Looking for some criticism

[spupower]

As a preface: this isn't a good read for new nukes or prospective nukes

Hey guys, I am an ELT SPU at Ballston Spa, Graduated top on class and first to qualify MM and ELT at prototype. I don't know if my opinion is really a good perspective on the situation because I only have 3 years in the program and I don't struggle with it so I have trouble finding where "average" is for a nuke. I hope it doesn't come off like I think I am better because I know better than that.

In my class the people who could not qualify in the 24 weeks got dropped. No exceptions. If people couldn't pass tests or boards they got one retry and an occasional third attempt, and then then got dropped. Staff generally just tried to find the weak people and cut them out of the program and once someone was gone they found the next weakest and worked on them. Attrition has since drastically dropped.

As a staff member I have watched as the standard has lowered, we stopped getting concurrence to drop people more often, the blame for delinquent students started shifting to the staff, the questions from management are now "what are you doing to qualify your student" instead of "why aren't your students qualified yet". When someone is considered weak as a student we hold their hand and push them through quals. There is now a war on attrition, we look at the students we can't get to qualify and try to figure out how we can get around those problems with the next weak student.

I was almost physically ill one training cycle when the CO and training manager talked to staff and said they think we don't use the full grading scale enough, essentially saying that we need to move our standard without actually saying that. We continue to try to fit more students in a training cycle than possible, with NR trying to fit every possible student in even if we say we can't. The point where we kind of realized the direction we were going was when one student was extended in quals to 32 weeks.

My request is to the more experienced sailors out there: I cant honestly say I feel we are producing the world's best nuclear operators anymore. I don't believe our mission is to make the best operators, but to make as many watch-standing bodies as possible. Every time I fail a student for not meeting the standard I have to justify to someone of higher rank why I did it, and get told how hard it makes our schedule. I have tried m best to shield my division from this but I can only do so much and I am worried when I leave the outside forces will crush my junior SPUs and they will just start passing everyone. I don't think we operate to Rickover's standards anymore and I think if he saw how we train he would shut us down.

On top of this, while on one hand raising the work load, NR, as well as the KSO site, is just making it harder to do anything. Obviously I cant be specific but the bureaucracy and red tape on literally anything you do in a day will double the time it should take at a minimum. The average working day for a staff member is 10-12 hours, not to mention collateral duties or supervisors.

Is this just a bad few years at the prototype or is this a bad trend? I would never consider reenlisting after my tour here because I know the only possible shore tour to come back to is prototype, but I still feel the program is headed downhill with this shift to quantity over quality. What do you guys think?

from a concerned junior nuke

[Chimera]

Training has always been a balancing act between getting "everyone" qualified and weeding out the weak links.  The man-power requirements of the fleet need to be balanced with the quality of the candidates available to fill those spots.  Getting the "best and the brightest" out to the fleet is relatively easy.  It's all those out-liers that make the training world difficult.  As a civilian trainer, I know that if my failure rate is too high, I will be looked at more closely to see if I'm doing my job correctly.  Ultimately, the tests and boards are your tools.  That is where you establish the criteria - all pass, 10% failure rate, 50% failure rate, get rid of the dead wood, etc.  It would appear that you are being tasked with altering your passing criteria.  Perhaps you and the other TCs need to sit down and determine what is "necessary" knowledge, what is good ancillary knowledge and how much of the remaining stuff is an ooly(sp).  As an example, as an RO candidate I had no need of the detailed knowledge of the boost and buck windings on the MG sets although that was a favorite board question for RO and MO candidates.  Perhaps the type of questions an ORSE board asks might help with this "new" perspective.

Anecdotal note: A few years after I left the Navy, I ran into my old LPO.  We discussed the perceived weaknesses of the new sailors entering the fleet from the prototypes.  I asked him if he had seen us (my group of baby nukes) the same way we were seeing the new baby nukes several years later when it was my turn to be LPO.  I held the new nukes in contempt for their general lack of knowledge - at least, that was how I perceived it.  He told me his group of sailors saw us the same way.  We didn't know anything and were lazy.  To put that story in perspective, I was class 69-3.  The people who trained me seemed to know everything.  I felt I knew a lot.  Those coming after me seemed to know even less. 

[Marlin]

Anecdotal note: A few years after I left the Navy, I ran into my old LPO.  We discussed the perceived weaknesses of the new sailors entering the fleet from the prototypes.  I asked him if he had seen us (my group of baby nukes) the same way we were seeing the new baby nukes several years later when it was my turn to be LPO.  I held the new nukes in contempt for their general lack of knowledge - at least, that was how I perceived it.  He told me his group of sailors saw us the same way.  We didn't know anything and were lazy.  To put that story in perspective, I was class 69-3.  The people who trained me seemed to know everything.  I felt I knew a lot.  Those coming after me seemed to know even less. 

   We served in a very different Navy we had washout rates up to 90% at a times in the pipeline with a fleet of 600 ships and over 100 submarines. Today with a fleet below 300 and many fewer submarines the balancing act of managing manpower is much different as there is not as many non nuclear places to send washouts. I understand that washouts today may not even be retained by the Navy if there are no billets for them. I agree with most of your comments I remember asking shipmates how the hell did these new guys get through Nuke school, like you I have mellowed a bit with age I was only a few years behind you in class 71-2. One of the members of my SubVets chapter was a Nuke school instructor in the early 60's and I hear much the same from him, it appears the more we change the more we stay the same. 

Needs of the Navy is the trump card.

 

 

[ChiefRocscooter]

Look the show will go on after you leave, you are a cog in the machine for now do your best to make things right and you will always be able to look yourself in the mirror!  The program has shifted from a high quality filter to a big pump!  Do your best to help the sailors that will help themselves.  The Navy of today is not the Navy of the 60's,70's,80's,90' , or even the Navy of the 00's.  Thing are getting "bad" in a lot of ways, (to be fair good in others) and I am not sure how "bad" it will get.  Do your time, work hard, get your "education", and weather you stay or bail the NAVY will go on.  Do what is right for you when the time come because you can bet the Navy will do what is "right" for it,  if that happens to work for you, "Great" if not well "oh well".

[GLW]

to the OP,...

there is nothing new in this thread that has not been iterated on these forums dozens of times over the last dozen years,....

and you're right to be worried, things have changed, people can be sinister bitches, sometimes you can even get beat and separated out simply because you posted here,...

no one is nearly as anonymous as they expect to be on the web,...

first to qualify both MM & ELT at KSO?!?!

I (the metaphorical "I") can already narrow you down to six or fewer SPUs currently at KSO,...

in a couple more posts, or with a simple process of elimination, "I" can nail you down,...

and my Big Navy persona does not like what you are posting,....

then again, OPs can always delete the threads they start,....

print all the answers on the thread first though, they are wise and good answers all of them,...

almost forgot,...thank you for your service and keep the faith,.....the big leagues still await,...

[Fermi2]

You've never produced the worlds best nuclear operators. The civilian industry did that...

[spupower]

I would like to see civilians get permission from anyone to build a nuclear submarine, or use weapons grade nuclear material, just saying .

>Broadzilla, is that you in the video? nice singing voice.

