Help | Contact Us
NukeWorker.com
NukeWorker Menu Riddle me this...

Author Topic: Riddle me this...  (Read 19173 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TDK1981

Riddle me this...
« on: Jul 08, 2012, 09:47 »
Here it is, middle of the summer and still no work.  I still have not gotten a call for work.  Albeit I am only a Jr. HP, but how can an experienced JR HP(~3500 hours) have a hard time getting outage work? I have been working commercial outages since 2005.  I worked 10 outages as a Jr. deconner, then made the move to JR HP my last 11 outages.  I have been finding it more and more difficult to get work.  Not only am I having to fight new blood getting into these classes or getting credit for their online schooling, but I am having to hurdle recruiters. 
I recently had an experience with a recruiter which has made my blood boil.  I started submitting my resume to this company in early may.  Filled out their little form online of top 4 places I wanted to go, even though I knew I wanted to work at one site for the fall.  I started making the routine phone calls (not my first rodeo, I know how the game is played).  I got an email back from the recruiter only to be approved for a decon position, when I submitted my resume for JR HP.  I called the recruiter back and asked to be resubmitted as a JR HP. The recruiter said they would do that for me. 
Now, here is where it gets interesting.  Right after I got off of the phone with the recruiter, I took the bull by the horns and put the ball into my court. I emailed a house employee at this site with whom I have a great rapport with and told them the situation.  Within an hour I was APPROVED as a JR HP by the site! This was June 5th.  So I then continue to play the game, call the recruiter and email them as well daily.  They claim to not have heard anything back from utility.  I give it a rest for a week after three weeks of harassing them.  A week later I get a call from the recruiter with whom I had been in contact with.  To my amazement when I speak to them, they acted as if it was my first time ever calling the company for work.  They asked me if I was still in the business?? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? I just spoke to you last week!!!! And last I checked I submitted my resume which has my most recent work history! If the recruiter took the time to just look at the fist line of my resume they would see I just worked an outage in June...so yeah I would say I am in the business still. LOL Lastly, they said all JR HP positions were staffed and I had to be put on a back up list.
I understand this company staffs the majority of outages and has an enormous pool of people they deal with on a day to day basis.  I am not trying to give them an excuse but what more can I do to get more work? Every place I have ever worked I have left a good impression based on my work ethic.  I have networked with people at various plants and sadly it is they who I end up having to get ahold of just to get work...not the recruiters!  I give them a chance to do their job and only get burned in the end...or should I say LIED to?

Offline jkj

Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #1 on: Jul 08, 2012, 01:53 »
 Sad to see it hasn't changed in over 30 years. They did the same to me for years. If you go to your connections (which is your best bet IMO), you are accused of going behind the recruiters back and you are a blacklisted scumbag. Truth is, the recruiter is a lying scumbag who doesn't know a thing about you and doesn't care---they'll pee on you and tell you it's raining. They'll tell you what's convenient for them for the moment and forget you the next. Unless you can buddy-up to one of the recruiters personally--I say, if you're young, attempt to go house and forget the road. Easier said than done. Once house, try to improve yourself in anyway you can and then get the hell out of this business entirely. Try not to get discouraged and keep plugging. :)
Words fail me and pictures aren't much better.

"Never take no cut-offs, and hurry along as fast as you can."-- (Virginia Reed; member of Donner party.)

