Rent a tech Union debate

[jjordan]

Until organizers create their own site Nukeworker is the best Forum available. I suspect this will become a very long thread.

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As a general comment to all posters please keep it civil to prevent movement of this thread to PolySci as this is a topic of general interest.

Even when they do, nukeworker will still be the best, because it will be impatial. Both side have a right to their opinion, and the moderators will help to keep it civil. Thank You Marlin
JJ

[Brett LaVigne]

No thanks.  Never been a fan of union labor.  I am a free agant, I am free to accept the wages at a plant or move on to the next one.  I don't have to wait in line for a job like some of the other trades or be sent where they want me to go.

If you want to drive wages up at plants like SONGS where they don't pay nearly enough for the area, just don't go there.  Eventually when these plants don't staff they will have no choice but to become more competetive.

I stepped out of the nuclear business back in 1998 and re-entered in 2006.  I left making an average of $15/hour and $50/day and came back to $23 - $27/hour and $80 - $110/day.  I had a 4 year run as a production plant superintendent in Detroit, worked in sales for a couple of years and ran a small business in MI and AZ.  In the "Real" world you can expect somewhere around 3% as an average annual increase.  Most companies try to maintain this average.  That would have put us at around $19 and change/hour for the time that I took off.  I was quite suprised to see how much a Sr. HP made after only being gone for a few years.  The shorter outages mean that we have to move around a bit more to fill up the time but I find that the shorter outages have actually helped me plan my year.  There is far more work out there for a tech. that does a good job than there used to be.  There are also less of us, that doesn't hurt either.

I am from a strong union area (automotive).  I have seen them vote themselves right out of business.  More money...less work...take all of the power away from the business until they are forced to close or send work over seas. Or import workers that will do it for less (southwestern plants already doing it).

I am not saying that everything is perfect because it is not.  I am saying that there is currently a good living out there for those who want to work hard for it.  Stop going to the plants that don't pay fairly and continue to voice your opinions.  I don't think that unionized rad techs is the silver bullet.

I respect any opinions that differ from mine, I appreciate the opportunity to express my opinion on the matter in this forum.

BL

[justme]

Just a few points.  Many say they have what they need, but want more. A union won't necessarily give you more of want you want, may even dip into what you need.  My husbands union contract took away more than we had.  Now we pay quite a bit more for less benefits out of our own pockets.  True it isn't as much as payforyouown (which we did for many years).
Careful on what you want, you may get it and not like it.  As for me, I live within my means and like the freedom to choose.  If they freedom to choose was not taken away, I might reconsider.

[biloxoi blues]

I never stated I wanted a union.  I did state if I could get one thing out of a union if would be better bennies than what Im getting now.  Im pretty sure everyone wants more money and better bennies. If you werent referring to me "justme" then please disregard this post.  It is an advantage to know a union person real well to see the good and the bad of union and nonunion workers.  I always tell him "unions are here to protect the weak."  Jokingly of course.  Go Gators and Happy New Year

[Cathy]

If you want to drive wages up at plants like SONGS where they don't pay nearly enough for the area, just don't go there.  Eventually when these plants don't staff they will have no choice but to become more competetive.

I agree, whether we organize or not, a good start would be to quit going to plants that don't pay well. I have seen some impressive numbers coughed up when a plant can't staff. I have also seen some pretty unimpressive numbers and people still go anyway??
When we picked our outages last fall the question was..where is the cash? We picked the two highest paying plants that went together (at least until Wolf coughed up the extra dough, then they were the 2nd and 3rd). Last time I checked I worked to make MONEY and it makes sense not to work your can off for less cash.

[alphadude]

boycott of the plants sounds viable, however contractor companies can list you as being unavailable for work or mess with your unemployment. but a boycott sounds like a good action-first step to organized labor YIKES its a never ending circle.

[Shawnee Man]

Having a union does not guarantee job or bennies. I sat with my Dad in the early 70's, at the Phillips Stamping Plant (Bellaire, Ohio), on the picket line. It got to a point where the company shutdown the plant for 10 years to break the union and the workers.

On the other hand, when a non union worker retires, his or her benefits change with the wind of decision from upper management. I am a firm believer in the Health Savings Account system for health care and a roll over 401k. My plan goes with me no matter where I work.

