NukeWorker Forum
Career Path => Outages => Topic started by: wlrun3@aol.com on Mar 30, 2007, 11:40
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...do any other utilities besides exelon work 7 12s...is there a reason...
...what is the status of the upcoming restriction on hours worked...how will it be managed...
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Many companies do, as needed.
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...in my experience, going beyond 72 hours, though not rare, is something out of the ordinary and requires relatively high level approval...at exelon plants 84 hours is almost an expectation...
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wattinell iza purpose of going to a 4 week outage iffen ya ain't dune 84s?
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We (BFN OPS) used to work 7-12, NRC pretty much told us no blanket waivers even for outages. We now work 6-12's for refueling outages. That's OK on dayshift, makes night shift a little harder if you want to stay up and see the family on your day off. We are nearing the end of a 40+ day power uprate outage on U2, and approaching startup of U1, needless to say it is very challenging!
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If they'd let me do my outage here at VY on 40's, I would. It's not that the money isn't nice, but my kids are small, and overtime messes with them......
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wattinell iza purpose of going to a 4 week outage iffen ya ain't dune 84s?
eye wuz refurincing rode peepel.
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wattinell iza purpose of going to a 4 week outage iffen ya ain't dune 84s?
ifn it wuz jest won phore weak outije aey mite agrie with ewe (sorry folks, gotta speak Glo's language).....butt whin yinze put tewgethur thrie ov them in a roe, it kin git kindo weeriesum. A phew uv uz aint ez yung az we wuz in 1980.
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I don't get it. You are working 84 hours in a week. And the NRC says that that is too much. So you only work 72 Hours now. What is this 'overtime' thing you speak of?
I am sorry. I don't venture out of the Navy boards too often. I am looking for my breadcrumbs so I can find my way back. ;)
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There are limits to how much one can work. Usually these limits apply to a minimum to Operators, Rad Protection, Chem Techs and Maintenance personnel. At my old plant they applied to everyone.
A rolling clock is used.
The Limits are usually as follows
1: No more than 16 hours straight excluding turnover.
2: No more than 16 hours in a 24 hour period excluding turnover time.
3: No more than 24 Hours in a 48 hour period excluding turnover time.
4: No more than 72 hours in any 7 days period excluding turnover time.
5: A minimum of 8 hours off including turnover time (this one can be tricky) because if you work 8 hours, then are called back into work you're still ok, the intent is to not jockey around a 16 in a 24 in a manner that 8 hours CONTINUOUS time off is not provided.
Most plants provide up to one hour of Turnover time. The NRC usually frowns on anything over an hour but in some cases, ie key positions during an outage I've seen up to 90 minutes allowed. Using one hour one can work 78 hours in a 7 day work week because 6 of those hours are technically not working but turning over.
Any working past these hours require PRE APPROVAL, in other words say I've been there 23 hours in a 48 hour period. Operator A can't make it into work and I'm asked to stay over until another Operator can be called in. Before I can stay over a Waiver has to be approved. In most cases the Plant Manager has to approve the waiver but they will allow a Shift Manager to approve it after contacting the PM. The bottom line is the PM has to be called. At my plant a SM can sign any waiver except 16 hours continuous. The PM has to sign it. I HATE figuring Working Hour Limits because in some cases it can be VERY tricky especially if the guy worked an odd hour shift during the period. Working Hour Limits mostly come up in Operations, by that I mean unexpected Waivers as there has to be a minimum number of Operators onsite at any one time. The time it is most violated is on last minute Overtime calls. Many individuals don't understand OT Limits and its up to the individual to state whether they can accept the assignment without needing a waiver. Everytime I've ever had to figure out whether someone meets them I always have to make up a table of hours worked. For SROs OT limits are a VERY common test question.
Blanket Waiver: The Term Blanket Waiver means a waiver signed for a whole department or group of people during an outage or some other period. They are frowned on by the NRC. During an outage at Fermi there was a blanket waiver for Maintenance. They worked 7/84. About 2 weeks into the outage it was very clear that personnel errors were on the rise and all the errors were being committed by maintenance personnel so the blanket waiver went away, they went back to 6/72 and the errors stopped. The maintenance group I was heading was on 6/72 all along because I thought a blanket waiver was STUPID. We had no errors the entire outage. (and none in 20 months :) ).
