ENTRANCE IN THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM

[erhowell]

I am an early college high school student meaning instead of going to my last two years of high school I went to college instead. I was going for engineering and mathematics however I decided to try for the nuke program here. I am scared I wont be offered a spot in the program because because there isn't position open or I will not be offered any higher level jobs. I scored in the 90s on a practice test and I have finished my upper level calculus classes at my university. I really want the Nuke program but I am willing to settle for any engineering or technology program. Eventually I want to go back to college if I do Navy and finish my degrees in math and engineering.
I can't apply for the NROTC program because I have too many college credits and the NUPOC program requires me to be at least 19 to apply and I will be almost done with college by then.
Also what would my chances be for the sta-21 or the boost program?

[spekkio]

Finish college.

If you still want to apply for the Navy, apply for NUPOC then. You'll make enough money to pay off your student loans.

There are ALWAYS spots open. The military personnel model is a revolving door. If the job you want is 'closed,' call back on Oct 1.

If you enlist your college career will be on hold for 6-8 years. You will then practically be starting your college education from scratch.

[Tylor]

I agree with Spekkio. Finish your college, and if you're interested in the Navy continue exploring your options for earning a commission. I have several friends who've gone through with me enlisted who had bachelors degrees in mathematics, physics, civil engineering, etc. who didn't explore all they're options before enlisting.
I am enlisted, so I don't know much about officer recruiting, but I know that recruiters will be quick to throw an enlisted nuke contract at you, and talk all about your options once your enlisted for obtaining a commission. Speaking from experience, it's harder than they lead on.

[spekkio]

I am enlisted, so I don't know much about officer recruiting, but I know that recruiters will be quick to throw an enlisted nuke contract at you, and talk all about your options once your enlisted for obtaining a commission. Speaking from experience, it's harder than they lead on.

What recruiters also won't tell you is that they came off two tours on a DDG as a GM, and the only thing they know about nuke is what the pamphlet says. That, and getting you to sign a nuke contract counts as two recruits for the month.

[HeavyD]

I'm going to ask the as-of-yet unasked question.

Why do you want to be an officer in the United States Navy?

This is important because as a Nuke SWO (Surface Warfare Officer) who stays beyond their carrier Division Officer tour, approximately 3/4 of your career will be in non-Nuke billets.  Also, your job as an officer is to be a leader for the division, run the programs your division is responsible for (i.e. planned/preventive maintenance, approving personnel evaluations, assigning personnel responsibilities, etc.), generally the non-Nuke activities that the rest of the Navy does on a routine basis.

I'm not asking to try and tell you that you are looking in the wrong career field; I ask because I get the feeling that you don't have a good, solid idea of what a commissioned officer does in the in Navy, other than get paid more than most of the enlisted sailors.

I'm also not sure that you are mature enough, at the age of 19 (when you graduate college), to be a Division Officer.  Yes, that is a generalized statement based on a stereotype.  I make it based on what I dealt with as a Division Chief and my sailors who were 19 years old.

Gather as much info as possible.  Do NOT sign an enlisted contract or pursue a Nuke officer position thinking you will be performing engineering work; that's not what Navy nukes, enlisted or officer, do.  Navy Nukes operate and maintain the propulsion plant aboard aircraft carriers and submarines, facilitating placing ordnance on station before the bad guys can do the same to us

Best of luck to you as you figure out what is best for YOU! 

[spekkio]

I think your questions about OP's motives and expectations are spot on. But this...

I'm also not sure that you are mature enough, at the age of 19 (when you graduate college), to be a Division Officer.  Yes, that is a generalized statement based on a stereotype.  I make it based on what I dealt with as a Division Chief and my sailors who were 19 years old.

You do know that up until WWII it was common practice for butter bars to commission at 16, right?

The maturity level between a 19 year old and 22 year old is marginal. If 19 wasn't old enough then the requirement wouldn't be 19. Your junior enlisted sailors didn't go through the same training pipeline.

[HeavyD]

You do know that up until WWII it was common practice for butter bars to commission at 16, right?

Absolutely remember this.  However, that was during an entirely different time in our societal past.  The typical 19 year old isn't ready to be a commissioned officer.  It is entirely possible that the OP may be different.

Now, given the way that the career path flows for a SWO JO today, doing a DIVO tour on a destroyer or cruiser before going to Power School, may give him/her time to mature further.  Still not an ideal scenario, for a typical intellectual 19 year old, in my opinion.

[spekkio]

Absolutely remember this.  However, that was during an entirely different time in our societal past.  The typical 19 year old isn't ready to be a commissioned officer.  It is entirely possible that the OP may be different.

