Need help with new per diem rules

[mvtiller]

Hi everyone!  I recently received news that the company I work for is going to only pay me per diem for the days worked. I, along with a group of others, stay working almost year round for innage and outage between 2 or 3 plants. They are telling us for the weeks we only work 4 10's we will not receive per diem for fri-sun and they are also not going to pay us travel to and from home each week. This will go on until a month before an outage begins. Then they will resume paying us a full week of per diem (even if we are only working 40's for that month). I'm asking if anyone out there knows if this is legal or if anyone else has had this happen to them. Thanks!

[retired nuke]

It is legal. They decide what you get paid, you decide if you work for them. They don't have to reimburse you for a damm thing. They (the employer) are likely only paid for your expenses the way they are paying it to you - sounds like they got a new contract - in most contracts, perdiem is a "pass thru".
You can still deduct your living expenses for the entire period that you are there, as long as you claim the perdiem you are paid.
Welcome to the new nuclear world in the age of "Natural Gas is kickin our A$$"

[Old HP]

It sounds like you have to make a choice. Just like in the past (when a utility would not increase their pay or offer returnee pay) you had to either accept what was offered or go someplace where the pay or at least respect level was better. With the "new per diem rates" the utility is essentially saying take it or leave it.
Yet another dilemma in the wonder world of nuke.

[Apollo]

Really ? I would quit and go home and spend time with my family, there are a lot of better companies out there. Any how that's what I would do and have done. If I am told the rate of pay, per diem, hours etc. etc.
etc. and that changes at any time I am there or over my course of employment I leave.
This seems to be happening a lot. Anyhow that's what I would do.

[hoghunter]

OLD HP hit it!! We have to make choices in everyday life not to say we must like them but we have to weigh our options and decide.The loss of diem is mainly a innage issue not outage  Hell I just lost my diem due to not being gone for 8 weeks 4 days short but with unemployment like it is and the fact I gave my word here I am. The days of the Nukes as we knew are slowly coming to a end. hang in there and keep your options open

[61nomad]

Innage?  I learn something every day!

[surf50]

I, along with a group of others, stay working almost year round for innage and outage between 2 or 3 plants.

I wouldn't complain too much. It's unfortunate they've cut the per diem, but you're in a pretty good situation as is.

[61nomad]

Keep a log book and receipts. Your mileage home and back each week is deductible as is your lodging and food on weekends you don't go home.

Maybe you could just live out of your car in the parking lot at work on the weekends. Do they have hot showers there?  You can hold up a sign that says "part-time homeless". The house people doing your job that get paid a lot more than you do might give you some goodies out of their lunch box.

[Ksheed]

Hi everyone!  I recently received news that the company I work for is going to only pay me per diem for the days worked. I, along with a group of others, stay working almost year round for innage and outage between 2 or 3 plants. They are telling us for the weeks we only work 4 10's we will not receive per diem for fri-sun and they are also not going to pay us travel to and from home each week. This will go on until a month before an outage begins. Then they will resume paying us a full week of per diem (even if we are only working 40's for that month). I'm asking if anyone out there knows if this is legal or if anyone else has had this happen to them. Thanks!

There are no laws requiring per diem to be paid, and I have yet to see a bargaining agreement that requires it. In fact the NMA specifically states it is not required. The utility usually dictates what is paid and the eligibility requirements. It is a pass through cost for the employer, but it still shows as revenue. So, it is in their best interest for it to be as high as possible. Your employer is not trying to screw you over, they are just following their contract with the utility. There is talk in the industry that per diem will completely go away in the near future. Every one will have to maintain their expense records and get it back during tax season. It is my understanding that this is already the case at some plants.  In your case, some money is better than no money. If your expense records exceed your per diem received you should be able to deduct it come tax time.

[pjtesqpe]

Hello,

Per diem is a contractual issue between you and your employer. There is no statutory requirement that you be paid per diem. It assumes that you have a permanent residence at least in most cases at least 50 miles from the job site. This can very by client and site.

[joejack45]

Out of curiosity....if per diem is cut can you quit and file unemployment? 

[Apollo]

Just don't do this !
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=14643.0

[Rennhack]

Out of curiosity....if per diem is cut can you quit and file unemployment? 

You can always quit.  You can always file.  However, you will be treated like anyone else that quit a job.  Ineligible.

