NukeWorker Forum
Career Path => Outages => Topic started by: jjordan on Dec 17, 2006, 10:46
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Hmmmm, sounds like the IBEW may be able to help! 8) What do ya'll think? I know that the last time, it was poorley organized by a few self serving individuals. :'( The contractors need it way more than the house techs. I still haven't forgotten where I came from. ;) I want to know if anyone is interested, and would you be willing to help? ??? It's a lot of work, but with a lot of support it would be much easier.We are already disscussing/ working on it. If we do it again, we need to succeed this time. It shouldn't cost the contract companies much, and think about it. If they are working on a percentage, it benefits them also. The increases should mainly be absorbed by the utilities, who are the main culprits anyways. They set all of the rules by contract. They want it for as little as possible, which is good business! But it's time once again to try to get a fair deal. It's way harder now with the shorter outages, to make enough to support a family. Don't look for them to volunteer any extra money, or benefits. We have to go get it for ourselves! Watch our website for a link real soon.(pgnunion.com) It'll help get you in touch with the right people , and get the ball rolling. A lot of you still may remember me from a previous life, and I hope you trust me. Trust is important here! I'm already taking a lot of heat, and a little more isn't going to matter too much to me at this point. :P Lets get on with it! ;)
JJ
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well..that might no be a bad idea & communication would be better this time around w/ cell phones & internet & stuff.
And with only 1 big company & 1 medium size company to deal with, the outcome could be different!
Good Luck!
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SCREW THE I.B.E.W. !!!!! Those ratbastards didn't do squat for us the last time,no direction,no guidence,and we got no benie's nada!
I told them get any other union in the beginning,because I belong to that union for 7 years before and I saw it in action and I didn't like it a bit.
I didn't care if we got a toliet scubbing union to represent us,anybody but the ibew
I was a huge supporter in the strike and what we were doing.I walked at crystal river.
I would love to see more matching 401k contributions since we have no pensions and covering more of our med. cobra costs more,oh yeah money ,god I know i should lay off the crack pipe but it keeps calling me back.
I still support it but most techs are older,self centered,and are to afraid to do it again.The ones that wern't afraid to do it the first time,we know who the ones that didn't.
O and most seemed to be as broke as the day they started ,god knows why???????????
PS: I know i'll get hate mail for this peace out.
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SCREW THE I.B.E.W. !!!!! Those ratbastards didn't do squat for us the last time,no direction,no guidence,and we got no benie's nada!
I told them get any other union but them in the beginning,because I belong to that union for 7 years before and I saw it in action and I didn't like it a bit.
I didn't care if we got a toliet scubbing union to represent us,anybody but the ibew
I was a huge supporter in the strike and what we were doing.I walked at crystal river.
I would love to see more matching 401k contributions since we have no pensions and covering more of our med. cobra costs more,oh yeah money ,god I know i should lay off the crack pipe but it keeps calling me back.
I still support it but most techs are older,self centered,and are to afraid to do it again.The ones that wern't afraid to do it the first time,we know who the ones that didn't.
O and most seemed to be as broke as the day they started ,god knows why???????????
PS: I know i'll get hate mail for this peace out.
My hubby walked at Hatch, I was there and recorded it for the world to see. I even turned it in to WRDW tv in Augusta GA who did run it as a news story. I attempted to have it picked up by the AP but actually recieved a letter from them that due to wire constraints they could not do it.
I don't know about it being a lack of organization, but there was an inablility to allow the country as a whole to realize that this (the walkout) was happening all over the country. I was here in Barnwell fielding questions from the west coast asking if it was really going on. Yes I believe that with the net, cell phones and amatuer news sources more attention would be given.
As far as "O and most seemed to be as broke as the day they started ,god knows why???????????" I believe it is a combination of several factors; a cut in the amount of time we work, lack of benefits (so we pick up the slack),not enough money or raises compared to other industry and the outrageous amount of money many of us were forced to pay out while traveling for years (I can remember paying 800.00 or more a month in rent as far back as the mid 80's).
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If we can't make money doing it this way ourselves, how would we expect any other company to do so?
ware have i herd this before? wotinell wuz the name of the group back ina 70s day da had ccnpp 'n a cupla (maybe) udder plants fer themselves? weren't no company, simply an affliation of hp techs.
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Dat be the Co-Op's!
Basiclly everybody involved is an equal partner, an employee owned business! That couldn't happen today, or could it?
RG
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Dat be the Co-Op's!
Basiclly everybody involved is an equal partner, an employee owned business! That couldn't happen today, or could it?
