Female Nuke Life

[moth68]

Hello!
I am new to this site, and if I post this in any odd format please excuse my forum ignorance. I have a few, but pertinent, questions as I'm considering enlisting as a Nuke. My stats are 255 Nuke and 252 EL with a 99 asvab so they said I ALPHA qualified. Of course I am concerned with all the rigorous training, passing A school and prototype... but I am more worried about the things I have read online about how female Nukes are treated. From what I've gathered during the two years of schooling sexual harassment and assault aren't too much of a concern with all the regulations put into place. I have heard from friends of female Nukes and read on other forums that once women are out to sea on carriers (and now subs) that the chance of being assaulted are double than in the civilian world. I will post some stats so you know I'm not spouting off nonsense:
1)In 2014, surveyed Active Duty Members of the military anonymously revealed 20,000 instances of unwanted sexual contact.  This included coerced and abusive sexual contact, aggravated sexual assault and rape.
2)Women make up 15 percent of active-duty forces, but 47 percent of sexual assault victims.
3)In one study, 37 percent of female veterans report being raped at least twice.
4)14 percent of female veterans report experiences of gang rape.
Also, check out the documentary Invisible War. It's on Netflix! It's long, but very interesting.

Most time the perpetrators are not prosecuted despite the evidence because of varying reasons. (look up those stats as well)
Then I hear all these stories that being a female Nuke has the most incidences of assault and harassment. There is no data on this, just word of mouth and other male/female Nuke stories on sites such as answers.com and just a general search of google. I know that some of the women there ARE INDEED sexually active on the ship, (even going so far as to get pregnant to escape sea duty) but I hear that just as frequently those stories are made up or actually incidences of assault told as consensual circumstances. Now I obviously know that there is nothing I can do to change "the system" or anything like that. (Women serving in the U.S. Marine Corps and the Navy are at a higher risk of being sexually assaulted, according to a new Pentagon report.--Military.com)  Also I am aware that issues of assault are problems for both genders, and should be treated as a non-gender specific problem. But I am only going to inquire about female problems in the Nuke field, but feel free to comment about male incidences and statistics as well. What I am trying to figure out is that if the attitudes toward female Nukes are true:
1)That people just assume the female got where she was because she slept up the latter. Not taking into account her grades, work ethic etc,
2)That men often treat women as a disturbance and do not give them the time of day because they are seen as a waste of time.
3)Sexual harassment is common among the Nuke community. Almost accepted.
4) If you do not "flirt" back or accept advances you're seen as a prude b*tch and treated as such.

Now I understand this post may seem a little controversial, but I would love honest replies about what you've seen and/or experienced working as a Nuke in the Navy when it pertains to sexual harassment. I am just wanting to serve my country, gain some knowledge/ hard work under my belt, and start a valuable career. I want some insight into what I am getting into. Thank you for your time, and if any of my stats are incorrect please adjust my errors.

[HeavyD]

The Navy, in general, is a snapshot of American society.

The statistics for civilian life are typically the same on the inside.

I was on my first ship when women were readmitted to the Navy's nuke program back in 1994.  When I transferred to prototype 2 years later, I had my first experiences with female sailors of any rate, because the ENTERPRISE had no women assigned to the ship during my three years there.

My experience for the next 15 years after that was that 90-95% of the female nuke sailors just want to be treated like everyone else.  That last 5-10%, just like a certain percentage of men, will attempt to use any means they can to get ahead without putting in the actual effort.  Again, this seems to mirror how things work on the civilian side.

1)That people just assume the female got where she was because she slept up the latter. Not taking into account her grades, work ethic etc,

This wasn't my experience.  Someone still on active duty may have something different to offer.

2)That men often treat women as a disturbance and do not give them the time of day because they are seen as a waste of time.

This same attitude exists in pretty much every society, military or not.  The carriers I was on, I didn't see it.  Being a guy, that may have played a part in it.  I treated everyone the same; show up on time and do what you're told or it's my boot in your @$$, dude or chick. 

3)Sexual harassment is common among the Nuke community. Almost accepted.