[BuddyThePug]

I would like to see civilians get permission from anyone to build a nuclear submarine, or use weapons grade nuclear material, just saying .

Hey, genius, ever heard of Pantex? Or Oak Ridge? Those aren't EM3s doing that work.

Thanks for demonstrating how the knowledge level at NAVSEA has titrated down to Kool-Aid. 

[spupower]

If you missed my point, neither of those are reactors that allowed to travel the entire world freely with their own regulatory agency; one isn't even a reactor facility. Rickover built this program so well that he was called before congress to tell them the reason his program had operated so long without incident. The navy has never stopped building reactors and no one questions our safety, NR is also requested by other organizations for technical expertise on nuclear power to perform audits or give advice. That doesn't mean civilian plants are bad, regulations are still very strict and level of knowledge is still high, I have heard from friends that SRO is one of the most challenging things they have had to do as a qual. I'm not even sure why I am arguing this point anymore, NR=0 accidents.

[SA82]

If you are wondering if it will get any better, then the answer is no. You will just have to add going to sea on top of all of the frustration. I have been out for a year after doing ten years. You will find that "getting the boat out to sea", and signing off on the things that accomplish that (ORSE, maintenance), are what matters to your officers. Knowlegde and good watch standing are secondary to the primary goal (as well as common sense).

The only reason to sign another contract is for the simple reason of whether you like your job and believe in it. Otherwise, make the most of your education benefits, learn as much as you can, and add things to your resume. Then get out and find a new job (while re-inserting common sense into your work day).  I took that approach and I have never been happier.

[Gamecock]

NR is also requested by other organizations for technical expertise on nuclear power to perform audits or give advice.

Who?!?

[spupower]

How about reviewing the destruction of Columbia and the Challenger, US Congress, this is all on google

[Marlin]

How about reviewing the destruction of Columbia and the Challenger, US Congress, this is all on google

   When answering a question the use of the Quote function helps avoid confusion for those who are trying to follow a thread or side bars of that thread (better know as "Off Topic" posts).

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[Fermi2]

I would like to see civilians get permission from anyone to build a nuclear submarine, or use weapons grade nuclear material, just saying .

>Broadzilla, is that you in the video? nice singing voice.

Ever hear of Savannah River and you do know civilian enrichment is weapons grade right?

Again the Navy never produced the worlds best Nuclear Operators. The civilians always did it better and I have been both Nuke Nsavy back when it did produce quality operators, And I have operated BWRs and PWRs in the civilian world. I KNOW which one does it better.

[Fermi2]

How about reviewing the destruction of Columbia and the Challenger, US Congress, this is all on google

Incorrect, NASA relied on INPO a Civilian organization...

[Marlin]

Again the Navy never produced the worlds best Nuclear Operators. The civilians always did it better and I have been both Nuke Nsavy back when it did produce quality operators, And I have operated BWRs and PWRs in the civilian world. I KNOW which one does it better.

   Apples and Oranges the Navy does produce the best nuclear propulsion plant operators which is their goal. Navy operators perform their job at a very young age in isolation from all of the support that a commercial plant enjoys in a much faster responding reactor. Commercial plants are much better staffed with most personnel far more specialized than the multirole functions required in the Navy, again at a much younger average age workforce.

   

[Fermi2]

Incorrect From an Ops end I would guarantee I can take any commercial operator and make them into a Navy Nuke. History has shown it does't work in reverse.

After all it was Rickover who told the JCAE that "I design my plants so a monkey can operate them"

[Fermi2]

And if desired you can move a Civilian plant at nearly the same rate as a Navy Plant. I know, I've done it. At EOL a Naval Operator has nowhere near the core considerations due to Pu239 that a Civilian plant does. If he wants to say we have the best T Ball Players in the world I will agree. But as for nuclear operators, not even close.

[Marlin]

Incorrect From an Ops end I would guarantee I can take any commercial operator and make them into a Navy Nuke. History has shown it does't work in reverse.

When has that ever happened? By the time a commercial operator qualifies he is too old to be considered for Navy service.
A watch station many times had no one over 25 years of age with an Engineer in charge of the Department no older than 30. These watchstanders also did most of the maintenance and testing with little or no support. Again Apples and Oranges, what about the operators of experimental reactors who perform outside the norms of power production???

After all it was Rickover who told the JCAE that "I design my plants so a monkey can operate them"

There are just more monkeys with smaller scope of work each. 

And if desired you can move a Civilian plant at nearly the same rate as a Navy Plant. I know, I've done it. At EOL a Naval Operator has nowhere near the core considerations due to Pu239 that a Civilian plant does. If he wants to say we have the best T Ball Players in the world I will agree. But as for nuclear operators, not even close.

Opinion every facility or ship I have been to claims to be the best. Empirical evidence???

[Gamecock]

How about reviewing the destruction of Columbia and the Challenger, US Congress, this is all on google

I once was like you.....

I believed that NR, with its engineers and its field representatives, was the greatest organization in the world with the smartest people around.....

then I worked there   

Let's just say that once you've been inside the sausage factory, you'll never eat sausage again.....

[GLW]

Looking for some criticsm

well, I reckon if you keep jerking chains you'll eventually get it,....

the big difference between you (the OP) and the people you are arguing with is that the people you are arguing with have already walked in your shoes and you have not walked around in theirs,....

nice to see the NNPP still pushes the "best of the best of the best" hoorah,....

it's good for building an elite fighting group,...

that's what it's all about, you are being trained to operate the engineering spaces of a warship, what the Navy needs from a submariner in the engineering spaces is that bravado that compels a young man to die from drowning with his hand on the valve handle rather than being curled up in a fetal position as the boat fills with ocean and drifts ever closer to crush depth, all so the true warrior; the captain on the bridge, can get one more torpedo on target and turn sacrifice into victory,...

it's not about you, never has been, it's all about the warship, Rickover's program was about the warship, you are just the lucky beneficiary of a program that proves to lots of smart people outside the program that you are trainable and adaptable, and probably worth taking a risk on when investing the time and money it takes to build a qualified operator,...

I was one of those top of the class MM becomes an ELT submariner once upon a time ago, I was also one of those conventional skimmers playing at water king on a Gearing class destroyer as a MMFN in thrall to the 2nd class who was technically the real water king,....

there were some great operators on conventional destroyers, maybe 1 out of every 10, but that was good enough for Big Navy, it was not good enough for the nuclear submarines, so Rickover was the right man at the right time,...

is that level of operator needed nowadays?!?!

indications are that Big Navy thinks not,....

do you wanna know what "equivalent Co60" really means?!?!

it means some really smart guy at 08 has dumbed down all the pertinent data to something a monkey can work with,....

if I tried to justify the actions I perform in my current line of employment with "Co60 equivalent" I'd probably be invited to partake of the generous unemployment benefits of my home state,....

also, an MM/ELT SPU is nowhere near the operator a BWR or PWR SRO is,...

so don't argue like it is, it's not, it's just not,...

you've done well to get where you are, just don't get all Anakin Skywalker on us padawan,...

somewhere on thse threads, as alluded to in an earlier post on this thread there is a phenomal observation that went something like this;

"You can't fix the Navy, the Navy ain't broke"

[spekkio]

Spu,

I think that you should serve a few years at sea before you make your final judgement about the quality of nuke that should (or shouldn't) enter the fleet.