[hamsamich]

What i do and most of my friends do is calculate the amount of money after taxes in the job u have now and other jobs available to you.  Per diem isn't required, it is just another legal vehicle  for employers to reimburse employees.  Basically you got a pay cut, just decide if u want to work for that amount taking into account what is available and how much you like what u are doing right now.

[Apollo]

There are plenty of companies that pay well. Don't settle for less, contracts change, people move around, if you are a good tech, you will get calls. If settle for less its not worth it.

[SCMasterchef]

Per diem is becoming or should I say is a huge deal with many jobs.  As has been said, you can claim your perdiem as unearned income and deduct some of your incurred costs of living but remember you would normally eat at home, you would normally drive to work, and many of these expenses are only partially accepted by the IRS.  You will need to keep very good spreadsheet records of all of your expenses and it is advised that a good accountant who knows the in and outs of the contractor world and understands what per diem means in our business.  The IRS has started looking closely at individuals who receive per diem and still write off expenses incurred.  They look even more closely for those receiving perdiem, claiming perdiem, and writing off the expenses.  So as a veteran of the nearly 30 years of contracting experience choose wisely on the choices you make and tread a slow treadmill if you are trying to skim the tax man.  He bites, even today.

[MercTech]

The 2106 form is your friend...

That is the form you file with your tax return showing expenses, per diem paid, etc.

Now, don't forget other "employee business expenses".  If you buy an outage bag, it goes on the form.  If you buy a lanyard pen for work, it goes on the form.
Clothing can be questioned if it can be worn for casual wear.  But, scrubs for beneath the PCs, safety shoes, prescription safety glasses, etc. are certainly fair game.

The little stuff adds up.

It gets a bit confusing as you have to line out "lodging", "meals" and "other expenses" separately and most people are paid a daily "per diem" for expenses.  The IRS won't give guidance really.  So, I picked a method and stuck with it.  I went to the GSA per diem tables and looked at the percentage break out used by the government for the meals and lodging for the area and split my per diem by the same proportion and call it "meals" and "lodging".  It hasn't been questioned yet.

[Fermi2]

There are plenty of companies that pay well. Don't settle for less, contracts change, people move around, if you are a good tech, you will get calls. If settle for less its not worth it.

The point being eventually all nukes will head this direction. Less Plants. Same work force...

[BetaAnt]

@Rennhack, If a company is reorganized and lowers the RCT compensation, do you quit or suck it up? 
PD is taxable after a year but living expenses are still deductible provided you maintain a primary residence elsewhere (i.e. pay property taxes and utilities). Some places will give an increase in wages in lieu of paying PD. Others want only locals or dragging people in to become locals. 

Or a company pays an RCT $A/hr and a laborer $A+$2/hr (union scale). Do you quit or suck it up? 

Companies and utilities will continue to step on staff augment radcon and HPTs since we have no where else to work. 

Until an incident or accident occurs (like Fukushima) and a shortage of 'qualified' HPTs occurs, we will be stuck with lower wages. 

We have degenerated to the 1940's when companies flouted radiation safety for a few extra bucks (corporate-speak for cost savings bonus). The DOE is finding out the hard way with thousands of workers diagnosed with radiation induced cancers and other ailments (asbestos and silicosis). But, that is far down the road as some DOE sites settle with surviving family rather than provide treatment and comfort to older weapons complex workers. 

I have worked with Ra, Pu, HEU, Np, Am, Be, asbestos, silica dust, HF, and classified chemical processes (MSDS was classified, so much for right-to-know) in the DOE. I have had FP uptakes at commercial plants due to control room and WCC screw-ups (innocent bystander as containment rover). My last chest x-ray showed a spot and I am afraid.   

I have warned all the younger techs to get out of the business and do something else. RCT and HPTs are viewed by management to be a nuisance, counter productive, and work hindering. I have stopped numerous jobs due to safety and radiological issues. RPMs are powerless in the operations group (most entities have taken RP out of the QA/QC group and place them into operations). Many operators will over-ride an RP decision due to operational concerns. I was informed by an RP supervisor that industrial safety was not my concern. Now I let the accidents and violations occur at a natural rate (Darwin Law of work place attrition - the stupid will be hurt or fired, I don't see a thing anymore). 

I am getting out of this field. After 27 years with DOD, DOE, NRC, USACE, and EPA experience, I am tired of being told, "safety is not your job". It was documented in Fukushima that the workers were pressured into shielding dosimetry to extend their TEDE. It has happened here in the past but, it will occur again in the future. Corporate utilities like to brag about dose goals and THEY DON'T CARE HOW THEY GET THERE. Cut work, cut corners, or dose reconstruction. 

