NukeWorker Forum
News and Discussions => Nuke News => Topic started by: Marlin on Aug 01, 2016, 03:55
-
N.Y. regulators approve clean energy standard with nuclear subsidies
New York state energy regulators on Monday approved a plan to pay several upstate nuclear power plants up to $965 million over two years to keep the reactors in service and meet the state's carbon reduction goals.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-york-nuclear-idUSKCN10C2Z6
-
Isnt that a billion dollar subsidy?
-
Isnt that a billion dollar subsidy?
http://time.com/money/4433824/new-york-clean-energy-standard/ (http://time.com/money/4433824/new-york-clean-energy-standard/)
Nuclear Power Plants Will Get Nearly $1 Billion in Subsidies From New York State
50% of the state's power will come from clean and renewable sources of energy by 2030
New York energy regulators on Monday approved a plan to pay several upstate nuclear power plants (Reactors eligible for the program include Exelon Corp's Ginna and Nine Mile Point Units 1 and 2, and Entergy Corp's FitzPatrick.) up to $965 million over two years to keep the reactors in service and meet the state’s carbon reduction goals.
The New York Public Service Commission (PSC) approved the proposed Clean Energy Standard, which requires that 50% of the state’s power will come from clean and renewable sources of energy by 2030, including nuclear power.
The subsidies are part of an effort to keep the nuclear reactors operating at a time of low prices for power as well as low prices for the alternative generator fuel natural gas.
Notice it says "Upstate"... the nimby's still want IPEC closed.
-
Isnt that a billion dollar subsidy?
yup, sure is,...
we have been going through the cracker barrel debate on this for two weeks plus already:
New York (six months later),...
once upon a time in the "business" of operating nukes under the NYPA as public benefit corporations,...
divested to the private sector a dozen plus years ago to shed the "nuclear liabilities" from the backs of the New York taxpayer:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-t-z/appendices/nuclear-power-in-the-usa-appendix-2-power-plant-pu.aspx (http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-t-z/appendices/nuclear-power-in-the-usa-appendix-2-power-plant-pu.aspx)
Power Plant Purchases
In mid-1999, the 670 MWe Pilgrim plant was sold to Entergy by Boston Edison for $14 million plus $67 million for fuel.AmerGen, the joint venture of British Energy and PECO Energy (now Exelon), completed its purchase of the 930 MWe Clinton nuclear plant and the 790 MWe Three Mile Island plant at the end of 1999. However, its plan to acquire control of the two-unit Nine Mile Point nuclear power station (614 & 1140 MWe) was derailed by a minor shareholder exercising its veto. Constellation later bid successfully for the units.In 1999, AmerGen won the Boldest Successful Investment Decision award from the Financial Times. AmerGen was cited as "a huge success ... with expected strong financial returns" and "a bold investment which has created new confidence in the US nuclear industry."In March 2000, Entergy Corporation reached agreement to buy the New York Power Authority's (NYPA) Indian Point 3 (965 MWe) and Fitzpatrick (778 MWe) nuclear power plants for $967 million, topping a bid by Dominion Resources. The complexity of the transaction is indicated by the terms that included $636 million for the two mid-1970s units, nearly $171 million for the fuel, $92 million to reduce NYPA's decommissioning obligation, and other amounts related to power purchase. There are also provisions for further payments if licences for the 25 year old plants are extended. NYPA retains the $630 million decommissioning funds and pay them when required, while Entergy accepts the $250 million risk of any adverse tax ruling on these. Up to 500 MWe of the combined output is available to NYPA at 2.9 cents/kWh, the remainder at 3.2 or 3.6 cents/kWh. The sale closed in November 2000......
_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ _____________
what was old is new again, welcome to the rebirth of the public benefit nuclear power plant paradigm:
Cuomo nuclear plan blunts criticism by combining with renewables
http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/albany/story/2016/07/cuomo-nuclear-plan-blunts-criticism-by-combining-it-with-renewables-103962 (http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/albany/story/2016/07/cuomo-nuclear-plan-blunts-criticism-by-combining-it-with-renewables-103962)
....As a political maneuver, the plan yielded little public criticism because it combined two different energy sources and an upstate job protection program. There was mostly public support for the plan even though monthly utility bills will now increase by about $2 a month as residents across the state pay energy giant Exelon above-market rates for the nuclear energy produced at the four upstate reactors.Billions of dollars, perhaps more than $8 billion, will go to nuclear reactors, according to some estimates. Major environmental groups that worked to close California’s last nuclear reactor a few weeks ago were silent, including some that told POLITICO New York on background that they could not oppose a plan that gave unprecedented support to clean energy. The deal means New York is among the first states to put a price on carbon, to enact a policy that recognizes the social cost of fossil fuels, such as their role in creating climate change. It also recognizes nuclear as a power source that should be propped up by the state if it can’t survive on the open market. Nuclear facilities across the country are struggling to compete against cheap natural gas, which has driven down power prices.Under the plan, the four reactors in upstate New York will receive $1 billion in ratepayer subsidies in the next two years, and billions more after that.....
