Help | Contact Us
NukeWorker.com
NukeWorker Menu Rock the Boat

Author Topic: Rock the Boat  (Read 60744 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

E-Z_MONEY

  • Guest
Rock the Boat
« on: Oct 26, 2003, 08:03 »
Hey Everybody,
I know that the "strike" back in the early 90's kinda backfired, but times have changed.  There are A LOT less techs in the business, and the pay for us sucks.  Outages are getting to be half as long with only half the techs they used to bring in, However our pay is still about the same.  Yeah, it's gone up a few bucks, but not near where it should be.  I'm not saying to "STRIKE" However I am saying if we all hold out this spring, the $$$ WILL go up.  I know not everyone is gonna, but if enough of us do, then Good ol' Bruce will have to cough up some coin.  I would rather miss an outage or two and have the $$ go up so in the long run we will all make more money.  The spring is full of outages, and we can all make better money if we stick together.

Offline Rennhack

Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #1 on: Oct 26, 2003, 10:24 »
Quote
Hey Everybody,
I know that the "strike" back in the early 90's kinda backfired, but times have changed.  There are A LOT less techs in the business, and the pay for us sucks.  Outages are getting to be half as long with only half the techs they used to bring in, However our pay is still about the same.  Yeah, it's gone up a few bucks, but not near where it should be.  I'm not saying to "STRIKE" However I am saying if we all hold out this spring, the $$$ WILL go up.  I know not everyone is gonna, but if enough of us do, then Good ol' Bruce will have to cough up some coin.  I would rather miss an outage or two and have the $$ go up so in the long run we will all make more money.  The spring is full of outages, and we can all make better money if we stick together.


A ten year Senior HPT should be making $25/hr, so we are only a few dollars away from where we should be, to be in line with the rest of the job market.  More Seniors are removed from the "pool" every year, at an estimated rate of 10%.  This has caused the avarage pay for a senior go from $14/50 in 1998 to $20/80 in 2002.  Not a bad jump in four years. (That was the same time frame that NukeWorker has been online...)

You will NEVER get people to hold out, but if you could... I'm all for it.  Staffing is already tight, (For example, Bruce has over 70% ofthe contracts, and as a result he has no competition to 'borrow' techs from.)

I've always subscribed to the "follow the money" concept.  Set a dollar amout that you are willing to work for, and do not accept less than that.  Tell the recruiters up front, I need "$xx.00/hr and per diem" to leave the house.  What do you have in that range.  Some times thay have nothing, and you get to stay home and paint the house.  Some times you get some really great jobs.  -- Of course, what works for me may not work for you, but it should as long as you set your sights reasonable.  Rocky Flats pays a lot of money, and it is year round.  The same goes for Hanford, Nevada Test site, and INEEL.  Those sites pay near the $25/hr mark plus per diem.  There is little overtime, but you get a check 52 weeks a year.  You could bounce around from one to another if you like.

As techs leave the short outages behind, and opt for stable, long term DOE work... the wages will go up.  As far as sticking to the power plants... only go to the site paying the most money....follow the money.

So, go ahead, and "hold out" from the outages, but still make some money at a DOE site.  You are still sending the same message... but you are getting paid, and not pissing off the Tech Companies.

Jr8black3

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #2 on: Oct 26, 2003, 10:38 »
Amen Mike, you hit the nail right on the head!!!

E-Z_MONEY

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #3 on: Oct 26, 2003, 03:48 »
I'll agree with what you said, however $16/hr and 80/day for a 3.1 sr. doesn't cut it, and that's what the wages at more than 1 outage are right now.

Chimera

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #4 on: Oct 26, 2003, 03:59 »
When I started in this road-tech business, we were paid a whopping $5/hr and $30/day.  Back then, those were bigger paychecks than most of us had ever seen.  The improvements in wages (and benefits) have been slow in coming over the years.  If you are still accepting $16/hr, perhaps you should consider looking for a different work location.  However, I do believe most of us accepted our jobs knowing full well what the pay and perdiem rates were for that job.

