Currently SWO-N.... Thinking about switching to SSN's

[SSBN_SeaWolf]

Hello All.
You may remember me from my past posts. Although I have not posted much lately, I still read much more often.
I was accepted as a SWO-N in August. I did not give submarines much though at the time, but now that I talk to more and more JO's and DH's, I would like an opinion/advise on if I should switch to the silent service.

My reasoning for being on a carrier is that, I would get more exposure to other Naval Communities on a Carrier. I have recently found out that Nukes on carrier basically are in the engine room all the time. As oppose to on an SSN, JO's rotate stations and are exposed to all areas of Submarine operations. As a DH, although they are only responsible for one station.

I have also been told that, as an Office in the Submarine community we will have a much more interaction in mission planning and tactical areas of being on a SSN/SSBN/SSGN since there are very few officers, all nukes, on a Submarine.

I could care less for Port visits on a CVN. I also understand that SSN's get much less port time than any other conventional ship. SSBN's don't do port calls.

I have also been told that, quite often, SWO-N do not get picked up for their PA tour and are "de-nuked" and spend the rest of their career as regular SWO's if they choose.

Submariners have a faster promotion rate to O-4, because if they are selected as CHENG, they wear O-4 and get paid as an O-4 while on the boat. If they don't get selected as boards, they will put O-3 back on. Any truth to this?

After Conventional tour, SWO-N become very specialized on a carrier and do not do much of anything else. Submariners, on the other hand are responsible for the entire boat including Intel, Weapons, Navigation etc...

I understand that SWO-N's can never XO/CO a CVN, but what are the selection rates for a conventional ship? Since we also compete with regular SWO's, does it matter that you have a Nuclear Tour under your belt especially if one wants to be a DH and thus an O-4. (Thinking from a career perspective to see if SWO-N are at a disadvantage??)

Lots of Surface Warfare Officers say, "There is a value in seeing the sun". I am not sure if they are jealous of the Submarine Service because the Dolphin is much coveted in the Navy!!! This goes along the lines for a career path, because when I was at DC, none of the interviewers for me or my buddies were Surface nukes. THEY WERE ALL SUBMARINERS, INCLUDING ADMIRAL DONALD. (unless we did not get any surface nukes)

Promotion rates for Submariners tend to be high? (I tried looking for it in NPC, couldn't find the link)

Submariners are given greater responsibility and are exposed to more operational areas than SWO's. Lot of people say, "Would you want to be underwater all the time?" But from what I have heard, SWO's have the lowest retention rates.

Current LT's say, it is cheaper for SSN to be out at sea and Cheaper for a Conventional ship to be parked... Probably is true. But I am in the Navy and would like to be out at sea as much as I can while I am single.

The Phrase, "Target Floater" gets under my skin immensely....!!!

Submariners are a smaller and thus closer community. They are also the best trained, best talented, highest paid, fastest promoted community.... I would imagine Surface Nukes are just as qualified, but that does not seem to be the case. Above all, I thought promotion was based on, "Sustained Superior Performance".

There are 72 Submariners and 11 Carriers, chances of where I want to be stationed are higher. (This one doesn't bother me too much. I am young and single so I shall go where the Navy sends me)

Current Submarines say, "Carriers need SSN's more than SSN's need the carriers". It is probably true, but Why. They also say, Submariners have "cooler missions".

Fewer SWO-N's choose to continue than Submariners.

After retirement or upon leaving the Navy, Submariners have the best shot at a corporate job. This is speculative, I understand. But I have heard this from many current and former Submariners.

Currently Navy does not screen for XO. They screen XO for CO fleet up. They basically become CO's 18 months after XO's? True? False? Somewhat?

Even after a CO tour on a conventional ship, Surface nukes go back as a Reactor Officer! What exactly reactor officer do?

Statement that SWO-N make up a disproportionate number of CO's in the Navy....??

Thank you all for taking time to answer my questions. I understand that a lot of what I have said is probably opinion and not much with merit, if it is an opinion. I just want to have all the information I have before I switch over. The paperwork is easy. Once I am a Submariner, switching back is an impossible task so I want to make sure I want to.

I imagine Navy has probably considered that so both Surface Nukes and Submariners do not have a career disadvantage.

