surface or sub???

[cjones2106]

Hey again, my ship date is Oct 11 and i'm trying to move it to june or july....still pending; but anyway, I am trying to decide if I want to try life as a bubblehead or if I want to try life on the open sea. Any advice would be great! o- almost forgot, I'll be 18 when I ship, and I joined the navy to travel, not sure if that will make a big differance, but I thought it was worth adding in. Thanks Again!

[Rad Sponge]

I can't, I just can't, I just don't have it in me.

A word: Subs.

[shayne]

I took the surface route.  At the time, they usually visited more ports and I enjoy seeing the sun everyday.

[LaFeet]

Hey again, my ship date is Oct 11 and i'm trying to move it to june or july....still pending; but anyway, I am trying to decide if I want to try life as a bubblehead or if I want to try life on the open sea. Any advice would be great! o- almost forgot, I'll be 18 when I ship, and I joined the navy to travel, not sure if that will make a big differance, but I thought it was worth adding in. Thanks Again!

A lot can go into the choice.  I was claustrophobic and decided to conquer my fears by taking on the subs.

If you NEED FRESH AIR, SUNSHINE< FRESH FOOD... go surface

If you can deal with powdered eggs and milk and wilted lettuce - go subs (the money is better)

[hamsamich]

Don't forget about the seasick thing....I get seasick.  I think for someone who gets seasick, a submarine would be better.  On a sub, the only time you have to deal with seasickness is when on the surface in choppy or worse seas, which isn't very often, except for going in and out of port.  I was on a sub and a tender; when the tender was at sea I usually felt a little rough in all but the calmest of seas.  When the sub was at sea at normal cruise depth, which was 98% of the time, I felt AOK.  The tender didn't go out to sea too often, so I was ok there.  I think I would have been miserable on a cruiser or even a carrier possibly; they go out to see for 6months or more. 

Plus when you are going in and out of port on the sub (called the maneuvering watch), you have a special station to be on, and everybody on the sub has to be awake/alert/on the job.  I would go to my station and just lay there and puke/drool for the next 12 hours, so I had an excellent excuse to be laying around on the job.  I could get up and do something just barely if I had to, but if nothing was going on, which was 95% of the time where I was, I'd be lying down with my face pointed torwards the bilge drooling.

[M1Ark]

Don't forget about the seasick thing....I get seasick.  I think for someone who gets seasick, a submarine would be better. 

Not really true.  Hamsamich, have you been underway on a carrier?

[hamsamich]

no, but I have been on a huge cruise ship and a tender.  I was thinking if I get seasick on those, a carrier wouldn't be much better.  I'm trying to look at this from all points of view.

-remember, I get very seasick with the lightest roll
-when a sub is underwater, you don't feel seasick unless it goes shallow or surface
-I'd rather deal with really bad seas for the maneuvering watch only, then know that all will be well until the next port.

this is all about personal pref.  I was just giving my view to remind people to at least THINK about getting seasick before choosing one or the other.  I could be off base here if you NEVER feel rolls at all on a carrier, no matter how high the seas are.  is that true?  if not, I probably was correct, for me anyway.  For people who get only somewhat seasick, maybe a carrier would be better....

[Bighouz107501]

I see alot of great info about this decision, but I was wondering which one would give me more qualifications in the commercial field. I strive for the most and will not settle for the minimum; therefore, I want to receive all the quals possible.  Thanks

Dennis

[Fermi2]

I see alot of great info about this decision, but I was wondering which one would give me more qualifications in the commercial field. I strive for the most and will not settle for the minimum; therefore, I want to receive all the quals possible.  Thanks

Dennis

The positions are the same on both. Both are equivalent qualifications for the commercial world. At times things go in cycles. When I was getting out in 1990 there was a big commercial push for Prototype instructors, having that on your resume was almost a guarantee to at least get an interview.

Mike

[LaFeet]

no, but I have been on a huge cruise ship and a tender.  I was thinking if I get seasick on those, a carrier wouldn't be much better.  I'm trying to look at this from all points of view.

