how hot is clean?

[atomicarcheologist]

I have done this nuclear thing for many years and I still feel safe.

I too, have more than a couple of decades in doing the nuclear thing, and yes I still feel safe.  Sometimes, while playing in the dirt, I don't feel as safe as I did swinging from the jib cranes in the power plants, but it's an OSHA thing, not an atomic agent.  Sometimes, while poking around in old structures and finding >500KDPM I get a little nervous, but that's because I think of all the people who have been where I am that didn't have a meter, training, or the slightest clue.  Then, when it's done, the fuzzies turn warm to the touch, again.

[alphadude]

i got an "eerie" feeling while on the test site... and the thorium site in baltimore didnt give warm fuzzy either...

[raymcginnis]

Sometimes, while poking around in old structures and finding >500KDPM I get a little nervous, but that's because I think of all the people who have been where I am that didn't have a meter, training, or the slightest clue.  Then, when it's done, the fuzzies turn warm to the touch, again.

I understand.  We mostly go into areas that noboby has ever entered now, as far as where our unknowns are.  This is a great site, which is why I have stayed here so long.  They did things by today's standards back in the 1960's even though they did not have to back then.  They were careful back then.

We do run into things hotter than expected from time to time.  We are lucky enough to to have experienced people who know to back off and regroup when that happens.

I know that this is off topic, but this original post has brought so many feelings and ideas from related topics, I don't see the harm now in replying to the posts.  This "how hot is clean" gets to the core of what we do and it naturally drives discussions on sidetracks.  I join in on the sidetracks also because I enjoy the discussions about all of this.

There is probably a paper for someone in this post. 

[alphadude]

Ray I think it has come full circle.. how hot is clean is basically contribution that would assume no more burden than provided by background.  as we have said, acceptable, low risk is the amount that would contribute no more burden than 25 mr/year on the resident farmer scene.  whats acceptable is what the regulations dictate for that particular industrial situation. (DOE, Hospitals, Power Plant Fence line etc.) what we do is provide the client with what the contract specifications call for any thing more is gratis. The scope of the question was somewhat gray but it did generate chatter.. which is always fun.

[atomicarcheologist]

The scope of the question was somewhat gray but it did generate chatter.. which is always fun.

I'm not trying to rain on the chatter parade.  However, since the original question was considered "gray" by some, other questions designed to elict thought provoking answers were posed in-line with the original.  To wit;

So, how much contamination can a licensee leave on their buildings' interior surfaces?

If you are allowed to leave 25 mr/yr, isn't that a lot more than 15Kdpm/100cm2 max per meter?

  Could we assume that 100K/100 cm2 of Co60 would be OK?  Could we go to 150K if it was only U238?  What would the transuranics work out to?

This building was home to a laboratory which was licensed by the NRC.  The license was issued for P32, S35, I131, and Co60.  The operations ceased on January 1, 1999.....


I can see where someone who was playing with Th in Balitmore might have a problem with the questions posed.  After all, I was laying with piles of Th in Baltimore Harbor in the mid 70s.  I guess that's why I make "gray" questions.

[raymcginnis]

Everyone is frustrated by this.  There is an old joke about an environmentalist in Seattle who died from a heart attack.  He had the heart attack when he witnessed a spotted owl eating a Pacific salmon.

We are all talking about "what is background," the original subject, but we are also indeed talking about what level of MDA is acceptable.  Do we really feel unsafe enough that samples must be counted for weeks to appease the e-6 people?  The tax dollars versus the risk just seem unreasonable to me.  As far as pollution goes, how can you slightly radioactively pollute an already radioactive Earth?  Yes there should be a release limit, but we should not have to clean up fallout that is barely indistinguishable from natural background, unless we pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to count each soil samples for 3 weeks.

Companies should not be held accoutable for natural radioactivity or fallout.

They should all clean all sites up to ALARA levels.  They should demonstrate that they are pretty sure that it is all gone.  We have a 15 mRem/yr limit, but we always go way below that.  Proving e-6 is very expensive though.  I am not for 3 week counting periods of samples nationwide.  I say dig until you see it no more.  When you know that you are below an acceptable MDA to your regulators, then you are done. 

We always go way below 15 mRem/yr.  We try to get it all.  The environmentalists don't believe this though.  This what causes all of the gray areas previously discussed.  We are accused of trying to leave harmful levels behind.  We never do that though.  We always try to get it all!

This is a matter of trust and perception, not of law, in my opinion.  For goodness sake, the Earth is radioactive.  I still say what is the difference between 390 mRem/year and 405 mRem/yr?  That is why I started the risk thread.  If someone can tell me this, then I will listen.  Otherwise, I cannot understand why this is even an important topic.  I do agree that it is affecting all of us and it needs to be discussed.  This is why I keep jumping in.

That is my 2 cents on this for today.

