Help | Contact Us
NukeWorker.com
NukeWorker Menu New documentary about nuclear worker safety

Author Topic: New documentary about nuclear worker safety  (Read 14805 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tony West

New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« on: Oct 14, 2015, 11:18 »
Hello everyone, just wanted to drop in and let you know about my documentary
"The Safe Side Of The Fence"

The film deals with safety in the workplace from the Manhattan Project to today's nuclear workers.

The Energy Employee's Occupational Illness Compensation Program Act is a main theme in the film also.

Check out the trailer on the site Thesafesideofthefence.com

I made this film for older workers who are struggling with the compensation program but some of you may appreciate the history also.

Best,
Tony

Offline Marlin

  • Forum Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 13146
  • Total likes: 534
  • Karma: 5129
  • Gender: Male
  • Stop Global Whining!!!
Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #1 on: Oct 14, 2015, 04:08 »
   Your trailer seems a bit sensationalized. Is this intended for nuclear workers in general or just the Department of Energy. A mortality rate that claims most workers ten years after retirement seems a bit hard to believe. Yes there were many hazards from Manhattan Project work which like many industries prior to OSHA did not fully recognize or regulate hazardous materials. Love Canal and PCB contaminated oil used on dirt roads led to these changes not just the DOE. I am not saying that there were not hazards and injury from them but it would be not just from inside the fence of the DOE or private nuclear industries. The Cuyahoga River caught fire from pollutants from a variety of sources, the Chesapeake bay was poisoned by a mom and pop pesticide shop that was a converted gas station, there is an estimated million pounds of PCB a the bottom of the Hudson river and so on and so on... Focusing on one or two industries when the evolution of safety has been a much broader effort might make some of us a little jaundiced on the film.


Just sayin'    [coffee]

Offline Tony West

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #2 on: Oct 14, 2015, 05:23 »

"Is this intended for nuclear workers in general or just the Department of Energy."

Both, because sometimes it's hard to separate the two.  Many commercial workers go to work in buildings that were used for DOE or AEC work in the past and contaminated by weapons work.

Are you familiar with the Energy Employees compensation program I mentioned?
Do you know any workers in that program?  Have you spoken with them?
Do you currently work inside of an SEC site?

So far the film has been very well received by workers that have been dealing with the program.  Young and old, DOE or Not.

We have received request from workers from all over the country to bring the film to their area.

If you see the film, you will see examples of the challenges that workers are dealing with today.
No need to sensationalize anything.  I just listen to the workers and place official government documents on the screen so the viewers can make up their own minds.

These workers don't deserve to be forgotten about just because the harm done to them was in the past.  Many of them are still here today and I'm honored to have them in the film.

Tony


Offline Marlin

  • Forum Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 13146
  • Total likes: 534
  • Karma: 5129
  • Gender: Male
  • Stop Global Whining!!!
Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #3 on: Oct 14, 2015, 06:18 »
   You are right they should not be forgotten and there is plenty of skeletons in the closet. I have 45 years in the nuclear field commercial, DOE, and Army Corp or Eng.. Yes I am aware of the compensation programs that are as poorly run as the VA. I currently live near Oak Ridge Tennessee and have worked several of the sites on the Oak Ridge Reservation. There are CDC and union efforts not only to help those who are injured but facilities to help diagnose the injuries.
   As for the lack of help much of that comes from the dose reconstruction (chemical or radiological) and the older the case the harder it is. I am sure some of it is from bureaucracy just like our veterans when dealing with the VA. Typically only a small fraction of those exposed to hazardous material have incurred injury. Asbestos workers in factories full of airborne fibers only had a 30% rate of asbestosis. The Radium dial ladies all had measurable radium and daughter products in their system but many did not come down with the associated cancers. It is even thought that the number of X-Rays to diagnose the cancers actually caused some of the cancers.
   That being said I have seen many negative articles, books and films that do not give a balanced view of any subject that has nuclear or radiation in it as part of it's subject matter. Many of us got a good laugh from the China Syndrome or Silkwood. I have worked with technicians who worked with silkwood and they have a very different view of what happened than is promoted by anti-nukes or Hollywood. When I said jaundiced I meant skeptical. I have worked in facilities when something happened that was no big deal but the evening paper made it seem that major negligence occurred and risk to the public was imminent.

   If you are helping and promoting a balanced presentation good, if you are promoting a preconceived point of view I guess I will see when I watch your film, but as I stated originally the trailer seems to focus on human pathos not the evolution of safety culture in nuclear power, DOE or OSHA. You did say "The film deals with safety in the workplace from the Manhattan Project to today's nuclear workers".
  

