NEC Admin Issue, any advice?

[GLW]

Never trust anyone wearing khaki. Remember that.

 

Never trust anyone who tells you not trust anyone wearing khaki.

 

we are quickly running out of people to trust,...

[Rerun]

Lol

[spekkio]

OMG, now you're a sea lawyer!!!!

No, I just understand that an agreement is an agreement, regardless of whether or not it exists on paper. The absence of a written agreement simply makes the case harder to prove in court, but not insurmountable.

the case presented from your google search is in the jurisdiction of Oklahoma; jurisdiction is important, witnesses are important, evidence such as receipts for goods on the same day as the handshake agreement are important,...

You will find similar laws in virtually every jurisdiction. I'm not going to do your HW for you here; you originally stated that people cannot be held accountable for agreements unless they are in writing, and you are 100% wrong.

the OPs jurisdiction is the USN,...

I said quite clearly that IF the OP were not in the Navy, the people who misled him would be liable for making an agreement they can't uphold. I acknowledge that this is the Navy, which is why I said that his leadership failed him.

by your legal deduction and assessment of the leadership fail at NPTU, the OP should be able to go to JAG and sue for his billet, and as a result of the behaviour unbecoming an officer and a gentleman, the XO should be canned and/or dealt a career ending FITREP, and the MCPO at least one lousy Chief EVAL,...

if the OP cannot acquire the billet because the billet did not or does not exist, then the OP should have legal and enforceable redress under the UCMJ or civil law or whichever jurisdiction applies (perhaps the State of New York?),...

that would all be the proper, legal recourse to the OP?!?!?!,...

(I don't think so, and I suspect the JAG would back up my deduction),....

OP could attempt to file an IG report against the command at NPTU for this, particularly since he was coaxed into reenlisting under the pretext that he would stay at prototype as a staff instructor. I'm not sure whether that would go anywhere, that would be very dependent on what (if any) records were kept about OP's discussions with the XO/MCPO, and failing that what they said in subsequent interviews. If the IG found anything of substance, then the write-up would make it into the XO's record and he would not screen for subsequent statutory or administrative promotions.

leadership is innate, management is taught,...

They mean virtually the same thing, particularly in the context which I used the word. That's your lookup. Now you're trying to be the sea-lawyer.

[GLW]

......Now you're trying to be the sea-lawyer.

sure, but that's my nature,...

So,…
Let me state that I stand by my first assessment, to wit (in many more words than originally posted):

The OP perceived from the MCPO and the XO that IF he qualified as an instructor he would be an instructor, he would be a SPU, he would stay on at NPTU and he would achieve his secondary goal (IF STA-21 did not pan out) of being an instructor and gaining the NEC he coveted,…

I would be willing to bet several dollars to several donuts that the MCPO and the XO never made or implied such a deal, I would posit that at the most liberal interpretation of the scenario; that the MCPO and the XO made notice to or implied to the OP that IF the OP achieved the aforementioned quals THEN MAYBE the OP could qualify for and attain a SPU billet (NoN et al),…

Now as to the OP; the more invested the OP makes himself into the process, the higher the expectation of complete delivery of all goals as envisioned by the OP,…

As to the MCPO and XO; while contemporaneously dealing with dozens upon dozens of trainees, SPU wannabes, ELT wannabes, AcBoard candidates, STA-21 candidates et al, a hard charging and demonstrated self-reliant sailor sea warrior such as the OP, does not require (nor desire) obligatory follow ups (aka babysitting) vis a vis the OP’s perception of input versus delivery of reward,…
So IF some persons consider a failure to babysit as a failure of leadership I find that paradigm unfoundable and dam disrespectful,…

Blueshirts in the NNPP, who are candidates for STA-21, who are demonstrated performers in the NNPP, who are expected to be able to support themselves on the economy and comport their legal, financial, professional, military, personal and ethical venues maturely and in a manner not to bring discredit to themselves or the Naval Service DO NOT NEED TO BE BABYSAT, they are men and women, not girls and boys,…

Directly to the point:

The OP signed a written contract (reenlistment), IF the OP wanted to be assured he would be a SPU, THEN “SPU” should have been in that contract (get it in writing, check your documents, lessons learned et al),…

