Commanding a submarine?

[Llewellyon]

I know that some persons who start out as Navy officers aboard submarines can end up being captain of a submarine, but is there any particular process for how someone would achieve this position? Is it luck of the draw to get assigned to that position or is it more based on how well you do as a Division Officer? How many years after NUPOC would you have to work in the Navy to achieve such a position? Also, what other positions are available in the Navy for someone coming out of NUPOC as a submarine officer?

[Already Gone]

Think of it as you would any other career progression.  The Navy promotes those who do well from among those who stay in.  A lot of officers finish their obligatory service and get out.  Some by their own choice, others by the Navy's choice.  From those who continue after their initial obligation, most will serve as Department Heads (mostly with the rank of Lieutenant of Lt. Commander), rotating through Navigation, Weapons and Deck, and Engineering.  Essentially, all of those will be qualified as Engineer Officer by that time, but the Engineering Department Head (the Engineer) is a senior position (normally a senior Lieutenant or LCDR).  Following the Engineer tour, is a term as Executive Officer (LCDR or Commander) and then Commanding Officer (Commander or Captain).  Interspersed throughout those assignments are some shore duty billets and opportunities for further education -- graduate school is a possibility.  On a boomer the Weapons Officer is considered a little higher up the food chain than on a fast attack.  By the time you get to command a boat, you will probably have served on both boomers and fast boats.  You will most likely not be in command of any of your first three ships (certainly not the first two), and maybe not your fourth.

From the time a new officer emerges from Sub School until getting to command a sub takes about fourteen to sixteen years minimum.  Assuming that you stay the course and hold command until relieved (that's a polite way of saying that they didn't fire you) you would be eligible to retire at or near the end of your first command tour, but most stay longer.

There is only ONE position offered to a submarine officer upon completion of NUPOC. That is to become the most junior Ensign onboard a sub.  The junior Ensign will basically study his butt off until he (or she) is qualified.  While studying, you will be given increasing levels of responsibility as a Division Officer (they'll start you off small and work you up) A common starting point is as Chem/Radcon Officer, since this is a Division Officer billet that is normally assigned to the Main Propulsion Assistant, who is also a DivO.  It's like having training wheels.  From there, you'll bounce around from Torpedo Div. to perhaps Sonar or Electrical Officer, Communicator, Damage Control Assistant, Main Propulsion Assistant, Reactor Controls Assistant or any other that I forgot to name. You will hold at least two (probably three or more) of those positions over your JO tour, with some being higher up the ladder than others.  There are also collateral duties, such as Diving Officer (in charge of the divers) or First Lieutenant (normally a CPO on a sub unless they have too many JO's and nowhere to put them).
None of the above will be your choice.  You'll go where they put you, and stay there until you prove you are ready for something bigger.  Meanwhile, you will have to qualify as EOOW, DOOW, Surface OOD, and finally OOD before you get your Dolphins.

[Llewellyon]

Thanks for the reply! I was initially going to apply for the NR engineer position in NUPOC, but after looking at the descriptions more as well as the opportunities that were available after the program, I have started to reconsider what I want to do.

I know the last thing I want is a desk job, something that is making me reconsider the NR position, although with a ~3.95 GPA I'm not sure if they would even want me in a sub to begin with. But I also read that all line officers on subs only spend around 2 years at sea followed by 2 years on land. I would like the part at sea, but the part on land makes me feel as if I'll still get stuck with a desk job for 2 years. If I could spend that time going to NPS then perhaps it would not be as bad, but I know how the needs of the Navy works...

I was also somewhat discouraged from applying to NR or instructor due to what I have perceived as a lack of respect in the Navy for officers who are NR or instructor since they did not go through OCS. This also manifests itself as a severe lack of opportunities in the Navy after NUPOC is over for NR engineers and instructors as both are essentially forced into the civilian world after their time is served (to my understanding). While I wouldn't mind a private sector job (and the increased pay that would likely follow) I am still deathly afraid of getting stuck with a desk job.

I don't really have any family that I would need to see on a regular basis (wife, kids, etc.) and the thought of one day commanding my own submarine is an awesome prospect, but I'm still not sure if it's a good fit for me. Thanks again for the input though.

[Already Gone]

OCS is the 90 day wonder.  Direct Input Officers don't even do that?  Well, of course they don't get any respect.  EDO's and NPS instructors are essentially civilians in Navy uniforms.  We saluted them because we had to, but most of them were really decent people and a lot of fun to talk with.
But, it is definitely what you might call a "desk" job.

