Senior Reactor Operator

[astronuke]

Nine Mile Point, along with Ginna and Calvert Cliffs, are owned by Constellation Energy.

[nukeET1]

Wow... talking about a can of worms opened!  I thought there was going to be boxing gloves and a ring pretty soon!  I will try to throw my two cents in while I am at it.  Please do not mind my typing/english grammer as I just got up from mids

Here is my background info.
10 years Navy.
5 years RO
2 years EWS/EDPO
3 years instructor at NFAS

Finished my degree while I was in.

There were quite a few jobs out there at various power plants it really depended on where you wanted to go.  I had job offers on the table for I+C instructor, NLO job near Raleigh, Ionization implant supervisor something ruther (forget the exact title) but that was near Boston, and SRO (instant) at the big OC.

Things I have observed so far:


1. EOOW to SRO comparison does not exist.  Forget the leadership tactics that worked in the Navy.  The "Do it because I am telling you to" flies like a box of bricks on sunday in the shade.   There are some similar aspects depending on your experience with personel but not many. 
2.  The Navy designs are all similar and all VERY easy to manipulate/run.  I would estimate there are probably at least 80-100 more systems in a civilian plant. Everything from the normal systems to support systems (air, oil, H2, zinc, etc etc) to support to the support systems (fuel oil, Hvac, rad waste, rad waste support systems) to environmental systems.  Its like comparing a Yugo to a Huge slow moving Dump Truck... there is no comparison.
3.  The amount of knowledge required to become a SRO is overwhelming coming from the military.  The systems part mentioned in #2 is really the easy part.  That is all just memorization and you were correct in your post they really are not all that different in theory.  I would not worry about the systems.  The real challenge is EVERYTHING else.  Knowing how to get things done, who to call, where to go, what the solutions are for every day things as well as when things break.  When you are dealing with a support staff of 400+ people ( sorry.. not support staf... umm Engineering, I+C, mechanical, electrical, station services, FIN, etc etc) knowing who to call is pretty important and takes an immense time to learn.
4.  Running drills in the simulator (which is amazingly similar if not exactly like the actual plant) is ALOT harder then any drills we ever ran in the Navy.  The command and control necessary to be successful is amazing. Every Reactor Scram drill lights up around 100-150 alarms.  Which ones are important?    It makes running a slow leak drill on the Navy reactors... kinda like running a light bulb burned out at your house....The Navy design was simple.  Did I mention that there are no two Civilian plants alike.


The good observations:
  There are quite a few instant SRO that have their licenses here and two are SM.  So being and instant SRO is possible and can be done. It really depends on where you end up.  Some plants do not allow Instants, others I have heard have ALOT of animocity towards them, and others want to see you succeed and do well since they need people.  The Nuclear industry IMO is at a turning point right now.  There is going to be an huge turn over of people in the next few years (5-10) because of the retirement of the older operators.   Does it take an immense amount of work?  Yeah absolutly.  You basically have to forget a lot of the leadership BS the Navy burned into your head and actually start using some common sense.
I, personally, would not put down what Mike (Sequoyah 1&2) was telling you.  He is a Shift manager and has his SRO/RO license.  That right there tells you a lot.  Although his tact may need some honing, his opinion on the whole trying to compare Navy to Civilian is correct (there just isn't).



I'll debate a Naval Officer has any leadership skills. But it's been said we're here to help. I used to LOVE putting newly discharged Naval "leaders" in a room full of union guys and watch them get their heads ripped off while attempting their unique brand of Leadership with people who aren't captives

It is a good thing I was not eating while reading this... I think I would have to do some "Sea turtle" resucitation on myself... If that is not the truth I do not know what is....


How to get to SRO.
Common option:
1. Get a job as an NLO (20-23/hour to start, 30-32/hr plus overtime/doubletime once qualified .... about 12-14 months).  Go from NLO to SRO (possible depending on the company and ROs that want SRO.  Some places uses the seniority aspect because of the union.  Check that before you take the job)  Depending on the licensing and need for people classes run every 18-24 months (maybe).
Semi Common option:
2. Get a job as a system engineer.  Make a good reputation for yourself.  See what operations actually does, how the plant runs, and overall dynamics of the operation.
Rare and illusive position:
3.  Get a job as an "instant" SRO. Make a good reputation for yourself.  Learn everything you can possibly learn prior to class (6 month on site requirements for SRO).  Listen to the SRO/RO/NLOs and learn.