E-Z_MONEY

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #5 on: Oct 26, 2003, 04:07 »
Yeah, well "Bartlett" told a couple of techs they would be getting $18 and 80, but then boned us when we got here.  Anyways my point is that we are still getting screwed and I personally am sick of it and want to do something about it.

RAD-GHOST

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #6 on: Oct 27, 2003, 02:19 »
$16.00 an hour?  They would have to be crazy to even think about working for that wage!

Even the old excuse's, of being close to home, or that outage lines up with the other one I am going to, doesn't cut it!  Any technician who works for that wage, need only look in the mirror to find the guilty party for keeping wages low!

This year, two plants have had some very real problems staffing, Seabrook and DC Cook.  Look what happened there!  They opened their wallets!  I believe Seabrook went to 21/90 with a monster bonus, ( somewhere between $7 and $11 an hour ).  Cook went to 21/70 and a $3000.00 show up bonus, plus hourly bonus!  Hell, they couldn't get techs at that rate!  I guess the $16.00 an hour was more appealing, due to logistics!

Many D&D and DOE sites have also posted for techs, with decent wages and PD.  If the responsibilities at home are so demanding, I suggest looking for another line of work, with equivalent pay, like so many other have done!  As the utilities get more creative with staff augmentaion, you will find outages getting even shorter in duration, with less staff and lower wages.  Although you may not believe it is possible, it is a fact!

Shortage of techs?  Overall I have to admit it is true, but not to the degree you may think.  Their are quite a number of techs who have focused on the D&D and DOE sector, I would estimate about 2000!  Since they choose the full time 40 hour home life, they certainly aren't going to venture back into the outage world, especially when they hear about $16.00 an hour wages!

The contract companies are using that to their advantage.  Since the creation of the Co-Employment issue, the contract companies have had their run of the industry, uncheck by the utilities.  They can put who they want, where they want, when they want!  The utilities are simply told that the shortage of available techs only allows for 80 to 90 percent staffing, at best!

Do you want the time, or the dime?  I'll take the dime!  I have seen many promises gone by the way side.  I have seen them served up on a silver platter, but complete failure on the delivery!  Based on that I'll sell myself to the highest bidder!  At the present time there are about 10 companies who supply technicians in the field, two in the utility sector.  I don't think the others want to get involved with the penny pinching utilities, that doesn't fit into their business plan and I don't blame them!

Mike, I think this is a topic that will probably piss some companies off, but one that is necessary.  The one major tool these companies use against the tech force, is communications, or should I say lack of it!  In the recent job posting section, I have noticed that many companies have refrained from posting the compensation, again another negative situation!  

I've had my say, Thanks!

Offline darkmatter

  • Heavy Metal Poster Child
  • Heavy User
  • ****
  • Posts: 359
  • Total likes: 1
  • Karma: 552
  • you don't know the power of the dark side.
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #7 on: Oct 27, 2003, 04:26 »
Been there, done that. E Z Money is repeating history. That strike attempt in the 90's was bad news for the strikers with the utility backlash. I liked the idea of holding out on a individual basis, but too many Techs have the mindset/need of bills to pay, etc. I really have no fresh ideas for this, anybody else?
"Never underestimate the power of a Dark Klown"

Darkmatters website is no more, nada, gonzo, 
http://darkmatter.nukeworker.net.istemp.com  this will get you there, but I can't update it anymore. Maybe nukeworker will host personal sites eventully

Offline SloGlo

  • meter reader
  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 5752
  • Total likes: 186
  • Karma: 2641
  • Gender: Male
  • trust me, i'm an hp
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #8 on: Oct 27, 2003, 05:49 »
Quote
Yeah, well "Bartlett" told a couple of techs they would be getting $18 and 80, but then boned us when we got here.  Anyways my point is that we are still getting screwed and I personally am sick of it and want to do something about it.

next time you get quoted a package, have them fax it to you.  cuts down on the ole "i never said that" routine.
quando omni flunkus moritati

dubble eye, dubble yew, dubble aye!

dew the best ya kin, wit watt ya have, ware yinze are!