To the remaining techs that are trapped, GOOD LUCK. 
To the remaining techs that are still mobile, save your soul and escape, now. 
To the young techs out there, change your job. Pipefitters get paid a lot more than an HP, with less grief. And, you can be a plumber in the off season. 

Welcome to AllMart, 

BA 

[Ksheed]

@Rennhack, If a company is reorganized and lowers the RCT compensation, do you quit or suck it up? 
PD is taxable after a year but living expenses are still deductible provided you maintain a primary residence elsewhere (i.e. pay property taxes and utilities). Some places will give an increase in wages in lieu of paying PD. Others want only locals or dragging people in to become locals. 

Or a company pays an RCT $A/hr and a laborer $A+$2/hr (union scale). Do you quit or suck it up? 

Companies and utilities will continue to step on staff augment radcon and HPTs since we have no where else to work. 

Until an incident or accident occurs (like Fukushima) and a shortage of 'qualified' HPTs occurs, we will be stuck with lower wages. 

Wow, it only took you ~120 words and 5 emoticons to segue into the poor state of the RP/HP lifestyle. It may not be a new record, but it is impressive just the same.

To the young techs out there, change your job. Pipefitters get paid a lot more than an HP, with less grief. And, you can be a plumber in the off season. 

This is a true statement and a good pipefitter/welder can find good work outside the Nuclear Industry as well. If the want to they can pretty well work year round. However, I would never seriously refer to an Industrial Pipefitter as a Plumber. Maybe as a joke, but only if I knew them well enough to speak to them in such a derogatory manner. 

[retired nuke]

This is a true statement and a good pipefitter/welder can find good work outside the Nuclear Industry as well. If the want to they can pretty well work year round. However, I would never seriously refer to an Industrial Pipefitter as a Plumber. Maybe as a joke, but only if I knew them well enough to speak to them in such a derogatory manner. 

Most licensed plumbers make more than RP techs, work indoors, OT when they want it, and have retirement through union (at least up here in MA). They don't travel, stay fully employed. Friend up the street just went back to plumbing after a couple years with Home Depot while he got his back fixed. Even HD paid him more than most RP techs...

[hamsamich]

Derogatory?  I wish I made as much money and was as important to a community as some of the top plumbers out there.

[61nomad]

 Even HD paid him more than most RP techs...

OK HouseDad, I call your bluff on that one!

(Sorry to hijack the thread but it was falling apart anyway)

[Rennhack]

PD is taxable after a year but living expenses are still deductible provided you maintain a primary residence elsewhere (i.e. pay property taxes and utilities).

The IRS would not agree with that statement.

[Ksheed]

Most licensed plumbers make more than RP techs, work indoors, OT when they want it, and have retirement through union (at least up here in MA). They don't travel, stay fully employed. Friend up the street just went back to plumbing after a couple years with Home Depot while he got his back fixed. Even HD paid him more than most RP techs...

Derogatory?  I wish I made as much money and was as important to a community as some of the top plumbers out there.

It was mostly tongue in cheek. However, every card carrying industrial pipefitter I know would be offended to be called a plumber. It is a running joke in a split local (plumber/pipefitter). I do not dispute the fact that a plumber makes good money or has steady/important work, because they certainly do. In a split local they make the same money as the pipefitter. The point is, there is a difference between the two and any proud pipefitter would not hesitate to point it out to you if you got the two confused. It also makes a big difference when filling a call for a power plant that is specifically asking for pipefitters.

[BetaAnt]

@Rennhack An apartment will not count as a tax residence provided that you maintain a primary residence. 

Case in point Engineer A is working on a l-o-n-g term project in Oak Ridge, TN, but maintains a permanent residence in Orlando, FL. Once a quarter he will commute to his  FL house for upkeep and clothing change out (summer to winter cloths). His Oak Ridge expenses are tax deductible and have withstood an audit (keeping copious receipts). 

BA 

[Already Gone]

You are absolutely WRONG about that.

The term "tax residence" does not appear in the hundreds of thousands of pages of tax code.

You TAX HOME is the place where you make your money -regardless of where you live, whether it is a house, and apartment or a trailer.  It does not matter how many residences or "domiciles" you have.

Your living expenses at your tax home are never deductible. 

