Going to College(Engineering) vs Enlisting Navy Nuke

[retired nuke]

I am not going to lie, one of the main reasons I was looking into enlisting nuke was because of the money. It seems that working in operations is very stable on top of a great hourly wage plus OT. As I've read you can make more being an operator vs an engineer (although I have been planning on being an engineer for awhile now) because of the OT that is offered to work. I come from a middle class family with aspirations to make a high 5 figure/6 figure salary eventually, so money is important to me as well as job satisfaction (working in a technical math/science field).

Ideally, who's is better shape for gettin a job in operations. A 6 and outer nuke, or an engineering degree holder? Additionally, What career progression is offered to those with engineering degrees vs those with navy ops/technician experience?

OK, this is an opinion from an experienced (30+ yrs) non-operator, non-navy nuke.
Engineering degree and Navnuke training are barely comparable. Navy teaches you to do what you are told the way they tell you how to do it.. Engineering helps you learn how and why you are doing this, and how to improve it.
I have seen many ex-navy (all flavors, incl the vaunted ELT) - they point at something wrong and report it. When they suggest an improvement, it usually involves less work for them (and often more work for others)
I have worked with many engineers - they see something wrong and start making notes on ideas to fix it.
Officers behave more like engineers (that's what they are).
There are exceptions.
Engineers that start as engineers, then go to OPS, go to SRO. They may not "know" where all the valves are, but often have a better understanding of the big picture than AOs going to RO to SRO.
The progression time for each is similar - but a 6 and outer will be AO - RO - SRO - about 8-10 yrs if you have people skills.
Engineer - system engineer - engineering projects - SRO - same 8-10 yrs, except most of it is M-F days, with weekends off.

Good luck.

[GLW]

.....I come from a middle class family with aspirations to make a high 5 figure/6 figure salary eventually, so money is important to me as well as job satisfaction (working in a technical math/science field).....

If a high five figure breaking into six figures is your aspiration either path will get you there in nuclear or nuclear related work,...

The typical six and out into ops as an NLO can be pretty steady and predictable,...and limiting,...

If you want to settle down into a good job with good benefits and pretty much stay at home for 30 years and raise 2.3 kids with a stepford mom plus a better than average chance of a decent retirement that's not a bad route,...

You can even get your college paid for should you elect to squeeze that engineering degree in later and expand your horizons a bit,...

All that and be pretty sure you will enjoy the idealized American middle class dream of a nice home, two car garage, pontoon party barge for the summer holidays, sending the kids on to higher education, and a change of life muscle car under a tarp parked in the add-on carport,...

An engineering degree (and those have their own hierarchy, starting somewhere at civil and topping out somewhere at chemical) can get you all of the above with a significantly greater commitment on your part:

• the Navy will force you to succeed or punish you; the engineering school could not care less if you fail out
  
• Navy Nuclear Power Pipeline is intently focused on a condensed syllabus and specific curriculum of theoretical knowledge and practical application; the engineering school is, in simple speak, a lot broader and a lot more involved both in syllabus and curriculum

So, it is really up to you, you have to balance how much you want to invest and what you want your options to be as life moves on,...

If you six and out you will most likely achieve that lifestyle description you mentioned earlier without all that great an investment on your part,...

If you go through an engineering discipline you will achieve the same with a greater personal and financial commitment, plus the greater likelihood of failure while incurring those financial commitments which will remain even after your failure,...

Should you succeed in gaining an engineering degree you future prospects will be enhanced,.... statistically,...

Many if not most, of the highest paid people you may ever get to know do not acquire hard degrees while in university, some of them do not even possess higher education degrees of any sort, other than their honorary ones...

The people with the hard degrees tend to work for the most highly paid people,...

Then again, those hard degrees will help you fall back on a government job should all else fail,...

You never know when "they" may pull a Kewaunee, Maine Yankee, Connecticut Yankee, Crystal River, et al on ya',...

I am interested in entering the nuclear/power industry, and I just wanted to ask a question for those working in the industry right now. If you had to do it all over again, what path would you take?....

To answer your original question,...

The NNPP is the most likely success path to get into the nuclear reactor generated, electricity to the grid business,...

You get trained, you get paid while you get trained, it's pretty easy to earn the NEC, you will demonstrate the ability to earn and keep a security clearance, the ability to perform in an applied engineering environment, and the ability to follow policies, protocols and procedures,...

The engineering degree will demonstrate you are smart and capable, it does not demonstrate the ability to earn and keep a security clearance, the ability to perform in an applied engineering environment, and the ability to follow policies, protocols and procedures,...