The Plant where I currently work has a few staffing issues which will take a few classes to alleviate so working hour limitations come up a lot due to calling of OT.
Hope this helped!
Mike
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ifn it wuz jest won phore weak outije aey mite agrie with ewe (sorry folks, gotta speak Glo's language).....butt whin yinze put tewgethur thrie ov them in a roe, it kin git kindo weeriesum. A phew uv uz aint ez yung az we wuz in 1980.
ina seventys when 40-60 dey outages ware da norm, peeps beached about knot gitting enuf werk. during da 80s 'n da marathon outages, peeps ragged bout no time off. ina 90s, da complaning wuz bout ffd, forced time off' 'n no pay rayses. ina nu millenium, ain't nuttin changed.
iffen i wuz gonna due outtages fer 30 days 'n hadda take off a day a weak, i'd probably hafta tell da site co-ord that he was overstaffed 'n i'd help him out by moving on. i sayed that ina 70s (got called back to that site, a few days later 'n got travel both ways both times) sew i'd hafta try it agin, fer auld thymes sake. besides, i keep reeding how da pay ain't upta peeps standards, so da easiest weigh to git mo money ista werk mo ours. ;)
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I don't get it. You are working 84 hours in a week. And the NRC says that that is too much. So you only work 72 Hours now. What is this 'overtime' thing you speak of?
I am sorry. I don't venture out of the Navy boards too often. I am looking for my breadcrumbs so I can find my way back. ;)
I know where your coming from C.U.F. I remember the good ole days of port and starboard duty when the only time you got to hit the beach was everyother day at knock off. I tried to make it home one morning after pulling 2 days up straight at the floating drydock and bumped a lady in front of me at a red light. She's the only thing that kept me from driving into the swamp, gators you know :D That's been 25 yrs ago so I hope its better for you guys now. They will not do that to you on the outside unless it's some very extenuating circumstances, like being snowed in for a few days (blizzard of 93' here in TN, then they break out the cots for some shuteye. Oh yeah, and I finally get paid for all those hours too ;D
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I can handle one week of little overtime for the training but I am down right pissed off with anything less than 72's for a 5 week outage or less. Waste of time and could be somewhere else making money.
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It would be nice if we knew what the hours were going to be before we took the job....although by now, most people do know Exelon works 84's.
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When I was working in the BRTs, I preferred night shift over the daylight politics by amateurs. However, a shift off would totally wreck your schedule. I had a hard time understanding the benefit of 72 or 60 hour weeks on the back 12 when you would be falling asleep halfway through the first couple of shifts of the week before readjusting. Now, while playing in the mud, it's all daylight and I haven't done any OT for half a decade. I love this country.
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Currently working 6 14s at Comanche Peak.
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Currently working 6 14s at Comanche Peak.
That just can't be efficient. I remember studies done long ago that said if you went from 8 to 10 hour shifts you gained something like 80 minutes of productive time and if you went from 10 to 12 hours you gained about 40 more minutes. I wonder how much actual productive time you get going from 12 to 14 hours... and how less productive the other 12 are due to fatigue.
And then there is the subject of how much actual take home pay comes from the additional hours after the tax-bracket jump.
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I agree. 7-12's is better than 6-14's. I'll bet an ice cream sandwich he's getting Sundays off - still 84's without any double-time. Some cheap SOB's running power plants these days. So, I wonder why the power bill hasn't gone down any since "competition" forced all these cost saving measures.
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Some cheap SOB's running power plants these days. So, I wonder why the power bill hasn't gone down any since "competition" forced all these cost saving measures.
Its because all them supers driving those SUVs and paying for all that gas on the company credit cards... I guess
Of course I hate being on the road, since I am away from the family I dont mind the long hours, as long as Spanky does not drive :o
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..hey..Lafoots...spanky dont drive...he gets Pete(the pitbull) to pull him around on Alfalfas soapbox car......