[SloGlo]

how hot is clean is basically contribution that would assume no more burden than provided by background. 

yeah, ok.  but iffen yer inna bkg like at grand central station, then yer fricken 25 mr/yr goes right outa the window, don't it now?  what's yer bkg in yer living room iffen yinz got a house built of granite stone in reading, pa?  what's yer bkg fer an office building built of poured concrete?  sumbuddy splain alla dis!  da weigh i reed this thread, it started off releasing a building.  i didn't see where the building wuz getting torn down 'n tomatoes planted.  what happens iffen yer releasing a building to be used as a building for non-nuclear occupational use?

[alphadude]

a released nuke building for non nuke can be controlled by local zonning laws. The resident farmer example covers the building released for residential use. (25 mr)

Grand Central Station is not a living space. The "bag lady scenarion" was not adopted by regulators.

the 25 mr is above bkg.

So, how much contamination can a licensee leave on their buildings' interior surfaces?    Depends on the radionuclide and the termination plan.

If you are allowed to leave 25 mr/yr, isn't that a lot more than 15Kdpm/100cm2 max per meter?   Of what radionuclide?

 Could we assume that 100K/100 cm2 of Co60 would be OK?  Could we go to 150K if it was only U238?  What would the transuranics work out to? What is the surface area?

I can see where someone who was playing with Th in Balitmore might have a problem with the questions posed.  After all, I was laying with piles of Th in Baltimore Harbor in the mid 70s.  If you are talking about WRG, this has been remediated and FSS. Levels of Th there were unacceptable and high risk. When we surveyed it, well over 100k dpm/100cm2 were found. (not fixed), and the area had been a work area for non-rad workers for years.(State of Md issue) That place is a legal can of worms.

[atomicarcheologist]

a released nuke building for non nuke can be controlled by local zonning laws. The resident farmer example covers the building released for residential use. (25 mr)

Grand Central Station is not a living space. The "bag lady scenarion" was not adopted by regulators.

the 25 mr is above bkg.

So, how much contamination can a licensee leave on their buildings' interior surfaces?    Depends on the radionuclide and the termination plan.

If you are allowed to leave 25 mr/yr, isn't that a lot more than 15Kdpm/100cm2 max per meter?   Of what radionuclide?

 Could we assume that 100K/100 cm2 of Co60 would be OK?  Could we go to 150K if it was only U238?  What would the transuranics work out to? What is the surface area?

I can see where someone who was playing with Th in Balitmore might have a problem with the questions posed.  After all, I was laying with piles of Th in Baltimore Harbor in the mid 70s.  If you are talking about WRG, this has been remediated and FSS. Levels of Th there were unacceptable and high risk. When we surveyed it, well over 100k dpm/100cm2 were found. (not fixed), and the area had been a work area for non-rad workers for years.(State of Md issue) That place is a legal can of worms.

OK

Your pick

We have been using 100cm2 all thread long.

It was not WRG.  It was out in the open, not in a building.  Historical review and diligence with survey techniques revealed many movement of the material over the previous time spans.  A very interesting  welcome to the world of environmental reclaimation.

[alphadude]

well that 100cm2 was from our experience and perspective. since you have a new faclility we would have to change perspectives.  answer the questions I posed back and then run RESRAD build and you will have your answer.. to the query.

[SloGlo]

alphadude... iffen i remember rite, that bit about local zoning laws controlling a released nuke building was bandered about on page won of this thread, but eye am not sure it was done seriously as they wuz talking bout doing it via occupations.
since ya gots the goods on me fer the grand central station thing, pleaz to reeliz i wuzant using it as a living space either, but since ya wanna go there.... what kinda discernible and attributable effects can be given based on the residents of landowne, pa who had living spaces  >/= 2 mr/hr?  alot of them wuz in existence for what, 80 years?  must be some kinda data available!

ya wanna new question?  iffen yer drilling fer oil in maryland, what is the dose limit of the material ya leave on the ground when ya finish? what's the dose limit on the tools and equipment ya take with ya?

[RDTroja]

If you are drilling for oil in maryland, take a short break to have your head examined.

[darkmatter]

How hot is clean? -------- still flogging a dead horse, I see.

Breathing oxygen causes cancer, life is fatal, risk analysis can not be defined without a knowledge and understanding of the facts. And just why should I let the government or anyone else tell me what is acceptable for my life?

[alphadude]

because you cannot control yourself.. within weeks you would be living wild on some tropical beach and not wearing clothing..

 hmmmm yea why should government rule me!!!

[SloGlo]

If you are drilling for oil in maryland, take a short break to have your head examined.

cranial scan complete.  garrett county has been a producer of oil and natural gas.  it's reserves are part of the appalachin basin.  the appalachin basin is a result of the catskill delta depositions ~4e8 years ago.

so what's the answer to the question?

[atomicarcheologist]

Tsk, tsk, tsk.  SloGlo, you don’t play fair!  Imagine, asking a question that people who know, do not want to answer, and people who don’t know, don’t want to hear. 

[alphadude]

my reply is who cares?? NORMs have been lobbied hard by API and are laying around every where there is an old drilling station. those primordials are rather nasty. but unless its in a facility im doing D&D on..... cant see it from here. 

