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Fermi2

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #75 on: Feb 28, 2007, 12:55 »
Easier to Maneuver, also post Shutdown, Shutdown margin is never a problem.

Mike

wlrun3@aol.com

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #76 on: Feb 28, 2007, 04:30 »
Easier to Maneuver, also post Shutdown, Shutdown margin is never a problem.

Mike

   ...in response to the mentioned member of the public, would "easier to operate" be equivalent to "easier to maneuver"...




   

Fermi2

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #77 on: Feb 28, 2007, 04:43 »
No

M1Ark

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #78 on: Feb 28, 2007, 11:23 »
GE made the BWR easier to maneuver by making it an extremely complex machine.  They can shed 30% Reactor Power in seconds.  Translation= things happen really fast which does not = easier.   

Fermi2

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #79 on: Mar 01, 2007, 02:13 »
I'm not sure about CE Reactors but a Westinghouse 4 Loop Reactor can shed about 30% load extremely fast during a runback, BUT so much active stuff happens you really have to be on your toes, Rods insert, Steam Dumps Open, Spray Valves open, the turbine sheds load and in many cases you end up Emergency Borating. The two Runbacks I had at Fermi and the time the HTR Drain Pump tripped the plant ran back, stabilized and that was that.

On the OTHER hand, The ECCS was complicated as heck and was required in about every mode. One thing I like about PWR Tech Specs, once the plant is cold about all your major Tech Specs are non applicable.

Mike

Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #80 on: Mar 01, 2007, 06:56 »
The ECCS was complicated as heck and was required in about every mode. One thing I like about PWR Tech Specs, once the plant is cold about all your major Tech Specs are non applicable.

That is because Boiling is good. And you can't trust gravity. (And M1 didn't think I could figure out BWRs!)  ::)
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M1Ark

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #81 on: Mar 01, 2007, 09:17 »
That is because Boiling is good. And you can't trust gravity. (And M1 didn't think I could figure out BWRs!)  ::)

LOL...  Roll Tide you could absolutely figure out BWR's. I just wasn't good enough to really explain it to you.

Fermi2

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #82 on: Mar 02, 2007, 02:50 »
Boiling in some places in a PWR is a good thing, so long as it's on the correct side of the tubes!

Gravity might work in a PWR but at a BWR I never had to wok about rods moving on instrument failures, unless of course I had enough to cause a Reactor Trip (or SCRAM as they used on the other side of the force).

Also, BORON is a GOOD thing!! Well sort of!

One thing that was a real eye opener to me is having to know when the last time you placed a Charging pump in service was, or what the plant conditions were the last time you took a demin out of service as if you just swap equipment around without thinking these things through you might find you've changed power and caused a Reactivity Event.

I happen to like the change to learn a different technology and I like both Reactor Types. They each have their idiosnycrasies , good points and bad points. I know on both Reactors I've worked at I've said I wonder WHY the HECK they did it THAT way but that's the fun part.


Mike

rlbinc

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #83 on: Apr 18, 2007, 01:50 »


Also, BORON is a GOOD thing!! Well sort of!

One more "hole in the head ala Davis Besse" and we'll be posting on "exNukeworker.com"

LaFeet

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #84 on: Apr 20, 2007, 01:34 »
I can recall one design where we could say that there is no decay heat after 10 days of shutdown.... that made all the number crunchers go bezerk.

It seems the simplest designs are the safest.  Fewer bends, single or double pass, isolation valves and some sort of reliable emergency cooling.  I dont know.... aren't we just boiling water???   And why all the tritium scare...heck... it's just tritium.  Think I'll have another beer. ???

Offline Marlin

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #85 on: Apr 20, 2007, 03:50 »
The Pebble Bed reactor made a big splash for a while and South Africa at one time intended to build one. Lately there has not been much noise about it, has it gone by the wayside?

rlbinc

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #86 on: Apr 20, 2007, 09:15 »
I heard that the PBMR needs magnetic bearings which have not been completely developed. The turbine runs at a few thousand degrees, so oil bearings won't work.

I think graphite can be trusted in a Helium environment. I like the continuous fuel feed and reload. I like the efficiency numbers.
I also think the small scale (110 Mwe)  is more suited to sparsely loaded African continent than here in the US. www.pbmr.co.za

deaztrailnutz

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2007, 04:31 »
The Pebble Bed reactor made a big splash for a while and South Africa at one time intended to build one. Lately there has not been much noise about it, has it gone by the wayside?
Does anyone know anything about the new General Atomics designs?  I know the last plant GA built in Colorado was a bust, but on paper their new designs look good http://gt-mhr.ga.com/.   


ALSO

I have a question for M1RK, Broadzilla and the other BWR gurus; what were the major design differences between the Allis-Chalmers & GE BWR?  Did the Allis-Chalmers design use a drywell & torus for primary containment too?

