Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]

[dav8]

The best way to prepare for nuke school is via math, physics, and chemistry. Always pay attention in class, do homework, ask questions, and most importantly write everything down. The attrition rate is 50%. If you don't make it, you only have to do 4 yrs. and at least you'll have a rate.

Unless you went through the program 20 years ago, the attrition rate is nowhere near 50%.  More like 8%.  They have been working hard to keep it low because they need people in the fleet.

[RCLCPO]

Yes, Nuke attrition is down to <15% (about 7% academic, the rest due to stupidity).  A lot of this is due to the constraints imposed on those wanting the program.  The Navy finally got smart and realized that if they screened the applicants for only those with a high chance of completing the program, they could save some money by cutting losses.

As to being a SPU, there are a couple of other benefits.  First, it gives you a chance to become the technical experts that most folks in the fleet don't take the time to do (gives you a chance to screw things up without scramming the plant at sea, too).  And second, for a career sailor, it means retirement after only 2 sea tours vice 3 for a 20 year career.  This way, one can retire from shore duty (at least that's the way it's worked out for me).

[20 Years Gone]

   Attrition is way down over the last several years, but I disagree that it is because we have raised our entrance standards... Rather, it is because we almost never dis-enroll anyone, for anything.  Back in the day of the 50% attrition, it was pretty easy to get dis-enrolled... especially if you had a problem with integrity.  Cheating on an exam, or lying to your section advisor was a quick ticket out of the program and directly to the fleet.  Nowadays, we do have students who cheat, and get caught, and so long as they are repentant and up-front about it, they go see the captain and are retained.  Perhaps this is a better way.... Can you be taught integrity?  Or at least have a higher standard instilled in you once you've reached "adulthood" (18-22)?  Academically, some students who would have never made it through back then do make it now... Re-comps, for example, are almost automatic.  And should you fail the re-comp, you still have a great chance for a follow on ack-board.
   So, are we better off now than we used to be?  Well, several things are in motion... One, the economy in recent years has been down. Two, enlisment and retention bonuses are huge.  Three, there are war zones where you can re-enlist tax free, always a big incentive.  Finally, the pipeline has pumped many more people into the fleet, so manning is up, and duty rotations are down, causing quality of life to be up... (follow me?) Then end result is that retention has climbed, demand for nukes is down somewhat, and we can be more choosey, and get our yearly quotas filled earlier.  However, I don't think this results in a better product to the fleet. 
   Are we actually demanding higher ASVAB scores, higher NFQT scores, and less waivers, or are we just taking the same folks we always have, (don't get me wrong, very intelligent folks), and filling our quotas earlier, and then taking what's left and sending them to other jobs in the Navy?

[RCLCPO]

One of the most frustrating things about being an instructor at NNPTC, and at a prototype, was the "you're a pump, not a filter" paradigm.  That part of the pipeline is still intact.  The amount of documentation required to get someone out of the program is measured by the cubic foot, or if the pile weighs as much as the student does.

As for the admission, yes, we are being more selective.  Every week I see kids get shot down, who, just a few years ago, would have gotten in with no problem.  Finding an applicant who wants to be a Navy Nuke isn't too difficult, but finding one who doesn't need a waiver for something is almost like finding a unicorn.  Some of our nuclear recruiting success is based on the economy, but most is due to the high price of college together with parents who had no plan whatsoever to pay for their kid's education.  The STAR option, and other re-enlistment bonuses, are also a big factor.  A $45,000.00 bonus for 2 more years of service sounds like a lot to an 18 year old kid.

As for integrity, I think the old way was better.  If a kid lied to me, intentionally, then it was game over.  Now, with the re-tread policy, I'm glad I'm not at sea any longer.  I don't think the kind of integrity nuclear power demands can be taught after the individual has joined.  Having children of my own, though, I can understand that an otherwise smart kid can be really stupid if given the chance.

Good thing I'm retiring soon.

[Transuranic Trip]

Scary thing to hear the integrity thing has been easing up (if indeed it has) I got out almost 10 years ago... Seems like being light on integrity is a slipery slope. It's not like there were no nukes when the integrity was higher, it's just that the Navy ensured they did everything they could to minimize faked maintenance, record logs, etc... no way in he** I'd want to be in Reactor Controls Div if they began laxing on integrity.... Integrity with the big things starts with integrity on the small things.

[Roll Tide]

I remember the way integrity was handled on the sub in 1994. We had a nub EM forge a signature on a checkout. He was disqualified AEA and become a FSA (assisting in the crew's mess) the next day. Upon return to port, he was taken off the ship and never worked another day as a Navy nuke.

I believe this was after standards had been relaxed from the ancient days in NPS / NPTU when I went through with 50% pipeline attrition. I don't think the standard eased in the fleet (but I would appreciate some current data.) The training pipeline seems to be the transition from the worldly standards (see Babylon) to Rickover standards. I think I preferred boot camp as the transition point for higher standards.

[Fermi2]

I was wondering if any current NPS instructor could tell me what the current state of NPS is?

For instance, how many sections are there?

How are they divided up? (when I was in we had mixed sections, some guys with lower scores teamed with guys with higher scores, they had letter designations like MM F)

What's the current graduation rate?

And what plant are they teaching?


I bring this up because I'm in a yahoo group that's made up of former Navy nukes. I mentioned we're starting to get some of the guys from the current generation of nukes applying for jobs at my nuke plant, and we're finding out most are dumber than a bag of hammers.  It's getting rather difficult to recruit from the Navy so we're hiring more and more non Navy nukes.

Mike

[CharlieRock]

As a reminder some specific aspects of the nuclear propulsion pipeline are CONFIDENTIAL and almost all details of it are NOFORN. 

[taterhead]

I bring this up because I'm in a yahoo group that's made up of former Navy nukes. I mentioned we're starting to get some of the guys from the current generation of nukes applying for jobs at my nuke plant, and we're finding out most are dumber than a bag of hammers. 

