academy. I needed to do something with myself; I just know this is one thing I'll try to make the most of and won't screw up for myself.
« Last Edit: Jun 23, 2011, 09:31 by yayarea »

Offline HydroDave63

Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #38 on: Jun 23, 2011, 09:40 »
But if that's the case, then neither did the 1200 people that got their pins during that underway.

Sounds like more of Mullet's 'sword polishing'  >:(

Offline HydroDave63

Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #39 on: Jun 24, 2011, 06:51 »
Yeah that was what the :P was for. I know it's not a Nimitz helm.

Speaking of video games, incidentally, video game skills are useful in a commercial nuke control room. ;)

Surface Warfare "Repel Boarders" Simulator for Gen Millenium Sea Warriors, circa 2020:
« Last Edit: Jun 24, 2011, 06:52 by HydroDave63 »

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #40 on: Jun 24, 2011, 07:26 »
I'm a sub guy, so I'm slanted toward the submarine service actual requirement to qualify subs.  This requirement is based on many factors, probably the biggest being that every member of the crew is responsible for making sure the number of surfaces equals the number of dives.  I've seen a handful of guys leave the sub service because they couldn't qualify.  IMHO, the surface navy tried to emulate the sub force and make surface warfare quals a requirement as a way to improve overall performance.  Selection Boards used to be briefed that getting ESWS was a tie-breaker.  Like everything else that creates a false standard, everybody started qualifying it. Eventually it became a bonafide requirement so it was no longer a big deal to earn the pin.  Air warfare quals are a nicety for a nuke.  When I sat an E-8 selection board, we were briefed by the Subject Matter Expert(s) that for certain rates EAWS was a "requirement".  For others (like nukes) EAWS quals was not a substitute for being successful as leader/mentor to junior enlisted.  For example, it was a big plus for Chief that his juniors had high advancement and retention rates.  I don't recall any nukes making the final cut based on EAWS quals.

WRT secondary NECs, your rating will determine what's available.  There is no such thing as "nuke" diver.  The reason there are so many nuclear divers is twofold:  (1) Nukes are the most knowledgable on SW systems and understand piping systems in general, so it's beneficial for the ship to have nuclear guys qualify dive.  and (2) Dive school is very challenging and a nuke who can meet the physical requirements will generally pass the mental and academic parts of the school based on their previous training. 
« Last Edit: Jun 24, 2011, 09:27 by DDMurray »
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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #41 on: Jun 24, 2011, 02:33 »
I'm a sub guy, so I'm slanted toward the submarine service actual requirement to qualify subs.  This requirement is based on many factors, probably the biggest being that every member of the crew is responsible for making sure the number of surfaces equals the number of dives.  I've seen a handful of guys leave the sub service because they couldn't qualify.  IMHO, the surface navy tried to emulate the sub force and make surface warfare quals a requirement as a way to improve overall performance.  Selection Boards used to be briefed that getting ESWS was a tie-breaker.  Like everything else that creates a false standard, everybody started qualifying it. Eventually it became a bonafide requirement so it was no longer a big deal to earn the pin.  Air warfare quals are a nicety for a nuke.  When I sat an E-8 selection board, we were briefed by the Subject Matter Expert(s) that for certain rates EAWS was a "requirement".  For others (like nukes) EAWS quals was not a substitute for being successful as leader/mentor to junior enlisted.  For example, it was a big plus for Chief that his juniors had high advancement and retention rates.  I don't recall any nukes making the final cut based on EAWS quals.

WRT secondary NECs, your rating will determine what's available.  There is no such thing as "nuke" diver.  The reason there are so many nuclear divers is twofold:  (1) Nukes are the most knowledgable on SW systems and understand piping systems in general, so it's beneficial for the ship to have nuclear guys qualify dive.  and (2) Dive school is very challenging and a nuke who can meet the physical requirements will generally pass the mental and academic parts of the school based on their previous training. 

Good Observation.

My  [2cents]  (2 cents)
Being a Nuke MM (machinist mate) / SS (sub-warfare) / DV (diver) / Welder / QAI (quality assurance inspector) was easy.  Being on a Fast Attack Submarine, now that was a tough life.  Easy for me being single and not knowing any better.  Hard for those with any amount of time on Boomers or being Married.  Once you had an opportunity to see life on the other side of the Fast Attack Lifestyle you did not really want a second go (re: fast attack).

Being dual qualified did not mean much.  I was a Nuke MM.  I served on Sub's.  I filled billets for Nuke MM's with Welding as a secondary skill-set.  I could have performed as a diver on any particular Fast Attack sub I served (as long as I maintained my qual's).

It seemed the Surface folks had pay that matched mine even with all of my qual's and they went to sea less.  So, why did I volunteer for so much extra work?  (Answer: I was young and dumb.  Oh yeah and I was Fast Attack Tough!)

With all of these qual's I chose to exercise my true dual qualification.  I got out of the Navy.  And, returned to my other qualification ... Civilian.

You are your primary NEC.  And you will be placed into billets for your qual's if it serves a purpose.  Being an SS/DV didn't get me any special diners.  It only got me more extra work and fewer possible selections of sea going commands (based on the needs of the Navy).  This was on top of the extra work I had as a Nuke MM (primary) / Welder (secondary) / QAI (collateral duty).

