Looking for some criticism

[GLW]

Seriously??? 

Well,....I read the original post and that's what I took away from it,....

the OP is sure of his assessment,...

the OP is not sure if his assessment will be a permanent death spiral or a temporary effectiveness lapse of the NNPP,...

the OP does seem pretty confident that his assessment is correct and defends that assessment regardless of opinion or assertion buy other users that his assessment is not correct,...

AISITI,...

[ChiefRocscooter]

It IS a fact, nukes do not rank up like conventionals. I am close to taking the E6 test, my recruiter was a first class when he recruited me, he is still a first class. He had to earn his rank and acts it, nukes earn rank because they are nukes. I earned my NEC, and I would argue to be a useful part of an engineering department you are operating at least at the level an E5 should be. That being said if you are a lazy ass you will still make first faster than the hardest trying conventional, regardless of if they actually deserve it. I find it surprising you would think I am wrong on that point.

Yes, Nuke's are promoted fast because the structure of the program Rank=Money might=they will stay in with bonus and higher rank pay since the "average" Nuke can get out and make much more because they are smarter than the average bear.  To argue anything about what it takes to be a useful part of an engineering department without having been there seems a little unwise.  I have had FN and PO3's who were as vital to my division success as anyone else, never convince yourself that rank means more important or better/smarter worker (thoughts like that will get you a commission!).  Rank is supposed to be about responsibility not usability!

Careful talking about conventional unless you know what you are talking about.... There was a time just a few years ago when GS (gas turbine techs) were making rate as fast as Nukes.  Po3 out of A school with automatic E5 (pass test) out of C school for 6 year option enlistees.  It is all about the "needs of the Navy" my friend.  They need Nukes so they are willing to pay a little more to maybe get some to stay.  Ever take a look at the bonus structure for the spec war guys?  I know a 20 year E6 who got almost $200k to reup for 4 more (hell ever see a 20yr Nuke E6 allowed to reenlist?)

I will give you my take on the "best of the best of the best" thing.  The Navy nuke program happens to be one of the best programs in the world for taking under achievers, overly smart misfits, and those who lack better opportunity and turning them into functioning capable learning machines who for the most part become working successful members of society!  My class was made up quite a mix from high school grad to a West Point dropout to the Nuclear Eng. with a piss poor GPA who was trying to get picked up for a commission by completing Nuc Pwr school.  I saw plenty of really smart guys fail out along the way, some smarter than those who stayed, because the pace and style was not for everyone.  The pressure of the program can turn lumps of coal into "diamonds" (see the commissioning stats) but sometimes the coal just crumbles or just stays coal, albeit a little more polished.        

[ridgerunner61]

to SPUPOWER

be happy with the opportunity you have been given, if you make it out to the real Navy (yes I have seen SPU's denuked {WHAMCO slaughter of "83}) you will walk onto the boat being used to having people watch you do your job. Guess what during ORSE and the work ups to it you will be watched doing samples, adds, surveys, etc. SPUs are used to it where non-SPUs have to get used to it in a hurry.

By the way try to grow a thicker skin, you wouldn't have lasted a day on my boat. Any and all weakness can and will be used against you.

[drayer54]

The worst part is that it is complaining from a SPU   (with thin skin nonetheless!)

I always thought they rushed nukes through the ranks so it wouldn't look like a recruit was shimming in... just my thoughts

[Gamecock]

The worst part is that it is complaining from a SPU  

They actually are called JSIs (junior staff instructor).  A few years back, female Staff pick-up complained about being called SPU..... and the title was officially changed.

[SpaceJustice]

That being said if you are a lazy ass you will still make first faster than the hardest trying conventional, regardless of if they actually deserve it. I find it surprising you would think I am wrong on that point.

False.  A Yeoman I went to bootcamp with was a second class by the time I got to the boat as a third class.

[spekkio]

It IS a fact, nukes do not rank up like conventionals.

Yes, you do. You take a rating exam and if you get a high enough multiple, you get promoted. The multiple is set based on how many sailors the Navy needs to promote in your rating. Multiples for nukes tend to be low because of retention, not because you're a nuke. Other rates that have poor retention numbers have similarly fast promotion timelines.

STAR reenlistments exist for other ratings, too.

A guy with a college degree can start at E-3 in virtually any rating, pass the E-4 exam with a high enough score after the minimum time in rate, which can be done as little as 3 whole months longer than a nuke A-school, and be an E-4. Then he can STAR reenlist, same as you, once the required time in service is met and the paperwork is filled out.

Also, EM (nukes) were virtually not getting promoted to E-5 unless they STAR reenlisted not very long ago. Bottom line there is stop applying what little you know in prototype to how the rest of the Navy operates. It's been your mistake since post 1.

And you were not generally wrong about nukes making E-4 faster than most other rates; you were wrong about dismissing the responsibilities of your rate as an entitlement to keep special snowflakes in the Navy. You will one day go to sea, and junior sailors will look to you as a leader and technical expert because you have two chevrons. If you act like you have those chevrons simply because you come from a superior stock of intelligence that allowed you to score high on the ASVAB and not because you have any responsibility in taking any initiative to lead sailors and run the operations of ship, you'll feed the 'f@$%&n nukes' fire.

Modified for language

[MGH]

I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about the ups and downs in a program that was there before you were birthed...it'll still be there when you are gone. We worried about the same stuff when the old man was alive.

[Fermi2]

If you missed my point, neither of those are reactors that allowed to travel the entire world freely with their own regulatory agency; one isn't even a reactor facility. Rickover built this program so well that he was called before congress to tell them the reason his program had operated so long without incident. The navy has never stopped building reactors and no one questions our safety, NR is also requested by other organizations for technical expertise on nuclear power to perform audits or give advice. That doesn't mean civilian plants are bad, regulations are still very strict and level of knowledge is still high, I have heard from friends that SRO is one of the most challenging things they have had to do as a qual. I'm not even sure why I am arguing this point anymore, NR=0 accidents.