Wouldn't the guys you are hiring today be NPS graduates from 6,8,10 + years ago?

Another thought...if someone has been out of NPS for  6,8,10+ yrs, then the fault of their nuclear stupidity is likely the fault of the Continuing Training Programs aboard ships and subs.

I have some friends at NPS and prototype..I'm gonna ask.

[Fermi2]

Sigh,

You don't have to explain to me about NOFORN, hgowever the plant they teach isn't considered NOFORN.

taterhead, it was 6 years ago they changed the standards for the program.

4 of the guys we interviewed in our last class were guys who got out on hardship discharges. Compared to the guys we interviewed say 4 years ago they were dumber than Dog++++

Mike

[CharlieRock]

I wasn't trying to imply that the DIRECT answers to any of your questions were NOFORN or CONFIDENTIAL but any elaboration could be.

[sefrick]

Quite is kept... we had a MM2 report to my boat who made it very clear that he did NOT pass power school (failed comp, GPA below 2.50). He was "omni-domnied". He  graduated about 3 or 4 years ago and continued the pipeline.

[Fermi2]

I wasn't trying to imply that the DIRECT answers to any of your questions were NOFORN or CONFIDENTIAL but any elaboration could be.

Ok. No problem.

Mike

[Marlin]

   My-my, how times change. The bottom third of my MMA school class (71-2) was dropped even if they did pass. Three traffic tickets and you were out. Miss the bus three times at prototype and you were out. Only about 10% of those that enlisted as nukes when I did, made it through the program. We lost a few to batteries of tests in bootcamp, we lost them in "A" school (30%), we lost them to academics in NPS, and we lost them to drug exemptions, including President Carter's son Chip.
   Now just a few years later I can remember saying the same things Fermi2 is saying about our new nukes on the boats in the mid 70's. The draft ended in 75 but the threat of being drafted lessened a couple of years before. Manning on the boats was so bad that after a drug bust on one sub in Norfolk, a third of the crew went drug exempt, they were forgiven and dragged back to the boat. Without them, the boat could not even man a minimum port and starboard watch rotation (most were nukes).
   For you non-squid types the drug exemption program was a way to confess your drug use prior to testing, or arrest, and be forgiven provided it did not happen again. Initially the exemption was a automatic drop from the nuclear power program but as time went on it was just a way a way to get amnesty as the Navy implemented drug testing in the 70's.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.....

[shayne]

Mike,
 
I can tell you how the program has declined IMHO at NY prototype from 1998 to 2001.  Mostly because the nuke program wasn't filling the bullets needed at the sea commands.  The solution by the training program was to eliminate the attrition due to academics.  The reason, "if they qualified to be in the program, they can make it through it.  The students may not be able to learn everything they are required to know through the training program, they can learn it on the ship." That was the reason for changing the training pipeline as I was leaving.  However I believe no one told the ships that they are now required to get the students up to nuclear standards.  The ships were already under manned and now they are required to upgrade these new nuclear operators to minimum par?  Well the ships don't have time or resources to perform the necessary training.
 
The staffing levels at prototype had also declined.  They started to supplement the staff with computers at S8G in my last few years there.  Most of the systems checkouts were done on the computers, similar to our web based training at Fermi.  The staff was there to review the checkout results, spot check few things, then sign the qual card.
 
The Navy program continues to try to fix the staffing issues at the initial pipeline instead of the other end.  They have now idea why most of the good operators are getting out after 6-8 years, even after they offer $100k bonuses.

[mike.y7281]

hi, i'm currently about to graduate nps and here's the scoop on my class (0406), before the comprehensive exam. i doubt any of this is classified, since at graduation, i think they give class statistics.

10 sections (3 em, 2 et, 5 mm). the previous class had 11 sections, so it varies by how many people have their clearance when class begins.

the class started out with about 320 students, got as high as 330, and now is currently about 295. people are rolled in and out (more out than in, of course) due to academic or disciplinary reasons such as failing out or going to mast.

each section is formed through the mixing of the "A" school classes, i.e. if people were in the same class in "A" school, they'll most likely be in the same power school section. each section remains intact throughout the 6 months of training.

i think we're learning the s3g-3 plant.

hope this helps.

[shayne]

 

Attrition is way down over the last several years, but I disagree that it is because we have raised our entrance standards... 
 
So, are we better off now than we used to be?   
   
However, I don't think this results in a better product to the fleet.   
   

 
I have been curious to the feedback from the Fleet.  With the drop in Attrition in the program, are the ships getting the quality nuclear operators?  Is the ship spending the necessary time and resources trying to get the individual up to the old standards?
 
I never went back to a ship after seeing the changes in the training program, so I'm out of touch with how the fleet feels about the new nuclear training program.

[java]

I was also graduating NPS class 0406, (ET) and just to let you know it was a combination of S5W and S3G material... I actually thought it was quite confusing as our course material seemed to swap plant specs around back and forth like it was nothing... I assume that is because civilians who have never actually seen a plant write the course material...

[java]

Oh, and at prototype... it's not just about how well you do your job... If they people with you don't do their part and aren't ready for lectures (not having the prerequisite checkouts...) then you can look forward to saturday morning lectures, 14 hour days, and possibly even lectures at say 3 am friday morning... followed by the regular 7 am start of the day...
 
I don't know about Charleston, but up here in Ballston Spa there is a bunkhouse on the site for people who work extra hours to sleep in once in a while so they don't have to drive home.

[shayne]

Oh, and at prototype... it's not just about how well you do your job... If they people with you don't do their part and arn't ready for lectures (not having the prerequesite (sp?) checkouts...) then you can look forward to saturday morning lectures, 14 hour days, and possibly even lectures at say 3 am friday morning... followed by the regular 7 am start of the day...

I don't know about Charleston, but up here in Ballston Spa there is a bunkhouse on the site for people who work extra hours to sleep in once in a while so they don't have to drive home.