and some more over here:
https://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,41697.msg195372.html#msg195372
and here:
https://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,41695.msg195343.html#msg195343
and six months ago over here:
as I understand it the licensee has no choice to not build unless they choose to shutdown,....
which comes back to the current paradigm where the regulators and their bosses in the current administration talk an okay nuclear game but don't walk the talk, they shut down Yucca so there is no final repository, they demand Fukushima and security upgrades which push the smaller margin sites into being untenable, and they reassure with talk about "future, safe, nuclear" but in the last eight years there is no new nuclear, and as illustrated before a couple of ways, once the market gets below a certain percentage, nuclear just drops off the radar screen,....
when nuclear loses it's economy of scale, it no longer makes sense as a commercial business venture,...
perhaps some viability if run as a public benefit corporation,...
but, there you go,... [coffee]
-
http://time.com/money/4433824/new-york-clean-energy-standard/ (http://time.com/money/4433824/new-york-clean-energy-standard/)
.....Notice it says "Upstate"... the nimby's still want IPEC closed.
New York politics,...
The CES has revenue thresholds that Indian Point will not fall below due to revenue from NYC (metro north rails, subways, etcetera),...
without being tied to the NYS taxpayer the IP site is now still a target to be sacrificed to the NYC green mafia,...
the upstate jobs market is secured to help keep those votes in Democrat play for statewide office,...
hey, I DnD'd at Shoreham,...
beautiful plant, I was hoping to work there after my USN stint but then,...
there you go,..... :-\
-
The unfair and unbalanced approach is terrible. What about Ginna?
-
So its ok to bitch about solar getting a subsidy while units that are losing millions of dollars are being supported by rate payers?
-
The unfair and unbalanced approach is terrible. What about Ginna?
[devious] 8) What happen to don't feed the trolls ??? :P [devious]
Groot has no nuance of speech, I see bits and pieces of old posts taken out of context that don't belong in this discussion.
-No nuke plants have not been subsidized.
-Yes nuclear has economic challenges for the old light water designs.
-The subsidy introduced is part of the green money that subsidizes "Green" energy. If they were not already on line they probably would not be built outside the southern nuclear zone. Not so much much pro-nuke as anti-carbon.
- So yes nuclear is now subsidized. The so-called subsidies that anti-nukes claimed nukes had were industrial tax breaks that all major industries got to insure modernization continued.
-I personally object to subsidies for any existing power facility, research yes, but I feel that government does not belong in business.
OK [spank] now I fed the troll again, the [devious] made me do it.
[GH] [salute]
[coffee]
-
So its ok to bitch about solar getting a subsidy while units that are losing millions of dollars are being supported by rate payers?
I'm not sure to where which to who you are directing this statement or is it just a general thing?!?!?!?
if you read my perception(s) you would pick up the principle that NOBODY should be subsidized,...
once subsidies begin the playing field gets all skewed up,...
so,.......
subsidies are defacto part of the energy policy or patronage or whatever one wishes to call the assinine lack of vision and lack of principle our geoacademiapolitical pedagogy currently substitutes for an energy policy,...
so,.......
if the politicos of New York give subsidies to New York nukes good for the NY Nukes,...
if the politicos of Nebraska or Iowa or California choose to run their nukes out of business while praising the glories of becalmed wind farms and overcast solar arrays, well, it sucks to be a nukeworker in those locales,...
it all comes down to choice,...
e.g.:
if your statement is meant specifically for me, and if you had followed my post and reviewed here:
and some more over here:
https://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,41697.msg195372.html#msg195372 (https://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,41697.msg195372.html#msg195372)
you would have noted I replied to a vehemently proud, and playing field frustrated young nukeworker thusly:
so, are the "people" of New York "dumb" as presented over in this other thread:
OR, is the world adjusting to the realities of a new playing field,...
ya see Bonds 25, you are taking the principled position,...
the problem with that is the unprincipled do not play by your rules, actually, they do not play by any rules,...
