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Author Topic: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!  (Read 65009 times)

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RAD-GHOST

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Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« on: Nov 29, 2004, 03:04 »
Now that the search for opportunities has narrowed, it sure adds a different perspective on who's doing What in the Outage World and When!  The run down looks something like this:

January - 3 Outages, already staffed

February - 8 Outages

March - 15 Outages

April - 14 Outages

May - 3 Outages

Looks like someone is going to have to pull the reserves out in March & April!  Add the anticipated 100 to 150 DOE positions to the equation and life will be interesting! 

Offline Eric_Bartlett

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #1 on: Nov 29, 2004, 09:35 »
Now that the search for opportunities has narrowed, it sure adds a different perspective on who's doing What in the Outage World and When!  The run down looks something like this:

January - 3 Outages, already staffed

February - 8 Outages

March - 15 Outages

April - 14 Outages

May - 3 Outages

Looks like someone is going to have to pull the reserves out in March & April!  Add the anticipated 100 to 150 DOE positions to the equation and life will be interesting! 

correction

March - 16 outages
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Offline SloGlo

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #2 on: Nov 29, 2004, 06:00 »
yo, eric... my man!  whacha payeen dez daze?
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RAD-GHOST

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #3 on: Nov 29, 2004, 07:32 »
You have to Admit, my Math wasn't bad!

Besides, I believe number 16, in March, is the Other Guy's,( one and only )!

Fitz - 3/05
« Last Edit: Nov 30, 2004, 03:44 by RAD-GHOST »

Surveyors_mato

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #4 on: Nov 30, 2004, 02:03 »
Hey Eric,

  Now would be the time for Bartlett to invest in or buy, A cloaning company. Looking at the schedule, B is going to need it. We can't be in two places at once.


   How cold blooded would it be if every tech in the free world, held out every job for The Money? My guess is B will be importing english speaking  foreigners to staff outages here. But alas, SM no habla :P
« Last Edit: Nov 30, 2004, 05:14 by Surveyors_mato »

RAD-GHOST

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #5 on: Nov 30, 2004, 05:00 »
Insider Information, or just Good Advice?

Quote
Trust me, when Utilities need to compete for contract technicians because they happen to have plants going down at the same time, they will get competitive, rates/diem should go up.  When Utility "A" finds out that  Utilities "B" & "C" are paying 2-3 dollars more per hour and 5-15 dollars more per day, they will raise they're rates or go without those that would normally work there. 
Just my opinion - time will tell.

Eric
 

I'm glad to see your finally comming around to my line of thinking!  I've often felt that you and I, have been on opposite sides of the table on this one, but it appears that I was wrong!  Of course I would expand on the fact, that no matter how many plants were going down, if techs refrained from the early commitments, ( First Offers ), the overall compensation packages would increase!   


Imagine the Scenerio?

Customer call, three weeks before the Outage, " How Many Techs do We have"? 

Answer:  ZERO!

WOW, I can only imagine what would be said next!

( 30/100 would be Nice! )

Bonus...Keep the Stinking Bonus! 
Most of the bonuses today, calculated on a daily bases, equate to lunch at Mc D's and a coke, After Taxes!  Not to mention all the strings attached!

Just my Humble Opinion, RG!     

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #6 on: Nov 30, 2004, 09:32 »
   How cold blooded would it be if every tech in the free world, held out every job for The Money? My guess is B will be importing english speaking  foreigners to staff outages here. But alas, SM no habla :P

I remember a utility advertising for espanol speaking HP's for an outage last year (Grand Gulf, if memory serves correctly). If you are going to get Spanish-speaking workers, the coverage might as well be Spanish-speaking!
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Offline Eric_Bartlett

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #7 on: Nov 30, 2004, 01:42 »
You have to Admit, my Math wasn't bad!

Besides, I believe number 16, in March, is the Other Guy's,( one and only )!

Fitz - 3/05

Then make it 17

Insider Information, or just Good Advice?
I'm glad to see your finally comming around to my line of thinking!  I've often felt that you and I, have been on opposite sides of the table on this one, but it appears that I was wrong!  Of course I would expand on the fact, that no matter how many plants were going down, if techs refrained from the early commitments, ( First Offers ), the overall compensation packages would increase!... Bonus...Keep the Stinking Bonus! 
Most of the bonuses today, calculated on a daily bases, equate to lunch at Mc D's and a coke, After Taxes!  Not to mention all the strings attached!
Just my Humble Opinion, RG!     

This is where we disagree...If a vendor cant staff I dont see the Pay/diem package getting increased, all i see is bonus money getting increased, its allot easier contractually to add a bonus then it is to change rates, just my observations over the past 15+years.  As far as techs refraining from 1st offers, some do, not all but some.  Its been my experience is that most people know where they want to go, and in holding out they may not get there - its a double edged sword, damned if you do, damned if you dont kinda deal - of course from my perspective the earlier the better - but hey thats just me. ;D
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RAD-GHOST

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #8 on: Nov 30, 2004, 06:58 »
Damn it, Eric, I'm just a Tech!  All this contractually stuff confusses me!

I thought I pretty much had that supply and demand thing down to a science!  Let me see if I understand the situation.  If there is a shortage of a commodity, the price Drops?   :-\  Bonuses are easier to deliver CONTRACTUALLY!  Who's Contract?  Bonuses of a buck an hour are Chump Change!  Start the bidding at the DC Cook range of $3000.00 per outage, and I'd even be interested! 

By the way, What's the DC Cook Bonus this year?   :-X 

In your theory, the earlier the Techs commit and the sooner you fill all the positions, the more the industry is willing to offer?  Seems like your contradicting yourself?  ( Those who go without, will pay more )! 

I believe everybody knows where they want to go, getting there is sometimes a problem.  Like you said, it's a double edges sword, jump to early and you miss a bunch of better opportunities, not priorly offered.  Jump to late and you may miss an extra three weeks of work.

In summation, with your company holding the major majority of contracts, you believe that when the utilities can't meet their minimum staffing, via your company, they will once again turn to your company and ask for more Techs, at an increase Wage and Per Diem? :-\

I haven't bought a Bridge in years, which one you Selling?   ;D
« Last Edit: Dec 01, 2004, 06:22 by RAD-GHOST »

Offline Old HP

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #9 on: Nov 30, 2004, 09:58 »
I liked Rad Ghost's last post.  However, in reference to the squeeze is on, it seems more like the experienced techs are being SQUEEZED OUT. 

RAD-GHOST

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #10 on: Dec 01, 2004, 06:01 »
Good Point Old HP. 

Of course they don't want us old independent bastards, who can work for the other companies at the drop of a hat!  Just speculation on my part, but I believe they prefer an entire staff of Newbie, far from us dinosaurs, so they wont become contaminated by the concepts of New and Better Opportunities!  The Mushroom Theory!

Another recent event in the Spring Staffing Game.  I've already gotten calls from two companies, for back up contracts.  I don't know how real they are, but at least someone is fishing!  It all depends on how much CENTS they offer!

Offline Eric_Bartlett

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #11 on: Dec 01, 2004, 10:34 »
Damn it, Eric, I'm just a Tech!  All this contractually stuff confusses me!

I thought I pretty much had that supply and demand thing down to a science!  Let me see if I understand the situation.  If there is a shortage of a commodity, the price Drops?...

OK here ya go putt'n words in my mouth (or on my monitor) - never said the price drops - it only goes up with a shortage

...Bonuses are easier to deliver CONTRACTUALLY!  Who's Contract?  Bonuses of a buck an hour are Chump Change!  Start the bidding at the DC Cook range of $3000.00 per outage, and I'd even be interested!...

Yes bonus's are easier to get signed off by a client than an overall contract change increasing wages and diem, regardless of the amount the utility is willing to sign off on - be it your "chump change" or a $3000 deal and anything inbetween

...By the way, What's the DC Cook Bonus this year?...

dont know yet, still wait'n on all the outage info for the newly aquired contracts

...In your theory, the earlier the Techs commit and the sooner you fill all the positions, the more the industry is willing to offer?  Seems like your contradicting yourself?  ( Those who go without, will pay more )!... 

Once again your putt'n words in my mouth - I don't have a theory, I have my observations from staffing 32+ outages seasons over the years - I never said the sooner the techs commit the more the industy is willing to pay.
 - No contradictions at all - as I stated from MY perspective I would of course prefer people to sign up early, from MY standpoint its a hell of lot easier on what can be a difficult job. "But hey thats just me" (a recruiter)
 - As far wages getting increased - plants that have techs sign up early normally are the ones that have better packages, and/or are better places to work - those that have a hard time staffing are normally those that have moderate to sub-par packages and/or are considered undesirable places to work  - those plants that fall in the second catagory will, in time, have to A. come up with a better package and B. become a desirable place to work in order staff. "Those who go without, will pay more"

...I believe everybody knows where they want to go, getting there is sometimes a problem.  Like you said, it's a double edges sword, jump to early and you miss a bunch of better opportunities, not priorly offered.  Jump to late and you may miss an extra three weeks of work...
 
commit early for what you wanted and not have wages increase, or hold out to try and force wages up and get your spot taken by someone else - double edged sword - each tech will have to make his/her choice and do what they feel the need to do in order to support themselves and thier families - be it confirming in early or holding out for ones ideals - either way is commendable.

...In summation, with your company holding the major majority of contracts, you believe that when the utilities can't meet their minimum staffing, via your company, they will once again turn to your company and ask for more Techs, at an increase Wage and Per Diem?...

