The Way Humans Get Electricity Is About to Change Forever

Started by Marlin, Jun 24, 2015, 04:02

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Marlin


Marlin

Quote from: Rerun on Jun 24, 2015, 04:16
Not in our lifetime

Since the projection is to 2040 that is a possibility, not that your response is any more than trolling as usual.

GLW

Quote from: Marlin on Jun 24, 2015, 04:46
Since the projection is to 2040 that is a possibility, not that your response is any more than trolling as usual.

I'll see it (whatever the chance of it happening might be),... [coffee]

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

HydroDave63

Quote from: Rerun on Jun 24, 2015, 04:16
Not in our lifetime

Quote from: Marlin on Jun 24, 2015, 04:46
Since the projection is to 2040 that is a possibility, not that your response is any more than trolling as usual.

So....I have a friend who knows a guy who has a friend that works in the industry....who says the most likely result is neither of these options. The problems being:

1. That big pretty yellow wedge for solar is science fiction. At $5/watt build cost vs. the average cost of residential electricity, it only pays for itself north of 12 cents/kWh residential within the expected lifetime of the equipment. Makes sense for Hawaii, not so much for Wisconsin. Hail skews the equation further to the left. Also, utility scale PV at current efficiency runs ~100 MW per square mile. The city-dwellers out there may think that covering the Southwest with PV is the way to go, but the Native tribes living there, endangered/protected species and rough terrain preclude that option.

2. Even though some politicians try to pReserve coal and others to Destroy it, showing the curve slope downwards while Red China keeps the furnaces of Mordor using more coal than the rest of the planet combined https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption#Coal is ludicrous. If anything, once the coal liquids industry (improved Davy process) picks up, the economic value of the coal may increase by a factor of 5-10.

3. Wind. Even though it has a lower build cost ~$2/watt, the cost of new transmission lines needed to send the power to places other than local niche ( i.e. forced by renewable mandates) markets is a looming ceiling.

Should we try to innovate and improve on what is out there, sure. But the breathless predictions of "about to change forever" is the kind of hype that resonates more with the hipsters posting about "disruptive tech", than us dinosaurs actually keeping the lights on at their local free wi-fi flavored coffee place.

Marlin

Quote from: HydroDave63 on Jun 25, 2015, 08:32

1. That big pretty yellow wedge for solar is science fiction. At $5/watt build cost vs. the average cost of residential electricity, it only pays for itself north of 12 cents/kWh residential within the expected lifetime of the equipment. Makes sense for Hawaii, not so much for Wisconsin. Hail skews the equation further to the left. Also, utility scale PV at current efficiency runs ~100 MW per square mile. The city-dwellers out there may think that covering the Southwest with PV is the way to go, but the Native tribes living there, endangered/protected species and rough terrain preclude that option.

Current technology I agree but solar has an increasing efficiency and lowering cost similar to Moore's Law for computers so I tend not to agree.

Quote from: HydroDave63 on Jun 25, 2015, 08:32
2. Even though some politicians try to pReserve coal and others to Destroy it, showing the curve slope downwards while Red China keeps the furnaces of Mordor using more coal than the rest of the planet combined https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption#Coal is ludicrous. If anything, once the coal liquids industry (improved Davy process) picks up, the economic value of the coal may increase by a factor of 5-10.

Money talks and with severe health issues from smog and other air pollutants I tend to agree with those who project cleaner energy sources in China. Couple that with Solar Moore's Law tomorrow is another day.



Quote from: HydroDave63 on Jun 25, 2015, 08:32
3. Wind. Even though it has a lower build cost ~$2/watt, the cost of new transmission lines needed to send the power to places other than local niche ( i.e. forced by renewable mandates) markets is a looming ceiling.

   Wind, the bird Cuisinart of power production, does not show that much increase in projected power share. There is not a large projection of increased efficiency and lowered cost so I agree.