RG
The pay for the CoOp was very good for its day but in practice only a few did the work for the group and the rest were just along for the ride. In an odd way it was a union as we acted as our own barganing unit but signed individual contracts. A few of us went to the same outage afterwards to try and keep it alive but you need participation of all of your members to make a go. Independence is a hallmark of the roadtech this makes unions or Co-Ops difficult.
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Dat be the Co-Op's!
Basiclly everybody involved is an equal partner, an employee owned business! That couldn't happen today, or could it?
RG
:-[ I'm disappointed RG I expected more from you...
Oh well,,,,,
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Hmmmm, sounds like the IBEW may be able to help!
JJ
No offense, but, no thanks. They extorted enough money from me in the past.
(when I was a contractor)
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...IBEW...JJordan where were you last time?,,,a few self serving individuals what are you talking about....you know as well s I do a union for Rent-a-techs wont work, because we are all too individual,,,we cant organize,,think about it..on a job..you have 2 techs on the job,,3 in, 3 out..you do it your way, your 3 hours, I do it my way my 3 hours,,,day shift comes in they do it one way for 3 hours then a different way the next 3 hours,,,did I loose anybody here.....we cant agree on anything...the union didnt work....SCE&G voted in a union a few years ago, only to vote it out within 1 year...Spanky,did I get off subject?....improvements..I like the deal at,, was it San onofree(spelling)..where they cut out the companys all together and paid us as individual contractors, that didnt last either...the only thing in this business that has lasted, is we dont and will never agree on many things,,and BARTLETT,,he was there at the start,,and he is still here..he has the work, he has the benefits, he sets the rules, play by them or get out..thats it..Spanky you got something started here..and got me started...I worked for Bartlett at SGRP in 94 as ALARA..he treated me well..havent worked for him since or prior to that...only because it wasnt necessary..but this isnt about BARTLETT is it,,,,improvements...Cash perdiem, rent-a-cars, double time on sunday at union plants..oh I just slipped back to the 80's, we had that..with RAD, and we complained about it......red
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Hmmm, I've seemed to have whacked the proverbial Hornets nest. Lets see I I can help you all, try to pull together for once. You all have to stop being individuals, and learn to work together. The man knows you have difficulties so he keeps you at each other. Col Angus. How much money have you given the IBEW directly. I haven't given them anything. They've given me plenty. Finacially, and information, and education. They don't advocate striking, that is a last resort. That's why I said we were misguided the last time. We walked out the first thing, never negotiated squat. Where was I? I was at Davis Besse, with Don Feddern as site coordinator working for Bartlett. Oh and I was the shop steward. It was a union contract. Shovelhead, I have nothing but praise for Mr. Bartlett, I went through some really bad times with him. He was great the entire time. He doesn't dictate the amount that the utility pays, It's all bid on, and most of the time, low man wins the right to take a percentage of the money you make. If we all work together, and get something going here, the same percentage of a higher amount means more money for any, or all of the contract companies. It won't cost them any extra to do this, so why fight it? The utilities will have to pony up the extra money. You are about to see some bidding wars start, best pay staffs first and best. Not enough techs to go around! Oh by the way, I don't know how involoved Bruce is anymore, but it's nowhere near the same level as before. He sold part of his share. If he was still in 100% he would have had ALL of the contracts, he was the MAN. SCG&E will vote the IBEW in the next time, trust me. Lots of unfullfilled promises. It can be done but it ain't going to be easy. :-[
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GWB, No problem, everyone's entitled to his or her opinion. Why don't you feel that a union would be beneficial? Just Curious. I think that a union could do a lot of good things for us!
JJ ;)
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..JJ..sounds like you know more than I do..and I am the first to admit it, I never worked a union job until 1985....and if a union is run for the right reasons,,,the worker,,,it is good....had I been born, or worked union jobs, I would be union,,,,since 1991 I have either worked as a supervisor, ALARA or for a refueling company, no union tie...thank you for the information....I am sometimes uninformed, misinformed and always deformed...so again your knowledge about unions was appreciated on my part,,,,red
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this seems to have taken a "union - pro or con" sideroad, so let me say, I'm not a union man....never was - never will be. but we need to accept that we can get together, organize and cooperate, or we can let the utilities and the contract companies give us "do it our way or get out" packages. The contract world is very competative and in order to get contracts a company has to bid low and that means cutting 'production' costs. Since we are the product, they have to market us more cheaply....and we all know what that means. The only option is if we get together and agree not to work for less than XYZ. Good luck wi'dat.