In summation I belive that this industry is driven by supply and demand, we've held the majority of contracts(commercial HP/Decon) for several years now and I've seen it happen - when a site can't staff thier packages get increased - over the past several years wages that ranged from $12-$14/hr for an 18.1,  $14-$15/hr for a 3.1, $16/hr if you were >7 years or NRRPT and $1/hr bonuses to rates ranging from $18-$20/hr for 18.1, $19-$25/hr for a 3.1 and higher and bonuses that can reach as high $5-$6/hr st time and 1/2 for OT - I've seen diem go from $35-$50/day to double or more what they used to be to average between $85 to $110/day - all of this under deregulation where the plants have cut back on the money they spend because they arent guarenteed that "golden egg" each year -
In the past I've seen plants give $3000 bonuses because they couldn't staff, because the techs had committed for other jobs - it will happen again - its the nature of the industry

...
I haven't bought a Bridge in years, which one you Selling?   ;D

no bridge - just work, thats all I offer, take it or leave it.

Eric
« Last Edit: Dec 01, 2004, 10:46 by Eric_Bartlett »
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Offline Eric_Bartlett

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #12 on: Dec 01, 2004, 10:51 »
Good Point Old HP. 

Of course they don't want us old independent bastards...but I believe they prefer an entire staff of Newbie...

Whose "they" - come on now, if it wasnt for you, who would I have all these enlightening discussions with?  ;D
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scruffy

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #13 on: Dec 01, 2004, 02:17 »


Whose "they" - come on now, if it wasnt for you, who would I have all these enlightening discussions with?  ;D


Eric Kinda sounds like you are confirming what old hp said in a strange sorta way. LOL

Offline Eric_Bartlett

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #14 on: Dec 02, 2004, 08:23 »
Eric Kinda sounds like you are confirming what old hp said in a strange sorta way. LOL

Not so, my job is to hire any/all able bodied techs available - pending quals & security of course.
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Offline RRhoads

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #15 on: Dec 02, 2004, 10:39 »
-10 pts for spelling.
"when a site can't staff thier packages"
"to support themselves and thier families"
"Thier" is spelled as "their" or "there" depending on proper grammar.
......Massachusetts skooling??
 :P :P

Offline Eric_Bartlett

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #16 on: Dec 02, 2004, 10:58 »
-10 pts for spelling.
"when a site can't staff thier packages"
"to support themselves and thier families"
"Thier" is spelled as "their" or "there" depending on proper grammar.
......Massachusetts skooling??
 :P :P

OK, come on now - just a little mind block when it comes to a few words - thier, their is one of them ;D - you got me :o - this could all be solved if Mr. Mike had spell check ??? - expect to see more "thier"s on my posts just something that happens - I do attribute it to my Masachewsets skool'n - product of public schools push'n me thru - but we can take that up on a political thread about private schools, charter schools and vouchers, etc... ;D
« Last Edit: Dec 02, 2004, 11:03 by Eric_Bartlett »
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halflifer

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #17 on: Dec 02, 2004, 11:16 »
we can take that up on a political thread about private schools, charter schools and vouchers, etc... ;D

sounds like a good one. Start 'er up

Offline RRhoads

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #18 on: Dec 02, 2004, 11:18 »
ok....just a little ribbin!
 :P
i talk "too" u every once in a while!
i agree....a spell check would be nice

Chelios

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #19 on: Dec 02, 2004, 11:28 »
It weren't the skooling, you just didn'twant to learn.

Offline Eric_Bartlett

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #20 on: Dec 02, 2004, 01:32 »
It weren't the skooling, you just didn'twant to learn.

well, that to.  (or is it too)  ;D
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Offline MrHazmat

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #21 on: Dec 02, 2004, 02:08 »
Dat B TOO.  ;)
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Offline Eric_Bartlett

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #22 on: Dec 02, 2004, 04:54 »
tanx!
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Offline MrHazmat

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #23 on: Dec 03, 2004, 10:16 »
uwelcum.
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radman5030

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #24 on: Dec 07, 2004, 05:10 »
what do you consider "able bodied"??

To "some" companies it means breathing, others creative writing, the list can go on I am sure.

Just an observation, don't get mad anyone if it hits a little close to home. :)

Example: Worked with a ANSI 3.1 who had 10 years plus, place working steam generators...with a life time dose of 12mrem.  By the way a Jr. had to explain the difference between loose and fixed contamination to her/him. :D

Now this was a technician that used both of the above skills, breating and writing, I guess you could say he/she was bi-techual  ;D  Not to mention good ALARA practices. ;)
« Last Edit: Dec 07, 2004, 05:24 by radman5030 »

RAD-GHOST

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #25 on: Dec 08, 2004, 05:41 »
Something tells me, " You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet"!  This is going to be one of the larger staffing seasons and Able Bodies, is probably going to convert to, " whoever is able to show up "!  The able body situation is actually generating an unanticipated problem on the side lines.  Many of the old timers, I've been talking to, have conceeded to the fact, that experience seems to be optional today and basicly worthless!  Anybody with the required time, at whatever, and the ability to meet the academic criteria, makes the same pay, for the same stay!  Three years, or thirty years, No Difference!  Besides self pride, there isn't a whole lot of incentive to perform above the environment they've been submerged in.

radman5030

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #26 on: Dec 08, 2004, 07:25 »
Rad Ghost, my hat goes off to ya Brother. 

20+ years ago Jr's were the bottom of the food chain, what the Sr told you went, and if you were hooked up with a good one you LEARNED, and when you weren't working with you Sr. you ran the control points ect. But some of the new bees and I said SOME. either don't have the option or desire to learn. many sit on a control point for the required ammt. of time, and puff...they are a Sr.

The industry over the past years since the great idea of De- Regulation of the industry has shifted from Radiation Protection to Radiation PRODUCTION. Long are the days when HP's have some control, if you out there in nukeworker land don't believe me, use the authority that the plants preach "everyone has job stop authority" and stop a job, and see what happens if you put the outage  behind 1 hour of the 12 day 6hour 35min. goal.

I could go on but what's the use, probably 80% of the nukeworker don't have a clue what I am talking about, even the site censors you if you use the term we were proud to be called..Road W.ore might make it by  We knew where we stood we were the W--res, and they were the Pim-s.  Now Eric you may smite me.   :)  Because I am sure you don't have a clue what I am saying during your quest for "able bodied" techs. I know you have a tough job to do be glad you don't see what we do with some of your finds, I'm sure you would want to update their resume to match their abilities.  That might make a pretty good game at the end of the outage, match the nameless resume with the tech.  You could call it "To tell the Truth".. oh there already was a game show like that..I regress, Sorry.... ;)
« Last Edit: Dec 08, 2004, 07:33 by radman5030 »

Offline Eric_Bartlett

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #27 on: Dec 08, 2004, 08:53 »
...Now Eric you may smite me.   :)  Because I am sure you don't have a clue what I am saying during your quest for "able bodied" techs. I know you have a tough job to do be glad you don't see what we do with some of your finds, I'm sure you would want to update their resume to match their abilities.  That might make a pretty good game at the end of the outage, match the nameless resume with the tech.  You could call it "To tell the Truth".. oh there already was a game show like that..I regress, Sorry.... ;)
 

I am more aware of what your saying than you'll ever know or want to admit to.  All I can do is keep an ear open to what field supervision and other technicians tell me about individuals, whether or not someone is in over thier heads or out of thier enviroment, or physically/mentally unable to do the job,or unable to work in a "team" enviroment, etc... - with that input I can better place an individual in a slot more suited to thier capabilities.  If I'm not made aware of someones shortcomings or strengths in the field then theres not much I can do pro-activley place them in the position most suited to them.  The other side of this is that in all the years of recruiting and placing people I've only had a dozen at most tell me that they weren't capable of doing certain things(not counting physical imediments) - until an individual can own up to his or her shortcommings or weaknesses in the field they will find a way to finagle themselves or be placed into jobs that they can't or will have a hard time handling.  Once again just my observations and opinions, you may feel I'm way off base, or you might agree with me, either way - hope you have a good Holiday Season.

Eric
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radman5030

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #28 on: Dec 08, 2004, 09:18 »
Thank you Eric for the kind words, I am sure that once you hire the techs your job is complete. I am also sure that the plant doesn't ask your opinion on where to place your techs in the field, and what they are able or not able to do.  Because of the shortage out there. unqualified techs are thrown many time way over their head, and if they state they can't handle the job they will be on the first layoff well befoer the outage is completed. So it is kinda a catch 22 situation on both your part and theirs.

As I state I do believe you have a hard job, because you need the numbers, and the numbers just aren't out there with the quality of techs needed to staff outages.  The beef that I have is you take these not so "able bodied" techs. with no or very limited experence, and reward them the same pay as the ones who have been in the game 20+ years, and who have paid their dues.  What would you think if your Uncle Bruce brought in a unqualified recruiter and because he had a pretty resume (maybe false) and paid him the same as you are making after playing the game for 20 years? I bet you wouldn't like it.  Well neither do some of us. :)

My family and I (who I get to see about 2 months per year) Sincerely Wish you and yours a very Merry Christmas, and a Safe and Healthy New Year.

I wish you were going to attend the job fair in Oak Ridge, for I would have liked to meet you and have a chat.  Maybe down the road some day. 

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #29 on: Dec 08, 2004, 10:20 »
This is all too common a complaint among HP/RP techs. Eventually, somebody's going to listen.  Here's where I think the root of the problem is:  The people who have the power to fix things are not willing to pay the price.
In the end, it is the "customer" who suffers when techs are not up to the task.  It's also the customer who pays the bill.  If they would loosen up the purse strings a little, Bartlett could afford to train their workforce.  They can either do that by beefing up the staffing so that juniors have some time away from their work to learn the jobs they are going to inherit, or they could tack on a training surcharge to every contract to pay for offsite training (like HP High School).  The best would be a combination of both.  This would solve BOTH the quality AND the quantity problems.