Offline Already Gone

  • Curmudgeon At Large
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1769
  • Total likes: 4
  • Karma: 3387
  • Gender: Male
  • Did I say that out loud?
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #2 on: Jul 08, 2012, 10:30 »
Actually, this sounds like exactly the opposite of the way things have gone for years.  Once upon a time, a Jr HP with 3500 hrs. and a solid record was locked in to his or her favorite plant even before the seniors were.
But, the companies have consolidated and diversified.  You have two or three companies staffing the outages that used to be staffed by six or eight different ones.  They are also chasing QC, EHS, procedure writing, and craft labor.  It's harder to get in cozy with them like the old days.
These days, they fill the ten spots they have with the first ten they can get approved.  They no longer have personal relationships with their people.
Approved as a Jr HP means nothing if they have already filled the Jr HP positions.  It is likely that they already had twice as many people approved as slots to fill.
So, calling your buddy at the site didn't help much.  Chances are that you were approved as a Jr HP even before you made that call.  Fat lot of good that did you if your name was 11th on the list and they only needed 10.  And yes, you DID go behind the recruiter's back.  Did that hurt you?  Not much if they don't even remember who you are.  But still a bad move in the long run if you really want these people (actually you NEED them) to be on your side.
Best strategy to get work?  Call every recruiter on their list and ask, "where do you need me to go?"  Once you have helped them out with their problem, it is perfectly acceptable to ask them to return the favor and help you with yours.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

Content1

  • Guest
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #3 on: Jul 09, 2012, 03:05 »
There are four levels of Techs.  The top one they call you, ask you where you want to go and what shift.  Next level they call you and give you choices  of what is open.  Next level you call them and ask to go somewhere you want.  The last level you call then and take whatever they have you qualify for.  You seem to be there.  Is it fair?  No.  The exception to this is where you are at an outage working, and they have openings ready to fill then, before it goes out to the mob.  What is a good defense if you have nothing?  Be ready and willing to take anything.  Have an alternate career available verses planning to sit on your rear between outages.  We may get to be like ancient Egyptians someday, where they worked building a pyramid when the Nile flooded their farms and were quite skilled in stone work.  When the water dropped, they went back to farming.  Outages may get so short a small group of workers will do something else off-season and arrange it to be able to leave for an outage on short notice.  Then if you do't get to work your world doesn't end, and you get angry and curse the recruiters.  They don't get paid unless you work, so I am sure there is no conspiracy going on.  I find if there are preferences going on, it is with those who are buddy-buddy with the sites who get preference, even if they are not the best.

Offline UncaBuffalo

  • Mostly Retired
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1697
  • Total likes: 15
  • Karma: 4594
  • Not All Who Wander Are Lost
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #4 on: Jul 09, 2012, 08:19 »
Some of the contract companies have a little game they like to play that goes something like this:

1.  They decide which are the 'good outages' and which are the 'bad outages'.
2.  They try to bundle a good outage with a bad outage so they can staff the bad outage.
3.  They offer these bundled outages to their 'loyal' techs first.  (During this time, everyone else gets told an assortment of stories...like your stories of only being submitted as a deconner...and not being approved as a junior yet...  The only way to beat this is to go straight to your contacts at the plant...which you did.  Unfortunately, you also have to pack enough clout to force the contract company to give you the slot you are approved for...which you evidently did not have.)
4.  Once they have staffed what they can with loyal techs who accepted their 'bundled' outages...and techs who were able to bypass their tactics, they then fill in the rest of the slots with whoever they can get.  As you have noted, the junior slots are scarce and there is a huge over-supply of people fighting for them.

Not 'fair' from the technicians' side of the game, but...


Good luck!  :)


modified for grammar
« Last Edit: Jul 14, 2012, 09:39 by UncaBuffalo »
The days that I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days. -Ray Wylie Hubbard

Offline Smart People

  • Rad Engineer/Shipper
  • Gold Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1265
  • Total likes: 2
  • Karma: 2492
  • Gender: Male
  • I like being around smart people
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #5 on: Jul 09, 2012, 08:48 »
They might even remember you later when you call and say "Where can you send me?" They will appreciate you helping them out when they need to fill a position.
Blessed is the man who can laugh at himself--he will never cease to be amused
Think twice and say nothing..Chiun
I'm as big a fool as anyone..And bigger than most.. Odd Thomas

Fermi2

  • Guest
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #6 on: Jul 09, 2012, 10:47 »
But that would do nothing to satisfy the it's all about me syndrome.