Whether you are union or non union, keep in mind, nothing is quaranteed!

[SloGlo]

If you want to drive wages up at plants like SONGS where they don't pay nearly enough for the area, just don't go there.  Eventually when these plants don't staff they will have no choice but to become more competetive.

jist fer grins, what's songs paying these daze?  how's it compare to the rcol there?

[jjordan]

Oh so many posts! I'll try to work down the list. Bat Man, without a union a boycott would be a possibility. Would you trust all of your fellow techs to boycott a specific plant on their word? I think you would find that even though it was agreed to in advance, most plants would get enough techs to get by with. A lot of locals would work no matter what. The utilities would be able to work around a non union organized boycott. Hell they probably will survive a union organized boycott. They have very deep pockets, and some will spend whatever it takes to keep a union out. Somewhere around 80% already have union contracts, and a little over 60% are IBEW. Most nuclear workers would have a tough time in the real world, since some of the skills in a nuclear plant would be on the lower income bracket in non nuke, say decon/houskeeping. A lot of us actually like what we do, and really don't want to venture out there. It's a cruel hard world. The reason your wages increased so much over the time you sat out is twofold. #1 you were grossley underpaid to start out with. #2 The law of supply and demand. A lot of good techs with other marketable skills left, just like you, and they aren't comming back because they got tired of trying to raise a family on 6 months of work/ year. They also may have gotten tired of a lot of lies and broken promises. "Oh we recalculated your time and can't pay you the top rate like we said, you're 2 months short." "If you call and cancel your next job, we promise we'll keep you here for at least a week or two, until we get up and running." "If you go to this outge for me, I'll see that you get into the next one you really want." I agree you can't ask for more than the market will bear. How about some of the CEO's and VP's give a few million back, and distribute it to all of the worker bees? As far as closing down and moving, I don't think so. It's a pubic utility, they have obligations and protection. If they could ship it in from overseas, they would have started back in the 80's. Foreign workers for less? Read Eric's post, We are brining in 8 techs from Mexico so far. Guess what? 6 are returnees, and they weren't here last outage. That was the Swedish outage.They've been here for years already, and they get paid the same rate that you do. Press 1 for Engish! All of the foreign techs do a good job for us, and I'm pretty sure Bartlett has been getting work abroad for you. So maybe we're close to even on that. I understand you opinions and concerns. Thank you. OK on to my buddy SGT. Interesting article. Which came first the illegal aliens, or the attempt to organize them? What does the word illeagle mean to you? To me it means they broke a law. Now we are going to reward them and let them stay. I didn't know who John Keeley was, so I had to do a search. I read an article that he wrote. He's an advisor to the Center for Immigration Studies. He doesn't have the soulutions. He makes money writing articles, and stirring s__t.Ask him how to fix it, and he can't. But he calls himself an advisor. (oxymoron) It's a good article anyways. The illegals aren't going anywhere. It's political suicide to try to run them off. Thats why the cancer grows. I don't think a lot of unions share the views of the AFL-CIO. The union I belong to, dissassociated themselves from them, as did several more. But hey, if they're, here and are going to work. Why not train them, and then get them liveable wages. If they're not working for low wages, the companies will be less likely to hire them to replace you! Thats a little bit of what Keeley's article was about. The illegals tend to be way low on the socioeconomical ladder, and so are their 2nd and 3rd generations. We need to break the chain, and help train and educate. Unions do this for their members. I understand why they came here. some of the same reasons my ancestors did. I just don't like the fact that our government let it get out of control. Like I said it's a mess, and I don't think anyone will try to fix it! :' justme and biloxi, one thing a national union can and will do, would be to assist with health care. If everyone is paying into the same fund, it will provide economy of numbers. Maybe they can line up several naitionwide providers so that you can use it anywhere. Cathy it looks to me that the wage increases have stopped for the time being, but it's early in the season, and we will see when someone can't staff. Supposedly we are staffed, but they are just now starting,. I'm betting there will be a few cancellations. Alphadude, when I was a contractor, I lived in PA, and according to state law, I didn't have to travel to seek employment. If there was none available in my area, nobdy could force me to travel. Now if you have a nuke in your backyard like I did, and there was an outage. You were expected to work. I decided that a lot of plants were better for me than the home one, so I went there, but nobody forced me,. It was my choice. Do you think you would ever work for Bartlett again, if Eric called your UC office and messed with your claim? (he'd never ever do that! Eric's the man!) shawneeman: When you retire, you still belong to the union, and when they bargain for a new contract, they always look out for the retirees also. If you aren't in a union, and you get a little company pension. Do they have to give you cost of living increases? I don't think so. Some do but there is nothing to force them to, only their conciense, and I wouldn't bank on that!
Whew! Thanks,
JJ (

