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Reference, Questions and Help => Nuke Q&A => Lessons Learned => Topic started by: Rennhack on Dec 28, 2003, 05:56

Title: Marrsim & 5849
Post by: Rennhack on Dec 28, 2003, 05:56
Lessons Learned: Marrsim & 5849

The purpose of this forum is to document on-the-job work experiences. Submit your best solutions for various jobs and processes. This is not to be plant specific, rumor, slander or urban legend. Postings will be reviewed, verified, edited for content, and archived for future reference. Post a summary for review if you wish to post a thesis or position paper. We are getting fewer and fewer, but before the knowledge is lost forever and plant / sites reinvent the wheel; we need to document what we have learned.
Title: Re: Lessons Learned: Marrsim & 5849
Post by: stirfry on Dec 29, 2003, 02:18
5849 was much more simplicstic. You didn't nave to satisfy 3 directives.
Title: Re: Lessons Learned: Marrsim & 5849
Post by: moke on Dec 30, 2003, 12:35
What I have learned regarding the two guidance documents is the fact that if an entity fails during the initial scoping and characterization phase there will be serious cost overruns. This has been tradition at many projects.

This is where you need that detailed characterization plan, that if executed, will guarantee success. Addtitionally, you need that technician that is dying to find the stuff just to piss people off or those just hungry for a challenge. The desire to succeed must originate from the king pin.

On the other hand, poor characterization equates to easy money! This usually happens when inexperienced charcterization plan authors are driven by somethning other than a strong desire to find the EXTENT of the Radiological Conditions.

Key word being: EXTENT This should be tatooed to that persons forehead. Nothing like being apart of a D&D project that can't take the first step. This is how many of us make our living. Tell us the story of what is actually there vice assumption? Extent and Consolidation are great words for and HP's vocabulary yet the word Assumption stands as a four letter word when dealing with the aforementioned guidance documents.

Many will disagree with upfront planning until heads start to roll. Aggressive and relentless pre-planning is the key to success! "If you fail to plan, then you plan to fail!" Fegetaboutit!

Poor Characterization leads to Cost Overruns (nobody wins) that leads to Baseline Cost Realignment that leads to CHAOS and easy green! You wanna save your project? EXTENT is the word!

No harm. Just a personal thought.

Hauoli Makahiki Hou (Happy New Year!)!


Moke ;D

Title: Re: Lessons Learned: Marrsim & 5849
Post by: SloGlo on Dec 31, 2003, 03:40
yer da man, moke,
truer werdz were ne'er spoke!

especially the bit about the characterization must determine the extent!  oh how i love coming in on a contract where they (management) sez... "we only got a little bit rite here."  "this wuz the only place that production took place."  "this place has already been gone over by the best in the bizness, even had the boys from oak ridge up here."  oh baby, open up anudder bank account, 'cause eye am gonna fill mine up before eye leave here!
Title: Re: Lessons Learned: Marrsim & 5849
Post by: alphadude on Dec 31, 2003, 08:03
characterization-ask BNFL- now they are stuck with a white elephant that they can't manage-
Title: Re: Lessons Learned: Marrsim & 5849
Post by: moke on Jan 15, 2004, 03:50
Worked on a few projects where incomplete scoping and characterization surveys hurt.

When a surveyor detects radioactive material contamination during a Final Status Survey effort it is not good for the client yet it may be great for the technicians and contracting firm yet it sends out a loud message.

In many cases, new zones must be included and the scope of work increases and sometime in excess of budgetary restraints.

Yeh the job may be extended and easy money made yet it's a major pain to many. In some cases, people go away.

Why not find the stuff upfront? Well in some cases, some are willing to roll the dice and take a chance. Sometime you win and sometime costs sky rocket.

I have found that if a person conducting Gamma Walkover surveys is weak mentally, the job will not get done properly and much will be missed. There may be serious error here and I recommend that you find those candidates to fill the bill.

No pussy cats allowed. Yeh your arms and back will hurt yet it serves as a great exercise for me since I enjoy surfing and great for the arms yet the technician without a similar purpose may tire quickly and now you have crappy data.

Good data? Extremely important and to me it means giving the detector a chance to identify the target. In the case of Sodium Iodide, you will find the stuff if the surveyor allows for 125% coverage with a prescribed technique.