It is nice that the program is starting to make the students accountable for their qualifications.  During my staff tour there, it seemed like the program focus was to make the staff solely responsible to see each student qualify.  I'm not familiar with the corrective actions (punishment) or your current working hours to have an opinion on if it is the right approach.  I found that most students that struggled with prototype didn't really apply themselves or take the initiative to find the correct help when needed.  Every student should know what is required to complete their qualifications and if they don't, they need to talk with the Staff Advisor, TPO, or the Training Coordinator to provide guidance.

Well the bunkhouse is a new concept that wasn't there a few years ago.

[Fermi2]

Hell java, you haven't seen a real plant yet, only a glorified start up source

Mike

[Fermi2]

Idaho Falls had a bunkhouse, trouble is half the time it was closed because of the "crabs". That only meant the problem children had to ride the bus between their mando hours.

Mike

[shayne]

Idaho Falls had a bunkhouse, trouble is half the time it was closed because of the "crabs". That only meant the problem children had to ride the bus between their mando hours.

Mike

Stayed there only once, just before by final board.  I remember thinking about all the hot water we generated at S5G, but no hot water at the bunkhouse to shower with.

[CharlieRock]

Actually Java most of the folks who 'write' the course curriculum are EOOW (and NAVSEA 08 Engineer) qualified, sometimes on multiple platforms.  What do you think that all those CTEs/NPEs do after they leave prototype? Many of the T manuals are, of course, redacted from analysis documents or more basic academic works and the 'authors' are simply organizing and simplifying it.  Believe it or not, the NPS 'textbooks' are actually wonderfully simple compared to the source documents.

[shayne]

More than likely you will continue to reference those T manuals long after you reach the Fleet.  They do contain lots of good information regardless of the platform you are on.

[kerowhack]

As a recent graduate of the pipeline and a current fleet sailor, I think I might have a few observations that will be helpful. We all heard about the old days, and sailors who shot the gap, but right now we have a sailor on our boat who was a 2.6 student through all of the pipeline, and had a few other personal problems (underage drinking, speeding, drunk in public stuff), basically a guy who would've been totally written off as a loser and cut pretty quick, and he is the friggin man. He knows more than some of our chiefs, he has an amazing work ethic, and he is a great operator. He can do the dumb paperwork stuff, too, and pretty much is the goto guy for just about anything, but what it really comes down to is that if we ever had a serious casualty like a SLR or something, I would want him in my watch section. We also had a 2nd class who came to our boat, already had his fish, who got kicked off the Ohio and ended up here, and was a lazy piece of sh*t who knew absolutely nothing about anything and was about to be kicked for failure to qualify by his EDOM date, and ended up getting a psyche discharge. The old way, both of these guys would have been gone before they ever got anywhere near a boat, but I would rather have the first guy working with me even if it means putting up with the second guy for a few months, so maybe the standards are not too low.

[HydroDave63]

ok, so you make the call....by what criteria would you retain or drop nuclear engineering personnel?

[MMCIcebergDX]

Well, IMHO....

Let's see....

MM 'A' and Power school at Orlando
S-5G (I miss Idaho)
CVN-70 - 5 year sentance
MTS-626 - 3 year sentance
CVN-72 - 5 years sentance (and a lovely 10 month deployment... nothing like turning around 8 days from Pearl to go back to the gulf....)

Have the standards dropped?  HELL YES!  I am sure there are many that remembered people getting masted for being .1 hours short for hours, cheating, DWI, etc...  While I was teaching at Charleston we had a kid come through with a SEXUAL HARASSMENT MAST, 2 DWI's routinely 8 - 10 3 course failures, recomp failures, not to mention the lying (followed some students home when they were supposed to be doing plus hours, wrote them up, and they dropped the investigation because it was a EWS qualified staff instructors word against 3 non-quals.  There are no friggen standards at NPS and NPTU any more.  We used to joke that we could qualify a coffee cup as a nuke operator, if we could get it to say its name.  SIT's were "regrading" tests of students if they got less then a 2.60.  Students no longer on fixed hours, and if your nub was behind, you (the staff) was required to do extra hours.  I believe that the OLD standard needs to come back, integrity violations go away, academic problems go away, military problems go away.  I think that students do deserve an individual look, and I know that some of the academically challenged have made good nukes, and the staff can make the evaluation as to if a person should be retained, but the way it is right now, there is way more attention to QUANTITY, rather then Quality.  All I do know for certain is there are a lot of kids out there now, that would not have made it through 10 or 15 years ago, and that is a sad thing.

[JoeFlo]

I just Graduated NPS 2 weeks ago. I wasn't a very stong student (2.9). We had two guys that worked their butts off. One was a few points shy of the 3 course failure rule while the other failed comp. Both of which have graduated. Both of which also in my opinion deserve to be nukes. A 3rd individual had 13 exam failures (3 were below 2.0) but only 2 course failures. When our SLPO threatened to put him on phase one if he failed the next test he would magically score 3.6's. On one of the last exams he was 30 points shy from passing the course. The instructor took it upon himself to give him those points so he could pass. That same instuctor told him before the review to not put in for a regrade! Well we knew the student to be an earthsack so we reported the situation. The student is still pending mast (was also de-nuked) while the instructor is being investigated by the base JAG.

We as a class made a decision to do this. When spending that much time with other students you can figure out who is willing to be a hard worker. I am not saying the standards are fine the way they are...all I am saying is that the instuctors can't really determine who should stay and should go therefore should not give points to those people just so they can pass. Whats the point of having standards at all if numbers are going to be changed behind closed doors anyway!

 

[taterhead]

We as a class made a decision to do this. When spending that much time with other students you can figure out who is willing to be a hard worker. I am not saying the standards are fine the way they are...all I am saying is that the instuctors can't really determine who should stay and should go therefore should not give points to those people just so they can pass. 