If your friend passed an audit, he probably used the "bigger shoebox" method, whereby the taxpayer simply wears down the auditor with so many receipts that the auditor just gives up.  It happens, but not always.  Many people have survived audits even when they violated the tax code.  Auditors are mostly temporary, low-level employees who make about $18,000  a year.
However, and audit of last year's return only buys him temporary relief.  The statutory period for collection is 10 years.  That means that they can audit that year over and over again, as well as this year, next year ... etc.  If he gets audited again within 10 years, and the next auditor actually knows the tax code, and isn't lazy, your friend will most likely be re-audited for the whole ten years.

What I'm saying is that your pal broke the rules and got lucky.
OR
He didn't tell you the whole story
OR
He lied

Still, the IRS regulations do not agree with what you have posted.  You can gamble that your friend was right or that the IRS was right.  Since the IRS is the ultimate judge of that particular contest, you should bet with the house on that one.

In almost 30 years in this industry, I have heard so much tax lore from the techs I could write a Sci-Fi novel about it.  The bottom line is that the regulations are printed, published, and have the force of law.  On the other hand, there's this guy who knows this guy who passed an audit by doing it this way or that way.  Naturally, everybody takes the shaggy dog story over the actual law.
You're wrong.

[GLW]

You are absolutely WRONG about that.

The term "tax residence" does not appear in the hundreds of thousands of pages of tax code.

You TAX HOME is the place where you make your money -regardless of where you live, whether it is a house, and apartment or a trailer.  It does not matter how many residences or "domiciles" you have...........

You know you've been illuminating the facts on these related topics for twelve years and they just keep being smarter than the law,...

They rarely search the forums before starting a new thread of meandering tax lore, nor does anyone else simply refer them to Thread A in Forum B, msg000001.html#msg0000001,....

me?!?!?!?!?!

I just like to read 'em, imagine the financial train wreck in my "thinking in pictures" braincase,....and smile to myself,....

Somethings, somefolks, jus' gotta learn the hard way,...

[Rennhack]

You know you've been illuminating the facts on these related topics for twelve years and they just keep being smarter than the law,...

And that's why I didn't even bother responding to Beta Ant.  I mention the facts once.  They can take it or leave it.

[BetaAnt]

@already gone,

If you are on a non-per diem project away from your primary residence, none of your expenses are deductible???
Either away from your tax "home" or "residence", away expenses are always deductible if you are not not receiving PD.

Quote from: djdroc on Sep 13, 2010, 09:31
I'm a nukeworker who regularly travels away from home on temp assignments running anywhere from 2 wks to 3 mos and often a min of 75 miles away. I drive to each location, paying out of pocket for meals/lodging and receiving no per diem for either. I haven't been the best with keeping up with all my receipts.  For simplicity, can I take a tax deduction for lodging and meals using the fed per diem rates?  If not both, is it true that I can deduct actual lodging exps and take a standard meal deduction using the fed per diem meal rates instead? 

Actual lodging expenses and the Federal per diem for meals.
This assumes that you have a tax home vs a permanent residence as those two things are different

Joseph Smith EA/MS Tax
Enrolled Agent, Admitted to Practice Before the IRS
TravelTax LLC
The Mobile Professional Tax Specialists
www.traveltax.com
jsmith@traveltax.com
866.272.7871

Joe Smith should add clarification.

Permanent Tax Residence Declaration
The IRS requires that you pay taxes on housing benefits and travel expense reimbursements, unless you maintain a permanent residence while on a temporary assignment. If you qualify for permanent tax home exemption, we are required to keep your Permanent Tax Home Address on file.
 
Consult your tax advisor regarding tax liability of housing and travel benefits and permanent tax residence.
IRS criteria used to determine your tax home residence is as follows:

• You must meet at least one of the following criteria:
a) You lived at your permanent tax residence immediately prior to your current assignment, or
b) You have a family member utilizing the residence, or you utilized this residence frequently for purpose of your own lodging.
• There must be a realistic expectation that you will return to & live at your home; and
a) Your tax home must be separate and distinct from your temporary address; and
b) You pay to maintain your permanent tax residence while you are on assignment (i.e. mortgage, rent, room and board).
• The Permanent Tax Residence must be:
a) Habitable living quarters at least 50 miles away from your temporary residence; and
b) Payments to maintain your permanent tax residence must be real and substantial.

