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Offline Rennhack

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #25 on: Jun 07, 2006, 04:44 »
The average today is closer to $24.  Even when you consider that the pay rates plumetted in the 80's to around $11 to $13, the rebound has barely kept up with inflation.
The $17.50 in 1981, adjusted for inflation is $40 today.  On the flip side, the $24 being paid currently equals $10.73 in 1981 dollars.  If you had stayed on the road, your pay would have actually dropped and never recovered since 1981.

If you use the Import Price Index (MPI), it's closer to $21/hr.
If you use the Producer Price Index (PPI), it's closer to $26/hr.
If you use the Gross Domestic Product Deflator (GDPD), it's closer to $33/hr.
If you use the Consumer Price Index (CPI), it's closer to $36/hr.  <-- Cost of living.
If you use the NASA New Start Index (NNSII), it's closer to $41/hr.
If you use the Employment Cost Index (ECI), it's closer to $43/hr.



Offline SloGlo

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #26 on: Jun 07, 2006, 08:39 »
Saying that there is a shortage of people to do nuke outages is a lot like trying to have a parade where all the bands march side-by-side and then complaining that the street isn't as wide as it should be.

while i agree wit bout 99% of yer post, i gotta point out there is a shortage.... of planners who actually plan in the industry.  seems like sumbuddy ought to open up that job slot.  i'd like to volunteer.
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Offline darkmatter

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #27 on: Jun 09, 2006, 09:27 »
If you use the Import Price Index (MPI), it's closer to $21/hr.
If you use the Producer Price Index (PPI), it's closer to $26/hr.
If you use the Gross Domestic Product Deflator (GDPD), it's closer to $33/hr.
If you use the Consumer Price Index (CPI), it's closer to $36/hr.  <-- Cost of living.
If you use the NASA New Start Index (NNSII), it's closer to $41/hr.
If you use the Employment Cost Index (ECI), it's closer to $43/hr.




Working in the early 80's, I kept a record of my expenses and earnings (take home). As a Sr HP contractor, we took home an average of a grand a week. Comparing what I bought and could afford in the 80's to what I can afford now, we would have to be taking home $2,500.00 a week now to live a simalar standard of life.

Is it any wonder then that there seems to be a declining number of skilled and enthusiastic workers? Maybe its just me but the new hires lately don't seem to have the work attitudes I remember among ourselves when we were starting out. I tell some of the outage stories and antics only to be dis-believed. I go to work setting up a job with some of the Jrs , Sumps, Pump rebuilds, etc. and just can't believe how I can outwork, outhaul, and outlast these wimps as they seem ready to quit as soon as they pop a bead of sweat. And you thought contractors had a patent on avoiding work----check out the new Jr house Techs, the excuses to not doing work. (I have a appointment with HR, training, call in sick on a hot job day, etc.)

Could it be the less incentive of less actual pay?
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Offline ChiefRocscooter

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #28 on: Jul 28, 2006, 11:02 »
Just a thought/ quetion is the huge reducition in the number of Navy nuc's (and with the fewer prototypes less Navy civ's too) having any impact on the industry?  I know they were/are only a portion of the work force but I would think that having such a reduction of "trained" worker available to enter the field is having soome impact?

Rob
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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #29 on: Jul 31, 2006, 11:41 »
.........DARK MATTER.couldnt agree with you more...I havent worked a power plant job as an RP since 95, until I worked IP-2 this spring....like you said the quality of techs is down,,,the attitude is that they should make more and do less.....no respect for experienced techs,,,,,and to tell a story, if it didnt happen in the 90's most of them were in grammer school and or crappin green.......there was a tech there that carried the mail..."Diamond Jim Brady"...from Philly..know him?...5 like him and you could run an outage...the old school way,,,,,,,,,,,red

Offline Mike McFarlin

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #30 on: Jul 31, 2006, 01:00 »
If you have experience, then you get all the hot jobs while the inexperienced techs still remain inexperienced.
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Offline Already Gone

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #31 on: Jul 31, 2006, 04:23 »
.........DARK MATTER.couldnt agree with you more...I havent worked a power plant job as an RP since 95, until I worked IP-2 this spring....like you said the quality of techs is down,,,the attitude is that they should make more and do less.....no respect for experienced techs,,,,,and to tell a story, if it didnt happen in the 90's most of them were in grammer school and or crappin green.......there was a tech there that carried the mail..."Diamond Jim Brady"...from Philly..know him?...5 like him and you could run an outage...the old school way,,,,,,,,,,,red

No respect???? Where do you think they learned that attitude in the first place?  You have a few people in this business with 20 years experience, and you have a lot more with 1 year's experience 20 times over.
I remember Diamond Jim from Oyster Creek in 1988.  Pretty entertaining guy he was.
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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #32 on: Aug 01, 2006, 04:14 »
Shortage of Skilled Workers?  Not really, they are just living in other countries right now!