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A union is a bargaining agent. The last attempt to unionize was done badly from the stand point of the Union and the stand point of the techs. The last attempt to organization was supported by 5 or 6 agents from the IBEW national office with requested help from the locals with mixed results. On the tech side there was little organization and it seemed as though there was no concept of the level of commitment that was required. In addition even though the IBEW had locals that organized in house technicians its first draft of a proposed contract included provisions on workers tools, breaks, and other blue collar issues that did not fit well into what I would consider a technicians job description. The strike itself was for recognition of the union, only the first step. Many cards of intent were signed by technicians to show commitment and the ratio of the workforce that supported it, not an easy thing for a national union with no locals (IBEW1500). The support on the lines did not match the number of cards signed, apparently it was easier to sign a piece of paper than to stand up when needed. I heard from a number of craft who did not cross the lines and were very disappointed in the outcome and said that they would not support a future effort losing more income. In most sites there was no support at all from other unions.
If you want a union you have to:
Organize
Everyone should be on the same page, this would require a leadership with a clear vision of what needs to be done and the realities of the making it happen.
Plan in advance
You need to know what your resources are and how they will be used and communicate to everyone involved.
Provide a benefit to the employer
Why should the contract companies even talk to you, they are at this time your bargaining agent and your employer. What sacrifices or guarantees are you willing to make to provide a service that is worth dealing with a union. (At one plant while working in Outage Management the union was a mixed blessing as we could take credit for the apprentice programs on worker qualifications and the union agreed to allow those with current plant qualifications to move to the head of the line, however the labor cost was the largest part of the project budget.)
I don't see this happening. Sorry to be pessimistic but these do not seem like things that a lot of independent thinking road techs would be willing to do.
"Of course that is just my opinion, I could be wrong"
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Since we are the product, they have to market us more cheaply....and we all know what that means. The only option is if we get together and agree not to work for less than XYZ. Good luck wi'dat.
what jjordan said...the same percentage of a higher amount means more money for any... 'n wit a union, a union plant must take the most competitive bid of union companies. that is language in their contracts with their own peeple. which is why at a lot of union plants you must join a union. your joining satifies the language of the contracts that are in force. iffen there was a contract nukeworker company that was union, it would have the inside track on the bidding, it would have to be competitive with itself and the utility's rates. it would not have to be very competitive with the other companies in the bidding.
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'n wit a union, a union plant must take the most competitive bid of union companies. that is language in their contracts with their own peeple. which is why at a lot of union plants you must join a union. your joining satifies the language of the contracts that are in force. iffen there was a contract nukeworker company that was union, it would have the inside track on the bidding, it would have to be competitive with itself and the utility's rates. it would not have to be very competitive with the other companies in the bidding.
Not true here at ole VY - house are union, contractors aren't - and there is no clause in the contract that even encourages it that I'm aware of....This is an "open shop" state, but we do have a "closed shop" clause in the contract for VY folks. Just no restrictions on contractors.
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Naw I don't think so. It would bring lots of improvements (healthcare, pension, training, and so much more!) that's what the topic is or was! :P
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After watching Cool Hand Luke last night all I have to say about the Union representing us is "I think we have a failure to communicate here".
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Too many individuals, difficult to organize. Would be the "cats meow" if it could be done, I just don't think it will ever happen. Great if it does.
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Not true here at ole VY - house are union, contractors aren't - and there is no clause in the contract that even encourages it that I'm aware of....This is an "open shop" state, but we do have a "closed shop" clause in the contract for VY folks. Just no restrictions on contractors.
mebbe, but lotsa udder contracts are worded different, for da benifit of da unions.
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having been thru the previous strike and given the current international security environment i greatly fear the possibility of an outcome resembling that of the air traffic controller strike of 1984...
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having been thru the previous strike and given the current international security environment i greatly fear the possibility of an outcome resembling that of the air traffic controller strike of 1984...
I think you mean 1981...I have worked with several of the "Class of '81" in my current job field.
However, I think you are on to something here. Right now the debate seems confined to 1. how many pounds of flesh techs COULD get out of that big ol' utility, and 2. whether a certain union can get it for them.
That strategy works for a while, and I'm sure there are quite a few Ford vehicle painters and upholstery installers with a boat in the driveway that did pretty well with it. But it is not sustainable as a business strategy, either for the employer or the unions. Either the labor productivity has to increase as much or greater than the benefit rise sought, and/or company profits greater than benefits cost, or exclude/minimize competition that has a relative advantage of either. As Akio Morita, founder of Sony, said it best: Business is war.