I have my own reservations about prototype, but...

Your 'training' doesn't stop at prototype. Your first 3 months onboard a sub are spent getting berated by the cooks, especially the ones junior in rank to you that hate the fact you show up to a sub as an E-5 without dolphins. After that time you go through qualifications that take a year and a half. This is where you learn how to actually do your job instead of the bad habits picked up from prototype, albeit there's really not a whole lot different when it comes to ELT.

You first qualify a junior watchstation where you take logs, clean a lot, and someone is always around to watch you until you prove that you have a handle on things. Once you show you've got a handle on things is about the point you qualify senior-in-rate, 18 months after you first report onboard, but you won't stand that watch for quite some time in normal circumstances.

Your main function in a casualty for junior watchstations will be to accurately report it (which seems to be a real challenge for a lot of people), take immediate actions that are relatively simple in nature, and perhaps get a fire extinguisher to the scene. After that, you simply do what the off-going EWS (or LELT) tells you to do.

Does it take more smarts than being, say, a BM? Absolutely. Are baby nukes expected to solve world hunger in their first month onboard? No.

Where the current philosophy does a disservice to the fleet is when it fails to weed out the bad apples, as in the ones who refuse to put their nose to the grindstone and learn their jobs. Instead, those guys seem to get kicked to the fleet where they eventually go see the chaplain and become unplanned losses. Some of them were smart guys, too. A guy with borderline LOK in prototype can make it in the fleet as long as he continues to work hard and be a team player. A guy who has a bad work ethic, even if he's smarter than the average bear, will not make it.

[spupower]

So just to clarify this, you guys are ok with them not even sticking to the 24 week requirement anymore? Because while I am sure we can literally train anyone to operate in these plants, and yes I know "equivalent Co-60" is stupid and it actually confuses more people coming in that it helps. There are those times where intelligence actually matters and I feel like the fact that we drag people kicking and screaming to their boards is really wrong.

I know I am junior and I haven't seen the fleet but I have seen huge, huge changes at prototype in my few years here and it just seems like they are looking at production over quality, I used to hear people say that attrition is part of a high standard, now any time a student is disenrolled we investigate why we as staff failed to qualify them.

[spekkio]

Do you have any data to back up anecdotal claims on the trend of lowering standards in prototype in the last 10 years (attrition rate, GPA, ASVAB scores and high school GPA before entering the program)? Any data on the effects of sending supposedly lower quality nukes to the fleet (unplanned losses, number of incident reports per year, number of sailors who fail to qualify senior in rate in 18 months, longer maintenance availability accomplishment times, etc)?

Because until you have that data, you're just talking out of your ass.

Also, I don't know if you've been paying attention to the news on your last 3 years of shore duty, but the DoD isn't exactly being given a blank check. If keeping a baby nuke around 2 weeks longer to qualify is cheaper than sending him home and replacing him with someone else from day one, and keeping him around won't cause any negative consequences in the fleet at a higher rate, then why should the Navy de-nuke him?

[Marlin]

I know I am junior and I haven't seen the fleet but I have seen huge, huge changes at prototype in my few years here and it just seems like they are looking at production over quality, I used to hear people say that attrition is part of a high standard, now any time a student is disenrolled we investigate why we as staff failed to qualify them.

   Sounds like a lean management expecting it's instructors to do their job and holding your feet to the fire. It will not change in the civilian world if you are a supervisor, especially if your subordinates are in a union you will have to document everything prior to taking any action.

[GLW]

So just to clarify this, you guys are ok with them not even sticking to the 24 week requirement anymore? Because while I am sure we can literally train anyone to operate in these plants, and yes I know "equivalent Co-60" is stupid and it actually confuses more people coming in that it helps. There are those times where intelligence actually matters and I feel like the fact that we drag people kicking and screaming to their boards is really wrong....

[spupower]

Do you have any data to back up anecdotal claims on the trend of lowering standards in prototype in the last 10 years (attrition rate, GPA, ASVAB scores and high school GPA before entering the program)? Any data on the effects of sending supposedly lower quality nukes to the fleet (unplanned losses, number of incident reports per year, number of sailors who fail to qualify senior in rate in 18 months, longer maintenance availability accomplishment times, etc)?

Because until you have that data, you're just talking out of your ass.

Also, I don't know if you've been paying attention to the news on your last 3 years of shore duty, but the DoD isn't exactly being given a blank check. If keeping a baby nuke around 2 weeks longer to qualify is cheaper than sending him home and replacing him with someone else from day one, and keeping him around won't cause any negative consequences in the fleet at a higher rate, then why should the Navy de-nuke him?

I dont know the classification of the data you mention and I dont want to pull a Snowden. It would be cheaper to extend them but if they haven't qualified by their date they are a lazy shit and no one has any faith in them. I doubt they succeed outside of our VERY accommodating training command. If staff at prototype say drops someone we don't just want less work we legitimately have tried every alternative and they are not fit for the job.

you need to find yourself a girl mate

[BuddyThePug]

I dont know the classification of the data you mention and I dont want to pull a Snowden.

+1 for respecting OPSEC

It would be cheaper to extend them but if they haven't qualified by their date they are a lazy shit and no one has any faith in them.

Nubs qualify at different learning speeds....remember why Power School has a dozen or more "sections" ? Yes, the proto time needs to be limited, but I doubt anyone can say there is data to prove 8 months would be excessive vs. the current time limit (which was determined by hard-core old-school guys with buzzcuts and sliderules while your folks were still watching cartoons, btw)

I doubt they succeed outside of our VERY accommodating training command.

Then it becomes the Fleet's problem. As a professional, you should find it shameful that the Fleet is sent anything but the best.

If staff at prototype say drops someone we don't just want less work we legitimately have tried every alternative and they are not fit for the job.

Agree...but by now you have likely figured that Big Navy wants to fill quotas of every hue, gender, World of Warcraft skillz and bunkmate preference in Nuclear, so dropping all those snowflakes that become an avalanche makes YOU the problem for being a duplex strainer vice pump. The root cause of that dichotomy, IMHO, can be traced back to 'Laurel and Hardy' (that's another lookup, shipmate! )

[spekkio]

I dont know the classification of the data you mention...

 It's really simple -- you look at the bolded (and possibly colored) lettering in the top/bottom margin of the page/slide you are viewing.

If you don't know, it means you haven't seen it.

I doubt they succeed outside of our VERY accommodating training command.

Yea, I remember how 'accomodating' the staff at prototype really was. When MARF was behind thanks to a training hold, guess how many instructors stayed during plus-hours to give students checkouts and ensure they graduated on time? Guess how many instructors would even give you the time of day if you weren't in their section? I had to show up to work 45 minutes early because if I wasn't in the top 3 on the checkout list, I wasn't going to get one. Gotta get those smoke breaks in. The only saving grace is that as an officer they let you flex hours, but if I were an enlisted student then being called 'lazy' for not spending an extra hour at work to work around lazy staff members would have pissed me off.

Group study is allowed at prototype if supervised by a staff member. Despite the proven benefits of group study, guess how many staff members would volunteer to sit in a group study room when I was at prototype? Guess how many instructors were willing to sit in the maneuvering mockup to assist casualty gundrills?

