Author Topic: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers (Read 50615 times)

RRhoads · « **on:** Jun 01, 2006, 02:44 »

Interesting reading....Somebody better get crackin'..
http://www.nei.org/index.asp?catnum=3&catid=1295
here's more food for thought!
http://www.ans.org/pi/np/radsafety/
http://hps.org/documents/ManpowerTaskForceReport.pdf

alphadude · « **Reply #1 on:** Jun 01, 2006, 02:57 »

maybe this time they (inpo, utilities, nei etc) will work together to determine demands. last time this happened - every community college along with the large colleges were pumping out so many nukes that it caused the pay rates to drop and utilities ended entry level positions. there was a glut in the worker market. people left the field to keep from starving.. and never looked back. ohhh well the pendulum swings both ways don't it.

show me da money.... looks like a possiblity in the near future..

atomicarcheologist · « **Reply #2 on:** Jun 01, 2006, 03:31 »

This is compelling, until you attempt to get a 145% raise, that is. Capitalism works, he who pays the best has the most workers. He who has the most, controls the most. He who controls the most, makes the most. Alas, most business people don't get the conection, they want the most with the promise to pay the most when they have the most.

hamsamich · « **Reply #3 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 11:11 »

RRhoads - if I could give Karma I would! Those documents were very interesting. Even if we get pay raises for the next couple of years and then if levels off again it would be nice. I've heard stories about how the average per-hour pay for seniors has been quite a roller coaster ride over the past 30 years or so. As far as I have heard, the pay has been pretty stagnent over the past few years.

More work while you are on site + much lower outage duration + aging workforce + same money + raising industry standards + few entry level positions + crappy benefits+increased bean counter attitude + scary/mysterious job(working with radiation) + chernobyl/3mile Island effect + drug testing....

The above, and I'm sure I missed something, maybe helping to agitate the situation short and long term, in and against the tech's favor.

I would love to see what pay actually looks like on a chart for avg $/hr versus year. Per diem could also be added to that chart in another color. do you know if this is available? if not we could always do a survey ourselves and come up with a rough chart.....but that would require action. hmmmmm. I was house operator/chem tech from 1996 - 2001 and before that in the Navy. Only been road-teching for 2 years, but it seems to me at least the Diem is creeping up even over that small period.

alphadude · « **Reply #4 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 11:34 »

I left the road in 1981 and I was making 17.50 an hour. (sr ansi) The pay now is around 25-28 an hour or a 0.42 cents per hour /per year increase. Is that good or ?.

hamsamich · « **Reply #5 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 11:50 »

25 to 28 an hour? that seems high. I think people working for the duke system only make like 18 or 20. I'm not talking special pay or alara or rad engineer or supervisor pay. I made 25 at St Lucie, 24.50 at IP, 23 at Calvert. I'm thinking the average for a power plant senior may be 23 to 24? Call the average 17.50 back in 1981 and now call it 23.50. I'm talking for power plant outages. That is about $.25 a year. I know the pay for rocky flats and Idaho is higher, but you don't get as much overtime; we would have to account for that or explain it if someone does this survey. Plus account for plants that don't pay per Diem, even though there aren't many. This is why we need a survey. We could also split the chart up; one for power plant workers and one for DOE/dirt/other workers. Maybe I'll do it. I need more info from everyone though, so I know what kind of statistics and ideas to keep in mind since I have only been a road tech for 2 years. I don't want to do it and then say "I wish I would have included this on the questionaire!"

PWHoppe · « **Reply #6 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 12:18 »

Quote from: hamsamich on Jun 02, 2006, 11:11

RRhoads - if I could give Karma I would!

Just become a Gold Member and give out all the Karma you want

I think that $17.50 per hour for a Sr ANSI in 1981 is a bit high. I know that I wasn't getting that with Rad Services, as a 3.1 in 1981. Some folks may have gotten that but it certainly wasn't the average.

As for the average nowadays, it is very difficult to say, because it varies, region to region. It would however be interesting to see what is an "average" payrate for technicians in the field.

Already Gone · « **Reply #7 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 12:31 »

Quote from: alphadude on Jun 02, 2006, 11:34

I left the road in 1981 and I was making 17.50 an hour. (sr ansi) The pay now is around 25-28 an hour or a 0.42 cents per hour /per year increase. Is that good or ?.

The average today is closer to $24. Even when you consider that the pay rates plumetted in the 80's to around $11 to $13, the rebound has barely kept up with inflation.
The $17.50 in 1981, adjusted for inflation is $40 today. On the flip side, the $24 being paid currently equals $10.73 in 1981 dollars. If you had stayed on the road, your pay would have actually dropped and never recovered since 1981.

RRhoads · « **Reply #8 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 01:37 »

this whole situation will get really interesting when the NRC implements it's new fatigue rules next year...from what iam hearing...for outages..it's like 3 days off every 15 days???
I know there is another thread about these new rules but it has not been active since some utility folks & Bartlett reps spoke last week in Texas???
Anyway...the numbers are very bleek for the number of technicians out there to support the outages....& the other killer is the age of the technicians.
Hard to believe the company (Blue) line is still..."oh, we don't have ANY problem staffing outages!"

bsdnuke · « **Reply #9 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 02:13 »

Guys,

You may want to consider looking at the information you periodically get back from the Social Security folks. They summarize the reported W-2 income since you started. Then instead of how much you got per hour, you can see where you are in total $$ (assumes you did not work other jobs in down times.