Well, there is something to be said for having the "big picture" and not.  Students do not have the "big picture".  They haven't even sniffed at it yet.  Manning levels and the effect that manning has on the ships' ability to carry out the mission have to play into the equation, and that is usually transparent to a student. 

On the other hand, our class did the same sort of thing.  We had this one piece of crap guy who was exactly like the guy described above, except that he was cheating.  We all knew it.  So we conspired against him and our class leader turned him in.  Out he went.  Looks like this happens more often than not, and it is not an altogether unhealthy phenomenon.

[nukeET1]

As a former instructor at NNPTC for over 3 years I will tell you my opinion on the situation.


Pre-1996
1.  When most Navy nukes came through NNPTC (the ones the post here) the attrition rate was insanely high. (Our 'A' school class had 28 to start and only 3 made it through the entire pipeline including myself)  I believe the numbers were around 35-40 percent.
2.  Most instructors at the time really did not care what the students did/did not do.  There were quite a few that if you went to get help they would say "get the F$#K out of here we are talking about football etc etc." OR you needed a direct question that required little information from them.  There were exceptions, but not to many.  In order to pass you worked YOUR ass off and studied to make it through the program. Runtime was non-existant.  In prototype to get signitures it was a coke or candy or you could forget about it (well ok... not all the time) 
3.  If you were caught doing anything wrong in most cases (unless you were female or other then white male) you were booted from the program no questions asked.
4.  You failed Comp you were gone with very rare exceptions.
5.  You drank underage and were stupid enough to get caught..... forget it you are to dumb to be a nuke. (you have to be creative:)

Present day:
1.  The attrition has been driven super low (less the 6 percent including non-acedemic drops).  This was driven because the manning of the nuclear program down the road is insanely low.  There is a reason the bonus is 100k to reenlist and it is not because the Navy wants to pay you more money.  The manning for experienced operators out in the fleet has been and will continue to decline in the future.  They are trying to throw money at the problem and send more students, vice actually fixing the real problems.
2.  The instructors for the most part are forced to bend over backwards to help the students pass the exams.  Most divisions had people available for runtime during the day and at night during NDI (division dependent).  If a student is failing they are assigned to other instructors for more help.  If they fail more they are giving academic boards which they almost always pass.  If they fail the comp, almost an automatic recomp.
3.  The students for the most part worked hard.  I would say 80 percent worked hard, 10 percent required no work and 10 percent required more work then they were worth.  They would have failed within 3 weeks in the old program but now we are forced to hold their hands.  NFAS/NPS is usually the first time in their lives they are actually required to work in their lives and some students just can't/don't want to do this.
4.  The military aspect of the school has gone down significantly.  There is no fear of "getting talked to" by the chief or section leading petty officer (SLPO).  Even if they got sent to the Department Head there were many students that had no fear of that.  Going to mast almost became a joke to some students.  In reality, some of this is due to their upbringing, alot of this is due to the "touchy feelyness" instilled in the military.  We had students coming out of boot camp that would talk back, swear at instructors, and in general be very disrespectful. 
5.  Overall I believe the students coming out of the pipeline know as much, if not more then what we did when we went through the program.  The instructors put in the time and the exams are still equivalent.  I believe that integrity went out the window, the underage drinking problem never got solved, and the military aspect decreased significantly.  This has been shown/fedback to the command via sea-returnees complaining about the Nubs they received out in the fleet, not wanting to qualify or expecting to have their hand held the whole way.  They even had a few that showed up and when told to go look it up in the S+EPM they said the what?  They had no idea, since prototype has alot of stuff computerized.
6.  MMCIcebergDX was correct about standards.  The upper chain believe every person put into the program by the recruiters should pass. In an ideal world... maybe. In reality, no way in hell.  Some students are not required to even take the NFQT anymore.  I had one student that had a waiver for MATH and PHYSICS?   How can that be possible???  Anyone who fails math in 'A' school should have been an autodrop..... the math is very basic and taught the fundament of all nuclear programs... follow the procedure.. can't do that.."boot". There was one student who cheated on Comp. and was caught redhanded by the staff.  Went to mast, RIR, lost money, retained in program?  That is a loss of standards I do not care if the CO himself told all of us it was not. (not the current CO btw).

Worth it?

1. Absolutely 100% yes!  I would not be where I am today and making the money I do without the Navy Nuke program.  The experience you gain and contacts/friends you make are probably the best in the world.  Once you get out you will be amazed at the amount of ex-navy nukes there are and the job opportunities are limitless.  My advice: work hard, get your degree while you are in, don't bitch and moan at every little thing, work hard, listen to what your LPO/chief has to say (they might actually be right), say yes sir! when you really mean (F%$K off), and work hard!

EX-nukeet1

[Fermi2]

Well said nukeET1,

Hey didn't you end up at Oyster Creek? How's the Instant program going?

Mike

[shayne]

Well said Ex nukeet1.  More reasons why I departed the Navy.

I can think of many students that didn't deserve to pumped through the program during my staff tour at S8G.  One student, failed prototype final exam twice and was given a third.  This same individual was caught forging signatures, sleeping in the training area and head, and military bearing problems (uniform, shave, late for work).  He was given orders to a sub.  Eventually he was denuked, but not until after he couldn't arrive to the sub IAW his orders.  It was this very example that opened my eyes to the integrity of the program.

3. If you were caught doing anything wrong in most cases (unless you were female or other then white male) you were booted from the program no questions asked.

I never saw any of this type of discrimination during my Navy Career. 

[Roll Tide]

I thought so as well Shayne, but I didn't respond because I was in during a dip in females in the Nuke Navy. I saw some pretty blatant stuff that wasn't Nuke, but the Nuke program I was associated with was pretty consistent in dealings with women.

I saw some situations that were possibly race / ethnic discrimination, but not blatant. I can't be sure it wasn't just slight differences due to the individuals involved.