Quote from: HydroDave63 on Jun 25, 2015, 08:32
Should we try to innovate and improve on what is out there, sure. But the breathless predictions of "about to change forever" is the kind of hype that resonates more with the hipsters posting about "disruptive tech", than us dinosaurs actually keeping the lights on at their local free wi-fi flavored coffee place.

That is just the title, the meat of the article is projection of power production by source up to 2040. I tend to think it will improve and if Solar persists on the curve it has been on there is room for optimism.

GLW

Quote from: Marlin on Jun 25, 2015, 09:14

..........   Wind, the bird Cuisinart of power production, does not show that much increase in projected power share. There is not a large projection of increased efficiency and lowered cost so I agree.


how soon we forget (our own posts and our own witticisms),...

Torching Birds With Killer Death Rays

Quote from: Marlin on Feb 15, 2014, 02:42
We already have Cuisinarts for birds I suppose a death ray is the logic progression.
************************************************************

Taxpayer-Funded Solar Farm Reportedly Torching Birds With Killer Death Rays

"The intense heat created by the thousands of mirrors, which can reach nearly 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, appears to be incinerating birds that fly near the towers.

Over the past few months, the scorched carcasses of dozens of dead birds have littered the grounds around the Ivanpah plant, Brightsource, which is based in Oaklandm Calif., said.

Sources involved in the projected originally estimated that some birds would be killed, but they had not counted on so many.

Federal biologists noted that the birds appeared to have singed or burned feathers."

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/14/taxpayer-funded-solar-farm-reportedly-torching-birds-with-killer-death-rays/

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Marlin

Quote from: GLW on Jun 26, 2015, 08:15
how soon we forget (our own posts and our own witticisms),...

Torching Birds With Killer Death Rays

The solar I was talking about was solar panels not solar farms. The big increase that the article talks about is roof top solar and I don't see a solar/steam power unit there. The "Solar Moore's Law" I mention refers to panels as well. I don't see a future for the solar farms eventually the public will no longer tolerate the environmental impact especially on raptors at the top of the food chain.


GLW

Quote from: Marlin on Jun 26, 2015, 09:13
The solar I was talking about was solar panels not solar farms......

Okay, but I'm not a mind reader,...

the article:

Quote from: Marlin on Jun 24, 2015, 04:02

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-23/the-way-humans-get-electricity-is-about-to-change-forever


includes a downloadable report,....

if you download the report and read it the report points to APAC as being the largest growth sector for the "new energies",...

and APAC is the biggest growth and user segment for solar farms:

Largest solar plant in Australia approved in Queensland

The largest proposed solar farm in Australia, and possibly the world...

http://www.solidworksapac.com/?p=545

Here's Why Apple Is Building Solar Farms in China

Apple just agreed to back two large solar farms in China. It's the biggest deal of its kind for a U.S. company operating in China. For China, the deal is only a beginning....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-21/here-s-why-apple-is-building-solar-farms-in-china

and the list of solar farms new construction projects in APAC goes on,...

Quote from: Marlin on Jun 26, 2015, 09:13
....I don't see a future for the solar farms eventually the public will no longer tolerate the environmental impact especially on raptors at the top of the food chain.

the Chinese public (APAC) is sending tigers into extinction status for the purpose of mixing fertility and enhancement concoctions using dried tiger penis,...

the Chinese public (APAC) is sending various bear species into extinction status for the purpose of mixing longevity concoctions using bear gall bladders,...

the Chinese public (APAC) is fishing the worldwide shark population into oblivion to make soup out of less than 2 percent of each sharks biomass, the rest is dumped to the bottom of the ocean,...

I don't see your intolerant public happening vis a vis solar farms and raptors,...

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Marlin

Quote from: GLW on Jun 26, 2015, 09:55
Okay, but I'm not a mind reader,...

From the article, seems pretty clear to me.

