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scruffy

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #25 on: Dec 08, 2004, 11:15 »
"The day they got promoted to a "real" division officer job, we got them into the nuc lab and pantsed 'em"

we put their mattress in the freezer after we soaked in with water got several admonishments from the XO when he could keep from from laughing and you dont even want to know what we did to midshipmen

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #26 on: Dec 08, 2004, 12:00 »
is it better to be an MM, study real hard, do real well and then hope to get picked up as an ELT?

By better I mean more challenging, more interesting or varied shipboard duties, better job oppurtunities if/when I decide to leave the Navy?

Thanks in advance for any input anyone here has.

To help get back to the point of this thread, I have included the original question.

My input is that you are better off with an IMA (tender, NSSF, TRF, LMLOP) RADCON tour in the middle of any of the options. You will have the opportunity to perform RADCON or Nuclear Repairs (maybe even both!) in a different environment than the sub. The CVN's have their own IMA, so you could get an assignment there but it wouldn't be my advice.

An EM / MM / ET with a RADCON tour is in good shape for transfer to commercial HP. Just make sure you are getting out soon afterwards, or you will get stuck in that billet again for your next shore duty!
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Offline darkmatter

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #27 on: Dec 10, 2004, 04:59 »
To the original question by latenuke, I was a ELT, so I'm slanted toward that way as a career choice.

A far as the dispute between scruffy and beer court. I see a Temporal Rift in their perspective. I date from the 70's in the Nuke Navy fast attack sub and we worked more like scruffy's description then beer court's lounge around sluggo lifestyle. (sorry beer court, that just the way I see it, no real malice intended)
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Offline Already Gone

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #28 on: Dec 10, 2004, 07:21 »
I don't know if I'd call it lounge-around sluggo lifestyle that I got to slack off ONLY when everybody else was, and had to carry the same M Div. load as all the other MM's before they let me do my primary duty.  I didn't consider it a vacation that I spent most weeks in-port getting no sleep at all every third day and working from 0600 to 1900 the other two.

I wonder who was cleaning the ERLL bilges while scruffy was sitting in the sonar shack.  On my boats that was the prerequisite to doing any RL Div work.  I can't figure out why he had to be ELT and ERS at once when the ERS watch (a total waste of manpower except for startup and shutdown) was secured most of the time.

I didn't choose to be a MM or an ELT.  I was simply told that I would be.  At the time, it didn't really matter.  But, anyone who is given a choice should not be biased by the opinion of this (predominantly HP/RP) forum.  We all went one way, but that doesn't mean that it is the best way.  After all, ET's "stood" most of their watches in a chair.  Their uniforms didn't get too dirty.  None of their equipment was under a half a foot of oily water, and didn't contain any dead marine creatures.  When they get out, they can fix computers instead of surveying reactor cavities.  The only civilian job that ELT "qualifies" you for is a job that any Navy nuke can get because essentially anyone who can operate a Masslinn mop is already on this career track.
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mattrev

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #29 on: Dec 10, 2004, 09:54 »
I don't know if I'd call it lounge-around sluggo lifestyle that I got to slack off ONLY when everybody else was, and had to carry the same M Div. load as all the other MM's before they let me do my primary duty.  I didn't consider it a vacation that I spent most weeks in-port getting no sleep at all every third day and working from 0600 to 1900 the other two.

I know my schedule as ELT was a lot different than yours. No way we could get that much sleep in a day. We were up at 2300. Primary, source checks, morph add on the 00-06. Drills on the 06-12 (every day except Tues (field day), Sat & Sun), Training, surveys or quals on the 12-18. 18-23 was for sleep. Sometimes he could catch some extra sleep or a movie on sat or sunday if we weren't doing ORSE or TRE workups (the last half of every patrol).

I couldn't wait to get off ELT & stand an MO watch. Best time I had was standing the 00-06 EWS every night and running drills on the 06-12 (ships drill coordinator) my last 2 patrols.

