Rent a tech Union debate

[duke99301]

Just do it stand as one!
you can always put up a picket to let them know why you are there.

[thenukeman]

Is there a Vice presidency left for the NPUA Union.  I want in on some of these dues, and if the pay is high enough I may even change political party!!! 

[duke99301]

Why should you get the same as a house tech ?
 I assume then the diem would go away ?
you have to look at the package they have for what they do plus the training they have.
How many of RPTS  have any thing close to what some house techs have in training? How do you get the training? Who decides where you go and how long you been in the field? when do you make SR.HP.?
what would a Jr Make as will a  decon person?
some times you guys do not see the trees from the Forrest.
Who will be on the board for you and how do you get any type of Benny's?
base pay and how do you move up in scale?
how do's one who just come out of the Navy get the same pay as a RPT who has worked many outages ?
or some one who has been out for a while come back in ?
would they get the same scale/

[UncaBuffalo]

Why should you get the same as a house tech ?
 I assume then the diem would go away ?
you have to look at the package they have for what they do plus the training they have.

Pay is Pay...we should get whatever we are qualified for...which may be more or less than a house person.   The senior house techs are usually made 'up-grades' or 'lead techs', so they are rewarded for any extra qualifications they may bring to a specific job.

Per Diem is to cover the extra expense of living away from home...it is not part of some 'Pay-Package'.

[DJ@Retired]

To all the Techs that where at Clinton. Then went to LaSalle or Quad. If you are a dues paying member of IBEW 51 and are working a Exelon Site. I feel you should be getting Union scale. You need to file a grievance against Bartlett. Write Johnny Johnson @ JohnJ@40springnet1.com. Now that Exelon House techs come to Clinton and we have a travel agreement with the company. That should extend to any member of our union. This is just my opinion. But in the absent of Language in the contractor you would go to our house tech contrator then to past practices. That's how NLB does it. You have a good case here...

[Already Gone]

Pay is Pay...we should get whatever we are qualified for...which may be more or less than a house person.   The senior house techs are usually made 'up-grades' or 'lead techs', so they are rewarded for any extra qualifications they may bring to a specific job.

Per Diem is to cover the extra expense of living away from home...it is not part of some 'Pay-Package'.

Having been both a house tech and a roadie (both before and after) I would have to say that roadies deserve less money in most cases than the house RP's.
House RP's are trained in many more procedures than those that the roadies are required to know.  The job is far more involved than the fraction of it that contractors have to do.
The training that I had to take as a house RP was over SIX MONTHS long -- even though I had worked as a contractor Sr. RP at that site for the 18 months immediately prior to being hired.
When you get to a site, and complete the same training that the house RP's have passed, and take on the responsibility that they have, then you should get the same pay.  This happens sometimes.  There are contractors who are fully qualified at some sites.  They should get the same pay.  But, a roadie who hits and runs for a few weeks at a time, using only a tenth of the procedures, and having no stake in the utility's overall performance, is not doing the same job as a house tech.  So a comparison of pay is not appropriate.

To DJ, I respectfully disagree.  An IBEW member and employee of Bartlett, who is working under a contract signed by Bartlett and the IBEW, is entitled to whatever that contract specifies.  Those employees have no contract with Exelon.  Past practices and contracts only apply to the relationship between the employer and the employee.  If you think that the Bartlett employees should have a contract with Bartlett at other sites, then your house counterparts at LaSalle, Quad, etc. need to bargain for the same provisions that you have at Clinton.  As long as the contract between Exelon and IBEW at those sites allows non-union contract RP's, then Bartlett can hire non-union.  The only people who can change that are the IBEW members who are Exelon employees, by putting it into their next contract.  But, how far will they go to get that provision?  Will they strike for it?  Will the be willing to give up anything at all for it?  If not, it ain't gonna happen.
If you followed the rules of your own union, you would actually take action AGAINST the TECHS who work non union at other sites by taking away their membership (making it impossible for the to work at Clinton in the future), but doing so would make you the bad guy.  So, instead you are trying to make it look like they are entitled to something that is not in any contract.
Nice try, but it holds no water.  If you want something, you have to be willing to stand up and speak out for it (the other option is to sit down and shut up) but very few house techs are willing to do so for the contractors - brothers or not.  But, it is easy to say what you think ought to be, as long as you don't have to risk anything to make it that way.