"3. The Revolution Will Be Decentralized
The biggest solar revolution will take place on rooftops. High electricity prices and cheap residential battery storage will make small-scale rooftop solar ever more attractive, driving a 17-fold increase in installations. By 2040, rooftop solar will be cheaper than electricity from the grid in every major economy, and almost 13 percent of electricity worldwide will be generated from small-scale solar systems.
$2.2 Trillion Goes to Rooftops by 2040 "

GLW

Quote from: Marlin on Jun 26, 2015, 10:09
From the article, seems pretty clear to me.

"3. The Revolution Will Be Decentralized
The biggest solar revolution will take place on rooftops. High electricity prices and cheap residential battery storage will make small-scale rooftop solar ever more attractive, driving a 17-fold increase in installations. By 2040, rooftop solar will be cheaper than electricity from the grid in every major economy, and almost 13 percent of electricity worldwide will be generated from small-scale solar systems.
$2.2 Trillion Goes to Rooftops by 2040 "

did you think that maybe there is some spin that goes past the numbers in that Item 3.?

here's the number for decentralized solar in 2040 - 13%

here's the numbers today:

   Coal = 39%
   Natural gas = 27%
   Nuclear = 19%
   Hydropower = 6%
  Other renewables (includes solar, currently at 0.4%) = 13.9%
   Petroleum = 1%
   Other gases < 1%

I'm not seeing much more out of Bloomberg than "buy solar",...

which is nice, unless fusion comes to the fore and blows subsidized solar into the buggy whip category,...

I can't get hyped about solar because for the span of my adult life solar has been constantly hyped,...

in the 1980's my home had a solar recirculator,...

the installation costs were subsidized by tax break incentives (aka national debt liabilities), and the total return to net zero was never realized for the three years I was there,...

and the new buyers wanted it removed from the house and repairs made to the installation space prior to sale as it was not aesthetic,...

that was not subsidized,...

and it's always something new and better with solar,...

and the older technology versions never break even without subsidy,...

and so, buying solar is a lot like buyng a car,...

AISI anyways,...

Enjoy the Solar Day!!!!

GLW  8)

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Marlin

Quote from: GLW on Jun 26, 2015, 10:22
and it's always something new and better with solar,...

Why yes, yes there is  ;) cheaper solar cells, more efficient cells, incorporation into windows, solar roofing tiles, better storage technologies etc. etc. I think that is the basis for projections.

;D

[coffee]

Chimera

I've been reading articles about "small scale" applications of solar and wind energy since the early 1960's - and it ain't happened yet.  There must be some sort of fundamental problem with these so-called energy sources.  All I've seen to date is that they seem to be a great way to make money from the federal government . . . and they make the tree-huggers feel good about themselves.

Marlin

Quote from: Rerun on Jun 26, 2015, 02:18
I can reduce all that to not in our lifetime

You seem to be able to reduce any conversation on any subject to a myopic self-aggrandizing talking point.

RDTroja

Quote from: Rerun on Jun 26, 2015, 02:18
I can reduce all that to not in our lifetime
Quote from: Marlin on Jun 26, 2015, 02:34
You seem to be able to reduce any conversation on any subject to a myopic self-aggrandizing talking point.

Key word: Reduce.  To lessen or make smaller. To bring down to a lower rank, dignity, etc.

Yeah, that fits.
"I won't eat anything that has intelligent life, but I'd gladly eat a network executive or a politician."

                                  -Marty Feldman

"Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to understand that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
                                  -Ronald Reagan

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

                                  - Voltaire

GLW

Quote from: Rerun on Jun 26, 2015, 02:18
I can reduce all that to not in our lifetime

okay, but I did not endure 8+ years of nuns smacking me with wooden compasses to get my English right to just sit on it and not use it later,...

nope, I earned my English stripes and I intend to flaunt 'em,....

the words that is,....as far as grammar and structure et al,..."Sister Immaculata can kiss my grits!!!!",...