A weak minded technician should not conduct gamma walkovers manually. The increase in error goes up 100 fold! Be careful.

Bottomline for Supervisors:

1) Take care of your crew, pay them well and communicate your intent and follow-up to attain success. Allow for breaks and inject a heaping dose of humor! ;D

The surveys are best done with a tightly knitted group of people who don't mind wearing many different hats during the course of a workday and possess a great sense of humor. Have you ever worked with dull personalities? You know what I mean. Fegetaboutit!

The right equipment and support are important yet consistent day to day communications help.   

There are so many lessons to include and hope to see additional contributions.

Have an Awesome Week!

Moke ;D
Title: Re: Marrsim & 5849
Post by: SloGlo on Jan 17, 2004, 03:28
.... they decided it would be cheaper to maintain their license for a few more years. 

i got a freend who's in that same fix.  started a d&d a wile back, 'n now he's just doing decon.  butt he's not complayning!
Title: Re: Marrsim & 5849
Post by: jdnelson on Jan 24, 2005, 12:36
Aggressive and relentless pre-planning is the key to success! "If you fail to plan, then you plan to fail!"

I absolutely agree.

Planning for a Final Status Survey (FSS) begins with a thorough examination of a site's history.  The Historical Site Assessment (HSA) is the first important tool MARSSIM users should use.  Fully exploring the a site's history can save huge amounts of time and money down the road. 

Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, many places do not have very sufficint historical records or data.  This then should lead planners to conduct much more extensive scoping/characterization surveys.  Otherwise as Moke has stated this can lead to significant cost overruns. Imagine starting a FSS only to stop, remediated, replan and implement then the FSS. 

I also want to stress another point Moke made about commmunications.  I have found that communications between supervision and field personnel (crew) is absolutely essential.  This includes a thorough job briefing as well as daily interactions.  A lack of understanding on the crews part can lead to poor data as well as rework.  I have learned that the hard way.  It is important for the supervisor to commincate his instructions as well as follow up with field inspections and data reviews daily.  This helps the supervisor to make corretions early as well as to assist with discovering problems with the existing plans.  I have to say that my communciation skills were not sufficient when I first statred a large FSS for the EPA.  This bit me in the ass repeatedly until I got up to speed.  You are forwarned.

In short, PRE-PLANNING and COMMINCATION are absolutely important to complete a FSS in a timely and cost efficient manor.

 ;D jdnelson
Title: Re: Marrsim & 5849
Post by: roadhard on Jan 24, 2005, 01:36
Mike started this thread for the purpose of obtaining lessons learned. Hopefully, the entities who award & bid on contracts, particularly those entities that did not get the product they were looking for from their vendor and the vendor that took a substantial loss in an earnest effort to provide the product, need to read this thread.

A complete site characterization study must be on the table for a fixed price D&D contract to be realistic.

The entity awarding the contract holds considerable leverage over the prime.

Companies who submitt proposals need to include an individual on the review team, who has expert knowledge of process on radiological impact, to pour over the characterization study and walk down the site before submitting a bid that could be the death of the company.

Entities submitting bids that are won without accounting for the total radiological impact wind up loosing money and ruining the careers of, or making life miserable for, good people who try to do the impossible.

Mismanagement starts with a missed mark on the bid.

Title: Re: Marrsim & 5849
Post by: alphadude on Jan 24, 2005, 02:27
when all else fails TIME AND MATERIALS $$$$$ CHA-CHING (typical cash register noise) ohhh here are some good hints

if u dont want to use marssim use the surface contamination monitor- (SCM)

if u use any thing else you are at risk- a non-marssim with hand held detectors is a sure failure- (eg K33)

use marssim as the bible

use visual sample plan



Get engineers on board that understand statistical reasoning

Don't believe that deconners will be finished "next week"

Don't decon an area without a full characterization

Never underestimate groundwater dose unless u plan to pump and treat.

Title: Re: Marrsim & 5849
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Jan 25, 2005, 05:03
I haven't quite figured it out, is it the fact that they Can't Say, or Won't Say?   :-\
Title: Re: Marrsim & 5849
Post by: alphadude on Jan 25, 2005, 07:07
"thems that knows dont say; thems that say dont know" 

Nevada test site 1965