NLO Training

[RxW592638]

Curious about the level of difficulty of NLO classroom training at commercial plants compared to the training at Naval Nuclear Power School.

Any comments from anyone?

[shayne]

Easy compaired to NPS.  It is more like Prototype classroom phase, just little more detail and many more larger systems.  About 6 months of classroom covering systems, admin, firefighting, etc.  Then about a year of doing quals in the plant.

[Roll Tide]

I wasn't in the "kinder, gentler" NNPS, but there is no comparison. Any Navy Nuke will be successful with 40 dedicated hours per week in NLO training. I have seen Navy Nukes be successful with much less than 40 hours of dedication per week.

[RxW592638]

Not sure what Roll Tide means by 40 dedicated hours per week.

Is this 40 hours in the classroom or an additional 40 hours of self study outside the classroom per week?

Also, is there homework, required reading, etc... performed after classroom instruction has ended and, if so, is this time compensated by the company?

Specific info on Exelon's NLO training programs would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[shayne]

40 hours is your classroom and study time.  Classroom time may be only 25-30 hours a week, and the other 15-10 hours is for your study/reading/etc.  I don't think too many companies will let you work over 40 hours/week for the classroom phase, but there could be some exceptions. 

[Roll Tide]

They won't pay you over 40 hours most places. BUT if you use that 40 hours, it will be enough. If you shoot the breeze during the 40 hours, you may need to make up for it during your own time.

[hamsamich]

At brunswick in 1997 NLO class, we were allowed some extra time to study for overtime....5 or 10 hours I think?  But you had to get it approved thru your supervisor, usually a CRS (control room sup).  You could study your notes and material at home if you wanted to.  We ended up working about 35 hours a week on average.  Some who were barely passing stayed over, but most left somewhat early.

It was fairly hard, but not nearly as hard as NPS.  Comparing it to prototype classroom phase is good....but sometimes the quality of the training program/instructors won't be as good or as "cut and dry" as the Nav.  You realize this when a couple questions pop up on the test that aren't in any of the training material or your notes or the instructors mouth...our's were good though, but I've heard some horror stories.  Mainly horror stories about Lic. Class though.  A site would have to be pretty screwed up to make NLO class anything below average.  If you are doing any more than 10 extra hours a week I would be surprised as an EX-Navy Nuke.

[M1Ark]

Hamsamich got it right.  NNPS and prototype told you via classroom instruction, student text or on watch all you needed to pass.  Navy volume of info was high and elivered at a faster rate but you were given all of the info.  You just had to spew the info when asked.

Civilian nuke operates under the premise that it's a "full coverage course",  what isn't covered in the classroom or textbook will be covered in the exam.  Unfortunately your grades will reflect how you learned the info.

At my first plant during initial NLO training I realized early on that there were 90 systems we were being taught that I needed to have a high level of knowledge.  That's a marked increase when to compared the number of systems from my last ship in the navy.  I also realized that the time allocated for classroom training was only to cover the high points based on instructor opinion.  The guy writing the exam might base his exam topics under separate set of opinions and still be bounded by his required objectives and knowledge & abilities requirements.

[ChiefRocscooter]

So does the process follow the same class/plant/ get signoffs training pipeline or do they do it differently.  I mean do you have to do system drawing and answer questions to get signed off on systems?  How do the process work?

Rob

[Roll Tide]

Drawings vary by plant. Usedtaplant had drawings of a few very important systems, where you could get confused and mess up (such as AFW, ECCS). Basic flowpaths were required on other systems (condensate, feed).
Current plant would have you draw plumbing if the system was taught.

Either you get all clasroom and then go on shift, or phases where you get the systems for the first watchstation, then repeat. No system checkouts, but oral boards at many plants.

[Fermi2]

The Breadth of knowledge in the commercial world is a lot larger, the depth not so much. If you don't know how to read electrical, I+C, wiring diagrams, and logic prints I would suggest taking a course in them, it'll help you a lot in the commercial world.

RxW592638 atomicairedale is an Exelon NLO. He might be able to answer your questions. Given the drive towards deregulation and cutting costs I doubt anyone pays OT for Study time. When I was in NLO Initial I put in some extra time because I planned on getting into a License Class ASAP and figured it would benefit me to get as much systems knowledge as I could. It depends on what you want out of it I guess.

There was another question concerning Quals. Most commercial plants require you to do everything twice, the first time is a training sig where you get help from the Trainer. The second is an evaluation where you are expected to either simulate or perform the task without help from the evaluator.

Mike

[ChiefRocscooter]

With my ET2(6 yrs) and EMC(16+ yrs) background prints and diagrams should not be a problem.  Are there a lot of EM's and ET's that stay NLO or do a bunch move off into I&C and maint. Does being of any particular rate help going NLO or SRO?