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am now taking French, German and Spanish lessons!




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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #33 on: Aug 01, 2006, 08:00 »
.........DARK MATTER.couldnt agree with you more...I havent worked a power plant job as an RP since 95, until I worked IP-2 this spring....like you said the quality of techs is down,,,the attitude is that they should make more and do less.....no respect for experienced techs,,,,,and to tell a story, if it didnt happen in the 90's most of them were in grammer school and or crappin green.......there was a tech there that carried the mail..."Diamond Jim Brady"...from Philly..know him?...5 like him and you could run an outage...the old school way,,,,,,,,,,,red
I remember Jim - stayed under vessel pulling drives for 6 1/2 hrs at Pilgrim - his thought..."I don't need a relief, I'm already dressed out and getting paid.....
4 like him and you could run an outage.
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Offline Dave Warren

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #34 on: Aug 01, 2006, 02:26 »
Just a thought/ quetion is the huge reducition in the number of Navy nuc's (and with the fewer prototypes less Navy civ's too) having any impact on the industry?  I know they were/are only a portion of the work force but I would think that having such a reduction of "trained" worker available to enter the field is having soome impact?

Rob

All the squids are gonna freak out, but here goes....This is not a statement pertaining to all Ex-Navy, so don't get your panties in a wad.

I think what has happened with all the Navy-trained folks is this: They are trained so much differently than those of us who have mostly on-the-job training. The OJT types learn to deal with last-minute decisions, and fast-changing conditions, the longer they are in the industry. The Navy-trained tech is used to things being a certain way and when that doesn't happen, they get frustrated and can not adjust to the fly-by-the-seat-of your-pants style that is so common to the HP industry. Most of your Navy types end up being something other than an HP, because they are trained a totally different way from boot camp to duty station, similar to the way the Marine Corps tried to brainwash us.

There are just too many unknowns and they are used to structure, and the change is too drastic.

Go ahead, Bash away. Just one man's opinion......

Offline Marlin

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #35 on: Aug 01, 2006, 02:49 »

There are just too many unknowns and they are used to structure, and the change is too drastic.

Go ahead, Bash away. Just one man's opinion......

Damn Dave did you get a new paddle. What you say has plenty of truth in it, but it can apply to anyone moving from one environment to another. In the Navy "Ustafish" was the last assignment of a sailor that could not let go of the way they did business in thier last command. How many times have you heard someone say "well thats not the way we did it at my last plant". It may also be that many ex Navy move on because they are better equiped to do so.
   Now come on Dave lets play nice after all I have always had greatest respect for the Marines that gaurded our gates, after all not one was stolen the whole time I was in. ;D ;D ;D ;D

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #36 on: Aug 01, 2006, 03:16 »
amen and much karma to ya dave from one jarhead to another !

Offline Dave Warren

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #37 on: Aug 01, 2006, 03:22 »
Semper Fi, vikingfan......

Now Marlin, you know that I spent 6 months on a ship with you boys.
I am not bashing anyone. I spent many days and nights in the Far East with Navy Corpsmen.

All I am saying is this: A good percentage of guys in this business, that are high-strung, (just slightly) anal-retentive, and always worried that something isn't going the way they think it should, tend to have spent time in the Navy.  

It is very possible that they are more equipped to move on, and they should be applauded for that. It is just like this business having a high rate of divorce. Just a mental note of a trend I wanted to share....:)

Offline Marlin

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #38 on: Aug 01, 2006, 04:40 »
Just puttin my paddle in the pot with ya, as long as we are going to drift off of the subject which I think was the lack of future nuke workers and the aging work force, now where's my walker (Johnnie Walker that is).
« Last Edit: Aug 02, 2006, 11:46 by Marlin »

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #39 on: Aug 01, 2006, 08:04 »
Red, and Beer Court refered to Jim Brady as " Diamond Jim Brady".. It has to be the same Jim Brady I worked with last summer in Cleveland,, We called him "Jim Big Dog Brady"..Like many have said here you could staff a outage with just a handful of techs with his will to get the job done. In 21 years I've never seen a tech move there azz and get a job done like him, and the scary thing is that he is so smart... Hands down the best HP tech I've ever worked with..


Offline ChiefRocscooter

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #40 on: Aug 01, 2006, 08:57 »
Dave,
        My point was more about there being less of them now days than in the past.  Not so much about how they did.  I am sure some were great, some sucked and so were so so, but I would guess there are gettting to be less and less ex-squids out there with Nuc training.  I am guessing here but I would bet that there are less then ???? half the number of Nuc in the Navy today as in say 1986. (totally rough guess givenm the number of boat no longer around, including tenders)  I just thought that it might to show up as less people who have some training in the field and wanr ro get get more/job at it.

