Senior Reactor Operator

[JnyMac]

No thanks to the BWR.  I like doing secondary rounds without RP coverage.

[PapaBear765]

I concur with Mike (Broadzilla) that monkeys are the ideal operators of choice for naval submarines.  I repeat the common the phrase around here: I have the experience to know.  I stood RO on my boat for my spring '03 deployment in the Gulf region... for those who knows what that means I won't elucidate.

The LT who started the thread thinks too highly of naval operators.  I've known a lot of officers who live another world; unbeknownst to them, their engine room watch standers know more than they do.

Donovan, ET1(SS)

[M1Ark]

No thanks to the BWR.  I like doing secondary rounds without RP coverage.

You've obviously never been to a BWR.

[M1Ark]

I am qualified EOOW (SRO) on two different naval reactor plants, S5W and S8G.  Does Naval qualifications carry much weight in the civilian world. 

Much, much simpler in design.  The truly tough part of the commercial SRO position is learning all of the legal aspects of the job.  Technical specifications (legal document) Nuregs, Reg Guides, ACADS, ODCM...etc.

[M1Ark]

It seems that I pissed some people off by comparing an EOOW to an SRO.  I realize that the size of the plant is significantly different, but from an operations standpoint, it seems that Naval plants require more oversight due to the constant power flucuations (transients), ie. speed changes of the submarine. 

LOL...10 minutes later...LOL

Good one.

Ultimately an EOOW is in charge of an operating nuclear reactor, same as an SRO.  He has a reactor operator working directly for him, along with an electrical operator and throttleman, along with all of the engineering watchstanders in the engineroom.  To say that an " EOOW is not equivalent to an SRO. It's not equivalent to a Reactor Operator in a Commercial Plant." seem a bit inaccurate, but what do I know. 

Yeah!  What do you know?

You barked out orders to the RO, EO, Throttleman, EWS and the ERS.  They made it happen.  They were the ones that actually knew what was going on and who knew how to run the unit.  It's alot easier to say,"ERS make the Main Engines ready to answer all bells", than it is to actually do it.

The next time you're on watch as the almighty EOOW.  Take a good look at your watchstanders.  Half of them are smarter than you and could qualify EOOW and be a better watch officer than you. Also, when the Eng gives you an order thats a turd, you tell the chief who tells the leading first of the division who sells it to his crew of 34 disgruntled E-5's and E-4's and gets them to do it without anarchy.  Who in that chain was the real leader?

You?

You earn your way in the commercial world.  How good are you at wiping up lube oil?

[Fermi2]

During my whole life as a BWR sailor I never needed Rad Con coverage to go into areas covered by rounds. In fact I've found I need Rad Con coverage more in the PWR world to go into areas that I could have accessed in the BWR world.

Until the advent of HWC I could go just about anywhere in a Boiler.

Mike

[hamsamich]

That's not entirely fair.  There are plenty of good EOOWs out there.  Alot of them realized they could float thru on the backs of blueshirts, but some of them were good, and I knew this because our EOs and ROs would say whether or not they could handle things or not.  I bet plenty of Ex Navy EOs, ROs and EOOWs would make fine SROs in todays commercial world.  And even though it doesn't suit me, the fact that EOOWs had to play more of the political BS game and deal with all the other officers gives them some help in the management games played in some operations dept.

[Fermi2]

I think M1Ark realizes there are good EOOWs who would and have made good SROs in the commercial world after all a good nuke is a good nuke regardless of pedigree. The original poster tried to imply that being an EOOW is equivalent to being an SRO and that's the issue. It's not and it's not even close.