[shayne]

I'm certainly not saying it didn't happen in the Navy General, Just that I wasn't aware of any of this during my career and hardly ever in the Nuclear Navy. Which looking back now, I don't remember too many minorities.  Maybe I'm racial blind, see everyone as Nukes.

Most of the discrimination I saw was associated with work.  The harder you worked, the more work you got.  The better an operator you were, the more watches you had.  The better you were at troubleshooting, the more of it you did....

[nukeET1]

3.  If you were caught doing anything wrong in most cases (unless you were female or other then white male) you were booted from the program no questions asked.

I should probably elaborate.  In 1994/1995 when I went through the pipeline there were several cases that stuck out in my mind about discrimination of male/female.  We had one classmate who on the 8th week of NFAS decided on the weekend to go UA and underage drink.  He missed monday which was an exam (every monday was an exam it seemed like).  When he came back Tuesday the instructors and his LPO was furious.  He was written up on all the things he had been doing wrong, etc etc.  He never went to mast and never got in any trouble.  The instructor came back in to the classroom and told us students "The response the department master chief gave was "SN so and so is a fine young hispanic american just trying to do his job for his country".  Maintained in the program, ended up failing out anyhow.
The second case involved an ENTIRE class of people who never made it as Navy nukes.  The class decided on a Friday night to go out drinking with over/underage people in attendence.  There was one female at the party in particular hitting on all the guys.  She slept with one of them and then the next day he wanted nothing to do with her (she was UGGGGGLY).  Anyhow, she claimed rape come monday morning. HUGE investigation, all names named, all persons interviewed.  The whole class (minus 2 people) went to mast and was booted out of the nuke program.  One of the persons was not at the party and the other was this girl.  Turns out she was not raped, just claimed it because she was pissed.  Her punishment?
1. RIR
2. Loss of money
3. Restriction 45 days, xtra duty 45 days.
retained in program!!!  (unheard of in 1994 for lying, underage drinking, etc etc)

Broke restriction to go drinking and lied about it.
Mast again
1. RIR
2. Loss of money
3. Restriction and extra duty.
retained in program!!!!  The first time in history (2 masts as a student?)

Broke restriction again
FINALLY was going to get sent to CCU and booted outta the program.
"oh, I am going to kill myself" claims FN (not gonna say the name)
poof, out of the Navy.
24 students in MM 'A' school gone (rightfully so with underage drinking at the time)
3 masts later, one female student gone.

I believe back then there was pressure to get the first female nukes through the program and retention of them up to that point was poor. (note: perception is reality of course) (note: these cases above were two examples, whether the entire program at the time worked like that, I could not tell you.  I had heard other cases in prototype.... but I did not know first hand those cases)

Please note this is NOT what the program is like now by any means.  Right now there is NO discrimination male or female, black, white, purple, whatever.  The minute any type of discrimination is perceived or reported there is huge investigations.  The Navy has done a good job at stamping out such discrimination and rightfully so.

Right now, anyone going to NFAS receives more then their fair share of opportunities to succeed.

[s_Phoenix]

"Please note this is NOT what the program is like now by any means.  Right now there is NO discrimination male or female, black, white, purple, whatever.  The minute any type of discrimination is perceived or reported there is huge investigations.  The Navy has done a good job at stamping out such discrimination and rightfully so."

Sorry that is what its still like.  The navy and nukes never change.   Untill its way to late.  As the say goes, all the changes you see were written in the blood of a shipmate.

I've seen the dumbest female, not go to mast for sleeping with her chief, who was married.  Then not go to mast for sleeping with her DivO, who was also married.  Was dating another officer and was well know that he was married. 

The Nuke navy doesnt want to change.  If they can pass it off as working they will keep putting bandages on a gapeing wound.

[Roll Tide]

Before this gets too severe in bashing minorities or NNPTC in general, let's remember a little about standard management techniques. Major changes that can't be made before a crisis (because of opposition) are easily accomplished after a disaster. TMI meltdown and BFN fire were disasters that led to many positive changes in the commercial industry; USS Thresher and Tailhook Convention caused many positive changes in the Navy.

If things are as blatant as Phoenix perceives, it would be a good time for a letter to a Senator or Congressman! (Yeah, you have to run a chit through the chain of command to send a letter to your Senator or Congressman but your wife or parents don't!)

[shayne]

... you have to run a chit through the chain of command to send a letter to your Senator or Congressman but your wife or parents don't!)

Little confused on this. 

Is a chit required for each individual letter to your Congressman/Senator regardless of its nature
Or
Because of its nature being about the Navy?

[Roll Tide]

Just a blanket chit to inform the chain of command you will be corresponding with your elected representatives. Of course that is followed by interviews with everyone in the chain of command, which aren't to ask you not to do it......

Let your spouse or parent do it instead!

[nukeET1]

The chit being required to correspond to a Senator/Congressman was something required years ago.  I do not believe it is still required.  You could check with the legal department about such things.
As far as the comments s_phoenix made, that was a VERY true case.....

[taterhead]

A chit is not required to correspond with elected officials.

However, you are not allowed to correspond with elected officials in your official capacity without command approval.

Hence, sign your letter leaving off your rank, rate, etc.

[Fermi2]

Unless you are stating an official viewpoint for the Navy you are not required to have a chit approved to write your congressman.

Mike

[s_Phoenix]

Just had one of the better chiefs on my ship get s**t  canned by NRRO because they didnt like his answers during a level of knowledge.  More to the point a Q&A over why things are f#*&$d up on our ship.  Word is he spoke his mind.  The funny thing is he's PPWO and LDO selected.  So he will still be an officer just not a nuke. 

And people wonder why i'm just doing my 6 and out.  All anyone ever does in the navy is s**t on the guy under them.  Those that dont get s**t on twice as bad.

