Help | Contact Us
NukeWorker.com
NukeWorker Menu how hot is clean? honeypot

Author Topic: how hot is clean?  (Read 178196 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PWHoppe

  • Forum Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 823
  • Karma: 2024
  • Gender: Male
  • CONFIRMED!: The dumbest man on the planet
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #200 on: Jul 25, 2005, 06:42 »
I agree with SloGlo  :o, what we are talking about gets into the realm of silliness don't you think? If your talking a few dpm who cares? There will come a time when we see one dpm we shutdown the world, how silly is that?
If a chicken and a half can lay an egg and a half in a day and a half, how many days will it take a grasshopper with a rubber foot to kick a hole in a tin can?

Forum rules..http://www.nukeworker.co

alphadude

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #201 on: Jul 26, 2005, 07:08 »
its all about LET.  trout streams and drilling brine are not likely to be in the same area.

stownsend

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #202 on: Jul 26, 2005, 09:19 »
Local regulators care here as well as environmentalists (public meetings) who are insisting that we get rid of all of the radiation on the Earth, including the radiation from above-ground testing from all nuclear testing Countries.(Quote from Ray)

I love it when these people insist I clean up to greater than common sense levels because my wife said she likes to sleep under a roof that doesn't leak and eat three times a day.When I have to remove RAM from one area to another I'm employed and I hear "cha-ching" in my sleep.After working at Electric Boat and building houses I made my second best choice of my life and joined the Military and learned to be an HP.After 28 years I can still say there's alot of money to be made in confusion.If we didn't have to clean to extreme levels the ranks of HP would be short and the unemployment lines long.Long live the Environmentalist.

alphadude

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #203 on: Jul 26, 2005, 09:27 »
well, its not about the environmentalist- its about real estate. clean up to high standards benefits the future potential of property values. In DOE it has very little to do with environmentalist and more to do with risk assessment and getting the vote. The power plant stuff is fluff, compared to the DOE stuff.  The oil drilling stuff is hidden in a cloud of ignorance and high dollar lobby.

Doc_REM

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #204 on: Jul 26, 2005, 09:36 »
stownsend...."there's lot's of money to be made in confusion"...I like the statement made at BNFL..."where there's confusion there's money...and I've made ALOT of MONEY here"

Offline Dave Warren

  • Radiological Engineer
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 2912
  • Karma: 1574
  • Gender: Male
  • Cubs vs. White Sox in the Series this year.
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #205 on: Jul 26, 2005, 11:19 »
Well said Doc.
CHAOS = CA$H[/b]

Offline SloGlo

  • meter reader
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 5827
  • Karma: 2646
  • Gender: Male
  • trust me, i'm an hp
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #206 on: Jul 26, 2005, 06:20 »
its all about LET.  trout streams and drilling brine are not likely to be in the same area.
yinz reely wanna geography lesson here?  alls i get is that ya don't care what the dose is to the general public, long's it ain't isotopically tied to your pet project.  so iffen ya pull over at a rest stop ona interstate, 'n walk thru alla dis mud 'n muck dat fell offa a drill rig, it'd be ok.  'n when yer shoes light up the frisker at the new job tomorry morning during g.e.t., wail, hail; whutz a guy to due but grin the grin?
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

raymcginnis

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #207 on: Jul 27, 2005, 01:45 »
Quote
I love it when these people insist I clean up to greater than common sense levels because my wife said she likes to sleep under a roof that doesn't leak and eat three times a day.

I understand about appreciating job security, but I would prefer bettering myself and getting a fun job that actually contributes to society.  That is why I went back to school for multiple degrees.  I worked for a plant once where I did silly stuff every day.  It seemed like the place to be at the time and they weren't huting people, so I just accepted the fact that I had to do silly stuff to work there.  I was relieved when I finally got laid off.  I have never done that again.  I like to contribute to the job and to the country.  I would prefer that all of the job security people get a productive job and save all of the tax payers wasted money chasing the last dpm on the planet for billions of dollars.  We are all intelligent people.  Why can't we all do intelligent and productive jobs and still get paid?

This is still a fun post.

stownsend

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #208 on: Jul 27, 2005, 08:55 »
Ray
I enjoy and respect reading your posts and your website.I comment you for wanting to better yourself with advance degrees and more responsible job opportunities.It takes a mangement team with common sense to dictate to the the in-field techs what they need to write final reports and to have a proper technical basis to justify why they did this or why they didn't.
Now to say that I have a non productive job who is squeezing the taxpapers by wasting their money and I don't have the intelligence to get a productive job,you can get off your high horse anytime.I have been an Hp many years and several of those in position of supervision.I like doing field work so that is what I'm doing.Supervision tells me what they need and I produce.I don't sit in a office doing soil anylsis,pouring over MARRSIM data,chatting at the coffee pot complaining about the lowly HP's in the field.If I have to do "silly stuff" it's because I'm told to, not because I thought that would be a good thing to do today.Bottom line Ray I have an agreement whith mangement here.They tell me what to do ,I do it in a timely and professional manner and they give me a paycheck each month.If you have a different arrangement that lets you do as you feel like it then I expect to see your advertisements on the job board for Techs who want to get paid for doing whatever they decide to do that day.If you go back and read what you said I'm sure you really didn't mean to come across that  way.Have a great day.