Rob

[Fermi2]

Hmmm Good question, so far as my experience goes ET/EM weren't any more likely to move to maintenance than an MM.

Proportionally (and I mean given the certain mix of ET/EM/MMs) MMs tend to be more likely to become an SRO and in most cases be a better SRO. There are exceptions of course. It's probably due to MM having to have a good understanding on how systems in the plant integrate. Its been my experience as an NLO, RO, SRO and trainer that MMs tend to catch on with commercial interrelationships better than the other ratings. Commercial plants are all about systems relationships even on the most minute scale.  Just remember, a bright guy is a bright guy regardless of specialty so what I just wrote isn't applicable to everyone of every rate.  For instance, Fermi has an SM whose intials are MK. He was an ET who graduated from an Auto Mechanics course in a VoTech HS. I've known him since I was in my teens. This guy was widely respected for his awesome technical knowledge of Mechanics, Electronics, Electricity, and Systems Relationships, he could translate this knowledge into solid planning and decision making. The reason I point this out is everytime said for the most part MMs make the better SROs this guy gets brought up and I'm always the first to say heck yeah he's as good as anyone in the business. (Plus he's a blast to party with!!!!)

My last shift at Fermi had the following mix. Keep in mind it was non standard as I had more Non Navy guys than most shifts.

SM: (me) MM/ELT NLO/RO/SRO

CRS: EM NLO/RO/SRO

Shift Engineer/STA: Non Naval Experience, Instant SRO. (The one I had just prior to leaving was an Instant SRO with a conventional ET Background. SE/STA # 1 was a Nuke Eng, Number 2 was a Mech Eng. Both were instant SROs. The Nuke Eng had worked as an STA for a few years before becoming an SRO, the Mech Eng (conventional ET) came over from Turbine Engineering.

4 ROs: One was an EM, One was an MM/ELT, one an MM who had been denuked,  the other was an ET. All were former NLOs, the MM/ELT became an SRO

8 NLOs: 3 were MMs, 2 were Non Navy with RP experience, 3 were Non Navy and had been deconners.   All were excellent operators, great decision makers and worked their butts off to help each other. Their only major fault was a total lack of respect for the Devine Beingness of their way too wise and benevolent Shift Manager.

Mike

[hamsamich]

I think being an ex mechanic/trician makes the best NLO, but not by much.  Just a bit of an edge there.  And not as much help later for going for a lic.  I think a heavy ERS type person would make a killer NPO.  Or maybe the best AEA on the boat would be comparable for a trician.  I suppose if a really good Reactor Technician who loved being out in the spaces and didn't just do it as a nub but really liked it might be a uber-NPO.

Knowing how to read drawings would be a big plus.  I haven't heard of and we did not use an oral board to complete NLO class.  Later though, we did have a checkout with the SS at the end of each watchstation qual (like Reactor Building, Turbine Building, etc), and at times he might invite a CRS to help question, kinda an oral board.

Knowing system drawings would help, but the questions are usually mult. choice.  I did well in NLO because I practiced and learned the drawings just like in the Nav.  That was actually what my first and sometimes only objective was for me in NLO class was to learn the drawing and what each component did and take the test.  While the instructor was teaching, I was making a drawing then listing the functions/purposes next to each component almost everytime.

Learn Drawing, function of each component, and general location, then a last catagory I call "intangibles".  Intangibles for this discussion means "something about the system that is very important, historically, integrated plant, or overall function that isn't readily obvious or apparent".  Like knowing why dual unit cable spread rooms are now seperated by a firewall plus other fire-protections in all nuc-plants.  Browns Ferry fire.  Or, knowing most desirable sources by preference for make-up water if the fuel pool is leaking.  1,2,3 etc.  Things like that.

[Fermi2]

I do recommend learning to draw systems whether it's required or not. My current utility doesn't require it but I've learned to draw every one including the electrical distribution system (and the ED system here is the most MONSTROUS in the industry!, It's robust to say the least)

Mike

[shayne]

Just knowing how to draw systems on a basic level will certainly help you understand the system better.  I usually learned a simple one line functional block diagram type picture for all the mechanical/electrical systems (I have EM/EWS background).  It lacked the details that a P&ID type drawing had, but I could easy explain my way through the system and understood how it performs all its functions as well as its relationships with other systems.  For any exam, I would draw a functional diagram and then convert it to a P&ID type picture with pumps, valves, Hx, drains, vents, etc.  Most of the notes I did take in the classroom were on the back of the system P&ID's and often had the major flowpaths highlighted with associated notes right on the drawing.