If it did, those two PhD's would not have blown out their own eyeballs working within the government laser lab while knowingly violating all posted and proscribed safety rules for working with said laser(s),...

Ergo, commercial nuclear power reactors are not research labs, you get credit for being smart enough, you do not get extra credit for being extra smart,...

[GLW]

Your example is an exception that proves the rule.....

So is yours, which was the point,...

Yea, well, in 1988 you could grad high school, go to full-time work and make enough to support a family in about 5-10 years.....

Unless you were supporting a family* on a single wage earner, unsubsidized income, with nothing more than a high school diploma in 1993 to 1998, in any but a few exceptional workplaces, your counter retort is unfounded,...

It also smacks of being conspicuously contexted in it's specious slant spekkio,...

Heads up here, yours' is not the first generation to deal with less than stellar economic conditions,...

I suspect that at one point or another they all do,...

All in all, we thank you for your service, and that is sincere,...

* family defined as two parents and > 2.3 children

[spekkio]

Unless you were supporting a family* on a single wage earner, unsubsidized income, with nothing more than a high school diploma in 1993 to 1998, in any but a few exceptional workplaces, your counter retort is unfounded,...

It's not unfounded at all.

Growing up among my friends (I graduated high school in '01), only one of us had a parent with a 4-year degree (ironically the only one who was an only child). The rest of our fathers had high school education and that's it. Some of our mothers had two year degrees (e.g. nursing), but not many. My father supported 4 children and put my mom through graduate school. He started in construction before the Italian mafia figured out illegal Latinos were cheaper employees and moved to law enforcement for a steady paycheck and medical benefits for 4 children. If you want his job now, you need at least an associate's and some precincts require a bachelor's. One of my friend's dad managed a diner and supported 3 children after he immigrated from Greece (wife maintained the home) -- good luck getting that job now without some flowery restaurant management degree. Another was a bus driver (his wife was the nurse). Another worked at the post office. My wife's dad was a mechanic without any college education. Showed up with a willingness to turn a wrench and learn from the boss, no connections, no associate's in 'automotive technology.' Try to get a job like that today and you will get laughed out of the shop. This trend of requiring employees to have more education than they required 20-30 years ago is on the rise, not just in law enforcement or management, but in all careers. Times change.

Dual income was fairly common. I wasn't saying the person had to be a single earner, but the employment outlook for someone with a high school education is conserably worse than it was in the late 80s/early 90s. I'm a bit lazy to look up the exact numbers but I think we can both agree that significantly fewer people entering the work force had four year degrees 20-30 years ago.

Additionally, real income has fallen dramatically in the last 20 years while housing costs have risen. I could not imagine supporting four children on $40k/year on Long Island like my father did. He bought his first house for $180k in 1992. He sold it at $330k 11 years later.

Finally, in the early-mid 90's we didn't have cable, high speed internet, family cell phone plans, etc. Some people had basic cable but it was not the norm. I grew up in a fairly typical middle class suburbia, too. All our families had the ability to buy sports equipment for us, enroll us in leagues, pay for whatever lessons, etc. despite not having college educations. Families pay for a lot more subscription services that either weren't available or weren't popular in the 90's.

Put this all together and you'd be hard pressed to support a family in 2013, even dual income, with two people who are only high school/vocational school educated. You don't have to take my anecdotal evidence for it -- look up real income today vs. 1988-1995 for people with high school degrees. A recent survey finds that the average suburban home owner thinks they need to make $60k/year to make ends meet. That means you need to have two wage earners if you make the median income with a 4-year degree (~$38k/year).

But hey, I must've made all that up because it's unfounded. Also, you can dig rocks up in a quarry in North Dakota, so forget college.

[MacGyver]

Finally, in the early-mid 90's we didn't have cable, high speed internet, family cell phone plans, etc. Some people had basic cable but it was not the norm. I grew up in a fairly typical middle class suburbia, too. All our families had the ability to buy sports equipment for us, enroll us in leagues, pay for whatever lessons, etc. despite not having college educations. Families pay for a lot more subscription services that either weren't available or weren't popular in the 90's.

Put this all together and you'd be hard pressed to support a family in 2013, even dual income, with two people who are only high school/vocational school educated. You don't have to take my anecdotal evidence for it -- look up real income today vs. 1988-1995 for people with high school degrees. A recent survey finds that the average suburban home owner thinks they need to make $60k/year to make ends meet. That means you need to have two wage earners if you make the median income with a 4-year degree (~$38k/year).