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

SloGlo

Quote from: Chimera on Jun 26, 2015, 11:37
I've been reading articles about "small scale" applications of solar and wind energy since the early 1960's - and it ain't happened yet.  There must be some sort of fundamental problem with these so-called energy sources. 


their are all ways problems, and knot necessarily with the energy sources. twenty years ago, the problem with residential panels was efficiency; today that efficiency has increased to the point that storage is the current problem in the four front, panel efficiency has moved back in rank. engineering it doing it's thing, ala moore's law.
thirty years ago, residential use in suburban environs fore wind turbine generation had few problems, the technology hasn't changed much since then. the problem eye encountered with it was bureaucratic, because insuring against liabilities would devour any projection of saving. this has naught changed. if aye had a stream on my home site I wood look at hydro, butt i don't sew shan't.
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

Rerun

Not in our lifetime is not a shot at you or anyone. It simply means not in our lifetime. An accurate assesment

Marlin

Quote from: Marlin on Jun 26, 2015, 10:09
"3. The Revolution Will Be Decentralized
The biggest solar revolution will take place on rooftops. High electricity prices and cheap residential battery storage will make small-scale rooftop solar ever more attractive, driving a 17-fold increase in installations. By 2040, rooftop solar will be cheaper than electricity from the grid in every major economy, and almost 13 percent of electricity worldwide will be generated from small-scale solar systems.
$2.2 Trillion Goes to Rooftops by 2040 "

This is today with further cost reduction and building design who knows, I'm on the optimistic side again.

Five impressive integrated solar solutions for buildings

http://www.architectureanddesign.com.au/features/list/five-impressive-integrated-solar-solutions-for-bui

Marlin

Solar accounts for 1% of global electricity, how long will the next 1% take?

http://www.pv-tech.org/editors_blog/solar_accounts_for_1_of_global_electricity_how_long_will_the_next_1_take

"Solar Power Europe's Global Market Outlook for Solar power 2015-2019, which announced the 1% milestone, found that global solar capacity is now 178GW, which is 100 times more than it was 14 years ago.

GTM Research solar analyst Adam James told PV Tech that he expects global installed capacity to double by 2017. Thus, while it took 14 years to reach the 1% figure, solar will take just two years to reach close to 2%. However, James admitted that, in this case, GTM's forecasts are more optimistic than most competitors."

"James said that when you aggregate all of the smaller developing markets together, they will go from accounting for 1% of solar today to 17% over the next five years, marking a significant shift in the spread of the market."

SloGlo

when yew put that 17% with the giga-batteries in production and research, won can sea a shift coming.
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

Marlin


GLW

Quote from: Marlin on Jul 02, 2015, 04:05
Cheapest Solar Ever: Austin Energy Gets 1.2 Gigawatts of Solar Bids for Less Than 4 Cents

http://www.theenergycollective.com/stephenlacey/2245543/cheapest-solar-ever-austin-energy-gets-12-gigawatts-solar-bids-less-4-cents

[coffee]

from the "not a panacea" perspective:

(something along the lines of climate change, the climate will always change, and electricity sources will always change,.........forever is a misappropriated absolute)

Rest in Peace: The Fallen Solar Companies of 2014

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Honoring-the-fallen-solar-soldiers

.....