I also found that "a lack of knowledge" is easily dismissed if you know where to get answers and can do your own research to find answers.  Although it may not get you through a closed book exam, it certainly helps when you are in the plant.  At Fermi, finishing all my quals with MK, I certainly felt I had "a lack of knowledge"

[ChiefRocscooter]

OK how about this, do any of the classes you take to get a TESC or Excelisor Nuc degree help when working to become an NLO?  How about an RO/SRO?  I am wondering if they  difference in the degrees (ABET) and all makes a difference? (I would giv e my opinion on it but I have no true experience in civ world to base it so hearing it from you guys in the know will help.

Rob

[shayne]

I didn't take any of those classes for TESC or Excelisor degree, but I don't think it would make that much of a difference.  Just having Navy Nuclear Power on your resume makes you qualified.  Getting hired as NLO would be based more on how well you will work out in operations, such as your decision making skills, team player, know when to ask questions, work safely, etc.

It is possible for a Navy Nuke with 6 years to start as NLO, move up to RO, then up to SRO in Operations.  Most of it is based on the individual and what they want to do (or willing to do).  Having a ABET degree could get you into a SRO position as an STA/Shift Engineer.

I guess it is possible that if a spot in licensing class is between you and an equal co-worker, you maybe selected for the job because of a degree.  Usually, they are going to pick the individual that will make it through the class, have good understanding of the plant, and that has the experience (decision making , team player, know when to ask questions, work safely, etc.) that will make a good RO.

[hamsamich]

if you got a piece of paper from an accredited school it should always help, especially one relevant to your field.  my buddy who has one did say he feels a degree from a more traditional school is signifigantly better, like Penn State or something like that.  but he took his  excelsior degree (i think it was called NY regents then)and turned it into an MBA from Univ. of Delaware later on.  He started out as a Non-Licsensed Operator and is now the Director of Finance for one of the major nuclear power plant companies at age 36, so it can't be that bad!!!

[Trinian23]

I'll try to answer a couple of your questions since I work as an NLO at an Exelon plant.

They have tried to standardize the training pipeline across our entire fleet so the information should be accurate but maybe not precise.

1) The NLO class will consist of 6 months (or so) of classroom training where you will cover GFES (general fundamentals, think heat transfer, thermo, basic physics, reactor and operational physics, etc) and then you will take a GFES final BASED on an old NRC GFES exam, so if you study the old NRC exams, you should do all right... however there is always that one question that makes you wonder. This will not be an actual NRC exam that counts towards any sort of license, just one based on old NRC exams. They will use this exam as a benchmark to determine whether or not you will be able to pass the actual NRC GFES exam when you go for your license.
During GFES you will have a lot of extra time to study and you should have no problem based on you Navy Nuke experience, I studied 1-3 hrs a day plus a little extra on the weekends.

2) After GFES, you will move into systems, this was a little harder for me (I was an EM). You won't be required to draw any systems, however, knowing how to draw a one line diagram of the system helps immensely! I studied the most during this period of time, typically 2-4 hrs a night plus around 8 hrs on the weekend. Anytime you study on your own, Exelon will not pay OT for, so it all depends on how motivated you are. Systems training was kind of a "shock" to me because I was used to the fairly simple Navy systems. In the commercial world, there are a whole bunch more systems and sometimes you spend as much time on the floor drain system as you do on the ECCS systems... this is where the quality of the instructor comes into play, the better the instructor, the more you will get out of it. You may get an Oral board during this time.

3) After Systems training, you will have (depending on the site) Radwaste Operations Center (ROC) training where they teach you the ins and outs of the ROC. Pay attention, because this will most likely be the last qual that you get and you won't recieve any more training on it.

4) After all this they move you on shift to perform the OJT/TPE portion of the quals. Exelon does position based quals vice watchstation quals, so you will qualify all of your watchstations before you are qualified to stand any of them.  This portion consists of signatures for various evolutions which require 2 sigs. The first sig is for OJT, whoever you are U/I with walks you through the evolution asking questions, etc.. similar to the Navy. The sig is for TPE (Training Performance Evaluation) where they just observe you doing the evolution with zero input, if you mess up, you don't get the sig. Different ways of messing up include not having the proper PPE, not utilizing proper Human performance techniques (i.e. STAR or Stop, Think, Act Review, similar to FOUTAP in the Navy, flagging, peer check, etc.) not placekeeping in the procedure, skipping a step, proceeding in the face of uncertainty, etc. Once all your sigs are done, you do area walkthroughs with a SRO. Then you are qualified.

Exelon has moved to the idea of hiring NLO's who they want to be SRO's because they have found that NLO's who work their way up through the ranks tend to be better SRO's and leaders, so go in with the attitude of learning. It is very easy to think that because of your Navy experience, you immediately know it all, don't fall into that trap, true, you have experience, but not the knowledge. I have been qualified for almost a year now and still annoy and bother my fellow operators with questions. The easiest trap to fall into is being to cocky and messing something up.

