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Offline RRhoads

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Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« on: Jun 01, 2006, 02:44 »
« Last Edit: Jun 01, 2006, 06:20 by RRhoads »

alphadude

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #1 on: Jun 01, 2006, 02:57 »
maybe this time they (inpo, utilities, nei etc) will work together to determine demands. last time this happened - every community college along with the large colleges were pumping out so many nukes that it caused the pay rates to drop and utilities ended entry level positions. there was a glut in the worker market.  people left the field to keep from starving.. and never looked back.  ohhh well the pendulum swings both ways don't it.

show me da money.... looks like a possiblity in the near future..

atomicarcheologist

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #2 on: Jun 01, 2006, 03:31 »
This is compelling, until you attempt to get a 145% raise, that is.  Capitalism works, he who pays the best has the most workers.  He who has the most, controls the most.  He who controls the most, makes the most.  Alas, most business people don't get the conection, they want the most with the promise to pay the most when they have the most. 

Offline hamsamich

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #3 on: Jun 02, 2006, 11:11 »
RRhoads - if I could give Karma I would!  Those documents were very interesting.  Even if we get pay raises for the next couple of years and then if levels off again it would be nice.  I've heard stories about how the average per-hour pay for seniors has been quite a roller coaster ride over the past 30 years or so.  As far as I have heard, the pay has been pretty stagnent over the past few years. 

More work while you are on site + much lower outage duration + aging workforce + same money + raising industry standards + few entry level positions + crappy benefits+increased bean counter attitude + scary/mysterious job(working with radiation) + chernobyl/3mile Island effect + drug testing....

The above, and I'm sure I missed something, maybe helping to agitate the situation short and long term, in and against the tech's favor. 

I would love to see what pay actually looks like on a chart for avg $/hr versus year. Per diem could also be added to that chart in another color.  do you know if this is available?  if not we could always do a survey ourselves and come up with a rough chart.....but that would require action.  hmmmmm.  I was house operator/chem tech from 1996 - 2001  and before that in the Navy.  Only been road-teching for 2 years, but it seems to me at least the Diem is creeping up even over that small period.

alphadude

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #4 on: Jun 02, 2006, 11:34 »
I left the road in 1981 and I was making 17.50 an hour. (sr ansi) The pay now is around 25-28 an hour or a  0.42 cents per hour /per year increase.  Is that good or ?.

Offline hamsamich

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #5 on: Jun 02, 2006, 11:50 »
25 to 28 an hour?  that seems high. I think people working for the duke system only make like 18 or 20.  I'm not talking special pay or alara or rad engineer or supervisor pay.  I made 25 at St Lucie, 24.50 at IP, 23 at Calvert.  I'm thinking the average for a power plant senior may be 23 to 24?  Call the average 17.50 back in 1981 and now call it 23.50.  I'm talking for power plant outages.  That is about $.25 a year.  I know the pay for rocky flats and Idaho is higher, but you don't get as much overtime; we would have to account for that or explain it if someone does this survey.  Plus account for plants that don't pay per Diem, even though there aren't many.  This is why we need a survey.  We could also split the chart up; one for power plant workers and one for DOE/dirt/other workers.  Maybe I'll do it.  I need more info from everyone though, so I know what kind of statistics and ideas to keep in mind since I have only been a road tech for 2 years.  I don't want to do it and then say "I wish I would have included this on the questionaire!"

Offline PWHoppe

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #6 on: Jun 02, 2006, 12:18 »
RRhoads - if I could give Karma I would! 

Just become a Gold Member and give out all the Karma you want  ;)

I think that $17.50 per hour for a Sr ANSI in 1981 is a bit high. I know that I wasn't getting that with Rad Services, as a 3.1 in 1981. Some folks may have gotten that but it certainly wasn't the average.

As for the average nowadays, it is very difficult to say, because it varies, region to region. It would however be interesting to see what is an "average" payrate for technicians in the field.
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Offline Already Gone

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #7 on: Jun 02, 2006, 12:31 »
I left the road in 1981 and I was making 17.50 an hour. (sr ansi) The pay now is around 25-28 an hour or a  0.42 cents per hour /per year increase.  Is that good or ?.

