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Offline Irish

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Nuke MM Volunteer
« on: Nov 17, 2014, 12:35 »
Hello Everyone! I am wondering why volunteering for MM in the Nuke field is always accepted. Why is that? Is it a bad reason such as being a MM Nuke a thing regretted by sailors once they've become one, or is it a good reason, such as it is hard to fill, and the sailors that volunteer find themselves rewarded? Please let me know, I know someone seriously considering Navy Nuke.
My second question is; can a sub qualified Nuke MM ever transfer to the surface fleet and vice a versa? Please respond, Thanks.

HeavyD

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #1 on: Nov 17, 2014, 01:53 »
The primary factor is the number of MM billets in the fleet.  There are more MM billets than there are EM or ET billets.

As far as regret goes, I'm pretty sure we all had some regret about the program at once point and time.  Some of us simply overcame them, for some that was a primary reason they got out.

During my 20 years in the Navy, I met a Chief who made the transfer from subs to surface instead of transferring to shore duty.  Not sure if there was more to that story (hint, there almost always is).  That was the ONLY instance where I either met firsthand or heard mention of anyone going subs to surface without there being some issue that medically disqualified a sailor from submarine duty.

I'm sure the rest of the experience guys and gals will chime in. 

Offline Marlin

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #2 on: Nov 17, 2014, 02:20 »
Is it a bad reason such as being a MM Nuke a thing regretted by sailors once they've become one, or is it a good reason, such as it is hard to fill, and the sailors that volunteer find themselves rewarded?

My MM along with ELT has been 'berry berry' good to me, but as a starting point not an end all. HeavyD seems to be on the mark for why MM is selected most often.

https://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php?topic=17788.0

Offline spekkio

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #3 on: Nov 17, 2014, 04:41 »
During my 20 years in the Navy, I met a Chief who made the transfer from subs to surface instead of transferring to shore duty.  Not sure if there was more to that story (hint, there almost always is).  That was the ONLY instance where I either met firsthand or heard mention of anyone going subs to surface without there being some issue that medically disqualified a sailor from submarine duty.
Way, way, way more down the road BUT...

If you kick ass and chew bubble gum for your career, the only way to become a Command Master Chief (CMC) is to transfer to the surface fleet. How do I know? Right after I commissioned, the CMC of the recruiting station had done just that. Served honorably as an EDMC, didn't want the COB pay cut, and got into the surface community. You can still make Master Chief as a sub guy, which is an E-9 paygrade, but you cannot get the CMC rating. Not sure if there are extra pays/bonuses associated with it.

But, short of that scenario or some medically disqualifying condition, you will be a sub MM until you either get picked up for commissioning, get picked up for warrant officer, reach the end of your obligated service, or retire. That goes for all the sub nuke ratings, not just MM.
« Last Edit: Nov 17, 2014, 04:57 by spekkio »

Offline Gamecock

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #4 on: Nov 17, 2014, 05:22 »
Way, way, way more down the road BUT...

If you kick ass and chew bubble gum for your career, the only way to become a Command Master Chief (CMC) is to transfer to the surface fleet. How do I know? Right after I commissioned, the CMC of the recruiting station had done just that. Served honorably as an EDMC, didn't want the COB pay cut, and got into the surface community. You can still make Master Chief as a sub guy, which is an E-9 paygrade, but you cannot get the CMC rating. Not sure if there are extra pays/bonuses associated with it.

But, short of that scenario or some medically disqualifying condition, you will be a sub MM until you either get picked up for commissioning, get picked up for warrant officer, reach the end of your obligated service, or retire. That goes for all the sub nuke ratings, not just MM.

What you say is not correct....

Just saw a nuke EMCM(SS) get selected to the CMC program.  He ia going to an aviation squadron for his first tour.

Cheers,

GC
“If the thought police come... we will meet them at the door, respectfully, unflinchingly, willing to die... holding a copy of the sacred Scriptures in one hand and the US Constitution in the other."

Offline spekkio

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #5 on: Nov 17, 2014, 05:35 »
In my mind I was lumping aviation with surface. It's not subs. You were supposed to know that because you can clearly read my mind.  :P

Offline Irish

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #6 on: Nov 17, 2014, 08:37 »
I thought the Navy would encourage sailors to earn as many warfare qualifications as possible. Also, wouldn't it be seen as "motivated" for a sailor to want to experience service in all areas including the sub community, surface, and air communities? If a Nuke is ever going to be Command Master Chief of the Navy, shouldn't that sailor have all thoses communities under his belt to show real life experience to lead all the Navy's enlisted?