But some jackass E-5 always made sure to shout "NO TALKING IN THE TRAINING AREA" at the top of his lungs every 15 minutes. That was much less distracting than the guy I couldn't hear whispering 2 rows over.

The biggest immediate difference I saw between prototype and the boat was that people on the boat actually cared if you qualified and went out of their way to help you. I seriously doubt that there was a 'prompt jump' culture shift there that has changed that.

PS: The only TRACOMs you know are A-school, NNPS, and NPTU. So how do you know that NPTU is 'very accomodating?'

[spupower]

 It's really simple -- you look at the bolded (and possibly colored) lettering in the top/bottom margin of the page/slide you are viewing.

If you don't know, it means you haven't seen it.

As it turns out its not that simple, because if it doesn't have markings it is still Nuclear-Unclassified, which is still not to be discussed, I can just tell you haven't actually read the security manual, .

 Yea, I remember how 'accomodating' the staff at prototype really was. When MARF was behind thanks to a training hold, guess how many instructors stayed during plus-hours to give students checkouts and ensure they graduated on time? Guess how many instructors would even give you the time of day if you weren't in their section? I had to show up to work 45 minutes early because if I wasn't in the top 3 on the checkout list, I wasn't going to get one. Gotta get those smoke breaks in. The only saving grace is that as an officer they let you flex hours, but if I were an enlisted student then being called 'lazy' for not spending an extra hour at work to work around lazy staff members would have pissed me off.

well then, you haven't been to proototype in a while, most staff work a minimum of 10 hours. it is very common to stay late to get long checkouts done. The married guys dont see their families on working days usually. It also turns out if you have a personality even the "lazy" staff will go out of their way to help you

Group study is allowed at prototype if supervised by a staff member. Despite the proven benefits of group study, guess how many staff members would volunteer to sit in a group study room when I was at prototype? Guess how many instructors were willing to sit in the maneuvering mockup to assist casualty gundrills?

so... yeah you definitely haven't been to prototype in a while, group study is allowed it is just limited to small groups

But some jackass E-5 always made sure to shout "NO TALKING IN THE TRAINING AREA" at the top of his lungs every 15 minutes. That was much less distracting than the guy I couldn't hear whispering 2 rows over.

If we yell at someone for talking, it is in an office, so as not to disturb anyone else, and if you talk in the training area, you do get yelled at

The biggest immediate difference I saw between prototype and the boat was that people on the boat actually cared if you qualified and went out of their way to help you. I seriously doubt that there was a 'prompt jump' culture shift there that has changed that.

Once again, you clearly havent been to prototype in a while, just today a chief came and asked me (I am in charge of divisional training) how I am limiting my students, not why they are not doing their job. The expectation is that I stay late and do runtime until they catch the curve.

PS: The only TRACOMs you know are A-school, NNPS, and NPTU. So how do you know that NPTU is 'very accomodating?'

1. you forgot bootcamp
    2. because we literally are not allowed to close doors due to some student saying opening a door is intimidating
    3. because we CAN'T EVEN CLOSE DOORS because it made ONE STUDENT feel uncomfortable
    4. because I have literally been assigned to a student (like a watch) to one on one guide them through quals.

[BuddyThePug]

PS: The only TRACOMs you know are A-school, NNPS, and NPTU. So how do you know that NPTU is 'very accomodating?'

1. you forgot bootcamp
    2. because we literally are not allowed to close doors due to some student saying opening a door is intimidating
    3. because we CAN'T EVEN CLOSE DOORS because it made ONE STUDENT feel uncomfortable
    4. because I have literally been assigned to a student (like a watch) to one on one guide them through quals.

I agree with you here spu....more bleach needs to be added to the gene pool at Boot and A School to weed out the panic attacks and sad pandas at the cost-effective earliest opportunity. Gee, I wonder if being at MOPP 4 for hours during real GQ will crush their feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeling s ?!?

"Sorry Chief, I can't use this lockwire...it isn't certified Vegan and cruelty-free"  

[leavingreality]

To the OP,

You're going to have to swallow a very hard and bitter pill for nuclear Navy types to swallow. This is even more important for a staff pick-up. Not only have you been told for two years that you are the best and the brightest that the Navy has to offer, you've been told that you are the best of THAT bunch, too. I would think a couple years as a staff pick-up would clear you up from those delusions, but apparently not.

The fact of the matter is, you're a nobody right now. Your opinion means nothing to the Navy. They don't want it. You're a low-level trainer with no practical experience complaining that we're letting the Navy down. How would you know?

You're also in the military and as has already been pointed out, it's not very wise to be griping about the military in a public forum online. You may not see it as such, but I'm flinching at the potential damage you are doing right now to your career.

They are paying you a lot of money to do exactly what you're told. You took an oath to do exactly what you're told. Preferably without complaining. Until the time that you get to the place where you're setting policy, I promise you that's exactly what they want you to do. Give solid, uncomplaining advice if asked. Otherwise just keep quiet and deal with the apparent goofiness of the system. You'll be much happier in your job and people will think much more highly of you.

I spent eleven years in the Navy and it took me about 9 to figure that out. It was a waste of time. And if you decide that you really think the Navy is out of their mind and not right for you, training experience is priceless when you go to apply for jobs in the civilian world. Finish your degree and you'll be a shoe-in for any supervisor job you want.

[spekkio]

Stuff...

You have a stupid answer for everything, don't you?

-Nuclear-Unclass refers to Naval Nuclear Propulsion. Manning is a different set of worms. I've been to manning briefs, one given by the VCNO. Seen all sorts of [unclassified] slides about retention, quality of assessions, etc. And based on what I've seen and what you're saying, you're talking out of your ass. But I will be happy to go read whatever it is you're reading that says otherwise. I'll even go hunt for it on SIPR, because I'm genuinely curious. After all, the VCNO told us less than 6 months ago that changes to the retirement are in the works but they won't affect current AD personnel, so he's not infallable.

-I suspect staff stays late because they are either directly ordered to or are threatened with punitive action if students fall behind -- things that didn't happen when I was there. You also missed the point about group study. The 'accomodating' staff you refer to could not be bothered with doing their jobs to assist students at a time where the command was severely behind. The command climate you work in now is a result of that attitude. The staff's arm is being twisted to help students because it has proven that it won't if left to its own discretion. Would you continue to work 10+ hour days if your LCPO wasn't up your ass about your students? My guess is no, considering you feel strong enough about your students' lack of work ethic to post a rant on the internet.

And this line:

It also turns out if you have a personality even the "lazy" staff will go out of their way to help you

at least shows the attitude toward lack of personal accountability still resides with the staff there. Are you telling me that you have to like a student to do your job?

-Of course I've been out of prototype for a while, you asked for someone with fleet experience to give you his opinion. My opinion is that you don't know what you're talking about and you are using anecdotal evidence to draw conclusions about what is good for the Navy. Trust the system, work at sea for a few years, and then you can tell us if you still think that prototype is producing sailors capable of functioning in the fleet.