Why wouldn't they want you on a sub with a 3.95 GPA?  You can make up for your imperfect grades by being a hard worker.  If you have trouble learning the boat, there are plenty of people willing to help you learn.

[Gamecock]

I was also somewhat discouraged from applying to NR or instructor due to what I have perceived as a lack of respect in the Navy for officers who are NR or instructor since they did not go through OCS. This also manifests itself as a severe lack of opportunities in the Navy after NUPOC is over for NR engineers and instructors as both are essentially forced into the civilian world after their time is served (to my understanding).

Incorrect

[Llewellyon]

I was just going off of what I've heard from others. My dad was in the Navy years ago, and his perspective was that officers who didn't go through OCS were considered second-class citizens among officers. As for the lack of opportunities in the Navy after NUPOC, my recruiter said that if you go NR engineer, you can stay on as a civilian doing the same job, but there are no opportunities for you do more work officially in the Navy in the NR engineer position or any other. The argument was that since you're already at a higher paygrade, the Navy doesn't want to pay you your higher pay to train you to do something else when they could just get someone new and train them and pay them less. If any of this doesn't make sense or is incorrect, please let me know. I'm just trying to get as many different sources of information as possible.

The 3.95 GPA isn't to say that it's too low. I guess I'm just thinking if I go up for an interview, they might say, "well, with your GPA, we could really use you as an instructor rather than someone on a sub or ship." After all, it all comes down to what the Navy needs people for. I'm just not sure where they would need me more if they decided they wanted me.

[Already Gone]

1. There are lots of ways to become an officer in the Navy.  None of them come with a sign that says "don't respect me".  An EDO or LDO may have limited options for careers within the Navy, but that doesn't mean that they have limited opportunities within those careers.
2. The Navy doesn't necessarily consider replacing effective officers with cheaper ones.
3. That 3.95 GPA might get you s summa cum laude, but it didn't help you to recognize sarcasm that was at your expense.  Aside from picking up that skill, you'll need to acquire the ability to know when you are inadvertently insulting people so you can refrain from doing it.  Your 3.95 GPA will not, by any means imaginable, distinguish you from a submarine officer.  The Navy doesn't put people in charge of a $2BILLION ship, equipped with a nuclear reactor and enough nuclear firepower to destroy half the life on Earth, because they weren't smart enough or educated enough to teach algebra.  If you become an instructor at NPS, you will find that your fellow instructors are enlisted personnel who have returned from sea service.  The submarine drivers will be your bosses.

[Llewellyon]

I'm sorry if my post was offensive in any way. I did not mean to suggest that I was overqualified for subs. I meant to say that I am unsure what positions the Navy needs persons for and, if they are in more need of instructors rather than ship or sub persons, they might ask me to do that rather than be on a sub. My recruiter told me that on occasion they will offer someone applying for NR an instructor position or someone applying for instructor a ship position based on what they need. I would love to be on a sub and I understand my GPA has little bearing on my ability to one day command a sub and be a leader.

[Already Gone]

Ah! So you have learned your next lesson, Grasshopper.
When writing things on the internet, one must expect them to be read through a lens which will magnify any negative connotations and perceived arrogance.

Next lesson, don't worry too much about where they want to put you.  First, decide what you want to do with your life and follow up opportunities to do it.  Even within our chosen field, there will be more than enough opportunities for the Navy to screw you over for the "needs of the Navy".  So, don't let them give you that crap up front.  Pick a job you want.  Get it in writing or tell them you will look elsewhere.  The point?  They will own you soon enough.  Don't let them own you under conditions other than your own or you'll be freakin' miserable.

Yeah, they are powerful and important, but it's your life.  And, all sarcasm aside, it isn't like a kid with a 3.95 GPA won't be getting some nice offers elsewhere.  You can afford to hold out for a little more than whatever they feel like giving you.  And they know it.

[Llewellyon]

Thanks for the advice. I know my brother experienced the "needs of the National Guard" when he guarded an ammo dump for 18 months after being trained to fly UAVs. Hopefully I won't find myself in a similar situation with NUPOC, but I'll be sure to stay alert.

[Gamecock]

When you go for your interview, you know what position you are interviewing for.  If you want to be a submarine officer, then say it on your application.