[illegalsmile]

I haven't worked the Exelon West plants, but I have worked several sites (DoE and commercial) for Bartlett where we were "unionized." In every case, the contract was between Bartlett and the applicable union. As such, any claims, grievences etc we had were with Bartlett. It would be a rare case indeed where an employee of one company would be working under a contract that did not include that company and, it seems to me, it would open a very large can of very slippery worms re: co-employment.

[Already Gone]

We need to call a referee.  It is not possible for an employee of one company to be under contract to another employer.  I believe that you will find that the contract that exists between the techs and Barltett is the one that applies here.

The contract between Exelon and their employees specifies that contractors must hire IBEW members to work at the Clinton site.  This places the burden on Exelon to require that Bartlett hire IBEW members in order to be awarded their contract with Exelon.  Bartlett is not bound by any other contract between Exelon and the IBEW.  They are bound to provide to Exelon that which is specified in their contract with Exelon, and they are bound to the provisions of their contract with the IBEW.  If neither of those contracts requires them to hire IBEW members at other sites, or to pay a particular scale at other sites, then they do not have to do so and their employees are not entitled to any recourse against Bartlett for failing to honor a contract that does not exist.

[RDTroja]

I agree with Troy (imagine that!)... if there is someone doing wrong here, it is the techs who are 'dues paying members' (once they leave Clinton, they are not) and working outside the union to fill non-union contractor slots.

Please do not interpret my opinion as thinking someone is doing anything wrong. I was in the same position once... I left Clinton to go to another Exelon plant and my union affiliation ended. As a matter of fact, I also worked at an Exelon plant prior to going to Clinton, so it was non-union at La Salle, union at Clinton, and non-union at Limerick... all for different pay rates once the bonus money came into play. All of it was my choice and I did not feel ill-used at any time. I would do it again if it met my needs at the time.

[shovelheadred]

...I agree with Beercourt also...as we both work with union labor, they sign in with a package, this package includes, their base pay, their double time for Sunday and overtime for Saturday, whether or not they work 40 hours,,it has insurance, and yes some have per diem also..and annuities..not all locals are the same..I just worked a job in Arizona where there were 2 scales,,one California, one Arizona, usually the prevailing scale is the scale of the local that presides over where the work is, but the rest of the package is what is included in the local that the employee holds a card for, excluding the annuity,,,and travelers,,whether they are apprentices or Journeymen get journeyman wages..that would mean a junior HP, should get Senior wages , because he or she is a traveler, even though qualification is not there..this has happened on all Union jobs I have worked on..we had a 19 year old female apprentice working out of her local in Minnesota making $36/hour with 6 months experience..not all locals allow apprentices to travel...so if we are being politically correct here traveling juniors should make union scale..and per diem if it is included in the package...that's the facts..argue or not..I know Beercourt has been on the same kind of jobs as I have, as we work  with the same people. so there are allot of unanswered questions concerning per-diem, Jr verse senior pay..double time..double time for holidays also...again these are my experiences with union labor..and I agree with a union if it is run correctly..I work with Millwrights, don't be 99.9% or 100.01% with them, it better be 100.000% or they will find it in the bylaws and have the B.A at site, right now..it happened in Arizona..and it has happened elsewhere...before I would enter into an agreement with any local union, I would want to know who is running the show, what are their qualifications, are they interested in my and my family's well being...because a union, "is a brotherhood", and a strong union brother or sister will stick with you till the end...and if you get put in jail won't be there to bail you out, you will have to call the B.A., because that union brother will be sittin there beside you,,sayin" man, that was fun"....red

[DJ@Retired]

We need to call a referee.  It is not possible for an employee of one company to be under contract to another employer.  I believe that you will find that the contract that exists between the techs and Bartlett is the one that applies here.

The contract between Exelon and their employees specifies that contractors must hire IBEW members to work at the Clinton site.  This places the burden on Exelon to require that Bartlett hire IBEW members in order to be awarded their contract with Exelon.  Bartlett is not bound by any other contract between Exelon and the IBEW.  They are bound to provide to Exelon that which is specified in their contract with Exelon, and they are bound to the provisions of their contract with the IBEW.  If neither of those contracts requires them to hire IBEW members at other sites, or to pay a particular scale at other sites, then they do not have to do so and their employees are not entitled to any recourse against Bartlett for failing to honor a contract that does not exist.