[Brett LaVigne]

Oh so many posts! I'll try to work down the list. Bat Man, without a union a boycott would be a possibility. Would you trust all of your fellow techs to boycott a specific plant on their word? I think you would find that even though it was agreed to in advance, most plants would get enough techs to get by with. A lot of locals would work no matter what. The utilities would be able to work around a non union organized boycott. Hell they probably will survive a union organized boycott. They have very deep pockets, and some will spend whatever it takes to keep out a union. ETC. ETC. ETC. JJ (

All good points JJ.  You are correct that we were underpaid in the 90's for sure.  I will never disagree with you that there is no reason in the world that we rent a techs shouldn't get the same wages as the house tech sitting right next to us on the refuel floor or generator platform, but I also recognize that it is their plant, not ours and it is maybe a little unrealitic to expect that.  I witnessed the influx of Mexican HP's at SONGS this past fall.  Some I would really question if they were real HP's at all in Mexico or just a firewatch.  There were a couple that I liked working with very much and were very good at the job.  They were doing it for less...that I have a big problem with.

I would not trust that any of my peers would join in a boycott.  The hard fact is that most of us have families, bills etc. and only a few weeks a year to make the money.  That along with the fact that one contract company has most of the work leaves us at the mercy of those people.
So what is the answer?  I don't know.  All I know is that I have enough experience with unions to never be convinced of their merit.

I am not pissed off enough about the money that I make to join a campaign like this.  I still feel that there are enough plants out there available to me that pay good and I can avoid the ones that don't.  This is also not completely fair of me to say because I have a different situation than some others.  I don't want to work all year, hell, I don't even want to work half the year.  My income is only half or less than half of the total houehold income and I chose to go back on the road to spend as much time as possible with my wife and daughter.  This job is perfect for that so I am happy.  If I am able to make a point from time to time and not go to a plant (even at the cost of unemployment) I will.  I think that the start we need is to get more techs to do the same but like you said, we can't count on it.

Now I am just starting to ramble...I don't have a good answer, just a lot of outloud thoughts.

Brett

[nukewood]

J.J.  I appreciate your concern and your input. I grew up in Vermont during the farm age and had no clue that a union was necessary. But then I took a non-unoin house tech job at Brunswick in the early 80's. My family was allowed 30 days motel and meals to relocate. We put in receipts for a reasonable beach house and groceries, instead of eating out. My CP+l Supervisor would not pay the bill because of the beach house. We would have saved  the company several hundred dollars over motels and restaurants. He had the power; I lost. I now enjoy any representation I can get. We are not always dealing with reasonable managers.

[alphadude]

As I said earlier Deja Vu this was all discussed about 2 years ago on here and nothing is new under the sun. Fact is  Rent A Techs will not organize (HP techs) there are too few to make a difference (3500 or so). Their politics generally tends to be conservative non-union. (there are exceptions)  Unions are only as strong as their members and their coffers. (large numbers and high dues) Unions do provide a somewhat equal playing field for the craft of concern. Union experiences do differ.  And when in doubt-go to college- get a degree- become professional- and chart your own destiny-

[Marlin]

Fact is  Rent A Techs will not organize (HP techs) there are too few to make a difference (3500 or so).

I think 3500 is low. OCAW estimated 750 in "79" then the IBEW I believe estimated 3000 in their effort. 6000 plus may be a better number at this time maybe up to 10,000 if you include all sources. I think this was a subject of earlier posts.