PS no hard feeling, I spent 4 years on an LHD , which we call Uncle Sam's pickup truck cause we always had the DEVIL DOGS in the back!! 8) I'll take a Marine covering my back over an ARMY guy anyday (AF noteven in picture!! :) ;))
« Last Edit: Aug 01, 2006, 09:06 by ChiefRocscooter »
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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #41 on: Aug 02, 2006, 12:17 »
I would think that the shorter outages at the plants have made some find other employment or take permanent jobs.  Some may have just got out of nuclear like Beercourt had said.  No longer worth the $$/hr for all the hoops you now have to jump through.

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #42 on: Aug 02, 2006, 10:34 »
All the squids are gonna freak out, but here goes....This is not a statement pertaining to all Ex-Navy, so don't get your panties in a wad.

I think what has happened with all the Navy-trained folks is this: They are trained so much differently than those of us who have mostly on-the-job training. The OJT types learn to deal with last-minute decisions, and fast-changing conditions, the longer they are in the industry. The Navy-trained tech is used to things being a certain way and when that doesn't happen, they get frustrated and can not adjust to the fly-by-the-seat-of your-pants style that is so common to the HP industry. Most of your Navy types end up being something other than an HP, because they are trained a totally different way from boot camp to duty station, similar to the way the Marine Corps tried to brainwash us.

There are just too many unknowns and they are used to structure, and the change is too drastic.

Go ahead, Bash away. Just one man's opinion......

Well Dave, I guess I have been invited to bash...  ;D

Actually, I just want to clarify a few details. Many of the things you say I have observed (and even more intimate forms of learning, the painful kind) and know to be true for ex-Navy going into RadCon. But the question you were replying to was broader commercial industry rather than just HP.

The very attributes you consider to be useful (ability to make seat of the pants decisions with limited information and limited guidance) are strong attributes in most Navy disciplines. IMHO, the Navy Nuclear program is the best entry route for commercial OPS. I bet there are other disciplines that have similar experiences with Navy Nukes.
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Offline Dave Warren

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #43 on: Aug 02, 2006, 10:51 »
I agree with you. I guess I was referring more to the HP side of things, as far as Navy Nukes were concerned.

I have nothing against anyone in the Navy. Sometimes folks automatically assume that I am stirring the pot (i.e. Marlin.. ;)), which I never do.....

Back on point here for a second. I think ultimately, the main reason for the shortage of skilled workers, is the duration of the outages. Most people who can't get a permanent job right away, don't want to try and hang out with the outage scene.

Offline RRhoads

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #44 on: Aug 02, 2006, 11:13 »
sorry just my 2 cents now..
This discussion of EXPERIENCE of NAVY NUKES should be moved to another forum or one should be started....
This was about the shortage of technicians in the industry..not about the  EXPERIENCE of NAVY NUKES..
Although i somewhat agree w/ Dave :P

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #45 on: Aug 02, 2006, 02:06 »
sorry just my 2 cents now..
This discussion of EXPERIENCE of NAVY NUKES should be moved to another forum or one should be started....
This was about the shortage of technicians in the industry..not about the  EXPERIENCE of NAVY NUKES..
Although i somewhat agree w/ Dave :P

I agree that a detailed discussion of the experiences of Navy Nukes is a separate thread. But some aspects should be dealt with on this thread. Chief Roc asks the valid question, "Is a smaller Nuke Navy making staffing difficult?" Dave gives a valid response, "Not in the HP sector."

I guess the most off-topic was my own posting, but with good intentions. RR is right, it is time for us (especially me) to get back on topic.

Marssim is right, the current tenured tree-huggers aren't nuke friendly. That may or may not change in the near future.
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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #46 on: Aug 04, 2006, 01:38 »
.....I agreed with DARK MATTER earlier...and got "Diamond Jim's" name thrown around...........But Brother Dave...Semper Fi and all those KUDO's...UH-RAH,,and all that,,,,but man...dont lump all ex-NAVY nukes in a #3 wash tub....we have worked many outages you and I..and have I ever failed ya brother,,,not that I remember,,,,I agree there are alot of ex-Navy ELT's that need bashing...(I havent worked as an RP but once since 95'),,,and  ,,they know very little about the commercial world...and dont want to learn,,,they are still workin the Navy way,,,,,,but dont throw all of us in that boat,,BROTHA.some of us,,,take a little pride in the fact that we have no degree, and make enough money to enjoy life like we do have one.I have been in and out of this business since 79'....never to completly quit, because the $$ is too good, but I have always been able to get a job, when I needed to,,,mainly because of my Navy training.....by being flexible,,and willing to spend a little of my own money for training, or take a less paying job to get trained...I am working for AREVA right now...not as an RP, or ALARA..moving fuel,,,and doing NDE work also...but I can still swing a meter..and I stiil knowthat >450 micro-mcro curies/100cm2 is radioactive...the average Navy Nuke ,,average I said,,,has above average Nuclear knowledge...but there are a few,,,that are arragant, self centered ass&^%9oles...and there are a few that have made it to the top in this business,,with no degree,,,,,,,,,,,so say what you want to...I am glad I took that little test in 79' and ended up in Orlando......red