Beercourt, I disagree. Bartlett signed a deal with the union which extends to its members, If there still dues paying members they should honor that agreement no matter where they go. We get fitters from Tn,Al Ar, and IL. There paid union scale. As for the contract between Exelon and their employees specifies that contractors must hire IBEW members to work at the Clinton site. We made that deal as Illinois Power not Exelon. So it simple. Know that Exelon honors the agreement at are site that agreement extends to all Exelon sites. Well maybe its not simple but it sounds good. This could work as a start of a contractor's union. But its up to you guys. For all of you who are in IBEW 51, You can start unit 15. I can't do it for you. All the best to you all anyway it goes. DJ

[UncaBuffalo]

Having been both a house tech and a roadie (both before and after) I would have to say that roadies deserve less money in most cases than the house RP's.
House RP's are trained in many more procedures than those that the roadies are required to know.  The job is far more involved than the fraction of it that contractors have to do.
The training that I had to take as a house RP was over SIX MONTHS long -- even though I had worked as a contractor Sr. RP at that site for the 18 months immediately prior to being hired.
When you get to a site, and complete the same training that the house RP's have passed, and take on the responsibility that they have, then you should get the same pay.  This happens sometimes.  There are contractors who are fully qualified at some sites.  They should get the same pay.  But, a roadie who hits and runs for a few weeks at a time, using only a tenth of the procedures, and having no stake in the utility's overall performance, is not doing the same job as a house tech.  So a comparison of pay is not appropriate.

Yes, house techs probably have lots of quals (site-specific, operating plant, etc.) that they should be paid more for...when they are using them.  So pay them more non-outage.

I, and most rent-a-techs, have a level of experience dealing with specific outage areas (refuel floor, S/G's, etc) that most house techs will never have the chance to acquire.  So pay us more when we are carrying them during an outage. 

How would that be? 

[biloxoi blues]

Have to agree with Unca during a recent S/G replacement no house techs inside containment for the entire outage.  Actually the contractors covered the aux. building and yard until layoffs.  So where did all the qualified techs work during the 90 days?  The running unit, count room and keeping the contractors supplied with working meters. (and of course at training to keep their quals up)  The  house techs were very knowledgeable and for the most part hard working when asked, but they weren't require til  the contractors left.  Now there are plants where the housetechs are bumping elbows with the contractors and getting things done, but for the most part during the outages when the contractors are present we are the ones that are doing the work while the house techs are sitting back and "critiquing" are work.  So I really do believe the contractors should get the same wages as house techs.  Have you ever seen all the housetechs in containment during an outage while the contractors run the rest of the plant?

[Already Gone]

Don't EVEN get me started again about some of those house techs at a certain place in PA that is named for the tree-gnawing rodent.  They couldn't FIND containment.  I sent one to wait for me in the corner.  He is STILL circling the building looking for it.

Unc, you are an example of why I hated to be a roadie.  Yeah, you and I could handle S/G's and Refuel, and pulling apart RCP's but we got the same $22.50 an hour that the BOP Senior tech got for punching tickets at the counter.

SOME contractors are just plain worth more than others, even more than some house people.  The problem is that there is no way of recognizing that on the paycheck under the current system


DJ, I love the sentiment, but get real.  The Bartlett RP's who worked at Clinton are not (and probably do not consider themselves) full-fledged members of Local 51.  If you really think that any one of them would have paid a dime in dues if it weren't necessary to work that outage, you are fooling yourself.

There is Union membership, and there is paying off the mob.  Even those union millwrights that Red talks about will tell the same.  Travellers, union members too, have to fork over some cash to the local that they will never see again.  It is simple, you wanna work here - you pay the man the two dollars.  That is all.  Now, if you are willing to let them in on your annuity, funded pension, healthcare plan, sick and welfare fund, legal defense fund, strike fund, ...etc. the story changes a little.  But, for now, those people are just paying LU51 to let them work one outage without any hassle - PERIOD.