But hey, I must've made all that up because it's unfounded. Also, you can dig rocks up in a quarry in North Dakota, so forget college.

I guess hard work is dead?  What's wrong with working in a quarry (or the like)?

For a Sub Officer you don't listen very well.  Or for that matter speak with authority on any subject I've read.

Personally I expect better from you, even more as an O'ganger.

My dad and his brothers (all five of them) learned a trade.  As tradesmen they made enough to prosper, all with at least four children each, as single providers with stay at home wife.  This time span would have been 70's thru late 90's.  So you are wrong.

These men had zero college (except my dad had an A.S.).  I guess hard work and a skill do just fine then,,, and now.

My brothers all have an A.S. and a high tech skill.  None of them have a wife that works.  None of there kids go without. 

The rest of my cousins, the same.  High School educated and doing just fine on one income.

I guess some traditions are doing just fine here in the south.

You have zero civilian work experience, do I have that correct?  If so maybe you should tone down your uneducated advice.

Thanks in advance.

Mac

[GLW]

Where to start

....Growing up among my friends (I graduated high school in '01),.....

Most kids graduate high school around 18 years of age,...

If you were the first and oldest, and if your parents started their family a couple of years after they graduated high school that would put your father in the graduating class of 1980,...

Your father did not do this,...

 

Yea, well, in 1988 you could grad high school, go to full-time work and make enough to support a family in about 5-10 years......

By 1988 your father was well into his 5 to 10 years, the 5 to 10 from your post is essentially a decade later, 1993 to 1998,...

....He started in construction before the Italian mafia figured out illegal Latinos were cheaper employees and moved to law enforcement for a steady paycheck and medical benefits for 4 children. If you want his job now, you need at least an associate's and some precincts require a bachelor's. One of my friend's dad managed a diner and supported 3 children after he immigrated from Greece (wife maintained the home) -- good luck getting that job now without some flowery restaurant management degree. Another was a bus driver (his wife was the nurse). Another worked at the post office. My wife's dad was a mechanic without any college education. Showed up with a willingness to turn a wrench and learn from the boss, no connections, no associate's in 'automotive technology.' Try to get a job like that today and you will get laughed out of the shop....

All these dads whose children were contemporaries of yours were entering the workplace in the late seventies to early eighties, your time frame for change is after these dads were in the workplace and established,...

....This trend of requiring employees to have more education than they required 20-30 years ago is on the rise, not just in law enforcement or management, but in all careers. Times change.....

20-30 years ago would be 1983 to 1993,...

....Additionally, real income has fallen dramatically in the last 20 years while housing costs have risen. I could not imagine supporting four children on $40k/year on Long Island like my father did. He bought his first house for $180k in 1992.....

Interesting, I was working on Long Island in 1992, unionized construction workers and cops on Long Island were among the highest paid in the nation in the 1990's. Then again, many things were among the highest in the nation on Long Island in 1992. I do not doubt your father was only earning 40K per year at some point, but to qualify for a $180,000 home in 1992 before the CRA revamp of 1995 would have required better than a 40K per annum level of compensation, I know because I bought a home in 1992.

...Finally, in the early-mid 90's we didn't have cable, high speed internet, family cell phone plans, etc. Some people had basic cable but it was not the norm....

Cable with all the bells and whistles available has been the norm since about 1985, and definitely on Long Island circa early - mid 90's, at least out in Wading River and Riverhead,...

....That means you need to have two wage earners if you make the median income with a 4-year degree (~$38k/year).

But hey, I must've made all that up because it's unfounded. Also, you can dig rocks up in a quarry in North Dakota, so forget college.

Well hey, the no experience median wage for a North Dakota oil rig laborer is $33,280 without any college loans to pay back,...

With experience that wage grows to $41,600 per year with the best paid getting $51,090 per year...

All before overtime,...

And your ~$38K/year is biased low to support your retort, the census bureau places the median at $44,676/year for all degrees, and the mean at $65,403/year; the tens of thousands of basket weavers working at Starbucks, and the several thousand chemical engineers working at Dow, the large majority of all of them stuck with paying back student loans,...

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032011/perinc/new01_001.htm

No one here advised the OP to forget college, but there may be smarter ways to pay for it than to hang yourself on the student loan cross and then claim martyrdom afterwards,...

The OP stated an interest in working at a nuclear power station, not designing one,...