Also does not include diem :-).

alphadude · « **Reply #10 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 03:29 »

welllll lets say Rad Services liked me a lot then. but thats all i really remember about those days.... Eli who???

You are right about the pay in the mid-80s, I remember having a class of techs in the mid-80s, they were pitiful. The parking lot where i had the class looked like a used car lot after Hurricaine Hugo-- When I left Rad everybody had them fancy cars.

hamsamich · « **Reply #11 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 04:10 »

so maybe 13 - 14 bucks for an average in 1981?

so it went from 13.50 to 23.50. That is a 10 dollar raise in 25 years. Sounds closer to keeping up with inflation, or $0.40 a year. Alpha was right all along!

Already Gone · « **Reply #12 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 05:23 »

Actually, in order to keep up with inflation, someone who made $13.50 in 1981 would have to get $30.21 today.

vikingfan · « **Reply #13 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 05:43 »

What about other crafts such as decon,maintainance, refuelers ect???

SloGlo · « **Reply #14 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 09:29 »

Quote from: bsdnuke on Jun 02, 2006, 02:13

Also does not include diem :-).

it wood iffen yinz declared it as taxable. but that's a subject fer anudder thread. but ain't it a beach when ya work alla time except when yer complaining about not makeen enuff? hail, last time i did rad was in 79 'n did i did brucie fer a shortie, did bicoastal with combustion, 'n went back to bruce. oh, yeah, did rad real quick before i bailed into non-plant work. then it wuz doing back to backs wit bruce. once ya due bruce, the udders just don't have that staying power, yinz know whut i meen? butt i dahnt remember alla this bad wage thing. i wuz werking half the year to make a full years wage. now, i gotta due 48 weaks straight to get a hole year in. sew, accordian two my math, i've been whacked fur a 54% loss. witch jist shows ya how bad the economy has got, cause i got a raised family 'n still able to buy a lotta stuff. unless i insist on quality, then i only git a little. but eye alwaz sayed that good thing come in little pakages.

hamsamich · « **Reply #15 on:** Jun 02, 2006, 10:33 »

0.42 cents per hour /per year increase is what alpha said. I said .40 sounds about the same.

radroller · « **Reply #16 on:** Jun 03, 2006, 06:56 »

Well it seems that the utilities know that there is a shortage of skilled workers. So what they do is get you to do more. Like HPs doing decon work, etc. that kinda makes up for the shortage. Multicrafting is what it tis...............Any good tech will be worked to the bone, or making blood money. I think that they are also trying to automate alot of their work by using cameras and stuff.

aubergine63 · « **Reply #17 on:** Jun 05, 2006, 02:42 »

oh sparky

you were still wet behind the ears then. email me, you know the address.

your favorite -.5' sr. tech

Roll Tide · « **Reply #18 on:** Jun 06, 2006, 12:05 »

Quote from: hamsamich on Jun 02, 2006, 11:11

RRhoads - if I could give Karma I would!

Just one donation away.......

One site (which shall remain nameless at this time) had craft supervisors brief on RWP's as a way to overcome HP shortages. They have since stopped.

alphadude · « **Reply #19 on:** Jun 06, 2006, 01:38 »

Back in the mid-80's, utilities were planning the "safe rad worker" design. workers would be trained to compensate for the reduction in HP staffing. that darn ole NRC stuck there nose in there and kinda killed the idea.

Chelios · « **Reply #20 on:** Jun 06, 2006, 03:52 »

I don't know where you guys are coming up with your 1981 wages. I was making $9 - $10/ hr in '81 and $12/hr in '85. I '89, $14/hr was good. Per diem was $39/day in '81 and went to $44 and stayed there until the late 80s.

PWHoppe · « **Reply #21 on:** Jun 07, 2006, 06:40 »

Quote from: Chelios on Jun 06, 2006, 03:52

I don't know where you guys are coming up with your 1981 wages. I was making $9 - $10/ hr in '81 .

Now that's the Rad Services I remember..

I agree with you Chelios, I don't know where all these other numbers come from but I don't remeber them

Maybe it's like your Dad telling you I had it tougher in my day. We had to walk uphill both ways to school

hamsamich · « **Reply #22 on:** Jun 07, 2006, 08:11 »

can we post a poll along side of this topic? something like: as a power plant Senior HP in 1981, I used to make 8$/hr, 9$/hr, 10$/hr, 11$/hr, 12$/hr, 13$/ hr, etc and MORE, LESS. oh yeah, and per diem plus was it 72 hours at least, stuff like that. making 30 a day on diem and 11 bucks an hour might be equal to making 13 bucks an hour straight up maybe?

alphadude · « **Reply #23 on:** Jun 07, 2006, 09:36 »

in 1981, $17.50 with Rad, just prior to that $16.85 with ARC went to the utility for $15.00. (it paid off big time!!!)

Already Gone · « **Reply #24 on:** Jun 07, 2006, 02:46 »

Quote from: vikingfan on Jun 02, 2006, 05:43

What about other crafts such as decon,maintainance, refuelers ect???

Gee where do I start? Okay, the easy one first. Decon is not a craft, nor are deconners skilled workers. Admittedly, some types of decon are highly specialized, and can only be done well by experienced people. Conversely, these jobs will be totally screwed up by anyone else. But there are very few of these jobs and enough people to do them. Most of deconner work is just plain unskilled labor.