Had to love that 8 section EDPO duty in port too. ;-)
« Last Edit: Dec 10, 2004, 09:59 by Gone Sailin' »

Offline Already Gone

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #30 on: Dec 10, 2004, 10:32 »
It's all about time management, my friend.  The trick is to never be doing one thing when you can be doing two.  Never pass by one job on the way to another.  If you're going to do a weekly survey, catch the daily at the same time instead of doing them in sequence.  Efficiency can cut the daily routine of the ELT down to about two and a half hours.  The rest is for periodic stuff like surveys, reading TLD's, PM's etc.  That should take less than four hours per day (on average).  Quals doesn't take any time when you're already qualified.  For some reason, I must have been on the only three subs that didn't qualify everyone as EWS.  It was not an option.  You didn't get to start the EWS card until you were given one.  Since there were already too many, we had to wait in line for someone to transfer off.  I always hated those jerks who refused to stand the other watches after they qualified EWS.  There were plenty of dog-tired lower level watches and a lot of rack back EWS's.

Not that this is aimed at you, but if every ex nuke who claims to have been an EWS actually was one, there would have been nobody in the whole fleet standing Engineroom Lower Level, AEA, or Reactor Technician. (As I said above: once an EWS, never stand ERLL again.)  Since most of us did six and out, less than half of us were ever senior enough to get the EWS card.  And still there were too damned many of them.

Running drills four days a week, six hours a day is one hell of a good way to piss off the crew.  It is also not practical when you're too busy sneaking up on a Russian to be making all that noise. I guess if you're doing nothing but turning circles, and you have the fast attacks to protect you, you can thrash about all you want.  It's not like Ivan would have been able to find you anyway.  (The people who make Polish jokes never heard of the Soviet Navy)
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mattrev

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #31 on: Dec 10, 2004, 11:48 »
Being on an FBM meant a few extra surveys associated with those things that may or may not have been there.  ;-)
Missle compartment surveys (weekly) tended to take a couple hours. We also were responsible for all the hot line equimpent inventories.

Like I said, we gave the ELT to the newest guys. That was the first thing we qualified. It was expected to be qualified BEQ, ERLL &, ERF by the end of the first patrol (not to mention SS). Not a lot of extra time. Once the guys were fully qualified, it tended to be better. I never wanted to stand it again though.

The CO's policy on our boat was all LPO's and leading 1st's were to be EWS qualified.  Being the LELT meant I didn't have a choice. We were only 4 section anyways. The only person who (sometimes) came off the watchbill was the bull (and he stood his fair share considering his other responsibilities). The LPO's were the only ones standing EWS at the time I did.

As for drills, nothing noisy when on alert. FI's, Emer. RC entrys, spills, dump half the ER, stuff like that. But we had to do it since we only had 2.5 months to get ready for a major inspection. We had either an ORSE,r TRE  or TRE/TCP at the end of every patrol.

And we didn't need any fast boat. You couldn't hear us anyways. I recall one instance on a Super Bowl sunday. Playing games with some SSN, CO got tired of it & put us shallow with a wire out so we could catch the game. Meanwhile, there's an SSN below us going all over the place trying to find us (but can't) since we're not running pumps. They were not happy, but couldn't do anything since our CO was so senior.

Offline Marlin

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #32 on: Dec 11, 2004, 09:42 »
   Well Latenuke it seems you have more information than you really need. We had a term for this kind of disparity in experience... "Ustafish". Tours on a ship lasted about three years then you were transfered, there was always comparisons made to someones last assignment. It was better, it was worse, and then of course nothing ever changes. (Sounds like a break room during an outage come to think of it).
   My experiences spanned 1970 to 1978. When I enlisted they were offering M-16s and a swamp to new high school grads, we were always fully manned. When I qualified EWS in 1975 which is normally a more senior watch station with more perks, the draft had ended and retention dropped. I found myself dragging my feet on completing my EWS quals until the M-Div chief threatened to make me port and starboard EWS trainee under his instruction. I found myself on a three section watch bill or less for most of the rest of my service. Well thats my "Ustafish" story you will hear plenty more.

taterhead

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #33 on: Dec 11, 2004, 01:11 »
If I am not mistaken, this whole thread has only covered the sub side of MM-ELT and ET.

In my carrier experience, the ETs and ELTs only compete in one area...the time they spend in the rack.

A RO qual'd ET had a fat watch rotation, while there were always plenty of ELTs (you only needed one per plant, per watch anyway).

ELTs had their own berthing, ETs didn't.  They had to live with the EMs in the cavernous 150 man berthing on the 2nd deck.  The ELTs have their own division, their own division office, own ELT Chief and DIVO.