[raymcginnis]

you know spotted owl taste just like bald eagle.. kinda stringy

OMG, Alphadude!  You ate the spotted owl that ate the Pacific salmon.  LOL!  Don't move to Seattle.

[raymcginnis]

my reply is who cares?? NORMs have been lobbied hard by API and are laying around every where there is an old drilling station. those primordials are rather nasty. but unless its in a facility im doing D&D on..... cant see it from here.

Alphadude,

Local regulators care here as well as environmentalists (public meetings) who are insisting that we get rid of all of the radiation on the Earth, including the radiation from above-ground testing from all nuclear testing Countries.  Soon we will all be defining boundaries between sites about who cleans up which portion of the entire planet from fallout.  These people make money at complaining.  Next they will go after us to clean up natural radioactivity.  If they accomplish that, they will find ways to make laws to exterminate all the people that had anything to do with the cleanup, because we will expose members of the public with the miniscule amount of radiation in our bodies, during social events.  Eventually they will all commit suicide for their cause when they discover that they also are radioactive from potassium, thorium and uranium in their bodies from their food.  It is the end of Humanity if we let them win, LOL!

[raymcginnis]

yeah, ok.  but iffen yer inna bkg like at grand central station, then yer fricken 25 mr/yr goes right outa the window, don't it now?

That enhances my point.  Imagine being a facility where you handled tons of natural uranium and tried to release the soil on the site, once you knew that you were clean.  Imagine that you were a mile away from Grand Central Station (GCS) and tried to prove that none of your stack releases got into the building.

I say so what.  Try to sue me if you ride the train from GCS every day and get cancer.  I also say in LA, you breathed smog every day.  Prove that a few gamma rays from the local Nuke site, after cleanup gave you cancer.  I say in Denver, prove that a few extra mRem/yr gave you cancer after living in smog and being a mile above sea level and getting cosmic rays gave you cancer.

The people who give in to these lowered limits are all talking to lawyers, not CHPs.  It is time to stand up to both sides of lawyers.  Ours should not live in fear, because we all know what we are doing.  The other side's should find another ambulance, because we know what we are doing.


Stuff like that.

[raymcginnis]

So, how much contamination can a licensee leave on their buildings' interior surfaces?

If you are allowed to leave 25 mr/yr, isn't that a lot more than 15Kdpm/100cm2 max per meter?

  Could we assume that 100K/100 cm2 of Co60 would be OK?  Could we go to 150K if it was only U238?  What would the transuranics work out to?

AA,

Now this question I can answer.  Even tough there is accepted software out there that is isotope specfic, the regulators for surface contamination still like the old numbers.  You bring up a good point for others to learn from.  Disributed activity is differnent from deposited activity which is different from activated activity.  They all have to be looked at differently.  In D&D or remediation, the math can became quite different for all 3 situations.  Which computer program or formula from a book can change from day to day do you use?  If your site is small, you may find that one or two combinations work until the end of the job.  My experience is that the unknown can make you scramble to rethink your thinking. 

I say stick with the trio thinking of regulations for surface contamination (apha limit, beta limit, and different for certain isotopes), until RESRAD Build is accepted nation wide as a way to release buildings to be left in place.  That may happen, but Congress will have to act on it.  For most common isotopes beta emitting isotopes the limit is 5000 dpm per 100 cm2.

[bmr176]

Maybe this is one of those rumor things but I've heard if a dirty bomb was detonated in D.C. we would never be able to release some of the Government buildings because the granite and marble used in their construction were mined at greater than the current EPA release limits.  What do we do about stuff like that?  I have no idea

[Shonkatoys]

You would run a cumaltive freguency distribution of known clean granite and marble   You can see one of these at.  http://www.nukeworker.com/pictures/thumbnails410.html  This will give you a zero baseline for your background.  You then would run your survey.  Of course it would help if you had a Surface contamination monitor that does its own Cumaltive freguency distribution to compare it against clean  granite and marble, but hey I am prejudice, I work for Shonka>   You can also look at the cumaltive freguency distribution for your fired picture I put in this group of pictures,  It shows how a person was surveying the wrong material and fasifying data and the cumaltive freguency distribution caught him. And as Trump says, your fired!!!!

[alphadude]

Shonka is right, the dirty bomb place could be surveyed and cleaned up. Just don't go low bid with some company that comes  in with hand held friskers. (listen for the clicks..)   

[SloGlo]

my reply is who cares?? NORMs have been lobbied hard by API and are laying around every where there is an old drilling station. those primordials are rather nasty. but unless its in a facility im doing D&D on..... cant see it from here. 

duz ennybuddy remember whena rem was a rem, 'n a dpm a dpm?  so it's better iffen yer picnicing with yer girlfriend, grandkids, local trout unlimited chapter (pick one, all, err make up anudder), 'n yer buttocks is parked ona pile of drill scale that's reading 200 mr/hr than it is to be eradicating hemaroydz wit a coupla extry dpm of 60?  is it rilly too much two care unless our pay ist directly effected?  duz yer body know da difference between the gammies interacting with it?  duz yer bank know why that paycheck wuz originated that you deposited?