The terms "maintenance and refuellers" are a little bit too comprehensive. Maintenance includes Electricians, Pipefitters, Painters, Millwrights, Carpenters, Operating Engineers, Laborers, Boilermakers, ... and a few other crafts that I haven't mentioned. There is no shortage of people in these trades, either union or non-union. Periodically however, they do get stretched thin when large projects take up most of the manpower. The majority of these people do not have to chase nuclear power plant outages to stay employed. They can make more money on a non-nuke job without having to park a mile from the jobsite, get their lunch x-rayed, or have to wear pajamas and coveralls all day. They can drink water, eat sandwiches, and take smoke breaks realtively close to their work if not right on the spot, AND the jobs are not offered at 85% of the local scale like nuke jobs frequently are. So, if the nuke outage seems a little sparsely populated, it isn't because there aren't enough people to do the work; it's because they would rather do it somewhere else. Nuke outages are no longer the guaranteed moneymakers that they once were, and most people aren't locked into them like some of us are.

Likewise refuellers are a conglomeration of trades. Reactor disassembly and reassembly can be done with a single dedicated crew or it can be done with an amalgam of various tradespersons. It isn't really all that different from the work they do outside the nukes - except for the funny yellow clothes and the pesky HP techs. Bolts and nuts are bolts and nuts. Picking up a reactor head is kind of like picking up any other big, heavy, expensive, delicate object. The small specialized crew of people who actually move the fuel are trained for this specific task, but there are puhhlllleennnnnnnttttyyyy of people to do it. Though union workers generally recognize this as Millwright work, non-union contractors can basically knock any breathing human off a barstool and train him to move fuel. Sound familiar? Just like deconning, moving fuel doesn't require a graduate degree, it just requires that you pass the training, stay sober at work and pass the urine screening.

In all the country, there is no looming shortage of people in any occupation. Otherwise there wouldn't be any need for Unemployment Insurance, and Bush wouln't be getting so much grief about his Guest Worker program. The artificial shortage occurs when there will be 21 nuke outages during the same week this coming October, combined with the fact that there will be three to four times as many outages at non-nuke power plants at that time, and that it will still be outdoor construction season in most of the country. People can't be at more than one place at one time (or I'd be somewhere else right now as well as here

)

Saying that there is a shortage of people to do nuke outages is a lot like trying to have a parade where all the bands march side-by-side and then complaining that the street isn't as wide as it should be.

Rennhack · « **Reply #25 on:** Jun 07, 2006, 04:44 »

Quote from: BeerCourt on Jun 02, 2006, 12:31

The average today is closer to $24. Even when you consider that the pay rates plumetted in the 80's to around $11 to $13, the rebound has barely kept up with inflation.
The $17.50 in 1981, adjusted for inflation is $40 today. On the flip side, the $24 being paid currently equals $10.73 in 1981 dollars. If you had stayed on the road, your pay would have actually dropped and never recovered since 1981.

If you use the Import Price Index (MPI), it's closer to $21/hr.
If you use the Producer Price Index (PPI), it's closer to $26/hr.
If you use the Gross Domestic Product Deflator (GDPD), it's closer to $33/hr.
If you use the Consumer Price Index (CPI), it's closer to $36/hr. <-- Cost of living.
If you use the NASA New Start Index (NNSII), it's closer to $41/hr.
If you use the Employment Cost Index (ECI), it's closer to $43/hr.

SloGlo · « **Reply #26 on:** Jun 07, 2006, 08:39 »

Quote from: BeerCourt on Jun 07, 2006, 02:46

Saying that there is a shortage of people to do nuke outages is a lot like trying to have a parade where all the bands march side-by-side and then complaining that the street isn't as wide as it should be.

while i agree wit bout 99% of yer post, i gotta point out there is a shortage.... of planners who actually plan in the industry. seems like sumbuddy ought to open up that job slot. i'd like to volunteer.
karma on.

darkmatter · « **Reply #27 on:** Jun 09, 2006, 09:27 »

Quote from: Rennhack on Jun 07, 2006, 04:44

If you use the Import Price Index (MPI), it's closer to $21/hr.
If you use the Producer Price Index (PPI), it's closer to $26/hr.
If you use the Gross Domestic Product Deflator (GDPD), it's closer to $33/hr.
If you use the Consumer Price Index (CPI), it's closer to $36/hr. <-- Cost of living.
If you use the NASA New Start Index (NNSII), it's closer to $41/hr.
If you use the Employment Cost Index (ECI), it's closer to $43/hr.

Working in the early 80's, I kept a record of my expenses and earnings (take home). As a Sr HP contractor, we took home an average of a grand a week. Comparing what I bought and could afford in the 80's to what I can afford now, we would have to be taking home $2,500.00 a week now to live a simalar standard of life.

Is it any wonder then that there seems to be a declining number of skilled and enthusiastic workers? Maybe its just me but the new hires lately don't seem to have the work attitudes I remember among ourselves when we were starting out. I tell some of the outage stories and antics only to be dis-believed. I go to work setting up a job with some of the Jrs , Sumps, Pump rebuilds, etc. and just can't believe how I can outwork, outhaul, and outlast these wimps as they seem ready to quit as soon as they pop a bead of sweat. And you thought contractors had a patent on avoiding work----check out the new Jr house Techs, the excuses to not doing work. (I have a appointment with HR, training, call in sick on a hot job day, etc.)