Offline SloGlo

  • meter reader
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 5827
  • Karma: 2646
  • Gender: Male
  • trust me, i'm an hp
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #209 on: Jul 28, 2005, 06:19 »
Why can't we all do intelligent and productive jobs and still get paid?

This is still a fun post.

hay ray....(datz sew phat!)  we kin all due intellahjint 'n producktiff jobs 'n still git payed!  butt itz a beeg diffarance 'tween intellahjint pay 'n wut producktiff peeple want.   'cause it seams dat dere's sew many peeple inflating there wages (ona corporate scale) bye kutteen peeplz wages who r below them.  udderwise, alla wages shud go up proportionally all year long at revue thyme.

butt, bttt (bak two the thred) howz come i ain't seeing no answers to da questions?
« Last Edit: Jul 28, 2005, 06:20 by SloGlo »
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

raymcginnis

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #210 on: Jul 28, 2005, 08:21 »
Quote
howz come i ain't seeing no answers to da questions?

SloGlo,

Your question is answered by how many posts there are to the main question "how hot is clean?"  You have to write a MARSSIM (lots of guidelines) plan that is accepted by your regulators.  You remediate to the approved plan.  Then your regulators send in confimatory people (usually 3rd party) to verify that the site is below the limits that they accepted.  At that point you apply to have the site as released and it gets posted in the Federal Registry.  Then you are legally released.  Now if the company wants to reuse the land, they only have to worry about lawsuits from future employees.  If you want to sell it, that is another story.  In our state, we have to disclose that it used to be radioactive.  That could affect the price dramatically or prevent any sale because of public fear of radiation.  Getting it released is never the final story.  In the eyes of some, once contaminated, the land or building is doomed and a death trap.  Most of us know that is just hogwash, but perception of the ignorant can be a headache after release.

Doc_REM

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #211 on: Jul 28, 2005, 08:41 »
is 1000 dmp/1000  clean?
Oh, smear or AUP? >:(

halflifer

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #212 on: Jul 28, 2005, 09:04 »
.  We are all intelligent people.  Why can't we all do intelligent and productive jobs and still get paid?
the answer to that one is easy........we don't all work for intelligent people. (for SloGlo: wee doant all werk four intelagint peepl ;))

atomicarcheologist

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #213 on: Aug 01, 2005, 11:12 »
howz come i ain't seeing no answers to da questions?

Rad Tech, Rad Tech, what’s you going to do?
What’s you going to do when they won’t answer you?

Offline SloGlo

  • meter reader
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 5827
  • Karma: 2646
  • Gender: Male
  • trust me, i'm an hp
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #214 on: Aug 03, 2005, 06:00 »
Rad Tech, Rad Tech, what’s you going to do?
What’s you going to do when they won’t answer you?


tanks, atomicarcheologist.... now eye'm gonna hafe dat song dune da cranial carom fer the next 3 ours!

guess i'll jist hafta answer da question, how hot is clean.  after reading alla these posts, it's obvious that clean is at least 10 times what your limits are.  otherwise, there'd be numerical values shown for stuff, 'n since there ain't nuttin but people tellin everybuddy else that 'it's all what you can get yer regulator to agree to...' (i know, that's not a direct quote 'n ain't meant to be, it's a generic quote averaged out over hundreds of posts ona buncha pages over months of time) 'n udder items of superior based knowledge.  but to put it inot perspective; iffen yer at a sop, 'n yer release limit is 1kdpm fixed, then yer shocked that the generic limit is 15kdpm, huh? (i know, itza max/meter, 'k?)  'n that person drops his jaw at peeple talkin 100kdpm.  but when ya gits all dun waving yer flags wit alla differing alphabet soop on 'em, there ain't no real limits.  which is where i wuz going with the drilling thing, 'cause iffen ya drill 'n leave in md, ya kin leave rads worth laying around.  not in every state, 'cause states with alot of that activity have limited it (like texas, that home of the prez  ;) ) to a numeric value.  'n a numeric value states what is clean 'n what ain't.  nuttin else does.  period.
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

raymcginnis

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #215 on: Aug 04, 2005, 07:59 »
Quote
since there ain't nuttin but people tellin everybuddy else that 'it's all what you can get yer regulator to agree to

SloGlo:  Everybody is using MARSSIM now, except Grandfathered sites.  MARSSIM is not a regulation, but a guideline.  MARSSIM reiterates through the whole document that you have to sell your survey plan and release limits to you regulators.  That is why you have seen that phrase hundreds of times.