Just because you are 22 years old with a brand new degree and $40,000 in student loan debt does not mean you are worth $40,000/year,...

Perhaps if we're talking MIT, RPI, CIT, U of M or another top 50, otherwise,...

Maybe, after you show me something, in four or five years,...

Back in the day, a college education was special,...

Well, if everybody has one, it kinda tarnishes the whole "special" aspect,...

[spekkio]

For a Sub Officer you don't listen very well.  Or for that matter speak with authority on any subject I've read.

My dad and his brothers (all five of them) learned a trade.  As tradesmen they made enough to prosper, all with at least four children each, as single providers with stay at home wife.  This time span would have been 70's thru late 90's.  So you are wrong.

These men had zero college (except my dad had an A.S.).  I guess hard work and a skill do just fine then,,, and now.

. Well, you don't read very well since your statement abot your father and his brothers learning a trade is exactly the same is what I posted before you. I don't know how you could say "I am wrong" when you are detailing people getting well-paying jobs without college degrees in the same time period I am.

I also had quite a bit of civilian employment experience pre-Navy -- I did not commission straight out of college. But I will say that my career outlook with a BS in biology certainly influenced my decision.

By 1988 your father was well into his 5 to 10 years, the 5 to 10 from your post is essentially a decade later, 1993 to 1998,...

Well, if you must really know... at one point he was my "step" father and in 1983 to 1988 he was working on a boat as a mate and doing drugs in his spare time until he "shaped up" and started dating my mom.

All these dads whose children were contemporaries of yours were entering the workplace in the late seventies to early eighties, your time frame for change is after these dads were in the workplace and established,...

Are you implying there was a step-change in employment trend and % of people with 4-year degrees in the mid-80s. If so, what year was it? '85? '86? '87? Your original post said someone who graduated high school in 1988... is there really a big difference between someone who was looking for work in the early 80s vice late 80s?

I contend the shift to such a large portion of people having a 4 year degree happened somewhere around 10 years after 1988.

20-30 years ago would be 1983 to 1993,...

Yep, the original time period you posted +/- five years.

Interesting, I was working on Long Island in 1992, unionized construction workers and cops on Long Island were among the highest paid in the nation in the 1990's. Then again, many things were among the highest in the nation on Long Island in 1992. I do not doubt your father was only earning 40K per year at some point, but to qualify for a $180,000 home in 1992 before the CRA revamp of 1995 would have required better than a 40K per annum level of compensation, I know because I bought a home in 1992.

First, he wasn't in a unionized construction company. Second, dual income. Third, borrowed money from grandparents in order to make down payment high enough to get the mortgage. Mother quit her job in nursing when my dad went into law enforcement in 1994 because they couldn't both be at work on holidays. But yes, when my mom quit her job to go back to school my dad's salary was the $40-50k range after OT/night diff.

I believe that is among the highest in the nation then, as it still is now (he makes over $120k/yr as a sgt now), but that's not the point. The point is that at $40-50k/year, it would be difficult for me to support a family of 6 on LI considering the property values/taxes in 2013. The point is also that one could not get employment doing what he does now without some college education.

Cable with all the bells and whistles available has been the norm since about 1985, and definitely on Long Island circa early - mid 90's, at least out in Wading River and Riverhead,...

It's been around, but not the norm. Look up the numbers. It also depends on where on LI you are talking about...south shore Nassau, not very common until mid-late 90s. And even if it was more popular than I claim (which it wasn't), it doesn't refute the point that Americans subscribe to more monthly services in 2013 than they did in 1988 or 1993.

And your ~$38K/year is biased low to support your retort, the census bureau places the median at $44,676/year for all degrees, and the mean at $65,403/year; the tens of thousands of basket weavers working at Starbucks, and the several thousand chemical engineers working at Dow, the large majority of all of them stuck with paying back student loans,...

We're not talking about all degrees; we're talking about high school vs. 2 year vs. 4 year. Like above with your shift from 1988 to suddenly the mid 90s, you are trying to change the topic to still be right. Your numbers are biased high because the median includes Master's and PHDs. Additionally, you can't use the average because really high wage earners (e.g. doctor's, small business owners) bias that number high.

[hamsamich]

Talked to a couple managers and an engineer at a plant I was recently at.  Seems like some of the engineer jobs aren't as "plum" as they used to be.  Starting to get used and abused MORE since they are exempt, working 60 hour weeks without OT pay in some cases.  The only way to shield yourself from the "more with less" attitude at some plants is to stay in a job with a high hourly wage non-exempt.