BTW, Illinois Power - and for that matter Amergen, don't exist any more.  So look for the next contract to be quite different from what you are used to.  It is far more likely that the Clinton employees will get the same deal that the other Exelon employees have, rather than them adopting the contract that you have.  Face it, you are outnumbered.

I'll bet you a nickel that two outages from now, contract RP's at Clinton will not be IBEW members.  Unless you and the members of your local are going to be willing to stick your necks out for them.  But, the nickel is still in play.  I don't think you will, or that it would matter if you did.  Like it or not, Exelon is coming to town.

[Marlin]

I have to agree with BC on IBEW 51. I was an RPSS at Clinton in the mid 80's. Contractors did get union scale in return for paying dues but I did not see any union support beyond that for contractors. Even the inhouse techs had some issues with the local, one tech while I was there was suspended for a week by the union because of a misunderstanding in dues and the schedule. The union did not give him a warning and was not willing to budge. On the other hand when I worked in Outage management after that my experience with the local craft was different, the union was cooperative and made staffing for outage and modification work much easier. We were able to use the union training to satisfy on site requirements and those craft who maintained their training and had site specific training were permitted to move to the head of the line for work. It's been a few years since I've been there so my perspective is obviously dated. A union is only as good as the participation of its members.

[Brett LaVigne]

Yes, house techs probably have lots of quals (site-specific, operating plant, etc.) that they should be paid more for...when they are using them.  So pay them more non-outage.

I, and most rent-a-techs, have a level of experience dealing with specific outage areas (refuel floor, S/G's, etc) that most house techs will never have the chance to acquire.  So pay us more when we are carrying them during an outage. 

How would that be? 

I am thinking that most of us would be happy to be within' 15% total compensation when compared to our house tech. buddies. Even if we were paid as contractors dollar for dollar what the house folks make on an hourly basis, consider the 25%+ addition for bene's.

I also think that there is a valid arguement for the inconvenience of being a rent a tech. We travel away from home for months at a time during the year, many of us leaving our wives and children at home hundreds of miles away. If you really think that it can be argued that house techs are deserving of 25 - 40% more than we are then you need to put down the pipe, there is not an arguement in the world that would justify this kind of spread between us and them.

Just my opinion.

[DJ@Retired]

So should we throw our arms up and say I give up? Way don't we just all be assimilated residence is fueltile. I rather die a free man then be a slave.  
I know these are quotes from either movies or historical hero's
But one person can make a difference. Then another, Then another. It starts all with a want, a need and an action. So the only two question. Is there a need and is there a want?  Karma to all for the discussion.

[alphadude]

as oprah may have said' "why not change jobs or just move out of town?"  The Gandhi approach may work but this is 40 years in the making so good luck. The hump and what is not sinking in it that most RATS are transient work force and small in number. And if you dont come to work, it still gets done.

I would ponder a while before laying down on the tracks to stop of this SuperChief.

Oh by the way, we have been trying this since 1977 and its the same story over and over and over again.

[Already Gone]

I am thinking that most of us would be happy to be within' 15% total compensation when compared to our house tech. buddies. Even if we were paid as contractors dollar for dollar what the house folks make on an hourly basis, consider the 25%+ addition for bene's.

I also think that there is a valid arguement for the inconvenience of being a rent a tech. We travel away from home for months at a time during the year, many of us leaving our wives and children at home hundreds of miles away. If you really think that it can be argued that house techs are deserving of 25 - 40% more than we are then you need to put down the pipe, there is not an arguement in the world that would justify this kind of spread between us and them.

Just my opinion.

Seems like I've heard this song before.  Look, you get what you are willing to accept.  If you take a job for what they offer, than you are worth what you are getting.  If you don't like it, you have to change it.
You are not going to convince me, or anybody else, that you should get a lot more money just because you think you deserve it  - even if you do.  As long as somebody else - who may not be as good a tech as you, but can man a control point with his eyes open most of the time - agrees for less, he has set the price.  You want to change that, then you don't appeal to Bartlett, or the utilities; you have to work that out with each other.  You don't file a grievance against a company for paying you the rate that you agreed to accept, and expect that to solve your problems.  You get all your buddies together and agree on what is fair, and then you ask for that together.  This is the essence of the union.  All speak with one voice.  But first, you have to get them all to agree.

