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Author Topic: how hot is clean?  (Read 160119 times)

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alphadude

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2005, 07:09 »
HEY SHONKA TOYS .... A little bird told me not to buy your competitors stock... seems all their work at the big 3 buildings is in question... can you say ROOT CAUSE!!

Need to send Smurf  daddy and mama carmen the bill.....



alphadude .. pending brain surgeon
« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 07:10 by alphadude »

Shonkatoys

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2005, 07:38 »
Now now Alphadude, Where is the love?  Now back to how hot is clean.  Well if you are given so many pico curies per gram of soil as a limit and you are over,  just mix in more soil and it is clean. dilution is the solution to pollution.  When I was with the state they took a compoite sample of Milk at Mayfields.  So depending on which milk trucks came  in and where they were from.  Some came from Virginia.  That a good piece from Oak Ridge again dispersal is the solution. Then when I was with the state it was checking the deer with TWRA.  Too much strontium in the foreleg bone or too much cesium in the liver and the deer is gone.  I saw A guy sobbing because he could not keep his 13 point deer.  They at least let him take a picture of it before they packed it up for the incinerator. So when hunting Oak Ridge the further you hunt from X10 the better not too many K25 and Y12 deer bound for the incinerator.Now there is poop samples for u235.  I will let someone else explain that!!!!

alphadude

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2005, 08:10 »
SHONKATOYS   as these yankees says up here "I gots yer luv right here!"

well i was on topic how hot is clean may be a good argument that would finally get answered by the "B" company

atomicarcheologist

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2005, 04:39 »
Oh, my.  Doesn't any one like to play here?  There's so much smoke on these mirrors I'm getting concerned about my lung dosage.  Folks!  What I am trying to do here is explore the knowledge base of this site for information, possibly answers, and maybe even a little fun. But all that I am seeing posted is quick quotes from Nuclear Engineering Cliff Notes, discussion about different scenarios than what was put forth, and (of course) the fun.  Now, there is nothing wrong with fun, trust me, I enjoy it also.  But and comma can we do some numbers, please?
Let's try a set scenario.  That way the textbook twiddlers will be able to engage in the thread. 
There is an old concrete building in an urban sprawl.  Let's use Newark, although is any one has a problem with that, name a different scene.
This building was home to a laboratory which was licensed by the NRC.  The license was issued for P32, S35, I131, and Co60.  The operations ceased on January 1, 1999.  All Final Status Surveys have been completed.  There was one spot of contamination detected.  It is 50000dpm/100cm2.  There is no loose contamination associated with this spot and none detected during the course of the FSS.  The total area involved with this source is 100cm2.  It is on a wall at 1 Meter elevation from the floor.  It is totally unfeasible to remove anymore of the wall as it is an outside wall.  The readings on the exterior surface of the building are all congruent with background readings of similar materials.
I say this building is going to be delicensed.
You are welcome to make up your own scenarios.

Offline Rennhack

Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2005, 05:00 »
You are welcome to make up your own scenarios.

You have a river behind an old weapons facility, reading 10 mr/hr... never liscensed....

Oops, wrong scenario...

Shonkatoys

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2005, 06:02 »
You see a Mushroom cloud with the wind blowing in your face.  A few minutes later your tactical dosimeters purple viles all turn gold.  You start blowing chunks, does 5K 15K matter?

Your in a Helicopter flying across a fallout zone doing air to ground coorelation factors and the fallout is reading 100 R on the ground. When do you start letting your tanks drive through this?  how about infantry walking through this. hint,  There is a 7 10 rule for fallout which means for every 7 hours your fallout decays by a factor of 10,  Tanks provide shielding of 90 percent, troops no shielding,  troops walk at 4 miles an hour, tanks go at 45 miles an hour, the  fallout zone is 10 miles across, also as you enter the fallout zone the fallout is decaying as you walk or drive.  Also your troops tactical dosimeter is already reading 50 R.  You only allowed another 100 R  to complete your mission for a total does of 150 R. The tank is obvious, What about the troops??

halflifer

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2005, 06:41 »
and how does the concept of -dpm's fit into this?....as in 167gcpm(measured)-240cpm(bkg) /15%(eff)= -487 dpm
 ::)

Shonkatoys

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2005, 10:27 »
Or better stated how hot in R an Hour for a tank to start crossing this fallout zone so that it is clean enough not to exceed the mission limit of 150 R Dose?