Be careful what you wish for, as the expression so states, you just might get it.


drayer54

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #42 on: Jun 24, 2011, 06:39 »
It seemed the Surface folks had pay that matched mine even with all of my qual's and they went to sea less.  So, why did I volunteer for so much extra work?  (Answer: I was young and dumb.  Oh yeah and I was Fast Attack Tough!)



I'm going to need some proof of this "yet another reason sub guys are more awesome that's totally bs" claim.


Offline 730SMAG

Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #43 on: Jun 24, 2011, 06:44 »
I thought we had this entire conversation before in another thread...

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #44 on: Jun 24, 2011, 07:13 »

I'm going to need some proof of this "yet another reason sub guys are more awesome that's totally bs" claim.
If your criteria of who's exceptional is based on who took the easy road, then no amount of proof will be enough. 
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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drayer54

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #45 on: Jun 24, 2011, 08:06 »
If your criteria of who's exceptional is based on who took the easy road, then no amount of proof will be enough. 

You sub guys are truly amazing. You worked so exceptionally hard for everything and qualified on your much more difficult and confusing plant. You were hand picked from the pipeline to demonstrate your godlike ability to share a rack with another man and identify fire extinguishers. You sacrificed the daylight (that we enjoyed everyday? Go stick your face next to your car exhaust while your kids slams the gas pedal in park and take it all in) and the sight of the many beautiful women that we served with. Your deployments were longer (ROFL) and your beards were amazing. I can't think you enough for the amazing level of sacrifice you made by getting assigned to a sinking tube. I am starting to think that sub guys spend their watches talking about how awesome they are and superior they must be to their surface counterparts. Surface guys sit around not talking about sub guys, because we don't care and realize that essentially, we did the same thing.

But you guys are right. So here ya go:

drayer54

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #46 on: Jun 24, 2011, 08:08 »
5 other threads,...

This happens every time,....

Every dam time,... [coffee]
Sorry....

On Topic: go to Cummins Diesel School if you get a chance! Nukes need to spend more time smelling like diesel after what we do.There ya go, back on the tracks...

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #47 on: Jun 24, 2011, 09:50 »
Sorry....

On Topic: go to Cummins Diesel School if you get a chance! Nukes need to spend more time smelling like diesel after what we do.There ya go, back on the tracks...
  You might even smell like a submariner, if you're lucky.  Draper, that is nice fish in your picture. 
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #48 on: Jun 24, 2011, 09:53 »
You sub guys are truly amazing.

Thanks. (Fox News editing)
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

MacGyver

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Re: Nucs with Secondary NECS?
« Reply #49 on: Jun 27, 2011, 01:37 »


I'm going to need some proof of this "yet another reason sub guys are more awesome that's totally bs" claim.



Okay, let me give this a try.   

First, I believe you mis-interpreted my meaning.  I was attempting to say being on a sub is a lot of extra work without any extra pay.  But, read it however you like.

Second, All but one A School Instructor was a SS when I went through.  All but one NNPS Instructor was a SS when I went through.  All but one Proto Instructor was a SS when I went through.  In the first two they were Section Advisor's (both white men).  The last was a black female Chief Electrician Mate Instructor.

So, I guess you are trying to overcompensate with your response.   

Third, 80% of my Proto Class Vol'd for Sub's.  1 in 5 got one.  And, we left open spots.  It did not say anything about our intelligence.  Getting selected came down to Effort and Attitude.

So, you either did not want a sub (< 20%) or you were the rejected (highest probability).  Either way you appear to be projecting in an effort to compensate for the commonly accepted fact that submariners are superior sailor's.  Of course it's all subconscious.   


You sub guys are truly amazing.

Thank you.

You worked so exceptionally hard for everything and qualified on your much more difficult and confusing plant.

Yes we did and I doubt it, but if you say so.

You were hand picked from the pipeline to demonstrate your godlike ability to share a rack with another man and identify fire extinguishers. You sacrificed the daylight (that we enjoyed everyday?

"godlike", uh dude we never said that.  What a stupid commit.  But, other than that "we" were hand picked.  I'm glad you can admit we demonstrated a unique control of our emotions to submerge, and sink targets, and re-appear on command.  So, as you can see the only need for fire-extinguishers was to put out the fires we started on the targets (i.e. surface ships) we torpedoed.

Go stick your face next to your car exhaust while your kids slams the gas pedal in park and take it all in) and the sight of the many beautiful women that we served with.

Really, you went to sea to view women?  First, that means you were not doing your job and second, you have no control over women.  Everyman on a sub was secure in his manhood.  I am beginning to doubt yours.

Your deployments were longer (ROFL) and your beards were amazing. I can't think you enough for the amazing level of sacrifice you made by getting assigned to a sinking tube. I am starting to think that sub guys spend their watches talking about how awesome they are and superior they must be to their surface counterparts. Surface guys sit around not talking about sub guys, because we don't care and realize that essentially, we did the same thing.

Obviously we will have to agree to disagree about deployment times.  It is completely subjective and depends on the years you served.


But if you think I'm being mean then please review the definition of mean:
Quote




 


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