Offline spekkio

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #7 on: Nov 17, 2014, 09:01 »
Short answer: No.

Long answer: Since we're splitting hairs in this thread, enlisted submariners don't DO a warfare qualification. Enlisted submariners become 'qualified in submarines.' There is no warfighting on that card... you won't have to memorize torpedo presets or any tactical maneuvers; it's a ship's BEQ card + damage control.

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/milpersman/1000/1200Classification/Documents/1220-040.pdf

As a Sailor, your job is to be an expert in your rating until you make the leap to EDMC/COB (or CMC for surface non-sub). The Navy wants you to seek further training and qualifications within your rate; it couldn't care less if you know how to do anything outside of that. QA quals, schools for HPAC, refrigeration, welder, etc...all good stuff. In fact, outside of qualifying EWS the best thing you can do as a first tour MM is try to become the AQAO (assistant quality assurance officer)... or at least go to school to qualify as the alternate. Going to a surface ship and completing their ESWS PQS? Worthless as far as the Navy is concerned. That's why your choice of shore duty if you are 'on track' will be prototype, power school, or A-school instructor... you need to keep working 'in rate' to be promotable. If you don't have an EWS qual, it's probably going to be prototype. If you get sent somewhere else, it's because the Navy thinks you're a terminal E-5/E-6.

The Navy also generally doesn't instill much leadership into enlisted Sailors until they make E-6 compared to the USMC and Army that expects Corporals and Specialists to be responsible for their troops, but in the sub nuke world this can often not occur until Chief since the promotion is much quicker and divisions are smaller. You can have guys getting to the boat and putting on E-6 before they earn dolphins if they did a SPU tour... a personal gripe of mine that I think the nuke community should increase pay with bonuses instead of rate so when you look at 3 chevrons you know with reasonable certainty the guy knows his stuff, but I digress...

The officers fight the ship, the Sailors run the ship.
« Last Edit: Nov 17, 2014, 11:13 by spekkio »

HeavyD

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #8 on: Nov 18, 2014, 11:56 »
I thought the Navy would encourage sailors to earn as many warfare qualifications as possible. Also, wouldn't it be seen as "motivated" for a sailor to want to experience service in all areas including the sub community, surface, and air communities? If a Nuke is ever going to be Command Master Chief of the Navy, shouldn't that sailor have all thoses communities under his belt to show real life experience to lead all the Navy's enlisted?


The Navy needs sailors to do their appointed job.  Warfare qualifications are in no way indicative of you performing your job, i. e. your rating.

When I got to the ENTERPRISE in 1993, surface qualifications were voluntary.  I saw plenty of guys who got qualified ESWS before their senior-in-rate nuke quals because it was easier.  Most of them developed into $hitbag$, or continued developing into bigger $hitbag$.  The point being that they sucked at the job they were getting paid to do, i.e. be a Nuke, because they tried to be "well rounded" first.

The MCPON absolutely does not need to be qualified in all the primary warfare specialties to be the MCPON.  His/her job is to be the voice for the enlisted community to the Chief of Naval Operations, taking input from their various CMCs and COBs in all the communities.  This input helps develop the path forward for helping sailors develop and advance, therefore being better at their jobs.

Lack of previous experience in a community isn't necessary to provide leadership.  As an ELT I could have gone from being the RLLCPO to being the RELCPO and succeeded.  My base knowledge level of electrical systems wouldn't be why I would be sent there; my ability to manage the division, along with the DIVO, and the programs within the division successfully is what matters.  To coordinate the division's interaction with the other divisions in Reactor Department as well as the rest of the ship.  Taking care of all that "Navy" stuff that exists (to most nukes at least) completely outside of their job.  For the subject matter expert part of it, I would rely on the First Classes and senior Second Classes.  Those Chiefs didn't become SMEs after they put their anchors on, they got to that level of knowledge long before that.