If money were no object, every new Junior would complete a training course (on the payroll), then serve an apprenticeship until they are ANSI qualified.  Part (less than half) of this time would be spent on independent minor stuff like frisking scaffold parts and routine surveys.

Not only would this result in better trained techs, it would give an incentiive to get into the pipeline for new juniors.  We all know that, with shorter outages and leaner budgets, it takes a Jr. HP almost SIX YEARS to accumulate enough hours to reach ANSI 3.1, and they are barely qualified (if at all) when they do.
In the meantime, they have to live on 20 weeks/year of Junior wages and unemployment.  Better offers come along and take the good workers right out of the business.

Eric, I'd love to come back and work for you, but I can't afford it right now.  Sometimes a better offer comes even to a slug like me.  So, as long as I can keep from getting fired, (which happens to me quite a lot) I'm just another one on the "used to be" list.
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Offline Nuclear NASCAR

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #30 on: Dec 08, 2004, 10:51 »
.....even the site censors you if you use the term we were proud to be called..Road W.ore might make it by  We knew where we stood we were the W--res, and they were the Pim-s.

Just so you know Radman.  The censoring of the Road..... name has nothing to do with political correctness.  It's to avoid threatened litigation from the owner of that other site that used to go by that name.  Stepping back into the shadows now. 
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge."

  -Bertrand Russell

Offline Eric_Bartlett

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #31 on: Dec 08, 2004, 10:56 »
Thank you Eric for the kind words, I am sure that once you hire the techs your job is complete. I am also sure that the plant doesn't ask your opinion on where to place your techs in the field, and what they are able or not able to do....

Kinda, sorta, not really - I sometimes wish my job was over when I've hired the techs, but it doesnt end until the outage is over or until the individual is laid off.   As faras my opinion goes most sites and coordinators will ask me what i know and what I've heard about individuals techs, and normally if the don't I wont hesitate to tell them what I know, have heard or suspect -afterall the individuals I place on a job are ultimatley a direct reflection upon my performance.  If I continuously placed "sub-par" individuals to jobs I would eventually lose all credibility with those clients, and believe you me there is nothing harder to gain in this buisness(from my end) than trust between site supervision and a recruiter.

... The beef that I have is you take these not so "able bodied" techs. with no or very limited experence, and reward them the same pay as the ones who have been in the game 20+ years, and who have paid their dues.  What would you think if your Uncle Bruce brought in a unqualified recruiter and because he had a pretty resume (maybe false) and paid him the same as you are making after playing the game for 20 years? I bet you wouldn't like it.  Well neither do some of us. :)

I firmly agree with you on this matter - for years I have been a strong advocate of a "tiered" payrate situation, a 3yr Sr should make more than an 18.1, a 5yr should make more than a 3 yr, a 7yr should be more than a 5 yr, etc, etc, etc...
and to answer your question, yes it has t'd me off when this company has brought in someone to recruit that is making close or maybe even more than what I make and eventhough they may have experience in other areas they have a fraction of the "staffing" experience.   On this point you'll get no argument from me.  The only exeption is I've also seen "experienced" individuals that aint worth a dam, and "in-experienced" individuals that will work circles around most.  With all that aside I do believe in a tiered pay structure with incentives for performance.

My family and I (who I get to see about 2 months per year) Sincerely Wish you and yours a very Merry Christmas, and a Safe and Healthy New Year.

I wish you were going to attend the job fair in Oak Ridge, for I would have liked to meet you and have a chat.  Maybe down the road some day. 

One of these days if they ever unshakle me from my desk I'd like to make the rounds, untilthen if you ever find yourself in the Northeast feel free to swing by and say hey

Have a safe and happy holiday season

Eric
The opinions & views expressed by me are mine and mine alone and may not reflect those of the company.

radman5030

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #32 on: Dec 08, 2004, 11:05 »
Thanks Nascar, I didn't think of the litigation part, we don't want to get ole Mike in trouble for sure so in the future I will just drop the road part, will that be OK?

As for beer court, hats off to ya.

And by the way Nascar I bet you would make dorsey smith happy if you got a hair cut...LOL :)


Offline Rennhack

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #33 on: Dec 08, 2004, 11:39 »
Beer Court,

I think that is a great idea, lets send that to Jerry Hiatt to push at the Sites.

exocom

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #34 on: Dec 10, 2004, 02:54 »
Excuse my ignorance, I have been out with an injury for the past 2 years. In 2002 some of the utilities I worked at seemed to be waking up to the problem of control point seniors. I was told even the NRC and INPO had expressed concerns over the magically fully time qualified Srs covering jobs. At 1 utility I was encouraged to take Jrs with me on job coverage to give them some OJT.  Jrs being exposed to actual job coverage helps everybody; the Jrs learn, the plants get someone with more than control point experience, the contract company gets a more marketable commodity and we Srs hopefully get a more capable person to work with when the Jrs finally become Srs. I must say I learned the most about HP work being a junior when ALARA was time, shielding and distance for the senior with me doing the work at the senior's instructions. I have a degree in nuclear tech and had some HP experience at a research Rx before this, but nothing beat that hello to the commercial world. From the posts I have read here it seems the utilities and regulators have given up on giving meaningful experience to juniors.

radman5030

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #35 on: Dec 10, 2004, 07:30 »
Sorry about your injury, hope all is well now.

Think about it 12day, 18day ect. outages, shortage of qualified techs...

2 year fuel cycles.. who do they have to sit control point? The poor Jrs. Think about how long it would take a Jr to become a Sr with these short outages??
And the plants use the experenced techs in the high profile jobs.  So after severial years sitting control points you have a "qualified" Sr with no experence.

But inspite of the lack of techs, qualified or not, experenced or not the outages get done when the utilities say, and world records are being broken each outage season.  Rad Protection or is it Rad Production??

For you out there that have their heads in the sand, smite away. :)

Offline nowhereman

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #36 on: Dec 10, 2004, 03:46 »
When will Bartlett start paying  and training HP's more a little more sensibly?.......How about a graduated pay scale for juniors,  say  for every 1000 hrs worked a  work  review and a pay raise. (but why stop at jr's? i've been doing this for 17 years and the pay rate is the same for a Sr. HP straight  off the PCM's as for someone who has 15 years of refuel floor exp. sounds fair?)  How hard is it to implent this? Now that Bartlett has a board of directors you would think they would worry about the liability of self study HP's. A formalized training plan would cost Bartlett, but a lawsuit from a experienced tort lawyer will cost more, and open the door for more to come in. Bartlett has gotten away with letting it ride for so long. Only because once we are laid off we basicly don't exist in their minds(oh, the double secret probation days).
Well Eric if you want jr HP's maybe a formalized traing plan(contracted out to any utilities training dept. after how much work does the training dept have anyway?)

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #37 on: Dec 10, 2004, 06:46 »
That would be a great idea if the review includes progress toward task qualification.  You could assign Jr. techs sets of JPM's which must be completed before they can advance to the next pay grade.

For Seniors, it would be simple.  You graduate the payscale depending on the job and the experience they have at it.  For example; Refuel, S/G, under-vessel work would pay higher than Turbine Floor.  That way, everyone would be trying to get onto those jobs instead of trying to get away with as little as possible.  Techs who have worked those jobs more would get paid more than someone just moving into them.  If you can't hack it there, you will get replaced.  That assures that people are assigned at the level of their ability rather than just putting a bunch of names in a hat.

We all know how it works now.  You worked BOP at Plant Z last year, so you'll work BOP there until you die.  At plant X, they looked at your resume and decided that all those years of covering refuel would make you perfect for radwaste.  etc., etc., etc.........  You just go where you are told as long as it isn't too annoying because it all pays the same.  There is no incentive to get on the leading-edge jobs because they are harder, hotter, and riskier for the same money as you get for working the SAM-9 all day.

Another huge advantage to this would be the ability to staff outages with the right level of ability instead of the right number of air-breathers.  Once an outage has all the heavy hitters it needs, you hold the rest for another plant.  Likewise, you wouldn't overload one plant with slugs because they can't do the jobs adequately.  Instead, you send them to that other plant where you already met the quota of heavy hitters.

It's all about balance and incentive.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

Offline Old HP

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #38 on: Dec 10, 2004, 08:58 »
Beer Court come on do you really believe that the company or the utility is really going to say we have enough (heavy hitters) send us some warm bodies to complete staffing.
Then if you want to open another can of worms, lets throw in a physical ability test for an additional criteria for incentive pay.
I have spent a lot of time training Jr techs over the last 25+ years. But in todays environment of short outages there is seldom time to document all the surveys we are asked to do along with job coverage, yet alone try to provide a real training experience for the next generation of techs.

                                         Just another Old HP

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #39 on: Dec 10, 2004, 10:51 »
Of course not.  What I'm saying is that they should do like all the other contractors on site.  Either:

1. The contractor decides who comes to the job, and the house gets whomever the company sends.  This way the contract house can ensure a mix of experience techs and those who can learn from them.

OR

2. The house gets to specify a percentage (say maybe half) of the techs by name.  The rest are filled by the contractor.

OR

3.  The house has to pay a premium rate for any tech specified by name.  The others are cheaper, but also an unknown quantity.

AND

The pay rate for the same job is the same at every plant.  The employer - not the customer - determines the rate of pay.  This keeps techs from piling into higher paying outages and neglecting the others.

In no case does a tech get to choose what job he works unless the company gives him the choice.  (ex. two or more plants ask for the same tech at the same time)  Refusal of an assignment can lead to disciplinary action just like it does for the rest of the working world.