In this union debate context, we need to show the employer the added value of using the union labor for best results for least time or money resource expended. If we only chase the angle of getting MORE out of the customer, it is no secret that they can get Health Physicists with Masters degrees from several different countries with plant experience, who would would gladly live 3 to a trailer working 7/12s for 1/2 your pay. Not fair....I agree, but currently, "fair" gets defined by lobbyists in 3000 dollar suits telling fibs to Congressmen with 200 dollar hairdos.
Do I think that a rad tech union could benefit in working against this? Heck yes...I am currently a shop steward where I work, and have joined as a dues payer in every shop/job where a union is offered. But the prospect of success is low, when we bargain as if this is 1950s America Uberalles-swimming in cash, and your union benefits are a small invisible part of huge profit margins. This is the 21st century, The Man will go above or around you. Google the Goodyear strike in progress.
What we need is a national bargaining representative working on the other issues mentioned above: Minimize/justify why in a post-911 America foreign techs are needed, and is sufficient background done , union should provide/sponsor training courses so that any duespayer can start as a deconner and become 3.1 with documented classroom/hands-on training, grievance/Unfair Labor Practice representation (big bonus bucks dont help if you are escorted offsite with an adverse PADS entry, never able to Red Badge again, wouldn't you at least like some due process there?). I didn't forget healthcare...who better would have the advantage of a large group plan, a handful of freelance radtechs...or techs under the umbrella of a national union?
But the ball is in our court...what value would we add to the customer as a union workforce?
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thankyou for the correction...1981 air traffic controller strike...
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well...the bottom line is that :
1- it takes "x" amount of $$ to make company "A" run & turn a profit.
2- So,there IS more money available.
Direct hire rent-a- techs make more per hr. than say Alantic group pays..IE Diablo, Columbia..
Again, there is more money in the pipe line, just a matter of where it goes..
Could a union negotiate a higher wage ...possibly..Bartlett does "deal" with Unions...Clinton for example..Their wages have consistently been higher because of the union + extras like shift differential.
So the union "idea" has been put in to action somewhat....the obvious is that there is no representation..but the wages are higher, well IMO where they should be/have been.
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it was dangerous then...it's dangerous now...
but then again....so was the american declaration of independence...
and who among us will step forward as george washington...
read McCullough's 1776...
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this dog won't hunt either,...... ::)
It won't hunt because nobody wants to take the time or the effort to train, and teach it to! :'( If everything worth having, came easy, then we all would be rich! (espeacially the HP's) :'(
JJ
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Exactly. Somebody somewhere figured out how to make representation work once...
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I
What we need is a national bargaining representative working on the other issues mentioned above: Minimize/justify why in a post-911 America foreign techs are needed, and is sufficient background done , union should provide/sponsor training courses so that any duespayer can start as a deconner and become 3.1 with documented classroom/hands-on training, grievance/Unfair Labor Practice representation (big bonus bucks dont help if you are escorted offsite with an adverse PADS entry, never able to Red Badge again, wouldn't you at least like some due process there?). I didn't forget healthcare...who better would have the advantage of a large group plan, a handful of freelance radtechs...or techs under the umbrella of a national union?
this is da nut of the arguement. 'n it comes down to what this country really stands for, which is to not ask what can be done for you, but what you can do. iffen some of these points started getting put into play, then the other issues such as pay would follow.
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Okay . . . I'll throw in my two-cents worth on this issue. Over the past 30+ years in this industry, I've worked both union and non-union and I've been part of management. I resisted the move to unionize back in the late 70's for a number of reasons. A lot of the techs I was working around back then at Millstone came into this business while they were on strike at General Dynamics. That didn't bode well, IMO. Also, I feared that the people that attempted to make life miserable back then would end up in the heirarchy of the union taking their favoritism and other undesirable (IMO) attitudes with them. I was not a supporter of a union for road techs back and I'm still not.
Union protectionism is a two-edged sword. It might provide higher pay for all, but I've also seen it protect techs that didn't deserve their paychecks. Will this come back to haunt us in the future? I don't know, but I'm perfectly capable of giving myself my own black eyes without inheriting them from other techs.
Another point to consider is that we (HP/RP Techs) are not production oriented. We are considered to be more of an over-sight group such as Safety. We don't turn the valves, move the rods or rebuild the pumps. The only factor most plants have to play with in controlling their own spending is the cost of their staffing. The plant and fuel costs are pretty much fixed. That's what all the "down sizing" and "right sizing" stuff was all about in the 80's and 90's. If we price ourselves too high, then rad safety will be rolled into the other generic safety issues that each plant employee is responsible for. That's been attempted before by INPO and will be done again in order to protect the bottom line for each plant. The logical consequence to this will be fewer techs working in over-sight positions during shorter outages.