Offline GLW

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #9 on: Nov 18, 2014, 12:01 »
I thought the Navy,..............


amongst the most infamous of all suppositions,...


been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline DDMurray

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #10 on: Nov 18, 2014, 12:26 »
I thought the Navy would encourage sailors to earn as many warfare qualifications as possible. Also, wouldn't it be seen as "motivated" for a sailor to want to experience service in all areas including the sub community, surface, and air communities? If a Nuke is ever going to be Command Master Chief of the Navy, shouldn't that sailor have all thoses communities under his belt to show real life experience to lead all the Navy's enlisted?

A nuke has been MCPON (Herdt).
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
T. Roosevelt

Offline Irish

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #11 on: Nov 18, 2014, 02:34 »
Wow, you guys/gals are a wealth of info. thanks for your responses. I really do appreciate them, and your expertise.

Offline spekkio

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #12 on: Nov 18, 2014, 04:51 »
Lack of previous experience in a community isn't necessary to provide leadership.  As an ELT I could have gone from being the RLLCPO to being the RELCPO and succeeded.  My base knowledge level of electrical systems wouldn't be why I would be sent there; my ability to manage the division, along with the DIVO, and the programs within the division successfully is what matters.  To coordinate the division's interaction with the other divisions in Reactor Department as well as the rest of the ship.  Taking care of all that "Navy" stuff that exists (to most nukes at least) completely outside of their job.  For the subject matter expert part of it, I would rely on the First Classes and senior Second Classes.  Those Chiefs didn't become SMEs after they put their anchors on, they got to that level of knowledge long before that.
I agree with most of what you said, but I think you are underestimating the amount of technical expertise it requires to be a successful division Chief. RL-Div doesn't really own much equipment that requires maintenance and repairs. Yeah, they have radiacs, sampling equipment, and a PSS pump that needs to be replaced every so often, but you don't tear those suckers apart if they break...you just turn them in and get a new one.

RC division is responsible for a lot of electrical gear which directly affects reactor safety. Additionally, it's possible that the 'senior 1st class' or 'senior 2nd class' is a guy who has been on board for 2 years.That is not a whole lot of experience, and certainly not enough to make up for a Chief who isn't the most technically savvy person in the division.  A 2nd tour 1st class? He might be the most experienced, but there's a reason he didn't make Chief so he's not the guy you'll want to lean on. This ties into why I think it's a bad idea to reward nukes with increased rate instead of increased bonus pay. During complex evolutions like rod testing or calorimetrics, the RCLCPO is expected to be able to take the lead. When you get an unexpected LED on one of the cabinets, the RCLCPO is expected to take the lead in troubleshooting the problem.

What you detail is how larger forward divisions like Sonar worked...1-2 second tour 1st class petty officers who are technical experts, mentored by a Chief who provides leadership and fills in the gaps if the 1st classes can't get it.

Additionally, the fleet has also moved toward pushing Chiefs into taking a more hands-on approach to maintenance, particularly with RC Div who, in NR's view, keeps screwing up. That means requiring him to be there to supervise all RC-Div maintenance that could affect reactor safety, which is practically everything, to ensure that it's done correctly and standards are enforced. Even outside RC div, there was a push from squadron that 'the Chief is the work center supervisor.'

On my ustafish the eng dept Chiefs were the really technically savvy Chiefs, while the forward Chiefs were better at handling discipline and enforcing standards. When an eng dept Chief didn't know the answer, he at least knew how to research the problem and find an answer. Forward Chiefs didn't even know where the tech manuals were half the time. Thus we had the EDMC troubleshooting navigation equipment at one point. Unfortunately, very few were a combination of both.
« Last Edit: Nov 18, 2014, 04:56 by spekkio »

Offline MMM

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Re: Nuke MM Volunteer
« Reply #13 on: Nov 18, 2014, 08:31 »

RC division is responsible for a lot of electrical gear which directly affects reactor safety. Additionally, it's possible that the 'senior 1st class' or 'senior 2nd class' is a guy who has been on board for 2 years.That is not a whole lot of experience, and certainly not enough to make up for a Chief who isn't the most technically savvy person in the division.  A 2nd tour 1st class? He might be the most experienced, but there's a reason he didn't make Chief so he's not the guy you'll want to lean on. This ties into why I think it's a bad idea to reward nukes with increased rate instead of increased bonus pay. During complex evolutions like rod testing or calorimetrics, the RCLCPO is expected to be able to take the lead. When you get an unexpected LED on one of the cabinets, the RCLCPO is expected to take the lead in troubleshooting the problem.


Some of us just failed a PFA and made a bad career decision (or two).

 


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