Could it be the less incentive of less actual pay?

ChiefRocscooter · « **Reply #28 on:** Jul 28, 2006, 11:02 »

Just a thought/ quetion is the huge reducition in the number of Navy nuc's (and with the fewer prototypes less Navy civ's too) having any impact on the industry? I know they were/are only a portion of the work force but I would think that having such a reduction of "trained" worker available to enter the field is having soome impact?

Rob

shovelheadred · « **Reply #29 on:** Jul 31, 2006, 11:41 »

.........DARK MATTER.couldnt agree with you more...I havent worked a power plant job as an RP since 95, until I worked IP-2 this spring....like you said the quality of techs is down,,,the attitude is that they should make more and do less.....no respect for experienced techs,,,,,and to tell a story, if it didnt happen in the 90's most of them were in grammer school and or crappin green.......there was a tech there that carried the mail..."Diamond Jim Brady"...from Philly..know him?...5 like him and you could run an outage...the old school way,,,,,,,,,,,red

Mike McFarlin · « **Reply #30 on:** Jul 31, 2006, 01:00 »

If you have experience, then you get all the hot jobs while the inexperienced techs still remain inexperienced.

Already Gone · « **Reply #31 on:** Jul 31, 2006, 04:23 »

Quote from: shovelheadred on Jul 31, 2006, 11:41

.........DARK MATTER.couldnt agree with you more...I havent worked a power plant job as an RP since 95, until I worked IP-2 this spring....like you said the quality of techs is down,,,the attitude is that they should make more and do less.....no respect for experienced techs,,,,,and to tell a story, if it didnt happen in the 90's most of them were in grammer school and or crappin green.......there was a tech there that carried the mail..."Diamond Jim Brady"...from Philly..know him?...5 like him and you could run an outage...the old school way,,,,,,,,,,,red

No respect?

Where do you think they learned that attitude in the first place? You have a few people in this business with 20 years experience, and you have a lot more with 1 year's experience 20 times over.
I remember Diamond Jim from Oyster Creek in 1988. Pretty entertaining guy he was.

RAD-GHOST · « **Reply #32 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 04:14 »

Shortage of Skilled Workers? Not really, they are just living in other countries right now!

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am now taking French, German and Spanish lessons!

Have a Great Day, RG

retired nuke · « **Reply #33 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 08:00 »

Quote from: shovelheadred on Jul 31, 2006, 11:41

.........DARK MATTER.couldnt agree with you more...I havent worked a power plant job as an RP since 95, until I worked IP-2 this spring....like you said the quality of techs is down,,,the attitude is that they should make more and do less.....no respect for experienced techs,,,,,and to tell a story, if it didnt happen in the 90's most of them were in grammer school and or crappin green.......there was a tech there that carried the mail..."Diamond Jim Brady"...from Philly..know him?...5 like him and you could run an outage...the old school way,,,,,,,,,,,red

I remember Jim - stayed under vessel pulling drives for 6 1/2 hrs at Pilgrim - his thought..."I don't need a relief, I'm already dressed out and getting paid.....
4 like him and you could run an outage.

Dave Warren · « **Reply #34 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 02:26 »

Quote from: ChiefRocscooter on Jul 28, 2006, 11:02

Just a thought/ quetion is the huge reducition in the number of Navy nuc's (and with the fewer prototypes less Navy civ's too) having any impact on the industry? I know they were/are only a portion of the work force but I would think that having such a reduction of "trained" worker available to enter the field is having soome impact?

Rob

All the squids are gonna freak out, but here goes....This is not a statement pertaining to all Ex-Navy, so don't get your panties in a wad.

I think what has happened with all the Navy-trained folks is this: They are trained so much differently than those of us who have mostly on-the-job training. The OJT types learn to deal with last-minute decisions, and fast-changing conditions, the longer they are in the industry. The Navy-trained tech is used to things being a certain way and when that doesn't happen, they get frustrated and can not adjust to the fly-by-the-seat-of your-pants style that is so common to the HP industry. Most of your Navy types end up being something other than an HP, because they are trained a totally different way from boot camp to duty station, similar to the way the Marine Corps tried to brainwash us.

There are just too many unknowns and they are used to structure, and the change is too drastic.

Go ahead, Bash away. Just one man's opinion......

Marlin · « **Reply #35 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 02:49 »

Quote from: DaveWarren on Aug 01, 2006, 02:26

There are just too many unknowns and they are used to structure, and the change is too drastic.

Go ahead, Bash away. Just one man's opinion......

Damn Dave did you get a new paddle. What you say has plenty of truth in it, but it can apply to anyone moving from one environment to another. In the Navy "Ustafish" was the last assignment of a sailor that could not let go of the way they did business in thier last command. How many times have you heard someone say "well thats not the way we did it at my last plant". It may also be that many ex Navy move on because they are better equiped to do so.
Now come on Dave lets play nice after all I have always had greatest respect for the Marines that gaurded our gates, after all not one was stolen the whole time I was in.

vikingfan · « **Reply #36 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 03:16 »

amen and much karma to ya dave from one jarhead to another !

Dave Warren · « **Reply #37 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 03:22 »

Semper Fi, vikingfan......

Now Marlin, you know that I spent 6 months on a ship with you boys.
I am not bashing anyone. I spent many days and nights in the Far East with Navy Corpsmen.