 Like I said before we have several SROs that work here and were instants..... and several SM.  They are all licensed and for the most part if I did not ask their background you would not know the difference.  The ability to learn is a powerful thing.  .
One thing I will say... there are both good, medium and bad people that work in all plants/corporations.  To say that the civilian industry has the "creme of the crop" was BS.  I work with all types of people and I trully beleive the diffence b/w good SRO/RO/NLO is their attitude.

GL with  your job search and do not limit yourself to just one type of work.  The military experience is good, your degree helps, but once you get out.. its a WHOLE new world

ex-nukeet1

PS:  One thing I found amazing.... they actually have sick days    You can call in.. and say hey.. I am sick LOL (without a doctor note or a bottle of Motrin).  Anyone else find that amazing after they got out of the Navy?

Another cool thing... is that the fuel glows blue after it comes out of the core... I always thought that was pure Hollywood BS.

[Fermi2]

Good Post Et1. NOTE I did not say Navy Nukes aren't capable of becoming good SROs.
I said Naval Officers tend to be worse at it. Those who qualified EWS usually tend to do quite well.

Also, an Instant with no previous Commercial Nuclear Experience tends to do worse than an upgrade. I'm talking long term and prospects of becoming a Shift Manager. Most SMs in this business started as NLOs.

I will stand behind my statement the Commercial world gets the cream of the crop. WE can be selective, much more than the Navy, and in my 15 years of commercial experience I've found the average commercial nuke is an order of magnitude better than the average Navy nuke, AND the Outstanding Commercial nukes are far above the Outstanding Naval Nukes. The knowledge level is broader and more in depth.

Right now, go to an MM on your boat, give him the Breaker Scematic and ask him to read it. My guess is he couldn't do so, yet this is a skill we consider BASE level for an NLO in the commercial world.

By the way Et1, I guess I'm properly EX LICENSED now. I officially got the word my license for Fermi2 is now non valid. So until I license again in 2006 I'm more corectly a former SRO

Mike

[halflifer]

Now as to how to become one, Nine Mile in Oswego, Ny is now looking for Auxilliary operators.  They are also looking for ROs and SROs. 

\

Who do we get in contact with on this?

[jasonmsmith]

Justme,

Thanks for the info.  It definitely sounds like a nice area.

Thanks Again,

Jason

[BillyJ]

I work at Watts Bar which I'm sure most of you know is a TVA plant along with Sequoyah and Browns Ferry.  I'm an ex-navy nuke and I am now a SRO/Shift Technical advisor/Unit Supervisor.  I have a BSNE which along with my naval time of 6 years and 10 years commercial and DOE experience in several different jobs after the navy, mostly contract positions (chemistry, radcon, project management, training, technical writing, etc).  I guess all that added up to the Ops Manager at Watts Bar offering me a position in one of their License classes as an Instant SRO.  By the way, this same guy is now Sequoyah's Plant Manager so he must have hired this Mike fellow also.  Sequoyah is about 60 miles away and is a practically identical apprx 1220 MW 4 loop Westinghouse Ice condenser plant.  Mike makes some valid points in what he says and is full of @#$% with some of his other comments.  I have been through the Naval Nuclear program, gotten a BS in Nuclear Engineering, and made it through NRC License class.  I personally believe that Naval Nuclear Power School was the most difficult.  Maybe I just had a lot more experience and knowledge when I got the NRC License.  However, with that said, there were 15 individuals in my License class (9 SRO and 6 RO), only 5 of us got licenses (4 SRO and 1 RO).  There were 8 instant SRO candidates (3 instant SRO candidates that already worked at Watts Bar in different capacities and 5 they brought in from outside) and 1 RO to SRO upgrade.  Of the 8 instant SRO candidates only 3 of us got licensed.  We all had one thing in common, we were ex-navy.  None of the other 5 that failed out were ex-navy.  However, since so many of the Instant SROs failed this class Watts Bar now prefers, but not demands, ex-SRO licensed individuals for Instant SRO condidates. 

Don't get me wrong, Mike has a good point, it is a world of difference between navy nuclear power and commercial nuclear power.  The things that navy nukes have going for them is 1) They have already been screened many different ways by the naval program.  2) The ones that made it all the way through school, prototype, and sea duty have proven they can learn well, adapt to Bull%*$t well, take tests well (extremely important!!!!!), and stay out of trouble. 3) Have a good GENERAL knowledge of Reactors, equipment (although smaller scale), and some of the same systems that are at PWRs. 