Offline Smart People

  • Rad Engineer/Shipper
  • Gold Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1265
  • Total likes: 2
  • Karma: 2492
  • Gender: Male
  • I like being around smart people
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #7 on: Jul 09, 2012, 11:58 »
When Me needs a paycheck, Me goes where the paycheck is.
Blessed is the man who can laugh at himself--he will never cease to be amused
Think twice and say nothing..Chiun
I'm as big a fool as anyone..And bigger than most.. Odd Thomas

Offline RDTroja

  • Site Heretic
  • Gold Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3942
  • Total likes: 163
  • Karma: 4553
  • Gender: Male
  • I knew I got into IT for a reason!
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #8 on: Jul 09, 2012, 12:13 »
My favorite part of this post is the first sentence:

Here it is, middle of the summer and still no work.

I guess I missed out on the part of being a contract RP where summer became a time when you expected to work. Is there now commercial RP work to do in the summer or does someone have some very unrealistic expectations? I used to consider myself very lucky to have work (assuming I wanted it) in June, July or August. While I do understand the desire to work and get past the Jr. RP stage, a little dose of reality would be a good idea. Keep on the recruiters, but don't expect anything to happen before the outage season.
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

Offline Rennhack

Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #9 on: Jul 09, 2012, 12:41 »
When Me needs a paycheck, Me goes where the paycheck is.

That worked for me for 20 years.

Offline tolstoy

Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #10 on: Jul 09, 2012, 06:34 »
I always worked when I wanted to work. But I always ran into people that would have a list of demands as if they were rock stars. Must have days, Saturday off, no drywell no outdoor work, no shipping and no control points and my girlfriend must work and I have to be near her and she must never have to get dressed out.  Usually they were the same people begging to get in and would do anything to be in, and of course would cry at lay off time. Once I switched to the hiring side of the house I would recruit reliable, low maintenance quality techs. Just because a tech wanted a buddy for the job had no influence on my hiring process.

I'm not sure how much this will help the OP but it's a great post with some experienced wisdom. I just left an outage and my exit summary said "Arrives on time. Does excellent work without supervision. Does whatever is asked. Leaves on time and doesn't ask for days off." The coordinator said it was his highest praise. "Low maintenance' as you put it. There's a lot to say for just showing up and doing your job.

Offline Smart People

  • Rad Engineer/Shipper
  • Gold Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1265
  • Total likes: 2
  • Karma: 2492
  • Gender: Male
  • I like being around smart people
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #11 on: Jul 09, 2012, 07:11 »
To my amazement when I speak to them, they acted as if it was my first time ever calling the company for work

I've had recruiters call and ask if I'm interested in work while I'm currently on their payroll for the same plant I'm at.

I've had recruiters email me and ask if I'm qualified for a job with my resume showing my quals in the body of the email.

These guys are usually making and receiving a ton of calls a day. Have some patience when they seem a little confused.

Blessed is the man who can laugh at himself--he will never cease to be amused
Think twice and say nothing..Chiun
I'm as big a fool as anyone..And bigger than most.. Odd Thomas