Most plant union contracts are agreements between that local utility and the local union group. Those contracts take into account a lot of factors that a "national union" such as that being proposed would not and could not address. Well, I suppose it could but each site would have its own codicils to the contract. Also, each of those local contracts are between the work force as a whole and the plant. At best, there might be a separate contract for the workers and the clerical staff. We would come in with a separate contract just for contractor HP Techs. That probably wouldn't bode well with the locals unless, once again, there were codicils to our national contract that would keep it in agreement with their local contracts.
Unite? By all means. Don't go to the lower paying plants. I've noticed that when a plant has trouble staffing, the pay rates tend to go up until an acceptable staffing level is reached.
In my humble opinion, a new national contract would not be any more successful now than it has been in the past (read through the statements in this thread). There are a handful of people out there I might trust to pull it off, but I have no idea who would or could ride herd on all of us roadies to keep us in line.
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Do rad techs in Canada or Europe have unions?
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I've always thought pick a couple of plants say 2 or 3 that nobody and I mean nobody sumits to.This would be a good forum to pick the plants.There is still plenty of work out there if nobody goes to those plants.Then they will pump up the wages because they are desprate.Look at what happened to wolf creek,they only had 10 techs go there.Then the money and diem went thru the roof then they staffed.The other plants may take notice of this and not want the same to happen to them in the future.Then the wages may go up with out unionizzzzzing
What do you think of this idea everybody???
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http://www.nukeworker.com/maps/polls.php
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but I've also seen it protect techs that didn't deserve their paychecks.
lol!!! like dis stuff don't go awn ina recruiting offices, staffing offices, 'n thru aught da good ole boyz network. roflmao!!! iffen we deal wit it ebbery day as iz, whatz da diff?
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The rent-a-tech business hardly seems like it is a postive working model(except for batlett).........How about first a real working graduated pay scale/training model for junior Hp's, why do juniors have to go to 5 years of outages at the same payrate, why not every 500 or 1000hrs a pay rate bump up( it can't be that hard if Bartlett can micro manage their hours on the resume). Why would I be so concerned for a junior hp graduated pay scale? may be it would extend to senior hp's! to think that pay would go up with experience........(what an outdated idea.......)
Next.......how about some union clout (bartlett has none) to persuade the utilties to stop stacking the outages in a six week time period........
then.......how about some benefits.........(I would have to be kidding myself)
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thats like asking why it cost Jrs less per diem to live on, when jrs made less per diem...(that was NOT part of the wage BTW)
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iffen a jhpt wansta make more moola, he shud take spanish 'n be a transalor. aughta be wurth a doller 'n our moor.
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justify why in a post-911 America foreign techs are needed
that's easy....they can't get enough American Techs to work for the money they're offering and the treatment they're giving. The people doing the staffing will tell you there aren't enough techs in d'bidness these days, but I guess they've never seen a supply and demand curve.
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Do rad techs in Canada or Europe have unions?
It has been a few years, but the RP's in Canada were union. They didn't have actual RP Tchnicians as we think of them until recently. The "Health Physics" Techs. were union too. There were about three of them on the eight-unit site. They didn't do job coverage or surveys.
Operators did routine surveys.
HPT's did highly technical stuff like shipping of high-level waste, calibrating sources, etc.
Instruments were calibrated and maintained by electricians and instrument techs.
Decon was done by "Civil Maintenance" who also cleaned the toilets, took out the trash, cleaned the intake screens, etc.
Anyone who had a yellow or green square on his TLD did his own surveys & job coverage. The "techs" wouldn't even ask you why you were there if you had your own meter. If you weren't on the crew they were covering, you were none of their business.
All these people belonged to the Power Workers' Union if they were "house" or the building trades unions if they were contractors.
Job coverage and job surveys were done by "Green Men" who were people of all trades who were trained in RP procedures. If Boilermakers, Electricians, Millwrights, and Pipefitters were all working in one area, they might have had one Green Man for each trade. On large projects, this was handled by clumping all the green men from various trades into a single RP department that was similar to ours. These people (except the Americans) were members of their respective unions and were paid the scale for their individual trades at the foreman's rate. (I once worked there as a contractor removing broken fuel pencils from the pool. The "techs" who covered me would have been union Millwrights - except that I was self-monitor qualified and got no coverage).