Never saw any evidence that supports this statement.  Never.

4) If you do not "flirt" back or accept advances you're seen as a prude b*tch and treated as such.

Again, this is no different than the same type of frat-boy behavior that seems to be prevalent in society today.  Not dismissing the statement as there will always be some @$$hole out there.

As for the stats posted, none of them speak specifically to Navy or even shipboard incidents.  Again, not dismissing what you've written, just putting things in proper context.

[Chimera]

I don't think your comments are controversial at all.  But I am wondering why you would even want to enlist in the Navy after reading through the "rosy" picture you've painted.

On a side note (but more on topic), I was out of the Navy long before they brought women aboard ships although there were plenty of women manning (ironic working?) shore billets.  I think HeavyD pretty well summed up what I saw on the shore stations even way back then.  As far as that goes, it's not a bad summary of what I saw amongst the road HP Techs as more and more women adopted that life style.

While I may not be able to attest to the exactness of your statistics, HeavyD has summarized things quite well.  While the Navy may present a unique life-style (living aboard ship), your statistics would probably apply equally to all branches of the military as well as most of corporate America.

[Rerun]

I am very close friends with five female Navy Nukes. One is getting out at the end of the week. The others have been out from a range of over 20 years to within the past couple.

PM me and I will get you in contact with all of them.

Just say you know me and they will go out of their way to help you.

[Rerun]

Check your PMs.

[Rerun]

Sent you the contact info for quite a few women nukes with whom I am on very good terms with.

They range from 3.5 years in to have been out for years. Many of those who are out are very successful in predominantly male oriented careers.

They are all happy to answer your questions.

[spekkio]

One thing to keep in mind is that sexual assault has been at the forefront of military commanders' minds for the last few years because of negative attention from the press and Congress. If you would like to indulge, I invite you to read USCENTCOM's posture statement. This man is in charge of multiple wars in a hotbed of conflict and his posture statement says that fighting sexual assault is his top priority.

With that attention comes very strict reporting guidelines and stringent data collection. I would wager that women who get 'unwanted sexual contact' in a bar, at a restaurant, shopping for clothes, or wherever usually don't call the police to report it - they handle it some other way. Unless her boyfriend/husband is standing around no one else is probably going to intervene or go anywhere with that information. No one other than that woman and her friends know that a man tried to touch her.

Even if this contact happened at a private company, more often than not the person will be fired and no report will be made to a federal agency collecting data on sexual assault, and that's if the company takes any action at all besides a 'talking' to people. AFAIK, there isn't any federal agency in charge of collecting employment termination data and there isn't any requirement for companies to report instances of suspected sexual assault.

If I witness a sailor do something stupid like that then I'm obligated to make it a command-level issue. The Sailor is going to be punished at mast at a minimum. The CO is going to have to report the instance to 'dad.' Now the Navy has a data point - repeat ad nauseum across the fleet. Also, unlike the civilian world this will count as an instance of sexual assault regardless of the outcome of NJP (non-judicial punishment) hearings or investigations. In civilian data they typically count arrests and convictions separately, the latter has a much, much higher standard of proof than NJP.

In summary, it's difficult to make a comparison between rates of sexual assault in the military and the civilian sector because the military will prosecute it more aggressively and take more detailed data on it.

One last thing also to note is that most of these reported instances occur outside of the ship and involve alcohol. Two sailors having sex on the ship, while not allowed by rules, is almost always consensual. If your parents haven't already taught you, then you heard it here: don't get stupid drunk and do keep your head on your shoulders.

I said this in another thread and I'll repeat it here: If you're afraid to join the military because of sexual assault, then you better stay far away from college universities.

[spekkio]

1)That people just assume the female got where she was because she slept up the latter. Not taking into account her grades, work ethic etc,

That would be a pretty difficult accomplishment. The Navy promotes through E-6 primarily based on how you do on the rating exam. It would be pretty difficult to find whoever was grading that thing and lure him into falsifying your score with sexual favors.

For E-7 and above it is more based on leadership experience and performance on the ship/boat, and you are ranked by the department heads and not your peers or immediate supervisors.