Fermi2

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2007, 05:15 »
Allis And Chambers used a dedicated steam drum. All the first generation BWRs used Smaller versions of PWR Containments. When GE started to build them bigger they had to go to the Pressure Suppression type containment otherwise the containment would have had to be 8 times larger than a similar PWR Containment. Given a PWR containment is about 2.5 to 3.0 Million Cubic feet...

The PWR world went with the large freestanding containments AND the infamous Ice Condenser. I'm STILL shaking my head on how they came up with that solution. I work at an Ice Condenser Plant.

Mike

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #89 on: May 05, 2007, 05:55 »
Mitsubishi new design is noteworthy. Comanche Peak is buying? 2 of them.
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Fermi2

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #90 on: May 05, 2007, 05:58 »
Mitsubishi new design is noteworthy. Comanche Peak is buying? 2 of them.

Maybe, the NRC hasn't certified the design yet and say it won't be for quite some time.

Mike

deaztrailnutz

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #91 on: May 05, 2007, 07:39 »
Allis And Chambers used a dedicated steam drum. All the first generation BWRs used Smaller versions of PWR Containments. When GE started to build them bigger they had to go to the Pressure Suppression type containment otherwise the containment would have had to be 8 times larger than a similar PWR Containment. Given a PWR containment is about 2.5 to 3.0 Million Cubic feet...

The PWR world went with the large freestanding containments AND the infamous Ice Condenser. I'm STILL shaking my head on how they came up with that solution. I work at an Ice Condenser Plant.

Mike
How does an ice condenser work?  I hear alot of bruh-ha-ha over them

Offline Marlin

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #92 on: May 06, 2007, 12:04 »
Containments have to contain a projected pressure surge from steam release in an accident this can be done through the volume of the containment. The volume can be reduced by operating in a subatmospheric pressure or by using a heat sink to condense the steam. The ice condensor is essentially a compartment isolated from the rest of the volume of the containment that is inside the pressure vessel with blowout panels to allow stem to enter the chamber full of crushed ice during an accident.

Fermi2

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #93 on: May 06, 2007, 07:59 »
If y'all want a slightly more detailed version I'd be happy to provide it without a huge amount of Technospeak. The one thing Marlin said, about it being crushed ice is true and makes sense but when I first saw it I was amazed. I initially thought Ice Condensers were huge blocks of ice.

Mike

deaztrailnutz

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #94 on: May 06, 2007, 10:52 »
How much ice is required for plants like McGuire or Cook?  How is the ice maintained & stored?

Offline Limited Quanity

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #95 on: May 07, 2007, 06:09 »
If y'all want a slightly more detailed version I'd be happy to provide it without a huge amount of Technospeak. The one thing Marlin said, about it being crushed ice is true and makes sense but when I first saw it I was amazed. I initially thought Ice Condensers were huge blocks of ice.

Mike

Hey ain't nothing like walking into a 15 deg F freezer, spending 15 min. (shiver)  :D walking on top of >2.4 million lbs of ice for a survey, checking doors, or AHU's, and then walking back into the real world at 90+ deg.  Takes a few minutes for your safety glasses to unfog, huh!  Gotta be careful!
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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #96 on: May 07, 2007, 07:05 »
How does an ice condenser work?  I hear alot of bruh-ha-ha over them

Wouldn't this be "off-topic" for "Best New Reactor Designs"? Not to be a stickler here, but ice condensers have less future than Edsels...
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Fermi2

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #97 on: May 07, 2007, 07:59 »
Wouldn't this be "off-topic" for "Best New Reactor Designs"? Not to be a stickler here, but ice condensers have less future than Edsels...


TECHNICALLY Ice Condensers have a brighter future at least near term than any new type of containment. I dare say the next nuke licensed in this country will be an Ice Condenser Plant. Just a hunch though.

Mike
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 08:00 by Broadzilla »

Offline RDTroja

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #98 on: May 07, 2007, 08:48 »
The PWR world went with the large freestanding containments AND the infamous Ice Condenser. I'm STILL shaking my head on how they came up with that solution.

According to the tales of yore (many moons ago...) the ice condenser plant was developed to reduce containment volume to enable the construction of Atlantic 1 & 2 which were designed to float... yes, I said float. They were envisioned to be able to respond to power shoratges up and down the Atlantic coast and 'plug in' to any city that needed the power. Gotta love the ideas that people came up with.
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Offline Roll Tide

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Re: Best New Reactor Design
« Reply #99 on: May 07, 2007, 09:29 »
yes, I said float. They were envisioned to be able to respond to power shoratges up and down the Atlantic coast and 'plug in' to any city that needed the power. Gotta love the ideas that people came up with.

Guess that explains the current emphasis on "fitness for duty". Definitely a smokey haze in that room...  ;D
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