The "Keyman" concept is fair to everyone.  The best and brightest always get to work, and their pay rate is higher.  The companies get to spread the talent evenly so as to satisfy more customers.  And the utilities retain some control over the people who do the important jobs, as well as getting the assurance that their job will get staffed.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

RAD-GHOST

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #40 on: Dec 11, 2004, 03:13 »
BC, you offer some good points for the future of the business, but the company doesn't exist who will support it!  You mentioned Bartlett in specific.  That company has been around since 1979.  If they ever offered anything besides a few bucks for the NRRPT test, I've never heard, or seen it!  The last time I was employed with them, they refused to pay for my Hazmat Requal, ( $90.00 ), after working for them, 10 out of 12 months, and still employed with them at the time!  In todays world they want fully qualified techs, at the techs expense.  I'm not running of track with your last few posting, I'm simply stating that your idea will not be supported by the major share holder of contracts.

What you propose, is something that should never be supplied by the company who signs your check.  I'll remind you of the days of IRM and the friary.  They brought the techs in, housed then, trained them, then held them at bay with the costs of their contract!  Any classroom training has to be handled by a third party, never a contract company.

Graduated pay scale, based on Experience, Knowledge, Willingness and Ability to perform!  Now there's a Concept!  If the Utilities and Contract company could figure it out, things would be better.  To date, neither wants to spend the time or a dime! 

Many blame the decline in the Industry to De-Regulation, but it started long before that!  It started with the Co-Employment Issue!  The contract companies took the concept to the max level.  During the eighties, I placed my calls to the plants I wanted to work, directly.  They called the contract companies an told them to put me on the list.  Try that today!  All of the contracts have specifiics addressing the practice!  Today the contract companies supply a list of Qualified Techs to the utilities, take them or leave them!  It's part of the game and allows an out for the contract company, for not supplying Techs.  Claims of not meeting contract obligations fall back on the customer!  We sent you 100 resumes of qualified techs, you chose to turn some down....To Bad!  The Utilities just pick what they can, a tech is a tech!  That's the present concept that keeps techs on the bottom of the food chain!  That's also answers the question, why the tech keeps coming back, even after the past bad performance!  If a contract company can keep selling the same old product, no matter how good, or how bad it is, things will never change!

RG!


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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #41 on: Dec 11, 2004, 08:23 »
There are some good ideas in this thread.  I'd like to pick on two of'em for discussion's sake.

1.  Graduated Pay Scales:  In the contract world, this idea has some drawbacks.  If you keep adding pay for time spent on the job (i.e., experience), you will price your most experienced people right out of work.  Or, to keep from doing that, you will have to start the more junior people off at wages they probably wouldn't want to accept.  Or, as an after-thought, the division between the "pay scales" would have to be small enough to not be all that noticeable on pay day (I once had a "pay raise" like that).

2.  "Cutting edge jobs" paying more:  As I look back over the past 30+ years of nculear work, I think I've done enough S/G's, refueling floor, and drywell jobs to have earned a little respite in radwaste or on the turbine floor without being punished on pay day as a slacker.  Some of those non-cutting edge jobs require more head work, by the way.

While I'm all for more pay, we must realize the environment we have chosen to work in - that of the contractor tech.  We hire ourselves out to the lowest bidder (the usual criteria for winning a contract).  We usually know before we accept the job what the payscale is and what benefits may (or may not) be associated with the position we've chosen to accept.  If you don't like the working conditions, the payscale, the hours, or the time away from home, perhaps you start looking for more lucrative employment in another field.  I love traveling from plant to plant listening to the house techs complain about all the things they have to put up with (reminds of the days I was a house tech).  They all think we have it made.  We all think they have it made.  Some in this thread seem to be clamoring for the same conditions that the house techs would love to get out from under.

I like my chosen profession.  I like being assigned to different tasks at different plants.  I like helping Junior Techs and Senior Techs learn their jobs and prepping them for the Fundamentals and/or Core exams.  I like spending a lot of time with my grandchildren.  It don't get no better than this - enough money to live (and retire, someday) comfortably, enough work to keep me busy, enough of a challenge to keep my brain from atrophying (did I spell that right?), and enough time off to stay human. 

Will our jobs improve?  Most assuredly.  It will take time, but it will happen (and has already).  Could it get worse?  I certainly hope not, although that, too, could happen (and has happened in the past).  I applaud all the techs who have contributed to this thread - there are some very good ideas in here.  Just be careful what you wish for (like all those techs years ago who thought unionizing would be such a wonderful idea) because, someday, you may have to live with it.

VooDoo

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #42 on: Dec 11, 2004, 09:33 »
I often read this forum but have never posted, but I just couldn't take it anymore.  I think some of you post just so you can pat yourself on the back.  Most of these ideas are crazy and far-fetched.  Go ahead and ask anyone that is working around you and they will tell you they are the best worker at the outage.  BeerCourt, I suppose when Bartlett finally adopts a system like this and tells you that you have been designated as one of the poor performers that you will accept that?  Measuring performance is too subjective and the way people in this business complain, Eric would need a seperate telephone just too handle the calls! 

Lets face it, Bartlett is a job shop that has done alot of techs good.  Considering most of the people in this business do not have an education, without Bartlett they would be flipping burgers. 

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #43 on: Dec 11, 2004, 10:20 »
Y'know what?  You guys have been isolated from the real world for too long.  All the other jobs are staffed the way I described.  It was not an original idea.  It works, and it has worked for decades.  At least my ideas, premature (or forward-looking if you prefer) that they may be, are addressing the problem instead of bitching about it.  Got a better idea?  Let's hear it.  Just don't make me laugh by saying that things should continue as they are.

Instead of "earning" your way into a soft job by doing a lot of hard ones, you earn your way up the ladder to a position of more responsibility.  Look around, the house does not supply the lead persons for any other craft.  All the trades provide their own leadership from among the most experienced.  That way, the lesser qualified people get to work under their guidance and learn more.  So, Chimera and other techs at his level would supervise, train, and lead the newer techs instead of always getting stuck on the hot jobs in their place.

We talk a lot about giving juniors and new seniors the opportunity to learn jobs by "tagging along".  But nobody ever learned a job that way.  You learn by doing.  When we put a 20 year SR. HP on the refuel floor we take away the opportunity for someone else to learn that job.  So, we are stuck with no choice but to put him in that job.  Then, he covers one area the whole outage and doesn't get to spread his knowledge around.  The more senior people are being wasted by underusing their abilities.

If VooDoo gets his/her way, Bartlett would employ the uneducated when it is more appropriate to educate the unemployed.  The time of the free lunch (i.e. hiring under-qualified people) has to come to an end because there are no longer enough qualified people to cover for them.  If you have a problem with performance evaluation, it isn't because you are afraid that I will get put on the bottom of the pile.  I think maybe you are a little worried about where you will be.

It doesn't mater if Bartlett or any company gives the training or contracts it out.  The point is that they have to start consider adding a training surcharge to their contracts so that the customers can be assured of getting trained people in the future.  There are plenty of people out there who are capable of learning this job.  But someone has to teach them.  It is just plain stupid and dangerously irresponsible to hire a "burger flipper" and just hope that he gains enough ability in the next few years before he starts covering CRD exchanges.  The shortage is not because of a "brain-drain", it's because of the unwillingness of employers to pay for the training that they require.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

VooDoo

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #44 on: Dec 11, 2004, 10:49 »
Hey BeerCourt, I'm with ya, only I think you are dreaming.  Noone said to hire burger flippers, but you have been in this industry long enough to realize that at least half (if not more) of the people in this business are slugs.  Maybe the system created that over the years and maybe it can be fixed, but that costs money.  Who pays for it?  You said the contract companies should pass it along to the customer?  Good luck, that's where you are dreaming.  Do you even understand the industry you work in (beyond RP)?  The energy industry is in turmoil, deregulation is creeping in and power prices are at an all time low. 

In theory, your idea is great.  When you arrive in the real world you will realize it's not going to happen.

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #45 on: Dec 11, 2004, 01:28 »
First, I am in the real world - the one where RP contractors are the cheapest skilled labor in the business.  In fact, unskilled laborers make more in some parts of the US.  So, there is plenty of room for raising the rate.  But there is no justification for it at this time.  I agree that utilities are paying about as much as they ever will for what they are getting.
My radical idea is to offer them something that is worth a lot more - a workforce that is better trained and has a better work ethic.

Why are half of the people in the business  slugs?  I don't think they really intended to be slugs.  I think they are just discouraged.  Some of the laziest techs I know will bust their asses working on their houses or pursuing some hobby.  So, they are not naturally lazy people; they just put their energy into something that gives them something in return.

Do you remember being in school, rushing from one class to another way across the building?  Do you remember how you hauled ass right up until the late bell rang?  Do you also remember how you slowed right down as soon as it rang?  You were already late.  Five minutes late got you the same thing that one minute late got you.  So why bother to hurry when it would do you no good?

I see that same attitude at work among techs.  They know that working hard will not pay them any more.  It will not put them at the top of the hire list.  It just identifies them as hard workers so they will forever be called for the hard work.  No, it's better to be thought of a useless.  It's better that they don't trust you to get it done.  That way they'll leave you alone and go pick on that guy with the sweaty scrubs.  Then you get the same check on Thursday that he gets.

I really think that a graduated pay scale, one that doesn't put you at a dead end after only seven years, will give some people incentive to produce.
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

Offline Old HP

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #46 on: Dec 11, 2004, 09:53 »
Okay, I think we have a good idea of what planet Beer Court is living on, so lets get back on track with the original topic.
Will the next outage season be the one when the utilities.
    (A) notice that ALL the radworkers are getting older
    (B) realize that HPs are real people with families and lives of their own
    (C) figure out that it might not be that important to have an outage
         completed in 12 hours less than the last one
    (D) all of the above
   
   
                                        Old HP
                                     

exocom

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #47 on: Dec 11, 2004, 11:53 »
IRM used to have a payscale supposedly based on performance. Reality was who got the most pay was the biggest butt kissers on site or the biggest whiners to the home office prior to the job. Normally the higher paid people were the biggest slugs. There were exceptions, some of the best techs I ever worked with worked for IRM and were payed well by them. Just an observation that pay for performance does not always work the way it should. As an aside what is the current rate for >7yr 3.1 Sr HPs? Most job postings I see on this site say unspecified with a few stating 20-21/hr and 85/day, is this normal? Seems the same pay and a little higher PD as 2 years ago. Thanks for the thought radman, hoping to be back to work this spring, up to Drs, body, company and utilities.