So, the OP took too much for granted, and then the OP was distressed, the folks at nukeworker.com who have been there and dun that advised the OP to take this as a teachable moment, that even the smartest and most motivated can lapse into complacency, and complacency breeds buzzkill, ergo: get it in writing, check your documents, lessons learned et al, but they did not offer solace to the OP to BLAME the Chiefs and the Officers for not holding the OPs hand,…

THAT perception came from an Officer,…

So, who demonstrates sincere respect for the OP and what he has achieved to date:

The been there and dun thats coaching him on how to better be accountable to himself in the future?!?!?!?

OR

the O-ganger who deigns scant respect for the blueshirt’s ability or accountability to properly exercise self-determination?!?!?!?

Complacency is a state of mind that exists only in retrospective: it has to be shattered before being ascertained.

V. Nabokov

Also:

You can't fix the Navy, it's not broke.
You can enjoy the ride.

geez, I'm not even enamored of khakis and here I am supporting them against one of their own,...

almost forgot (sic) for beercourt,...

[GLW]

 
...I said quite clearly that IF the OP were not in the Navy, the people who misled him would be liable for making an agreement they can't uphold. I acknowledge that this is the Navy, which is why I said that his leadership failed him....

you'll have to identify where you stated that quite clearly,...

I do not see it,...

[Tylor]

I appreciate all the inputs, as far as the word of my 8XO and Plant Master Chief, I went to a career development board shortly after I qualified as an instructor, I voiced my concerns about not knowing how long I would be in NY, and they both assured me that I would absolutely be staying in New York as a staff pickup if I wasn't chosen for STA-21.

Since this was done in a career development board, I assumed with such a definitive statement that there was something in writing, and I was excited. I was also told that I would have to re-enlist to be an instructor. I also would have to re-enlist if I was picked up STA-21, so I re-enlisted, as both options required it.

I learned a valuable lesson, get it in writing.

Most of this doesn't address my question though. Now that I have been sent to a submarine, I want to make sure I have recognition for the work I put in. I made an effort to get all my quals in writing while I was there, including a transfer eval.

The actual question I have is how do I now get my instructor NEC if the CCC tells me it's not going to happen. If I am legitimately unqualified for the NEC then something tells me I was unqualified to be an instructor, and that the hundreds of students I helped qualify should be recalled from the fleet, and I should be court marshalled. Something tells me that isn't the case..

[GLW]

I appreciate all the inputs,....

well dam, spekkio is correct, Officers and Chiefs are not to be trusted and they do collude to lie for short term personal gain,...

I am wrong,...

so much for assuming there is such a thing as conduct becoming an officer and a gentleman,...

so the OP can refer back to the earlier PM, perhaps you can get that re-enlisment voided and just cut your way loose form the Navy two years or so earlier than they currently expect you to EAOS,...

something tells me there will not be court martials or unqualified watchstanders anytime soon,...

just same ole, same ole,...

[Tylor]

Haha, well I haven't lost faith in the Navy yet. I still love my job and I don't regret re-enlisting. I got orders to a great boat out of San diego, but explaining my situation is always a fun story. I really just want my NEC.

Luckily I just got ahold of the plant master chief, who's since retired and he put me in contact with the current pant master chief, so hopefully I'm in good hands. Thank you for all your help, this forum has helped me out with a lot of my questions over the years.

[GLW]

Haha, well I haven't lost faith in the Navy yet. I still love my job and I don't regret re-enlisting. I got orders to a great boat out of San diego, but explaining my situation is always a fun story. I really just want my NEC.

Luckily I just got ahold of the plant master chief, who's since retired and he put me in contact with the current pant master chief, so hopefully I'm in good hands. Thank you for all your help, this forum has helped me out with a lot of my questions over the years.

 

[MMM]

I appreciate all the inputs, as far as the word of my 8XO and Plant Master Chief, I went to a career development board shortly after I qualified as an instructor, I voiced my concerns about not knowing how long I would be in NY, and they both assured me that I would absolutely be staying in New York as a staff pickup if I wasn't chosen for STA-21.