..........principled people would have never got to the place where the cold hard facts require taxpayer subsidy of nuke plants to make them competitive with natural gas plants because the wind and solar cabals cannot meet their promises or projections,...
all the while you and your principles are yesterday's eulogy,...
so, as a principled citizen, do you accept the taxpayer subsidy to keep your slice of the american dream viable for you and yours?!?!?!
OR,...
do you walk away from the corruption of it all and become a principled WalMart greeter?!?!?!?
the cold hard facts in New York are that the unprincipled wind and solar cabal with their unprincipled greencolytes all in league with unprincipled politicos cannot deliver what were deliberate, deceptive, depictions of a future utopia where mankind lives in some sort of technosplendor without bending a single blade of Gaia grasslands,...
sooooo,...
now the greencolytes have to subsidize nuclear,...
is not that just a delicious comeuppance to the willfully ignorant?!?!?!?
I'M LOVING IT!!!!!!!!!!!! :P ;) :) 8)
(sic),...for beercort
now, all assumptions notwithstanding,....
if you are actually too busy with your life to be bothered to review my deliberate and exhaustive posts with footnotes, plaster tire tracks, foot prints, dog smelling prints, twenty seven eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against subsidies, pictures of the subsidies approach,the getaway, the northwest windfarm corner, the southwest solar corner, and that's not to mention the aerial photography I try to include,...
well,.....
I understand,...
Enjoy the Day!!!!!!!! 8)
-
The unfair and unbalanced approach is terrible. What about Ginna?
read the article:
N.Y. regulators approve clean energy standard with nuclear subsidies
New York state energy regulators on Monday approved a plan to pay several upstate nuclear power plants up to $965 million over two years to keep the reactors in service and meet the state's carbon reduction goals.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-york-nuclear-idUSKCN10C2Z6 (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-york-nuclear-idUSKCN10C2Z6)
....Reactors eligible for the program include Exelon Corp's Ginna and Nine Mile Point Units 1 and 2, and Entergy Corp's FitzPatrick.....
-
I'm hoping he confused Ginna with Indian Point.......like maybe a typo.
For the record, Ginna was the most awesome, bestist, coolest, terrific Nuclear Power Plant......until RG&E sold it. Ginna could be considered my "home" plant. I applied once.....thank god I ended up in Washington. Nothing against Ginna in general.....but New York SUCKS!!!!
-
New York does suck......but this could be industry (life) changing 😳
So, you go New York 🌞
-
New York City, however, kicks azz. Love spending some time in the city.
-
Isnt that a billion dollar subsidy?
gist a guess, butt aye yam figuring n.y. pols don't wanna here wining bout brownouts wile shutting down coal fires.
-
gist a guess, butt aye yam figuring n.y. pols don't wanna here wining bout brownouts wile shutting down coal fires.
not hardly,...
there might be 3 coal plants left operating in all of the state, perhaps two or three other idled/retired dirt burners which could convert to natgas,...
coal, oil, wind and solar account for less than 10% of the power generated in New York,...
nuclear's 33%,...
natgas is 39%,...
hydro is about 20%,...
New York runs about a 2500 MW margin, some years higher, some years lower,...
in the areas of the state where the nukes are located that margin is much thinner,....
power generation, consumption and margin is heavily skewed to the Hudson River valley and the NYC metro,...
it's politics:
IF New York wants to be the "green state" it's own legislated goals have set for itself,...
THEN New York has little realistic choice but to embrace and subsidize the established 33% of nuclear which already exists,...
particularly when those plants are owned (powned?!?!) by a bunch of Lousiana boys who are in it to make their money, and really could not give a rat's ass less how many Yankees freeze their "green is clean" asses off in some future cold, dark January,...
this latest subsidy will be about 2 dollars per month per residential customer,...
current renewable subsidies are about the same,...
of course the bang for the buck is much better, $2 for 33% of what comes down the wire versus $2 for maybe 6% of what comes down the wire,...
if you extrapolate the math you can see pretty quickly how even an energy panderer such as Cuomo had to swallow the bitter nuke pill in New York,...
high electric bills drive established New Yorkers out of state (amongst other things),...
we miss perspicacious, political, Pataki,...
we now suffer the cunning, cursory, Cuomo,...
Cuomo II that is,...
here's your primer, it is not all inclusive but it will get you started and is pert much plain english:
http://www.nyiso.com/public/webdocs/media_room/press_releases/2015/Child_PowerTrends_2015/ptrends2015_FINAL.pdf
almost forgot,...(sic 4 beercort)
-
New York does suck......but this could be industry (life) changing 😳
So, you go New York 🌞
I'm not so sure,...