-remember, I get very seasick with the lightest roll
-when a sub is underwater, you don't feel seasick unless it goes shallow or surface
-I'd rather deal with really bad seas for the maneuvering watch only, then know that all will be well until the next port.

this is all about personal pref.  I was just giving my view to remind people to at least THINK about getting seasick before choosing one or the other.  I could be off base here if you NEVER feel rolls at all on a carrier, no matter how high the seas are.  is that true?  if not, I probably was correct, for me anyway.  For people who get only somewhat seasick, maybe a carrier would be better....

Carriers do experience rolls and sways, although not nearly as bad a smaller surface craft, or submarines.  And even on subs, you can get rolls some 200 + feet down when the weather is really bad topside.

You are right about personal preference though.  If you only experienced choppy seas during manuevering watches and a few surface follies, you were lucky.  Todays subs are NOT designed for surface ops.

As for any other reason, I think the availability of different quals is better on suns than surface.  You (or at least when I was in) were encouraged to qualify all your "in rate" watchstations as well as some outside your billet.  Times were such that it almost required nukes to be qualified as Chief of the Watch (coner qual) for any chance at making E-7.

I hope the best for you cjones2106, fair winds and following seas.....

[hamsamich]

we seemed to stay at a good depth, I don't want to mention what that was. my memory isn't perfect though.  when we were in decent water on the tender, it still seemed to roll a little.  the sub usually stuck to our cruise depth unless doing something special.  I think we went near a bad storm at our normal depth one time on the sub, and it was a little rolly, but it was a nasty storm (one time only).  I felt what the tender felt like in much less of a storm (maybe 8 foot seas?) and I did not like it compared to the sub.  i can only assume the carrier would also roll, but maybe not as much.

[retired nuke]

Ahhh, but the occasional surface transit of the North Sea in the fall - that's a roller coaster ride - only had to feed 4 people for that day and 1/2.....and we ate good!!
Water over the bridge - nobody topside, drive by scope.... and all hands turn green !!
One of my fondest memories, but then, I enjoys other's suffering...

[RCLCPO]

I recall once, on the Topeka, sitting in crews mess watching the hopper for the coffee pot launch itself out of its holder (on the stbd side)....it hit the port bulkhead after clearing the tables without effort....

Ahhh, there ain't nothin' worse than calm seas and the sight of land...

The reality of it is, once we submerged you never knew we were moving, unless we did angles and dangles.........

[LaFeet]

I guees the worst for me was Alpha trials on the Maryland.... right into a nor-easter.

Managed to absorb most of the water in through the sail with the temp bunks from the torpedo room.....  I did manage to get sick on that one.....

[Rad Sponge]

I would offer this aspect to consider:

All the seasick stuff is secondary at best, because all things in water will move.

What you need to think about are these:

1. Do you prefer small intimate groups or large gatherings of people?
2. Do you want to attain leadership positions sooner?
3. Do you mind confined spaces?

Being a nuke is hard, regardless of the locale, so you need to consider the additional environmental pressures of a submarine lifestyle.

[LaFeet]

I would offer this aspect to consider:

All the seasick stuff is secondary at best, because all things in water will move.

What you need to think about are these:

1. Do you prefer small intimate groups or large gatherings of people?
2. Do you want to attain leadership positions sooner?
3. Do you mind confined spaces?

Being a nuke is hard, regardless of the locale, so you need to consider the additional environmental pressures of a submarine lifestyle.

While this is true, life as a nuke on the surface is much more relaxed than that of a sub.

Toss in that with the lack of fresh food, inability to communicate with loved ones, long periods of time without sunlight and the fact that once the hatch closes, you may loose the ability to recognize body odor until the hatch opens again........ 

Subs have the terrors and faults, but I would not have traded any of my sub experiences for life on a "Target" with fresh salad.

[Bighouz107501]

Good point guys, I think I'm going to stick to seeing sunlight and stars. Thanks for the advice from all the sub guys.