2)That men often treat women as a disturbance and do not give them the time of day because they are seen as a waste of time.

Nope.

3)Sexual harassment is common among the Nuke community. Almost accepted.

Nope. See above.

4) If you do not "flirt" back or accept advances you're seen as a prude b*tch and treated as such.

Nope. Everyone just wants sailors to pull their own weight. They don't care about what's between your legs, they care about whether you are going to do your part to support liberty (in port) or rack time (at sea) at a reasonable time.

[Rerun]

If she really cares for answers I have given her the contact info for about 15 women nukes. All at various stages in their career and to be honest their input matters. Ours doesn't.

[MMM]

1) If you're talking about advancement in rate, spekkio is correct. If you're talking about who gets selected for LPO (Leading Petty Officer), WCS (Work Center Supervisor), etc., then it's a little fuzzier. It is possible that a female might get selected for a job in the division based on who she's slept with, but I don't think I've seen that, as most supervisors realize that could end up destroying the division if she couldn't do the job. It's more likely that a female would not get selected for the job. I know from personal experience when I needed something done on the ship, especially underway, I called guys to do it, mostly because I couldn't remember the number for female berthing and on the times I did call female berthing, well, let's say it didn't go well. Also, it's sleeping up the ladder, not latter.

2) Not really, other than what I mentioned above.

3) I haven't seen it.

4) Also no. At least not within a division of nukes. We just want the work done so we can go home. Guys that you don't work with might get that attitude though.

[spekkio]

Only anecdotal evidence matters...

The OP was concerned on whether supervisors in the military condones sexual assault in the workplace. I am telling her that we don't.

I am also cautioning her that discrepancies exist because of the rigor that the military collects data.

Oftentimes people (men and women) don't have an accurate assessment of their own shortcomings, so it's easy to frame them as someone else's fault. E.g. "She got that promotion over me because she flirts with the boss." No, that's not true, but if that makes you feel better about yourself then continue to believe it.

There is value in getting women's perspectives on it, but there is also value in getting the outside observer's perspective. Most women who join the military are very motivated, bright capable people who put their best foot forward to prove themselves... but there are a minority of bad apples who treat an 80/20 male/female population like it's a sorority party, and those women eventually end up getting frustrated when sailors stop respecting them and gossip about them.

Act respectable and you'll be respected. General rule of life.

[moth68]

I'm sorry, I spelled Ladder as latter. That's what I get posting at 4:30 in the morning! But thank you all for giving this post the time of day and answering my questions. Also rerun has supplied me with an ample list of female Nukes to contact regarding this.

[bigdog46]

Anyone know if BROADZILLA is active?  He could add some spice to this thread.  Just a thought.

[Marlin]

Anyone know if BROADZILLA is active?  He could add some spice to this thread.  Just a thought.

No I don't think so, not more than Rerun  and I really mean that.

[Rerun]

Sure navy nuke supervisors have never sexually assaulted any female who worked for them and I bet Submariners never took videos of their naked female shipmates. Guys like spekkio ARE the problem

[Rennhack]

Guys like spekkio ARE the problem

That statement is in violation of site rules.

[spekkio]

Sure navy nuke supervisors have never sexually assaulted any female who worked for them and I bet Submariners never took videos of their naked female shipmates. Guys like spekkio ARE the problem

Who said that incidents never happen? Certainly not me. The fact that you can even quote incidents that were made public proves exactly what I was saying - the military is more transparent and more strict about sexual assault than almost every civilian company and college campus.

Go take your insults, hyperbole and strawmen somewhere else.

[Marlin]

I remembered this thread when I saw this article hope it helps. Its opinion but has facts as well on the current status of sexual harassment in the military.