Since this was done in a career development board, I assumed with such a definitive statement that there was something in writing, and I was excited. I was also told that I would have to re-enlist to be an instructor. I also would have to re-enlist if I was picked up STA-21, so I re-enlisted, as both options required it.

I learned a valuable lesson, get it in writing.

Most of this doesn't address my question though. Now that I have been sent to a submarine, I want to make sure I have recognition for the work I put in. I made an effort to get all my quals in writing while I was there, including a transfer eval.

The actual question I have is how do I now get my instructor NEC if the CCC tells me it's not going to happen. If I am legitimately unqualified for the NEC then something tells me I was unqualified to be an instructor, and that the hundreds of students I helped qualify should be recalled from the fleet, and I should be court marshalled. Something tells me that isn't the case..

Receiving the instructor NEC at NPTU is based on the billet as well as the qual. You never had the billet, so you don't get the NEC, hopefully it showed up on your transfer eval.

The T-10 does have allowances for allowing qualified students to sign qual cards (it's been a couple years, so I don't remember them exactly).

[DDMurray]

There is a form to get an NEC.  Fill it out and route it up your chain of command.  Surely somebody at NPTU (khaki or not) remembers the career review board, so if you need a statement for your NEC package, that may be useful.  BTW, unless you radio'd the checkouts you signed off, there should not be an issue with any qual cards you signed.  Not having the NEC should not prevent you from going to NNPTC for shore duty as long as you meet all the requirements.  Qualifying EWS is probably the most important thing you can do to earn an instructor billet at NNPTC.

[Rerun]

Derek,

Don't they document career review boards?

[spekkio]

sure, but that's my nature,...

So,…
Let me state that I stand by my first assessment, to wit (in many more words than originally posted):

The OP perceived from the MCPO and the XO that IF he qualified as an instructor he would be an instructor, he would be a SPU, he would stay on at NPTU and he would achieve his secondary goal (IF STA-21 did not pan out) of being an instructor and gaining the NEC he coveted,…

I would be willing to bet several dollars to several donuts that the MCPO and the XO never made or implied such a deal, I would posit that at the most liberal interpretation of the scenario; that the MCPO and the XO made notice to or implied to the OP that IF the OP achieved the aforementioned quals THEN MAYBE the OP could qualify for and attain a SPU billet (NoN et al),…

Neither you nor I were there during the conversations. OP is claiming that the promise was much more concrete. Kind of like how PERS-42 keeps doling out homeport guarantees, but then doesn't honor them.

As to the MCPO and XO; while contemporaneously dealing with dozens upon dozens of trainees, SPU wannabes, ELT wannabes, AcBoard candidates, STA-21 candidates et al, a hard charging and demonstrated self-reliant sailor sea warrior such as the OP, does not require (nor desire) obligatory follow ups (aka babysitting) vis a vis the OP’s perception of input versus delivery of reward,…
So IF some persons consider a failure to babysit as a failure of leadership I find that paradigm unfoundable and dam disrespectful,…

Blueshirts in the NNPP, who are candidates for STA-21, who are demonstrated performers in the NNPP, who are expected to be able to support themselves on the economy and comport their legal, financial, professional, military, personal and ethical venues maturely and in a manner not to bring discredit to themselves or the Naval Service DO NOT NEED TO BE BABYSAT, they are men and women, not girls and boys,…

Directly to the point:

The OP signed a written contract (reenlistment), IF the OP wanted to be assured he would be a SPU, THEN “SPU” should have been in that contract (get it in writing, check your documents, lessons learned et al),…

Again, this has nothing to do with babysitting and everything to do with individuals being mindful of the responsibility that comes with their authority. Namely, when someone who is an E-9 or O-4 says "I can make this happen," whatever this is, someone who has been in the Navy for about a year is inclined to believe them. It's a shame that OP probably can't seek accountability for this, partly because there's no record of it and partly because the senior ranking members will be given the benefit of the doubt.

What OP should have asked is how the SPU process normally works before signing a continued service agreement... but this goes back to OP not being around long enough in the Navy to know better, and his leadership not correctly guiding him through the process. This is not any knock against 'blueshirt' thing; junior sailors and officers need to be properly mentored.

well dam, spekkio is correct, Officers and Chiefs are not to be trusted and they do collude to lie for short term personal gain,...