The average today is closer to $24.  Even when you consider that the pay rates plumetted in the 80's to around $11 to $13, the rebound has barely kept up with inflation.
The $17.50 in 1981, adjusted for inflation is $40 today.  On the flip side, the $24 being paid currently equals $10.73 in 1981 dollars.  If you had stayed on the road, your pay would have actually dropped and never recovered since 1981.
« Last Edit: Jun 02, 2006, 12:39 by BeerCourt »
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Offline RRhoads

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #8 on: Jun 02, 2006, 01:37 »
this whole situation will get really interesting when the NRC implements it's new fatigue rules next year...from what iam hearing...for outages..it's like 3 days off every 15 days???
I know there is another thread about these new rules but it has not been active since some utility folks & Bartlett reps spoke last week in Texas???
Anyway...the numbers are very bleek for the number of technicians out there to support the outages....& the other killer is the age of the technicians.
Hard to believe the company (Blue) line is still..."oh, we don't have ANY problem staffing outages!"

Offline bsdnuke

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #9 on: Jun 02, 2006, 02:13 »
Guys,

You may want to consider looking at the information you periodically get back from the Social Security folks.  They summarize the reported W-2 income since you started.  Then instead of how much you got per hour, you can see where you are in total $$ (assumes you did not work other jobs in down times.

Also does not include diem :-).


alphadude

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #10 on: Jun 02, 2006, 03:29 »
welllll lets say Rad Services liked me a lot then.  but thats all i really remember about those days.... Eli who???

You are right about the pay in the mid-80s, I remember having a class of techs in the mid-80s, they were pitiful.  The parking lot where i had the class looked like a used car lot after Hurricaine Hugo-- When I left Rad everybody had them fancy cars. 
« Last Edit: Jun 02, 2006, 03:35 by alphadude »

Offline hamsamich

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #11 on: Jun 02, 2006, 04:10 »
so maybe 13 - 14 bucks for an average in 1981?

so it went from 13.50 to 23.50.  That is a 10 dollar raise in 25 years.  Sounds closer to keeping up with inflation, or $0.40 a year.  Alpha was right all along!

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #12 on: Jun 02, 2006, 05:23 »
Actually, in order to keep up with inflation, someone who made $13.50 in 1981 would have to get $30.21 today.
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vikingfan

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #13 on: Jun 02, 2006, 05:43 »
What about other crafts such as decon,maintainance, refuelers ect???

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #14 on: Jun 02, 2006, 09:29 »
Also does not include diem :-).

it wood iffen yinz declared it as taxable.  but that's a subject fer anudder thread.  but ain't it a beach when ya work alla time except when yer complaining about not makeen enuff?  hail, last time i did rad was in 79 'n did i did brucie fer a shortie, did bicoastal with combustion, 'n went back to bruce.  oh, yeah, did rad real quick before i bailed into non-plant work.  then it wuz doing back to backs wit bruce.  once ya due bruce, the udders just don't have that staying power, yinz know whut i meen?  butt i dahnt remember alla this bad wage thing.  i wuz werking half the year to make a full years wage.  now, i gotta due 48 weaks straight to get a hole year in.  sew, accordian two my math, i've been whacked fur a 54% loss.  witch jist shows ya how bad the economy has got, cause i got a raised family 'n still able to buy a lotta stuff.  unless i insist on quality, then i only git a little.  but eye alwaz sayed that good thing come in little pakages.
 
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Offline hamsamich

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #15 on: Jun 02, 2006, 10:33 »
0.42 cents per hour /per year increase is what alpha said.  I said .40  sounds about the same.

radroller

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #16 on: Jun 03, 2006, 06:56 »
Well it seems that the utilities know that there is a shortage of skilled workers.  So what they do is get you to do more.  Like HPs doing decon work, etc.  that kinda makes up for the shortage.  Multicrafting is what it tis...............Any good tech will be worked to the bone, or making blood money.  I think that they are also trying to automate alot of their work by using cameras and stuff.

Offline aubergine63

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #17 on: Jun 05, 2006, 02:42 »
oh sparky

you were still wet behind the ears then.  email me,  you know the address.


your favorite  -.5' sr. tech
Relax.

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #18 on: Jun 06, 2006, 12:05 »
RRhoads - if I could give Karma I would! 

Just one donation away.......
 ;D ;D ;D

One site (which shall remain nameless at this time) had craft supervisors brief on RWP's as a way to overcome HP shortages. They have since stopped.
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alphadude

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #19 on: Jun 06, 2006, 01:38 »
Back in the mid-80's, utilities were planning the "safe rad worker" design.  workers would be trained to compensate for the reduction in HP staffing.  that darn ole NRC stuck there nose in there and kinda killed the idea.