[alphadude]

the 3500 number is readily available personnel. (its more like 3200 something) that value maxed out around 5500 in the early 90s and has declined since due to age and people changing jobs to other positions. Its not as many as you think. Remember RCTs are not the same as ANSI. If you counted RCTs then the numbers may be higher. Adding in deconners, and jrs would also raise the value. 3500 is for full 3.1/18.1 ANSI techs only.

[Marlin]

Sounds plausible whats the source?

[Rennhack]

I'm told that 'HP techs that rove from outage to outage' is <800.  There are 1685 HP/RP/RCT resumes in our database.

[Eric_Bartlett]

...I witnessed the influx of Mexican HP's at SONGS this past fall...They were doing it for less...that I have a big problem with...

Well ya baited me in again - once again I have no comments on this whole union vs. non union debate other than what I stated before – I feel that I do have to weigh in from time to time to clarify certain statements such as the one above made by Bat Man.   To say that the Mexican Technicians are "doing it for less" is an erroneous statement.  The billing rate for a foreign national is the same for a US citizen.  So the client, in this case SONGS, is still pay'n out the same amount regardless of who is doing the work.  You also have to look at the country that these techs come from, be it Mexico, Sweden, Slovenia etc... Mexico and Sweden happen to have socialized medicine, meaning that the vendor companies and technicians alike have to pay a hell of a lot more into their health care system than we do.  Any further discrepancies in what the techs make is attributed to international travel, paperwork fees (visa's, permits, etc...), other socialized benefits, and various other miscellaneous expenses that come out of what their parent company bills.  So I guess what I’m trying to say is that yes they may not bring home the same amount as the US citizen standing next to them, but they get it in other ways that we as Americans don’t.  Anyways, I’ve probably confused the situation more than I’ve clarified it.   

Eric Bartlett

BTW - back in 1990 the IBEW classified Decon techs as UN-SKILLED labor, thus not covered by the union - but they still wanted those dues...go figure.  Good luck JJ.

[wlrun3@aol.com]

   ...3500 is for full 3.1/18.1 ANSI techs only.

   ...is that contract techs only...

[wlrun3@aol.com]

I'm told that 'HP techs that rove from outage to outage' is <800.  There are 1685 HP/RP/RCT resumes in our database.

   ...yes...help me understand this...

   ...30 outages/season...40 sr rp's/outage...1200 outage working contract sr rp's...plus or minus 20%...am i right...

[Brett LaVigne]

"To say that the Mexican Technicians are "doing it for less" is an erroneous statement.  The billing rate for a foreign national is the same for a US citizen.  So the client, in this case SONGS, is still pay'n out the same amount regardless of who is doing the work.  You also have to look at the country that these techs come from, be it Mexico, Sweden, Slovenia etc... Mexico and Sweden happen to have socialized medicine, meaning that the vendor companies and technicians alike have to pay a hell of a lot more into their health care system than we do.  Any further discrepancies in what the techs make is attributed to international travel, paperwork fees (visa's, permits, etc...), other socialized benefits, and various other miscellaneous expenses that come out of what their parent company bills.  So I guess what I’m trying to say is that yes they may not bring home the same amount as the US citizen standing next to them, but they get it in other ways that we as Americans don’t.  Anyways, I’ve probably confused the situation more than I’ve clarified it. "  

Thanks for the clarification Eric, understand that this information comes from some of the foriegn techs themselves.  Obviously fragmented information, maybe trying to create some controversy like this, who knows?  Guess I took the bait

[alphadude]

nope thats all techs (based upon INPO surveys)  If i remember correctly the constant demand number is around 3100 or so- meaning to run nuclear power in the US you need that many techs- that would give you about 20 techs per unit with the remainder floating around elsewhere. In the late 80s early 90s when the amount of techs was about 2 times the constant demand number (around 6000 techs were out there and we only needed 3100-) we advised tech schools to "cut back" and we in the utilities began to get lower costs for techs too. (glut in the industry-thank You Jesus for Superfund and cleanup) Those were some lean times for HPs- hmm that sorta is when Unions became popular - think there is a connection???

So do you all think we are keeping the supply constant to fill the void left by those that are leaving, or dropping over from old age or moving on? Most of us in the business dont think so. I think within the next few years it will be critical-

To have a strong union base- demand must be increasing (which it is) and supply of technicians must also be increasing (which it isnt) when both of these factors are positive- this is fruitfull ground for a union.