Thanks again. I will post more questions if they pop up in my head. Meanwhile, thanks for answering the questions for me. Many thanks to Gamecock, Justin, FastNeutron, Godzilla, SavBob and countless others (I have forgotten to name) who have helped answer lots of my questions before posting. Please feel free to correct my statements, I would like facts rather than true-ish statements.

/r

Seawolf
OCS Date: 07AUG2010.

GO NAVY. BEAT ARMY.

[Neutron_Herder]

Looks to me like you've made up your mind to switch to subs, and are looking for support...

GC is the most knowledgeable person in the forum to address this topic that I know of, but I'll take a shot at some of it.

My reasoning for being on a carrier is that, I would get more exposure to other Naval Communities on a Carrier. I have recently found out that Nukes on carrier basically are in the engine room all the time. As oppose to on an SSN, JO's rotate stations and are exposed to all areas of Submarine operations. As a DH, although they are only responsible for one station.

You're right (pretty much).  As a SWO(N), you'll do a tour on a conventional surface ship first.  This will be a division officer level tour where you'll obtain your SWO pin.  After you get to the carrier you'll still be a Division Officer (yes, even if you're a LTjg or full LT).  You'll spend most of your time in the plant qualifying and running a nuclear division.  You'll also do your PNEO quals on that tour.  The times keep getting shorter, but it was about 12 months after you qualified, depending on whether you were getting out or staying in.  Don't get me wrong though, every officer (no matter how stupid) at least gets a shot at qualifying.   

You don't get to see much of the ship during that tour.  You might be able to qualify Officer of the Deck, but you're probably not going to qualify TAO or anything else along those lines.  The most you'll probably see outside of the plant is going to be Locker Officer at one of the Damage Control repair lockers.

After that time, you'll probably roll back to a conventional ship, or maybe shore duty.  That's where my knowledge starts to fail me.  Honestly, nuke officers come and go on the ship so quickly that they're difficult to keep track of...  One day they're your Division Officer, the next they're at PNEO, then they're gone.  It's not really that fast, but that's the way it feels to those of us that spend more than 2 years on a ship.

Submariners have a faster promotion rate to O-4, because if they are selected as CHENG, they wear O-4 and get paid as an O-4 while on the boat. If they don't get selected as boards, they will put O-3 back on. Any truth to this?

I don't know about faster, but the program you're referring to does exist on both Carriers and Subs.  It's called a "Spot Promote".  If you're selected for a job that requires you to be an O-4 (CHENG on a sub, PA on a carrier), you're promoted to that rank while performing the job.  If you're not selected for O-4 during the time that you're serving in the position, then when you leave you put O-3 back on.  By that point in time you've probably passed the time requirements for an O-3 to become an O-4, and are asked to go home.  In 21 years I saw it happen once.

After Conventional tour, SWO-N become very specialized on a carrier and do not do much of anything else. Submariners, on the other hand are responsible for the entire boat including Intel, Weapons, Navigation etc...

Not really.  From what I've seen officers that aren't CWO or LDO pretty much alternate their assignments.  You'll do a conventional DIVO tour, Nuke DIVO, Conventional DH (maybe shore duty instead?), Nuke PA, conventional XO...  then I don't know.  I finished up at a sub command and from what I understood they were all nukes, but some nukes were more nuclear than others (if that makes any sense).  The forward guys didn't really do much with the plant, they had enough to do on their own.  Same goes for the guys in the plant...  they didn't go forward too much.

Submariners are a smaller and thus closer community. They are also the best trained, best talented, highest paid, fastest promoted community.... I would imagine Surface Nukes are just as qualified, but that does not seem to be the case. Above all, I thought promotion was based on, "Sustained Superior Performance".

I actually find this comment pretty offensive, especially coming from someone who hasn't seen anything.  Don't get me wrong, submariners are highly qualified, but where do you have the experience to say that "it doesn't seem to be the case" that surface nukes are not as qualified??  Get some time in the plant, any plant, then maybe you can say something.

Even after a CO tour on a conventional ship, Surface nukes go back as a Reactor Officer! What exactly reactor officer do?