[visserjr]

Best Marine is a SUBMARINE. Sorry Third gen bubblehead.
John

[hamsamich]

good idea.  If it weren't for the seasick thing, and the fact I didn't want to stay in the navy 1 more minute, I would have tried a carrier.  good luck, and if you like the nav, don't forget to at least give subs a try.  you can easily tour one when you get to your carrier.  also, fast attacks are good for the travel thing!!  but so are carriers I think.

[Bighouz107501]

Yes, I would like to try subs. I'm a big fan of being a somewhat small group that you can bond with easily. I think there are positives of both, but I'll sure to tour a few to see if I could handle it.

[taterhead]

This whole "intimate group" thing is a little misleading from the surface perspective.

I ate, drank, slept, stood watch, showered, brushed teeth, bitched, moaned, cleaned bilges, fought fake fires, etc, with the same 15 or 20 people all the time.  Sure, there are a multitude of other people around or in the background, but your world is as big (or small) as you make it on a carrier. 

[M1Ark]

This whole "intimate group" thing is a little misleading from the surface perspective.

I ate, drank, slept, stood watch, showered, brushed teeth, bitched, moaned, cleaned bilges, fought fake fires, etc, with the same 15 or 20 people all the time.  Sure, there are a multitude of other people around or in the background, but your world is as big (or small) as you make it on a carrier. 

Well said, Tater!

[Fermi2]

Heck even in a department or shift of about 20 guys you'll find yourself hanging out with the same 4 or 5 on a routine basis. The others are just sort of there, you chew the fat with them at work and for the most part like them, but in most cases you only hang with a select few.

Go to a website for CVN 65 Nukes. You'll be surprised at how many actually knew each other, even if they were in different parts of the department.

Mike

[LaFeet]

Sounds like comparing the "open range" to city life

[Fermi2]

On the surface in the San Fran Bay wasn't ever fun on a submarine!

Three of my best friends , including my best friend all came from carriers. Good people are good people regardless of where they come from.

On the subs you'll meet your fair share of arsewipes, as you will on a surface ship. If you're a good guy you'll attract good people around you and won't have to sweat it.

One thing I'm glad we never had on the 687, no personnel inspections before going ashore. I heard on the CVNs this was a big thing.

Mike

[M1Ark]

A 600' nuke cruiser out of San Francisco Bay was no peach either. Made me appreciate pulling in to all other ports.  I think all of the mountain runoff from the Sierra Nevada Mountains meets the Pacific Ocean just past the Golden Gate Bridge.

[shayne]

I would have considered staying in the Navy longer if I could have gone back to the Crusiers after my shore time in NY.

[hamsamich]

so, you knew the first names of everybody on your vessel?  I knew the first names of every single person on board my sub, and at the time, could talk for about 5 minutes concerning the persons personality, beer preference, whatever.  I think someone is missing the point.  there is a big difference.

[longball4414]

I know this is an old thread, but there aren't that many altogether and its all pretty much an archive of great info =).

Sooo I was wondering if your ears pop when on a sub like they do when driving up a mountain side or in an airplane. For some people (myself included very randomly) this can be painful and extremely annoying.

thanks

[Fermi2]

Dang, good question.

I don't believe I ever heard anyone saying their eears popped. Unlike a car or plain a submarine is about 100% leak tight so when you dive the atmospheric pressure doesn't really change therefore your ears don't pop. I don't recall an SSN having any special type equipment to control atmospheric pressure like an airplane has.

I DO know on the days of the old Diesel Boats (I'm talking just post WW2 and prior) they had to open equalizing valves on the hatches when they'd surface because the inside of the boat would pressurize over the course of being submerged and opening something as big as a hatch with any DP across it could cause injury. I'm certain Nuke Boats had the same set up however for the most part atmospheric pressure does not change enough to cause ears to clear. I spent enough time in the chow line looking at that digital atmospheric analyzer to know pressure didn't change much.

Hope this helped!

Mike

[HydroDave63]

so, you knew the first names of everybody on your vessel?  I knew the first names of every single person on board my sub, and at the time, could talk for about 5 minutes concerning the persons personality, beer preference, whatever.  I think someone is missing the point.  there is a big difference.

