Common mistakes/weaknesses in new RCTs that compromise safety

[YO!]

ANSI 3.1 Standards put SRS, Hanford and Y-12 Senior HP as 1 to 1 with Power Plants. I haven't seen anything in a power plant come close to what is at those plants. I have worked at SRS, Y-12 and many DOE sites along with many Power Plants. I have worked with many HP's and RP's. 20+ years ago there were many knowledgeable and skilled HP's and RP's. I came thru the Nuclear Engineering Program. Those of us that graduated had to know Health Physics and Reactor Operations. I have worked with Old Timers that cannot read a meter and the only way anyone found out was when plants started giving the meter test. I have worked with people fresh out of the Radiation Protection Program that don't have a clue what the Gas Amplification Curve is about, much less the purpose of the Inverse Square Law.
Many want the Title but most don't want to learn the job. They spend most of their time stirring crap and drama. There is no way to have an intelligent conversation with them because they don't have the background for it. They are politicians and drama queens. They are the big talkers and the first to run and hide when there is a real job. There are many 3.1's that got there by sitting in a chair or under the desk! I see so called 3.1's stand in the shine and don't have a clue that they can use a meter to find their low dose area. They can't protect themselves so they can't protect the worker. These are the same RP's that you can't tell anything, because they know it all. They are a danger to themselves and the people they are supposed to protect.
The true HP's and RP's are few and far between!!!

[Marlin]

ANSI 3.1 Standards put SRS, Hanford and Y-12 Senior HP as 1 to 1 with Power Plants. I haven't seen anything in a power plant come close to what is at those plants.

   I think you need to reread ANSI it makes no specific reference as to what is acceptable, that is the responsibility of facilities who are required to use this standard.

   I have worked at Y-12 and am very aware of the isotopes and conditions that they deal with and it is not comparable to a commercial plant. A number of techs I am aware of who left Y-12 for commercial plants were not given equivalent experience in large part because the experience was not equivalent.

[Already Gone]

Lots of these replies are so spot-on that I wish I had said them first.

Big mistake:  thinking that there will ever be a time when you know all you need to know.

Bigger mistake: going with the crowd on something instead of following your instincts.

Biggest mistake:  keeping your mouth shut when you have a question or see a problem because you don't want to look stupid or make waves.  If something doesn't make sense to you, there is at least a 50% chance that is because it doesn't make sense at all.

I agree with the trust but verify.  I remember a very experienced tech once surveyed a small area prior to workers entering it and finding nothing of concern.  I remember a brand new Sr. Tech sticking his meter in exactly one foot farther only a minute or so later and found a Locked High Radiation Area.  I'll bend a rule here and use his name - Brian Perkins.  By being curious, he saved the more experienced tech from a huge mistake.  That tech would be me, by the way.

Oh yeah, that reminds me, ask for peer checks whenever you possibly can.

[GLW]

Well, I'm a bit more pragmatic than the other posters,...

New RCTs should never be put in a position where they can compromise safety,...

That would be a managment/supervision fail,...

No RCT which has completed a DOE or shipyard qual program can be called new because they are qualified, should they compromise a safety aspect within their scope of work on their first day qualified that compromise  would indicate a failure of the qualification program,...

Any RCT which has legitimately earned the 18.1 or 3.1 hours and successfully qualified to the NEI 14/15 qualifications is likewise not new and the same paradigm applies,...

The anecdotes filling this thread are indicative of management/supervision failures or the empirical observation that there is an innate aspect to being a superior Health Physics professional which is recognizable but not defineable,...

As in all things,....

[mars88]

REAL safety issues are beyond anything rad.

Such as a tech thinking he can operate a manlift or a reciprocating saw.

[UncaBuffalo]

REAL safety issues are beyond anything rad.

Such as a tech thinking he can operate a manlift or a reciprocating saw.

Hmm...that one is site specific.  I've used sawzalls on plenty of demolition sites...and have been qualified on various types of scissor lifts and cherry pickers...

But I get your point...stick with what you are qualified on.

[mars88]

I appreciate the fact that you were actually qualified and knew what you were doing.

My main point is that radiation isn't the danger.  12,000 workers died in the past three years in the U.S., but not one from radiation.  Heck, 1500 were from workplace violence.

[GLW]

REAL safety issues are beyond anything rad.......

Yet another choragus for the "RP Techs are redundant, an overpopulated and unnecessary discipline" choir,...

Because self monitoring works so well,...

[Rennhack]

REAL safety issues are beyond anything rad.

Such as a tech thinking he can operate a manlift or a reciprocating saw.

[Mr.Tritium]

I am a fairly new rad tech. I am entering my 3rd outage in a few weeks and I recently obtained my green badge.

