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Offline Marlin

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Good or bad problem
« on: Oct 27, 2012, 02:34 »
Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid Risking Blackout: Energy

Germany is dumping electricity on its unwilling neighbors and by wintertime the feud should come to a head.
Central and Eastern European countries are moving to disconnect their power lines from Germany’s during the windiest days. That’s when they get flooded with energy, echoing struggles seen from China to Texas over accommodating the world’s 200,000 windmills.
 
Renewable energy around the world is causing problems because unlike oil it can’t be stored, so when generated it must be consumed or risk causing a grid collapse. At times, the glut can be so great that utilities pay consumers to take the power and get rid of it.

“Germany is aware of the problem, but there is not enough political will to solve the problem because it’s very costly,” Pavel Solc, Czech deputy minister of industry and trade, said in an interview. “So we’re forced to make one-sided defensive steps to prevent accidents and destruction.”

The power grids in the former communist countries are “stretched to their limits” and face potential blackouts when output surges from wind turbines in northern Germany or on the Baltic Sea, according to Czech grid operator CEPS. The Czechs plan to install security switches near borders by year-end to disconnect from Europe’s biggest economy to avoid critical overload.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-25/windmills-overload-east-europe-s-grid-risking-blackout-energy.html


   Short term it may be a problem long term construction of new wind power could be a married to closed cycle hydro power. There are a few peak load hydro stations now that use excess night time production to pump water up to a reservoir then during peak load reverse the process and the pumps become generators as the water is released. Using this method to solve the excess wind power problem would have to up size the peak load hydro considerably.
   I think they have a solvable problem that would eventually reduce the need for nuclear.

That's just my opinion I could be wrong. D.M.

 [coffee]
« Last Edit: Oct 27, 2012, 02:35 by Marlin »

Offline Frankie Love

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Re: Good or bad problem
« Reply #1 on: Oct 27, 2012, 03:11 »
A side note to the Wind problem, while traveling through Illinois recently on a windy day, I noticed a wind farm inactive. All blades were at a stop while the wind was blowing. Apparently, the turbines can't handle the extra wind power. Sounds counter productive to me...

Offline Marlin

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Re: Good or bad problem
« Reply #2 on: Oct 27, 2012, 03:54 »
A side note to the Wind problem, while traveling through Illinois recently on a windy day, I noticed a wind farm inactive. All blades were at a stop while the wind was blowing. Apparently, the turbines can't handle the extra wind power. Sounds counter productive to me...

apparently true but I suspect that can be overcome too.


http://www.wind-power-program.com/turbine_characteristics.htm
*********************************************************

But then it is easier to overcome problems with wind power than nuclear. Such as the following:

Making Wind Power More Efficient: Lessons from Fish

possible game changer in wind technology with an unlikely inspiration


 
Most of the wind turbines you see driving throughout the deserts and hill country of California look pretty much the same: soaring towers hundreds of feet high with massive, pinwheel-like structures on top, blades churning (or not) as the wind blows (or not).
 
But there’s another design for generating wind power that, if new research proves correct, could eventually become a far more common sight as California ramps up its portfolio of renewable energy. Vertical axis wind turbines look a little like upside-down egg beaters. They tend to be smaller than traditional turbines, and therefore less powerful. But according to John Dabiri, head of Caltech’s Biological Propulsion Lab, they can be far more efficient at generating power than traditional turbines are when they’re used together in just the right way.
 
Dabiri said the problem with standard turbines is that the turbulence or “wake” from the turning of one turbine disrupts airflow and reduces the performance of surrounding turbines.  Locating them within 300 feet of each other can reduce performance by 20-50%, said Dabiri. That means standard wind farms need a lot of land.

Not so with his egg beaters, says Dabiri.


**************************************************
   From my perspective nuclear is very slow to adapt. Bill Gates supports nuclear power because it has a lot of room for innovation and improvement but big companies and big government both move slowly and like large ships are not very maneuverable. There are very few small business's that are in the business such as Robert Bussard who passed away a year after this presentation:


November 9, 2006

ABSTRACT
This is not your father's fusion reactor! Forget everything you know about conventional thinking on nuclear fusion: high-temperature plasmas, steam turbines, neutron radiation and even nuclear waste are a thing of the past. Goodbye thermonuclear fusion; hello inertial electrostatic confinement fusion (IEC), an old idea that's been made new. While the international community debates the fate of the politically-turmoiled $12 billion ITER (an experimental thermonuclear reactor), simple IEC reactors are being built as high-school science fair projects.