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I agree. 7-12's is better than 6-14's. I'll bet an ice cream sandwich he's getting Sundays off - still 84's without any double-time. Some cheap SOB's running power plants these days. So, I wonder why the power bill hasn't gone down any since "competition" forced all these cost saving measures.
Your right. No double bubble.
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It would be nice if we knew what the hours were going to be before we took the job....although by now, most people do know Exelon works 84's.
ok, the way it was told to me is the 72 hour rule is based on working monday through sunday only being aloud to work 6 12,s however if you start your job on tuesday you can work your 6 12 hour days then 6 more starting your new week making a total of 12 days strait you can work 12 hours a day, this way they can make you work more than 6 days with out taking a day off, this is why when we start a 12 hour work week you will see them starting on a tuesday or a wednesday.
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The 72 hour rule (if it applies to you - which it probably does not) means 72 hours in ANY 7day period, which rolls every day. So, if you take Wednesday off, you are okay until the following Wednesday. If you work ANY 7 straight days of 12 hours, you break the rule.
Sounds to me like somebody is relying on the 72 hour rule as an excuse to avoid paying OT.
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obviously, this isn't bean dun in californina where state law mandates that double time be paid on yer seventh day. period.
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...also, in every case I've ever heard of (or seen) the 72 hr rule can be waived (broken?) with a stroke of the pen. Effectively, the only thing it mandates is that they don't work you more than 72 hrs in any 7 consecutive days by accident. They can do it on purpose. Also, if you feel you are too fatigued to work more, and the licensee says you aren't; then you aren't. That was the NRC's ruling on just such a case. So essentially, they can make you work whatever they want and if you don't like it, you can go DFR.
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ok, the way it was told to me is the 72 hour rule is based on working monday through sunday only being aloud to work 6 12,s however if you start your job on tuesday you can work your 6 12 hour days then 6 more starting your new week making a total of 12 days strait you can work 12 hours a day, this way they can make you work more than 6 days with out taking a day off, this is why when we start a 12 hour work week you will see them starting on a tuesday or a wednesday.
No that is not how it works. The best way to visualize it is start at the hour you are to start work. Roll back 168 hours. If you worked 72 hours in that 168 you need a waiver.
Halcyon please site the NRC Case. My guess is there was more to do with it than what meets the eye.
Mike
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Also, if you feel you are too fatigued to work more, and the licensee says you aren't; then you aren't. That was the NRC's ruling on just such a case. So essentially, they can make you work whatever they want and if you don't like it, you can go DFR.
I am unsure about this aspect. Everywhere I have been they HAVE to ASK you to work your 7th day. I have not been forced to work seven or more straight. I have volunteered to do so.
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I heard they just voted on and passed the work hour rules. It will suck working those hours. Three days off every fifteen durring an outage. Can't make any money doing that.
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Below is the article from the NEI regarding work hours
www.nei.org/documents/pubs/neo.pdf
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It will be interesting to see how these changes are implemented. I'm house and personally wouldn't mind if we were limited to 40's for outage but I understand how travelers feel. Any extra days off mean less money and make it harder to earn a living. Of course maybe it will make them bring in more people and the extra demand will raise wages. Or pigs may fly......
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With just a swipe of a pen, they (and we all know who they are) can make the hour requirements vanish. It's happened before, and it will happen again.
On the other hand, if I work 15 days straight, I would like a litlle time off to recharge my liver :P
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Just to add a UK slant on the outage hours debate, when I worked in the maintenance section at Heysham 1 a couple of years back we used to do thirteen 12 hour shifts in every fourteen days. With an hour and a halfs travelling time a day as well I was glad to see the back of the 60 day outage. The only saving grace was the double bubble for the extra hours. Most AGR outages last for up to 60 days with a normal maintenance window being between 45 and 55 days depending on the work to be completed. Now I'am on ops at Heysham 2 we only have do do a certain number of extra hours, but we get paid for these up front on a monthly basis. ;)
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They'll be doing 7 11s at St. Lucia. But who knows when it will start. Heard the first of Sept. and now maybe sometime in Oct.
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there's a plant in St Lucia?????party time!!!!!!