[taterhead]

Well, by getting out, you'll keep the multiple high for those who decide to stay in-

"Word on the street" is seldom 100% correct.  I am not arguing with you, but I have NEVER heard of someone getting fired (on the enlisted side) just for an answer on a LOK.

I heard that you guys were having some other issues...do you guys need me to come back and start giving out hugs again?

[CharlieRock]

Lots of things are screwed up in the Navy.  Lots of things are screwed up on the outside also.  Don't believe the hype that NRRO can get a chief de-nuked (especially a guy well thought of enough to  qualify PPWO and select for LDO).  No matter how much fear NRRO may inspire, their power is actually very limited.  If your chief got de-nuked it wasn't just his level of knowledge.  Does that mean he didn't get de-nuked for some other stupid reason? No.  But I can tell you from personal experience that NR values the truth.  They want to hear when something is screwed up BUT if you speak up you had better have facts to back it up - not just 'This sucks'. 

[shayne]

I'm certain that you don't have all the facts. 

[s_Phoenix]

Sorry but you wrong.  He told them at they Navy doesn't have enough leaders and that we need more like him.  Ones that are willing to stand up and try to fix whats wrong and not just keep doing things as is.

And He's right.  The Nuke Navy is going to hell.  They are more worried about number's than quality.  You can't hardly get kicked out.  They have lowed the standard from 2.8 of 4.0 to 2.5 and theres talk of lowering it to 2.0.  They will promote anyone to try to keep them in.  Right now the number of personel with more than 8 yrs in is 25% undermaned.  Surface rates are up to 40% at a number of years.  We dont hardly anyone returning to ship's after there first tour.  Everyone is getting out.  WHY, because there sick of being S**T on.

The Navy is going to lose a boat sooner than later do to a bad set of events.  Your going to reading about it and asking what went wrong and there will not be an easy answer.  As I said before "The Navy and Nukes never change.   Untill its way to late.  As the say goes, all the changes you see were written in the blood of a shipmate."

The training level is going down.  All they want to do is pump numbers out.  Not make well trained sailors.  The nuke program of old is gone.  And there is not going to be a change untill it is written in blood.

[nukeET1]

Just had one of the better chiefs on my ship get s**t  canned by NRRO because they didnt like his answers during a level of knowledge.

I am not sure who you are trying to kid, but it is not anyone who has had anything to do with the nuclear program.  NO chief would ever get de-nuked because of his answers during a LOK interview.  How would I know this?  I have a very good friend of mine that I worked with who was part of the NR team and did the inspections for 3 years.  He said the chief might have been reassigned instead of being an LPO of a division, maybe to other duties, but NEVER denuked.  In my 10 years in the Navy I saw two people denuked (other then students) and that was due to a BLATANT disregard to following procedures and one person for drugs.  Denuking someone takes an act of GOD (ie: paperwork submitted with exceptional circumstances and is reviewed by everyone.... then MAYBE you will be denuked).

I would guess the real circumstances involved ALOT more then you see.  One of the main problems the nuclear navy is facing is the LACK of leadership and accountability of those who you lead.  I always found 10 percent of the people you lead cause 90 percent of the trouble.

I am not sure what you are meaning about the 2.0 standard?  What tests/school are you talking about?


We dont hardly anyone returning to ship's after there first tour.

About the undermanning issues you are entirely correct.  They had just upped the reenlistment bonus to 100K for 5 years right before I got out.  The manning on shore and at sea is horrific and is going to get worse as time moves forward.  I knew of one guy who came from the BIG E and made ETC in under 6 years.  The ETCM  that I worked for in NFAS was on one of the boards and had said they made 4 chiefs that year that were not qualified EWS (PPWS for surface).

I will close this by agreeing with CharlieRock saying there is a lot of things screwed up in and out of the Navy.  The philosophy of the grass is like Augusta on all golf courses is not true (sorry the Masters is today).  The real question becomes
Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?
That is the question you have to ask everyday you go into work. (yes work, the Navy was never a game, like many people who were in/are in think it is).

Are you the person who consistantly does his/her job.  Do you exceed at the work and give it your 100 percent? Do you use your knowledge and ability to help those who show up that may or may not have all that level of knowledge?  Or do you allow yourself/co-workers to lead that person down the wrong path? 

No one joins an organization (Navy included) expecting to do a bad job, bad leadership leads to bad workmanship.

Thought for the day though...... If you have under 6 years, my guess would be you were in class 99 or 00 something.  The attrition rate was ONLY 10 percent maybe a bit more if I remember right.  The nuke program of old:
(when you showed up and the first thing I remember was a master chief saying "shake the persons hand next to you" and of course you did... he then said "That person probably will not make it through this program" and he was 100 percent correct.
Around 1997 an admiral came down to NNPTC Orlando and gave the imfamous speech about how things were going to change.... so you came in/through the program after the changes.

 All they want to do is pump numbers out.  Not make well trained sailors.

Who makes the well trained sailors?  The training program?  The chiefs at sea?  The LPOs?  The COs?



The question I go back to if things are so broke....
Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?




Ex-Nukeet1

And Mike since I know you are going to ask.... the SRO class is going well   It is simply amazing how much BIGGER stuff is here and how many alarms there are!  I will say nuclear is and forever will be in my blood!


"mmmmm donuts"  Homer Simpson at the RPCP

[ex-SSN585]

In my 10 years in the Navy I saw two people denuked (other then students) and that was due to a BLATANT disregard to following procedures and one person for drugs.  Denuking someone takes an act of GOD (ie: paperwork submitted with exceptional circumstances and is reviewed by everyone.... then MAYBE you will be denuked).