Please be advised, the IRS considers employment away from your home in a single location that exceeds or may exceed one year, to be indefinite, not temporary and
therefore housing and travel benefits would be subject to withholding.

Aren't TN and FL state income tax exempt?

BA 

[GLW]

Aren't TN and FL state income tax exempt?

Only for certain income streams,...

[Already Gone]

Beta Ant,
That was a very detailed and absolutely accurate description of how a person with no tax home can establish one at his permanent home.

However, it does not say anything about when a person's expenses are deductible.  Publication 463 does.

"Temporary assignment vs. indefinite assignment.   If your assignment or job away from your main place of work is temporary, your tax home does not change. You are considered to be away from home for the whole period you are away from your main place of work. You can deduct your travel expenses if they otherwise qualify for deduction. Generally, a temporary assignment in a single location is one that is realistically expected to last (and does in fact last) for 1 year or less.

   However, if your assignment or job is indefinite, the location of the assignment or job becomes your new tax home and you cannot deduct your travel expenses while there. An assignment or job in a single location is considered indefinite if it is realistically expected to last for more than 1 year, whether or not it actually lasts for more than 1 year.

  If your assignment is indefinite, you must include in your income any amounts you receive from your employer for living expenses, even if they are called travel allowances and you account to your employer for them. You may be able to deduct the cost of relocating to your new tax home as a moving expense. See Publication 521 for more information. "

Notwithstanding the fact that what you just posted is true, the place of the assignment becomes the tax home the very instant that the employee reasonably expects it to last a year or more or if there is no definite end date.
If you have been at a site for 1 day and your boss says that you will be here another 366 days, your tax home changes on day 2 and you can no longer deduct expenses or receive tax-free per diem.  This remains true even if you are laid off before the year is up.
If you are hired, and you ask the boss "how long will I be working at this location?" and he says, "I don't know.  There is no scheduled end to this assignment."  Your tax home changes immediately and you can't deduct expenses or receive tax-free per diem.  This remains true even if you are laid off before the year is up.
If you have worked exactly one year, and the boss doesn't lay you off that day, your eligibility to deduct expenses or receive tax-free per diem stops immediately.
If you go to a six month job, and are told after three months that "They just dropped a fuel bundle, you will be here another 10 months." Your tax home changes immediately and you can't deduct expenses or receive tax-free per diem.  This remains true even if you are laid off before the year is up.

Repeated assignments to the same location for periods of less than a year will also establish that location as your tax home.

What you posted ONLY APPLIES when there is no established tax home, under which circumstances you may be able to establish your regular permanent residence as one.  BUT, as soon as you establish one elsewhere, it no longer applies.
If you have no permanent residence that can be established as your tax home (a PO Box or your parents' basement don't count) and you travel from job to job, never settling at one place most of the time, you are an itinerant worker and can NEVER deduct expenses or receive tax-free per diem until you do establish a tax home.
This is not new.  This has been the law for decades.  Sea-Lawyer it all you want but it won't change that fact.

[traveltax]

Ill chime in here responding to a couple of statements I noticed

1) A tax residence and a permanent residence are TWO different things. A permanent residence is a legal concept, whereas a tax residence is ones principal place of business/work. For temporary assignments and those who have NO principal place of income, the tax residence can default to the permanent residence provided that the taxpayer is either maintaining a home (with significant expenses)or a job at the primary residence.

2) While #1 can apply, once an assignment or series of assignments takes you beyond 12 months, your tax home shifts to the current place of work. At that point, none of the per diem can be received tax free AND you cannot deduct living expenses

3) When legitimately deducting expenses for lodging and meals, you must also report the reimbursement/pre diem received

4) Keep in mind that per diem is 60% lodging and 40% meals unless it is specified by the employer/payor. this must be reflected on the 2106

5) Almost all industries employing mobile professionals and paying per diem are under the IRS/ DOL microscope. In the healthcare travel staffing industry, over 16 agencies are under audit. This is just a fine tuning session to go after the other industries utilizing temporary staff

6) Moving expenses and business travel expenses are not the same category

7) The one year limit is a prospective concept. If you take a 13 month assignment, you already breached a year. If you have been at an assignment 10 months and sign a 3 month extension, the tax home shifts when you sign the contract, not at the 366th day.

8 ) There is no such thing as a 50 mile rune to determine "away form home". An overnight stay is the benchmark. In other words, the distance traveled should necessitate an overnight stay