On smaller projects, they would just pick one of the guys who had a green badge, upgrade him to foreman's pay for the shift, and have him do the coverage.
Since then, they have been hiring a bunch of contingent workers as techs to cover outages. They are all PWU members as I am told.
Managers belong to a union called "The Society". Some of the supervisors actually belonged to both the Society and their own trade unions at the same time.
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Being neither pro or anti-union, I only see one real solution to the debate. The individual locals will have to include contractor's in their contracts with the national union maintaining benefits for monthly dues when away from the local. Some plants already require union dues from the contractor's in return for certain wages (i.e. Clinton). Until the individual locals or the national IBEW or other unions decide to get involved, things will continue as they are. It has been said on this site many times. Don't accept jobs to the lower paying plants and then compalin about the wages and treatment. Just my two cents.
Keith
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IF you want to be Union go house.
any one know what IBEW stand for?
I Block Every Walk way.
an do any of you know what a Flea is? IBEW has them.
heck even some sites the eng have a Union . and They are house.
take the money you would give the union and buy a shares in Enron. ha ha.
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that's easy....they can't get enough American Techs to work for the money they're offering and the treatment they're giving. The people doing the staffing will tell you there aren't enough techs in d'bidness these days, but I guess they've never seen a supply and demand curve.
same arguements used to justify da illegals in agriculture, horticulture, painting, construction, etcetera. it seems to be working everywhere in this country. iffen we gits rid of illegals, wages rise 'n americans work. when alla citizens are working, den da wages rise to entice workers to use der brains 'n git them up the income ladder. since we are in a "pass thru" service industry, it only makes sense to start it here. iffen wages fer a seasoned shpt went to $33/hr 'n peedee for da region, betcha lotsa peeple would git back into da biz. which wood open up da bartending slots. 'n git da lawncare workers behind the bar insted of in front of it. etcetera.
'n eye ain't slamming barhelp. a good tarbender in a decent place will pocket a cupla hundy a day. which is about $33/hr. but da health care is a killer for dem, so they'll come back fer da bennies. witch alot of posts here say dat are unappreciated.
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exactly who is "nobody"?
which dog won't hunt?
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same arguements used to justify da illegals in agriculture, horticulture, painting, construction, etcetera. it seems to be working everywhere in this country. iffen we gits rid of illegals, wages rise 'n americans work. ...... da bennies. witch alot of posts here say dat are unappreciated.
I didn't mean to imply that any of the Euro-Techs were illegal. All of them I worked with were great people and there wasn't one that didn't meet any reasonable standards of competence or professional conduct, but I do have a problem with them being brought in to keep our wages down.
As for the bennies, you've gotta mean 4-6 months' vacation/year.....that's the only one I get. ;)
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I didn't mean to imply that any of the Euro-Techs were illegal. All of them I worked with were great people and there wasn't one that didn't meet any reasonable standards of competence or professional conduct, but I do have a problem with them being brought in to keep our wages down.
As for the bennies, you've gotta mean 4-6 months' vacation/year.....that's the only one I get. ;)
eye wuzant taking da euro-techs were illegal, itz just da same arguement even iffen it is for legals in this case. 'n they keep da wages down, as due da illegals. which is watt i meant by "same arguement".
'n da bennies... well, that's my arguement too. thanks, 'n a tip of da karma kap two yinz.
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So, you would also have a problem when we go over to say, Europe and work?
Is it "fair" to lower US rad tech salaries and have hundreds of rad tech positions at risk, just to benefit a handful of overseas traveling techs and reciprocity agreements for a couple bodyshops?