ELTs had to qualify SIR on mechanical watchstations, but only stood them for proficiency.ETs qual'ed and stood RO/SRO, IW, RT, and 4th deck watch.

Either way, you really couldn't go wrong on a carrier.  IF you like to play Mr Wizard, try for ELT.  If you like to push buttons and stuff, be an ET.  But remember, you can choose ET(sorta), but you cannot choose ELT.  Before you hang your hopes on being an ELT, you better resign yourself to being a plain old mechanic, just in case you don't get picked up.

I feel so sorry for you sub/former subbers.

mattrev

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #34 on: Dec 11, 2004, 01:34 »

I feel so sorry for you sub/former subbers.

You got it wrong from me. I loved being busy. I'm the sort that lis always trying to learn something new. Tended to annoy the s*** out of people with all the questions I'd ask (still does <g>). I'd be doing forward surveys, stop off at the sonar shack & spend a couple hours learning about sonar. or go into radio & listen to AFRS for a couple hours (instead of watching a movie).

I liked standing MO watches (even the occasional RO/EO UI). Doing just RP/Chem all the time was boring.

I stood a lot of COW/DIVE UI watches just for the heck of it, could operate any of the fire control/section tracking party stations (but only got to do time-freq for real).

Once I  was assigned as the ship's drill coordinator & turned over LELT , things got a lot busier for me but it was great. Coming up with new & better ways to make the guys suck rubber. ;-)
« Last Edit: Dec 11, 2004, 01:41 by Gone Sailin' »

Offline Already Gone

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #35 on: Dec 11, 2004, 01:39 »
Don't pity me.  I had no "workday" hours at sea.  If I stood a midwatch, I could sleep in the daytime.

There were no gangs, drug use, homosexual activity (There were gay men; they just behaved themselves and left that on shore), or any of that surface crap on a sub.

Boot camp ended for us at the gate of boot camp.  We didn't have to relive it for six years like the skimmers.

My Dolphins actually MEANT something.  They were not an imitation of anything that ever went before, and up til now, I've never seen a girl wearing them, and I probably never will.  If that sounds sexist, I'm sorry.  But women were wearing Surface "Warfare" pins long before they were allowed on combatant ships.  Kinda tells you what those things really meant.
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mattrev

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #36 on: Dec 11, 2004, 01:51 »
Boot camp ended for us at the gate of boot camp.  We didn't have to relive it for six years like the skimmers.

You got that right, some of the stuff I hear about from the target guys where I work had to do....

It says something when you really can just walk up to the Captain (full bird) and say hi . Or even better, he'd walk up to you and say hi and knew who you were.
I was informed of the birth of my daughter while performing the primary analysis at about 0200 when I felt a presence behind me in Nucleonics. Turned around, and there was the CO with his secret clipboard in hand. Thank god I decided to wear gloves that day.   ;D
« Last Edit: Dec 11, 2004, 01:55 by Gone Sailin' »

CharlieRock

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #37 on: Dec 11, 2004, 02:43 »
Just thought I'd add my two cents...'

One of the above posts talked about things like berthing on a CVN.  The fact is that if that's your driver - thing again. First, the berthing assignments varies on every CVN.  When I was an RC DivO on CVN-74, the ET berthing was a nice 50 man just forward of the forward mess decks.  The ELT berthing was a nice space also, just aft of the RIM room.  Both were quiet and comfortable.  On the CVN-75, ELTs and ETs were living in huge 150 man berthings. Noisy, bright and busy.  Berthings vary by ship and even change over the ship's life.

Second, I've never seen much difference between ELTs and ETs, in terms of work load or post-military employability.  These two rates seem to be the most employable.  As an ELT, you'll stand a good number of mechanic.  ETs get sucked into other watches as well.  Just ask the ETs standing Fourth Deck Watch on CVNs.

scruffy

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #38 on: Dec 11, 2004, 03:37 »
I don't know if I'd call it lounge-around sluggo lifestyle that I got to slack off ONLY when everybody else was, and had to carry the same M Div. load as all the other MM's before they let me do my primary duty.  I didn't consider it a vacation that I spent most weeks in-port getting no sleep at all every third day and working from 0600 to 1900 the other two.

I wonder who was cleaning the ERLL bilges while scruffy was sitting in the sonar shack.  On my boats that was the prerequisite to doing any RL Div work.  I can't figure out why he had to be ELT and ERS at once when the ERS watch (a total waste of manpower except for startup and shutdown) was secured most of the time.

