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dav8

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Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« on: Jun 25, 2004, 10:21 »
The best way to prepare for nuke school is via math, physics, and chemistry. Always pay attention in class, do homework, ask questions, and most importantly write everything down. The attrition rate is 50%. If you don't make it, you only have to do 4 yrs. and at least you'll have a rate.

Unless you went through the program 20 years ago, the attrition rate is nowhere near 50%.  More like 8%.  They have been working hard to keep it low because they need people in the fleet.

« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2005, 02:29 by Shayne »

RCLCPO

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Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #1 on: Jun 25, 2004, 04:13 »
Yes, Nuke attrition is down to <15% (about 7% academic, the rest due to stupidity).  A lot of this is due to the constraints imposed on those wanting the program.  The Navy finally got smart and realized that if they screened the applicants for only those with a high chance of completing the program, they could save some money by cutting losses.

As to being a SPU, there are a couple of other benefits.  First, it gives you a chance to become the technical experts that most folks in the fleet don't take the time to do (gives you a chance to screw things up without scramming the plant at sea, too).  And second, for a career sailor, it means retirement after only 2 sea tours vice 3 for a 20 year career.  This way, one can retire from shore duty (at least that's the way it's worked out for me).

20 Years Gone

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #2 on: Jun 27, 2004, 09:04 »
   Attrition is way down over the last several years, but I disagree that it is because we have raised our entrance standards... Rather, it is because we almost never dis-enroll anyone, for anything.  Back in the day of the 50% attrition, it was pretty easy to get dis-enrolled... especially if you had a problem with integrity.  Cheating on an exam, or lying to your section advisor was a quick ticket out of the program and directly to the fleet.  Nowadays, we do have students who cheat, and get caught, and so long as they are repentant and up-front about it, they go see the captain and are retained.  Perhaps this is a better way.... Can you be taught integrity?  Or at least have a higher standard instilled in you once you've reached "adulthood" (18-22)?  Academically, some students who would have never made it through back then do make it now... Re-comps, for example, are almost automatic.  And should you fail the re-comp, you still have a great chance for a follow on ack-board.
   So, are we better off now than we used to be?  Well, several things are in motion... One, the economy in recent years has been down. Two, enlisment and retention bonuses are huge.  Three, there are war zones where you can re-enlist tax free, always a big incentive.  Finally, the pipeline has pumped many more people into the fleet, so manning is up, and duty rotations are down, causing quality of life to be up... (follow me?) Then end result is that retention has climbed, demand for nukes is down somewhat, and we can be more choosey, and get our yearly quotas filled earlier.  However, I don't think this results in a better product to the fleet. 
   Are we actually demanding higher ASVAB scores, higher NFQT scores, and less waivers, or are we just taking the same folks we always have, (don't get me wrong, very intelligent folks), and filling our quotas earlier, and then taking what's left and sending them to other jobs in the Navy?

RCLCPO

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #3 on: Jun 28, 2004, 01:49 »
One of the most frustrating things about being an instructor at NNPTC, and at a prototype, was the "you're a pump, not a filter" paradigm.  That part of the pipeline is still intact.  The amount of documentation required to get someone out of the program is measured by the cubic foot, or if the pile weighs as much as the student does.

As for the admission, yes, we are being more selective.  Every week I see kids get shot down, who, just a few years ago, would have gotten in with no problem.  Finding an applicant who wants to be a Navy Nuke isn't too difficult, but finding one who doesn't need a waiver for something is almost like finding a unicorn.  Some of our nuclear recruiting success is based on the economy, but most is due to the high price of college together with parents who had no plan whatsoever to pay for their kid's education.  The STAR option, and other re-enlistment bonuses, are also a big factor.  A $45,000.00 bonus for 2 more years of service sounds like a lot to an 18 year old kid.

As for integrity, I think the old way was better.  If a kid lied to me, intentionally, then it was game over.  Now, with the re-tread policy, I'm glad I'm not at sea any longer.  I don't think the kind of integrity nuclear power demands can be taught after the individual has joined.  Having children of my own, though, I can understand that an otherwise smart kid can be really stupid if given the chance.

Good thing I'm retiring soon.

Transuranic Trip

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #4 on: Jun 28, 2004, 09:11 »
Scary thing to hear the integrity thing has been easing up (if indeed it has) I got out almost 10 years ago... Seems like being light on integrity is a slipery slope. It's not like there were no nukes when the integrity was higher, it's just that the Navy ensured they did everything they could to minimize faked maintenance, record logs, etc... no way in he** I'd want to be in Reactor Controls Div if they began laxing on integrity.... Integrity with the big things starts with integrity on the small things.
« Last Edit: Jun 28, 2004, 09:11 by Transuranic Trip »

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #5 on: Jun 28, 2004, 11:36 »
I remember the way integrity was handled on the sub in 1994. We had a nub EM forge a signature on a checkout. He was disqualified AEA and become a FSA (assisting in the crew's mess) the next day. Upon return to port, he was taken off the ship and never worked another day as a Navy nuke.