Mike

[ChiefRocscooter]

OK here is another point of view via a "Real no s____ sea story".
On My boat after the CO qualified a JO as EOOW, the skipper would come back during that EOOWs 1st watch and scram the plant from AMR2 UL (with ENG and ETT in tow).
I was stand RO when this rather pompus (ring knocker) JO took the watch then proceded to tell us he knew what the CO was going to do , and that we were not to try and make him look bad by doing things without his orders/concurance (no suggestion!!! "I am the EOOW and Know what to DO!!).
After the wink wink nudge nudge bretween RO/EO/Th man we were AYE AYE sir yes sir!
So.... Skipper scram plant and wanders into manuvering in time to see me shifting pumps and cutting out alarms (EO tripping TG shifting MGs to Gen, maning phones (and so on).  Once we completed our immediate actions we stood (well sat actually) by for orders, actuall the TH man was barking out questions he was getting from the Conn, while the EO was braking out the reports from the space (me and the AMR2 UL watch were on the phone telling jokes (ok not really).
During this time the "EOOW" was fumbling thru the RPM and trying to repeat all the reports (not doing very because the EO (who did a great Bill Murry) just kept droning on
This last for about 60 seconds (those who know realize that 60 sec is like a life time when the skipper is staringat you!!).  The only thing getting hotter was the CO (guessin he was putting hot more decay heat than the core, second to him was the ENG.  (heres the good part)
SO now knowing what was going on (he was smart and figured out quickly) the CO told the "EOOW", "You are relieved, I have the watch as EOOW , THrottleman roport to Conn that CO has the watch as EOOW" (wish I could of had a picture of the OOD's face then.  HE continued on "MR Blak___ you are to report to my stateroom now!"  about a second later he says" belay that you just stand there and watch this!"
He then ordered me as RO to take charge of manuvering and conduct a FRS" (he even made the ENG plot the board while the JO watched!)
OK so I, the EO, Th man did just that got plant back to green band, answering the ordered bell with TG's online.  All done with no input from CO, ENG, or "EOOW".  Once we secured the phones the CO ordered the ENG to assume the watch and told JO that NOW he could report to his stateroom!
The JO left and CO chewed our butts for how 2 mins, his point was that we were never to let the EOOW fail no matter how big a pompus ass he was (skipper knew the JO, like I said he was bright man).
The JO had to stand U/I under every watch station (Ithink it was two watches each) before he could stand EOOW.
Moral of the story: EOOW is optional in most cases, operators know what to do without them,  Officer have thier purposes but they do not "operate" nuclear power plants!! (In fact if one tried to touch my control rods I was alway told I could slap thier hand!!
A good EOOW is part of the team not tell it what to do (the best EOOWs are the one that listen for the problems and point them out, usually we solve them once we catch them)

OK that was quite long but thought it offered perspective given this thread.

Rob

[Fermi2]

The real big picture on this is

1: If you can keep your head when things fall apart

2: Process information quickly and prioritize what is relevant and needs to be acted upon

3: Accept input from your watchstanders.

4: Have a good feel for what happened to the plant and where it is heading BEFORE it gets there.


You should be able to supervise a control room regardless of your background. Those by the way are the BARE minimum skills for an SRO.

To say a Navy EOOW can do this simply because he is an EOOW is preposterous and unrealistic.

Mike

[MLew44]

I was a Navy EOOW (enlisted). I'm now an SRO at a PWR. In my view, each position has its challenges. However, you can learn a Navy plant in a couple of years, inside & out; not possible at a commercial plant no matter how smart you (think you) are. I think the complexity of commercial plant makes it much tougher to rely SOLELY on your own judgment, knowledge, experience.  As a licensed SRO, it would be disastrous for me to think I could do that. I try to constantly get advice from others I work with -- that includes non-licensed operators, ROs, I&C, Chemistry, HP, Maintenance, dozens of others. I'm real interested in not screwing up.

[ET2Nuke]

Hey, man. You still see it. I ended up going to BOOST and then ROTC. Didn't have to go back in b/c of the drawdown. Now going to b-school here in Chicago. So, I went to a consulting firm presentation (McKinsey) and found out one of the consultants was a nuke officer at one time. I thought we would have a good time talking, etc. Once he finds out I was enlisted, conversation definitely turns for the worse. What a j**k. Things never change.

[Fermi2]

Hey, man. You still see it. I ended up going to BOOST and then ROTC. Didn't have to go back in b/c of the drawdown. Now going to b-school here in Chicago. So, I went to a consulting firm presentation (McKinsey) and found out one of the consultants was a nuke officer at one time. I thought we would have a good time talking, etc. Once he finds out I was enlisted, conversation definitely turns for the worse. What a j**k. Things never change.