All I am saying is this: A good percentage of guys in this business, that are high-strung, (just slightly) anal-retentive, and always worried that something isn't going the way they think it should, tend to have spent time in the Navy.

It is very possible that they are more equipped to move on, and they should be applauded for that. It is just like this business having a high rate of divorce. Just a mental note of a trend I wanted to share....

Marlin · « **Reply #38 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 04:40 »

Just puttin my paddle in the pot with ya, as long as we are going to drift off of the subject which I think was the lack of future nuke workers and the aging work force, now where's my walker (Johnnie Walker that is).

Jr8black3 · « **Reply #39 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 08:04 »

Red, and Beer Court refered to Jim Brady as " Diamond Jim Brady".. It has to be the same Jim Brady I worked with last summer in Cleveland,, We called him "Jim Big Dog Brady"..Like many have said here you could staff a outage with just a handful of techs with his will to get the job done. In 21 years I've never seen a tech move there azz and get a job done like him, and the scary thing is that he is so smart... Hands down the best HP tech I've ever worked with..

ChiefRocscooter · « **Reply #40 on:** Aug 01, 2006, 08:57 »

Dave,
My point was more about there being less of them now days than in the past. Not so much about how they did. I am sure some were great, some sucked and so were so so, but I would guess there are gettting to be less and less ex-squids out there with Nuc training. I am guessing here but I would bet that there are less then

? half the number of Nuc in the Navy today as in say 1986. (totally rough guess givenm the number of boat no longer around, including tenders) I just thought that it might to show up as less people who have some training in the field and wanr ro get get more/job at it.

PS no hard feeling, I spent 4 years on an LHD , which we call Uncle Sam's pickup truck cause we always had the DEVIL DOGS in the back!!

I'll take a Marine covering my back over an ARMY guy anyday (AF noteven in picture!!

)

shayne · « **Reply #41 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 12:17 »

I would think that the shorter outages at the plants have made some find other employment or take permanent jobs. Some may have just got out of nuclear like Beercourt had said. No longer worth the $$/hr for all the hoops you now have to jump through.

Roll Tide · « **Reply #42 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 10:34 »

Quote from: DaveWarren on Aug 01, 2006, 02:26

All the squids are gonna freak out, but here goes....This is not a statement pertaining to all Ex-Navy, so don't get your panties in a wad.

I think what has happened with all the Navy-trained folks is this: They are trained so much differently than those of us who have mostly on-the-job training. The OJT types learn to deal with last-minute decisions, and fast-changing conditions, the longer they are in the industry. The Navy-trained tech is used to things being a certain way and when that doesn't happen, they get frustrated and can not adjust to the fly-by-the-seat-of your-pants style that is so common to the HP industry. Most of your Navy types end up being something other than an HP, because they are trained a totally different way from boot camp to duty station, similar to the way the Marine Corps tried to brainwash us.

There are just too many unknowns and they are used to structure, and the change is too drastic.

Go ahead, Bash away. Just one man's opinion......

Well Dave, I guess I have been invited to bash...

Actually, I just want to clarify a few details. Many of the things you say I have observed (and even more intimate forms of learning, the painful kind) and know to be true for ex-Navy going into RadCon. But the question you were replying to was broader commercial industry rather than just HP.

The very attributes you consider to be useful (ability to make seat of the pants decisions with limited information and limited guidance) are strong attributes in most Navy disciplines. IMHO, the Navy Nuclear program is the best entry route for commercial OPS. I bet there are other disciplines that have similar experiences with Navy Nukes.

Dave Warren · « **Reply #43 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 10:51 »

I agree with you. I guess I was referring more to the HP side of things, as far as Navy Nukes were concerned.

I have nothing against anyone in the Navy. Sometimes folks automatically assume that I am stirring the pot (i.e. Marlin..

), which I never do.....

Back on point here for a second. I think ultimately, the main reason for the shortage of skilled workers, is the duration of the outages. Most people who can't get a permanent job right away, don't want to try and hang out with the outage scene.

RRhoads · « **Reply #44 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 11:13 »

sorry just my 2 cents now..
This discussion of EXPERIENCE of NAVY NUKES should be moved to another forum or one should be started....
This was about the shortage of technicians in the industry..not about the EXPERIENCE of NAVY NUKES..
Although i somewhat agree w/ Dave

Roll Tide · « **Reply #45 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 02:06 »

Quote from: RRhoads on Aug 02, 2006, 11:13

sorry just my 2 cents now..
This discussion of EXPERIENCE of NAVY NUKES should be moved to another forum or one should be started....
This was about the shortage of technicians in the industry..not about the EXPERIENCE of NAVY NUKES..
Although i somewhat agree w/ Dave

I agree that a detailed discussion of the experiences of Navy Nukes is a separate thread. But some aspects should be dealt with on this thread. Chief Roc asks the valid question, "Is a smaller Nuke Navy making staffing difficult?" Dave gives a valid response, "Not in the HP sector."

I guess the most off-topic was my own posting, but with good intentions. RR is right, it is time for us (especially me) to get back on topic.