The whole process actually tends to be shorter then non-exelon plants. It took me about 14 months from start to finish to be fully qualified with an outage stuck in there for good measure.

I hope this helps.

Bill

[RxW592638]

Trianian23:

Thanks for the input.

All of the information was helpful and I'm pretty excited about starting with Exelon.

Hope others have been able to benefit from this topic I started a few days ago.

[Fermi2]

Which plant will you be starting at?

Mike

[BuckyNuke]

I'm kinda curious to see what plant you'll be starting at too... I just spoke to a representative from Exelon at Oyster Creek tonight about a NLO position. I have an interview in a couple weeks.

[Fermi2]

Make sure when you get a chance to ask questions that you nail them down on the status of their Operating License Renewal. Right now Oyster Creeks Operating License Expires in something like 3 or 3 years and Exelon is in a serious dog fight with some well funded groups concerning renewal of that license. At the most that facility will only be open an additional 23 years at the worst it'l be SD in something like 2009. If I had my preference I'd go to a place that has at least 10 to 12 years left on its license and is filing for license renewal.

5 Loop BWR 2s are DOSE traps in the containment.

Mike

[ChiefRocscooter]

Does anyone think that the renewal issue might be the reason they have been listing lots of jobs all over? 
Are they having hard time keeping people who see writing on the wall?

Rob

[Roll Tide]

It could be the writing on the wall, or it could be the fact that the industry is becoming more competitive. I remember talking to some big whig downtown buddy of my Dad (who has since retired) back in 2001 about getting a job offer with TVA. He said they would like to bring in some people currently licensed at other plants to go through instant SRO class and become unit supervisors. They had previously done it with AUO and SM, but not US under the HR policies they had in place.

5 years later, they have done it at every TVA site multiple times.

The Oyster Creek specific details would be more appropriately discussed under Region I Talk About Oyster Creek. http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,984.25.html

Some of the things speculated by Roc are likely true

[Fermi2]

Just wanted to make sure BuckyNuke has the ability to make an informed choice

Mike

[BuckyNuke]

right now i just need to find something to get me some experience in the field.

the HR person i talked to told me that they just got some really good news pertaining to their relicensing in the past few days. granted, it was a HR person.

[ChiefRocscooter]

BuckyNuke,
How did tyou start with them?  Did you send them resume, headhunter, ect..
How long did they take to respond to your initial resume input?

I am just starting to put stuff out and wondered how it worked with them?

Thanks Rob

[Fermi2]

Just about every day the News section here usually has an article or two about Oyster Creek. Read some of the articles. The HR Person is feeding you a line of BS. Exelon is in a dog fight at Oyster Creek and they know it.

Of course keep your options open but if the extent of your experience is your plant closing for good in the middle of your quals then it's not really experience at all. Unless you're addicted to the idea of living in a high price area while working at a plant with a shaky future I'd start checking out other nukes.

Mike

[RxW592638]

I'll be starting at TMI in mid-September.

I asked the questions in my interview that B'zilla referenced (license estension, power uprate, spent fuel storage, Rx head replacement etc...) and was completely satisfied with the response of the folks at TMI.

I'd like to agree and disagree with part of what Broadzilla has to say.

First of all, given the political climate of the northeastern United States I completely agree that Exleon is probably in a "dog fight" with respect to license extension at Oyster Creek. However, I went through the same thing at Vermont Yankee a couple of years ago with Entergy. And, Entergy won! In fact, at the time, Entergy had just acquired VY for approx 180 million dollars. The decommissioning fund was worth over 300 million dollars. Because Entergy has a division that performs decom of nuke sites, they could have easily paid themselves to decommission the plant and prospered greatly. However, the cost-benefit analysis showed there was more of an economic incentive to continue to operate the plant.

Given the increasing need for base load generation in the northeast, the acquistion by Exelon of Salem and Hope Creek and the reluctance on the part of citizens and politicians to construct any type of new generating station, I think Oyster Creek has a very good chance of continued operation. But, as we all know, if a decision is made to shutdown that plant it will be based on economics not politics. Exelon may in a fight, but I believe their in a fight to win based on the amount of money they've invested in the region. (Side note: I'm sure I sound like a company cheerleader and I'm not even on the payroll yet!)

Sorry for being so long winded with this post.

I welcome comments.

Regards,
Rex

[Fermi2]

I know you're excited about your job so I'll forgive your naivety. The circumstances are different between OC and VY. OC is a below average performer with known degradation of a principle safety barrier. It's also in a region where there is a LOT of money and political clout that is rapidly mustering to oppose OC. What exelon has spent is meaningless, HECK the NJ PUC has already told Exelon in the Salem hearings they could care less what Exelon has invested.