Now, given the way that the career path flows for a SWO JO today, doing a DIVO tour on a destroyer or cruiser before going to Power School, may give him/her time to mature further.  Still not an ideal scenario, for a typical intellectual 19 year old, in my opinion.

I think a typical 19 year old with the proper training can handle being a DIVO just fine.

One thing the Navy does poorly is build leadership and maturity among middle enlisted sailors (E4-E6) and JOs. It's just part of the service culture and your sentiment about 19 year olds not being able to handle responsibility is reflective of that culture. It's particularly bad in the nuclear Navy. Lots of E-5s and E6s, not a lot of 1st class petty officers. "LPO" is only something that was used to put on an eval.

We had two 1st class who could run the day-to-day operations of the division with minimal intervention from the Chief except when he needed to call upon his technical expertise, and they were a sonar tech and A-ganger. On the JO end lots of submarine JOs leave the Navy feeling like they were never given responsiblity for anything besides maintaining admin binders. Whenever something is remotely tough either the Eng/CO is standing over your shoulder or the DHs take the watch. We tend to shield our junior personnel from responsibility because 'big daddy' - the Chief (enlisted) or the CO (officers) is always just a call away, and the chances that you will have to step-up and fill his shoes because the sub took battle damage is 0% - if the CO, XO, and 3 DHs are incapacitated then the boat is probably on the ocean floor.

I brought up WWII for officers, but you also have to realize that during the last 10 years there are 19-20 year olds who served as fire team leaders in OEF/OIF who made decisions that were directly responsible for the lives of their fellow soldiers and Marines.

I was pissed off when he said it but my DI was correct to some degree when he said "I've been doing a Chief's job since I was a corporal." That degree is in leading personnel, although in fairness a corporal isn't responsible for maintaining millions of dollars of equipment on a boat.

[HeavyD]

One thing the Navy does poorly is build leadership and maturity among middle enlisted sailors (E4-E6) and JOs. It's just part of the service culture and your sentiment about 19 year olds not being able to handle responsibility is reflective of that culture. It's particularly bad in the nuclear Navy. Lots of E-5s and E6s, not a lot of 1st class petty officers. "LPO" is only something that was used to put on an eval.

We had two 1st class who could run the day-to-day operations of the division with minimal intervention from the Chief except when he needed to call upon his technical expertise, and they were a sonar tech and A-ganger. On the JO end lots of submarine JOs leave the Navy feeling like they were never given responsibility for anything besides maintaining admin binders. Whenever something is remotely tough either the Eng/CO is standing over your shoulder or the DHs take the watch. We tend to shield our junior personnel from responsibility because 'big daddy' - the Chief (enlisted) or the CO (officers) is always just a call away, and the chances that you will have to step-up and fill his shoes because the sub took battle damage is 0% - if the CO, XO, and 3 DHs are incapacitated then the boat is probably on the ocean floor.

I brought up WWII for officers, but you also have to realize that during the last 10 years there are 19-20 year olds who served as fire team leaders in OEF/OIF who made decisions that were directly responsible for the lives of their fellow soldiers and Marines.

All fair and true points.

I tried not to stand over my guys and gals, as much as possible, but that's slightly off-topic.

Steering back towards my main question, it still stands; Why does the OP want to be an officer?

If the answer revolves around things like experience being responsible for others, management experience, the opportunity to lead, those are the types of people who perform better in the role of DIVO and beyond. 

If the guy/gal is wanting a commission because of the money, those types of JOs were a major pain in the @$$, for both the Mess and the Wardroom. 

[GLW]

.....Also what would my chances be for the sta-21 or the boost program?

When all is said and done,....

10%, on average,.....

[Tylor]

Your chances for STA-21 or Boost are very slim, but if you want to go to the Naval Academy to earn your commission, about 80-90 percent of people who apply from the nuke field are picked up to go to the naval academy.

[GLW]

............but if you want to go to the Naval Academy to earn your commission, about 80-90 percent of people who apply from the nuke field are picked up to go to the naval academy.

well,...that's kinda cool,....I do not remember things being so,...

but,...my "so" is literally 30 to 35 years ago,...

so essentially, my experiences are essentially irrelevant,...

I need a beer,....  

[spekkio]

Your chances for STA-21 or Boost are very slim, but if you want to go to the Naval Academy to earn your commission, about 80-90 percent of people who apply from the nuke field are picked up to go to the naval academy.

You got a source for that?

First, in order for OP to commission he has to get a waiver from bupers saying that the nuke community will release him. This waiver is granted for STA-21 applicants out of prototype (who are practically forced to go submarines anyway). Not sure about Naval academy applicants out of prototype, since the nuke community isn't guaranteed to get their piece. However, I bring this up because his odds of getting this waiver after prototype, with the exception of being within 12 months of EAOS, is practically 0% - even for USNA.