RAD-GHOST

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #48 on: Dec 12, 2004, 07:50 »
BC,

Like you once said, we've been on opposite sides of the table on some topics, but not this one!  I'd have to say, you are Dead On Balls Accurate! 

Rates:  Of all the Trades in the Nuclear Business, the average journeyman wage is about $7 to $10, per hour higher, than a Senior Health Physics Technician of twenty years, Not Counting Annuities and Insurance!  Their Union, we're not....Another thread in it's own!  I have also been to sites, where the entry level laborer made more then the Senior Techs, with twenty years experience!  Apparently our trade just isn't worthy of being Recognized!  There is a lot of room for wages to grow, but until that venue is pushed, seriously pushed by the Techs, nothing is going to change!

I also see the conflict created by the pecking order associated with a variable pay scale, based on Time, Experience and Performance.  Each Tech needs to make their own decision on where they stand on such an issue.  At the present time an entry level, three year senior makes the same as a twenty year senior!  That's nice bucks for a Newbie!  Five years from now, when that same Senior gains more experience and seasons, he will be making the same money as the entry level Senior!  Now there's an incentive if I ever seen one!  To the Juniors in the equation, you have to figure yourself on a limited run.  After you make it to the big 3.1 Senior, your as high as your ever going to go, under the present standards!

Over the last decade, not much has improved in the overall picture for our trade.  Most benefits are high in cost, low in quality and have strings attached! Wages that grow at a mear percentage of the annual cost of living!  Avenues for education that don't exist.  Techs required to maintain Qualifications, at their Own Expense!  The one thing that nobody can deny, the Utilities and Contract Companies have been voicing their care and concerns for our trade, for well over ten years!  Both sit in the bleachers and offer lots of advice on the declining population of Techs and the quality or our Trade!  Neither has done a damn thing about it!  Any Tech waiting for them to respond, without personally pushing the venue, better be satisfied with what they have today, it isn't going to change much tomorrow!

Education:  VooDoo, the Business is an Education!  I'll probably stand alone on this one, but when I see a past burger flipper, sitting next to me, studying a Tech Manuel, HP Study Guide, or other Trade Related Text Book, that person is Golden!  That's the Tech I want working with me in the field!  Anybody willing to get their hands dirty and expand their knowledge, in the business, has my total respect!   I've seen a lot of four year degreed whiz kids, come and go.  All heading to that upper tier in management.  A small percentage seem to do well, most are confussed with the mechanics of the business.  Yes, they can tell you the dose rate, at one foot, from an X-ray machine, but since there aren't a lot of X-ray machines in Nuke Plants, the knowledge has no value!  In the mid 80's I worked with one meter swinging contractor, who was a Certifed Health Physist, with a PHD!  My first question, " What in the Hell are you doing here "?  His reply, " I don't know a thing about Commercial Power, figured I'd see what it's all about "!  I ran across the same guy three years later and asked him what he thought of the business?  He stated that he actually liked the daily challenges associated with the job, it kept things interesting.  He also stated that there wasn't a book, class, or degree in the world, that could offered the same education!

Incentives:  I guess it's no secret that the healthiest horse, does the most work!  In most plants, do a good job and you get the next job!  Let's check this concept out a little further.  Lets say all techs make the same money, like today world.  One tech keeps a low profile in the breakroom and sits with his home business sale book, open in front of him, looking busy.  Another tech is buzzing around containment, trying to support a dozen jobs.  After a few hours, the containment tech enters the breakroom.  After five minutes, the window opens and the supervisor ask's the containment tech, to do a job normally assigned to the tech reading his sales book.  After the job is completed, the containment tech ask's why he was requested to do the other techs job?  The answer, Every time I ask the guy to do something, it either gets done wrong, or a half hour explanation is required for a five minute job!  He didn't want to bother asking him to do anything, anymore!  The result of the scenerio was an early layoff for the containment tech!  Since the tech wasn't a contract company manager, the brief lecture stating the other techs lazy habits, was considered a personality conflict! 

As with most outages, everybody is a Techs!  In other words, managers are very few and normally invisible!  This leads me to believe that poor performance is actually promoted and obviously condoned, by the Utilities and Contract Companies!  Most sites don't allow for a contract managment team, just a coordinator, one per shift.  Funny thing, the utility usually has a ratio of one supervisor to five, or six techs.  Based on the fact, that very little managemnt is allowed and the co-employment issue is always rolling around, it seems fair to assume my theory is correct.  After all, the problem seem's to be industry wide, constant and accepted as a normal way of doing business!  Even prior postings on this thread offers the same information.  So many heavy hitters to so many slugs!  It's sad when you realize that the sites not only recognize the problem, but they also make concession for it!

Where are the Heavy Hitters?  They're adjusting to the game!  Why do more?  I know quite a few Techs who are 110%!  Give them an assignment, put a meter in their hand and let them run!  These Techs probably know the jobs, better than the workers!  Besides completing the tasks based on self pride, what other incentive do they have?  More Dose, More Running, More Responsibility and the list goes on!  Lets see, if I had my choice of sitting in the breakroom, sipping on coffee, or suited up under vessel, pulling drives, I must admit it would be a tuff choice!  Especially for the same money!  Here's another reason why the heavy hitters list is getting shorter.  Believe it or not, some managers have asked the more experienced Techs, to keep an eye on the Green Seniors!  Lets look at that one!  We both make the same money and you want me to take responsibility for someone else, while trying to do my own job?  Sorry, that's called a manager, ask somebody else!

To all the techs who take assignments based on the buddy system, they really aren't your buddies!  I've heard it a hundred times in the past, I've been there five outages in a row, they treat me good, they give me a special job, it's close to home, their my buddies!  When the outage is over, your buddies ask you to go away and probably have nothing to do with you, until your services are needed next year!  Anybody asking you to show up for the present anti-quated wages, are the ones I would put on the other list!  You are actually doing them a favor, it's not the other way around.  The returnee status is a good thing, but a raise should accompany every assignment, not just the second!

Sorry, I've been a little long winded today, RG! 
« Last Edit: Dec 12, 2004, 07:52 by RAD-GHOST »

VooDoo

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #49 on: Dec 12, 2004, 09:14 »
Fair enough BC.  I don't disagree that doing what you state would be wonderful for the industry, but there are many mountains to climb to get there.  I think the comparison to other trades is interesting and the key question is this.  Why are they paid better?  Truthfully, the reason may be because they are unionized.  I do not support unions but, effectively having a voice is very powerful when doing negotiations.  Like they say, divide and conquer...and the RP's of the world are certainly divided.

I like what your saying but something I strongly disagree with is the belief that Bartlett is the problem.  BC, I'm not saying that you believe that, but many, many people in this business do, and they couldn't be more wrong.  I used to work for Bartlett and they are just a player in the industry.

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #50 on: Dec 12, 2004, 09:18 »
Okay, I think we have a good idea of what planet Beer Court is living on, so lets get back on track with the original topic.
Will the next outage season be the one when the utilities.
    (A) notice that ALL the radworkers are getting older
    (B) realize that HPs are real people with families and lives of their own
    (C) figure out that it might not be that important to have an outage
         completed in 12 hours less than the last one
    (D) all of the above
   
   
                                        Old HP
                                     

That's a trick question!  You left out the correct answer : (E) they're to busy counting their bonus to give a damn.
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Offline UncaBuffalo

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #51 on: Dec 12, 2004, 03:13 »
In no case does a tech get to choose what job he works unless the company gives him the choice.  (ex. two or more plants ask for the same tech at the same time)  Refusal of an assignment can lead to disciplinary action just like it does for the rest of the working world.

Hey Troy...Count me out on THIS idea.  The reason I am a rent-a-tech is so I can go where I want, when I want, if I want.
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner! I can’t think what anybody sees in them.      - B. Baggins

Offline UncaBuffalo

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #52 on: Dec 12, 2004, 03:15 »
Believe it or not, some managers have asked the more experienced Techs, to keep an eye on the Green Seniors!  Lets look at that one!  We both make the same money and you want me to take responsibility for someone else, while trying to do my own job?  Sorry, that's called a manager, ask somebody else!

Yeah, what HE said!
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Offline Already Gone

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #53 on: Dec 12, 2004, 04:48 »


Hey Troy...Count me out on THIS idea.  The reason I am a rent-a-tech is so I can go where I want, when I want, if I want.

You're a good example of what I'm talking about.  In a more professional organization, you would be one of the key persons.  As such, you would have a lot more input on your assignments than the people who would be working for you.  Not only would you get to decide things like where you would work, but you would get a say in picking the rest of the crew.  Wouldn't it be Heaven if you could get the job you want and not have it spoiled by the presence of all those oxygen wasters?
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Offline Old HP

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #54 on: Dec 12, 2004, 08:17 »
Rad Ghost--- You were rather long winded in your last post but you hit on MANY very good points. You deserve a pay raise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But as the saying goes you come first (right after me).
Anyway thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

                                           Old HP

RAD-GHOST

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #55 on: Dec 14, 2004, 06:05 »
Sorry to see this one go the way it did.  Looked like it had some potential!

One-Man-Ship is alive an well and the Contract Companies LOVE IT!