Sexual assault in the military: we need to be more like Israel

http://allenbwest.com/2015/02/sexual-assault-in-the-military-we-need-to-be-more-like-israel/

[Flutistno3]

I know that this thread has been inactive for quite a while, but I feel the need to chime in. I joined the Navy as a nuke in 2001, six months before 9-11 happened. I went through the pipeline exactly as you'd expect, as an EMN. The reason I comment is because nobody has commented that HAS experienced the increased rates of sexual assault. Everyone here seems to think that everything is fine, and currently, it may be. BUT, back then, it wasn't. I graduated in class 02-02, the year that they re-admitted women into the program, and the second class that year. What I went through was HORRID. It was worse than torture. I was the only female in an A-school class of 13. One guy flirted with me non-stop, and another grabbed at my body on two different occasions. This may seem like no big deal, and I suppose it wasn't. The traumatic part, the part I've sought therapy about on numerous occasions, was the command response. I cursed at the guy that grabbed me on several occasions and every time I did, I was punished. It didn't matter that he grabbed me. It didn't matter that EVERYONE swore like sailors. I was punished because I was mormon (the same religion as my staff adviser) and because I was female. They stood me at attention once for 45 minutes and yelled in my face that I was a sh**bag and didn't deserve to wear their uniform. This was high-ranking enlisted men that did this. My brother was an instructor at the command and said that this is a standard procedure for repeat trouble-makers. But, what was I in trouble for?!?!? I have been through the entire sexual abuse victim standard protocols of "OMG what did I do to hurt him that he was like that to me" and "it was all my fault".... Typical reasons for abuse victims to seek therapy. Just know that there have been times that the rates of sexual assault on nuke females was common and unaddressed. Maybe now it is better, idk. But what I went through I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. I wouldn't want ANY human being to EVER be exposed to such mental and physical abuse. It has taken me YEARS to convince myself that just because they wore a uniform didn't make them right. Paperwork even got submitted for me to be Captain's Masted, and I to this day have no idea why I wasn't. The 11 other sailors in that room with me saw it happening, both times. They saw everything and did and said nothing. They were spineless asses too afraid to stand up for me. Sorry if I sound whiny or bitchy, but I just wanted people to know how bad the growing pains of integration of females in the nuke program has been through the years... Much love, Flutistno3.

[HeavyD]

So, this will probably not go over well, but your story has a large hole in it.

Women were readmitted to the program in 1994, not 2002.

There were women in the pipeline November 1996 through February 2000, when I was an instructor at NPTU, Charleston.

Also, your use of the phrase "Captain's Masted" seems.........wonky.

Now, I'm not saying you made up this story.  Sexual assault is all to prevalent in our society as a whole, much less on Active Duty.  However, something is definitely off here.

[wilkinakkk]

I agree that the recent post by Flutistno3 is suspect.  I was a woman in the pipeline in 1999, on the officer side.  My experience as a nuke was that women got preferential treatment most of the time.  That has been my experience as a NAVSEA contractor post-nuke life.  I have come across some rock-stupid women who were promoted because it gave the Navy another female engineer, or better yet, a minority female engineer.  I had stayed in, I probably would have ended up a DH even though I was not the brightest bulb or best shipdriver.

I had a RO who was going to get the mast conviction of one sailor in my division expunged so she, yes she, had a better chance of chief.  She gun decked a primary valve tagout (while her chief was watch officer).  Rock Stupid.  I was explicitly told to approve the chit, it was a good deal for her, not the other guys who had been to mast.

In 2001, a female had yet to make chief in the nuke rates, all the ROs wanted to have the first one be from their department.  It was a feather in their cap.

I don't recall a Sailor ever being punished for swearing at anyone of a similar rank.  Swearing at a superior is never a good plan.

I was the only woman in my SWOS section.  It was no big deal.  I was one of they guys, to the point that I ended up in the same locker room for fire fighting school because they forgot I was there.  I got a good view of some fine tighty-whities.  ;-)  Diver butts are (generally) better than nuke butts.

If a woman can't handle herself in a room with 12 men, the military (or engineering) is probably not the best job choice for her.  I've been there many times in my life -school, Navy, as an engineer.  If you can't deal with it, try education.

[Marlin]

I was the only woman in my SWOS section.  It was no big deal.  I was one of they guys, to the point that I ended up in the same locker room for fire fighting school because they forgot I was there.  I got a good view of some fine tighty-whities.  ;-)  Diver butts are (generally) better than nuke butts.