My disagreement with DJ is that he's trying to squeeze union working conditions through the back door.  Basically trying to get things started by stirring up a controversy over nothing.  Never gonna happen, my friend.  You gotta do this together, and you gotta do it by the rules, or it won't work. 

Biloxi Blues is right about a lot of things.  House techs are NOT the answer to the roadies' dilemma.  They have enough just trying to maintain their own deal.  Most of them could care less if you are getting treated well, either they have bigger problems of their own, or they take you for granted, or they just don't want you there.  You are eating away their overtime and taking jobs away from them - whether you pay dues to the local or not.  Sure, if they have to have you there, they are going to squeeze all the hot nasty work out of you that they can, but wouldn't miss many of you if you didn't show up.  Sometimes, the house staff just loves you, but even then they are not at all concerned with your arrangement with your employer.  It's not their problem.

[Brett LaVigne]

My gawwwwwwwd this thread is long in the tooth...and redundantly redundant.

Either get on board with the current push through npua or don't, but please...someone shoot this thread in the head.

[Marlin]

My gawwwwwwwd this thread is long in the tooth...and redundantly redundant.

Either get on board with the current push through npua or don't, but please...someone shoot this thread in the head.

Long enough to have lost the original post about the IBEW.

[RDTroja]

My gawwwwwwwd this thread is long in the tooth...and redundantly redundant.

Either get on board with the current push through npua or don't, but please...someone shoot this thread in the head.

As long as people are unwilling to take responsibility for themselves this dead horse will continue to get whipped.

To repeat myself once again:

If you can't live with what you are getting paid to do the work you do, then hold out until you get more. Before that will work you have to have a lot of the people that you work with agree that it is worth doing. A union will help do that, for a price. Unfortunately that price is not just your union dues, it includes a loss of some of your freedom... the freedom to work when and where you want (not guaranteed anyway, but attainable if your reputation is good enough), the freedom to NOT work when you want without penalty, and the freedom to switch between jobs as the opportunity arises. Not all of the freedom you now have, but some. Only you can decide if the trade-off is worth it. The big catch is you probably have to make the decision before you have all the facts.

I am not going to try to make that decision for anyone and advocate for or against anyone organizing or joining a union. For me, no one has been able to show me enough evidence to prove it would be worth it to me. I may be an unusual case, but I generally am happy with the jobs I get and the money I am paid. Sometimes I work as a tech, sometimes as ALARA, Rad Engineer or instructor. Would I like more money? Of course. Am I willing to trade off what I have now for what a union would offer? I have no way to make that assessment with any assurance... and not even the union can tell me for sure.

Over 34 years I have made a pretty decent living in a crazy business and have had more freedom than most of the people I know. That is why I like the job. I spent a lot of time building a reputation as someone that could be counted on to show up on time, pass the tests, do the job well, stay until released and not be a pain-in-the-ass to the site coordinator (mostly.) In other words, I live up to my end of the agreement I make when I accept the job. That is all anyone asks. Sometimes the job is great and sometimes... well, less than great. But I meet my commitments. For that I get offered better outages, an occasional job with a fancier title and more money, and steady work. I don't focus on what the other people are making. If I think I screwed up by taking what I was offered, I learn from the error and apply it the next time. If the house techs make more all I have to do is ask myself if I want their job and the answer comes up no. If money was the only factor, I would be planted somewhere thinking about the day I start collecting my pension (in about 12 or so years.)

If the money is the most important thing for you, join a union. If there are other considerations that you use to decide what you do for a living then be very careful that you know what the cost of that extra money is. It may be worth it, but someone will have to show me the details first. So far no one has offered that to me.

Roger Troja
Department of Redundancy Department

[Marlin]

Roger Troja
Department of Redundancy Department

That's next to the Department of Silly Walks isn't it? Just keep and eye out for the little white rabbit and keep the Holy Handgrenade close by!!! 

[RDTroja]

That's next to the Department of Silly Walks isn't it? Just keep and eye out for the little white rabbit and keep the Holy Handgrenade close by!!! 

Never leave home without it.

[thenukeman]

They just showed the FBI rounding up alot of mob people.  The NBC news said this will help in New York, but the Mob influence is still great in the Labor unions.