I will leave you with this little bit of advice, although I suspect you'll ignore it anyway:

Here's something lost on a lot of nukes. You're a non-commissioned officer in the United States Navy. You're supposed to be a leader. That means you may have to work long hours and you take accountability for your men's failures. It's YOUR responsibility to instill proper work ethic in students who haven't ever worked hard for anything in their lives before. That's the price of having 2 stripes and the honor of being on instructor duty with no fleet experience. You'll be ahead of the game when you can proactively determine who your problem guys will be and bring this to your LCPO's attention early and recommend a plan of action instead of reactively do what your LCPO tells you to do when a guy is way behind.

[ChiefRocscooter]

You have a stupid answer for everything, don't you?

-Nuclear-Unclass refers to Naval Nuclear Propulsion. Manning is a different set of worms. I've been to manning briefs, one given by the VCNO. Seen all sorts of [unclassified] slides about retention, quality of assessions, etc. And based on what I've seen and what you're saying, you're talking out of your ass. But I will be happy to go read whatever it is you're reading that says otherwise. I'll even go hunt for it on SIPR, because I'm genuinely curious. After all, the VCNO told us less than 6 months ago that changes to the retirement are in the works but they won't affect current AD personnel, so he's not infallable.

-I suspect staff stays late because they are either directly ordered to or are threatened with punitive action if students fall behind -- things that didn't happen when I was there. You also missed the point about group study. The 'accomodating' staff you refer to could not be bothered with doing their jobs to assist students at a time where the command was severely behind. The command climate you work in now is a result of that attitude. The staff's arm is being twisted to help students because it has proven that it won't if left to its own discretion. Would you continue to work 10+ hour days if your LCPO wasn't up your ass about your students? My guess is no, considering you feel strong enough about your students' lack of work ethic to post a rant on the internet.

And this line:
 at least shows the attitude toward lack of personal accountability still resides with the staff there. Are you telling me that you have to like a student to do your job?

-Of course I've been out of prototype for a while, you asked for someone with fleet experience to give you his opinion. My opinion is that you don't know what you're talking about and you are using anecdotal evidence to draw conclusions about what is good for the Navy. Trust the system, work at sea for a few years, and then you can tell us if you still think that prototype is producing sailors capable of functioning in the fleet.

I will leave you with this little bit of advice, although I suspect you'll ignore it anyway:

Here's something lost on a lot of nukes. You're a non-commissioned officer in the United States Navy. You're supposed to be a leader. That means you may have to work long hours and you take accountability for your men's failures. It's YOUR responsibility to instill proper work ethic in students who haven't ever worked hard for anything in their lives before. That's the price of having 2 stripes and the honor of being on instructor duty with no fleet experience. You'll be ahead of the game when you can proactively determine who your problem guys will be and bring this to your LCPO's attention early and recommend a plan of action instead of reactively do what your LCPO tells you to do when a guy is way behind.

When you ask for criticism around here you get it, and then some!  What you may not realize it that you just got told twice (more if you read them all carefully) you have no idea what the "real" world is like!  Yes it is a bitter pill to swallow but the sooner you do the sooner you can get on to learning what it means to be a leader.  Heck your a Navy Nuke and I can tell you for a fact that you have no idea what the "Navy" is all about,  most Nuke do their 6-10 years and never really find out anything about the Navy that is not NUKE world related.

Look at it this way you are just like a teacher aide in high school, yea you got an A in AP whatever and now your helping the Freshman and sophomore.  That does not mean you are ready to rewrite the lesson plans and tests!  I'll say it again;  Do your best to help your sailors and you will be able to hold your head high and be proud of what you did.

[SpaceJustice]

Look at it this way you are just like a teacher aide in high school, yea you got an A in AP whatever and now your helping the Freshman and sophomore.  That does not mean you are ready to rewrite the lesson plans and tests!  I'll say it again;  Do your best to help your sailors and you will be able to hold your head high and be proud of what you did.

Great analogy.

I was at MARF as an enlisted student during the administrative recovery from the CWI fiasco (i.e. everyone was disqualified pending corrective actions).  There were some great SPUs out there who helped keep me motivated and taught me a lot.  I met a couple of them back out in the fleet, which was interesting considering I was the one now signing their qual cards.  I wanted to make it a point to call out the people doing it right, because there were a significant number of them doing it wrong.  Prototype has a large number of disgruntled individuals both SPU and Sea returnee alike, probably because prototype is not the "dream" shore billet for a lot of people.  I will be the first to admit that I was not the best student at prototype (I fixed that in the fleet), but you can only ask the staff who aren't busy for a checkout only to be told to F off so many times before it starts affecting you.  Sure you need thick skin in this job, but as a student having authority figures behave that way is very disheartening.  Hopefully the environment has improved.  I agree that it is ridiculous to not be able to shut doors, that is excessive.  But something happened to make the students uncomfortable approaching the staff at some point, I doubt the policy was adopted based on an isolated complaint.  Looking at this objectively, we got some people who struggled in the pipeline on my boat in my division.  Some excelled and some we had to get rid of, lack of success in the pipeline doesn't always equate to failure in the fleet.

[Chimera]

Two more cents worth:

I'm reasonably convinced that the real purpose of prototype is to teach the new nukes how to take the schooling they had before they arrived at prototype and use it to learn how to properly qualify on their watch stations once they arrive in the fleet.  Yeah, I was a "hot runner" RO candidate at prototype but my general attitude didn't turn around until I arrived in the fleet.  I had to learn how to apply the "skills" I was taught at prototype to the real function of becoming a qualified watch stander in the fleet.  I learned more - both theory and operations - once I became a watch stander than I did along the way in nuke school and prototype.  The main reason I learned was because of the mentoring of my senior watch standers and my LPOs.  Lets face it - your students won't see much of the same equipment once they get into the fleet.  The real skill set you should be enculcating into their pliable skulls full of mush is how to apply what they are learning to their watch standing.  That's what will help them the most once they get to the fleet.  I knew too many sailors that had all the theoretical knowledge but weren't sure which way to turn the wrench.

[nspunx4]

Why does the navy use trainers who have no practical experience on a sub/ship? Why not use sailors with actual operating experience? I'm not trying to be a smart @ss as I am sure there is a reason.

[spekkio]

I'm reasonably convinced that the real purpose of prototype is to teach the new nukes how to take the schooling they had before they arrived at prototype and use it to learn how to properly qualify on their watch stations once they arrive in the fleet

They were conceived to be dual purpose -- test out new technology in an age before modern computers could model plant conditions accurately enough, and conveniently also train new operators on a real plant.

Personally, I think they've outlived their usefulness as both and it's a really expensive way to teach sailors the mechanics of Navy qualifications. But it was aptly said earlier -- you can't fix NNP, it ain't broke.

[ridgerunner61]

To SPUPOWER

I was also a SPU at Idaho class 8205. I was lead to believe that I was in the top 1% of the Top 1% of the Navy. Sounds great until you discover that you are the top 1% of the top 1% of the US population that couldn't find a job after high school.

Remember that you volunteered for this do you best at the end of the day you have to live with yourself.

[Chimera]

They were conceived to be dual purpose -- test out new technology in an age before modern computers could model plant conditions accurately enough, and conveniently also train new operators on a real plant.