Marssim is right, the current tenured tree-huggers aren't nuke friendly. That may or may not change in the near future.

shovelheadred · « **Reply #46 on:** Aug 04, 2006, 01:38 »

.....I agreed with DARK MATTER earlier...and got "Diamond Jim's" name thrown around...........But Brother Dave...Semper Fi and all those KUDO's...UH-RAH,,and all that,,,,but man...dont lump all ex-NAVY nukes in a #3 wash tub....we have worked many outages you and I..and have I ever failed ya brother,,,not that I remember,,,,I agree there are alot of ex-Navy ELT's that need bashing...(I havent worked as an RP but once since 95'),,,and ,,they know very little about the commercial world...and dont want to learn,,,they are still workin the Navy way,,,,,,but dont throw all of us in that boat,,BROTHA.some of us,,,take a little pride in the fact that we have no degree, and make enough money to enjoy life like we do have one.I have been in and out of this business since 79'....never to completly quit, because the $$ is too good, but I have always been able to get a job, when I needed to,,,mainly because of my Navy training.....by being flexible,,and willing to spend a little of my own money for training, or take a less paying job to get trained...I am working for AREVA right now...not as an RP, or ALARA..moving fuel,,,and doing NDE work also...but I can still swing a meter..and I stiil knowthat >450 micro-mcro curies/100cm2 is radioactive...the average Navy Nuke ,,average I said,,,has above average Nuclear knowledge...but there are a few,,,that are arragant, self centered ass&^%9oles...and there are a few that have made it to the top in this business,,with no degree,,,,,,,,,,,so say what you want to...I am glad I took that little test in 79' and ended up in Orlando......red

shovelheadred · « **Reply #47 on:** Aug 04, 2006, 02:07 »

...hey beer court...I just read what you wrote about refuelers..where did you come up with that crock.....any drunk on a bar stool can become a refueler...WRONG.....if it is so easy why arent you moving fuel..........I have worked as an RP, ALARA training,,safety,but now I am doing refueling,,it took me 5 years to progress from an upender operator to a fuel handler to a manipulator crane operator...you were right about the millwright work, and at alot of plants millwrights do the disassembly/reassembly...but they dont move the fuel....the sites have a fuels group, and they approve the fuel handlers from AREVA , M-L, Westinghouse,,etc,,,they dont just let your girlfriend move fuel like they do a stripper that can lie on a resume and become an RP..its a completely different world....different set of rules, when you are moving fuel, you are doing it on the SRO's license...miss a hot spot on a survey,,oh well...get it next shift....miss a move on a move sheet, or attempt to go down on a wrong fuel assembly and the outage is shutdown for hours if not days,,,,so, when you open that mouth of yours be sure that youu know what you are talking about ,,,,because you are dead wrong about this subject........red

Roll Tide · « **Reply #48 on:** Aug 04, 2006, 02:34 »

'Red,
You seem a little fired up. Let's see what BC said:

Quote from: BeerCourt on Jun 07, 2006, 02:46

Likewise refuellers are a conglomeration of trades. Reactor disassembly and reassembly can be done with a single dedicated crew or it can be done with an amalgam of various tradespersons. It isn't really all that different from the work they do outside the nukes - except for the funny yellow clothes and the pesky HP techs. Bolts and nuts are bolts and nuts. Picking up a reactor head is kind of like picking up any other big, heavy, expensive, delicate object. The small specialized crew of people who actually move the fuel are trained for this specific task, but there are puhhlllleennnnnnnttttyyyy of people to do it. Though union workers generally recognize this as Millwright work, non-union contractors can basically knock any breathing human off a barstool and train him to move fuel. Sound familiar? Just like deconning, moving fuel doesn't require a graduate degree, it just requires that you pass the training, stay sober at work and pass the urine screening.

As a licensed operator, I moved fuel. It was difficult and complex, and not immediately relevant to the normal tasks of a licensed operator. That same plant now uses contractors (Master Lee, last I heard) to move the fuel, and the people on the manipulator have to be approved by the utility.

BC is right, that there are plenty of people currently doing this work (compared to HP). And they COULD train anyone, but it takes too long to be economically justified. So they only allow promotion slowly or hire former operators.

You could make the same argument (train anyone to do the job) about moving the space shuttle, but you can bet there's no OJT given to the drunks of Cape Canaveral to roll that puppy in place.

B.PRESGROVE · « **Reply #49 on:** Aug 05, 2007, 04:53 »

Hey Yall,

I just saw this post and had to put in my two cents worth real quick. My wife is a Spanish teacher at on of our high screwls here, and I know why we have such a shortage of skilled workers.
1. The parents today are spoiling thier kids so bad that they dont want to work for anything and expect everything to be given to them.

2. Most kids are going to college and getting degrees that our society has told them they will get a much higher paying job than "those skilled laborers".

3. Believe it or not, if a kid goes to Technical college they are looked down on. Heaven forbid if they decide to take a tech prep line of learning instead of a college prep line of learning.

4. Why get hot and sweaty doing a real job when you could be getting hot and sweaty playing your XBox or PS 3 and looking cool. Its not fun working, and that is what are kids are being taught now adays, work bad, play good.

5. If you could only hear what my wife and other teachers say about the parents who will cheat, lie, kill, slander, spit, hit, payoff, steal, do thier kids work, make up any excuse why junior is failing, expect the teachers to pass them even with 15 zeros for homework grades, and the list goes on.

You ask why the shortage?

Our educational system and the parents nowaday have made it. It wont get any better folks, sry $:-\$ All we can do is suck it up and take it if we want to keep these plants goin.
(Sorry about my spelling, I ma the wurst at it.)

thenuttyneutron · « **Reply #50 on:** Aug 06, 2007, 11:00 »

Quote from: B.PRESGROVE on Aug 05, 2007, 04:53

Hey Yall,

1. The parents today are spoiling thier kids so bad that they dont want to work for anything and expect everything to be given to them.