2014
Bankrupt, closed

   Areva's solar business (CSP) closed -- Suffering through a Fukushima-inspired slowdown in reactor sales, Areva exited its concentrated solar power business. Areva's solar unit consisted of the remains of the acquired startup Ausra.
   HelioVolt (CIGS thin-film PV) closed -- HelioVolt was founded in 2001 and aimed to fabricate CIGS solar panels. Thirteen years and more than $200 million in VC later, HelioVolt had shipped no commercial product and finally admitted defeat. A thin-film expert offered this take: "Founded on the idea of a transfer process (FAST) which never worked, HelioVolt went to a two-step process and finally adapted co-evaporation. However, the co-evaporation process the firm decided to copy was that of Solibro -- using point sources and an upward deposition orientation -- something with severe limitations in manufacturing."
   LDK (vertically integrated module builder) filed for bankruptcy
   Masdar PV (a-Si) closed its SunFab-based amorphous silicon PV factory in Germany.
   SolarMax (PV inverters) -- Swiss inverter maker SolarMax's parent firm, Sputnik Engineering, filed for insolvency.
   Sopogy (small-scale CSP) closed -- Sopogy promised smaller-size CSP for the distribution grid or even the rooftop. The startup collected more than $35 million in VC and strategic financing from investors including Southern California Gas Company, 3M, Mitsui & Co., Kolohala Ventures, Enerdigm Ventures, Black River Ventures, Pierre Omidyar and TWC.
   TEL (a-Si) withdrew from its a-Si solar business -- In 2012, the a-Si equipment division of Oerlikon was divested to Tokyo Electron (TEL) in a $275 million deal. In 2014, TEL withdrew from the PV panel production equipment business. Low efficiencies (below 11 percent), high costs, and cheap Chinese panels doomed a-Si and Oerlikon's effort.
   Xunlight (a-Si) went bankrupt -- Xunlight was adept at winning tax credits and government grants but never commercialized its roll-to-roll a-Si BIPV technology.

Acquisition, sale

   Emcore's CPV business -- Suncore acquired the remaining interest in Emcore's CPV business.
   RSI (CdTe PV panels) sold to Chinese strategic -- RSI, a VC-funded cadmium telluride thin-film solar module startup formerly known as Reel Solar, was acquired by an undisclosed "Chinese strategic," according to the company's CEO. RSI employs an electroplating process that works at a lower temperature than First Solar's and allows the use of larger glass sizes with an electrodeposition technology "inherited from Monosolar." According to the CEO's viewpoint, larger glass sizes drive down installed costs.
   Solar Junction (CPV semiconductors) sold to Saudi strategic -- Solar Junction raised more than $30 million from VC investors ATV, DFJ and NEA, but was sold to Saudi entity KACST and one of its investment arms, TAQNIA, according to sources close to the company. Solar Junction had developed record-setting triple-junction solar cells.
   SAG Solarstrom, a bankrupt PV project developer, was sold to Shunfeng Photovoltaic, the owner of PV panel builder Suntech, in an $85 million deal. Germany's SAG Solarstrom ranked among the top ten of PV O&M providers in the world in 2013.    

Watch list

   Concentrated photovoltaic companies that are not SunPower, Soitec or Suncore
   Concentrated solar power companies that are focused solely on CSP for utility-scale electricity


2009 to 2010
Bankrupt, closed, acquired

   Advent Solar (emitter wrap-through Si) acquired by Applied Materials
   Applied Solar (solar roofing) acquired by Quercus Trust
   OptiSolar (a-Si on a grand scale) -- OptiSolar's utility projects were acquired by First Solar; its manufacturing line was sold to NovaSolar.
   Ready Solar (PV installation) acquired by SunEdison
   Solasta (nano-coaxial solar) closed
   SV Solar (low-concentration PV) closed
   Senergen (depositing silane onto free-form metallurgical-grade Si substrates) closed
   Signet Solar (a-Si) bankrupt
   Sunfilm (a-Si) bankrupt
   Wakonda (GaAs) acquired by Siva


2011
Bankrupt, closed

   EPV Solar (a-Si) bankrupt
   Evergreen (drawn Si) bankrupt
   Solyndra (CIGS) bankrupt
   SpectraWatt (c-Si) bankrupt
   Stirling Energy Systems (dish engine) bankrupt

Acquisition, sale

   Ascent Solar (CIGS) acquired by TFG Radiant
   Calyxo (CdTe) acquired by Solar Fields from Q-Cells
   HelioVolt (CIGS) acquired by Korea's SK Innovation
   National Semiconductor Solar Magic (panel optimizers) exited systems business
   NetCrystal (silicon on flexible substrate) acquired by Solar Semiconductor
   Soliant (CPV) acquired by Emcore