NYISO within NRCC is a bit more like ERCO than it is FRCC AIUI,...
not very integrated or cooperative with the surrounding energy producers outside NY State,...
someone with deeper chops than myself will better illucidate that paradigm,...
because I am dancing on the edges of my proficiency here,...
it does make the NY State market more self sufficient (or not) AIUI,...
which should behoove NY State to encourage it's energy production owners to be stakeholders in the state as opposed to energy dollar carpetbaggers,...
but hey, turnaround is fair play,... :-\
-
New York City, however, kicks azz. Love spending some time in the city.
NYC is fine....fun for short stints. I'm talking about the rest of the state (mostly western).
Terrible weather (hot, humid summers, LONG horrible winters) for 9 months of the year.
High property tax
High sales tax
High income tax
I mean, my property taxes are a couple grand less a year here in Washington on a house that's worth over three times more than the house I owned in NY.....and we ain't talking an upscale location.
-
It wont happen anywhere else!
-
I didn't know you would dance GLW. Yes it is a subsidy groot. Now I guess you understand that the almighty $$$ right at this moment of different types of powr production isn't the only thing that decides whether nuclear power lives or dies. I hope you enjoyed your lesson! Remember groot, politics and the environment will also come into play.
-
I didn't know you would dance GLW......
there is actually a VHS cassette, circa 1979 of GLW in a disco competition,...
GLW and his lady friend took second place,...
think Vicki Sue Robinson,... 8)
-
It wont happen anywhere else!
bet it does:
NY was the CES,...
Ohio has the AEPS framework,...
Connecticut has the DEEP framework,...
Iowa has the PPA framework,...
the recipe is carbon credits (subsidies), power contracts, a regulated market (state or region), a low-carbon portfolio standard and a nuclear
portfolio standard,...
the first lemming ( NY State) has run over the cliff,...
(http://orig11.deviantart.net/2036/f/2009/207/0/0/lemmings_by_mirz123.gif)
and then,...
there's California:
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w114/Trekkie_2007/AAAAHH.gif) (http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w114/Trekkie_2007/AAAAHH.gif) (http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w114/Trekkie_2007/AAAAHH.gif)
Enjoy the Day!!!!
8)
-
Nope wont happen. Some assemblies actually believe the people paying the bill is the customer.
-
REC's and ZECs
Impacts of NY’s Nuclear Power ‘Bail Out’ and Solar, Wind Boost
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2130861-impacts-of-nys-nuclear-power-bail-out-and-solar-wind-boost/ (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2130861-impacts-of-nys-nuclear-power-bail-out-and-solar-wind-boost/)
-
but do they believe the customer is also breathing the air?
-
With Clean Energy Standard, New York looks to save nukes, skirt legal challenges
http://www.utilitydive.com/news/with-clean-energy-standard-new-york-looks-to-save-nukes-skirt-legal-chall/423673/ (http://www.utilitydive.com/news/with-clean-energy-standard-new-york-looks-to-save-nukes-skirt-legal-chall/423673/)
-
With Clean Energy Standard, New York looks to save nukes, skirt legal challenges
http://www.utilitydive.com/news/with-clean-energy-standard-new-york-looks-to-save-nukes-skirt-legal-chall/423673/ (http://www.utilitydive.com/news/with-clean-energy-standard-new-york-looks-to-save-nukes-skirt-legal-chall/423673/)
from the article:
While the order is clear in its support for the plants, it also acknowledges that New York must walk a fine line in how the supports are structured, if it is to avoid wading into wholesale market functions under the jurisdiction of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.
you know what?!?!?!?
people need to back off with "the Feds", the Feds come up with all sorts of pie in the sky BS "for the children" but no way to back it up, including all these windmills and solar panels...
ya know what pal?!?!?, New Yorkers are setting this up, New Yorkers are paying for it, this is a New York thing, it's an in-house fight,...
stay home, tend to your own, find new customers for your wholesale power producers, kiss our New York ass,...
-
kiss our New York ass,...
How do you really feel?
-
The air has zero to do with it. The climate change item is a strawman argument
-
The government in NY begs to differ. And whether they are right about it or not doesn't matter if people's perception is there. It's what the state governments actually DO that matters. Maybe nuclear is finally catching a break in a favorable direction based on perception for once.
-
The air has zero to do with it. The climate change item is a strawman argument
most people posting here have always agreed with that,...
subsidies for wind and solar and the related "green, non hydrocarbon" generators should have never been,...
coal plants should still be going strong where it is appropriate for coal plants to be,...
BUT,...
the state sets the playing field, not us,...
New York State has regraded the playing field (again) in New York,...
PLAY BALL!!!!!