It is still hard to make it through License class for any Instant SRO candidate.  The hardest part is the simulator.  I have seen some amazingly intelligent individuals fall completely apart when it comes to simulator training.  This gets more people than the systems or any other part of the class.  It is pretty difficult sometimes to know exactly what is going wrong in a simulated scenario when there are literally hundreds of malfunctions that can be programmed into the simulator.  You have to have almost instantaneous recognition of exactly what's going wrong and what to do RIGHT NOW to control the entire plant and have the command and control to look like you do to instructors/NRC/Evaluators.  One mistake can cost you 18 months to 2 years of your life if you make it during the NRC exam.  There is no room for error.  One mistake during requal training (every 5 weeks by the way) can get you pulled from license duties.  Enough babbling here are some facts:

1) Ex-Navy personnel without degrees will not generally get a shot at Instant SRO, they have to go up through the ranks starting as a Auxillary Unit Operator (equipment operator) kinda like MMs in nuclear navy.
2) Ex-Navy personnel with degrees have a pretty good chance of at least getting an interview for an Instant SRO position (at least at Watts Bar).  Do not have a "I know everything about nuclear power" attitude because when it really comes down to it you really don't.  Swallow your pride like I did and admit it and go from there.  We have an Ex-Master Chief that became an SRO that came in with this "just give me a license I already know this crap" attitude and it was ugly for him before it was all said and done.
3) We are having hell keeping up with the attrition of SROs due to retirement.  We are currently 12 SROs short of full SRO staffing.  And there aren't enough ROs that can be cut loose to upgrade to SRO.  This means Instant SRO positions will be filled.
4) Ex-Navy personnel are the highest achievers in our last 4 license and non-licensed operator classes since I've been there.  This is not just my opinion this is fact.
5) Individuals from other departments on a particular site do well also (Engineering, chemistry, radcon, etc)  They already have a great deal of system experience.
6) The GFE exam is almost as hard as the written NRC exam.  If you don't know what GFE is and want to get a license, trust me, find out and study!!! I don't know if the NRC website still has information on GFE but I know they used to.
7) If you were relatively high ranked in the navy, yes LT this includes you, but also E-7, E-8, E-9, and are used to "my way or the highway".  Don't even go there.  That stuff only works in the military.  Believe me when I say "your operators under you can make or break you".  You have to be the boss but you better know how to be a boss!!

Anyone who has any other questions can email me at bwjohnson1@tva.gov  I would be glad to help.

[halflifer]

Excellent post, BiilJ. Just one point.....you talked about school/training/getting the license. What about success in the Control Room? Getting the license isn't the same as running the plant.

[jasonmsmith]

BillyJ,

Thank you for the great information.  This is exactly what I was looking for when I started this Subject.  It is good to see how passionate everyone seems to be on this subject.  I am also glad to see all of the ex navy nukes out there in commercial nuclear power field.

Jason

[Fermi2]

I never said a Naval Officer couldn't get an SRO License. I said they make crappy Senior Reactor Operators. There is a difference. 12 years of havingt a License the last 7 of which was an SRO License gives me plenty of proof they're crappy at running a Control Room. That's a fact. I've had Navy guys on my shifts, and non navy guys. The Non Navy guys did just as well as the Navy guys, in many cases better. Then again I was never exposed to all that many bright Naval Officers.


I had an Navy Lt come into Fermi and tell me all the reasons why a BWR couldn't work, which was odd because even as this Naval Genius spoke the Big Pig was generating 3292 MW th.

By the way, is Watts Bar going to recruit SRO Talent from the Industry?

AND, can you imagine how that conversation went when some Engineer at WEstinghouse said he had the answer to making a smaller containment, then said "We'll out Ice in it?"

Mike

[jasonmsmith]

Mike,

Your last reply was definitely "below the belt" in regards to Naval Officers, and naval personnel in general.  Why in the world you talk this way about people who serve this great country of ours is beyond me. 
If I ever post a question again on this site, please do not respond.  I am not at all interested in what you have to say.

[Nuclear NASCAR]

If you gentlemen have a disagreement please handle it via PM.  Thank You.