E-Z_MONEY

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #9 on: Oct 27, 2003, 06:41 »
OK,
Here's the deal, I was told 18/ hr, and even though it was low pay, it's a SGRP so I knew I would be here for a while.  The problem is that then when I got here it was only 16/hr and I had already signed a 3 month lease.  I know that some places are paying really good ie. DC Cook and the other 1, but I NEEDED a job and these extra bonuses only come when people are "commited" to another job already.  I started this discussion to get people's ttention and try and STICK TOGETHER this spring so we don't get porked again.  OH YEAH the plant is Palo Verde and to top it all off after I got out here, they told us we were only working 60's!!!  

E-Z_MONEY

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #10 on: Oct 27, 2003, 06:57 »
See this is what is so messed up.  I am trying to make people aware of what's going on and instead of everyone coming together and cooperating, you seem to want to pick apart what I have done.  THE POINT IS that yes, I did take ajob that wasn't paying very good, and then got worse (the pay and only 60's) but I am trying to make people aware that if we would all HOLD OUT the wages like DC COOK and Seabrook would end up being more abundant.  

Offline Rennhack

Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #11 on: Oct 27, 2003, 07:25 »
Quote
See this is what is so messed up.  I am trying to make people aware of what's going on and instead of everyone coming together and cooperating, you seem to want to pick apart what I have done.  THE POINT IS that yes, I did take ajob that wasn't paying very good, and then got worse (the pay and only 60's) but I am trying to make people aware that if we would all HOLD OUT the wages like DC COOK and Seabrook would end up being more abundant.  


Letme get this straight, you are tellng us to not do what you have done?  To not take the low paying jobs?  Even if they are long term.  To hold out for premo pay?

E-Z_MONEY

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #12 on: Oct 27, 2003, 07:51 »
WOW,
This is exactly why HP's will never get unionized, or stick together for that matter.  Here I am having to defend myself when all I was doing was trying to inform everybody of what we could do this spring to make more $$$.  But I guess you would rather look at the past instead of the future.  That's why HP's will stay at the bottom of the food chain.

Offline Rain Man

  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1013
  • Total likes: 2
  • Karma: 539
  • Gender: Male
  • Constants aren't, variables won't.
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #13 on: Oct 27, 2003, 09:14 »
Quote
See this is what is so messed up.  I am trying to make people aware of what's going on and instead of everyone coming together and cooperating, you seem to want to pick apart what I have done.  THE POINT IS that yes, I did take ajob that wasn't paying very good, and then got worse (the pay and only 60's) but I am trying to make people aware that if we would all HOLD OUT the wages like DC COOK and Seabrook would end up being more abundant.


The pay/contract/company/utilities situation has come up and been beat to death for what???......20-25 years.  This is business.  The pay may be good, may be bad.  The contract company may tell the truth, stretch the truth, or out right lie.  Utilities will change their schedules and have no obligation (unless regulatory, contractual or legal) to inform anyone least of all an HP.  We all make conscious decisions for what are considered good reasons.  If a company lies or misleads you, remember it and just don't work for them again, but remember to exit gracefully, as Mike pointed out.  If the schedule changes, well that is just the nature of the beast.  Contract RCTs are nothing more than another tool or piece of equipment for a utility to use as they see fit. Nothing more nothing less.  Not to kick dirt EZ-Money, but your user name sends a big signal.  If someone reads your posts and then looks at the user name more than a few will consider you a "whiner".  The EZ Money moniker will be directly related to your attitude.  Whether true or not is irrelevant.  This has never been a stable business for individuals and never will be.  We ALL take some jobs that pay higher occasionally, some lower occasionally.  There is lots of work out there but one needs to make compromises at times.  Too many people expect to never travel, have the eternal outage in their back yard, with diem, high wages, great hours, unlimited time off, fully paid insurance, etc.  Anything less is a screw job by the contactor, utilitiy, etc.  Hold your breath....we are just a minor speed bump to the nuke biz.  Like Mr. Rennhack stated...don't tell everyone to hold out for more when you decided for what are probably very good reasons to not hold out yourself.  Sounds a bit like how some of the contract companies and utilities operate, doesn't it??
"Giving power and money to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenaged boys." -P.J. O'Rourke

"Politics is the skilled use of blunt instruments"  -Lester B. Pearson

Offline Rennhack

Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #14 on: Oct 27, 2003, 10:20 »
I wasn't ganging up on you EZ, we have been preaching 'hold out' for four years.  Telling everyone to not take the low jobs.  -- Then you come along, take a low paying job, and try to tell the rest of us to not do it.  You taking that job made it ok to pay that amount of money.  At NTS, not a long drive from where you are. Seniors are getting $23-$26/hr $70/day -- There isn't much overtime, generally they work 4-10's.  But that is enough to pay the bills, and give some sort of quality of life.