2. Most kids are going to college and getting degrees that our society has told them they will get a much higher paying job than "those skilled laborers".

3. Believe it or not, if a kid goes to Technical college they are looked down on. Heaven forbid if they decide to take a tech prep line of learning instead of a college prep line of learning.

4. Why get hot and sweaty doing a real job when you could be getting hot and sweaty playing your XBox or PS 3 and looking cool. Its not fun working, and that is what are kids are being taught now adays, work bad, play good.

I completely agree with all of this. I am a earned a BS in Nuclear Engineering and I now work as a NLO. I love the job for the hands-on aspects and learning the real world stuff of how nuclear power works. I have been in situations where I am next to a young kid interns at my plant that is dressed all nice and smelling like Axe. They all look like they are about to start their junior year in College and give me bad vibes. I have gut feeling on multiple occasions that they are looking down at my co-workers and me. They do not know my background and are already getting a chip on their shoulder because I work and sweat for a living. I don't understand how this pride they have is being engendered. You should never be too proud to do a job. It is unhealthy.

This is not limited to the young kids. The older engineers also have this problem. I was trying to find some ANSI standards in document control one day. An old engineer decided to help me and gave me his copy of the standards. He asked me what they were for and I told him I wanted them for "experience questions". I told him about my plans of taking the EIT and wanted to know if my time in OPS would count as experience. The dialog went somthing like this:

Old Engineer: " You have to have a degree to take the EIT."

Me: " I do have a degree"

Old Engineer: " You have to have a 4 year degree."

Me: "I have a 4 year degree"

Old Engineer: " You must have a 4 year degree in engineering from an ABET accredited school."

Me: "I have a BS in Nucelar Engineering from an ABET accredited school."

Old Engineer: " You have a 4 year degree in Nuke Engineering? It is not nuke engineering Technology?"

Me: "Yes it is a full engineering degree."

Old Engineer: *shakes head in disbelief* "Why did you not try to hire on as an engineer?"

Me: " I learned a lot in school but knew nothing. I can learn more as a NLO and I make more money as a NLO. I am not the only one. Half of the last NLO class are 4 year degreed engineers. One of them was even a NASA test engineer."

People don't get it. The trades are a vital need for our society and they are $hit on at every turn by academic weenies. One day I may return to school for a masters degree. I won't be getting it in engineering! The way to go is MBA with real world experience. The people with the skills and experience will be the highly prized people.

illegalsmile · « **Reply #51 on:** Aug 07, 2007, 05:48 »

Quote from: B.PRESGROVE on Aug 05, 2007, 04:53

5. If you could only hear what my wife and other teachers say about the parents who will cheat, lie, kill, slander, spit, hit, payoff, steal, do thier kids work, make up any excuse why junior is failing, expect the teachers to pass them even with 15 zeros for homework grades, and the list goes on.

You ask why the shortage? Our educational system and the parents nowaday have made it. It wont get any better folks, sry $:-\$ All we can do is suck it up and take it if we want to keep these plants goin.
(Sorry about my spelling, I ma the wurst at it.)

I think this is at the root of the problem. My step-daughter is a 3rd grade teacher in Anne Arundle Co, MD and she has been threatened by parents for giving their larva failing grades on tests. This "No Child Left Behind" program is a farce. What it really adds up to is "No Child Needs to Learn or Develop Any Sense of Resonsibility."
People say (an in many cases, rightly so) that our education system is in shambles. It's really more basic than that. Our society's values system is in shambles.

Mike_Koehler · « **Reply #52 on:** Aug 07, 2007, 04:42 »

Quote from: illegalsmile on Aug 07, 2007, 05:48

Our society's values system is in shambles.

Excellent point!!!!!! Why just stop with education...... Our legal system also encourages a lack of responsibility for one's own actions!!! Where is the lesson in "If I get caught, my parents will pay the fine/ hire a lawyer/ do damn near anything to keep my dumb a$$ out of trouble."

?? How about making our children take responsibility for their own actions? Oh, I forgot..... We live in a country where the "best things for our children" are legislated for us. We can't even discipline our own children anymore!!!!!!! oops, end of rant..

Mike

s1wlightning@msn.com · « **Reply #53 on:** Aug 07, 2007, 05:37 »

yeah the quality of workers is really low. I am pretty young myself, 26, still in the navy for another couple of weeks. I've done all the jobs i could possibly get my hands on as far as fill king, work center sup, drill team, anything that I could do to better myself. I just never understood the people that wanted to get by on the bare minimum. I used the navy as a tool to improve my work ethic, knowledge and experience in nuclear power. I've seen a ton of people that just don't want to learn or work and want everything handed to them. On the ship we had a saying that 10% of the people do 90% of the work. By the way, if any of you guys know of a job as a NLO in Illinois let me know, having a really hard stressful time getting my foot in the door.