Offline Eric_Bartlett

  • Heavy User
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
  • Total likes: 25
  • Karma: 951
  • Gender: Male
  • I was liberal as a youth then I had to pay taxes..
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #12 on: Jul 12, 2012, 01:14 »
Here it is, middle of the summer and still no work.  I still have not gotten a call for work.  Albeit I am only a Jr. HP, but how can an experienced JR HP(~3500 hours) have a hard time getting outage work? I have been working commercial outages since 2005.  I worked 10 outages as a Jr. deconner, then made the move to JR HP my last 11 outages.  I have been finding it more and more difficult to get work.  Not only am I having to fight new blood getting into these classes or getting credit for their online schooling, but I am having to hurdle recruiters. 
I recently had an experience with a recruiter which has made my blood boil.  I started submitting my resume to this company in early may.  Filled out their little form online of top 4 places I wanted to go, even though I knew I wanted to work at one site for the fall.  I started making the routine phone calls (not my first rodeo, I know how the game is played).  I got an email back from the recruiter only to be approved for a decon position, when I submitted my resume for JR HP.  I called the recruiter back and asked to be resubmitted as a JR HP. The recruiter said they would do that for me. 
Now, here is where it gets interesting.  Right after I got off of the phone with the recruiter, I took the bull by the horns and put the ball into my court. I emailed a house employee at this site with whom I have a great rapport with and told them the situation.  Within an hour I was APPROVED as a JR HP by the site! This was June 5th.  So I then continue to play the game, call the recruiter and email them as well daily.  They claim to not have heard anything back from utility.  I give it a rest for a week after three weeks of harassing them.  A week later I get a call from the recruiter with whom I had been in contact with.  To my amazement when I speak to them, they acted as if it was my first time ever calling the company for work.  They asked me if I was still in the business?? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? I just spoke to you last week!!!! And last I checked I submitted my resume which has my most recent work history! If the recruiter took the time to just look at the fist line of my resume they would see I just worked an outage in June...so yeah I would say I am in the business still. LOL Lastly, they said all JR HP positions were staffed and I had to be put on a back up list.
I understand this company staffs the majority of outages and has an enormous pool of people they deal with on a day to day basis.  I am not trying to give them an excuse but what more can I do to get more work? Every place I have ever worked I have left a good impression based on my work ethic.  I have networked with people at various plants and sadly it is they who I end up having to get ahold of just to get work...not the recruiters!  I give them a chance to do their job and only get burned in the end...or should I say LIED to?

TDK1981 - I'd normally start off by ask'n ya how you were doing but by your post it's obvious you are not too happy.  Give me a call, it will remain confidential, I need to know some facts to get to the bottom of this - a. who you are, b. what site where you looking to get into & c. who the recruiter was.  With that information I can look into your particular situation and see what happened, how and why - my direct line is 508-591-1289 or just send me a personal message thru nukeworker and I will address the situation for you.   I can not guarentee you will like what i come up with but it will be an honest answer to your situation.

Eric
The opinions & views expressed by me are mine and mine alone and may not reflect those of the company.

HeatherB.

  • Guest
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #13 on: Jul 13, 2012, 09:50 »
Sadly, in this day & age of TECHNOLOGY & COMPUTERS there is really no excuse for a company to not log your calls & know exactly when you were contacted last, what work you were looking for, who you spoke to, whether you're still in the biz or not, etc.etc. There are cheap programs a company can buy just to track calls to & from your phone number, and that data can be crunched before you ever even speak with a recruiter. That level of disorganization & unprofessionalism is unacceptable in the competitive industry these days. (*note to self, make sure to NEVER deal with that recruiter again.)

So what do you do? Take your 3500+ hours (almost a more valuable 18.1 tech, right?) and your resume & a positive attitude to another company. Angry & bitter doesn't help much in this business... just hang in there, offer your services to other companies & get that Sr. time. Then you can cherry-pick outages for your own damn self... and be picky about who treated you right & who you'll work for.

Take a deep breath, and carry on.....  +K

Offline Already Gone

  • Curmudgeon At Large
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1769
  • Total likes: 4
  • Karma: 3387
  • Gender: Male
  • Did I say that out loud?
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #14 on: Jul 14, 2012, 12:51 »
Sadly, in this day & age of TECHNOLOGY & COMPUTERS there is really no excuse for a company to not log your calls & know exactly when you were contacted last, what work you were looking for, who you spoke to, whether you're still in the biz or not, etc.etc. There are cheap programs a company can buy just to track calls to & from your phone number, and that data can be crunched before you ever even speak with a recruiter. That level of disorganization & unprofessionalism is unacceptable in the competitive industry these days. (*note to self, make sure to NEVER deal with that recruiter again.)