SOMEWHERE over the rainbow... I guess the LOCA and SGTR at A! weren't "accidents"

[ChiefRocscooter]

SOMEWHERE over the rainbow... I guess the LOCA and SGTR at A! weren't "accidents"

The reason there were "no accidents" is it was all super secret stuff for 40 years!  Hell SL1 anyone??  Was that on the 5'oclock news back in the day??  The Navy based its infallible program on the fact that the officer were mistake free and the equipment never failed!  Now those dang enlisted guys.. they were always the problem!  Once saw an incident report where the blown fuse that caused a problem was blamed on the failure of the technician (enlisted guy) to notice the degraded condition of the fuse during the inspection a few weeks earlier, did I mention the fuse was on of those solid case type you can not see into, not sure what degraded condition they wanted seen?  Anyway the point is the system was perfect because it was run by the "perfect" who managed the "flawless", in fact it was so good I wonder why we even needed NR to come to the boats?

[DLGN25]

The reason there were "no accidents" is it was all super secret stuff for 40 years!  Hell SL1 anyone??  Was that on the 5'oclock news back in the day??  The Navy based its infallible program on the fact that the officer were mistake free and the equipment never failed!  Now those dang enlisted guys.. they were always the problem!  Once saw an incident report where the blown fuse that caused a problem was blamed on the failure of the technician (enlisted guy) to notice the degraded condition of the fuse during the inspection a few weeks earlier, did I mention the fuse was on of those solid case type you can not see into, not sure what degraded condition they wanted seen?  Anyway the point is the system was perfect because it was run by the "perfect" who managed the "flawless", in fact it was so good I wonder why we even needed NR to come to the boats?

I wonder what you did to bring down this wrath on the program.  Officers?  Well they were/are the managers.  When I was in the program, 66-70, I qualified on D1G prototype and D2G on Bainbridge as an RO.  Officers never questioned what we did of did not do because we knew what was expected.  On maintenance, the same.  On maintenance, officers had no clue other then if the paper was properly processed. That was their job,

I lived through incident reports with that would make a Chief Engineer toss in the towel,if not his cookies.  Chlorine compounds meant to be used in the drinking water going into primary coolant, duel plant scrams and fill initiation because of log file delivery, and it goes on.  You name it, we, or others came close to doing it.

I lived through those moments and never was there an enlisted or an officer put to blame.  Shit just happens, as it did then and we adjusted.  Perhaps the difference then was we were on the frontier and were writing the rules.

Think not?  The USS Thresher went down and all lost because of main steam cutoff valves that engaged when the plant scrammed.  Bainbridge and all nukes at the time had the same auto steam shut off functions which were disabled after Thresher.

We learn from mistakes, and yes, there are a** holes in the enlisted and officer corps.  If the fuse story is as you related true, it is sad.  Somewhere in that organization it was all about covering leadership incompetence and Chiefs, LPO's and Officers not stepping forward to clear the decks.

What I learned in the nuclear navy and later in the conventional navy, is that a strong, a driven, a correctly motivated LPO, can bring officers and chiefs down, or at least bring them in line with reality.  Well at least that was my experience when an E6 carried a whole lot of weight with command if he/she knew how and when to exercise the power of their position.  The most difficult part was figuring out how to send the chiefs to the goat locker so you could get on with the business of the ship.

From my experience, all you had to do to gain respect and 'power' is to do your job well and express your concerns verbally and in writing in a way to advance the mission.

[ChiefRocscooter]

"Perhaps the difference then was we were on the frontier and were writing the rules."

You answer your own question.  We came from different era's you were 20 years ahead of me, during the if not infancy at least early childhood.  I came from the era where growth was dramatic and there were far and away more nukes.  There were likely more nukes on the 5 Nimitz class carriers of my day then the entire Navy had during your era.  Add to that the 100 plus boats of the late 80's and you can see we were in the big glory days.  Today's nukes are an era 25 years after my own (and brace for it) and nearly 50 after yours!! and they face the creep of shrink every year.

Like Ruth to Arron to Bonds things change and no era can be compared to another fairly.  I simply was relating that at one time (and so it seems to be today as well) the pressure to excel was so great (not excelling meant no COMMAND tour for you) that it became about political correctness and towing the "company" line.  The bigger the organization the brighter you must shine to standout.  Much of what you say about doing your job and as an LPO has gone away over the years.  In my day many "LPOs" were "LPOs" because they were simply the senior guy.  After all most everyone was an E-5 (we had maybe 4-5 E-4 nukes on my boat) and almost every MM was an E-6 because if you spelled you name correctly(well you had to try to fail) you made MM1(SS) on your 1st exam. (yes the multiple was the min). Hit the fast forward button to today where there is no longer even an initiation for Chiefs and you can see how leadership has changed over the years.

As for my "wrath" that you speak of.. No I was just trying to explain the "structure" I saw in my days I have no animus for the program, in fact for better or worse it made me who I am today (ok mostly for the better).  However I was around long enough to see behind the curtain... OZ was never all that great and powerful but he put on a great show!  The Navy Nuclear Power Program did many an extraordinary thing but she also swept many things under the rug when it suited her.

As for the current plight of the program well just like 20 years after you and 25 years after me...20 years from now it will most likely still be there, question is will which way it will be going then?   

[GLW]

........... question is will which way it will be going then?   

it'll be going the way Big Navy needs it to go to keep warships at sea,...