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #47 on: Aug 04, 2006, 02:07 »
...hey beer court...I just read what you wrote about refuelers..where did you come up with that crock.....any drunk on a bar stool can become a refueler...WRONG.....if it is so easy why arent you moving fuel..........I have worked as an RP, ALARA training,,safety,but now I am doing refueling,,it took me 5 years to progress from an upender operator to a fuel handler to a manipulator crane operator...you were right about the millwright work, and at alot of plants millwrights do the disassembly/reassembly...but they dont move the fuel....the sites have a fuels group, and they approve the fuel handlers from AREVA , M-L, Westinghouse,,etc,,,they dont just let your girlfriend move fuel like they do a stripper that can lie on a resume and become an RP..its a completely different world....different set of rules, when you are moving fuel, you are doing it on the SRO's license...miss a hot spot on a survey,,oh well...get it next shift....miss a move on a move sheet, or attempt to go down on a wrong fuel assembly and the outage is shutdown for hours if not days,,,,so, when you open that mouth of yours be sure that youu know what you are talking about ,,,,because you are dead wrong about this subject........red

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #48 on: Aug 04, 2006, 02:34 »
'Red,
You seem a little fired up. Let's see what BC said:


Likewise refuellers are a conglomeration of trades.  Reactor disassembly and reassembly can be done with a single dedicated crew or it can be done with an amalgam of various tradespersons.  It isn't really all that different from the work they do outside the nukes - except for the funny yellow clothes and the pesky HP techs.  Bolts and nuts are bolts and nuts.  Picking up a reactor head is kind of like picking up any other big, heavy, expensive, delicate object.   The small specialized crew of people who actually move the fuel are trained for this specific task, but there are puhhlllleennnnnnnttttyyyy of people to do it.  Though union workers generally recognize this as Millwright work, non-union contractors can basically knock any breathing human off a barstool and train him to move fuel.  Sound familiar?  Just like deconning, moving fuel doesn't require a graduate degree, it just requires that you pass the training, stay sober at work and pass the urine screening.

As a licensed operator, I moved fuel. It was difficult and complex, and not immediately relevant to the normal tasks of a licensed operator. That same plant now uses contractors (Master Lee, last I heard) to move the fuel, and the people on the manipulator have to be approved by the utility.

BC is right, that there are plenty of people currently doing this work (compared to HP). And they COULD train anyone, but it takes too long to be economically justified. So they only allow promotion slowly or hire former operators.

You could make the same argument (train anyone to do the job) about moving the space shuttle, but you can bet there's no OJT given to the drunks of Cape Canaveral to roll that puppy in place.
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Re: Looming Shortage of Skilled Workers
« Reply #49 on: Aug 05, 2007, 04:53 »
Hey Yall,

I just saw this post and had to put in my two cents worth real quick.  My wife is a Spanish teacher at on of our high screwls here, and I know why we have such a shortage of skilled workers. 
1.  The parents today are spoiling thier kids so bad that they dont want to work for anything and expect everything to be given to them.

2.  Most kids are going to college and getting degrees that our society has told them they will get a much higher paying job than "those skilled laborers".

3.  Believe it or not, if a kid goes to Technical college they are looked down on.  Heaven forbid if they decide to take a tech prep line of learning instead of a college prep line of learning.

4.  Why get hot and sweaty doing a real job when you could be getting hot and sweaty playing your XBox or PS 3 and looking cool.  Its not fun working, and that is what are kids are being taught now adays, work bad, play good.

5.  If you could only hear what my wife and other teachers say about the parents who will cheat, lie, kill, slander, spit, hit, payoff, steal, do thier kids work, make up any excuse why junior is failing, expect the teachers to pass them even with 15 zeros for homework grades, and the list goes on.

You ask why the shortage?   ???  Our educational system and the parents nowaday have made it.  It wont get any better folks, sry  :-\  All we can do is suck it up and take it if we want to keep these plants goin.
(Sorry about my spelling, I ma the wurst at it.)

 


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