So what do you do? Take your 3500+ hours (almost a more valuable 18.1 tech, right?) and your resume & a positive attitude to another company. Angry & bitter doesn't help much in this business... just hang in there, offer your services to other companies & get that Sr. time. Then you can cherry-pick outages for your own damn self... and be picky about who treated you right & who you'll work for.

Take a deep breath, and carry on.....  +K

There are no "cheap" office computer programs.  The software could be free, but installing it, keeping it running without glitches, and training everybody how to use it takes many many hour$$.  Still, it would be worthwhile if anybody really needed to crunch data to know when you called, to whom you spoke, what you were looking for ... but nobody cares to track all that useless information.
These people are not there to serve our whims and outrageous expectations.  They are there to put names on a schedule.  They already have all the software they need for that.
A Jr HP needs only one thing from this or any company -- HOURS WORKED!!!  If you start getting picky about where and when you want to work them, they don't need the drama and they'll stop trying to help you.  The OP is about half-way to being a 3.1.  When he gets there, he will have a lot more options.  A 3.1 can't always have everything his own way, but has a lot more to say about his own assignments than a Jr with 3500 hours does.  Just look at the BNI wish list.  There are a lot of outages this fall that as of now say "Staffing 3.1, Jrs. staffed"  And the big difference between a Jr HP with 3500 hrs. and a Jr. HP with 500 hours is that he is a lot closer to filling one of those 3.1 slots.  The company actually wants  to get that next 2500 hours for you as quickly as possible, but at any given moment their priority is to fill the open slots that they have right now.  Make that too hard for them (by making it all about you) and you're going to have to go to the back of the line behind that 500 hour guy who was willing to go wherever the work is.
What the business has always run on, and always will, is dependability.  We depend on them to put us to work, and they depend on us to show up and do it.  This requires a human element that software and technology can't provide.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

Offline Smart People

  • Rad Engineer/Shipper
  • Gold Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1265
  • Total likes: 2
  • Karma: 2492
  • Gender: Male
  • I like being around smart people
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #15 on: Jul 14, 2012, 01:40 »
Just think. If they send you somewhere new, you might find a new cool plant. or you might find a s*hole. Then you'll have a cool story about that s*hole plant. Then you can join that new exclusive club that we are all members of.
Blessed is the man who can laugh at himself--he will never cease to be amused
Think twice and say nothing..Chiun
I'm as big a fool as anyone..And bigger than most.. Odd Thomas

BetaAnt

  • Guest
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #16 on: Jul 15, 2012, 07:11 »
If only the recruiters would leave a paper trail of some sorts... like an e-mail. The verbal notifications are worth nothing. And then you get.. 'We'll call you back as soon as you're confirmed' BS.  :(

The tech pool is drying up. When the next big accident happens... it will be gone (WMD, RDD or plant accident, paranoia pays well). :)

There may be an opportunity for major D&D work in the Middle East if it gets any hotter. The IDF has ~2 dz nukes and will use them if cornered. :o

Use the SPF 3000 sunscreen when traveling there. 8)

BA 8) 8) 8)

tardvark

  • Guest
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #17 on: Jul 16, 2012, 01:45 »
Dang it, BetaAnt! I've been spending the summer brushing up on my Japanese in case something finally opens up near Fukushima and now you tell me I might have to practice my Hebrew and/or Arabic again?

!!בן זונה

Offline UncaBuffalo

  • Mostly Retired
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1697
  • Total likes: 15
  • Karma: 4594
  • Not All Who Wander Are Lost
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #18 on: Jul 16, 2012, 05:21 »
The tech pool is drying up.

???