RIP...... RG!    :-[

KARMA to you BC....... ;D
« Last Edit: Dec 14, 2004, 06:05 by RAD-GHOST »

Offline dblaies

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #56 on: Dec 14, 2004, 01:50 »
Hey all,

I've been in the business since '81 and I have seen B go from offering Blue Cross/ Blue Shield over the phone upon acceptance of a job to now not even offering per diem at some of their DOE sites. You bet I declined.

Low ball the contracts if you will, but somehow I have a mortgage to pay 12 months a year. I find that my savings on $21/hr (bare) is not enough to cover between short outages. Are utilities really going to be able to staff outages with only JHPs who live at home with their parents?

The last outage I worked at Kewaunee had contract techs working at $10/hr. LESS than the stable long-term house techs. B--is this really sustainable? Perhaps, now that you are in the driver's seat, you can review the techniques that you use to obtain contracts and get some better terms. I will never travel for you without reasonable per diem--period.

God help me if I fall sick on an outage without insurance...

Dave
Author of Migrant Nuclear Worker's Guide
Inventor of Zn-64 depleted Zinc additions.

Offline Old HP

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #57 on: Dec 14, 2004, 11:13 »
Dave,

You mean you don't have "that insurance"                      (AFLAC)
Where if you get hurt and miss work it doesn't hurt to miss work and they give you money that is as good as cash......................... .......

Anyway you hit on another plight of the HP contractor. That being if you are unable to work due to sickness or injury, you are pretty much hosed.
No work no check..
 
Ah the dilemma, so many outages and so little money with no benefits...

                    Another beaten down Old HP

Chimera

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #58 on: Dec 15, 2004, 09:28 »
RAD-GHOST: I oved your diatribe . . . it was perfect.  I couldn't have said it better myself (I tried, you succeeded).

One other thing to throw into the mix.  The "other" crafts get paid what they do because they are considered to be "production oriented".  We (HP/RP Techs) are considered to be more like Safety.  We are not considered to be production oriented.  We are a highly necessary evil that most plants would like to do without.  That's why there was a movement afoot not too long ago to "cross train" the other crafts to provide their own HP coverage while they were working.  I do believe that INPO like that idea very much for awhile.

When we graduate to the same status as the "other" crafts, we will be able to command similar wages.  Until then, we are just HP Techs.

Will the upcoming outage season (Spring-2005) with its man-power estimates of up to 1,400 techs (at its peak) cause an increase in our wages?  I don't think so.  I have agreed to the jobs I wanted at wages that were acceptable to me.  I will settle for that for now.  I would like the higher wages, but I don't know how to drive that increase in today's market.  Perhaps someone should investigate how Diablo Canyon manages so successfully in this arena.

And, just for the record, I am NOT getting old (I'm not, I'm not [stamping foot on floor]).  That's not gray hair . . . it's platinum highlights (yeah, that's it).  It's too bad I enjoy what I do for a living -  all the traveling, new places, interesting people (okay, som of'em ain't so interesting).  I guess when the day comes that I can no longer make it up the stairs, I'll have to reconsider that position (help, I've fallen down and can't get up).

Merry Christmas to you all.

Offline SloGlo

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #59 on: Dec 15, 2004, 11:55 »
-10 pts for spelling.
"when a site can't staff thier packages"
"to support themselves and thier families"
"Thier" is spelled as "their" or "there" depending on proper grammar.
......Massachusetts skooling??
 :P :P

spill chik?  wotinell iz dat?  'n dawnt yinz fourgit hoew two spill "they're" ;)
quando omni flunkus moritati

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #60 on: Dec 15, 2004, 04:53 »
One other thing to throw into the mix.  The "other" crafts get paid what they do because they are considered to be "production oriented".  We (HP/RP Techs) are considered to be more like Safety.  We are not considered to be production oriented.  We are a highly necessary evil that most plants would like to do without.  That's why there was a movement afoot not too long ago to "cross train" the other crafts to provide their own HP coverage while they were working.  I do believe that INPO like that idea very much for awhile.

Mike, I hate to throw water on that argument, because it makes a lot of sense.  But Canadians train all their craft to do HP work..  They call them Green Men.  A Green Man provides RP to other people, usually of his own trade.  A Green Man is paid Foreman's wages while working as a Green Man.  When working as a regular tradesman they get regular journeyman wages.  It works great, 'cause all the Green Men who are actually doing the RP work tend to act just like a regular RP department.  There is no conflict of interest.

As to the other half... Well, I'll just say that I've worked in HP and Safety.  One of those jobs pays me almost twice as much as the other.  When you figure in double-time sundays, time and a half after eight and all day saturday, as well as higher per-diem.  You can see that they don't treat HP the same as safety.  I'll leave you to guess which one is the better job.  No fair flipping a coin.
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radman5030

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #61 on: Jan 18, 2005, 10:03 »


Not so, my job is to hire any/all able bodied techs available - pending quals & security of course.

Eric, hey there I was just wondering why when you post jobs you don't put what you are paying, this makes shopping a whole lot easier and we don't have to hassel the office gals.

Please in the future post $$$ and perdiem$$$ that way I can make an informed decision to return to the commercial field if I so decide.  I bet I am not the only one who would like to see the $$ posted.

Thanks Eric, and have a good time staffing with able bodied techs, what ever that means.   :)

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #62 on: Jan 18, 2005, 05:01 »
Tater-tot,

Good point. Most laborers laugh at HPs enough without knowing how little we get paid. So maybe by not posting pay rates we can fool a few of them into thinking we are highly trained and highly paid professionals. Especially since we can't get the utilities to believe it.

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beentheredunethat

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #63 on: Feb 03, 2005, 05:12 »
You want to make more money?
                  Why?
You will just spend all the money you make!

If you saved some dough when you worked.
  You would not have to work so much!

I may look like i was born yesterday.
   but i am really an old soul.

I think we all should be payed the same as the traveling House Techs.


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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #64 on: Feb 03, 2005, 06:19 »
I think we all should be payed the same as the traveling House Techs.

dreem on.  their people are working for a change for the money they are paid when they are on the road.  you are an extra expense.  so they go cheep.  betcha don't get the highest grade of fuel at the pump, do ya?
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Doc_REM

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #65 on: Feb 08, 2005, 05:58 »
Ya'll need to think about this...got off the road(working DOE) been here for over 1 1/2 year's(the longest job I've had)...  made over $65k in '04...with deim...didn't sweat...and didn't have to looking for a 4 week job everytime I turned around!

Maybe we should let them staff with newbie, just passed CORE test jr's!  would serve them right! Some of us have given them the BEST year's of our live's (25 of mine)! And what do we get...$22.50/$75 a day and 90 days of work a year! And miss seeing your family!

Thank-You DOE for giving me part of my life back!

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #66 on: Feb 08, 2005, 08:33 »
I am sure that DOE is a great place to work for some, but I can't remember the last time I worked for $22.50 and $75. Most of the time it has been $25 and $100 and the lowest in the last 3 years was $23.00 and $90 and that came with a $3+/ hr bonus (that also paid overtime!) And I work as much as I want and sometimes more. A whole lot more than 90 days/year. If I had to work all year for 64k (even with perdiem) I don't think I would do it unless it was my only choice.

Someone with 25+ years can do very well in the commercial field. I am not trying to talk anyone out of working for the DOE, but you don't have to paint a bleak picture of the other side of the fence. To each his own. I am glad you get to spend time with your family and that you like the steady work. I just took a job that will be long term and I will find it hard to give up my summers off and the occasional week or two between outages. But, I couldn't pass up the money. And southern Florida doesn't seem so bad right now (check with me again in September).

The bottom line is that there is plenty of whatever kind of work you are looking for, if you are willing to work and you do a good job. What works for some doesn't for others and I think that is just right. Everyone has different needs and wants, likes and dislikes. I can't see frisking dirt all day, even if it is easy. (Yes, I know that not all DOE jobs are firsking dirt all day.) That is just me. Doesn't mean it is bad or that I would never do it, just that I like what I am doing now. DOE is not for everyone. Neither is commercial power.
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Melrose

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #67 on: Feb 10, 2005, 06:31 »
Quoted from 'BeerCourt'
"In no case does a tech get to choose what job he works unless the company gives him the choice.  (ex. two or more plants ask for the same tech at the same time)  Refusal of an assignment can lead to disciplinary action just like it does for the rest of the working world."


Man, I gotta difffer with you on that one.  The contractors responsiblilty is to submit my resume where I request to have it submitted.  At no time have I ever gone where I was "told" to go.  Not that I have refused, I have simply never been ordered to go anywhere.  If I ever received a call from anyone telling me that I couldn't go where I wanted, but had to go where someone else wanted, I'd laugh at 'em and tell them to kiss my ass.
If they want to hire me full time, pay my benefits, at least match my 401K and give me holidays - then and only then can they suggest where I need to go.

I offer my services, they don't offer my services.

A couple of times I have "chosen" where I would like to go and because of situations arising have been forced to bail, by my own choice.  No diciplinary actions involved.  In fact, I went right to work... where I wanted to work.  With the same company.

The common denominator here is "choice".  We all have choices, and can choose of our own mind.  None of us are at the mercy of any soul other than our own.  To think otherwise is to surrender your will, your freedom of choice.

Let your contractor know that you'll go anywhere, at any cost, and he'll be bitch-slappin' you on the corner, pimpin' you out to whomever he likes.

Stick to your guns and they'll never be taken from you.

 ;D



« Last Edit: Feb 10, 2005, 06:36 by Melrose »

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #68 on: Feb 10, 2005, 12:38 »
I know how you feel Melrose.  I enjoy a lot of the freedom that comes with the carnie lifestyle.  But, there is a trade-off that comes with that.  The Lone-Wolf mentality of roadies is probably the biggest reason for the low wages, per-diem, and benefit packages.  If you want top dollar, you have to show a little concern for the team. 