I do appreciate you bringing this to our attention (16/hr for a Sr should be a crime), but look in the mirror.  You have a handle "EZ-Money", you had a pot leaf as your avatar, and you accepted a job for $18/hr when there are jobs to be had for $5/hr more.

Palo Verde only worked 60's when I worked there in 99 (I think).  That is their standard schedule, especially for a SGRP.  You should always ask what the "expected" schedule is, and understande that things change.  The job I am on was expected to be 6-10's but is 4-10's... That is life.  That is part of the buisness.  Try a job making $37k/yr, and see how this job looks then.

We are sticking together.  We are preaching the same words. I've done my part, and I have not accepted a job making $18/hr.  You have not done your part.  It is hard to accept, but you are partly at fault here.  "Next Spring" is one season too late.  Better late than never, but late none the less.  Try to not be so defensive, even thought it appears that we are attacking you.  We are not.  We are agreeing with you, so much so, that we want to know why you did not follow your own recomendations.

I know this won't put me on your favorite list, I'm sorry.  But the truth from a friend some times hurts, but it is meant to help you.

YOU have to do your part, next spring, and LAST spring, and THIS fall.  ALWAYS.  EVERY tech is responsiable, at all times.  Not just after he gets screwed.

Just don't except ANY work for anything under $23, or what ever your magic number is.  Perhaps it $28/hr, just do not except any job below that, and you will not show up at a job and complain about what you are getting paid.  

We are trying to help you.  We are telling you that we have been doing what you are asking us to do, it's not new to us.  We have been holding out for you.  Now, please hold out for the rest of us.
« Last Edit: Feb 17, 2006, 11:51 by Rennhack »

Doc_REM

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #15 on: Oct 27, 2003, 02:34 »
EZ,
Sometimes you get the candy...sometimes you get the s.it!
I was one of those people back in 1990 giving the speaches from the back of a pick-up bed!!! And you know what it got us?..FIRED! Opps! Layed off!
I understand your feelings.
Since 1995 I have not worked any job for under $20.00/hr. plus P.D.. I know that some thing have changed, but I will NEVER work for anything below $22.50 hr. and P.D. again!
Rainman and Mike. I agree with just about everything you said. Most older tech's have gone to DOE and D&D sites, I'm at one right now making $22.50/P.D. and will be here for another 9 months! And all the over time I want, last week alone I had 72 hrs. and turned down working on Sun.
But, anyway, EZ I'm behind you %100...write me and let me know how the hold out is going, because it will be a long time before I work at a commercical plant again and I need to stray up with what they are going to pay me in the furtue.

Offline azkidd

  • RP Tech (Housemouse)
  • Moderate User
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • Total likes: 0
  • Karma: 135
  • Gender: Male
  • We Nationalize Banks!!
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #16 on: Oct 27, 2003, 02:56 »
I believe EZ will get that $2/hr he is losing in the form of a bonus.  It equals being paid $18/hr, but was mis-informed that it really is $16/hr with a $2/hr bonus upon completion.  I went house, by the way.  And I see a lot of long term jobs on the Job section that may pay pretty well.  My 2 cents worth of beating a dead horse.

E-Z_MONEY

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #17 on: Oct 27, 2003, 03:11 »
Hey guys,
I was just trying to see if people would be up for "HOLDING OUT" this spring because I thought it might be a good idea on how we could all make some more money.  I have watched NUKEWORKER and never have I seen anyone try and get people all communicating so we could better ourselves and our pocketbooks.  Mike said he has been holding out and needs me to now, WELL that was the whole point of me starting this discussion because I have never heard of people sticking together and if we did we would make more $$.  By the way E-Z MONEY was just a joke for a name so that it would get some attention.  KINDA IRONIC HUH??