I think you're being hypsersensitive.

Mike

[Marlin]

I thought we would have a good time talking, etc. Once he finds out I was enlisted, conversation definitely turns for the worse. What a j**k. Things never change.

Lets not condemn everyone for the actions of a few. We all experienced officers that were jerks but in my experience no more than other enlisted I worked with. While in Newport News I played in a local Rugby club that had three Navy sub officers and one Airforce fighter pilot. There was no social barrier between any of us (away from the base) we even liked the lawyer who played with us. In fact the most personable man on the team was a LtCommander from one of the other boats in overhaul he knew more socially unacceptable rugby songs than anyone else in the club.

[ChiefRocscooter]

Come on now Marlin, are you saying the % of jerks was equal from E to O   I agree with you that there were plenty of jerks to go around, but the snobbery and high browed'ness that often came from the wardroom was far in excess of anything that came from the messdecks.  Afterall they had it programed into them, thier leadership training actually used to tell them how they were better than enlisteds, most especially them ring knockers! The best Officers were the ones who saw thru that crap and became part of the crew insted of insisting on being over the crew.  I learned to over many years that most could be shown they were humans too and that some were jerks (and likely were before Navy too) and nothing could change that!!

Rob

[Marlin]

That was my experience on the boats, my Navy was staffed during the "Draft" years which may have made a difference. I also think people remember the jerks they can't ignore, another enlisted can easily be avoided and forgotten. If you were from the nose cone you probably thought the nukes aft were jerks even though we didn't think that way about ourselves. If you were an ELT the rest of M-Div thought you were a prima donna. Its all perspective.

[ET2Nuke]

True, I may have been hypersensitive, but this guy was a bit snobbish. Was kind of a downer. He even graduated from the USNA with a few of my BOOST classmates. When I mentioned their names, he really didn't want to talk much about it even though they were in the same regiment. Whatever, no big deal.

Here is a few stories for you. When I was a 4th class in ROTC, the battalion commander went nuke.  Was a realy pompous dude. Story makes its way back to the unit that while at prototype, he starts freaking out during quals and says to the MM1, "I order you give me the answer!" or something like that. While it could be an urban legend, I and this other nuke mid (surface guy) just shook our heads and laughed. Pretty sad at the same time and we COULD picture him saying that.

While in Holy Loch, a certain BM3 who was the coxswain of the LCM8 was trying to steer the boat in pretty heavy weather. An 0-5 was in the pilot house with him and asked the cox a question. Being pretty busy, the BM3 said, "What?" because he didn't hear him. Ends up, the 0-5 lays into him right there. Later, the Div O at boat ops brings the BM3 down to the squadron offices at the commanders request. In front of everyone there the cdr makes the bm3 apologize for saying "What?" and not, "What, sir?" This story is a no-sh**ter. I was down there visiting a friend from BE/E. I saw the apology and asked my friend what was up. That was when he told me the story.

Yes I met some excellent officers, guys who really cared, and I worked hard for those guys. Still, the ones that can ruin your day (or make you get out all together) are the ones you remember.

[Fermi2]

It's cool. I know the frustration of being talked down to by someone who thinks he's superior by pedigree vice ability. It's not just confined with to Naval Officers. I know many find that shocking coming from me given what I've said in the past about Naval Officers so I feel I should explain something that those who know me in person know quite well. I have NOTHING againsy Naval Officers at all. In fact one of my favorite people at my old plant was a Naval Commander who at one time was my STA. He was an Academy grad and I loved having him on shift. He could take a joke and give it back quite well. In fact he once told me he never felt accepted there until he came to Ops. His biggest personality fault was being a U of M fan. I currently work with at least two ex Naval Officers. One works as a Unit Supervisor on another shift, the other works as the SM of the shift on which I'm currently doing my 520 Hours Under Instruction time in order to get my brandy newey SRO License. Both are EXCELLENT guys who I like and respect very much. Since I've been working with the SM I've come to respect his judgement and ability to apply pure common sense. It appears to me those who have been working for him seem to like being on his shift.