Dr. Robert Bussard, former Asst. Director of the Atomic Energy Commission and founder of Energy Matter Conversion Corporation (EMC2), has spent 17 years perfecting IEC, a fusion process that converts hydrogen and boron directly into electricity producing helium as the only waste product. Most of this work was funded by the Department of Defense, the details of which have been under seal... until now.

Dr. Bussard will discuss his recent results and details of this potentially world-altering technology, whose conception dates back as far as 1924, and even includes a reactor design by Philo T. Farnsworth (inventor of the scanning television).

Can a 100 MW fusion reactor be built for less than Google's annual electricity bill? Come see what's possible when you think outside the thermonuclear box and ignore the herd.

Google engEDU
Speaker: Dr. Robert Bussard

Caution video is 92 minutes long

« Last Edit: Oct 27, 2012, 03:57 by Marlin »

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Good or bad problem
« Reply #3 on: Oct 27, 2012, 04:16 »
Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid Risking Blackout: Energy

Germany is dumping electricity on its unwilling neighbors and by wintertime the feud should come to a head.
Central and Eastern European countries are moving to disconnect their power lines from Germany’s during the windiest days. That’s when they get flooded with energy, echoing struggles seen from China to Texas over accommodating the world’s 200,000 windmills.
 
Renewable energy around the world is causing problems because unlike oil it can’t be stored, so when generated it must be consumed or risk causing a grid collapse. At times, the glut can be so great that utilities pay consumers to take the power and get rid of it.

“Germany is aware of the problem, but there is not enough political will to solve the problem because it’s very costly,” Pavel Solc, Czech deputy minister of industry and trade, said in an interview. “So we’re forced to make one-sided defensive steps to prevent accidents and destruction.”

The power grids in the former communist countries are “stretched to their limits” and face potential blackouts when output surges from wind turbines in northern Germany or on the Baltic Sea, according to Czech grid operator CEPS. The Czechs plan to install security switches near borders by year-end to disconnect from Europe’s biggest economy to avoid critical overload.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-25/windmills-overload-east-europe-s-grid-risking-blackout-energy.html


   Short term it may be a problem long term construction of new wind power could be a married to closed cycle hydro power. There are a few peak load hydro stations now that use excess night time production to pump water up to a reservoir then during peak load reverse the process and the pumps become generators as the water is released. Using this method to solve the excess wind power problem would have to up size the peak load hydro considerably.
   I think they have a solvable problem that would eventually reduce the need for nuclear.

That's just my opinion I could be wrong. D.M.

 [coffee]

It is a significant problem, which could easily be solved by sectionalizing buses within each major wind project, and thus remove some generating capacity from service. But what developer wants to pay more to add control circuitry and switching equipment? And what ISO or transmission provider has the backbone to require it in order to connect the project? None, either in Europe or the US. Reliability gets the "I got mine, you get yours somewhere else" treatment. High frequency can have adverse effects on steam turbine blading tips, excess vibration, etc. Wind power push is common in the spring, when the weather is milder, and power draw is less than peak, so there are issues with overvoltage on long lightly loaded lines causing flashover arcing on insulators. It might sound like a short-term problem, but to the operator(s) in the turbine building when blades break, are thrown through the casing and a toasty hydrogen fire, it is a very real issue. Hence, why the Czechs are willing to open the lines than take the free power.
« Last Edit: Oct 27, 2012, 04:31 by HydroDave63 »

Offline HydroDave63

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Re: Good or bad problem
« Reply #4 on: Oct 27, 2012, 04:30 »
A side note to the Wind problem, while traveling through Illinois recently on a windy day, I noticed a wind farm inactive. All blades were at a stop while the wind was blowing. Apparently, the turbines can't handle the extra wind power. Sounds counter productive to me...

apparently true but I suspect that can be overcome too.


http://www.wind-power-program.com/turbine_characteristics.htm
*********************************************************


Frankie's observation dovetails with your graph nicely. At high wind speeds, the wind turbine declutches, to avoid excess vibrations inside the hub and overdriving the voltage controller. Some manufacturers design the hub to feather the blades and stop the unit until the winds come back to acceptable speed.

Verticals are cool, but they'll find out the hard way that when they are carrying significant load in stiff wind, there is going to be longitudinal vibration all over the place, due the force of the wind at the top of the rotor being greater than the force of the wind on the bottom of the rotor.
« Last Edit: Oct 27, 2012, 04:43 by HydroDave63 »

 


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