[wlrun3@aol.com]

   ...so, in conclusion, there are roughly one thousand contract commercial power outage rp technicians...

 

[SloGlo]

so there aren't hardly any techs in da biz, yet the wages ain't moving.  whatever happened to supply 'n demand?  all da "bad" plants, what percentage did they raise the rates to to complete the staffing?  did the next outage start at the finish wage of previous staff or did they revert to the low number 'n go up from there?  since da number is so low, why can't sitting out fer a cupla weeks drive wages quickly, since outages are only a cupla weeks long?  iffen  der's only 800 techs,  woodent a good email campaign drive wages mucho pronto? 

btw, re: "Remember RCTs are not the same as ANSI."  ansi is simply time spent, rct is qualed by testing.   

[Walt Harris]

Would you trust all of your fellow techs to boycott a specific plant on their word? I think you would find that even though it was agreed to in advance, most plants would get enough techs to get by with. A lot of locals would work no matter what. The utilities would be able to work around a non union organized boycott. Hell they probably will survive a union organized boycott.

Exactly why it didn't work in 90. So why will it work today?? Stuck my neck out then, watched a LOT of BIG talkers drive by the line every morning at VCS! Think I would do it again?? Not!

Most nuclear workers would have a tough time in the real world, since some of the skills in a nuclear plant would be on the lower income bracket in non nuke, say decon/houskeeping.

Which is another reason the plants don't have to pay, it's not all rocket science!!! Thought Fitz was crazy for hiring folks off the street to release items from the controlled area (notebooks, handtools etc.), truth is, they probably did a better, more thorough job than I would have done sitting there all day!

The reason your wages increased so much over the time you sat out is twofold. #1 you were grossley underpaid to start out with. #2 The law of supply and demand.

#2 pretty much says it all, huh? If you tell me, as a utility, you would generously pay MORE than you had to, to get a qualified person, you are fooling yourself, not me. 

How about some of the CEO's and VP's give a few million back, and distribute it to all of the worker bees?

Yeah, RIGHT! Come on JJ! Wake-up and smell the resin!

justme and biloxi, one thing a national union can and will do, would be to assist with health care. If everyone is paying into the same fund, it will provide economy of numbers. Maybe they can line up several naitionwide providers so that you can use it anywhere.

Maybe the CEO's will give back some of those $$$$$$'s too!

Not meaning to slam you sir, but after living through the last fiasco, this is still a real sore spot. I can say that it did wake me up a little. Started looking at everything, including my fellow technicians a little differently! Realized if you just follow the cow in front of you, you will end-up on someone's dinner table!

I've got my "cushy" house job. Good bennies, decent retirement (if I live long enough).

If I could start over with what I know today (starting to sound like the old coot that I am) I would have stuck a small piece away from every paycheck, and I would be retired today. Even in the old days when I was so drastically "underpaid", as you say, there is no excuse (other than my dumb self) that I am still working today. Can't blame Bartlett, Numanco, IRM, RAD, IBEW, etc.(told you I was old), or unions or non-union jobs.

If you want a better job and better pay, do something to separate yourself from the crowd. Whether it's more schooling, or just simply push for a job or position slightly off the same old path. (Industrial Hygiene has been berry, berry good to me!) Whatever comes of this, I truly hope it all works out for the best for those of you involved.

Walt

[Walt Harris]

jist two stik my neck out here, but iffen everybuddy that thought a union didn't have a chance wood git outa da conversation, maybe the ones who wood like to see a union move on the issue wood git a chance at that without having to deal with alla negativity. 

Uh, the Topic says this is a debate. That usually means the possibility of more than one viewpoint! Maybe someone should start a topic for "Pro-Union Discussion Only - Please"!

re: 1990.... lots has changed, lots has been learned.  yinz gonna live ina past or be in the now working for da future? 

I think someone once said something to the effect that "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it"!

1990 was also da heyday of ffd purgement.   obviously ya moved on from that, has yer pay?

Uh, yes.

re: alla da fine points of contractual work.... ain't this a tiny bit anal, considering there ain't no contract, proposed or in effect?  yer beating a horse that ain't born yet.

Now, I can agree 100% here.

Walt