I didn't choose to be a MM or an ELT.  I was simply told that I would be.  At the time, it didn't really matter.  But, anyone who is given a choice should not be biased by the opinion of this (predominantly HP/RP) forum.  We all went one way, but that doesn't mean that it is the best way.  After all, ET's "stood" most of their watches in a chair.  Their uniforms didn't get too dirty.  None of their equipment was under a half a foot of oily water, and didn't contain any dead marine creatures.  When they get out, they can fix computers instead of surveying reactor cavities.  The only civilian job that ELT "qualifies" you for is a job that any Navy nuke can get because essentially anyone who can operate a Masslinn mop is already on this career track.

Well Beer court I guess I was just too senior to dive the bilge you see I was the only E-5 in my nuke school class and was the senior E-5 on my boat in enginneering had already taken the E-6 exam when their was no one secondary sample qualed then they had to have somebody aft of frame 52 to do them. You guys must of had one boat in bad condition because both of my boats that I was on never had more than 6 to 8 inches of water in the bilge ( except when the Swordfish was sinking then the water was above the ERUL deck) you guys should have taken better care of your boat! Apples and oranges you were in a Navy that was post cold war a different set of rules.

taterhead

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #39 on: Dec 11, 2004, 03:40 »
Boy- that got a rise.

Background:  I am a surface (CVN72,76)  MMC working at a shipyard with 6 submariners (First classes)  working for me.  

I have had to go aboard every sub here for one reason or another (QA).

Just based on their comments and my observations, sub life seems a little tougher.

Don't get me wrong, big props to you sub guys.  I just wouldn't want to do it.  Likewise, there are some aspects of surface life that are hard for subs guys to live with.  Just ask my guys...

Again, I wasn't bagging on subs.  There is a job that has to be done and you guys do it/did it.

Hey beer court...no drug use?  Wow.  That's saying something.  Might be the first command I have ever heard of with *0* drug use.  I never saw any gangs , but I have heard stories.  I guess the differences between sub life and surface life are like the differences between living in a small town and a big city.  With the size and convenience goes the crime and traffic.

To each his own.




mattrev

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #40 on: Dec 11, 2004, 03:58 »

Well Beer court I guess I was just too senior to dive the bilge

Wasn't such a thing on my boat. At one point we had 11 MM1/SS' out of  23 in M-Div (4 of 5 ELT's) . Everybody dove bilges.
« Last Edit: Dec 11, 2004, 04:10 by Gone Sailin' »

Offline Already Gone

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #41 on: Dec 11, 2004, 04:50 »
Well Beer court I guess I was just too senior to dive the bilge you see I was the only E-5 in my nuke school class and was the senior E-5 on my boat in enginneering had already taken the E-6 exam when their was no one secondary sample qualed then they had to have somebody aft of frame 52 to do them. You guys must of had one boat in bad condition because both of my boats that I was on never had more than 6 to 8 inches of water in the bilge ( except when the Swordfish was sinking then the water was above the ERUL deck) you guys should have taken better care of your boat! Apples and oranges you were in a Navy that was post cold war a different set of rules.

There were four E-5's in my NPS class.  I was one of them.  I made E-6 one week after my 22nd birthday.  I dove the damned bilge just like every other guy who pulled his own weight.  If a MMCM or a Lt.Cdr. can be there with me, then you weren't too "senior" as an E-5 who took the E-6 test.  We had a name for guys who didn't get dirty; we called them "riders" whether they were ship's company or not.  Anyone who didn't clean the boat was a passenger. 
If you never had slimy water in your bilge, you must have had the luxury of going up to PD to pump them once in a while.  We didn't stay up that long very often, and wouldn't risk the noise.
I'm sorry you had the impression that I was "post-cold-war" as you put it.  I guess all those soviets we were tracking were just out for a joy ride.

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RCLCPO

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Re: ET vs. ELT
« Reply #42 on: Dec 18, 2004, 03:15 »
Now, now..........y'all be nice.

There's plenty of feather ruffling to be had between sub guys and surface guys, ETs and ELTs, etc.  I've seen more than one alcohol-induced combat scene due to surface and sub sailors being in the same pub, but we don't need that here.

 


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