How about troops?   How hot is clean?

You are a nuclear target analyst, You Advise Generals on how close to drop nuclear weapons to your own troops.  You have three criteria, 1 negligible risk which means slight risk to your troops, 2. Moderate Risk some risk to your troops and 3. emergency risk which means you may have to wipe them all out.  You are drinking coffee with the General staff about 15 miles from ground zero, Your 10,000 troops are about to be overrun by 100,000 troops.  You make the call!!  How hot is clean??

Your Sub Base in the USA is being over run by fanatics, They get a hold of some nuclear subs with nuclear weapons and head out to sea.  What is the smallest nuclear weapon you can drop on your homeland?  How hot is clean?  1KT 100 KT 1Megaton?

raymcginnis

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2005, 09:58 »
Man do I love this topic!  It went South a little, but it is back on track again.

Gosh am I great HP?  Yes, I am one of the best that God ever made.  Did I do NRRPT?  Nope, never felt the need to prove myself that way, although I could pass it.  I went to school and got a bachelors and masters degree in IT.

My @$$ is on the line here, because I don't hide behind a fake name.  My real name is out there when I post these things.  Think about it! 

These things need discussion, for sure.  OK, back on topic.  Some people in EPA and protestors want nuclear to go to E-6 risk limits.  That is impossible, becaue of natural background.  To go to E-6 limits, we would have to dig up the entire planet and bury it on Mars, LOL!

Clean is a thing negotiated with your regulating bodies.  Clean is what they accept. 

We have a good crew of people here.  We go with the ALARA concept.  We basically get rid of it all and that so far has been "reasonably achievable"  We have a lower limit than the rest of the country's nuclear sites, 15 mRem per year as opposed to 25 mRem per year.  We go to non-detectable all of the time, and it is always reasonable.

We may be the first site to achieve release, a few years from now.  From experience, if you can achieve this, do it!

I know that ALARA concepts may dictate different results from other sites.  In that case, you have to look at limits and leave residual radioactivity behind.  It can be done, but speculation and innuendo would agitate people who disagree.  E-6 is not achievable, but ALARA is.  We have proven that here.

ALARA is your best friend!

raymcginnis

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2005, 04:20 »
Marssim,

Of course I realize that.  Ten years ago, I gave myself a belly chuckle when we were remediating a contaminated soil area.  My non-nuclear friends asked me what I was doing.  I said I was helping dig up radioactive soil.  They asked me "What do you do with it?"  I said "We bury it," LOL!

Good point for other readers of this thread.  Thanks for reminding me and bringing up this important concept.  The non-useful radioactivity is being brought together in a just a few places.  Most of the time, you are right, it is someone else’s back yard.

Our commercial burial site in California looks like it will eternally be held up by lawyers and protesters.  Washington State’s moratorium has all but shut down out of state waste to Hanford.

The expense has really gone up.

Barley_Buddy

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2005, 10:44 »
ALARA should be ALATRA, As Long As The Regulator Approves. 

My company is working at a major site in CA.  It's a CERCLA site and has two regulators as far as release goes.  The state for buildings and the Fed EPA for the land areas.  Sorry Ray, we are releasing the land areas to E-6.  Risk, in the case of radioacitve materials and the EPA, has everything to do with the linear non-threshold theory (for those that believe, I guess it applies....."theory" has a different meaning to me). To spend massive $$$ on a "theory" just doesn't make sense to me.  Try seeing < 0.2 pCi/g of Cs-137 with a hand held instrument.  Ra-226 is at 0.6 pCi/g.  You live by gamma spec and at times, even that takes some effort to prove results.  We've actually released some of the areas, but it's been a major effort and ALARA has nothing to do with it.

Surveys and release now have everything to do with statistics and nothing to do with the technician or the actual "risk", in my opinion.  There is no skill of the craft.  As a matter of fact, using technicians decreases your total efficiency due to variance in the geometry, inconsistent speed for scans, etc.