[kwicslvr]

Mike,

Your last reply was definitely "below the belt" in regards to Naval Officers, and naval personnel in general.  Why in the world you talk this way about people who serve this great country of ours is beyond me. 
If I ever post a question again on this site, please do not respond.  I am not at all interested in what you have to say.

Hang in there Jason.  Don't let one bad egg here get to you.  There is a lot of good people here with a lot of good information.  You can definately learn a lot here.  A lot of good info has been written in this thread to give you a good heads up and ideas as were to start.  I myself left the Navy 2 years ago after 12 years.   Civilian plants are easier to work at then military mainly because of less BS.  Same amount of politics pretty much.  My best advice.  When you get hired on somewhere, be humble, be open minded and be eager to learn.  There will be a lot for you to learn.

[shayne]

The simple fact that you were EOOW qualified in the Navy does not mean that you are qualified to be a licensed SRO.  Just as a ELT is not qualified to be a Sr. RCT or an ET/RO in the Navy is not qualified to be RO at a commercial plant.  If you want to be a sucessful SRO, start at the Non Licensed Level.  Spend a few years there learning the plant and work your way up to licensed RO.  Just as was posted earlier, it could take many years.  Your leadership and supervisor skills will also need some tuning.  Your officer uniform will not give you the respect to be a sucessful leader outside of the Navy.

[kwicslvr]

  Your officer uniform will not give you the respect to be a sucessful leader outside of the Navy.

 

Hehe...unless you are a ring knocker going to a plant where a lot of management are ring knockers also!

[Roll Tide]

Why in the world you talk this way about people who serve this great country of ours is beyond me. 

First, let me say "THANKS" to you and all those that are serving today. Without you, we would not have the freedoms we enjoy in this country.

Now that that's out of the way, let me explain a few things that many have to learn by experience:

Navy plants are not physically operated like commercial plants.
Commercial workers are not like Sailors: the operators do not do maintenance, and the crafts do not operate systems and equipment.
No one cares how you did it in the Navy.
The quickest way to evaporate any good will from your future subordinates is a condescending attitude. Are you aware there is a difference in officer to enlisted relationships when comparing submarine nuke and surface deck departments? The relationship of SRO to other Nukeworkers in commercial nukes has a greater contrast!
When you are the new guy at the commercial nuclear power plant, remember that YOU ARE THE NEW GUY!

If you learn these things from my gentle suggestions, it will be much less painful than learning it by experience. A few years down the road, you can verbalize your Navy experiences in light of your commercial experience without any problems.

[Fermi2]

Ok wait a minute. I never said Jason didn't have a chance at being an SRO or whatever position he desires. For all I know he'll be great. At least he had the common sense to ask, now I hope he gains the maturity to take it well when someone presents him with answers he might not like.

I'm in no position to doubt his  ability or sincerity, I've never served with the man, nor has he ever worked for me. I only opposed to the notion that being an EOOW is anywhere near the same as being an SRO, it's not, it's not even equivalent to being an RO. It's a kindergarten version of both, BUT we all had to start somewhere.

Also, the same skills that make one a successful "Naval leader" are not the same ones that will make one a successful leader in the commercial industry. He needed to hear that on this forum, otherwise he'd get slaughtered in the commercial world.

I'm not a tactful person, Shayne will attest to that, but I am an outstanding SRO, I know that because my management at Fermi thought so, and my management here thinks so. I worked my way up from the bottom and learned this industry inside and out. So please excuse me if when I see Navy on a resume my first thought is Entry Level, because that's what it means to me.

Mike

[JnyMac]

I think the Idea of starting out at the bottom is great.  Our plant manager was an AO at TMI when the S@%T hit the fan.  He is a great guy to work for and has an appreciation for the job the frontline does.  You can call him up and go sit in his office and talk to him and he listens.  Some of the other managment only wants to talk down to you.  The better SROs I deal with are the ones that worked their way up.

[BeenThereDoneThatSRO]

I've seen lots of military officers come into the industry. Some do quite well while others struggle. As mentioned, the key is attitude. Yeah the Union folks will eat you for lunch if your attitude is "I am the boss therefore I must be the brightest one here." I've been around a long time (over 20 years with a license) and let me tell you those Assistant Unit Operators out in the plant will make you or break you. If you don't listen to those folks out in the factory you just won't make it. To make it as a supervisor, you need a healthy dose of humility, a concern and respect for your people and be willing to wait it out until you earn their respect. I'd say anyone successful in the Navy nuclear program has the brains the make it. All that is needed will be the right attitude and the willingness to let those working for you ...... help you.
P.S. Mike is right .... get into the engineering group first, learn the plant and then jump into the instant SRO program. The folks I've seen go that route have been very successful. There are success stories with others straight off the boat, but they are the minority.