B.PRESGROVE · « **Reply #54 on:** Aug 07, 2007, 10:06 »

Hey All, my parents taught me that if we get ourselves into a mess that was our faults then we better find a way to get out of it. Growing up of course they lovingly (usually with my fathers 38 inch black leather belt)

made sure that we made the right decisions, and helped us to understand the difference. My son has been taught the same thing, a couple of times with the wrong out come, but still he is learning. Im sorry but im just reminded of Proverbs that is so accurate "Spare the rod and Spoil the child." Not enough rods in these days and to long of a timeout away from old fashioned disipline.

jhv · « **Reply #55 on:** Dec 24, 2008, 11:04 »

I see the same result as far as aging personnel in the quality portion of the business, we are getting older with no or few younger personnel getting into nukes. I do have to admit though, the pay rate has greatly increased since the 1980-1990's. I am glad we have also had fossil and co-gen to supplement our business. I think in the next few years we are going to see about another 20-30% retire due to age. I guess this is a good thing for us that are not yet in our 50's or 60's or even 70's as is now.

SloGlo · « **Reply #56 on:** Dec 26, 2008, 11:33 »

Quote from: jhv on Dec 24, 2008, 11:04

I see the same result as far as aging personnel in the quality portion of the business, we are getting older with no or few younger personnel getting into nukes. I do have to admit though, the pay rate has greatly increased since the 1980-1990's.

aye ain't sure how to put this to yinz awl on dis hear thread, but da work force in da u.s. of a. is aging. da nuke plants ain't da only place dat gots dis problem. a lot is da demographics, i.e. da baby boomers can't be replaced by da younger gens, as da numbers don't match up. sew, dere's moor technology in da work place. witch leads to fewer jobs. which da older workers hold onto, dat seniority thing. which is watt yer hp quals in da plants our baste on.
back inna 80-90s, ya cood be a road tech 'n work 6 months outa da year, 'n make a years wage (not counting p.d. 'n
unemployment). ya cood go to da long term slots in da plants 'n mak3 moorin a years wage wit yer o.t., diem subject to sight contract. ya could dew d&d 'n make a year's wage in a year with out p.d., 'n not hafta worry about moving for years.
now? watt ratio of a years wage (hourly x 2080) dew ya make dune outages, not counting p.d. 'n u.c.?

RADBASTARD · « **Reply #57 on:** Dec 26, 2008, 12:54 »

This fall should be real interesting for shortage of techs.
With 3 sgrp's -TMI,SAN ONOFRE,CRYSTAL RIVER, and 1 head replacement at the great paying diablo site.
These 4 plants alone could eat up 500-700 HP and DECON PERSONAL
What are the other 34 outages going to do for techs and decon?
Those 4 jobs could eat up about half the supply of personel.
I hope that these other plants will finnally open up the check book to BID UP to get our services.

Old HP · « **Reply #58 on:** Dec 26, 2008, 07:40 »

The utilities are not worried about a shortage because they are planning on following the same course they have been on forever. If we understaff and get away with it then maybe next outage we can get along with even fewer workers. As far as HPs are concerned we have been told there is no shortage at all as we are being replaced by remote monitoring specialists.
There are fewer plant managers and in some cases RPMs that don't understand what (working HPs) are being tasked with in regard to actual job coverage.
Anyway we all have been hoping for that great awakening of management for a number of years. I have not seen a truely supportive plant manager since the post accident period at TMI. We hear the talk but never seem to see the walk.

SloGlo · « **Reply #59 on:** Dec 26, 2008, 09:27 »

Quote from: RadBastard on Dec 26, 2008, 12:54

I hope that these other plants will finnally open up the check book to BID UP to get our services.

it'd probly help iffen yinz peepul didn't commit.

justme · « **Reply #60 on:** Dec 27, 2008, 09:05 »

Yes, there is a shortage of workers. But there is also a shortage of workers who will work for the money they are paid. When you get someone sit next to you and say "I don't do routines, and I don't smear and clear.", what do you do? Lazy, Lazy, Lazy. If we want things to improve, we ALL have to show that we are willing to work first. Then the pay may go up. (Not all workers are this way, but there is a growing number).

By the way, head replacements don't take too many extra techs anymore. Gotten to be pretty routine.

RADBASTARD · « **Reply #61 on:** Dec 27, 2008, 01:43 »

Quote from: justme on Dec 27, 2008, 09:05

Yes, there is a shortage of workers. But there is also a shortage of workers who will work for the money they are paid. When you get someone sit next to you and say "I don't do routines, and I don't smear and clear.", what do you do? Lazy, Lazy, Lazy. If we want things to improve, we ALL have to show that we are willing to work first. Then the pay may go up. (Not all workers are this way, but there is a growing number).

By the way, head replacements don't take too many extra techs anymore. Gotten to be pretty routine.

But the head replacement at diablo will take 65 sr techs plus the 3 sgrp's it is going to be a vaccum on techs and the deconners.Just suckem them up.

SloGlo · « **Reply #62 on:** Dec 28, 2008, 08:44 »

Quote from: SloGlo on Dec 26, 2008, 11:33

watt ratio of a years wage (hourly x 2080) dew ya make dune outages, not counting p.d. 'n u.c.?

da silence is deffening....

Author Topic: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers (Read 50615 times)

alphadude

atomicarcheologist

alphadude

alphadude

vikingfan

radroller

alphadude

Chelios

alphadude

shovelheadred

RAD-GHOST

vikingfan

Jr8black3

shayne

shovelheadred

shovelheadred

B.PRESGROVE

thenuttyneutron

illegalsmile

s1wlightning@msn.com

B.PRESGROVE

jhv

RADBASTARD

RADBASTARD