At the moment, we have what is just the opposite of collective bargaining.  All the plants have figured out what the lowest common denominator is where money is concerned.  They, working together, have determined the price of our time as well as how much of it they want to buy.  Meanwhile, we individuals, are powerless to oppose them.  They present a unified front; we have nobody on our side.  They can choose the techs they want; we can only choose to work or not work - to get paid or not get paid.  They don't have to "divide and conquer".  We have divided (and therefore conquered) ourselves.  If you can be content with the pyrrhic victory that results from withholding services, I'm happy for you.  But while you're celebrating the fact that you took a stand for individualism, I'll be looking for a job that pays better and more often.  Good luck to both of us!
"To be content with little is hard; to be content with much, impossible." - Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

Melrose

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #69 on: Feb 10, 2005, 12:50 »
I know how you feel Melrose.  I enjoy a lot of the freedom that comes with the carnie lifestyle.  But, there is a trade-off that comes with that.  The Lone-Wolf mentality of roadies is probably the biggest reason for the low wages, per-diem, and benefit packages.  If you want top dollar, you have to show a little concern for the team. 

At the moment, we have what is just the opposite of collective bargaining.  All the plants have figured out what the lowest common denominator is where money is concerned.  They, working together, have determined the price of our time as well as how much of it they want to buy.  Meanwhile, we individuals, are powerless to oppose them.  They present a unified front; we have nobody on our side.  They can choose the techs they want; we can only choose to work or not work - to get paid or not get paid.  They don't have to "divide and conquer".  We have divided (and therefore conquered) ourselves.  If you can be content with the pyrrhic victory that results from withholding services, I'm happy for you.  But while you're celebrating the fact that you took a stand for individualism, I'll be looking for a job that pays better and more often.  Good luck to both of us!

You are absolutely right in what you're saying above.  I can't wait until Mark gets me working with him. 
In reply to your last post.....
My point was and is still, that the contractor's responsibility lies not in telling a worker where they will go, but in submitting that woker's resume to the facility he chooses.  Now it's the faciclitie's choice.

take care, nice talking

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #70 on: Feb 14, 2005, 10:06 »
I can't believe that anyone buys into the idea that the plants all work together to set "the price of our time". The plants can get downright cutthroat with each other to make sure their outages are staffed. Do they want to do it at the lowest cost possible? Of course... that is not only their job, but they have a fiscal responsibility to their shareholders to do exactly that. They even bargain with each other when they are sharing techs between plants, even within the same utility. All they care about is staffing and saving. If they had gotten together, they would all pay about the same... and this is not even close to the case. I choose not to work at the plant where I have the most experience and is 15 minutes from my house because the pay is too low (and of course there is the perdiem thing).

Most plants are turning away from hand picking the people they want... the co-employment issues are forcing them to back away from making specific requests. I am sure some let the staffing company know their desires, but requesting techs is getting rarer these days (Correct me if I am wrong, Eric B.)

I, like Melrose, have had a good track record of working where I want to go. I have had specific requests to go to certain sites, but when I have declined it cost me nothing. And there have been very few cases (can only think of one off the top of my head) where I did not get to go to the plant I wanted. I tend to pick the plants that fit into my schedule and pay the best, and so far it has worked very well. If we al pick the higher paying plants and the lower paying ones get short staffed, maybe things will change a little. Maybe not.

This site is full of threads that talk about the inability of techs to unite to improve their positions. Mostly people talk about how divided we are and how 'the others' are making it impossible to get what we want by selling out. The simple fact of the matter is we can't agree becasue we are all looking for something different. To some it is all about the money, to others it is time at home (i.e. with their families), to still others it is about going to places that are comfortable or familiar to them, some go to plants where they can be a supervisor... there are as many reasons as individuals. This industry has always been the home of the maverick, and it will continue to be. I think that is part of what makes it work. I have met an amazing variety of people in the rent-a-tech field -- some I like and some I don't -- and that is part of the charm. I have never been poor working in nuclear plants, and there have only been rare times where I felt poorly used. I don't go back to those places. It is all a matter of personal choice. and I like that very much.
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Offline Radwraith

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #71 on: Mar 08, 2005, 10:22 »
BC:

You and I both worked at the last Millstone U-2 outage. I remember that dureing the little game of "Survivor" towards the end we were both pleasantly surprised about the fact that the Utility seemed to pick on merit. Since that is a rarity in this day and age I can't say that the Idea of differing pay scales based on performance is a good one. As has been said before, That is often MUCH too subjective! I do believe that the payscale should have higher tiers beyond 3.1 >7yrs (When they have that!). I also agree that we should be paid one uniform paycale from our employer not from site to site. 8) I also believe in the Idea of an offsite training program for both Jr's and Sr's. Most of the big craft shops like Framatome and Westinghouse do it with their people already and I've often wondered why we don't ???. After all.. I'm sure most would agree that this type of continuing training would serve us much better then saying that the NUF "Represents our continueing training". ::)
Remember the seven P's: Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance!

HighRadRanger

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #72 on: Mar 17, 2005, 12:31 »
OK! OK! I think I got it. Listen and listen good maybe this would solve the problem. Why should we work for less then a house tech? Wy not hold out till we make even wages no matter were we are and Gov. allowable diem for the area were in? You know if your in a N.E plant and house tech's make 30.00 why can't we along with Gov MAX diem? The same goes for the South if there making 24.00 why can't we.Oh and while were at it lets throw in 5.00 and hr. for health and welfare.You have Ins. paid for. Thata not asking to much is it?
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2005, 12:35 by HighRadRanger »

Offline volfireman07

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #73 on: Mar 17, 2005, 07:25 »
Is there a union for HP, IH, environmental, safety type people only?  It seems that if everyone working outages and the permanent duty people belonged, the wage and benefit issue would be taken care of.

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #74 on: Mar 17, 2005, 07:45 »
Is there a union for HP, IH, environmental, safety type people only? It seems that if everyone working outages and the permanent duty people belonged, the wage and benefit issue would be taken care of.

No, there is not and it is a subject that has been hashed, rehashed, and flogged ad nauseum in this forum (and I am sure others). The permanent duty ('house') HPs belong to whatever union represents the workforce where they work (if any). The contractors have none... unless you count the plants that insist that the contractors join the local union for the duration of employment there. It has been tried and failed for more reasons than I can list here. Try a site search with the words 'hold out' if you want some insight.
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JnyMac

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #75 on: Mar 17, 2005, 11:17 »
RD,

Remember the Organizational effectiveness we as Techs had about 15 years ago trying to get a union.  I have to agree with you.  Today I think the chances of getting everyone to unite at the same time, for the same thing, and the same union is an impossibilty.

alphadude

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #76 on: Mar 17, 2005, 11:33 »
As usual, these outages will take place, shortage or not. This is not the first time this has happened. When it happened before we just implemented tighter controls, more preplanning and forced longer hours from the contractors and house techs. Besides what is next year? famine?  This is a blue moon year! Now if this continues for a few years... then leverage for the techs will become a reality!!!!  The creation of jrs will only serve to keep the wages low and really only helps the profits of the contractor companys.

JnyMac

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #77 on: Mar 17, 2005, 01:28 »
I agree Alpha.  I remember in 1989 when Palo Verde had over 800 contract RP techs onsite ( 3 different companies).  The fact is today they ask for help from every department that has any spare bodies.  They bring them in as Jrs. and with enough outages they qualify as senoirs.  Now I only need 20 Bartlett Sr. Hps instead of 40.

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #78 on: Mar 17, 2005, 01:43 »
I agree Alpha.  I remember in 1989 when Palo Verde had over 800 contract RP techs onsite ( 3 different companies).

Please tell me that is a misprint and you meant 80... please?
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

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"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
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I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

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JnyMac

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #79 on: Mar 17, 2005, 01:49 »
No

Unit 3 down for outage 250 for 11 months,  Unit one down for 18 months about 450 and unit 2 staffing about 100 until all 3 units down in 1990 due to NRC.  Put it this way.  Pump bays 3 in 3 out.  1st 3 in 16 Srs. and 4 Jrs.  2nd 3 in 16 Srs. 4 Jrs.  Got my 3.1 years in 3.1 years thanks to them.

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #80 on: Mar 17, 2005, 02:02 »
Yikes!

I remember about 120 at peach Bottom in the late 70s... but 800? Sounds like shielding to me.
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

JnyMac

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #81 on: Mar 17, 2005, 02:38 »
Just after the units came online.  Still in construction budget mode.

Offline RRhoads

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #82 on: Mar 17, 2005, 09:55 »
this topic got way off....but yeah....PV in 89'...got there in Feb all units up...<2 months later...all units down.
you coundn't spit w/o hitting a contractor! ;)

OlGraybeard

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #83 on: Mar 22, 2005, 09:20 »
This is a long post, sorry, but do not hpost normally, but felt I needed to weigh in

A lot of discussion here I have heard before.  Seems nothing changes in this industry from that stand point.

I have seen this from many sides of the fence; as a contractor, as a Site Coordinator, as a house HP, as a house supervisor.

RDTroja has it right.

Let me jump in with both feet.

Training of new people:  There have been a number of attempts at this.  The best was actually the IRM School. Hate to say anything good with IRM in it but, well, anyway, moving on. Seems everyone feels the utilities must solve this problem.  They can be part of the solution, but they are not the solution. Company’s that provide training to personnel for job skills provide it for their permanent employee, not for temporary help that will work elsewhere. The utilities are in business to make money, not paying you.  You need to remember that.

Can they have people working as juniors?  You bet.  And they do.  Just what they are allowed to do depends on the history of the plant.  If they have been burned in the past due to action of a junior, I bet the scope of allowed activities is strictly limited. This goes in cycles.  Time heals all till next time.