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The real dog is, or are, the rent a tech HP's. Which I used to be, and may soon become one again. The reason they bring in HP's from other countries is because, they can't fully staff the outages. The utilities are the culprits here. This is why you need a union. Note I didn't say "we", because I don't have a dog in this fight, I just offered to help get a movement going. I participated in the ill fated past organization effort also, and I understand the pain. I went to several meetings at BV, and Radbastard was there also. I know it wasn't handled properly as i said before. First, the IBEW doesn't advise you to strike, this is a last resort, not the first option. I don't even believe we had a hearing with the NLRB, wich we should have. This effort was missguided from the start. Contract technicians desperatly need a union. More so than house techs. If I fail an FFD, I get a second chance. How many do you get? If I get in any kind of trouble, I get a letter in my file. You hear "And the contractor was released", never to return, and it may just well impact your employment elsewhere in the industry. Think about it. I know I need a union, you do too! If you think you are irreplaceable, go stick your hand in a 5 gallon bucket of water, then pull it out and tell me what kind of void you created! The utilities will replace you one by one, for as little investment as possible. They have been doing it for years already. That's smart business, There is strenghth innumbers, band together! I read it on a post here, business is "war". Do you want to be a causualty or a survivor? I make at least $10.00/ hr more than a contractor, I have a pension, a better 401K, subsidized health care, I work steady all year long, have paid vacation, 13 paid holidays,and sleep in my own bed, if I ain't in any trouble at home! Why should you work for any less? I've always contended that it's harder beeing a rentatech, because you have to be very quick and versitle. For that you should be compensated. I left the rentatech ranks for a lot of thoose reasons, but everyone can't go house. The utilities are trying to do with fewer of us too. War, remember? It's time to lick your wounds, pick up the banner, and do it right this time! If you don't, come to one of the outages, and sit in the sustandard break room, and cry and whine about how bad you have it! Some of us house techs will break bad on you, get you laid off early (3 weeks instead of 4 like you were promised) Because we can and will! Trust me, I'm from the utility, and it pays me to finish the outage early and under budget! Oh I guess I forgot to mention that. We get incentive bonuses for all of that! What was it that you get? Laid off. I still remember, and hate it for you. I'm trying to help. 8)
Love you guys,
JJ :-*
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So, you would also have a problem when we go over to say, Europe and work?
are we being blamed for supressing there wages? iffen so, den we shood stay home, leesen the suppression of their wages nets in an increase of our wages. then, since biz is war, plunder is legal. butt, whatcha gonna due, i don't half a problem wit legal workers in our country. if they're bean blamed for low wages, then it is that same argument as the illegals. but, at least da legals are doing it rite, 'n i due knot take issue.
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are we being blamed for supressing there wages? iffen so, den we shood stay home, leesen the suppression of their wages nets in an increase of our wages.
naaah, that dog won't hunt ;)
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Getting off topic a little bit here. Foreign techs don't suppress the wages, utilities do. Do you think that they would go through the extra security hassle if there were plenty of american techs available? They won't raise the rates until they exhaust all of the other lower priced options. The topic is the benefit of a union, somehow we got off onto illeagle aliens and huntin dawgs!
JJ :-\
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Well said, JJordan. While I agree with the contents of your post, I also assume that all the roadies know these points. Well, I can only speak for myself in that regard, but I know all your points and I have chosen to be a roadie versus a house tech (having been a house tech in the past). I voluntarily surrendered all those lovely perks (rotating shift work, capricious managerial decisions, etc.) for a life on the road where I get to take 4 to 6 months off each year to spend with my children and grandchildren. I felt differently when I was still raising a family. I wanted to be home every day back then. To be honest, that was my only reason for becoming a house tech. Once they were grown and off on their own, I recaptured my freedom and went back on the road. Would I like all the protectionism that is built into the concept of a union? Most certainly. However, I also remember a decided lack of protection from the union, too. Being out here on the road is my choice. I have my own IRAs, health care, and insurance. It is my responsibility to take care of myself. So I choose the jobs I want knowing full well what to expect while I'm at that particular job (hours, scope of work, pay scale, duration, etc.). For those things I didn't expect, I adapt . . . and I remember for future reference.
I have noticed that, when I was a house tech, the job became my life. I still hear it in conversations amongst the house techs at various sites. Every little slight and/or perceived injustice seems to become a personal crusade because the "job" is so closely integrated into your "life". As a roadie, the "job" is separate and distinct from my "life". The job just pays for my life (travel, kids, etc.). I don't think I would want this job to achieve the same level of importance in my life that it did when I was a house tech.
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Chimera,
Thoose are some very valid points. I too as a contract HP enjoyed a lot of what you mentioned. There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to both sides. You have to make a choice and make it work for you. I used the creative unemployment as my paid vacation. I liked not getting drug into the political battles. Rotating shifts suck, but in outage as a contractor, you are usually either nights or days. I hate nights, but usually was stuck with them, both then and now. (maybe a union could make it more equitable) :P The measure of a good outage as a contractor was: I got through it, made some money, and they barely remember my name. Unfortunately being technician "A" several times, I would have liked to have had someone in my corner. The right of due process is the most important issue of all. When you have issues like theese, you find that your friends are no longer your friends. Everyone ducks their head and go into the survival mode! I managed to survive all of my ordeals, a lot of RPM's, and supervisors had to look for work. I don't beleive even though I survived, that the end result was fair and or equitable. I feel that if a union was involved, that a lot of injustices could be prevented or at least lessened to a certain extent. if you are cleared of all charges, and then released prematurely, never to return. is this fair? It's against the law, but it happens almost everytime a contractor is involved in any incadent. Nothing is ever written down, but everyone still remembers. There will be some people reading this remembering very painfull times. All of you contractors, need to keep your head down, and pray this never happens to you! You need to do this daily, because every time you go past that line and do any work, you are at risk. You can be fired, fined and imprisoned, if the people involved choose to "do" you, in order to save their own skin, and job. The playing field is heavily slanted toward the house side hear. One of the reasons they hire contractors, is for legal liabilities. It also gives them an out. "The contractor was released" usually appeases all of the parties concerned, except for the poor victim which may someday be YOU! :'(
Think about it!