From this angle, it looks like the pool is being flooded...tons of schools pumping out techs, plus all the shake-and-bake DOE techs that got made with Obama-bucks...?
The days that I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days. -Ray Wylie Hubbard

Offline Eric_Bartlett

  • Heavy User
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
  • Total likes: 25
  • Karma: 951
  • Gender: Male
  • I was liberal as a youth then I had to pay taxes..
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #19 on: Jul 17, 2012, 10:55 »
TDK1981 - I'd normally start off by ask'n ya how you were doing but by your post it's obvious you are not too happy.  Give me a call, it will remain confidential, I need to know some facts to get to the bottom of this - a. who you are, b. what site where you looking to get into & c. who the recruiter was.  With that information I can look into your particular situation and see what happened, how and why - my direct line is 508-591-1289 or just send me a personal message thru nukeworker and I will address the situation for you.   I can not guarantee you will like what i come up with but it will be an honest answer to your situation.

Eric

TTDK1981, the silence is deafening... - its one thing to throw what I call s*&t bombs then run for cover which your post did - its another to back up your claims with some cold hard facts that I can look into and hold someone accountable.  Please give me a shout with some details.


As always,

Eric
The opinions & views expressed by me are mine and mine alone and may not reflect those of the company.

Offline GLW

Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #20 on: Jul 17, 2012, 11:12 »
TTDK1981, the silence is deafening... - its one thing to throw what I call s*&t bombs then run for cover which your post did - its another to back up your claims with some cold hard facts that I can look into and hold someone accountable.  Please give me a shout with some details.


As always,

Eric

TTDK1981 has not been back since July 9th, at least not as the registered user TTDK1981,...


Perhaps he got a job?!?!?!?!?!?,... 8)

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline Eric_Bartlett

  • Heavy User
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
  • Total likes: 25
  • Karma: 951
  • Gender: Male
  • I was liberal as a youth then I had to pay taxes..
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #21 on: Jul 17, 2012, 04:39 »
TTDK1981 has not been back since July 9th, at least not as the registered user TTDK1981,...


Perhaps he got a job?!?!?!?!?!?,... 8)

Thanks for the update...hopefully I'll hear from him so I can address his concerns...

Take it slow,
Eric
The opinions & views expressed by me are mine and mine alone and may not reflect those of the company.

Offline SloGlo

  • meter reader
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 5749
  • Total likes: 185
  • Karma: 2641
  • Gender: Male
  • trust me, i'm an hp
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #22 on: Jul 18, 2012, 02:47 »
yoe... eric_bartlett and glw

who yinz trying to reach, ttdk1981 or tdk1981?  jest axing.....
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

Offline Smart People

  • Rad Engineer/Shipper
  • Gold Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1265
  • Total likes: 2
  • Karma: 2492
  • Gender: Male
  • I like being around smart people
Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #23 on: Jul 18, 2012, 03:46 »
Don't matter, neither one's been on since June 9
Blessed is the man who can laugh at himself--he will never cease to be amused
Think twice and say nothing..Chiun
I'm as big a fool as anyone..And bigger than most.. Odd Thomas

Offline HydroDave63

Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #24 on: Jul 18, 2012, 03:50 »
Another seagull posting, perhaps...

Offline GLW

Re: Riddle me this...
« Reply #25 on: Jul 18, 2012, 09:00 »
yoe... eric_bartlett and glw

who yinz trying to reach, ttdk1981 or tdk1981?  jest axing.....

ya don't sya nuttin' for weeks ata time and then that's the best you can come back with?!?!?!?!?

jeeeeez slo' jus' go,..I men glo',... :P ;) :) 8)

peace,...nee 1575

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

 


NukeWorker ™ is a registered trademark of NukeWorker.com ™, LLC © 1996-2021 All rights reserved.
All material on this Web Site, including text, photographs, graphics, code and/or software, are protected by international copyright/trademark laws and treaties. Unauthorized use is not permitted. You may not modify, copy, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit or distribute, in any manner, the material on this web site or any portion of it. Doing so will result in severe civil and criminal penalties, and will be prosecuted to the maximum extent possible under the law.
Privacy Statement | Terms of Use | Code of Conduct | Spam Policy | Advertising Info | Contact Us | Forum Rules | Password Problem?