If you have any doubts what well funded intervenors can do when they put their mind AND money to it check your history and see what happened to Shoreham.

Mike

[Roll Tide]

Mike,
That was harsh.
True, but harsh!
Anyway, Oyster Creek specifics should be under talk about OC:


http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,984.25.html

In a broader response, I am happy that a few companies have bought additional Nukes; the disgruntled workers leaving there provide skilled replacements for the aging workforces elsewhere.   

[BuckyNuke]

Chief:

I sent my resume to a couple of places for AO/NLO jobs in the past 1-2 weeks, and I got immediate responses from Progress and Exelon. Seeing what the situation at OC is like now, and I'd probably rather live in South Carolina... I'm going to lean towards the job at the Robinson plant. However, I am from the midwest... and I'd probably would like to work my way back towards working in Illinois or back home in Wisconsin at some point in my life. Exelon obviously would be better for that.

[ChiefRocscooter]

Good to hear, please keep me informed of your progress and I will do like wise.

AS for the Midwest think you need to hook up with Trinian23 he works at plant central IL (right where you want, or close)Look at his posts to find info and drop him  a PM he seems like a guinely helpful fellow. 

Good luck

Rob

[ChiefRocscooter]

Mike,
...... the disgruntled workers leaving there provide skilled replacements for the aging workforces elsewhere.   

I would prefer you use the term seasoned!! vice aging!

ROB

[M1Ark]

Chief,

I was at INPO recently with an Operations Training Supervisor and he said Mcguire hires an NLO class every year and that they interview in January for a May start date.  I also met some contacts from Catawba ( a couple of Shift Supervisors) and they promise to get back to me with specifics.  I'll give you contact information as soon as I get to work.

[ChiefRocscooter]

Thanks for the info, I look fwd to "hearing" from you.  That is just what I was looking to find out!!!

Rob

[BuckyNuke]

i'm off for a testing/interview session with progress energy at robinson. hopefully tropical depression/storm/hurricane ernesto doesn't have other plans. I'm flying from Madison to Charlotte to Florence tomorrow, and i'm a little nervous.

[ChiefRocscooter]

Good luck and do not forget to come back and post some details to help us voyers out who hopeto be in your shoes soon!

Rob

[ChiefRocscooter]

I talked to a HR/ops person at a Duke plant recently and he basically told me they are looking to hire NLO's in next batch who do not want to be career NLO's.  They want guys who want to move up (which is good for me). He made point of menitioning that they wouild be building new plants and would be looking to man up to meet future needs.  So does anyone think they will be uping the numbers of RO/SRO they have so that in the future some can be shifted to new plants.  I quess those of you who have been around a "long" time can also talk about how the manning is implemented in new plants. 

[Fermi2]

LOL I doubt all that many of the very few Ops types here remember New Reactor Staffing!!! The closest I've been was my old plant was 5 years old when I started there.

Mike

[ChiefRocscooter]

So what is your best guess for how they would work it?

[BuckyNuke]

i just got an email from progress saying i passed my POSS test, so i'm hoping an offer is coming.

[Fermi2]

i just got an email from progress saying i passed my POSS test, so i'm hoping an offer is coming.

You mean an interview right?

[ChiefRocscooter]

No, I thionk he already interviewed with them.

Congrads, Did they tell you how you did and what do you thinnkhelped you with your preps?

Rob

[Roll Tide]

I talked to a HR/ops person at a Duke plant recently and he basically told me they are looking to hire NLO's in next batch who do not want to be career NLO's.  They want guys who want to move up (which is good for me). He made point of menitioning that they wouild be building new plants and would be looking to man up to meet future needs.  So does anyone think they will be uping the numbers of RO/SRO they have so that in the future some can be shifted to new plants.  I quess those of you who have been around a "long" time can also talk about how the manning is implemented in new plants. 

One method of staffing is to put a recruiting office in the town of a competing utility. At Sequoyah, they refer to it as, "When the bus to Palo Verde pulled out".

Another method is to increase RO/SRO beyond the current needs, and have them rotate until needed. CP&L once had 30% more licenses than slots on shift, junior RO's only got minimum hours on the board. I would guess that most of their extras are gone now, but it would be a goal to get a new plant ready.

TVA is manning up BFN1 (shutdown for 20 years) in a similar manner to a new start. Lots of trainees; they even built a 2nd simulator to handle all the training! 2 sister BWR units at the same site provide excellent experience.

Back in the day, people got a "cold license" (sometimes called a cert or certification) since they could not meet all requirements for a regular license (such as power changes). The NRC expected each unit to have a heavy sprinkling of previous "hot licenses" along with the cold license only operators. Which explains the bus......

[ChiefRocscooter]

Well hopefully they start pulling a bus up outside the Navy TAP program bulilding soon!!   Aslong as it is not a "short" bus I am ready to go!!