  
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015, 06:28 by Marlin »

Offline Tony West

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #4 on: Oct 14, 2015, 07:02 »

"You are right they should not be forgotten and there is plenty of skeletons in the closet."

But the fact is, they HAVE been forgotten.  That's why I felt like I needed to make this film.  When workers walk up to me after seeing the film they say "Thank you for telling this story"

People have no idea what the EEOICPA even is and why we need it.  They don't know about Dose Reconstruction or SEC's or any of it.

I have seen Presidential candidates say that we need to get rid of the Department of Energy.  Think somebody that makes a statement like that knows what a Legacy site is or who takes care of one?
The sad thing is, the public isn't educated enough themselves to know what a clown statement that was.

I know that people hype things in up to sell papers, clicks and whatever.  I will grant you that.  Before I put this film out I went to a member of the scientific community and asked for his review.  He praised the film for NOT being hyperbolic.  But every must judge it themselves.

"You did say, The film deals with safety in the workplace from the Manhattan Project to today's nuclear workers".

Yes, From workers at Mallinckrodt that sent the material to Fermi in Chicago to Honeywell's workers who were locked out in 2010 over their healthcare plan.  To Denise Brock's fight to expand this program.

Most people in this country don't know the name Denise Brock.  They should.

If you worked at OR then I know you know that's one of the original SEC sites and how much the program has paid out to workers at that site alone.

BTW, the Radium girls came long before 1942, so no excuse for not protecting workers that late in the game.

Offline GLW

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #5 on: Oct 14, 2015, 07:24 »
.....BTW, the Radium girls came long before 1942, so no excuse for not protecting workers that late in the game.

sure there was,...

in 1942 the nation was focused on the survival of democracy,...

no schedule floats for focused long term affects studies, or 6 month peer review and approvals processes,...

fighting men were dying by the thousands every day, civilians were dying by the millions every month,...

and if the bad guys got a usable bomb first while exploiting and exterminating slave labor to make it so, your future to be here and be dismissive of the safety efforts that were made in those days would be doubtful,...

democracy was not preordained or guarateed victory over totalitarianism,...

I was not there,...

My grandfathers were,...

And I know anecdotally that no matter how many times the radsafety guys lectured the workers in the PPG to the contrary, that the hardheaded mokes still pulled conch out of the downwind lagoons, fermented them and ate them,...

My grandfather took the radsafety guys at their word, and died of a broken heart at 92YO,...

safety accountability is a two way street,...

perhaps we could be thankful we live in the society which survived, and where that accountability discussion is debated and reconciled,...

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline GLW

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #6 on: Oct 14, 2015, 07:36 »
OBTW,...

as to this absolute:

....But the fact is, they HAVE been forgotten.....

if THIS exists:

....People have no idea what the EEOICPA even is and why we need it.  They don't know about Dose Reconstruction or SEC's or any of it....

then THEY have not been forgotten have they?

"people" have no idea what FERC or NERC are either, doesn't mean that electrical transmission has been forgotten,...

I can go on, but this is more about hyping an audience for your movie than it is a social vocation,...

more power to ya, capitalism is an equal opportunity opportunist,...

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline Marlin

  • Forum Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 13146
  • Total likes: 534
  • Karma: 5129
  • Gender: Male
  • Stop Global Whining!!!
Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #7 on: Oct 14, 2015, 08:03 »
But the fact is, they HAVE been forgotten.  That's why I felt like I needed to make this film.  When workers walk up to me after seeing the film they say "Thank you for telling this story"

People have no idea what the EEOICPA even is and why we need it.  They don't know about Dose Reconstruction or SEC's or any of it.

Not forgotten and yes most workers in DOE are familiar with EEOICPA through unions, federal agencies, advocacy groups such as Cold War Patriots ( http://www.coldwarpatriots.org/ ) not to mention occupational worker training.

I have seen Presidential candidates say that we need to get rid of the Department of Energy.  Think somebody that makes a statement like that knows what a Legacy site is or who takes care of one?
The sad thing is, the public isn't educated enough themselves to know what a clown statement that was.

You might add that the National Nuclear Security Admistration is a subset of the DOE. Someone has to safely maintain and ensure operability of our nuclear weapons.  ;)

BTW, the Radium girls came long before 1942, so no excuse for not protecting workers that late in the game.

Perhaps I could have used a better example. I was trying demonstrate why dose Reconstruction was an issue, not everyone exposed was injured by it. Many of the workers at sites where the material was handled had no exposure at all and this may be difficult to prove especially if the material was not monitored for or was monitored on a limited basis.
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015, 08:05 by Marlin »

Offline Mounder

  • Heavy User
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
  • Total likes: 36
  • Karma: 15
  • Gender: Male
  • Tell Recruiters to use NukeWorker.com
Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #8 on: Oct 14, 2015, 09:04 »
They don't know about Dose Reconstruction or SEC's or any of it.