Anyway, getting a nuclear engineering degree is probably a good idea, but not nesc. being an engineer proper at a nuclear plant.  Probably depends on the plant.

It is usually a trade off with different pros and cons. Shift work (ops) vs 9-5 (eng) is one example, but is the 9-5 truly 9-5?  There really are no easy answers, and some things change faster than others, plus the TYPE of shiftwork changes things also.  So as far as "Ideal Path", much different depending on plant/job.

[GLW]

....We're not talking about all degrees; we're talking about high school vs. 2 year vs. 4 year. Like above with your shift from 1988 to suddenly the mid 90s, you are trying to change the topic to still be right. Your numbers are biased high because the median includes Master's and PHDs. Additionally, you can't use the average because really high wage earners (e.g. doctor's, small business owners) bias that number high.

the census bureau numbers in the referenced link are for four year degrees,...

my "all degrees" was bounded and defined by the statement "the tens of thousands of basket weavers working at Starbucks, and the several thousand chemical engineers working at Dow", which implies four year degrees as they have been the ongoing topic of conversation, you inferred doctors and others as it buttresses your paradigm shift while alleviating yourself the accountability of researching the footnotes per se,...

I'm a bit lazy to look up the exact numbers,...

so it would seem,...

.....Like above with your shift from 1988 to suddenly the mid 90s, you are trying to change the topic to still be right......

that would be you pal,...

it's been fun, but it's time to move on,...

just like me and the Navy,...

[HydroDave63]

If you were the first and oldest, and if your parents started their family a couple of years after they graduated high school that would put your father in the graduating class of 1980,...

it's been fun, but it's time to move on,...

just like me and the Navy,...

[/youtube]

[GLW]

[/youtube]

Nice, but 1980 was the year I enlisted,...

I EAOS'd in '88, that DD-214 was about the most irresistible thing I put my eyes on that year,...

This ran a close second, maybe third, in 1988,...

[HydroDave63]

I guess some traditions are doing just fine here in the south.

On-topic: There are a lot of good points made here. Having been rejected for jobs solely due to lack of a degree in the past, I'd recommend Navy Nuke enlisted, get out and GI Bill a degree as soon as you can. However, reply #22 by spekkio does have some counterpoints to consider.

[hamsamich]

Hydro's last comment and spekkio#22 are in my opinion the way to go.  Easy answer is Hydro, if you want to do your research and take the time to figure out what's best for you, go spek#22.  I don't think I would have gotten much out of the college experience at age 20.

[spekkio]

I'm a bit lazy to look up the exact numbers,...

so it would seem,...

Way to take it out of context, since those "numbers" I was referring to were % of job seekers with 4 year degrees in 1980 vs. 1988 vs. 2013. As far as median income level, I have researched those numbers and yours are biased high. But let's go with your median of $44k/year for a 4 year degree...it only reinforces the fact that people with 4 year degrees make significantly more than those without. You are only strengthening my position but quibbling over the details of why my position is what it is.

And I do like how you decided not to answer my very direct question on when you think the shift to an emphasis on employees having a 4 year degree occurred, since you seemed to imply that it occurred prior to 1988 but after 1980 when you dismissed my generation's parents experiences with finding employment and supporting families as if doing so in 1980 was a world apart from 1988.

So to recap...

-We both think the GI Bill can be a good alternative to help pay for college.
-We both think that one's employment outlook and earning potential is better with a 4 year degree than no degree, albeit with some exceptions.
-We both think that one needs more experience, whether Navy or otherwise, than just a diploma to earn good money, albeit with some exceptions.
-We both think the employment environment is different today than it was in 1993, 1988, or 1980.

We will simply have to agree to disagree about agreeing it seems.

And MacGyver will be happy to know that I actually enjoyed a couple of brews tonight (unlike last night) and managed to post without spelling errors. I'm sure he'll find something to negative rep for me over, though, because that really matters in life.

As GC says, cheers.

[sllon1]

As far as just working in operations goes, what is more valuable: an engineering degree or being a 6 and outer nuke? From this thread, its obvious that an engineering degree opens up more doors, but does the typical hiring manager look for those who were ex-navy more so than those who are engineering degree holders? I am definitely leaning towards school more than enlisting, because I know I can apply myself and do well, and on top of that I've read some not-so-great things about the present navy nuclear power school and the fleet.

[hamsamich]

If you are truly ready for college I would go that route....might want to hedge your bet and minor in petroleum engineering?  Is that even posssible?