how hot is clean?

[alphadude]

same ole same ole---

[atomicarcheologist]

Yes, you are right, if RESRAD Build tells you for pure C0-60 that your limit is 65K dpm/100cm2, you are still limited by the basic DOE, NRC, EPA guidelines.  That is 5000 dpm/100cm2 fixed for beta emitters, averaged over one square meter and no "hot spot" over 15K dpm/100cm2..  I don't see a way to get around this, and we have found that this is achievable here. 

I am sorry that this is so belated a reply, but I didn't notice this post previously.  I thought these 5K/15K limits were for licensees, and that when License Termination territory was entered, these limits were not necessarily valid.

[Shonkatoys]

I agree that 5000 square meter average and 15,000 100 cm2 is acheivable using the right instruments and set up properly for speed or static counts.  Unfortunately I have seen 2 sites were these levels are not done properly because they are using a floor monitor with about a 600 cm2 probe.  But if the contractor and subcontractors agree to it and DOE can not do the math or know how the instrument works than so be it.  I also have heart burn with the 100 dpm average and 300 cm2 hot spot for low alpha limits.  Like I said before someone rolling this with a floor monitor has to be stupid or lying or both to believe this. 

[atomicarcheologist]

Is this type of survey any worse than someone cruising over a grassy field with a scintillation gamma counter and making MARSSIM work?

[Shonkatoys]

People really need to get their act together to check for what they say they are checking for.  I thought DOE had people smart enough to figure it out or had people that would check to see if survey plans had instruments that could check for MDC.  Also to see if instruments are set up properly.  I seen 2 diffrent sites where they set there instrument up for tech which discriminated against hard betas which was what they were checking for anyway when your in a Uranium environment.  So I guess they do not care or are stupid. Sorry hate to be blunt!  Open up the waste dumps!!!! DOE don't care should be the motto!  Or bring me a Health Psychic (Yes I mean Psychic)and have him bless it with a stick, You can not get any worse than what you are getting now.  Hopefully they will figure it out one of these days, Then what unbury the psychic and stupidly checked stuff? So I guess how hot is clean is what you get away with if no one checks or is too stupid to know the difference.

[atomicarcheologist]

So I guess how hot is clean is what you get away with if no one checks or is too stupid to know the difference.

I'm giong out on a limb here and taking this to mean that you are in accordance with the original 100KDPM/100cm2 Co60 scenario.

[alphadude]

i'm thinkin this horse is dead?

[sweetpea]

i thought the limit depended on who was checking behind you 

[HydroDave63]

been dead,....it's startin' to stink to high heaven now

there is still interest yet in this! 

[Shonkatoys]

Went to a meeting this week where a CHP from a major company was speaking.  He basically said that the state and DOE do not know how to check us so it is our responsibility to check ourselves.  I thought about raising my hand and say obviously your company does not know either, therefore no one has it right.  Sadly, I know that would have got me in trouble and my company so, I kept my mouth shut and will work through other channels to help people get it right.  So Sweetpea is right, so if you have no checkers smart enough to figure it out and your company does not know what it is doing then it just does not matter how hot is clean!    So I guess this topic is over and stinking more ways than one!!!!

[alphadude]

Scoundrels at work again.  I hope Joe wasnt there Shonkatoys to hear this guy speak.

[Shonkatoys]

I was thinking of a fox guarding the hen house on this and the state and DOE watching.  The fox says I got a chicken detector that detects low energy beta white and high energy beta green chickens which are bad, all other colors are good.  But the fox is told that his detector really does not check for high energy green chickens very well, well the fox says the state and DOE do not know how to check for green chickens so it does not matter I will let them out.  Also my 43-37 probe has 6 pens which I will herd my chickens in and average.  But what if all your green and white chickens are in one pen and over the 100 cm2 corral average.  What question averaging my 6 pens the Fox says!  and there you have it.  LOL The Foxs is right!! do not question him. 

[atomicarcheologist]

I would imagine that if you questioned the Fox, you would get an interesting answer.  One scenario question/answer could be;  Mr. Fox, what are you going to do with > the allowable average number of green and white chickens in your six pen 43-37?  Mr. Fox replies, although I have > the allowable average limit , they are still < the maximum number/square meter and this maximum is not in more than one pen of the six, nor do they exceed 0.2 and 1.0 flock limit at 1 cm.

[Shonkatoys]

I can imagine the state checking an area and finding a lot of green chickens in one area with their GM chicken detector and bringing this up to the fox who has a very poor high energy beta green chicken checker.  The fox being the fox he is has many options, He can say

1. We used marssisms and only did 10 percent.  We missed that spot.

2.  Your detector must be calibrated wrong, I know the state has no CHPs,  See my detector shows a lot less on that spot.   Let my CHP tell you what you have done wrong.