The fact that you can't measure the associated dose rate or contamination level at E-6 risk has no bearing on discussions with the EPA (Environmental Panic Agency...).  It's your problem.  Prove it.  I still remember the basis for Reg Guide 1.86 and have applied it to many sites in the last 30 years.  I hate to think of the "risk" I've left for future generations....(that's sarcasm for those that might miss it...)

You can go to the EPA web site and run numbers by nuclide and scenario.  You might be very suprised by the numbers for Preliminary Remediation Goals (PRGs).  If you have the NRC as the lead agency, thank your lucky stars.  They at least still maintain some reason and some foothold in science.  Hard to measure what you can't see. 

Just my opinion......what do I know.....

Stay hungry...stay happy.

Barley_Buddy

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2005, 11:03 »
what do you have to run resrad 'n a resident farmer scenario?  wut iffen yer ona site that ain't never gonna revert to farm material?

Younz havta prove that tha place won't ever be used for agriculture.  Try ta get a regulator to sign off on dat.

raymcginnis

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2005, 01:53 »
Barley_Buddy,

You just stressed the point that I was trying to make.  We went with 15 mRem per year ( 25 mRem per year for NRC) with a family farm scenario.  Then we try to go as far below that number as possible.  We almost always go below NDA.  That is where the big questions from protestors come in.  What is your MDC and what is background?  I am sure on all of our releases that everything is gone, yet we have new agencies reporting that we are leaving 98% of the radioactivity behind, based on our 15 mRem per year limit.

We always try to get it all and I know that we do.  The real problem with e-6 is that natural soil, in our area was above e-6 levels, before anything humans did here with technology.  It cannot be achieved here without digging to the other side of the Earth.  These protestors would have us dispose of the lava, once we got to the molten core, because of the natural uranium content there.

This is what is ridiculous about e-6 release levels.  These limits were created for man-made stuff, like solvents and acids and such.  These things have no background, so they are easily measurable on the Earth at e-6 levels.  Radiation is present all over the planet.  The time taken to measure e-6 above natural background levels would be way above ALARA and ALATRA.  It is just not reasonable.  The people who contest this should just back off.  ALARA is what it is all about.  The protestors are not reasonable by any audience account.  They only represent their misguided paranoia. 

They would have us destroy the sun to get rid of solar radioactivity.  What reasonable person would do that? 

That is my real point in joining this thread.

Offline darkmatter

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Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2005, 12:02 »
How hot is clean? Sheeshh..... anyone not in the industry reading this thread will really be confused. The answer is of course, Nothing is non-radioactive if you use sensitive enough equipment. The road techs know you frisk or sample however the local supervision tells you and either it goes or it doesn't.

As for that 50K fixed spot on a concrete wall, release the site with a sticker on that spot saying " do not eat this concrete spot" That label makes as much sense as the warning with a new microwave oven telling you "not to dry animals in the oven"
"Never underestimate the power of a Dark Klown"

Darkmatters website is no more, nada, gonzo, 
http://darkmatter.nukeworker.net.istemp.com  this will get you there, but I can't update it anymore. Maybe nukeworker will host personal sites eventully

raymcginnis

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2005, 12:51 »
Darkmatter,

Yes, this thread has turned into a tornado.   No one meant it to, but this is how important this subject is to everyone!  Because it is different from state to state everyone has a different opinion about it. 

I say let the tornado go until it dies out.  One day we may all have a one group HP opinion about this.  I'd say, don't look for it tomorrow.

I still say this is a good thread and it is time for more discussion.  Everyone, keep pushing your opinion!  Yours is just as important as mine or any other person who jumps in on this thread.

Yes the multiple opinions about this topic can be confusing to a newbe.  I have been around for a while.  I am able to sort it all out.  There are some good ideas being shared with this thread.  I actcually have a smile on my face when I read all of the replies!  Darkmatter, I loved and understand your sheeshh, LOL!

alphadude

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2005, 06:54 »
You answered your own question, "All final status surveys completed"  Which means it passed what ever criteria established. 

Gosh i love playing with the words.