Offline Rennhack

Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #18 on: Oct 27, 2003, 04:56 »
EZ, Sorry to 'jump' on you.  It just kills me when we are 'holding out' for four years, then some one comes around with it as if it was a new idea, after admiting to accepting a low paying job.

Were you around when Rock Nelson BEGGED everyone to hold out?  That was about three to 3.5 years ago.  I've stayed out of low paying power plants since.  This requirement has kept me out of most power plants.  But I've learned a lot in the DOE and D&D worlds.

Hold out for more money, and tell everyone of the 'good, bad and ugly' jobs is what this site was founded on.  We are trying to connect people with jobs, and jobs with people.  The best people go to the best jobs, and the ...'not best' people end up with the not best jobs.

$18 is a bad rate...$16 & $2 is still a bad rate.  You have to stay... and I'll bet you save a few dollars.  But when the outage is over, come here to Nevada, we are always needing people (~$22/hr & 70/day -- 40 hrs).  Those damn aliens keep abducting our techs....

DDD

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #19 on: Oct 27, 2003, 07:20 »
I'm with Mike I have been holding out since 1991 let me know when outages start paying enough $ to get me to hold out on DOE and enviromental clean-ups and I'll see you at that outage. In the meen time I think I'll spend some quality time with my family.  GOOD LUCK EZ

RAD-GHOST

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #20 on: Oct 28, 2003, 02:00 »
  Hey EZ, I hope you are seeing from the feedback, that the hold out situation is actually in progress!  Their are many techs that simply wont go, without a certain minimum wage!  They, in fact, have been, and are holding out!
  Each tech makes his rush on the seasonal work and tries to put as many outages together as possible.  Holding out does not mean making commitments in November, for the 2004 Spring outage season.  Holding out means, sitting back and wait for the companies to call you!  As the outages approach with staffing voids, the dollars will increase.  It always has and always will!  The two outages described, in my previous posting, define that theory!
  Now that you stated that the site is Palo, you explained a lot.  Isn't this the site that is promising a ton of work, due to back to back outages, SGRP's?  You've bit into a big one!  I don't know who sells this stuff, but the promise of long term utility work, seems to drop wages to an incredable low!  The place does have some attractive feature.  Juniors and 18.1 can get some time in there!  Let them staff it with them!  As for 3.1's, I don't think so, to the wages!  Other questions, What does it take to get the Bonus?  A Bonus is a way of trapping you into staying at the place!  
  I have never experienced the changed wages upon arrival at the site.  I have always received what I was quoted!  If I didn't, I would make the necessary arrangements to correct the problem, Right or Flight!  I will say that on one occassion, due to other compensation issues, the necessary corrections had to be made as I was Body Counting out!
  Your not being picked on!  You just threw the long lived topic out there and received some feedback!  The issue resurfaced because it happened to you!  Hopefully, in the future, you will join the many who won't work for less.  Saying NO is not a bad thing!!
  Fear of the companies!  It is a sure thing, that the techs will call for work, but what if they didn't?  What if the contract companies and utilities didn't have a staff?  WOW, that would be a major shakeup!  What if all the techs aligned themselves under one company?  What if all the techs just took a season off?  Although our proffession isn't truely treated as a specialty, we do fill a necessary function.  It's the same old unanswered question, What if someone gave an outage and nobody showed?
Not to worry, they know it wouldn't happen!