What I DO resent and WILL refute 100% of the time regardless of anyones feelings is when someone thinks a Naval Officer is equivalent to being an SRO because it's not even close, quite simply they are not. I will also challenge when some hot shot think just because he did well in the Navy means he/she will automatically do well in he commercial world. It's the same as thinking the guy who gained a 1000 yards as a Freshman in High School Division Podunk will gain 1000 in the NFL the next year. While the games are essentially the same the way they are played is different and at a different pace.

Mike

[bigcris99]

Broadzilla said he was an enlisted qualified EOOW, but he also stated that he was in the Navy for only six years which is impossible.  You would have to be in the Navy a minimum of seven years as enlisted to qualify EOOW.

[ExDetailer]

Not true, I was qualified EOOW less than seven years. As a matter of fact, I know of alot of people that were qualified EOOW less than seven years.

[Fermi2]

At A1W when I showed up in 1985 there were 4 Enlisted EOOWs with 4 or 5 years experience. When I left there were 6, 2 with under 4 years experience.

Mike

[M1Ark]

As far as standing Control Room Supervisor (SRO) being difficult, well once you get sentenced out to be a Ops Work Liaison or CRS Admin or whatever the equivalent is that deals with scheduling and protective tagging and support and maintenance and planning and engineering implementation, CRS is a joke and you realize that a severely retarded drunken monkey could stand as the onshift SRO. 

A drunken monkey could perform the job of a Control Room Supervisor if the CRS Admin as you described is performing their job flawlessly.  This is rarely the case and a GOOD CRS not only has to do their own job but also track every move and decision the CRS Admin is doing to protect himself and the crew.  Not only does a good CRS track the CRS Admin but also the I&C Supervisor, the Electrical Maint. Supervisor and all of the techs working on the Unit.

Also it boils down to responsibility.  The Control Room Supervisor goes down in flames for every decision he/she makes as well as decisions being made without his knowledge.  More than once I was seconds from a reactor scram due to a "good idea" concocted by a well-intentioned CRS Admin.


The following sentence could be said for any job of responsibility.
A drunken monkey could perform the job <insert job here>.

[Roll Tide]

As far as standing Control Room Supervisor (SRO) being difficult, well once you get sentenced out to be a Ops Work Liaison or CRS Admin or whatever the equivalent is that deals with scheduling and protective tagging and support and maintenance and planning and engineering implementation, CRS is a joke and you realize that a severely retarded drunken monkey could stand as the onshift SRO.  CRSA cannot be believed until you have the job, I didn't believe that comment but now I do.  Now I believe that CRS in the control room is normally a pretty easy job (sometimes hectic but nothing like the other one). 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt: IF OPS has such ownership of the scheduling process that all of the feedback previously given regarding the schedule is flawlessly implemented, the CRS job would feel easier than a scheduling job. But when things are ugly, like most plants, then every OPS signature means your reputation is on the line. At most plants, only the SRO that actually signs for it will have real consequences for the OOPS that takes the unit off line.

Ask your favorite NRC resident how they view Scheduling vs. OPS.

[Len61]

"I have to agree with the majority comments in that as a Chief Machinery Operator I could have started up the entire secondary plant by myself without a procedure."

Hey 30378wby, as a former CMO, I have to say that it was very satisfying to know I could take the entire engine room from cold to underway almost single handedly. Actually given the state of the watch team after liberty call in one French port I did just that.
Really loved that part of my job in the Nav, it was all the other BS that sucked.
By the way, Nuke school class 8507, prototype 8601 (NY, MARF), CVN 69 (IB to all you IKE sailors out there).

[rlbinc]

"Enlisted men are stupid, but they are sly, cunning, and bear considerable watching."
-1910 US Naval Officers Manual

I would rather have a root canal than train an Engineer in a simulator. The problem with most ex-Officers is that they are typical Engineers. They lock in and analyze the crap out of an Auto Trip annunciator, but can't tell what Power, Pressure, and Level is, and have no idea which safety systems have actuated or failed to actuate.

There's some gas on the campfire, huh?

And, uh, yeah. I still respect your service , Sir.