You have me confused for Redux. I don't suspect malice, just shortcomings.

you'll have to identify where you stated that quite clearly,...

My post at 1800 the other day.

[Druid]

Receiving the instructor NEC at NPTU is based on the billet as well as the qual. You never had the billet, so you don't get the NEC, hopefully it showed up on your transfer eval.

That's what NAVPERS 18068F says. Completion of BIT and transfer to a billet. Note 2. "...may be awarded this NEC code upon transfer to instructor billets in these UICs."

Interesting word choice of "may" and not "shall". It's not like "shall" isn't used liberally through out the manual. Then again, I'd make a piss poor sea lawyer.

D

[GLW]

.....My post at 1800 the other day.

I looked at it, clear to you 'cause you wrote it, not clear otherwise,...

...Again, this has nothing to do with babysitting and everything to do with individuals being mindful of the responsibility that comes with their authority. Namely, when someone who is an E-9 or O-4 says "I can make this happen," whatever this is, someone who has been in the Navy for about a year is inclined to believe them. It's a shame that OP probably can't seek accountability for this, partly because there's no record of it and partly because the senior ranking members will be given the benefit of the doubt.

What OP should have asked is how the SPU process normally works before signing a continued service agreement... but this goes back to OP not being around long enough in the Navy to know better, and his leadership not correctly guiding him through the process. This is not any knock against 'blueshirt' thing; junior sailors and officers need to be properly mentored....

Well, as more details are pulled into the discussion (conceding the details are from only one perspective) the positions shift in spite of the absolutes:

An E-9 and an O-4 promising to deliver what they cannot guarantee during a formal review board is not a shortcoming, it’s a lie,…

There are far too many years of khaki and total Naval Service represented in those two personas to dismiss what transpired as a “shortcoming”, if that is a shortcoming, the USN harbors some seriously flawed ethics,…

I know something of good mentoring by Masterchiefs and O-gangers, I was privileged to be well mentored by no fewer than four Masterchiefs during my eight year, three month and six day stint of active obligated service,…

I was also singled out for “special attention” by one E-7,…

Fortuitously, Providence put an E-9 into the retribution path of the one E-7, and I was spared the “special attention” of said E-7,…

I was well mentored by two O-5s, two O-4s, and singled out for retribution by one O-4,…

Fortuitously, Providence put an O-5 into the retribution path of the one O-4, and I was spared the unwarranted wrath of said O-4,…

It’s not drama, quite the opposite, it’s just the USN, and I tended to be a high profile type of ELT, even though I did not try to be, it just worked out that way, never profiled for lack of competence or military bearing, always the oddball “where did that come from?” stuff,…

But I digress (because I like to tell stories),…

I still fall to the default that CPOs and O-gangers are the good guys, that blueshirts, particularly NNPP blueshirts (‘cause I was conventional before I was nuke, and I know the “other Navy”), that NNPP blueshirts need to take ownership of things like signing contracts to re-enlist (particularly as re-enlistment contracts are NOT the blueshirt’s first go around with the Needs of the Navy),…

If the OP was a nub teenage sailor who had been in the USN for about a year maybe intense mentoring (known to me as spoonfeeding) would be warranted,…

The OP has been in the Navy for more like three years, has lived on the economy in Upstate New York for over a year, the OP is more than 21YO so the OP can live on the economy AND drink in the bars on Caroline Street, and somehow the OP has comported himself well and dignified like, with no disqualifying slip ups or behaviours,…

The OP got complacent and did not get it in writing,…

Anybody who lives in New York knows if it ain’t in writing it ain’t, this place ain’t no backwoods Carolina spit and a handshake place to dwell, it’s f’in New York,…

On the plus side, the OP displays a commendable attitude and the ability to own his past and his future and persevere without lapsing into bitter self-pity,…

The OP iza helluva guy,…

You are too spekkio, you just like to argue too much,….

[Rerun]

Hey I have no issue with spekkios opinions or arguing or whatever. At least he thinks which to me is the overall objective. My take is this, spekkio says Mike I have a deal but I can't sign it at this time but believe I can later. I can probably accept that because of individual trust. I never trust anyone simply due to position and never have. It's worked out pretty good.