I know I don't know tons about what I do, but I would like to think I'm picking it up quickly for the jobs I'm being assigned compared to most of my newish crew.

I agree there is a issue with people not giving a flying f... about the aspects of the job. And more so the inept nature of quite a few in regards to knowing just more then "go to work, get a paycheck"

There is quite a few who I wouldent trust working on a tri cycle.

I have tried to help some who seemed to want to learn more, or at least chat about it and it usually ends up with "I know enough" yet they have issues reading a meter, always missing when a personal alarm is called in, lackluster rp procedures and refusal or worming their way out of a job in the vault.

I have nothing personal against these people, but perhaps this Isent the job for them.

I have done nothing but read and soak up as much as I can from you guys. Great learning tool. Keep it up!

May see one or two of you in darlington or pickering one day.

[RDTroja]

I appreciate the fact that you were actually qualified and knew what you were doing.

My main point is that radiation isn't the danger.  12,000 workers died in the past three years in the U.S., but not one from radiation.  Heck, 1500 were from workplace violence.

Following the same logic, industrial safety is worthless because cars kill over three times as many people as industrial accidents.

Maybe radiation is not 'the danger' because we are better at controlling the risk.

[OldHP]

Biggest mistake:  keeping your mouth shut when you have a question or see a problem because you don't want to look stupid or make waves.  If something doesn't make sense to you, there is at least a 50% chance that is because it doesn't make sense at all.

Everyone has to understand what "Stop Work Authority" means, from the Janitor to the Manager! 

Troja is correct - radiation isn't the danger, but it can be when an individual 'trained' as a NORM/TENORM 'RSO', and doesn't know the difference between micro, milli, and mega is put in a situation by a good Sr Tech so she can take a phone call.  Luckaly a good young mechanic knew his responsibility and 'shut it down'!

[S T I G]

Everyone has to understand what "Stop Work Authority" means, from the Janitor to the Manager! 

Troja is correct - radiation isn't the danger, but it can be when an individual 'trained' as a NORM/TENORM 'RSO', and doesn't know the difference between micro, milli, and mega is put in a situation by a good Sr Tech so she can take a phone call.  Luckaly a good young mechanic knew his responsibility and 'shut it down'!

How do these people even get hired if they don't know that stuff

[GLW]

....Maybe radiation is not 'the danger' because we are better at controlling the risk.

Because "we" are one of the chronic risks,...

The controls always become onerous and tight for the chronic risks for which the thresholds are ill defined,...

Falling out of a scissor lift is an acute danger with well defined thresholds for personal accountability and for cause and effect,...

Ergo, the administrative controls to prevent folks from falling out of a scissor lift are more readily definable and cost effectively implemented,...

Nobody comes back after 20 years and sues for post scissor lift traumatic disorder,...

Falling out of a scissor lift only needs to be mitigated to the point that a person does not fall out,...

Falling out of a scissor lift only needs to be mitigated to the point that when a person does fall out, it is the person's fault,...

An employee can smoke two packs of unfiltered cigarettes per day for 20 years and that smoking has no impact on their exposure to the dizzying heights of working on a scissor lift,...

Ionizing radiation, asbestos, cracking and fracking,...

not so much,....

although some of the powers that be do try to push the paradigm for "rad" safety towards the same paradigm as "scissor lift" safety,...

after all, "scissor lift" safety is recognized as being more cost effective,...

ergo, "self-monitoring",...

in a world of golden parachutes and frequent corporate turnovers the chronic illness class action lawsuit out on the 20 to 30 year horizon is not going to snatch one dollar from the golden parachute beneficiary of today,...

next weeks dead scissor lift operator will,...

do not they teach this stuff to those two year RCT whiz kids and stimulus spawn?!?!?!?

[ddickey]

How do these people even get hired if they don't know that stuff

They interview well.

[mars88]

Following the same logic, industrial safety is worthless because cars kill over three times as many people as industrial accidents.

Maybe radiation is not 'the danger' because we are better at controlling the risk.

WOW, JUST WOW.

Cars WOULD be controlled if they were a leading WORKPLACE-RELATED cause of death.  This topic is about the workplace, not homelife.

[RDTroja]

WOW, JUST WOW.

Cars WOULD be controlled if they were a leading WORKPLACE-RELATED cause of death.  This topic is about the workplace, not homelife.

Risk is risk. Many car related deaths ARE work related. Your argument is specious... no matter how many wows you include.

[GLW]

WOW, JUST WOW.

Cars WOULD be controlled if they were a leading WORKPLACE-RELATED cause of death.  This topic is about the workplace, not homelife.