I can't agree with this.  I was de-nuked after 14 years.  It was not a blatant disregard for procedures on my part and certainly not for drugs.  Prior to the incident, I had been on three boats, EDPO/EWS and LELT on each, had never been to mast and had never received a letter of reprimand.  If the CO decides to denuke you, I don't think the paperwork is extensive and no one is going to argue with him.  My lengthy, well documented appeal to the squadron commander was pretty much a rubber stamp of the COs decision.  Sorry not to discuss the actual circumstances right now.  Maybe sometime later, maybe not.  (I didn't even get reduction in rate.  My fine was something like $100 or $200 for two months.)  But everyone knew I dedicated everything to the job ...  no time away taking care of family business, minimal time for getting that college degree that everyone says is easily achievable ... yeah, I was a bit of a micromanager for spending evenings and weekends trying to make sure the paperwork was correct, but none of that counted.  (Sorry to get worked up, I'll stop now, since I'm just procrastinating from getting some homework done.)

My only point here is that I don't remember many others being denuked, but it certainly didn't take much to get rid of me.  I have seen what I considered to be much worse violations (such as red tag violations), but for whatever reason, the CO didn't consider denuking to be appropriate.

[s_Phoenix]

They have lowed the standard from 2.8 of 4.o to 2.5 and theres talk of lowering it to 2.0.

On test's in school and overall gpa.

And to getting denuked, we have (I think) 8 maybe 9 people being denuked.  Including 1 officer.  There not even questioning request's from our ship right now.  Just processing them.  Thats not even counting those that are over there 2 year point and not qualed senior in rate.  If those all get processed it will be closer to 20.  Normally its hard yes, i've walked close to that line and have lucked out.  But now they dont care.  There just cleaning out any problems and trying to set it up for a new command.  Were getting a new CO and RO.  Plus most of our PA's are on the way out.  Most will be looking to retire and move on.

[taterhead]

I replied to you, by the way-

I will just say that I do not agree with the dire assessment you give of the Navy, Nuclear life, and life in general.  Big Navy is changing.  Yours is not the only ship to go through a period of upheaval and strife.  It happens to every ship, everywhere, at some point.  Things get dark for a while, then it gradually goes away.

This too shall pass, my friend.

[nukeET1]

That is amazing.... there must have been something really going/gone wrong to denuke 8-9 people.

I feel for ya.. I would not want to be at that command for a while.  We went through bad periods with BA on ORSE but never where the CO and RO got relieved.  That just plain sucks.

Ex-Nukeet1

[s_Phoenix]

We just scraped by to get a BA on our last orse, which was only a stepping stone in the long list of things that have gone bad on board us.

If you want a list of thing not to have happen at a young command just look at what happend on board us.

[Roll Tide]

We just scraped by to get a BA on our last orse, which was only a stepping stone in the long list of things that have gone bad on board us.

I remember the Engineer on a particular boat (late 80's) that looked at our commitments after ORSE and pronounced, "There is no way they can fail us, no one else can meet our commitments." Somehow, that became the unofficial motto of many onboard. "Significantly below average with major discrepancies" was the grade we received! 

"NEVER" and "ALWAYS" are difficult terms to justify in Naval Nuclear power.

[taterhead]

"There's no way they can fail us"

Sounds like famous last words...

[s_Phoenix]

Ok I messed up a little detail.  It wasnt NRRO that did the dead.  But rather NR, as in Naval Reactor, AKA Adm Donald, new head of NAVSEA 08.  It was at his interview for nuc officer.  Seem the adm didnt like his answer to what he did to prevent all that has gone wrong on board our ship.  Seem's telling him that its a lack of leadship from the top down is not the PC answer.

[CharlieRock]

Hey Nukeet1 - were you in the circle at NNPTC in 1997?  Just wondering, as I was also.  Remember that it was the Friday before three day weekend (Memorial Day I think) and the Admiral was nearly an hour late getting in from the Orlando Executive Airport?  After two hours in the Orlando sun, I was really ready to listen (not!)

Phoenix, I won't argue with you about the people on your ship getting de-nuked.  I wasn't there.  But I do know that we're not de-nuking in droves or even at an above normal pace.  There are always some people that screwed over.  That's a fact.  Its not fair and somebody fell asleep at the wheel.  I also know that bad morale on a ship can rapidly become a tailspin and it takes top notch leaders to pull it out.  The worst thing about that job is even if you succeed, you're not a hero, you just met expectations.

As to ADM Donald de-nuking the chief - that's his right.  There are two sides to every story and we don't know ADM Donald's.  If it makes you feel any better he just relieved the General Manager (read CO) of the Bettis Atomic Power Laboratory today.  Maybe he's cleaning house - trying to find the leaders to cure the problem and he didn't like your chief's attitude.

Also I think if your Chief is de-nuked he's not getting a commission.  LDOs select for their community.  If they no longer meet the requirements they revert to enlisted status provided they have not accepted a permament commission which I think they can do at 10 years. 

[DDMurray]

Hey Nukeet1 - were you in the circle at NNPTC in 1997?  Just wondering, as I was also.  Remember that it was the Friday before three day weekend (Memorial Day I think) and the Admiral was nearly an hour late getting in from the Orlando Executive Airport?  After two hours in the Orlando sun, I was really ready to listen (not!)

Phoenix, I won't argue with you about the people on your ship getting de-nuked.  I wasn't there.  But I do know that we're not de-nuking in droves or even at an above normal pace.  There are always some people that screwed over.  That's a fact.  Its not fair and somebody fell asleep at the wheel.  I also know that bad morale on a ship can rapidly become a tailspin and it takes top notch leaders to pull it out.  The worst thing about that job is even if you succeed, you're not a hero, you just met expectations.

As to ADM Donald de-nuking the chief - that's his right.  There are two sides to every story and we don't know ADM Donald's.  If it makes you feel any better he just relieved the General Manager (read CO) of the Bettis Atomic Power Laboratory today.  Maybe he's cleaning house - trying to find the leaders to cure the problem and he didn't like your chief's attitude.

Also I think if your Chief is de-nuked he's not getting a commission.  LDOs select for their community.  If they no longer meet the requirements they revert to enlisted status provided they have not accepted a permament commission which I think they can do at 10 years. 