Personally, I think they've outlived their usefulness as both and it's a really expensive way to teach sailors the mechanics of Navy qualifications. But it was aptly said earlier -- you can't fix NNP, it ain't broke.

I was looking at the training issues as they relate to the baby nukes going through the program.  However, as an alumnus of both 5G and 7G, I agree completely with your comment about being test beds for new equipment and ideas.

[GLW]

....I was also a SPU at Idaho class 8205. I was lead to believe that I was in the top 1% of the Top 1% of the Navy.......

[spupower]

You have a stupid answer for everything, don't you?

I can if you want me to

-Nuclear-Unclass refers to Naval Nuclear Propulsion. Manning is a different set of worms. I've been to manning briefs, one given by the VCNO. Seen all sorts of [unclassified] slides about retention, quality of assessions, etc. And based on what I've seen and what you're saying, you're talking out of your ass. But I will be happy to go read whatever it is you're reading that says otherwise. I'll even go hunt for it on SIPR, because I'm genuinely curious. After all, the VCNO told us less than 6 months ago that changes to the retirement are in the works but they won't affect current AD personnel, so he's not infallable.

Hmmm the VCNO didn't post those retention numbers on this forum though.


-I suspect staff stays late because they are either directly ordered to or are threatened with punitive action if students fall behind -- things that didn't happen when I was there. You also missed the point about group study. The 'accomodating' staff you refer to could not be bothered with doing their jobs to assist students at a time where the command was severely behind. The command climate you work in now is a result of that attitude. The staff's arm is being twisted to help students because it has proven that it won't if left to its own discretion. Would you continue to work 10+ hour days if your LCPO wasn't up your ass about your students? My guess is no, considering you feel strong enough about your students' lack of work ethic to post a rant on the internet.

No one orders us to stay late. No one threatens us to stay late. There is no negative repercussions for not staying late. My LCPO is not up my ass about my students, neither is the Training Manager, whom I personally talk to on a weekly basis. Because he knows that my division and I are doing our job. The staff who stay late on a regular basis do so to manage to get all our work done in a day, and it is not a time management issue, it is almost entirely a workload issue.

And this line:
 at least shows the attitude toward lack of personal accountability still resides with the staff there. Are you telling me that you have to like a student to do your job?

You continue to attack the staff I work with, when you don't know any of them. I am telling you that when a student is showing effort and a willingness/aptitude to learn we will go out of our way to help them. If a student tries to tell me they were wronged in some way when they fail a test/board/watch, or they are smug or cocky or bitter, they can keep that to themselves, and I will not go out of my way for them. We will not brush students off for no reason though.

-Of course I've been out of prototype for a while, you asked for someone with fleet experience to give you his opinion. My opinion is that you don't know what you're talking about and you are using anecdotal evidence to draw conclusions about what is good for the Navy. Trust the system, work at sea for a few years, and then you can tell us if you still think that prototype is producing sailors capable of functioning in the fleet.

I have no idea how the fleet works, I told them in my staff interview that I feel like training students without sea experience is ineffective for both me and the students and I was still picked up

I will leave you with this little bit of advice, although I suspect you'll ignore it anyway:

Here's something lost on a lot of nukes. You're a non-commissioned officer in the United States Navy. You're supposed to be a leader. That means you may have to work long hours and you take accountability for your men's failures. It's YOUR responsibility to instill proper work ethic in students who haven't ever worked hard for anything in their lives before. That's the price of having 2 stripes and the honor of being on instructor duty with no fleet experience. You'll be ahead of the game when you can proactively determine who your problem guys will be and bring this to your LCPO's attention early and recommend a plan of action instead of reactively do what your LCPO tells you to do when a guy is way behind.

Nukes are not given rank because of qualities they posess, they are given rank in attempt to keep them in the program, because the bonus pools are only so big. While you may have to be above average to get picked up staff, I still dont feel it is an "honor", especially when it is forced on you. I am a second class who stands in for LPO of my division as needed, and manages training for the division, I am doing a job of a first class and I stand in for a job only sea returnee first classes do and my chief has confidence in my ability to do it. I mentor and develop my junior staff pickups and I help the sea returnees adjust when they show up. I figure out my student's problems and I make them confront them as much as I can in the short time I have. My LCPO provides backup like any good nuke but he is not intrusively guiding our division. Your statement is condescending and that makes it tough to take it as advice, more of a veiled and misguided insult.

I will leave you with this: If your time at prototype was the way you described, you should read above about avoiding students with a poor attitude. I would love constructive advice about how it is in the real navy but your continued jabs at me and my command are arrogant and plain wrong; you cant possibly begin to judge staff here after just qualifying as a student and getting thrown to a boat.

[spekkio]

According to your last post, everything is right with the world and working as it should. So what's the problem? Did you just come here to use this forum as your blog to complain about a rough day at work?

My advice was condescending because you, like many junior nukes, actually believe the following:

"Nukes are not given rank because of qualities they posess, they are given rank in attempt to keep them in the program, because the bonus pools are only so big. While you may have to be above average to get picked up staff, I still dont feel it is an "honor", especially when it is forced on you."

It is infuriating to me that a person in a position of leadership, such as yourself, can actually write that. Your uniform is not just representative of a paycheck, your rate is not 'given' to you, and no one 'forced' you to be a nuke. There are lots of Sailors in the fleet who worked their asses off to make E-5 and you casually dismiss it as a gift that you're entitled to in order to keep YOU in the Navy.

[GLW]

.................. There are lots of Sailors in the fleet who worked their asses off to make E-5 and you casually dismiss it as a gift that you're entitled to in order to keep YOU in the Navy.

AMEN and HALLELUJAH!!!!!

this former tin can sailor salutes that sentiment,....

on a personal perspective;

when I was eventually accepted into the NNPP from the conventional fleet I was bumped to E-4 after signing my 6YO contract,....

all through NPS I understood I was to comport myself as a PO3,...

the bozos who got masted for tossing the board erasers around and goofin' during study hours were miffed they were being busted for just blowing off some steam,...

I was surprised they were still in the program,...

peace,...GLW,...former MM1/SS-ELT,...(& gopher to the waterking),...

[spupower]

According to your last post, everything is right with the world and working as it should. So what's the problem? Did you just come here to use this forum as your blog to complain about a rough day at work?

My advice was condescending because you, like many junior nukes, actually believe the following:

"Nukes are not given rank because of qualities they posess, they are given rank in attempt to keep them in the program, because the bonus pools are only so big. While you may have to be above average to get picked up staff, I still dont feel it is an "honor", especially when it is forced on you."


It is infuriating to me that a person in a position of leadership, such as yourself, can actually write that. Your uniform is not just representative of a paycheck, your rate is not 'given' to you, and no one 'forced' you to be a nuke. There are lots of Sailors in the fleet who worked their asses off to make E-5 and you casually dismiss it as a gift that you're entitled to in order to keep YOU in the Navy.

It IS a fact, nukes do not rank up like conventionals. I am close to taking the E6 test, my recruiter was a first class when he recruited me, he is still a first class. He had to earn his rank and acts it, nukes earn rank because they are nukes. I earned my NEC, and I would argue to be a useful part of an engineering department you are operating at least at the level an E5 should be. That being said if you are a lazy ass you will still make first faster than the hardest trying conventional, regardless of if they actually deserve it. I find it surprising you would think I am wrong on that point.