Can technicians get training themselves?  You bet. I have seen many people complain about the quality of the field tech.  This has always been the situation.  There are technicians and than there are Technicians. The individuals that have coasted along and learned what they need to do to be HP’s are exactly that. They learned what they have seen, right or wrong and believe it is the gospel. I am sure you have seen the ones I mean and they can not be made to realize they do not know anything.

Than, there are Technicians that have taken online courses, college classes, studied various training material and sought to improve their knowledge and understanding of the field or have been in a training program from somewhere that provided the technical background. They work to apply this in the job they do.

People who are sometime not much more than trained monkeys (monkey see monkey do) believe they are under paid.  Some people in the field are definitely underpaid. How do you fix the disparity?  I have no idea.  It has been debated for as long as I have been involved with nuclear power. No one answer works for everyone.

If you want to be paid for being technicians, than be technicians (and there are a lot of theses out there). The road warrior has always been paid an hourly rate lower than house rate. House tech base pay here is about 59K, (we are in the south).  Contractors get about 20 to 23 an hour here, per-diem of about 100 or more. Do the math; seniors are not paid much less than the house personnel.

Eric is right, utilities do not work together to set rates.  We look at the industry market and seek to get as low as we can for our contracts, period! We are a business. If we can not get fully staffed for the outage, than we operate with what we get.  Then management looks at last outage and says, well, you got by with this many people last outage, so that is all you can hire this outage.

I for one would like to see more training for juniors and continuing training for seniors. At the site I am currently at, senior contract personnel do attend the same training plant personnel attend if they are long term contractors (> 6 months at site). This has not happened since I started working her till now.

If you do not know this yet, let me be the first, the utilities will not be the source of this training of new technicians.  You can keep pushing, but it won’t happen that way. Sorry, just a reality. Maybe an industry supported school tied to INPO.  I think you would have better luck with that idea.

A little long and hopefully, I have not offended anyone but this is the facts as I have observed them with 30 plus years in the industry. Have a nice day

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #84 on: Mar 22, 2005, 09:30 »
OK! OK! I think I got it. Listen and listen good maybe this would solve the problem. Why should we work for less then a house tech? Wy not hold out till we make even wages no matter were we are and Gov. allowable diem for the area were in?

I am not willing to take that pay cut! I do not meet IRS criteria for per diem, and I make more per hour than the house techs hired in the last 3 years. No thanks.
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Offline RRhoads

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #85 on: Mar 22, 2005, 02:26 »
OlGraybeard ...
You do have some valid points.
Not much training for JR Techs if at all & they really aren't allowed to do much if anything.
But....
I may fit into the category of "just" a technician w/ no "formal" training...ya know the "monkey" kind...although i do not really bitch about the wage i make....i have a trade & make pretty descent money doing it & have been for 13 years now..


Which category do you fit in???

(Personal attacks deleted - RT)
« Last Edit: Mar 22, 2005, 03:24 by Roll Tide »

Offline SloGlo

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #86 on: Mar 22, 2005, 06:14 »
when the squeeze is on the tight get tighter..... when everybuddy is calling, then the contractor kin pick the plant, the wage, the diem, even the recruiter he wants to talk turkey with.  it's the mostest beautiful season of them all.
quando omni flunkus moritati

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dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

OlGraybeard

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #87 on: Mar 22, 2005, 09:25 »
RRhoads, I am a combination of the two.  I have had some formal training I pursued and have done alot of self study.

I have nothing against the folks that do not pursue a better knowledge and become a true technician.  Even many of those gather a good backgorund just by working and questioning in the work process. Most plants I have been at, the utility and the Contract Supervisors work out where people work best.  Some are better in some areas and not others.  Just a fact of life no mater what job you work and the trade you work at.


Have a fine day all

« Last Edit: Mar 22, 2005, 09:27 by OlGraybeard »

Offline RRhoads

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #88 on: Mar 23, 2005, 06:08 »
a "true technician"?????
give me break!
I am all for the pursuit of more knowledge in the trade, but that statement comes off as Elitist.
I've seen quite a few "True Technicians" according to your definition who are not trusted for job coverage.
I think you might be wise to look around this web site & get a little knowledge of your own before you make that kind of statement.There are many here who got their start as deconners. Myself being one.
I think we're pretty off topic.

Offline Nuclear NASCAR

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #89 on: Mar 23, 2005, 07:03 »

I think we're pretty off topic.

I agree.  Please take note of the forum rules which can be found here:

http://www.nukeworker.com/policy/forum_rules.shtml   

#4 in particular. 

4. Please learn to be respectful, tolerate and support each other. NukeWorker.com’s goal is to help others, not see how many people we can annoy. Do not initiate arguments or tension. This will only cause the triggering of other members and make this site less professional.
« Last Edit: Mar 23, 2005, 07:14 by Rennhack »
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OlGraybeard

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #90 on: Mar 23, 2005, 03:53 »
RRhoads,

I have known some excellent HP Tech's that started out as Decon techs. I have helped a number of Decon techs that wanted to move on to becoming HP's.

Please do not miss understand me.  When I refer to the people that do not have adequate skills, I refer to the people that are not willing to learn.  They do not have to.  They know it all.  They just do not have a clue. And I can tell you that about 10 to 15 percent of the techs fit this profile. There are techs that can never be much more than glorified Control Point Techs. This is not a slam against them. This is all they want.  Good for them.  I for one feel technicians should have pay that rewards the people that do all of the work. Not the people that coast.

Quote
RRhoads said:
I am all for the pursuit of more knowledge in the trade, but that statement comes off as Elitist
Quote

As for an elitist, no I am not, (at least I do not think of myself as one, could be wrong, have been before).  Professional and proud of what I do, yes.

I am also glad you seek knowledge.  There are a number of people in this field that do not. However, they expect the same courtesy as the people that do go out and learn, (not just book knowledge by the way, there is a lot of knowledge that is field knowledge).



Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #91 on: Mar 23, 2005, 04:04 »
It would be nice if there were standards for continuing education for contract techs. It would be GREAT if NRRPT would substitute for more mundane training for a year, then CHP Part A in lieu of another year........

Yeah, I know I am dreaming. But it would be nice if you could do something more worthwhile INSTEAD of something they are going to stick you in for bean-counting requirements.

Perhaps when the supply of Techs dwindles just a little more, the utilities will try to get creative in a positive manner!
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
.....
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Offline SloGlo

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #92 on: Mar 23, 2005, 05:26 »
Perhaps when the supply of Techs dwindles just a little more, the utilities will try to get creative in a positive manner!

not as long as engineering and instrumentation advances are a.m.am.a.  as mundane as management allows.
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

Offline 870xprs

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #93 on: Mar 23, 2005, 09:15 »
Here's my personal distortion of reality.  My friends, as far as hiring contractors at nuclear power plants, plant management holds all the cards.  And these days contractors are at the very bottom of the food chain.  We are the absolute lowest priority in the overall scheme of things.  Contractors will never have a ghost of a chance at getting significantly increased wages, even by threatening to go union.  For the time being, all we as HPs can hope for is to keep plugging along and take the jobs as they come up.  Power companies sponsor training for contractors? . . . it ain't gonna happen.  Why?  Because as someone else pointed out above, the outage work somehow keeps getting done and those output breakers get closed.  That’s all the executives and managers care about.  Outages don't have to get a 4.0 score or even a 3.0 to be called a success as long as executives and managers get to put the final spin on the outcome.  You and I get to deal with all the crap that goes on, and we get the blame if something doesn’t go according to plan even if we did our best.  Your outage didn’t go according to plan? . . . who cares?  Procedures get revised and condition reports get written, and eventually forgotten.  People make mistakes.  Lessons get relearned over and over again.  But that’s beside the point, which is that managers and VPs keep getting their bonuses no matter what happens.  If something big enough goes wrong, they just get moved to another location.  When was the last time you heard of a manager or VP getting FIRED for screwing something up?  No, it ain’t fair, but that’s the way it is.  I guess it’s because there still isn’t enough competition among nuclear power companies.  Managers and executives aren’t held accountable, and that’s a fact.  They get to pass the crap on to someone else.  Somehow the work keeps getting done, and you and I keep coming back for more because this is the work we know.  THis is what we do.

It’s the VP’s job to squeeze every last dime of profit out of a nuclear power plant.  But they really have the easy job.  All they really have to do is tell each department manager that their budget is x-amount less than last year’s.  Oh yeah, and sit in endless meetings pretending to offer sage advice on a multitude of complex issues that us poor HPs will never understand.  Sir, can we please buy some more HP instruments because our current ones are 20 years old?  Oh, yes sir, I forgot this is the year that Operations gets the control room make-over.  You’re very proud of that, aren’t you sir?  But sir the new instruments were included in this year’s budget, remember?  Oh, I see . . . our budget just got cut.  Maybe next year.  Sigh . . . . thank you, sir. 

As a reward for not letting things go to hell in a handbasket, we HPs get to figure out how to jump through even more hoops next outage, with fewer resources, and pray that nothing goes wrong and no one does anything stupid.  Hey, let's try using admin and clerical personnel as control point monitors.  It's worth a shot, we got no one else left to staff those jobs.  Maybe we could eventually train them to release stuff from the RCA!  They already told us we aint' getting any more contract HPs, and we can't even get the few we requested.

Do you suppose that when the VPs, directors and managers go home at night they offer up a few prayers that somehow the plants keep running?  Or that they can come up with a few creative answers to problems?  Or that maybe they could learn to cut someone some slack every now and then?  Nah, probably not.  Gotta plan that trip to the Bahamas.  And where to invest that bonus check.

OK.  I’m done now.  Time to take my meds.

Atomic_Punk

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Re: Spring Season, The Squeeze is on!
« Reply #94 on: Mar 24, 2005, 01:55 »
870xprs, you very wise person.

 


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