Yes, a Reactor Officer tour is a post command tour.  Typically they will show up as a senior O-5, and pick up O-6 soon after taking over.  The Reactor Officer is the Department Head for all of the nuclear divisions on the ship comprising hundreds of people and immense responsibility.  It's not a step down.  If they are successful most RO's move on to a major command spot following their Reactor Officer tour.


I don't know the answers to the other questions you posed, so I'm not going to try.  My biggest recommendation would to be to actually talk to some surface nukes instead of just sub guys.  There are definitely advantages and disadvantages to both, make sure you have a good idea of them before you attempt to modify your decision.

Good luck!

[SSBN_SeaWolf]

Submariners are a smaller and thus closer community. They are also the best trained, best talented, highest paid, fastest promoted community.... I would imagine Surface Nukes are just as qualified, but that does not seem to be the case. Above all, I thought promotion was based on, "Sustained Superior Performance".

I actually find this comment pretty offensive, especially coming from someone who hasn't seen anything.  Don't get me wrong, submariners are highly qualified, but where do you have the experience to say that "it doesn't seem to be the case" that surface nukes are not as qualified??  Get some time in the plant, any plant, then maybe you can say something.

Thank you very much sir for your response. Although I am not implying surface nukes are not as well trained as the Submariners... This seems to be the general opinion among Submarine Officers. I have tried looking in Global, but I always seem to find Submariners and lots of regular SWO's and barely any SWO-N's although I know they exist.

Especially regarding your comment about, "some are more nukes than other", if i understand that correctly.... Some officers will do nothing in the front of the boat and some will not do as much as in the engine room. I guess if the boat's CO does not trust you to drive the boat, one will remain in the engine room. Is this what you were implying? sort of?

Seawolf

[Gamecock]

Thank you very much sir for your response. Although I am not implying surface nukes are not as well trained as the Submariners... This seems to be the general opinion among Submarine Officers. I have tried looking in Global, but I always seem to find Submariners and lots of regular SWO's and barely any SWO-N's although I know they exist.

Especially regarding your comment about, "some are more nukes than other", if i understand that correctly.... Some officers will do nothing in the front of the boat and some will not do as much as in the engine room. I guess if the boat's CO does not trust you to drive the boat, one will remain in the engine room. Is this what you were implying? sort of?

Seawolf

You've got to many questions to answer in writing.  Send me a PM with your phone number and I'll be happy to address all your questions on the phone.

Cheers,
GC

[playswithairplanes]

I finished up at a sub command and from what I understood they were all nukes, but some nukes were more nuclear than others (if that makes any sense).  The forward guys didn't really do much with the plant, they had enough to do on their own.  Same goes for the guys in the plant...  they didn't go forward too much.

Not true. You have a misunderstanding of Submarine organizational structure.  On a boat vs. a target all officers (except the chop) are nukes and required to stand proficiency watches, except the CO, XO, and ENG (psst... no CHENG on boats...that's a target thing). As a new butter bar assigned to the boat, you are first posted to the Engineering department. Meaning you'll be EA, RCA, or RL divo. MPA and DCA are senior JO billets in the Engineering dpt. Following a specified time in Engineering, JOs move to the cone, becoming Commo, WEPS, NAV, etc.

As to the point about submariners being higher quals, etc.  Well, to some extent in the cone, yes. Every cone has to graduate BESS, it's not dreadfully hard, but it's a process that weeds out some. The rejects go to the target fleet. Now with Nukes this is a different situation. The training is exactly the same target or sub. The crew is MUCH tighter knit than on ANY target. Several reasons for this. The most basic is numbers. I'm sure some smaller targets are just as close. On a boat, you WILL know everyone by sight and by name, and generally a lot more than that. On a target... you're just a face in the crowd. Second, on a boat there is no such thing as "not my job". The operation of the boat is everyone's "job" that's what SS quals are all about. Everyone learns DC. Everyone fights the casualties. On targets, people run away from fires, on subs we run TO the fire. WE all go home, or nobody goes home is the philosophy.

The down side of a boat is can you stand to be in a building for up to 100 days straight with very little "personal space" with 130 other guys? Breathing recycled air, not always bathing, etc?  Being on a boat also means not being able to tell your family and friends where you are. You disappear off the face of the earth for your underway time. They can communicate with you, but you can't with them. This isn't so with targets. It's hard to hide a target, it's easy and normal for a sub.