[Marlin]

It IS a fact, nukes do not rank up like conventionals. I am close to taking the E6 test, my recruiter was a first class when he recruited me, he is still a first class. He had to earn his rank and acts it, nukes earn rank because they are nukes. I earned my NEC, and I would argue to be a useful part of an engineering department you are operating at least at the level an E5 should be. That being said if you are a lazy ass you will still make first faster than the hardest trying conventional, regardless of if they actually deserve it. I find it surprising you would think I am wrong on that point.

On a thread you titled "Looking for some criticism" you seem to have a very thin skin and are typing more than listening.

[GLW]

On a thread you titled "Looking for some criticism" you seem to have a very thin skin and are typing more than listening.

The original post was canvassing the forum for commiseration with the plight of the NNPP,...

not an invitation to critique the OP's assessment of that perceived plight,...

the OP stated this:

..........I have tried m best to shield my division from this but I can only do so much and I am worried when I leave the outside forces will crush my junior SPUs and they will just start passing everyone. I don't think we operate to Rickover's standards anymore and I think if he saw how we train he would shut us down.....

the NNPP has existed for six going into seven decades now, it has likely been around as long if not longer than the OP's grandparents,....

it takes a lot of hubris to conceive the notion that a program which has successfully done it's job for six plus decades may very well realize an epic fail after you leave prototype for the fleet,...

as stated earlier, it is good to see the "best of the best of the best" brainwash is still effective,...

as stated earlier, similar sentiments were hashed out on these very forums a decade before the OP was enlisted in the USN,...

as stated earlier, the OP "needs a girl mate",...

as stated earlier, the NNPP is doing what Big Navy needs it to do and those needs vary over the decades,...

as stated earlier, the OP has done well and should probably just do the best job he can, enjoy the fun of each new day and live happy as a padawan should, the path of Anakin Skywalker is an unhappy path,...

as stated before, "You can't fix the Navy, the Navy ain't broke",...

as not stated before, we've all seen the OP's meme before, sometimes it spreads ala USS Hartford, Memphis, et al, sometimes it fizzles, sometimes it sad pandas,...

either way and anyway, it's becoming a rarer commodity to see an OP come to these boards and type "thanks for the insight guys!, perhaps I'll look inwards and seek the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference",...

I blame the modern school system,..............and video games,....

[GLW]

we've all seen the OP's meme before,....

OBTW, I remembered to include a look up word for Higgs today,....

[GLW]

....either way and anyway, it's becoming a rarer commodity to see an OP come to these boards and type "thanks for the insight guys!, perhaps I'll look inwards and seek the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference",...

and yes, that sentiment includes changing the curmudgeons on these boards who may not be full of pats and hugs but who are typically right, typically sage, and when heeded, typically put out insight which can be very helpful with the listener's success should the listener be open to applying that insight to their individual circumstance,...

 

[Marlin]

The original post was canvassing the forum for commiseration with the plight of the NNPP,...

not an invitation to critique the OP's assessment of that perceived plight,...

Seriously??? 

[GLW]

Seriously??? 

Well,....I read the original post and that's what I took away from it,....

the OP is sure of his assessment,...

the OP is not sure if his assessment will be a permanent death spiral or a temporary effectiveness lapse of the NNPP,...

the OP does seem pretty confident that his assessment is correct and defends that assessment regardless of opinion or assertion buy other users that his assessment is not correct,...

AISITI,...

[ChiefRocscooter]

It IS a fact, nukes do not rank up like conventionals. I am close to taking the E6 test, my recruiter was a first class when he recruited me, he is still a first class. He had to earn his rank and acts it, nukes earn rank because they are nukes. I earned my NEC, and I would argue to be a useful part of an engineering department you are operating at least at the level an E5 should be. That being said if you are a lazy ass you will still make first faster than the hardest trying conventional, regardless of if they actually deserve it. I find it surprising you would think I am wrong on that point.

Yes, Nuke's are promoted fast because the structure of the program Rank=Money might=they will stay in with bonus and higher rank pay since the "average" Nuke can get out and make much more because they are smarter than the average bear.  To argue anything about what it takes to be a useful part of an engineering department without having been there seems a little unwise.  I have had FN and PO3's who were as vital to my division success as anyone else, never convince yourself that rank means more important or better/smarter worker (thoughts like that will get you a commission!).  Rank is supposed to be about responsibility not usability!

Careful talking about conventional unless you know what you are talking about.... There was a time just a few years ago when GS (gas turbine techs) were making rate as fast as Nukes.  Po3 out of A school with automatic E5 (pass test) out of C school for 6 year option enlistees.  It is all about the "needs of the Navy" my friend.  They need Nukes so they are willing to pay a little more to maybe get some to stay.  Ever take a look at the bonus structure for the spec war guys?  I know a 20 year E6 who got almost $200k to reup for 4 more (hell ever see a 20yr Nuke E6 allowed to reenlist?)

I will give you my take on the "best of the best of the best" thing.  The Navy nuke program happens to be one of the best programs in the world for taking under achievers, overly smart misfits, and those who lack better opportunity and turning them into functioning capable learning machines who for the most part become working successful members of society!  My class was made up quite a mix from high school grad to a West Point dropout to the Nuclear Eng. with a piss poor GPA who was trying to get picked up for a commission by completing Nuc Pwr school.  I saw plenty of really smart guys fail out along the way, some smarter than those who stayed, because the pace and style was not for everyone.  The pressure of the program can turn lumps of coal into "diamonds" (see the commissioning stats) but sometimes the coal just crumbles or just stays coal, albeit a little more polished.        

[ridgerunner61]

to SPUPOWER

be happy with the opportunity you have been given, if you make it out to the real Navy (yes I have seen SPU's denuked {WHAMCO slaughter of "83}) you will walk onto the boat being used to having people watch you do your job. Guess what during ORSE and the work ups to it you will be watched doing samples, adds, surveys, etc. SPUs are used to it where non-SPUs have to get used to it in a hurry.

By the way try to grow a thicker skin, you wouldn't have lasted a day on my boat. Any and all weakness can and will be used against you.

[drayer54]

The worst part is that it is complaining from a SPU   (with thin skin nonetheless!)

I always thought they rushed nukes through the ranks so it wouldn't look like a recruit was shimming in... just my thoughts

[Gamecock]

The worst part is that it is complaining from a SPU  

They actually are called JSIs (junior staff instructor).  A few years back, female Staff pick-up complained about being called SPU..... and the title was officially changed.

[SpaceJustice]

That being said if you are a lazy ass you will still make first faster than the hardest trying conventional, regardless of if they actually deserve it. I find it surprising you would think I am wrong on that point.

False.  A Yeoman I went to bootcamp with was a second class by the time I got to the boat as a third class.

[spekkio]

It IS a fact, nukes do not rank up like conventionals.

Yes, you do. You take a rating exam and if you get a high enough multiple, you get promoted. The multiple is set based on how many sailors the Navy needs to promote in your rating. Multiples for nukes tend to be low because of retention, not because you're a nuke. Other rates that have poor retention numbers have similarly fast promotion timelines.