You seem to be dealing with building limits.  Most people are dealing with soil limits.  The problem is from State to State, the State regulations vary.  In our State, we have a moratorium from the Governor that says that no debris from D&D may go to a regular landfill, even if you prove it clean through MARRSIM.  We quit doing MARRSIM surveys on buildings.  We just prove they are clean through DOE standards (we survey them like a tool going out of a control point, get the State's approval through their confirmatory survey and demolish the clean building and ship the debris to a controlled hazardous waste site.  That site will not accpt the debris without a letter from the Stae regulatory agency.  We are in constant contact with them.  We get preapproval of our plans before we even start.

You wanted numbers.  We are a DOE site, so our release criteria are based on DOE's basic release criteria.  We never had pure strontium here so our beta release limits for the debris are based on a mixture of beta-gamma emitters.  They are less than 5,000 dpm/100 cm2 when averaged over a one square meter area.  You can have hot spots up to 15,000 dpm/100 cm2 as long as your average over one square meter limit is not exceeded.

For soil, we went with the EPA recommended 15 mRem/year limit.  That limit never passed as law, so we are lower than the law requires.  This 1E-6 limit thing is preposterous!  We ran RESRAD and got limits for each isotope and for isotope mixtures, we do the sum of fractions.  For our site parameters, family farm scenario, our limt for Cs-137 is 9.2 pCi/g.  Since we have a mixture of isotopes, Cs-137 generally drops to ~ 7.0 pCi/g.  That limit makes the sum of fractions under the 15 mRem per year, but we recalculate it for every project.

We always use ALARA for every cleanup though.  We are generally below MDA for every project.  If it were to get cost prohibitive for a site, we would discuss the limits and how far we could reasonably get below it.

Hope these numbers and comments helped you and everyone.  We have been doing D&D since the 1970s.

wlrun3@aol.com

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #216 on: Aug 04, 2005, 08:22 »
Mr. McGinnis,
     I have been following your posts and I am impressed. You mentioned a recently acquired masters degree. Please tell me about it. I am familiar with some of the d&d sites in california. Where is your site. You mentioned resrad...would attending the five day anl class for six hundred dollars be worth it.

raymcginnis

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #217 on: Aug 05, 2005, 07:19 »
Quote
would attending the five day anl class for six hundred dollars be worth it.

wlrun,

Yes it is a most excellent class with most excellent teachers.  It was the best off-site class that I ever took.  They take you through the code for soil release, building release, etc.  I highly recommend it. 

Thank you for the compliment, but awe shucks,  it made me blush.  There are many better people than me posting on this forum.  I am still learning from other's experiences on NukeWorker.

Talking about my degrees or my site is not appropriate for this forum topic.  We are talking about release limits here.

atomicarcheologist

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #218 on: Aug 08, 2005, 05:37 »
You seem to be dealing with building limits.  Most people are dealing with soil limits.  The problem is from State to State, the State regulations vary.  In our State, we have a moratorium from the Governor that says that no debris from D&D may go to a regular landfill, even if you prove it clean through MARRSIM.  We quit doing MARRSIM surveys on buildings.  We just prove they are clean through DOE standards (we survey them like a tool going out of a control point, get the State's approval through their confirmatory survey and demolish the clean building and ship the debris to a controlled hazardous waste site.  That site will not accpt the debris without a letter from the Stae regulatory agency.  We are in constant contact with them.  We get preapproval of our plans before we even start.

You wanted numbers.  We are a DOE site, so our release criteria are based on DOE's basic release criteria.  We never had pure strontium here so our beta release limits for the debris are based on a mixture of beta-gamma emitters.  They are less than 5,000 dpm/100 cm2 when averaged over a one square meter area.  You can have hot spots up to 15,000 dpm/100 cm2 as long as your average over one square meter limit is not exceeded.

I'm not meaning to butt in here, and my apologies to the Mssrs. involved.  However, I believe this information would indicate that your answer to the original scenario (65K Co60) posed would be that it would not be clean.   

raymcginnis

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #219 on: Aug 08, 2005, 09:23 »
Quote
I'm not meaning to butt in here, and my apologies to the Mssrs. involved.  However, I believe this information would indicate that your answer to the original scenario (65K Co60) posed would be that it would not be clean.