[spekkio]

Well, as more details are pulled into the discussion (conceding the details are from only one perspective) the positions shift in spite of the absolutes:

An E-9 and an O-4 promising to deliver what they cannot guarantee during a formal review board is not a shortcoming, it’s a lie,…

There are far too many years of khaki and total Naval Service represented in those two personas to dismiss what transpired as a “shortcoming”, if that is a shortcoming, the USN harbors some seriously flawed ethics,…

I wrote 'shortcoming' because I don't think that the XO and Master Chief woke up saying "today I am going to dupe someone into re-enlisting by making them a false promise to be a prototype instructor." On the other hand, I think that they had every intention of trying to keep OP as an instructor, but failed to communicate the amount of uncertainty that existed in the process.

The OP has been in the Navy for more like three years, has lived on the economy in Upstate New York for over a year, the OP is more than 21YO so the OP can live on the economy AND drink in the bars on Caroline Street, and somehow the OP has comported himself well and dignified like, with no disqualifying slip ups or behaviours,…

All of that is irrelevant. OP is inexperienced with the Navy detailing/personnel process, regardless of age or previous life experience. That is the part that requires mentorship, and that is where his XO and MCPO failed him.

[MMM]

The rest of his chain of command failed him as well. Someone should have realized the 8XO and PMC only make the recommendations, nobody on site has the authority to make someone a JSI. I'm kind of surprised his LCC let him go to BIT School without preliminary orders.

[Samabby]

This tells me a lot about the future for this young man:]

" Haha, well I haven't lost faith in the Navy yet. I still love my job and I don't regret re-enlisting. I got orders to a great boat out of San diego, but explaining my situation is always a fun story. I really just want my NEC."

Good luck, son.

[spekkio]

The rest of his chain of command failed him as well. Someone should have realized the 8XO and PMC only make the recommendations, nobody on site has the authority to make someone a JSI. I'm kind of surprised his LCC let him go to BIT School without preliminary orders.

Someone should have realized that the staff was trying to get an extra body on the instructor watchbill to make their lives easier without going through the proper channels to also ensure OP was selected as a SPU.

It sounds like the staff got OP to go as far as they could while he was on hold, and no one took the time to make sure that PERS was on board with the plan. PMC and XO probably figured that the staff was doing the right thing and moved onto handling closer alligators.

This should also serve a lesson to OP: When you don't have orders to a billet and someone says "Let's try to get you on the watchbill...," your spidey-sense should tingle.

[Tylor]

The T-10 does have allowances for allowing qualified students to sign qual cards (it's been a couple years, so I don't remember them exactly).

So the PTM at S8G (Plant training manual) says that qualified students can sign for preliminary watches, under certain specific conditions. Qualified students are not allowed by the PTM to sign anything else. Not really sure what the T-10 is, or what it says, but the guidance for training at S8G was the PTM.

Seems that the recurring theme here is that I should have gotten it in writing. I'm a little relieved that I did go so far out of my way to get it into my transfer eval, as that should help. Thank you for all the advice, and for now I'm gonna focus on being the best submarine electrician I can, and take this as a learning experience.

-EMN2 (SU)

[spekkio]

So the PTM at S8G (Plant training manual) says that qualified students can sign for preliminary watches, under certain specific conditions. Qualified students are not allowed by the PTM to sign anything else. Not really sure what the T-10 is, or what it says, but the guidance for training at S8G was the PTM.

Seems that the recurring theme here is that I should have gotten it in writing. I'm a little relieved that I did go so far out of my way to get it into my transfer eval, as that should help. Thank you for all the advice, and for now I'm gonna focus on being the best submarine electrician I can, and take this as a learning experience.

-EMN2 (SU)

Where are you headed?

[Tylor]

I've been on the USS Alexandria SSN 757 out of San Diego for about 2 months.

[spekkio]

Well at least you got the best duty station in the fleet - San Diego. Enjoy it.

[MMM]

Sorry, I meant PTM. The T-10 is the equivalent of the EDM. Like I said, it's been a couple years.