STAR reenlistments exist for other ratings, too.

A guy with a college degree can start at E-3 in virtually any rating, pass the E-4 exam with a high enough score after the minimum time in rate, which can be done as little as 3 whole months longer than a nuke A-school, and be an E-4. Then he can STAR reenlist, same as you, once the required time in service is met and the paperwork is filled out.

Also, EM (nukes) were virtually not getting promoted to E-5 unless they STAR reenlisted not very long ago. Bottom line there is stop applying what little you know in prototype to how the rest of the Navy operates. It's been your mistake since post 1.

And you were not generally wrong about nukes making E-4 faster than most other rates; you were wrong about dismissing the responsibilities of your rate as an entitlement to keep special snowflakes in the Navy. You will one day go to sea, and junior sailors will look to you as a leader and technical expert because you have two chevrons. If you act like you have those chevrons simply because you come from a superior stock of intelligence that allowed you to score high on the ASVAB and not because you have any responsibility in taking any initiative to lead sailors and run the operations of ship, you'll feed the 'f@$%&n nukes' fire.

Modified for language

[MGH]

I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about the ups and downs in a program that was there before you were birthed...it'll still be there when you are gone. We worried about the same stuff when the old man was alive.

[Fermi2]

If you missed my point, neither of those are reactors that allowed to travel the entire world freely with their own regulatory agency; one isn't even a reactor facility. Rickover built this program so well that he was called before congress to tell them the reason his program had operated so long without incident. The navy has never stopped building reactors and no one questions our safety, NR is also requested by other organizations for technical expertise on nuclear power to perform audits or give advice. That doesn't mean civilian plants are bad, regulations are still very strict and level of knowledge is still high, I have heard from friends that SRO is one of the most challenging things they have had to do as a qual. I'm not even sure why I am arguing this point anymore, NR=0 accidents.

SOMEWHERE over the rainbow... I guess the LOCA and SGTR at A! weren't "accidents"

[ChiefRocscooter]

SOMEWHERE over the rainbow... I guess the LOCA and SGTR at A! weren't "accidents"

The reason there were "no accidents" is it was all super secret stuff for 40 years!  Hell SL1 anyone??  Was that on the 5'oclock news back in the day??  The Navy based its infallible program on the fact that the officer were mistake free and the equipment never failed!  Now those dang enlisted guys.. they were always the problem!  Once saw an incident report where the blown fuse that caused a problem was blamed on the failure of the technician (enlisted guy) to notice the degraded condition of the fuse during the inspection a few weeks earlier, did I mention the fuse was on of those solid case type you can not see into, not sure what degraded condition they wanted seen?  Anyway the point is the system was perfect because it was run by the "perfect" who managed the "flawless", in fact it was so good I wonder why we even needed NR to come to the boats?

[DLGN25]

The reason there were "no accidents" is it was all super secret stuff for 40 years!  Hell SL1 anyone??  Was that on the 5'oclock news back in the day??  The Navy based its infallible program on the fact that the officer were mistake free and the equipment never failed!  Now those dang enlisted guys.. they were always the problem!  Once saw an incident report where the blown fuse that caused a problem was blamed on the failure of the technician (enlisted guy) to notice the degraded condition of the fuse during the inspection a few weeks earlier, did I mention the fuse was on of those solid case type you can not see into, not sure what degraded condition they wanted seen?  Anyway the point is the system was perfect because it was run by the "perfect" who managed the "flawless", in fact it was so good I wonder why we even needed NR to come to the boats?

I wonder what you did to bring down this wrath on the program.  Officers?  Well they were/are the managers.  When I was in the program, 66-70, I qualified on D1G prototype and D2G on Bainbridge as an RO.  Officers never questioned what we did of did not do because we knew what was expected.  On maintenance, the same.  On maintenance, officers had no clue other then if the paper was properly processed. That was their job,

I lived through incident reports with that would make a Chief Engineer toss in the towel,if not his cookies.  Chlorine compounds meant to be used in the drinking water going into primary coolant, duel plant scrams and fill initiation because of log file delivery, and it goes on.  You name it, we, or others came close to doing it.

I lived through those moments and never was there an enlisted or an officer put to blame.  Shit just happens, as it did then and we adjusted.  Perhaps the difference then was we were on the frontier and were writing the rules.

Think not?  The USS Thresher went down and all lost because of main steam cutoff valves that engaged when the plant scrammed.  Bainbridge and all nukes at the time had the same auto steam shut off functions which were disabled after Thresher.

We learn from mistakes, and yes, there are a** holes in the enlisted and officer corps.  If the fuse story is as you related true, it is sad.  Somewhere in that organization it was all about covering leadership incompetence and Chiefs, LPO's and Officers not stepping forward to clear the decks.

What I learned in the nuclear navy and later in the conventional navy, is that a strong, a driven, a correctly motivated LPO, can bring officers and chiefs down, or at least bring them in line with reality.  Well at least that was my experience when an E6 carried a whole lot of weight with command if he/she knew how and when to exercise the power of their position.  The most difficult part was figuring out how to send the chiefs to the goat locker so you could get on with the business of the ship.

From my experience, all you had to do to gain respect and 'power' is to do your job well and express your concerns verbally and in writing in a way to advance the mission.

[ChiefRocscooter]

"Perhaps the difference then was we were on the frontier and were writing the rules."

You answer your own question.  We came from different era's you were 20 years ahead of me, during the if not infancy at least early childhood.  I came from the era where growth was dramatic and there were far and away more nukes.  There were likely more nukes on the 5 Nimitz class carriers of my day then the entire Navy had during your era.  Add to that the 100 plus boats of the late 80's and you can see we were in the big glory days.  Today's nukes are an era 25 years after my own (and brace for it) and nearly 50 after yours!! and they face the creep of shrink every year.

Like Ruth to Arron to Bonds things change and no era can be compared to another fairly.  I simply was relating that at one time (and so it seems to be today as well) the pressure to excel was so great (not excelling meant no COMMAND tour for you) that it became about political correctness and towing the "company" line.  The bigger the organization the brighter you must shine to standout.  Much of what you say about doing your job and as an LPO has gone away over the years.  In my day many "LPOs" were "LPOs" because they were simply the senior guy.  After all most everyone was an E-5 (we had maybe 4-5 E-4 nukes on my boat) and almost every MM was an E-6 because if you spelled you name correctly(well you had to try to fail) you made MM1(SS) on your 1st exam. (yes the multiple was the min). Hit the fast forward button to today where there is no longer even an initiation for Chiefs and you can see how leadership has changed over the years.

As for my "wrath" that you speak of.. No I was just trying to explain the "structure" I saw in my days I have no animus for the program, in fact for better or worse it made me who I am today (ok mostly for the better).  However I was around long enough to see behind the curtain... OZ was never all that great and powerful but he put on a great show!  The Navy Nuclear Power Program did many an extraordinary thing but she also swept many things under the rug when it suited her.

As for the current plight of the program well just like 20 years after you and 25 years after me...20 years from now it will most likely still be there, question is will which way it will be going then?   

[GLW]

........... question is will which way it will be going then?   

it'll be going the way Big Navy needs it to go to keep warships at sea,...