Offline Rain Man

  • Very Heavy User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1013
  • Total likes: 2
  • Karma: 539
  • Gender: Male
  • Constants aren't, variables won't.
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #21 on: Oct 28, 2003, 04:06 »
EZ-Money,  Hope I wasn't too hard on you.  Remember one thing...we are the masters of our own fate.  At times we all make compromises for what we consider good reasons.  Don't get hung up on the pay/conditions/locations at one site.....you have many more down the road.  The next one may be better...maybe not.  That is our lot.  Also figured that the EZ-Money user ID was a gag but sometimes the joke is lost on people.  Then you get a response that wasn't expected.  Then it is too late to say it was just a joke...the damage has been done.  Good luck to you.
"Giving power and money to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenaged boys." -P.J. O'Rourke

"Politics is the skilled use of blunt instruments"  -Lester B. Pearson

oldradman

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #22 on: Oct 31, 2003, 11:19 »
 

IT IS LIKE ALWAYS, CAN NOT GET THE HP'S TO STICK TOGETHER.THATS WHY WE ARE AND WILL ALWAYS BE UNDER PAID. YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE CHOSEN FEW , NO BACK BONE, AND WILL SETTLE FOR  THE BULLSHIT, LIKE THE STRIKE AT PALO VERDE IN 89, WHEN THE TECHS. WENT BACK TO WORK FOR BRUCEY, WHEN HE GAVE THEM A BUCK INCREASE ON THEIR PERDIEM.
THEY WENT IN,SCARED FOR THIER JOBS.

rsteebe

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #23 on: Nov 01, 2003, 06:58 »
I was at Crystal River during the strike and went into the plant to pick up my belongings and body count on the first night.  Ray Roberts was the supervisor on shift that day and arrogantly referred to me as another contractor "SCAB."  I suppose you could justify that statement, though ultimately with little justification.  I stood the line with the rest of the techs and supported the effort till the end, and heard all the speeches from the beds of pickup trucks.  Some of the speeches were intelligently spoken and convincing, other speeches were merely words with hollow meaning, then the two IBEW stooges were there also, I don't need to speak further about them.  There were also craft workers who stood the line with the HP’s, or at least were occupying seats at the bar across the street, where many of the HP’s spent each day of the work stoppage.  What is most disturbing about the whole strike/work stoppage, some of the people who came in from Turkey Point to replace those on the line, inside the plant, then the people who were doing most of the preaching from the pickup beds were also returning to the plant to work, then the rest of the line followed.  Those craft workers who had permission and authorization to represent organization were out of a job, not allowed back into the plant.  

It is always comforting to see a bunch of people speak so strongly against something(or a few convince others), yet support the very situation that forced the work stoppage and cross the lines of organization, so much for unity.  There will not be organization/unionization in this business among HP’s, and there should not be, I don’t need to justify it beyond that, it should be self explanatory.  Each technician should manage their own economy and forget about becoming involved in an organized effort.  The so called organized effort of the 90’s was terribly unorganized, which is in symmetry with this business.  If you do not like what you are getting from this business and majority jobs, hold out for the money you do want, increase your worth through experience and education/job training, or diversify and leave it for good.  Otherwise, attempt to make the best of your situation and quit your complaining, YOU are solely responsible for your existence and worth, justify it.

trailorqueen

  • Guest
Re: Rock the Boat
« Reply #24 on: Nov 12, 2003, 12:20 »
As it may be easy for some of the more experienced seniors to hold out for higher pay, some of us newer seniors have fewer choices.  With the growing number of us(new seniors), they are able to staff the lower paying jobs with people trying to get in time and make a name for themselves.  I don't know how it was for y'all to go from junior to senior, but from what I hear most of the techs who made the transition "back in the day" you had already established a relationship with contracting companies, utilities, and other techs.  It is kinda hard to do that when all you are as a junior now is a warm body biding their time.  But I digress, that is entirely another subject.  

All I am trying to say is, newer techs haven't had enough time to show their worth, making it harder for them to hold out for a higher pay.  Looking forward to the time when I can.

 


NukeWorker ™ is a registered trademark of NukeWorker.com ™, LLC © 1996-2021 All rights reserved.
All material on this Web Site, including text, photographs, graphics, code and/or software, are protected by international copyright/trademark laws and treaties. Unauthorized use is not permitted. You may not modify, copy, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit or distribute, in any manner, the material on this web site or any portion of it. Doing so will result in severe civil and criminal penalties, and will be prosecuted to the maximum extent possible under the law.
Privacy Statement | Terms of Use | Code of Conduct | Spam Policy | Advertising Info | Contact Us | Forum Rules | Password Problem?