Shonkatoys

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2005, 12:10 »
There of course is Hormesis,  There has been numerous studies showing that a slight amount of Radiation is beneficial to ones health.  People living longer in areas of higher altitude and in areas of mineral deposits that give off more radiation.  There is a building in Taiwan that the steel in its structure was melted with a source. These people in this apartment building show less cancer than the average population. The dose to these people was approximately 5 R a year.  You also have the Cow nuker they had at X10 Oak Ridge these cows lived longer than regular cows.  Hormesis works with vitamins and medicine also.  None and you actually can have a negative effect, a little and you have a zero effect.  Optimal amount and you have your maximum positive effect,  slight over dose and you have a zero effect. And anything over you have a slight negative effect to  death at maximum dose. Therefore you may ask how clean is too clean.  Maybe we should distribute all the depleted uranium we have at Oak Ridge in small viles to everyone in the US  so they can get a hormetic effect and also clean up Oak Ridge. All your weak cells and rapidly dividing precancerous cells have a chance of being wiped out. Making a healthier you!!!  How clean is too clean?  I tell my wife that also. You clean too much and  kids have no chance of getting immunity in a too sterile environment.  So put up your cleaning rags and ask for your piece of Uranium for hormetic effect.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 12:25 by Shonkatoys »

jakester

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2005, 12:59 »
Can I wash down my peice of Uranium with some good 'ol fashioned radium water???

alphadude

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2005, 01:31 »
oh i forgot, somebody should have cored the wall to get the spot out, obviously a low bid job...

Shonkatoys

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2005, 02:19 »
No Washing the Uranium with Radium water :o  They had  a device in the 1930's I guess was the first attempt at hormesis.  The revigarator or something like that.  Unfortunately the radium  in the water depositd to the bone.  This is not good.  So  the hormesis  I  believe should be called vitamin R,  and should only be a external small radiation source and standards set by FDA :P.  No radium water to wash or grinding of the uranium to make a internal dose :P Vitamin R  How clean is too clean?

Offline Rennhack

Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2005, 04:09 »
No Washing the Uranium with Radium water :o  They had  a device in the 1930's I guess was the first attempt at hormesis.  The revigarator or something like that.  Unfortunately the radium  in the water depositd to the bone.  This is not good.  So  the hormesis  I  believe should be called vitamin R,  and should only be a external small radiation source and standards set by FDA :P.  No radium water to wash or grinding of the uranium to make a internal dose :P Vitamin R  How clean is too clean?

http://www.google.com/search?q=Revigator

http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/quackcures/quackcures.htm
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 04:15 by Rennhack »

atomicarcheologist

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2005, 06:18 »
No Washing the Uranium with Radium water :o  They had  a device in the 1930's I guess was the first attempt at hormesis. 

They used to gargle and take Radium as a tonic.  Not to mention spa usage.  Duh.  You'd be surprised where the labs where and alot about that industry.  It's been very beneficial to me.

atomicarcheologist

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2005, 06:20 »
You answered your own question, "All final status surveys completed"  Which means it passed what ever criteria established. 

Gosh i love playing with the words.
Scrabbler, are you?  Where I have worked, Final Status Survey is the last survey done.  Then the paperwork is compiled and submitted.  Then the license goes away, or not.  The survey completion does not necessarily indicate that passage has occured.

atomicarcheologist

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2005, 06:23 »
This is what is ridiculous about e-6 release levels.  These limits were created for man-made stuff, like solvents and acids and such.  These things have no background, so they are easily measurable on the Earth at e-6 levels.  Radiation is present all over the planet. 

Wouldn't it be fun to use as a background, the back-calculated amount of Uranium in the earth's upper soil levels when mankind made his presence?  That'd get the tree huggers in an environmental evolutionary spiral!

atomicarcheologist

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2005, 06:27 »
Younz havta prove that tha place won't ever be used for agriculture.  Try ta get a regulator to sign off on dat.

Perhaps, but I would challenge a NRC representative to prove to me that Newark is ever going to be able to be used as farmland without major challenging changes that would be much more engaging than a mere 50Kdpm/100cm2 spot on a building interior wall.

 


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