Rob!

[BuckyNuke]

i just got word that i won't be offered a position at robinson. there were 9 people at the testing/interview session that i went to... and who knows how many other sessions like that there were. everyone in the room was ex-navy, and over half of them had power industry experience.

i'm still waiting to hear from oyster creek. i interviewed for a reactor engineering position as well as a NLO position.

chief, could you tell me where these plants post their NLO class positions? i heard that vermont yankee is having a class this year as well. i just can't find any positions currently anywhere. i'm willing to relocate anywhere.

[ChiefRocscooter]

You can find them by looking at the company websites (listed as different possitions by different companies) use the map portion of this site to get an idea of who run the plant then target the company.

Rob

[ChiefRocscooter]

Oh yea look at Southern Nuclear they list some jobs for Nuclear Techs pay is low but I am told it can be an entry level for someone with no Exp (which is you right??)  What is your school background in??

[hamsamich]

try indian point, they will take anybody    actually, they kinda will......

[BuckyNuke]

B.S. Nuclear Engineering @ Wisconsin.... i'm having trouble hearing back from anyone.

[ChiefRocscooter]

How long have you been looking?  Your background is only college? I am not sure I can give you any advice more than keep plugging as I am in totally different background / sit as you but hopefully you keeping tabs on the different company sites. (You qualified for many position I will not be so maybe you could start with company and work into ops???)

Rob

[ChiefRocscooter]

You know Duke has lots of entry level Eng positions listed. Also I have noticed that this is a slow moving field (from personal observation) when it comes to hiring many people say they talk to companies then have lull of weeks while they wait for interviews.

Rob

[Fermi2]

Bucky,

If I may make a suggestion why not send a PM to NucEng for Hire. Mark took the advice of some industry SROs and used his own hard work to get a job as an Instant SRO at one of the Entergy Plants. He's a bright guy, asked good questions, would not take the easy answer if he felt he could get a better one and he might have a blue print for another Big 10er to use.

Mike

[BuckyNuke]

he hooked me up with a link to some entergy NLO online applications. I also figured out how to access the careers page at duke energy correctly... now it is apparent that they are hiring a ton of people. at first it seemed like they were only hiring for 3 positions, but that's for some company that they bought out.

i also hit up southern and NMC (close to home).

[BoilerHP]

I wanted to revive this thread cause it seems fitting of a place for my question...
I am start in-processing on Tuesday, but I was curious to get suggestions, tips, or advice on note taking/studying for operations. I am a college grad and I am sure this will require a slightly different approach to learn. What is the typical "class room" setting like? Is it common to use audio recording devices to record the instructors discussions? Do people just buy note pads, bring laptops (really don't see this one applying here), or just "shut up and listen"?

I would love any and all in put on how many of you got through operations training.

Thanks in advance!

[Fermi2]

How you did it in college won't work. Once systems starts the material comes at you too fast and is too complex. I've never taken a note in my life, nor do I mark up prints, I simply listen or just read on my own, to be honest usually my self study was about 2 weeks ahead of what was being taught in the classroom. Many utilities issue laptops so you won't need books, though many print out stuff to make it easier to follow.
I've seen lots of guys take their notes on the prints and schematics, it seems to work well for them.
Others highlight the texts. It all depends on what works for the person I guess.
Keep in mind most tests are 60% or so new material and 40% past material.
Regardless of the plant or requirements you best learn how to draw the systems from memory at least flow paths through major components.

Mike

[BoilerHP]

Thanks Mike,
Your input is certainly valued and taken to heart. I actually for the most part don't take notes, I found sitting and paying close attention I tend to retain more. This is why I asked about recording audio. It sounds like taking the time to learn how to draw out the systems is a great way to really master this difficult topic, I may have to give my good ol' dad a call about this sorta things since he has some experience on it. From what I gathered from earlier posts, they tend to give allocated study time? How often are there typically tests or quizzes on different material... or am I way off on how training is done? I haven't really been given any information on this aspect yet.

Thanks again.

[Nuclear Renaissance]

I wanted to revive this thread cause it seems fitting of a place for my question...
I am start in-processing on Tuesday, but I was curious to get suggestions, tips, or advice on note taking/studying for operations. I am a college grad and I am sure this will require a slightly different approach to learn. What is the typical "class room" setting like? Is it common to use audio recording devices to record the instructors discussions? Do people just buy note pads, bring laptops (really don't see this one applying here), or just "shut up and listen"?

I would love any and all in put on how many of you got through operations training.

Thanks in advance!