The relations between Officer and enlisted are vastly different on boats as well. Far less formal. There aren't separate meal prep facilities for Officers and the crew. Everyone eats the same food. Officers have the wardroom, but it's still the same food.

I served on 3 submarines, and 2 tenders (sortta targets sortta subs mix there).

[cheme09]

I  see you're using all your outlets to get as much info as possible.  Seems like the recruiters got the best of you and you just rolled with it without doing the necessary research haha.  It's ok, it happened to me too.  But I've had a lot of time to research because I didn't get picked up first time around like you.

PM me your email address and I'll send you what info I've gathered (all from official navy websites).  You'll find answers to many of your questions, with some statistics I'm sure you'll find helpful.

Might not help as much since Gamecock has offered his knowledge and I know he has plenty of invaluable information.  Nevertheless, shoot me a PM if you're interested.

[SSBN_SeaWolf]

Thanks buddy. I sent you an email on gMail. Thanks.

[Neutron_Dodger]

It looks like you have all the support you need from other contributors.  I'm a sub LT if you want to chat.  I love subs and have no desire to be a SWO whatsoever.  You'll never have another experience like being Surfaced OOD at night. 

[SWO]

Well maybe you've already decided, and maybe not.. maybe I can share a little information from my 'slanted' point of view.

I would like an opinion/advise on if I should switch to the silent service.

No! Why not just be a pilot?

My reasoning for being on a carrier is that, I would get more exposure to other Naval Communities on a Carrier. I have recently found out that Nukes on carrier basically are in the engine room all the time. As oppose to on an SSN, JO's rotate stations and are exposed to all areas of Submarine operations. As a DH, although they are only responsible for one station.

First of all, you're not going to get a ton of exposure to other communities until your shore tour, depending on where you go. We do pretty much live in the plant on our 2nd tour, but where else would we be? Just don't expect to go SWO(N) and stand any bridge watch! You'll get your topside exposure on your first tour (you'll be required to be in an non-engineering job). You'll spend time on the bridge (a lot) and in combat, etc. I would imagine the reason sub JOs "rotate out" between watchstations is because they have much more stuff to qualify at than a SWO would in a given amount of time. We spread it out a little over two tours instead of one. They show up to their boat knowing nothing, whereas we worry about the nuke stuff after we're warfare qualified.

I have also been told that, as an Office in the Submarine community we will have a much more interaction in mission planning and tactical areas of being on a SSN/SSBN/SSGN since there are very few officers, all nukes, on a Submarine.

Can't speak for this specifically on the sub side, other than as a rule, JOs dont take the lead on a lot of "planning" in the Navy in general unless it's in preparation for very unimportant things. The more senior guys have the experience and training for that, but you'll see some of it.

I have also been told that, quite often, SWO-N do not get picked up for their PA tour and are "de-nuked" and spend the rest of their career as regular SWO's if they choose.

I think there's been only a handful, and it was only because too many people stayed in post-9/11. I'm sure the NPC website has some numbers on these so-called "PA screening boards."

Submariners have a faster promotion rate to O-4, because if they are selected as CHENG, they wear O-4 and get paid as an O-4 while on the boat. If they don't get selected as boards, they will put O-3 back on. Any truth to this?

Not really ... the SWO(N) PA jobs you'd be eligible for are also O-4 spot promote billets. The reversion to LT is possible but unlikely unless you reach the tour (and subsequently leave) early.

After Conventional tour, SWO-N become very specialized on a carrier and do not do much of anything else. Submariners, on the other hand are responsible for the entire boat including Intel, Weapons, Navigation etc...

Not even sure how to approach this one, other than to say that's not been my observation. Submariners are responsible for the whole boat, not unlike how our crew is responsible for the whole carrier. Regardless of the size of the vessel, you will inevitably end up in a job with a specific focus that you will be asked to master.

I understand that SWO-N's can never XO/CO a CVN, but what are the selection rates for a conventional ship? Since we also compete with regular SWO's, does it matter that you have a Nuclear Tour under your belt especially if one wants to be a DH and thus an O-4. (Thinking from a career perspective to see if SWO-N are at a disadvantage??)