OSHA publications place motor vehicle fatalities at between 35 and 40 percent of all occupational related deaths from year to year,...

Typically better than 1700 deaths per year,....

Between 35 and 40 percent is probably a leading cause of occupational fatalities,...

Perhaps not, perhaps your data is better than OSHA's on this narrow aspect of occupational fatalities,...

If so, please share,...

[rameysdz]

One common issue that I see with newer RCT's, is that they are often times intimidated by their more experienced cow workers or supervisors, and may be less likely to ask advice for either HP technical questions/ concerns, or questions related to job coverage ect.,  I have seen this lead to both minor, and major mistakes.  I believe it is extremely important and beneficial for the more senior technicians, lead techs and supervisors, to do their best to break down those walls of intimidation.  Health Physics is vast field, which has changed in many ways throughout the last couple decades, mainly the increase in computerized technology. Writing surveys and calculating air samples by hand has almost become non -existent these days, as well as other calculations that were once performed in the field by hand.  On top of that, with the serious lack of work for Jr. RCT’s, there is the resume fudging factor that comes into play just to attain work in the early years.  One common path for attaining Sr.RCT status over the last decade, has been site characterization and final status jobs. These jobs are often longer term, and for many of the technicians in the field, it only requires minimal technical knowledge, and job coverage skills, if any.  From there, a little tweaking of the resume, a good connection and poof….Now you find yourself covering actual High Rad / High Contamination work, and too afraid to say you have never covered work of this nature before.  At this point it can be sink or swim for the new RCT.  I have made it a point during the resume reviewing and accepting process, to only put some much regard into it. Once the new RCT arrives, I like to offer an intimidation free environment where the new technician will feel comfortable asking questions, and also be forthcoming about what their true experience level is.  I have used this approach, and have had great success with it.  I believe the vastness of the HP field itself along with the many different ways a person can enter the field, can and will leave quite a learning curve once the RCT is taken out of his or her comfort zone. This holds true for new RCT’s as well as 20,30, 40 year veterans that have not had the luxury of working in a multitude of different radiological environments.  Aside from this, everyone is wired differently. I have seen some of the most analytically and technically sound RCT’s that are unable to perform effectively in many of the more common RCT field environments. Having said that, I know many experienced / field strong RCT’s that that know very little about the instrumentation that they are using, other the turning it on..source check ect.   

[GLW]

One common issue that I see with newer RCT's,.....Now you find yourself covering actual High Rad / High Contamination work, and too afraid to say you have never covered work of this nature before.  At this point it can be sink or swim for the new RCT.  I have made it a point during the resume reviewing and accepting process, to only put some much regard into it. Once the new RCT arrives, I like to offer an intimidation free environment where the new technician will feel comfortable asking questions, and also be forthcoming about what their true experience level is.........  

Nice post, my position is different, if their resume states or indicates they have refuel & SFP, pool to pad, major component replacement, hi rad, hi alpha, shipping, etc. and then two weeks into a five week outage they come "upfront" with you to let you know they really do not have the foggiest idea what to expect or how to protect the occupational worker it's time to launch or reassign them,...

You can be as warm and fuzzy as you choose to be but I would submit to you that if your peer coaching fails and that faux senior screws it up big time or even small time, and then, as part of the root cause that same faux senior informs the investigator(s) that they told you they were unqualified but you elected to "coach" them through what they were not qualified to perform, if I'm the investigator, I'm gonna nail you to the cross (that's a metaphorical "I"),...

Which leaves you in the position of fessing up to the "coaching" allegation or denying you ever made such a pact and hanging the faux senior out there all by themselves,...

Because you carry the responsibility, once you are aware of it, to not let an unqualified individual impact the radiation protection of the occupational workers or the general public,...

And I would be stunned if you could produce a single GET or CBOT or ethics module at any commercial facility which would train or endorse you to "coach" an unqualified individual (whose resume was misleading) as they performed the technical and safety relevant aspects of their duties whenever you could make time for it away from your own duties,...

That's how I see it, if you choose to assert you have the authority to make that judgement call on behalf of the licensee, then that's how you see it and we will have to agree to disagree,...