Second, in order to be eligible for the Naval academy you have to be older than 17 but younger than 23 and not married. This part probably won't be a problem for him.

Third, his admission is going to be primarily based upon his high school grades and standardized test scores, as he will have almost no enlisted record to bolster his application. If he doesn't have a very good GPA and high SAT or ACT scores, being in the nuke pipeline isn't going to make a bit of difference.

[HeavyD]

Second, in order to be eligible for the Naval academy you have to be older than 17 but younger than 23 and not married.

There was, if I recall correctly, a stipulation that you not have any dependents, i.e. children or siblings that you are the legal guardian of, etc.  Is that still a pre-req?

In reality OP, if you are looking for a low-risk, high-reward scenario where you get commissioned as an officer, going enlisted is not it.

Possible?  Absolutely.  Probable?  No.

Again, best of luck to you.

[spekkio]

There was, if I recall correctly, a stipulation that you not have any dependents, i.e. children or siblings that you are the legal guardian of, etc.  Is that still a pre-req?

Yes, although as I'm sure you are aware it would be difficult to join the Navy in any capacity as the sole caretaker of someone. They even let people out for that sort of thing.

[Tylor]

You got a source for that?

When I was a student in Charleston, the CCC told me that 86% of the people who applied for the naval academy (meaning they already fit all the requirements to join the academy) were accepted. Almost everyone I knew who applied were accepted. While the chances were very good to be accepted, most people didn't want to go to the Naval Academy when programs like STA-21 existed. From what I've been told, the stipend for the naval academy is pathetic next to other programs, also you don't receive O-1E from the naval acadamy, like you would other programs.

So to actually answer your question, no. I have no source, only what I've been told from people I consider very credible. For actual numbers, out of the 10 people I knew who applied for the naval academy (all students in A-school or power school) only 1 person was not picked up.

[spekkio]

When I was a student in Charleston, the CCC told me that 86% of the people who applied for the naval academy (meaning they already fit all the requirements to join the academy) were accepted. Almost everyone I knew who applied were accepted. While the chances were very good to be accepted, most people didn't want to go to the Naval Academy when programs like STA-21 existed. From what I've been told, the stipend for the naval academy is pathetic next to other programs, also you don't receive O-1E from the naval acadamy, like you would other programs.

So to actually answer your question, no. I have no source, only what I've been told from people I consider very credible. For actual numbers, out of the 10 people I knew who applied for the naval academy (all students in A-school or power school) only 1 person was not picked up.

I was curious because the entry requirements for the Naval academy are fairly rigorous. You'd think that the person would've skipped the nuclear power school part and just applied if they were competitive.

Also if I heard correctly the O1E thing has gone away from STA-21. You are no longer considered AD while at STA-21. Too many people were skating to retirement as terminal O-3s out of the program. Some nukes were 'on the cusp' and had to select O-4 but didn't have select (or stay in for) an XO tour to retire.

[Tylor]

The entry requirements are fairly rigorous, but if you apply once you're in the military, you no longer require a congressional recommendation, and your chances of being selected significantly increase. Again, my only reference for that is what the CCC in Charleston told me, but a few of the people I knew who applied for the naval academy had already applied before they joined and were rejected.

Instead of just having high school transcripts and SAT/ACT scores to judge, the person now has military experience and has a a-school/power school gpa to go off of. People who didn't make it could even be told if they increased their GPA above a certain mark and re-applied, they would be accepted.

I'm applying for the STA-21 program as a JSI in prototype, so I'm pretty shocked to hear that STA-21 candidates are no longer considered AD. That was a big part of the allure for me applying vice the Naval Academy program.

[spekkio]

I'm applying for the STA-21 program as a JSI in prototype, so I'm pretty shocked to hear that STA-21 candidates are no longer considered AD. That was a big part of the allure for me applying vice the Naval Academy program.

I double checked it and I was incorrect - the STA-21 program doesn't count toward retirement. I presumed this meant that OCs lost AD status, but the last line on the STA-21 page says 'Such active service shall be counted in computing the years of active service of the officer for all other purposes.' It's worth verifying with someone who is in the program post 2010.

Oh, and you should go STA-21 vs. Naval Academy so you can, you know, actually enjoy your college experience.

Instead of just having high school transcripts and SAT/ACT scores to judge, the person now has military experience and has a a-school/power school gpa to go off of. People who didn't make it could even be told if they increased their GPA above a certain mark and re-applied, they would be accepted.

Well, prototype students don't really have any 'military experience' to go off of (i.e. they don't have an eval in an at-sea billet), which is why I was surprised at the success rate.