Pilots & NFOs are our CO/XOs. Traditionally, SWO(N)s have a higher selection rate for command vs. conventional SWOs. NPC also has a few briefs on this posted on their website.

Lots of Surface Warfare Officers say, "There is a value in seeing the sun". I am not sure if they are jealous of the Submarine Service because the Dolphin is much coveted in the Navy!!! This goes along the lines for a career path, because when I was at DC, none of the interviewers for me or my buddies were Surface nukes. THEY WERE ALL SUBMARINERS, INCLUDING ADMIRAL DONALD. (unless we did not get any surface nukes)

It may be cherished by those who have it, but I don't regret not being in 3-section duty for three years in a row. Almost every single one of the LDOs on my ship is a former submariner... wonder why they didn't go back?

But from what I have heard, SWO's have the lowest retention rates.

True statement, followed directly by sub officers. Truth be told, their retention rates both stink because it's a tough job. Aviation, on the other hand, has a great retention rate!

They also say, Submariners have "cooler missions".

Such as?

After retirement or upon leaving the Navy, Submariners have the best shot at a corporate job. This is speculative, I understand. But I have heard this from many current and former Submariners.

Community pride at work, maybe? Being a Naval officer in general will set you up nice.

Even after a CO tour on a conventional ship, Surface nukes go back as a Reactor Officer! What exactly reactor officer do?

He's a department head on the carrier. Seeing how there are 400+ people in his department,  basically like a mini-CO for us. Once complete with serving as an RO, he/she can go back to sea for major command.


Obviously I'm a SWO, but I'm not one to be characterized as a diggit, "Joe-Navy," or a surface warfare poster boy. I've been in your situation, and I've weighed the arguments, but in the end the only person that can make the best choice is you!

With that being said, I DO like the sun, and good port calls. I like getting paid more, I like seeing my guys not living at work, I like more than 3-section duty, and while I don't get any of the "super sweet missions" like trying to be super quiet, I do enjoy my own rack in a room the size of which tubers will never see until they're a CO, and the ability to call home whenever, and generally having a somewhat reasonable life outside work. It's all about size, baby, and the whole ass-ton of people that come with it who can share in the workload.

Good luck, and I hope you enjoy whichever path you choose!

You'll never have another experience like being Surfaced OOD at night.

Oh, and Neutron_Herder ... we definitely got to do that on the daily ...

Sail safe!
E

[crusemm]

It may be cherished by those who have it, but I don't regret not being in 3-section duty for three years in a row. Almost every single one of the LDOs on my ship is a former submariner... wonder why they didn't go back?

Just to nitpick a little, Sub LDO's don't return to subs because there are no jobs for them.  The only thing they are allowed to do as LDO is to be the DMP/ERO coordinator for subs entering major availabilities.  And if they don't time it right (or the CO does not allow it) they may not even be able to qualify EOOW, which knocks out most of the officer watch quals for them.  There is some wiggle room, but not much.  I have been through 2 major avails and started a third, and at one time was considering the LDO route.  Then I saw what they do and decided to make Chief instead .  Hope this helps

[Fermi2]

Point of Accuracy. You are NOT a SWO_N yet.

[SWO]

Oh, give the kid a break - we're always in quals for something  

Just to nitpick a little, Sub LDO's don't return to subs because there are no jobs for them.  The only thing they are allowed to do as LDO is to be the DMP/ERO coordinator for subs entering major availabilities.  And if they don't time it right (or the CO does not allow it) they may not even be able to qualify EOOW, which knocks out most of the officer watch quals for them.  There is some wiggle room, but not much.  I have been through 2 major avails and started a third, and at one time was considering the LDO route.  Then I saw what they do and decided to make Chief instead .  Hope this helps

Point taken. Maybe a few more would go back if it were easier ... can't speak much to that.

[joerendo]

Did you every try to switch programs?  Were you successful?

[spekkio]

A few things...