[Schiner]

I'll reiterate what several have already said.  As a relatively frequent hirer of new techs including techs from the program the OP came from there are several things that stick out to me including:
1. Yes.  Not being able to convert 200cpm on the X100 scale into dpm.  I understand you have 10 things going on at once and there are Sr RCTs or RCSs looking at you waiting for info.  Alot of folks brains lock up in that situation.  Just stop, calm down, and do the simple math.  To help techs that struggle with this, I have a file with a list of meter faces showing needle readings and scale indicators just so they can practice.
2. Not questioning things that seem wrong to you.  "Well that isn't how I was trained to do it, but since a Sr is doing it that way, I will too."  Bad, bad, bad.  (and shame on the Srs for teaching bad habits - all too common)  Ask others if you are not sure about a practice you're being taught.
3. "I got this."  Being a know-it-all as a junior RCT is rarely a good thing, because usually you don't.  Allow others to give you direction and be appreciative for their input.
4. My biggest pet peeve is green RCTs that simply go through the motions.  Its vital to know HOW to do your various RCT tasks, but just as important for your growth as an RCT is to understand the WHY of what you are being asked to do.  Sure, I know how to survey around this connection point, but why am I being asked to do it?
There are probably a hundred other things I could add, but I'll stop for now.

[mars88]

You are not better at controlling risk--there is just such a minimal risk, you are lulled into that fallacy.  Then when some major incident happens, you are all like newborns.

And BTW, OSHA DOES control vehicle safety in its construction standard.  You guys should have known that.

[Marlin]

3. "I got this."  Being a know-it-all as a junior RCT is rarely a good thing, because usually you don't.  Allow others to give you direction and be appreciative for their input.

Good point but I would apply this to Senior techs as well, especially contract techs in a plant they haven't worked before. 

[Marlin]

You are not better at controlling risk--there is just such a minimal risk, you are lulled into that fallacy.  Then when some major incident happens, you are all like newborns.

And BTW, OSHA DOES control vehicle safety in its construction standard.  You guys should have known that.

Couple of points:

-I completely agree about radiological risk however mitigating regulatory and legal risks for the licensee are part of the job.

-When answering a post using the quote function helps the flow of the thread. To start a post with the quote included just hit the quote button and it will open inside your dialogue box. With the dialogue box open scroll down to the post you want to insert and hit the quote button, it will open it in your dialogue box where your cursor is located.

[rameysdz]

Nice post, my position is different, if their resume states or indicates they have refuel & SFP, pool to pad, major component replacement, hi rad, hi alpha, shipping, etc. and then two weeks into a five week outage they come "upfront" with you to let you know they really do not have the foggiest idea what to expect or how to protect the occupational worker it's time to launch or reassign them,...

You can be as warm and fuzzy as you choose to be but I would submit to you that if your peer coaching fails and that faux senior screws it up big time or even small time, and then, as part of the root cause that same faux senior informs the investigator(s) that they told you they were unqualified but you elected to "coach" them through what they were not qualified to perform, if I'm the investigator, I'm gonna nail you to the cross (that's a metaphorical "I"),...

Which leaves you in the position of fessing up to the "coaching" allegation or denying you ever made such a pact and hanging the faux senior out there all by themselves,...

Because you carry the responsibility, once you are aware of it, to not let an unqualified individual impact the radiation protection of the occupational workers or the general public,...

And I would be stunned if you could produce a single GET or CBOT or ethics module at any commercial facility which would train or endorse you to "coach" an unqualified individual (whose resume was misleading) as they performed the technical and safety relevant aspects of their duties whenever you could make time for it away from your own duties,...

That's how I see it, if you choose to assert you have the authority to make that judgement call on behalf of the licensee, then that's how you see it and we will have to agree to disagree,...

I do agree with you to a point. There is really no a one size fits all solution. I feel that common sense along with a strong sense of awareness play a huge role in the strength of an RCT. There are times when a certain RCT is way out their league experience wise, and some just lack the common sense needed , as well as a constant sense of awareness to cover certain work.  The experience and qualifications needed for an RCT / HP covering short duration refuel outage type work differs greatly , then say DOE research work. And vice versa .   Though I come from the commercial world initially, I have worked on the outside for the last 15 years, as have many RCT’s due to short duration of outages.  The facility that I have currently worked at for the last five years is very unique, one of only a couple in the world. The majority of the long term contractors that have worked for me over the last few years come in very under qualified to support and cover work here.  For the most part these have very been qualified, and competent RCT’s, and have had a willingness to expand their technical knowledge.  This facility has many exotic isotopes, Including many trans – uranic. Routine high rad and high contamination work is performed daily all year round. The majority of technicians that come to work here from commercial power have never worked with DAC values of E-12, and have never seen most of the isotopes that we work with, accept in the chart of nuclides. Unless I see that the RCT is seriously lacking basic HP knowledge, and or, is lacking serious common sense, I allow time for the learning curve.  As they progress, so will their work load. It is far more beneficial to bring them up to speed, rather then reassign, or let them go.  Aside from the actual Rad work that is performed, we cover much of the IH work performed in the field as well.  Also, interacting with the researchers can have it’s own challenges as well, so there is a serious learning curve there as well.