It's when you can recognize them by their unique pheromone-and-amine smell, that you have been on patrol too long

Oh, and the fresh salads run out after about the first week, when your ship is pinching pennies. Much less rust to chip on a sub. But I enjoyed shortwave radio when 1000 miles from land, and seeing the clouds of tiny flying fish skimmering all about in our wake on warm evenings. Brings me a smile as I crunch that tobiko on my sushi!

[longball4414]

Thanks for the answers about pressure. I'm still trying to decide between sub or target, but I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go target. Just looking at submarines as an option. 

[ranger2]

If you're submerged long enough (say on mission) such that you can not ventillate fresh air into the boat, atmospheric pressure and oxygen can get fairly low. I've seen it low enough to prevent lighting a cigarette. When you finally equalize ship's pressure with atmospheric pressure (ie open the head valve), you can get a big enough pressure change to cause your ears to pop. I usually felt some inner ear pressure change whenever we started the blower or diesel. The diesel moves alot of air and sucks right off the sub's atmosphere.

For these reasons, a submarine physical requires you to be able to "val salva" (ie clear your eardrums...hold your nose and try to blow air through your nose until they equalize).

[Marlin]

If you're submerged long enough (say on mission) such that you can not ventillate fresh air into the boat, atmospheric pressure and oxygen can get fairly low. I've seen it low enough to prevent lighting a cigarette. When you finally equalize ship's pressure with atmospheric pressure (ie open the head valve), you can get a big enough pressure change to cause your ears to pop. I usually felt some inner ear pressure change whenever we started the blower or diesel. The diesel moves alot of air and sucks right off the sub's atmosphere.

For these reasons, a submarine physical requires you to be able to "val salva" (ie clear your eardrums...hold your nose and try to blow air through your nose until they equalize).

You must have been on a diesel boat. We never had any issues as we completly controlled our atmosphere. Both of my boats had extendeded periods without surfacing or snorkeling and never had a problem, our air quality was better than topside. The only pressure transients that we experienced were due to ventilation line ups particularly with the diesel. The pressure testing (50 PSI) we did was for potential use of the escape trunk and prior to use of the water tower escape trunk training in New London. When you make and store your own oxygen you should never run low as long as the reactor is making power.

[Marlin]

I've been out since 78 so some of this is a little hazey but non-condensible gases from the secondary system and pnemantic sytem usage and leakage from high pressure air systems propably contributed as much or more than the O2 bleeds. I will post something on a SubVet BBS I frequant and see if I can get an answer, there are a lot of old timers there and retirees with a lot of experience. (Seems strange to refer to them as old timers when I'm a grandpa.)

[Marlin]

I got a response and the answer was primarily that it is too operational to answer, meaning that systems involved should not be discussed. I was reminded of many other variables that I had forgotten. Bottom line is that, as you said, the pressure increase from the O2 bleed is not significant in the overall operation of the boats environment.

"Cap'n I'm shutting down life support, but we can't last for long"

James Doohan "Scotty" R.I.P.

[JustinHEMI05]

You must have been on a diesel boat. We never had any issues as we completly controlled our atmosphere. Both of my boats had extendeded periods without surfacing or snorkeling and never had a problem, our air quality was better than topside. The only pressure transients that we experienced were due to ventilation line ups particularly with the diesel. The pressure testing (50 PSI) we did was for potential use of the escape trunk and prior to use of the water tower escape trunk training in New London. When you make and store your own oxygen you should never run low as long as the reactor is making power.

Ah then you must not have been on an aging 688 whose atmospheric gear was scavenged from some decom boat and broke 75% of the time. I too remember not being able to light a smoke unless we ventilated, and this was just 5 years ago.

Justin

[Charles U Farley]

This thread had started to veer off course, but now has collided head on with a tree.

We equalized once a week.  Did an air charge submerged.  Pressure went down (740's torr sounds familiar).  Equalized and pressure came back.  Over the week, via air usage_leaks_shenanigans pressure started to build up (780's torr sounds familiar).  Again, we equalize to lower atmospheric pressure. 

I only remember O2 being less than 17% once. 