I don't know how anyone could not have heard about NIOSH's Dose Reconstruction if there's the faintest history that they ever stepped on a DOE site.  The unions and the lawyers continually troll for folks to come in for free medical testing and be fully informed of their rights for dose reconstruction. Precipitously, once the worker develops some form of cancer, be it prostate, skin, thyroid, etc, a claim will be filed. Many (not all) see jackpot dollar signs of $150k.
I'm not blaming the unions, the lawyers, NIOSH or the internal dosimetry health physicists, but the whole thing is self-feeding and it hits the pockets of the tax payers.  And sadly, because of the excessively high error factor purposely set in favor of the claimants, a lot of payouts are occurring (and by the percentages, many are not actually dose-related.)
I really just feel bad for the small-company public sector workers across this county who worked with chemicals prior to any OSHA rigor, and they don't have anywhere near the same opportunities for compensation.
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015, 09:13 by Marlin »

Offline SloGlo

  • meter reader
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 5749
  • Total likes: 185
  • Karma: 2641
  • Gender: Male
  • trust me, i'm an hp
Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #9 on: Oct 14, 2015, 09:12 »
watching the trailer, aye had too think it was sum watt karen silkwoodesque with probly a pinch of china syndrome tossed inn, i.e. knot four serious consumption by trained professionals.
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

Offline GLW

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #10 on: Oct 14, 2015, 09:18 »
..........I really just feel bad for the small-company public sector workers across this county who worked with chemicals prior to any OSHA rigor, and they don't have anywhere near the same opportunities for compensation.

there is that,....

poor little rich nukeworker,... :-\

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline Tony West

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #11 on: Oct 14, 2015, 09:37 »


Not knowing that workers are struggling with illnesses and not knowing about a program designed to help them can go hand in hand.  That makes sense to me.

As far as capitalism goes, I make my living covering major league sports.  Teams like your Yanks.

Anybody that knows anything about filmmaking knows there is no money in Docs for the most part.  You do them because you are passionate about the topic.

Cold War Patriots support the film. Check the the FB page if you like.

Offline Tony West

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #12 on: Oct 14, 2015, 09:48 »
watching the trailer, aye had too think it was sum watt karen silkwoodesque with probly a pinch of china syndrome tossed inn, i.e. knot four serious consumption by trained professionals.

Indeed.  None of those workers in that trailer were "trained Professionals"  that would be news to them.

Offline Marlin

  • Forum Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 13146
  • Total likes: 534
  • Karma: 5129
  • Gender: Male
  • Stop Global Whining!!!
Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #13 on: Oct 14, 2015, 10:05 »
Cold War Patriots support the film. Check the the FB page if you like.

   Kind of counters your assertion that no one knows about it and they are forgotten. I see cars completely painted with their logos and info here in the Oak Ridge area, I see them in commercials about this very subject.

Sorry we can be a bit of Curmugeons-R-Us and tend to draw out debates and wander from the original topic.

Hello everyone, just wanted to drop in and let you know about my documentary
"The Safe Side Of The Fence"

The film deals with safety in the workplace from the Manhattan Project to today's nuclear workers.

The Energy Employee's Occupational Illness Compensation Program Act is a main theme in the film also.

Check out the trailer on the site Thesafesideofthefence.com

I made this film for older workers who are struggling with the compensation program but some of you may appreciate the history also.

Best,
Tony

    If it comes here, possibly the art theater that is where many films like this are shown here, I will go see it. No promises on my reaction to it as I said I am looking at this through the prism of my experience. I am one of those older workers I cut off and applied asbestos to piping in the engineering spaces of my submarines in the shipyard before it was regulated. No injury but I do have X-Rays to look for it every 5 years or so. Which is worse the radiation exposure or the potential for asbestosis. The doctors tell me the asbestosis but then who told me it was OK to breath the asbestos dust. Same people who ran the Manhattan project the DOD later to be run by the DOE.

 ;)

 :old: [coffee]


Offline GLW

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #14 on: Oct 14, 2015, 10:31 »
....Not knowing that workers are struggling with illnesses and not knowing about a program designed to help them can go hand in hand.  That makes sense to me.....

emotional pandering


...The doctors tell me the asbestosis but then who told me it was OK to breath the asbestos dust. Same people who ran the Manhattan project the DOD later to be run by the DOE.....

no need to apologize, West and Stelzer have been at this for years in the St. Louis area,...

and that's okay excepting they keep harping at Dow or Mallinckrodt or Exelon or "pick a corporate name" while the EPA, DOE and their governmental predecessors sit on their hands for a quarter century plus and order up study after study after study to make work and never ending paychecks for government dullards educated beyond their intelligence, and all the while little to not enough gets done amongst the finger pointing and tongue wagging bureaucrats in charge,...

for gawd's sake these bozos have had MARSSIM for 15+ years and the crap still leaches through the ground or better yet burns underground while yet another study is ordered up,...