I was at ADM Bowman's "Grassy Knoll" speech which was actually in 1998.  I believe I heard something different than the majority of staff that day.  I heard the admiral say that we needed to work harder to save as many students as we could.  The majority of staff heard, "Lower the standards."  Did we lower the standards?  I've completed two tours at NNPS.  My first tour (1990-1993) was a transitional period for me as I advanced to Chief but I remember it was the exception to let a marginal student (military or academic problems) move on.  The thought process was that we're preparing these guys for the fleet so, we were harder on them than we probably needed to be and guys got canned who probably could have made good operators.  We felt if the guy couldn't cope at NPS, there's no way he could make it at NPTU or the fleet.  Our attrition at NPS was about 25-30%. 

Fast forward to 1998 after the speech.  The thought process was that we need to give every sailor the chance to succeed because the fleet needs them.  It became harder to drop a student, but if you effectively documented the student's performance he (or she) could be dropped.  If there was any chance the student could succeed, the frame of mind was to give them a chance.  Our attrition lowerd to < 10%.  This of course puts more pressure on the NPTUs which is passed on to the fleet. 

If you look at it solely from the standpoint of attrition % , then the standards have lowered.  I will also say that many other factors influence the "quality" of students.  The number of sailors from broken homes; civilian competition; American's society shift towards gadgetry vice hard work all make it challenging to develop good operators.  The demands on the ship are much greater because of reduced budgets and tighter schedules.  Is Naval Nuclear Power broken?  I don't think so.  Does it need attention?  It always has, always will.  I think ADM Donald is demanding accountability for our actions.  In 21 years I've seen a few guys de-nuked after they made it through prototype.  I think it's pretty hard for a CO to de-nuke someone unless all possible corrective measures have been taken unless it's a gross case of misconduct or dereliction of duty.   Great discussion!

[wetbedknob]

I cannot say for sure that the standards did or did not change. I know that while I was doing my instrustor tour at S8G they held the instructors responsible for making sure the students learned. If they got too far behind the qualification curve, then the Admiral would hear about it and would crap on the CO. So instead of that happening, there was a push to keep an NDI of sorts after each shift so that the students could get checkouts during their plus hours. I did see a few instances where there were some second chances given. The worst was the DUI or underage drinking that happened too often and was swept under the rug with a warning.

I remember when I went through A school there were 14 of us. 7 rolled in (to make a total of 21) and we still graduated with 7.

[shayne]

I remember a similiar speech by the Adm. when I was at S8G followed by many radical changes to the program.

[jamster777]

I was also graduating NPS class 0406, (ET) and just to let you know it was a combination of S5W and S3G material... I actually thought it was quite confusing as our course material seemed to swap plant specs around back and forth like it was nothing... I assume that is because civilians who have never actually seen a plant write the course material...

They teach the S5W plant with the S3G core.  As far as I know, they don't switch specs around (at least not in the officer department).  Though I have not yet been to NPTU, I am told that the Charleston plants are almost exactly like what they teach at NNPTC.  The curriculum is continuously reviewed and updated by the engineers at Bettis and KAPL, and by the staff at Naval Reactors who help design the plants. All it it is approved by NAVSEA(08).  In fact, a Captain from Naval Reactors sat in on on of my classes today to assess how well the curriculum is being taught. Additionally Bettis and KAPL have design engineers permanently located at NNPTC to help with any issues that arrise with the curriculum.  Also, when these civilians that you refer to are hired on, they have to go through NPS and prototype along with the officer students.  I have two KAPL civilian employees in my section.

[visserjr]

Personally, the quality of Nubs at leats mechanics, these days, quite frankly blows. How does a mechanic not know what a flange is.

[shayne]

More than likely the KAPL employees were hired to be Nuclear Plant Operators.  They go through the Nuclear Power school and NPTU to qualify EOOW.  After their initial quals are done, they become part of the management that runs and operates the two facilities in NY.  Also, because of their position and qualifications, they help train the Navy Students, mostly officers, that are training at NPTU. 

Also, when these civilians that you refer to are hired on, they have to go through NPS and prototype along with the officer students.  I have two KAPL civilian employees in my section.

[Rad Sponge]

I was a SPU at NPTU-CHAR during the grassy knoll speach.

Like, Senior, most of us heard "Lower the standards" regardless of the voodoo Jedi Mind tricking he was attempting from his little podium.

He could of been doing a hula dance for all I knew, couldn't quite see him.

I remember this Chief pressing Mini-Admiral to say the standards have been lowered. Old Skippy bout had a P/F Scram before Chief backed off and Bo-Bo came back into the green band.

It was funny.

I, being a blatant smartass, was making the motion to raise my hand to ask the next question when my MM1/LELT looked at me with this "been on too many deployments" face and calmly said to me:

"Ask a question and you will be standing every 2nd half watch for the rest of your time here"

I lowered my hand.

[lswartz]

5.  Overall I believe the students coming out of the pipeline know as much, if not more then what we did when we went through the program.  The instructors put in the time and the exams are still equivalent.  I believe that integrity went out the window, the underage drinking problem never got solved, and the military aspect decreased significantly.  This has been shown/fedback to the command via sea-returnees complaining about the Nubs they received out in the fleet, not wanting to qualify or expecting to have their hand held the whole way.  They even had a few that showed up and when told to go look it up in the S+EPM they said the what?  They had no idea, since prototype has alot of stuff computerized.
EX-nukeet1

I haven't been in the Navy long enough to know whether integrity/motivation is any better or worse than it was before, but likely the reason the new sailors didn't know about the S&EPM is that at some prototypes (well, at MARF, anyway) there isn't any such thing--it's all in the RPM.  I didn't have any idea what the S&EPM was until I got to my boat.  (Yes, there is computer aided instruction at MARF, but we still spent plenty of quality time with the RPMs.)