I have a background similar to yours, and am wrapping up plant systems training for my 3rd different plant (Westinghouse PWR - nonlicensed level; BWR/6, nonlicensed and licensed level; BWR/4 - licensed level). Here's what works for me (emphasis on "for me", as you'll need to find your own study niche):

This assumes you are provided with a laptop, as most plants are now doing, though there's no reason you can't do it with pad/pencil and a little more patience. Before the upcoming lecture, I take that topic's "system description" (the Training dept writeup on that topic, your plant may call it something else), and I create a bulleted outline in Word of the key points, including its bases, component details, instrumentation setpoints, and overall system operation characteristics. This usually ends up being a page or two for each system. Then, when the actual lecture takes place, it is real easy to augment/clarify/correct that outline file while the instructor talks and emphasizes what he/she chooses to emphasize. You can also copy the high-value graphics from what is usually an instructor's Powerpoint presentation, and paste them into your file. I keep hardcopy printouts of the most current revision for each of these files on hand in a small binder, and since they are condensed, it's real easy to get a good system review in 5 minute bites.
I also create "daily affirmation" sheets of the real heavy-hitter stuff, usually Excel tables of major-component power supplies, containment isolation setpoints, scram setpoints, etc. I look at these dailiy, as this is the stuff that you want to become second-nature.
If you don't try to condense the high volume of information you're about to get, you'll end up having to rely on what you heard in class, backed by hundreds - if not thousands - of Training dept-provided system writeup and procedure pages, which is almost too scatter-shot to be an efficient means of review.

[NukeNub]

I'll throw in my take on NLO training at an Exelon East Coast BWR.

You'll most likely only get paid for 40 hours. About 2-3 hours a day have built in study time/lunch.

I took a clue from the licensed class upstairs and came in on the weekends to study (pay or no pay, it worked in Orlando).

We received formal lectures for all systems, subsystems, etc. with built in objectives and references. We also had what were the "house notes" which were a combination simplified one-line with embedded notes (set points, alarms, automatic features, trips, interlocks, etc). We also had P and IDs which to me are more useful in the plant than they are in the classroom. IMHO, a P and ID can be too overwhelming when you are first familiarizing yourself with complex systems.

Most of the lectures came with power points.

I used the skills I honed in the Navy. I actively listened to the lecturers, highlighted information they repeated a few times, used mnemonics, and made prodigious use of dry-erase and white boards to write out objectives.

A lot of the guys quizzed each other. Use as many senses you can to learn stuff: read it, hear it, speak it, see it.

If you have your dosemitry, get with an NLO on rounds and walk systems down. Go see the stuff that is talked about in the lectures. Make it real.

Not sure how your training is broken down, but we did classroom for several weeks, broke for 5 weeks plant familiarization, and then came back for more classrooms. After formal classroom training we went to the plant with our qual books for OJT/TPE.

OJT: On the job training
TPE: Task Performance Evaluations

At the end of classroom training I had the highest average out of 20 (>97%). I am pretty sure I was not the smartest, but hand's down I was the most motivated and in my experience, motivation and enthusiasm will get you far.

Good luck.

[Fermi2]

NukeNub makes a great point. There's nothing like system walkdowns. Now In a BWR some of the stuff is behind shielded walls but much of it is accessible. During my NLO Training at Fermi (A BWR 4) and my SRO Class at Sequoyah (PWR) I was a fanatic about walking down systems. I'd start at the source, draw a rough sketch as I walked it down then compare it with prints. Now being ex Navy I had a advantage as I knew where systems began and ended, for example, all power plants have condensers, find the condenser you can find the rest of virtually everything in the BOP/Secondary. Usually after class I'd spend a couple hours a day tracing systems, then about 6 to 8 hours on the weekend. The weekend time was at Sequoyah because I didn't grow up there, I felt I needed the extra time plus I wanted to show respect to the people who had grown up there by learning the plant from the ground up. I think I spend about 400 to 500 hours of my own time walking down systems, plus during systems we had 4 hours on Friday of self study which I used to walk down systems. During my later walkdowns I walked down major procedures that NLOs would perform. (I did this during my NLO training at Fermi2) Some say this is overkill but when it comes to learning the plant I'm very Old School and it's worked.
Sequoyah gives tests every two weeks, plus a comp at the end of each phase.

Mike

[BoilerHP]

Thanks for all the wealth of information. I certainly hope more people take those last few posts into consideration as they start the same process as me. So it sounds like the technology in training is a little more up to date then I was giving it credit, I should adapt well with this aspect and there were certainly some overlapping between the replies.

1) Review and study material ahead of time
2) Create outlines of said material ^
3) Pay close attention to lectures and add key fundamentals and points to prepared notes
4) Constantly re-review notes created above, and notes supplied from the training department.
5) Test individually and in a group settings on a regular basis (couple times a week?)
6) Frequent walkdowns with OPS personell (preferably weekly)

Thanks again everyone.