2012
Bankrupt, closed

   Abound Solar (CdTe) bankrupt
   AQT (CIGS) closed
   Ampulse (thin silicon) closed
   Arise Technology (PV modules) bankrupt
   Azuray (microinverters) closed
   BP (c-Si panels) exits solar business
   Centrotherm (PV manufacturing equipment) bankrupt and restructured
   CSG (c-Si on glass) closed by Suntech
   Day4 Energy (cell interconnects) delisted from TSX exchange
   ECD (a-Si) bankrupt
   Energy Innovations (CPV) bankrupt
   Flexcell (a-Si roll-roll BIPV) closed
   Gadir Solar (a-Si PV) Spain-based customer of Oerlikon Solar closed
   GlobalWatt (solar) closed
   GreenVolts (CPV) closed
   G24i (DSCs) bankrupt in 2012, re-emerged as G24i Power with new investors
   Hoku (polysilicon) shut down its Idaho polysilicon production facility
   Inventux (a-Si) bankrupt
   Konarka (OSCs) bankrupt
   Odersun (CIGS) bankrupt
   Pramac (a-Si panels built with equipment from Oerlikon) insolvent
   Pairan (Germany inverters) insolvent
   Ralos (developer) bankrupt
   REC Wafer (c-Si) bankrupt
   Satcon (BoS) bankrupt
   Schott (c-Si) exits c-Si business
   Schuco (a-Si) shutting down its a-Si business
   Sencera (a-Si) closed
   Siliken (c-Si modules) closed
   Skyline Solar (LCPV) closed
   Siemens (CSP, inverters, BOS) divestment from solar
   Solar Millennium (developer) insolvent
   Solarhybrid (developer) insolvent
   Sovello (Q-Cells, Evergreen, REC JV) bankrupt
   SolarDay (c-Si modules) insolvent
   Solar Power Industries (PV modules) bankrupt
   Soltecture (CIGS BIPV) bankrupt
   Sun Concept (developer) bankrupt

Acquisition, fire sale, restructuring

   Oelmaier (Germany inverters) insolvent, bought by agricultural supplier Lehner Agrar
   Q-Cells (c-Si) insolvent, acquired by South Korea's Hanwha
   Sharp (a-Si) backing away from a-Si, retiring 160 of its 320 megawatts in Japan
   Solibro (CIGS) Q-Cells unit acquired by China's Hanergy
   Solon (c-Si) acquired by UAE's Microsol  
   Scheuten Solar (BIPV) bankrupt, then acquired by Aikosolar
   Sunways (c-Si, inverters) bought by LDK, restructuring to focus on BIPV and storage


2013
Bankrupt, closed

   Array Converter (Module-level power electronics) bankrupt, IP to VC investor
   Avancis (CIGS) discontinuing production
   Bosch (c-Si PV module) exits module business
   Concentrator Optics (CPV) bankrupt
   Cyrium (CPV semiconductors) bankrupt
   Direct Grid (microinverters) closed
   GreenRay (microinverters) closed
   Helios Solar (c-Si modules) bankrupt
   Hoku Solar (silicon) bankrupt
   Honda Soltec (CIGS thin-film modules) closing
   Infinia (Stirling engine CSP) bankrupt
   Nanosolar (CIGS) closed
   Pythagoras Solar (BIPV) closed
   Solarion (CIGS)  went bankrupt but restructured and in limited production
   SolFocus (CPV) bankrupt
   Sunsil (module level electronics) closed
   Suntech Wuxi (c-Si) bankrupt
   Tioga (project developer) closed
   Willard & Kelsey (CdTe panels) bankrupt
   ZenithSolar (CHP) bankrupt