Firstly, yes, a surface career will expose you to other communities more than a submarine career. This is particularly true if you get stationed in Groton, where over 98% of the people you interact with will be submariners or submariners on shore duty. But what are you hoping to get out of this interaction? Pilots are just going to make fun of you for being dumb for getting 4 hours of sleep when they get double that and the 'silly' restrictions your CO places on taking contacts within 8 miles of your ship because he doesn't want to get fired. If you don't believe me, I can put you in touch with plenty of them.

As a JO on a SSN, you are pretty much owned by the ENG the entire time. Yea, you'll move onto jobs like AOPS or such, but that will not absolve you from engineroom watchstanding, eng dept training, EOOW/EWS training, eng dept exams etc. Now you just get to pile on the other departmental/divisional training on top of your engineroom stuff, so your workload just increases (although admin is much lighter outside of engdept). Once you pass PNEO a little of that goes away, but not much. Even the DH's do EOOW/EWS training, exams, and proficiency watches.

Depending on when you hit the boat, you may or may not get a lot of forward time. I hit at a time where my "turn" for standing watch forward came up sooner than normal because of the JO rotation. Some of the JO's who showed up after me are perpetual EOOW's/EDO's for the duration of their tour, so they will have very little exposure to ship's operations outside of eng dept. It's simply the luck of the draw. And no, it doesn't matter if you prefer standing watch back aft...you'll go where your XO tells you to go.

Submarines have a very low retention late, although it's much higher now due to a bad economy. Here's the tidbit they don't really tell you: your recruiter will tell you that submarines operate on an 18 hour day -- 6 hours of watch, 6 hours of off-going work, and 6 hours of sleep/whatever. What they don't tell you is that watch isn't really 6 hours...you get woken up 1 hour and 45 min early so you can do a pre-watch tour and then go to a pre-watch brief. Then you eat, then you relieve. Then you have to do a post-watch tour and turnover with the eng/co. That brings your total watchstanding time to 8 hours. In your 4 1/2 hours of off-going (assuming you ate), you will usually have to go to mandatory training, drills, meetings, etc. Then you finally get time to do your divisional work. If you are EA, then yea, you get to hit the rack. If you are CRA, it's time to work on the next admin monster for the week. Oh, and whoever said that you can't be something like MPA, DCA, or CRA as a 1st eng dept job is incorrect. The command can assign you to anything they want, and the first priority is making sure all their JO's can get the required year in the engineroom.

Also, a lot of boats do an ops brief on an evening watch. Word is that a lot of boats expect all officers to go to this, which means it might be in your oncoming time. If the command isn't good at setting "hands off" watches where you can get 4 hours down, then you can easily be on 2 hours of sleep in 24 hours.

You will not be promoted faster on submarines unless you get picked to be an engineer during your DH tour. That involves a spot-promote to LCDR. The Nav and Weps show up as a LT and get promoted on a normal timeline. Even the Eng has to wait the normal time to get a permanent promotion to LCDR.

As a JO, you won't really have much input on overall planning unless you get made AOPS. The most you can do is properly manage and push your programs, which are all a small piece of the puzzle in the overall scheme of things. It might be specific to boats, but on my boat planning goes from DH to chief, and as a DIVO you're kind of an extra sitting there like wtf mate?

Yea, submarine enlisted/officer relations are different than the rest of the fleet, but at times it can present a real leadership challenge. You aren't worth shit without dolphins, so you're going to have to find creative ways to get M-div'ers to pay attention to small valve maintenance, get the LELT to give a shit about check chemistry, or get DCPO's to turn in their weekly DC inventories -- programs that frequently get blown off and you can't do fuckall about as a nub because you require enlisted support to get qualified.

I have a boat that doesn't like to put people on 3-section in port duty. As such, I have very rarely been less than 4 section. I know people on boats who put EDO's 3-section even in a fully dolphin qualified wardroom. 3-section in port duty blows asshole.

Some SSN's do really cool missions that can't be done by any other platform. Some SSN's do missions just because they have to justify their existence at some point by some at-sea time. Some SSN's stay in drydock for 3 years because they collided with another Naval asset and someone high up did a cost-benefit analysis and decided not to decom them.

Sorry if this post seems overly negative, it's not really intended to be that...it's just that I wanted to check some of the rose-tinted opinions you have received about the submarine force.