FUSRAP, Superfund, no matter, no sense, no nothing,...

but the passionate docudramatists will make their celluloid tearjerkers, build an audience for that big break outside of working for Fox or the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, and use innuendo plus misdirective vocabulary to call down the hatred of the masses upon the corporate you know whos being corporate and let the do gooders at EPA et al slide along with their malfeasant ineptitude,...

and then they come here,...

where we already deal with a hostile perception and a shrinking labor opportunity and try to get us sympatico with the emotico,...

puck that,...

this is nukeworker.com, not nukemaligner.org,...

okay, I'm done now,...most likely,.... [coffee]
« Last Edit: Oct 14, 2015, 10:32 by GLW »

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline Tony West

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #15 on: Oct 14, 2015, 10:44 »
  Kind of counters your assertion that no one knows about it and they are forgotten. I see cars completely painted with their logos and info here in the Oak Ridge area, I see them in commercials about this very subject.

I don't see how.  When I say "no one knows" I'm talking about people that don't have anything to do with this industry.
Not an organization that it's their job to help them.

I didn't know anything about any of this myself.  I met a few workers that were sick and I wanted to help them.
That lead to this doc.

I don't think you can compare what you see in Oak Ridge with it's history, to what people in other cities with less of a roll in nuclear see.

When people ask me what my film is about and I start to tell them.  They never say, "oh, I knew all about that"
It's the opposite.
« Last Edit: Oct 15, 2015, 10:18 by Marlin »

Offline Tony West

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #16 on: Oct 14, 2015, 11:12 »



"where we already deal with a hostile perception and a shrinking labor opportunity"

Oh, You think I'm here for your job.  Why didn't you just say so.  You could have saved those characters.

 You think if these workers get comp'ed it might cost you some work.
I'll leave you to it.

But EPA slide in STL whaaaaa    They a step away from carrying pitchforks to the door. Maybe read that people you quoted.

Offline GLW

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #17 on: Oct 15, 2015, 12:21 »
okay, I'm done now,...most likely,.... [coffee]

eh,... almost likely,...

"where we already deal with a hostile perception and a shrinking labor opportunity"

Oh, You think I'm here for your job.  Why didn't you just say so.  You could have saved those characters.

 You think if these workers get comp'ed it might cost you some work.
I'll leave you to it.

But EPA slide in STL whaaaaa    They a step away from carrying pitchforks to the door. Maybe read that people you quoted.

_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ ____________

"where we already deal with a hostile perception and a shrinking labor opportunity"

Oh, You think I'm here for your job.  Why didn't you just say so.  You could have saved those characters....

misdirective, it's not about my job, it's about an activist troll trying to get an "amen brother" from the insiders, for the consumption of the media masses, under false pretenses,...

kinda like this:

Cold War Patriots support the film. Check the the FB page if you like.

_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ _________

....You think if these workers get comp'ed it might cost you some work.
I'll leave you to it....

rules for radicals hand grenade; no such commentary or anxiety in evidence, and no such root to fruit for the extrapolated outcome exists, two completely unrelated paradigms linked as if they were symbiotic, all to the purpose of establishing a false narrative of a self-serving, disingenuous foundation on the part of your antagonist,...

_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ _

....But EPA slide in STL whaaaaa    They a step away from carrying pitchforks to the door. Maybe read that people you quoted.

Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions,...

not this people,... [coffee]
« Last Edit: Oct 15, 2015, 12:32 by GLW »

been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline SloGlo

  • meter reader
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 5749
  • Total likes: 185
  • Karma: 2641
  • Gender: Male
  • trust me, i'm an hp
Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #18 on: Oct 15, 2015, 07:39 »
Indeed.  None of those workers in that trailer were "trained Professionals"  that would be news to them.

aye was referencing yore audience, knot the subject's players.
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

Offline Tony West

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #19 on: Oct 15, 2015, 10:04 »
eh,... almost likely,...

_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ ____________

misdirective, it's not about my job, it's about an activist troll trying to get an "amen brother" from the insiders, for the consumption of the media masses, under false pretenses,...

kinda like this:

_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ _________

rules for radicals hand grenade; no such commentary or anxiety in evidence, and no such root to fruit for the extrapolated outcome exists, two completely unrelated paradigms linked as if they were symbiotic, all to the purpose of establishing a false narrative of a self-serving, disingenuous foundation on the part of your antagonist,...