I believe this was after standards had been relaxed from the ancient days in NPS / NPTU when I went through with 50% pipeline attrition. I don't think the standard eased in the fleet (but I would appreciate some current data.) The training pipeline seems to be the transition from the worldly standards (see Babylon) to Rickover standards. I think I preferred boot camp as the transition point for higher standards.
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Fermi2

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #6 on: Dec 16, 2004, 11:48 »
I was wondering if any current NPS instructor could tell me what the current state of NPS is?

For instance, how many sections are there?

How are they divided up? (when I was in we had mixed sections, some guys with lower scores teamed with guys with higher scores, they had letter designations like MM F)

What's the current graduation rate?

And what plant are they teaching?


I bring this up because I'm in a yahoo group that's made up of former Navy nukes. I mentioned we're starting to get some of the guys from the current generation of nukes applying for jobs at my nuke plant, and we're finding out most are dumber than a bag of hammers.  It's getting rather difficult to recruit from the Navy so we're hiring more and more non Navy nukes.

Mike

CharlieRock

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #7 on: Dec 17, 2004, 04:30 »
As a reminder some specific aspects of the nuclear propulsion pipeline are CONFIDENTIAL and almost all details of it are NOFORN. 

taterhead

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #8 on: Dec 17, 2004, 07:50 »
I bring this up because I'm in a yahoo group that's made up of former Navy nukes. I mentioned we're starting to get some of the guys from the current generation of nukes applying for jobs at my nuke plant, and we're finding out most are dumber than a bag of hammers. 

Wouldn't the guys you are hiring today be NPS graduates from 6,8,10 + years ago?

Another thought...if someone has been out of NPS for  6,8,10+ yrs, then the fault of their nuclear stupidity is likely the fault of the Continuing Training Programs aboard ships and subs.

I have some friends at NPS and prototype..I'm gonna ask.

Fermi2

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #9 on: Dec 19, 2004, 12:34 »
Sigh,

You don't have to explain to me about NOFORN, hgowever the plant they teach isn't considered NOFORN.

taterhead, it was 6 years ago they changed the standards for the program.

4 of the guys we interviewed in our last class were guys who got out on hardship discharges. Compared to the guys we interviewed say 4 years ago they were dumber than Dog++++

Mike

CharlieRock

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #10 on: Dec 19, 2004, 09:16 »
I wasn't trying to imply that the DIRECT answers to any of your questions were NOFORN or CONFIDENTIAL but any elaboration could be.

Offline sefrick

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #11 on: Dec 20, 2004, 12:39 »
Quite is kept... we had a MM2 report to my boat who made it very clear that he did NOT pass power school (failed comp, GPA below 2.50). He was "omni-domnied". He  graduated about 3 or 4 years ago and continued the pipeline.
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Fermi2

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #12 on: Dec 20, 2004, 02:27 »
I wasn't trying to imply that the DIRECT answers to any of your questions were NOFORN or CONFIDENTIAL but any elaboration could be.

Ok. No problem.

Mike

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #13 on: Dec 20, 2004, 02:55 »
   My-my, how times change. The bottom third of my MMA school class (71-2) was dropped even if they did pass. Three traffic tickets and you were out. Miss the bus three times at prototype and you were out. Only about 10% of those that enlisted as nukes when I did, made it through the program. We lost a few to batteries of tests in bootcamp, we lost them in "A" school (30%), we lost them to academics in NPS, and we lost them to drug exemptions, including President Carter's son Chip.
   Now just a few years later I can remember saying the same things Fermi2 is saying about our new nukes on the boats in the mid 70's. The draft ended in 75 but the threat of being drafted lessened a couple of years before. Manning on the boats was so bad that after a drug bust on one sub in Norfolk, a third of the crew went drug exempt, they were forgiven and dragged back to the boat. Without them, the boat could not even man a minimum port and starboard watch rotation (most were nukes).
   For you non-squid types the drug exemption program was a way to confess your drug use prior to testing, or arrest, and be forgiven provided it did not happen again. Initially the exemption was a automatic drop from the nuclear power program but as time went on it was just a way a way to get amnesty as the Navy implemented drug testing in the 70's.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.....

shayne

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #14 on: Jan 17, 2005, 05:00 »
Mike,
 
I can tell you how the program has declined IMHO at NY prototype from 1998 to 2001.  Mostly because the nuke program wasn't filling the bullets needed at the sea commands.  The solution by the training program was to eliminate the attrition due to academics.  The reason, "if they qualified to be in the program, they can make it through it.  The students may not be able to learn everything they are required to know through the training program, they can learn it on the ship." That was the reason for changing the training pipeline as I was leaving.  However I believe no one told the ships that they are now required to get the students up to nuclear standards.  The ships were already under manned and now they are required to upgrade these new nuclear operators to minimum par?  Well the ships don't have time or resources to perform the necessary training.
 
The staffing levels at prototype had also declined.  They started to supplement the staff with computers at S8G in my last few years there.  Most of the systems checkouts were done on the computers, similar to our web based training at Fermi.  The staff was there to review the checkout results, spot check few things, then sign the qual card.
 