I do believe that all of this is different boat to boat.  It's dependent on the skipper and how he chooses to run his boat.  We can continue to disagree on how each of us remembered this trivial subject, or we can get back to bashing the surface navy

[Marlin]

Ah then you must not have been on an aging 688 whose atmospheric gear was scavenged from some decom boat and broke 75% of the time. I too remember not being able to light a smoke unless we ventilated, and this was just 5 years ago.

Justin

The Los Angeles (SSN 668) had just finished sea trials when I got out, both of my boats were 637's. At one time candles were used as a primary source of O2 but it was cheaper and easier to use the oxygen banks. We never had any issues with atmosphere control. This was the early 70's and we had a higher priority than even the Carriers. There was never an issue of scavenging except in an emergancy.

[Marlin]

I do believe that all of this is different boat to boat.  It's dependent on the skipper and how he chooses to run his boat.  We can continue to disagree on how each of us remembered this trivial subject, or we can get back to bashing the surface navy

Targets it is

[longball4414]

I've seen some notable people from these forums call subs boats. Is that how it is in the Navy?

Sub = boat and ship = target.

Nobody wants to look stupid 

[Marlin]

The term boat was originally meant for any vessel carried and launched from a ship. The first subs were small enough to fit this category even though they were not carried by a ship (same as the WWII PT boats). Many subs now have the displacement of the Capital ships and are still refered to as boats, this is not due to any requirement of the Navy but through tradition of the submarine force itself that resists the title ship even though the designation is USS or United States Ship.

Boat - (1) Traditional term of reference for a submarine. (2) Traditional aviation term used to refer to an aircraft carrier. (3) Any small vessel incapable of making regular independent voyages on the high seas. The traditional differentiator is that "ships carry boats"

[M1Ark]

While this is true, life as a nuke on the surface is much more relaxed than that of a sub.

Not sure this is true.

[ranger2]

"We equalized once a week.  Did an air charge submerged.  Pressure went down (740's torr sounds familiar).  Equalized and pressure came back.  Over the week, via air usage_leaks_shenanigans pressure started to build up (780's torr sounds familiar).  Again, we equalize to lower atmospheric pressure."

When on certain types of ops which can not be discussed here, air charges, raising snorkel masts, equalizing, ventillating, and even running the oxygen generator are not done due to noise and visual/radar counterdetection possibility. 

[Marlin]

We have drifted a ways from the original request for information so here goes. I am very glad that I was not assigned to a skimmer/target/real Navy. You will find subs more challenging if that is important to you. You will find less personnel time for yourself on the boats, duty day rotations are shorter and manpower requirements are more critical due to a much smaller crew. Submarine quals (Dolphins) are a source of great pride to most and put you in a group of people with great traditions. I have found some preference for sub experienced nukes, especially where ELTs are concerned, in the commercial industry/DOE world. Officer-Enlisted interface is much more relaxed than in the "other Navy". I use to hate going up on the tender or crossing a skimmer, I got many a "speeding ticket" for long hair or not having my crow sewed onto my work coat, my XO filed them away with the others without comment (usually). Submarines frequantly are on independent operations, that means the ports you do visit are probably not clogged with the aformentioned floaters, makes for good liberty.

   In the big ocean there are a thousnd stories this is just one of them.

Marlin

[Bighouz107501]

Currently Im not a sub vol....but highly considering.

my question is if I did choose to go sub..and I did get a Virginia class sub, would the shipyard work benefit me any in the civilian world? any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Dennis

[longball4414]

Does anyone know off the top of their head if there are any submarines located in Washington State ?

[HydroDave63]

my question is if I did choose to go sub..and I did get a Virginia class sub, would the shipyard work benefit me any in the civilian world? 

IF you pay a LOT of attention and pick up some unique morsels of knowledge, it MAY help when you go to interview for working at the yards ( like code 105, 1300 series or 2300s ). Otherwise, I doubt it, I've worked in both places, not much in common. Not too many keelblocks, tugboats or caisson surveys at the power plants.

Nevertheless, learn all you can, no matter where you are!