Chelios

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #20 on: Jun 06, 2006, 03:52 »
I don't know where you guys are coming up with your 1981 wages. I was making $9 - $10/ hr in '81 and $12/hr in '85. I '89, $14/hr was good. Per diem was $39/day in '81 and went to $44 and stayed there until the late 80s.

Offline PWHoppe

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #21 on: Jun 07, 2006, 06:40 »
I don't know where you guys are coming up with your 1981 wages. I was making $9 - $10/ hr in '81 .

Now that's the Rad Services I remember.. ;D

I agree with you Chelios, I don't know where all these other numbers come from but I don't remeber them ::)

Maybe it's like your Dad telling you I had it tougher in my day. We had to walk uphill both ways to school  :o
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Offline hamsamich

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #22 on: Jun 07, 2006, 08:11 »
can we post a poll along side of  this topic?  something like: as a power plant Senior HP in 1981, I used to make 8$/hr, 9$/hr, 10$/hr, 11$/hr, 12$/hr, 13$/ hr, etc and MORE, LESS.  oh yeah, and per diem plus was it 72 hours at least, stuff like that.  making 30 a day on diem and 11 bucks an hour might be equal to making 13 bucks an hour straight up maybe?

alphadude

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #23 on: Jun 07, 2006, 09:36 »
in 1981, $17.50 with Rad, just prior to that $16.85 with ARC  went to the utility for $15.00. (it paid off big time!!!)

Offline Already Gone

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #24 on: Jun 07, 2006, 02:46 »
What about other crafts such as decon,maintainance, refuelers ect???
Gee where do I start?  Okay, the easy one first.  Decon is not a craft, nor are deconners skilled workers.  Admittedly, some types of decon are highly specialized, and can only be done well by experienced people.  Conversely, these jobs will be totally screwed up by anyone else.  But there are very few of these jobs and enough people to do them.  Most of deconner work is just plain unskilled labor.

The terms "maintenance and refuellers" are a little bit too comprehensive.  Maintenance includes Electricians, Pipefitters, Painters, Millwrights, Carpenters, Operating Engineers, Laborers, Boilermakers, ... and a few other crafts that I haven't mentioned.  There is no shortage of people in these trades, either union or non-union.  Periodically however, they do get stretched thin when large projects take up most of the manpower.  The majority of these people do not have to chase nuclear power plant outages to stay employed.  They can make more money on a non-nuke job without having to park a mile from the jobsite, get their lunch x-rayed, or have to wear pajamas and coveralls all day.  They can drink water, eat sandwiches, and take smoke breaks realtively close to their work if not right on the spot, AND the jobs are not offered at 85% of the local scale like nuke jobs frequently are.  So, if the nuke outage seems a little sparsely populated, it isn't because there aren't enough people to do the work; it's because they would rather do it somewhere else.  Nuke outages are no longer the guaranteed moneymakers that they once were, and most people aren't locked into them like some of us are.

Likewise refuellers are a conglomeration of trades.  Reactor disassembly and reassembly can be done with a single dedicated crew or it can be done with an amalgam of various tradespersons.  It isn't really all that different from the work they do outside the nukes - except for the funny yellow clothes and the pesky HP techs.  Bolts and nuts are bolts and nuts.  Picking up a reactor head is kind of like picking up any other big, heavy, expensive, delicate object.   The small specialized crew of people who actually move the fuel are trained for this specific task, but there are puhhlllleennnnnnnttttyyyy of people to do it.  Though union workers generally recognize this as Millwright work, non-union contractors can basically knock any breathing human off a barstool and train him to move fuel.  Sound familiar?  Just like deconning, moving fuel doesn't require a graduate degree, it just requires that you pass the training, stay sober at work and pass the urine screening.

In all the country, there is no looming shortage of people in any occupation.  Otherwise there wouldn't be any need for Unemployment Insurance, and Bush wouln't be getting so much grief about his Guest Worker program.  The artificial shortage occurs when there will be 21 nuke outages during the same week this coming October, combined with the fact that there will be three to four times as many outages at non-nuke power plants at that time, and that it will still be outdoor construction season in most of the country.  People can't be at more than one place at one time (or I'd be somewhere else right now as well as here  ;))

Saying that there is a shortage of people to do nuke outages is a lot like trying to have a parade where all the bands march side-by-side and then complaining that the street isn't as wide as it should be.
« Last Edit: Jun 07, 2006, 09:30 by BeerCourt »
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