[Nuclear Renaissance]

At least initially, the time you spend in the plant is going to feel like it has limited effectiveness, just because it will just be a lot of pieces-parts to you. At some point in your plant systems training, though, you may start to understand the plant as an intergated machine, and things you see out there will start to make more sense, and the value will be much more of an impact. When you eventually get out of the classroom and into your On the Job Training, knowing where things are is often half the battle.

[Fermi2]

I wouldn't count on Ops Guys being available to walk down anything, they're usually pretty busy and when they're not the last thing they'll want to do is walk something down with a NUB. If you can't find something then ask where it is. Also do NOT pick up any dose during a walkdown.

Sometime during your systems training, usually about week 8 or so there's a sudden realization about how everything integrates. After that it's pretty easy. Also what you have to know as an NLO is different than as an RO. NLO is mostly facts, RO is more integration and how does the system work when something is broken.
Don't think too hard on this stuff. Usually your first inclination is the right one.

Mike

[BoilerHP]

Mike,
As a health physicist and working in RP... I am all to familiar with dose. I did lots of walkthroughs in the plant when I was in RP and I know where there are higher dose level areas (I also check the dose surveys before entering the RCA...) I know how much those RP guys work on doses... I would hate to be the guy that blows their goal over a few mRem for no reason.

Thanks for the heads up about week 8, I look forward to that experience

[BoilerHP]

All,
I was wondering if it is "common" for NEO trainees to be released during the 6 month probation period? What is the typical retention rate of an NEO class? I ask since I have a short term lease until early may, and trying to determine what to do with housing for the future.

Thanks in advance

[NukeNub]

I think you will be ok. Out of 20, we have lost 2 so far in the past year. 1 was a nuke eng who went to be a nuke eng and one failed out on medical.

Right now 1 is in a sort of academic probation because of he can't seem to pass his watch evaluations or JPMs (job performance measures).  I think he has one more chance to pass.

Like I stated earlier, if you give it an enthused effort, you're safe.

[BoilerHP]

Thanks,
I had the impression that was the case, but still... I guess I can go forward into the process of house buying (I couldn't decide what type of smiley to insert here)

Thanks NukeNub... like the name for the record

[BoilerHP]

So I am all ready done with in-processing but I can't be badged until I have my clinical on Thursday with a Psychologist since I will be in "critical" areas. I arranged to get some studying material to go over tomorrow since I have nothing else to do, overall a great day and enjoyed all the "flack" I got for being non-navy and a Boilermaker in Illini country... from what I can tell I may be the only in that position in the class but its going to be a blast!

Thanks again everyone, and for the record we will not be getting laptops. That is something they are hoping to get EOs in the next few years.

[davesally]

Just wondering, it was said that one person failed the medical or background. How hard can it be to pass these items.

[Nuclear NASCAR]

It's not that difficult to pass.  The key is total TRUTHFUL disclosure, as has been said many times before.  I have seen someone lose their job after a few weeks employment when it was discovered that they had fudged on their college education record.  They had claimed a degree that they didn't quite have yet.  Had they just stated what they had completed so far they would still be here working.

This may not be the case but it is a scenario.

[davesally]

I have a green card is that going to be a problem with background or security clearance. I don't have any convictions and amin good shape.

[DSO]

Anyone have any knowledge of training period--overtime after qualified--and/or pay progressions at SONGS for NLO's?

[dirac]

Anyone have any knowledge of training period--overtime after qualified--and/or pay progressions at SONGS for NLO's?

Initial training is about 6-9 months. Secondary and GFES. Then on shift for about a year and then primary training for about 4 months. I think NLOs start at 28/hr and progress towards 35. Overtime is decent but due to the new NRC work hour rules you can only get about 4 overtime shifts every 5 weeks.

[Smooth Operator]

A quick shout out to all my fellow new Limerick NLO's that qualified on time and thanks to all the Operators and Trainers that supported us.

Now bring on the OT.

[BoilerHP]

Only for a little while until the NRC hour regulations kick in... in the meantime enjoy!

[Fermi2]

The NRC Regulations won't end OT. They'll only require one to document it for approval after lower hours.

Mike

[dirac]

The NRC Regulations won't end OT. They'll only require one to document it for approval after lower hours.

Mike

True, but having to justify the OT to the NRC sure puts a lot of pressure to avoid having to do it in the first place. Thats been my impression at least.

[Fermi2]

True, but having to justify the OT to the NRC sure puts a lot of pressure to avoid having to do it in the first place. Thats been my impression at least.

BS you don't have to justify anything. It's no different than it is today. You write the exemption, your PM gives approval and it's audited., this just makes you write up the forms with fewer hours.

Mike

[jams723]

I have to agree with Brodzilla, research the plant and the area!  Make sure your family can live in the area.