Interesting question Atomic A.  My first statement would be butt in whenever you want.  This is a free and open forum.  That is what I love about NukeWorker.  No apologies are ever needed.  This topic varies from site to site and the generators of the limits have made it flexible on purpose.  Every site has a different mixture of isotopes, so the regulations require you to do your own calculations for your mixture to protect you.

Yes, you are right, if RESRAD Build tells you for pure C0-60 that your limit is 65K dpm/100cm2, you are still limited by the basic DOE, NRC, EPA guidelines.  That is 5000 dpm/100cm2 fixed for beta emitters, averaged over one square meter and no "hot spot" over 15K dpm/100cm2..  I don't see a way to get around this, and we have found that this is achievable here.  Generally, we go for ALARA or NDA and that is reasonably achievable  The real question is what is background and what is MDA on analysis equipment?  How low should you go, given the ampount of natural radioactivity and the amount of man-made introduced through all fallout. 

Reply if you would like data.

Shonkatoys

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #220 on: Sep 24, 2005, 07:33 »
I have been working the Mound site recently.  Pretty interesting.  300 dpm max spot 100 cm square alpha and 100 dpm 100cm square average alpha.  My opinion is that if you use convential hand scanning or floor monitors without set speeds for this is that you are either stupid, lying or both.  Fortunately the Mound people see this and are using the Shonka Surface contamination monitor to survey.  You can check it out at.
 http://www.nukeworker.com/pictures/thumbnails410.html
This is very good for low Alpha limits that you can not realistically expect people to frisk at 1 inch every 11 seconds or push a floor monitor cart that has a 600 cm2 surface to see this.  First you would probably push the cart too fast and if all your 300 dpm was in one spot your cart would average this out over 600 cm2 when the regs clearly state 100 cm2.  Can some one explain how a floor monitor is used with about 600 cm2 surface that can be rolled the right speed at all times and interplate  100 cm2 in it without looking for 1800 dpm 100 cm2 which would assume  300 dpm in each 100 cm2 of the cart?

atomicarcheologist

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #221 on: Sep 29, 2005, 09:39 »
I have been working the Mound site recently.  Pretty interesting.  300 dpm max spot 100 cm square alpha and 100 dpm  Can some one explain how a floor monitor is used with about 600 cm2 surface that can be rolled the right speed at all times and interplate  100 cm2 in it without looking for 1800 dpm 100 cm2 which would assume  300 dpm in each 100 cm2 of the cart?
Without getting too rudimentary, one would use the floor monitor in a search mode at 1/3 probe width/second travel speed with the alarm rate set to the corresponding point.  For those without the set point characteristic on the assigned meter, the observed rate for an alarm condition would have to be agreed upon.  Once that count rate has been breeched, then the proper sequence of events would dictate the usage of a 100cm2 probe to survey the area detected by the large area probe on the floor monitor. 
Of course, I assume that usage of this type of instrumentation has been agreed to by all parties involved in the planning group and that it will not violate the Lower Boundary of the Grey Region.   ;)

alphadude

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #222 on: Sep 29, 2005, 11:47 »
hit or miss i guess. seems the floor monitor is just used for the "blind pig finds the acorn" type of survey,

i think you got a nibble there shonkatoys. chum the water sum more!

rascals galore ;D
« Last Edit: Sep 29, 2005, 11:54 by alphadude »

Shonkatoys

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #223 on: Oct 12, 2005, 10:52 »
Alpha Dude put in for Mound!!! Scanning at .4 inches a second for alpha at the 300/100 limit using the surface contamination monitor.  Your the Alpha Dude< just do it!!! Now without being derogatory to any particular company do you think that any other company is scanning for this properly?  Anyone think they can hand scan 100 DPM 100 cm2 average properly.  If so what speed would you move your detector to meet the MDC and what detector would you use. 

atomicarcheologist

  • Guest
Re: how hot is clean?
« Reply #224 on: Oct 12, 2005, 04:01 »
Shonkatoys,
I think that whoever is paying me has all ready made the deal with their regulators and run the programs to acceptable percentiles, therefore I can do it.

 


NukeWorker ™ is a registered trademark of NukeWorker.com ™, LLC © 1996-2024 All rights reserved.
All material on this Web Site, including text, photographs, graphics, code and/or software, are protected by international copyright/trademark laws and treaties. Unauthorized use is not permitted. You may not modify, copy, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit or distribute, in any manner, the material on this web site or any portion of it. Doing so will result in severe civil and criminal penalties, and will be prosecuted to the maximum extent possible under the law.
Privacy Statement | Terms of Use | Code of Conduct | Spam Policy | Advertising Info | Contact Us | Forum Rules | Password Problem?