[hamsamich]

if you ever want to be a contract HP, it would benefit you greatly.  I was allowed to start as an ANSI 3.1 Senior Tech because I had shipyard experience.  But I was an ELT.  If you aren't an ELT, I don't know how much this matters.  Also, mine was a long shipyard period, not newcon.  But I think just having it on your resume as "shipyard period" may count for a large amount of time torwards being a senior tech, possibly allowing you to become a Senior right out of the navy.

[Rifleman]

yes, the pressure changes all the time.  there are a number of reasons and some cause a fast pressure change, others cause a slow pressure change.  It happens enough that we had a SK removed from sub service on my boat because of his ear problems.

if you are surface ventilating, the air path is in through the induction valve, through the fan room, out to either end of the boat via the air ducts, back through the boat via the open spaces, and finally out the hatch in the sail.  Every time we surface ventilated, we "packed air".  that is they shut the sail hatch but kept the fans running and induction valve open.  The air pressure would go up until the fans couldn't push in any more air, then they would shut the induction valve and turn off the fans.  Frequently the barometric pressure in the boat was greater then 32 inHg (the highest the guage would read)... and note that you surface ventilate for every fire, flooding, or steam line rupture drill you run (one of which is done in every set of drills conducted)

changing depth significantly also changed boat pressure.  the hull will actually contract a bit as it goes deep, that reduces the internal volume of the boat, thus the pressure goes up.

Water slugs have already been mentioned (they vent the 3000 pound air inboard at the end)

the HPAC's take a suction on the boats internal atmosphere so they are constantly moveing that inboard vented air, back into the air banks.

the CO2 scrubber blows overboard

An O2 bleed is done to keep us from dieing (so the O2 bleed and CO2 overboard should cancel each other out in a perfect world... is a boat a perfect world? NO.)

in a word, yes, lots of pressure changes, all the time...

unless you have some medical problem, you will lean to equalize pressure... even in your sleep.  Just part of the way of life on a boat.

Remember, submariners volinteer for conditions that you couldn't legally and constitutionally inflict on a convict...

everytime some frickin cop threatens me with going to jail, i have to bite my tongue to keep from laughing... "oh goody, extra rations and no watches to stand"

oh and we had a pic of the "mighty Ike" with 5 pairs of cross hairs from her bow to stern (we were so close we couldn't get it all in one pic, it took 5)... didn't know she had 5 Mk 48 adcaps in her until we called her up and told her so.

subs, all the way, the only way.

Sooo I was wondering if your ears pop when on a sub like they do when driving up a mountain side or in an airplane. For some people (myself included very randomly) this can be painful and extremely annoying.

thanks

[Rifleman]

yeah, I don't know about the other prototypes but the D1G ball was kept at a lower pressure then ambient (I suppose any "leaks" were into the ball, not out)

Every frickin time you went in or out of hull you had to go through an air lock that would pop your ears a bit... that is where I learned how to equalize at will...

kinda funny, that was about the only thing I learned on that surface plant that helped me on subs

[shayne]

All the plants at NPTU NY had airlocks and maintained a neg pressure for containment reasons.  It did take a little getting use to.

yeah, I don't know about the other prototypes but the D1G ball was kept at a lower pressure then ambient (I suppose any "leaks" were into the ball, not out)

Every frickin time you went in or out of hull you had to go through an air lock that would pop your ears a bit... that is where I learned how to equalize at will...

kinda funny, that was about the only thing I learned on that surface plant that helped me on subs

The cruiser I was on, we always maintained a negative pressure in the Reactor Compartments and the Engine Room. (Larger exhaust than supply fans) It really didn't effect anyone that I know of during normal operations.  During ventilation system startup/shutdowns or even if fans tripped off would anyone really notice the pressure difference.

[Roll Tide]

Washington state subs: Yes. Bremerton was home to half the Ohio-class subs, and I assume it is still close. Is that a good thing?

[LaFeet]

Still gotta go SUBS....  while I know the work is harder than surface, I felt that it was a "tighter" community of friends.  Even on shore there was a brotherhood that seemed much greater than any I know that the Target community had.