YMMV,... 8)
-
most people posting here have always agreed with that,...
Nope, that would imply that the money is not really there. The emissions controls makes the money available and therefore profitability for the utility even if it is not from raw production. The only strawman argument is at the root here, Climate Change (AGT) is the fallacy or at least the alarmist version of it in my opinion but that is a debate for PolySci. RECs makes wind and solar financially viable ZECs make nuclear financially viable were available. Money in the black column is still credit not debit on the spreadsheets.
-
I think whether you believe in Global Warming or not, you have to agree that the economy is changing every year to add more value to non-carbon producing power plants. Not saying that it is right or wrong, but it is happening. Where else can you get that many GW that quickly from non-carbon? The plants are already built. What will happen state by state is anybody's guess, but the fact that coal plants are being removed so quickly in most states implies more and more value for any non-carbon production overall. Lemmings.....
-
Nope, that would imply that the money is not really there. The emissions controls makes the money available and therefore profitability for the utility even if it is not from raw production. The only strawman argument is at the root here, Climate Change (AGT) is the fallacy or at least the alarmist version of it in my opinion but that is a debate for PolySci. RECs makes wind and solar financially viable ZECs make nuclear financially viable were available. Money in the black column is still credit not debit on the spreadsheets.
I am not following your post,....
credits (recs/zecs/etc.) Are subsidies,....
subsidies based on strawman science,....
the money is not "there", the money is expropriated by strawman justifications,....
what NY has done is simple,...
NY has realized the futility of the earlier strawman but refuses to be " retroprogressive",....
so, as cold reality settles in NY concedes to grid stability with ZECs for nuclear,....
-
I am not following your post,....
credits (recs/zecs/etc.) Are subsidies,....
subsidies based on strawman science,....
the money is not "there", the money is expropriated by strawman justifications,....
what NY has done is simple,...
NY has realized the futility of the earlier strawman but refuses to be " retroprogressive",....
so, as cold reality settles in NY concedes to grid stability with ZECs for nuclear,....
...we are so close
8)
Saying the money is there but not really because the root cause of is a strawman argument would seem to be a strawman argument. :P
A strawman argument is one supported by a fallacy. The money is not a fallacy. The reason for the money is a fallacy in my opinion but not in the opinion of the government providing the subsidies.
A strawman argument may also be misdirection by answering with a reply not presented by the other side. I guess you can go back to previous arguments on viability of nuclear power exclude the benefit of subsidies and make the argument that the old plants designed in the 60s are not self supporting and I would agree. You can argue that if gas prices stay stagnet at the current low prices nuclear at least for the older plants is dead if not in a regulated market. You can make all of those arguments but in reply to a discussion that has subsides as a central point of the discussion on the viability of the applicable nuclear plants where the subsides are real the strawman argument is the one that says air quality or AGT is a strawman argument is a strawman argument.
[coffee]
-
...we are so close
you are correct, too close to worry 'bout the outliers,...
Enjoy the Day!!!!
peace....GLW 8)
-
you are correct, too close to worry 'bout the outliers,...
Enjoy the Day!!!!
peace....GLW 8)
Is that an agree to disagree ??? [dowave] [GH]
-
Is that an agree to disagree ??? [dowave] [GH]
That's a "it's time to drink some beer, and let the internet have a nap."
-
That's a "it's time to drink some beer ,
That's a "it's time to drink some beer wine 8)
and let the internet have a nap."
The internet is the break from work ;) now it's time for bed.
... just wanted to stay in character with my adversarial not having any of it persona... [salute]
[coffee]
-
I guess this is how it goes: I like GLW, I think he's smart dude, but sometimes I don't understand what he is trying to say.
-
It wont happen anywhere else!
bet it does:
and it did,...
Connecticut,...
http://www.powermag.com/connecticut-ohio-pennsylvania-make-substantive-gains-for-state-nuclear-subsidies/
Illinois,...
http://www.elp.com/articles/2016/12/illinois-pass-subsidy-bill-to-save-state-s-nuclear-power-plants.html
and pending elsewhere, e.g. Pennsylvania,...
https://about.bnef.com/blog/pennsylvania-next-nuclear-plants-seek-subsidies/
Ohio,...
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/new-ohio-bill-reintroduces-nuclear-subsidy-program-as-doe-pushes-cost-recov/507389/
(gotta keep the lights on at the Pizza House ya know!)
absolutes are time bombs on the internet,...
-
OBTW -
Ohio passed and signed in 2019,....
PA did some sorta RGGI thing, while the BV operators still hold closure over their heads post 2022,...
(http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/Assets/necromancer.jpg)