_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ _

Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions,...

not this people,... [coffee]

The "inside" are those interviews inside the union hall.  The banner on the wall behind them along with the labor day parade footage should be a dead give away.  But........if you are anti union.....yes......you would be on the other side of the table from me.  In this film or outside of it.

Which plant do you work at?  Just curious.

Offline Tony West

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #20 on: Oct 15, 2015, 10:06 »
aye was referencing yore audience, knot the subject's players.


Only they tend to be the same so far.

Offline Tony West

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #21 on: Oct 15, 2015, 10:17 »
   Kind of counters your assertion that no one knows about it and they are forgotten. I see cars completely painted with their logos and info here in the Oak Ridge area, I see them in commercials about this very subject.

Sorry we can be a bit of Curmugeons-R-Us and tend to draw out debates and wander from the original topic.

    If it comes here, possibly the art theater that is where many films like this are shown here, I will go see it. No promises on my reaction to it as I said I am looking at this through the prism of my experience. I am one of those older workers I cut off and applied asbestos to piping in the engineering spaces of my submarines in the shipyard before it was regulated. No injury but I do have X-Rays to look for it every 5 years or so. Which is worse the radiation exposure or the potential for asbestosis. The doctors tell me the asbestosis but then who told me it was OK to breath the asbestos dust. Same people who ran the Manhattan project the DOD later to be run by the DOE.

 ;)

 :old: [coffee]




Fair enough.  Working on Knoxville Jan 20, the family owned Halls Cinema 7

Offline Marlin

  • Forum Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 13146
  • Total likes: 534
  • Karma: 5129
  • Gender: Male
  • Stop Global Whining!!!
Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #22 on: Oct 15, 2015, 10:30 »
I don't see how.  When I say "no one knows" I'm talking about people that don't have anything to do with this industry.
Not an organization that it's their job to help them.

I didn't know anything about any of this myself.  I met a few workers that were sick and I wanted to help them.
That lead to this doc.

I don't think you can compare what you see in Oak Ridge with it's history, to what people in other cities with less of a roll in nuclear see.

When people ask me what my film is about and I start to tell them.  They never say, "oh, I knew all about that"
It's the opposite.


   I currently live in Oak Ridge but have worked two other DOE sites an Army Corp superfund site and a privately owned uranium processing facility. All knew about the programs and even the private site out in the boonies knew about and received benefits for their injuries. I don't doubt your experience with those you have spoken to but it does not match my experience. Oh I have worked 26 commercial nuclear power plants but there is not the same problem there as most were built as OSHA was being implemented and did not work under the shield of secrecy for the sake of national security.

Offline GLW

Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #23 on: Oct 15, 2015, 11:41 »
.....But........if you are anti union.....yes......you would be on the other side of the table from me.  In this film or outside of it.....

rules for radicals hand grenade; no such commentary in evidence, and no such root to fruit for the extrapolated accusation exists, all to the purpose of establishing a false narrative of a self-serving, disingenuous foundation on the part of your antagonist,...

learn this at SIUE or somewhere else?


been there, dun that,... the doormat to hell does not read "welcome", the doormat to hell reads "it's just business"

Offline Dave Warren

  • Radiological Engineer
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 2909
  • Total likes: 16
  • Karma: 1561
  • Gender: Male
  • Cubs vs. White Sox in the Series this year.
Re: New documentary about nuclear worker safety
« Reply #24 on: Oct 15, 2015, 12:05 »
I spent a good 4 years at Fernald and there were several lawsuits filed by workers and the trades. If you want some good info from there, research a group called FRESH (Fernald Residents for Environmental Safety and Health). They fought the good fight and got a lot of medical help from the DOE. There have been several of the old schoolers that spent 30 years there, that have passed away from cancer and other types of killers. This may give you some good insight, if you haven't looked into Fernald already.

 


NukeWorker ™ is a registered trademark of NukeWorker.com ™, LLC © 1996-2021 All rights reserved.
All material on this Web Site, including text, photographs, graphics, code and/or software, are protected by international copyright/trademark laws and treaties. Unauthorized use is not permitted. You may not modify, copy, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit or distribute, in any manner, the material on this web site or any portion of it. Doing so will result in severe civil and criminal penalties, and will be prosecuted to the maximum extent possible under the law.
Privacy Statement | Terms of Use | Code of Conduct | Spam Policy | Advertising Info | Contact Us | Forum Rules | Password Problem?