The Navy program continues to try to fix the staffing issues at the initial pipeline instead of the other end.  They have now idea why most of the good operators are getting out after 6-8 years, even after they offer $100k bonuses.
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2005, 02:37 by Shayne »

mike.y7281

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #15 on: Jan 17, 2005, 06:56 »
hi, i'm currently about to graduate nps and here's the scoop on my class (0406), before the comprehensive exam. i doubt any of this is classified, since at graduation, i think they give class statistics.

10 sections (3 em, 2 et, 5 mm). the previous class had 11 sections, so it varies by how many people have their clearance when class begins.

the class started out with about 320 students, got as high as 330, and now is currently about 295. people are rolled in and out (more out than in, of course) due to academic or disciplinary reasons such as failing out or going to mast.

each section is formed through the mixing of the "A" school classes, i.e. if people were in the same class in "A" school, they'll most likely be in the same power school section. each section remains intact throughout the 6 months of training.

i think we're learning the s3g-3 plant.

hope this helps.

shayne

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #16 on: Mar 13, 2005, 03:12 »
 

Attrition is way down over the last several years, but I disagree that it is because we have raised our entrance standards... 
 
So, are we better off now than we used to be?   
   
However, I don't think this results in a better product to the fleet.   
   

 
I have been curious to the feedback from the Fleet.  With the drop in Attrition in the program, are the ships getting the quality nuclear operators?  Is the ship spending the necessary time and resources trying to get the individual up to the old standards?
 
I never went back to a ship after seeing the changes in the training program, so I'm out of touch with how the fleet feels about the new nuclear training program.
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2005, 02:38 by Shayne »

java

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #17 on: Mar 13, 2005, 08:57 »
I was also graduating NPS class 0406, (ET) and just to let you know it was a combination of S5W and S3G material... I actually thought it was quite confusing as our course material seemed to swap plant specs around back and forth like it was nothing... I assume that is because civilians who have never actually seen a plant write the course material...

java

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NPTU
« Reply #18 on: Mar 13, 2005, 09:09 »
Oh, and at prototype... it's not just about how well you do your job... If they people with you don't do their part and aren't ready for lectures (not having the prerequisite checkouts...) then you can look forward to saturday morning lectures, 14 hour days, and possibly even lectures at say 3 am friday morning... followed by the regular 7 am start of the day...
 
I don't know about Charleston, but up here in Ballston Spa there is a bunkhouse on the site for people who work extra hours to sleep in once in a while so they don't have to drive home.
« Last Edit: Mar 18, 2005, 02:39 by Shayne »

shayne

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Re: NPTU
« Reply #19 on: Mar 13, 2005, 11:06 »
Oh, and at prototype... it's not just about how well you do your job... If they people with you don't do their part and arn't ready for lectures (not having the prerequesite (sp?) checkouts...) then you can look forward to saturday morning lectures, 14 hour days, and possibly even lectures at say 3 am friday morning... followed by the regular 7 am start of the day...

I don't know about Charleston, but up here in Ballston Spa there is a bunkhouse on the site for people who work extra hours to sleep in once in a while so they don't have to drive home.

It is nice that the program is starting to make the students accountable for their qualifications.  During my staff tour there, it seemed like the program focus was to make the staff solely responsible to see each student qualify.  I'm not familiar with the corrective actions (punishment) or your current working hours to have an opinion on if it is the right approach.  I found that most students that struggled with prototype didn't really apply themselves or take the initiative to find the correct help when needed.  Every student should know what is required to complete their qualifications and if they don't, they need to talk with the Staff Advisor, TPO, or the Training Coordinator to provide guidance.

Well the bunkhouse is a new concept that wasn't there a few years ago.

Fermi2

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #20 on: Mar 14, 2005, 03:20 »
Hell java, you haven't seen a real plant yet, only a glorified start up source :)

Mike

Fermi2

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Re: NPTU
« Reply #21 on: Mar 14, 2005, 03:21 »
Idaho Falls had a bunkhouse, trouble is half the time it was closed because of the "crabs". That only meant the problem children had to ride the bus between their mando hours.

Mike

shayne

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Re: NPTU
« Reply #22 on: Mar 14, 2005, 03:29 »
Idaho Falls had a bunkhouse, trouble is half the time it was closed because of the "crabs". That only meant the problem children had to ride the bus between their mando hours.

Mike

Stayed there only once, just before by final board.  I remember thinking about all the hot water we generated at S5G, but no hot water at the bunkhouse to shower with.

CharlieRock

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #23 on: Mar 14, 2005, 08:43 »
Actually Java most of the folks who 'write' the course curriculum are EOOW (and NAVSEA 08 Engineer) qualified, sometimes on multiple platforms.  What do you think that all those CTEs/NPEs do after they leave prototype? Many of the T manuals are, of course, redacted from analysis documents or more basic academic works and the 'authors' are simply organizing and simplifying it.  Believe it or not, the NPS 'textbooks' are actually wonderfully simple compared to the source documents.

shayne

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Re: Current State of NNPTC. [Merged]
« Reply #24 on: Mar 14, 2005, 09:13 »
More than likely you will continue to reference those T manuals long after you reach the Fleet.  They do contain lots of good information regardless of the platform you are on.

 


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