3. We averaged that spot out using our 43-37 probe.  Take probe and show it averages out.  Hope state does not figure out maximum 100 cm2 average.

4.  Your instrument also checks for Alphas( Which it does, just not very well) and say I am allowed the max beta and alpha so divide by 2 and average.

5.  We have not got to that spot and will check it shortly, thanks for helping us out.

[atomicarcheologist]

Should the fox have had a good cup of coffee and be ready for this inspector, I can imagine his number one response as  "Perhaps you should remove those sunglasses, sir.  They appear to be tinted with the hue of green predominate in the matrix and have skewed your visual interpretation of the real time situation present.  Those are white chickens, not green, sir."

[raymcginnis]

Pretty funny AA.  I use rose colored glasses now to see the world in a different light.  The chickens all look pink to me now, LOL!  I do know what a white chicken looks like, however, if I take my glasses off.  Good comment on current status of how hot is clean.

[raymcginnis]

AA,

Are you sure that you are not a gifted stage actor, doing Sherlock Holmes, or might you be Sir Arthur Conan Doyle reincarnated?  LOL!  I like your posts, none the less.  Touche.  Keep up the thinking.  You make me think.

[SloGlo]

Pretty funny AA.  I use rose colored glasses now to see the world in a different light.  The chickens all look pink to me now, LOL!  I do know what a white chicken looks like, however, if I take my glasses off.  Good comment on current status of how hot is clean.

   
hay, ray!  saw yer name on the home page list fer threads, 'n hadda stop bye 'n reed dis.  whacha dune, braggeen hare bout yer isite?  hail, iffen eye take oph mie specks, eye kant sea iffen ders enny chickens.  unlease dey bin dun up rite with herbs, spices, 'n a goot basteen!
bttt, remember wan ya could drink coffee outa a fiesta ware cup that coodant be released phrum site?  which puts the how hot is clean ina hole knew lite.... wood dat cup be clean only iffen it went thru a dishwasher that wuz "n" stamped?

[Shonkatoys]

The state or DOE brings a high energy beta green chicken source NIST traceable source to have the fox check.  The fox tells them it is 10,000  since he has a poor high energy beta green chicken checker when it is really 100,000.  The fox has many options,
1. Obviously the source has not been corrected for half life.
2. You must have the wrong certification.
3. Some one must have swiped it and wiped off the Green Chickens.
4.  Your correction factor is wrong.

How hot is clean is how smart or stupid the regulators are.  Being a former regulator I know they do not get paid much or trained enough in Health Physics

[atomicarcheologist]

The state or DOE brings a high energy beta green chicken source NIST traceable source to have the fox check.  The fox tells them it is 10,000  since he has a poor high energy beta green chicken checker when it is really 100,000.  The fox has many options,...

#5.  100,000 what?  This is obviously a trick scenario that you are using, sir, and I shall consult with my legal staff regarding this atomic harassment.

[Rennhack]

"How clean is clean"
http://www.ead.anl.gov/project/dsp_topicdetail.cfm?topicid=21

The RESRAD family of computer codes was developed by EVS to provide a scientifically defensible answer to the question "How clean is clean?" and to provide useful tools for evaluating human health risk at sites contaminated with radioactive residues. The RESRAD methodology was cited in DOE Order 5400.5 for dose assessment and determining guidelines for clean-up of radiologically contaminated sites. The RESRAD codes include (1) RESRAD for soil contaminated with radionuclides; (2) RESRAD-BUILD for buildings contaminated with radionuclides; (3) RESRAD-CHEM for soil contaminated with hazardous chemicals; (4) RESRAD-BASELINE for baseline risk assessment with measured media concentrations of both radionuclides and chemicals; (5) RESRAD-ECORISK for assessment of ecological risk from hazardous chemicals; (6) RESRAD-RECYCLE for recycle and reuse of radiologically contaminated metals and equipment; (7) RESRAD-OFFSITE for off-site receptor radiological dose assessment; and ( 8 ) RESRAD-BIOTA for assessment of radiological dose to biota. Four of these seven codes (RESRAD, RESRAD-BUILD, RESRAD-RECYCLE, and RESRAD-OFFSITE) also have uncertainty analysis capabilities that allow the user to input distributions of parameters.

RESRAD has been widely used in the United States and abroad and has been approved by many federal and state agencies, including the U.S. Department of Energy and the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

[GLW]

Study Tab >> HP/RP/RCT Study >> Moe Handbook (Operational Health Physics Training By H.J. Moe)

dead link,...

[Rennhack]

Updated.