Acquired

   Agile Energy (project developer) acquired by RES Americas
   Bosch (c-Si PV module) acquired by SolarWorld
   Diehl (Germany inverters) inverter division sold to PE firm mutares AG
   Conergy (c-Si module) -- Astronergy, a part of China's Chint Group, acquired Conergy's PV module manufacturing assets. Kawa Capital Management purchased the solar projects business.
   GE-Primestar (CdTe technology acquired from PrimeStar)  acquired by First Solar
   Global Solar Energy (CIGS) acquired by Hanergy
   Infinia (Stirling engine CSP) assets acquired by Israel's Qnergy
   MiaSolĂ© (CIGS) acquired by China's Hanergy  
   NuvoSun (CIGS) acquired by Dow
   Suntech Wuxi (c-Si) acquired by Shunfeng Photovoltaic International for $492 million
   Twin Creeks (kerfless Si) IP and other assets acquired by GT Advanced Technology
   Wuerth Solar (installer) business turned over to BayWa
   Wuerth Solar (CIGS line) taken over by Manz
   ZenithSolar (CHP) acquired by Suncore



been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Marlin

Quote from: GLW on Jul 02, 2015, 09:26
from the "not a panacea" perspective:

(something along the lines of climate change, the climate will always change, and electricity sources will always change,.........forever is a misappropriated absolute)

Who claimed a cure all ??? The original article showed solar as part of an ever changing mix of power production. Failure of many of the companies are probably linked to the feeding frenzy of government money Solyndra a prime example. This article cites a success story so I wonder about the applicability of your post. Government dabling in the market is a whole different subject for PolySci. My subsequent posts have simply shown the viablity of the "Moore Law" as it applys to future use of PV solar power.

Just sayin'  [coffee]




HydroDave63

Quote from: Marlin on Jul 03, 2015, 01:03
This article cites a success story so I wonder about the applicability of your post.

The article cites a power purchase agreement. Just a contract, not 1.5 square miles of PV panels. Much of the article's few numbers are based on projections, not delivered, installed, producing and years of failure-free service. Many of the past projects cited by GLW were also breakthrough success stories in their day....until either the factories failed to produce a single PV cell, or the concentrator thingie wasn't nearly as efficient as promised (so the supplier doesn't want to provide more collectors out of their pocket, and the customer doesn't have more land to install a larger number of less-efficient collectors), the third-party loans fails to materialize, 'the dog ate my homework', etc.

Great ideas fail for all sorts of reasons. Otherwise, we would be reading about Enron buying all of these solar projects, while typing away on our virus-free Kaypro computers running CP/M.

Marlin

Quote from: HydroDave63 on Jul 03, 2015, 04:07
The article cites a power purchase agreement. Just a contract, not 1.5 square miles of PV panels. Much of the article's few numbers are based on projections, not delivered, installed, producing and years of failure-free service. Many of the past projects cited by GLW were also breakthrough success stories in their day....until either the factories failed to produce a single PV cell, or the concentrator thingie wasn't nearly as efficient as promised (so the supplier doesn't want to provide more collectors out of their pocket, and the customer doesn't have more land to install a larger number of less-efficient collectors), the third-party loans fails to materialize, 'the dog ate my homework', etc.

Great ideas fail for all sorts of reasons. Otherwise, we would be reading about Enron buying all of these solar projects, while typing away on our virus-free Kaypro computers running CP/M.

From the article apparently solar is too successful as they regret not waiting for cheaper bids I would call solar a success in this case and substantiation that Moore's Law is also applicable to solar PVs

"These bids are without question the cheapest bids ever seen in a utility solar solicitation," said Cory Honeyman, a senior analyst with GTM Research.

This price trend is a mixed blessing for developers and the utility. It shows that Austin Energy will be able to meet its 600-megawatt target with competitive PV resources. But Shalabi also said the company has "a little bit of buyer's remorse" when bids came down 20 percent after signing the 150-megawatt contract with Recurrent.

Yes, solar prices are coming down so quickly that a 5-cent contract can induce buyer's remorse.

This could cause delays for developers if Austin Energy cuts its procurement in 2015 in the hopes that solar prices keep dropping.


The future is bright I gotta wear shades.   8)