[Rad Sponge]

After reading this whole discussion its obvious that the "big brain/big boss" mentality is not a Navy nuke thing or commericial nuke thing, its a plain old nuke thing.

So I pose this question for all you salty civilians...

If an interviewer was to as me "How do you feel your Navy training has prepared you for a career in commercial nuclear power?" how would you respond,,,

[NuclearJoe]

I've worked at a plant in Michigan for about 13 years now, and I came here after 8 years as an enlisted EM nuc. From what I've seen, the Navy label only means you're trainable. If you go to a BWR there are drastic differences in the operational theory, so don't think your EOOW will carry much weight. If you go to a PWR the theory is basically the same. There are two ways that I see former officers get into my plant (a BWR); as a non-licensed operator or as a system engineer.

[NuclearJoe]

After reading this whole discussion its obvious that the "big brain/big boss" mentality is not a Navy nuke thing or commericial nuke thing, its a plain old nuke thing.

So I pose this question for all you salty civilians...

If an interviewer was to as me "How do you feel your Navy training has prepared you for a career in commercial nuclear power?" how would you respond,,,

I'd say that it taught me the basics of plant / reactor operations. But more importantly, I learned the process of qualifying on a plant.

[Roll Tide]

If an interviewer was to ask me "How do you feel your Navy training has prepared you for a career in commercial nuclear power?"

Here is what you should say:
"As a former Navy Nuke, I know more about the job I am interviewing for than the people doing the interviews. Get out of my way and I will go save commercial nuclear power in the same manner I singlehandedly saved naval nuclear power!"

That is assuming you are putting in for the same job I am.   

If it is a different job, then you should say:
"I learned how to accomplish complex evolutions within a team setting. I learned how important attention to detail is. And I learned to always train the new guy right, because he will be the one relieving me down the road."

(On second thought, you can use the good answer if they are hiring more than one person!) 

[Fermi2]

There's a couple RX theory differences in a commercial PWR. Power follows Steam Demand but one has to do some manipulations with Tave. Doppler and the Fuel design sort of skew things a bit.

The concept which really blew my mind was PDIL for Control Rods. For a given power you have to ensure the Control Rods are withdrawn enough to shutdown the reactor. That was quite a concept that actually makes sense once you learn the theory.

And Boron... Putting acid in a reactor. Who'd of thunk it!!

Tell an interviewer the Navy Nuke program taught you how to learn quickly, have discipline, work accurately even when no one is watching, and how to identify when something is going wrong so you can take action to corect it. It does all those things quite well.



Mike

[nukeET1]

Speaking of theory.  If you do happen to go to a BWR, forget everything you have ever learned about reactor theory (well ok, not everything but most!)

Boilling in the core, void fractions?, lowering reactor water level on purpose???  Rx power does not follow steam demand,   Everything is contaminated!!!  WHY, WHY would they do such at thing!!! Blasphomy in Navy standards! 
137 control rods.... and you can only move ONE at a time!!!! (SLOOOOOW Startups... easy as you go)
I still have to tell myself there is no secondary... no secondary.. only primary... even steam = primary.  Very strange indeed.

ex-nukeet1

[Fermi2]

Boiling actually occurs in a PWR core, not a whole lot of it but it occurs.

I remember when I first started getting my license at a BWR and they told me under certain conditions you lower water level below top of active fuel to control power. My first thought was INSANITY!!. Now it makes perfect sense why, but  after being ingrained with the Navies Thou Shalt Now Let The Core Uncover....

At first I thought only 137 Control Rods, what type of BWR is nukeET1 at. Then I remembered Oyster Creek is a smaller boiler with 5 REcirc Loops, no Jet Pumps.

I'm not sure how far along you are in your training but I'm sort of assuming Oyster Creek has an ADS as part of their ECCS. Basically I think they just put that system in there as a Test Question Generator because the very first thing you do in the Emergency Procedures is turn it off!!!

The Reactor side is called the NSSS, the "Secondary" side is the BOP.

Mike