JJ
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I gotta ask. Are you actually in a union now? Or petitioning for one. You paint a much rosier picture of the IBEW than the one I know.....
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......JJordan, you spew a large crock of crap..........when have you ever heard of, seen or been involved in a technician being fined or imprisoned for anything?, fired yes...but the rest of that is junk..........and how about this union that gets you on days when you want it..sometimes you just have to work nights,,,house or RAT....... this is not a perfect world we live in..at the nuclear plant or at home....I agree a union can help the workers, that is what they are for.....but they do not make a perfect situation, as you are trying to get some of these techs to believe....we have worked in this business as long, or longer than you have...we have worked house, contract, DOE, DOD, EPA....union and non-union work...and some of us agree with some of what you say,,,,BUT YOU ARE RUNNING A DEAD HORSE IN THE GROUND.....I enjoy a good argument, and have started a few myself, just to see how they go....and I think I need to start a new one here........btw, do you have brown eyes?........red
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...I left something out...this technician A thing....if you were involved in a situation that put you in that technician A seat....then evidently you let something get by you.....you may need a union to save yourself......I myself, have never been in that seat...maybe it was luck, maybe it was the prayer, maybe its because I was DOING MY JOB........but I dont think I need a union, because I am afraid of losing my job, because I radio'd a survey..maybe didnt do an air sample....missed a couple smears I/S the valve they were opening...had my meter on the wrong scale........do your job, self check yourself....make the deal, you want financially at the beginning of the outage, always have a backup plan...draw Mass unemployment...dont overextend yourself at the bank....and enjoy every summer and winter 7 days a week at least 26 weeks a year at home....not worrying about security, rent a techs, unions , breakrooms or arguing with some one you dont even know who they are......what do you think...AMERICA???????????
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Chimera,
Thoose are some very valid points. I too as a contract HP enjoyed a lot of what you mentioned. There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to both sides. You have to make a choice and make it work for you. I used the creative unemployment as my paid vacation. I liked not getting drug into the political battles. Rotating shifts suck, but in outage as a contractor, you are usually either nights or days. I hate nights, but usually was stuck with them, both then and now. (maybe a union could make it more equitable) :P The measure of a good outage as a contractor was: I got through it, made some money, and they barely remember my name. Unfortunately being technician "A" several times, I would have liked to have had someone in my corner. The right of due process is the most important issue of all. When you have issues like theese, you find that your friends are no longer your friends. Everyone ducks their head and go into the survival mode! I managed to survive all of my ordeals, a lot of RPM's, and supervisors had to look for work. I don't beleive even though I survived, that the end result was fair and or equitable. I feel that if a union was involved, that a lot of injustices could be prevented or at least lessened to a certain extent. if you are cleared of all charges, and then released prematurely, never to return. is this fair? It's against the law, but it happens almost everytime a contractor is involved in any incadent. Nothing is ever written down, but everyone still remembers. There will be some people reading this remembering very painfull times. All of you contractors, need to keep your head down, and pray this never happens to you! You need to do this daily, because every time you go past that line and do any work, you are at risk. You can be fired, fined and imprisoned, if the people involved choose to "do" you, in order to save their own skin, and job. The playing field is heavily slanted toward the house side hear. One of the reasons they hire contractors, is for legal liabilities. It also gives them an out. "The contractor was released" usually appeases all of the parties concerned, except for the poor victim which may someday be YOU! :'(
Think about it!
JJ
well...it seems that YOUR story is becoming more clear from the above statement.
If you're happy about the situation you're in, great. Glad for you.Sounds like you need to be in a union tho.
But not everyone shares your views on the Union issue...& i doubt you could speak for everyone...& it sounds a little "preachy".
I am a union House Tech....I do enjoy the benefits union..but do i need "protection"?..prob not. I worked on the road for 14 yrs as a HP Tech & was never tech "A".
But how many times does a person reach the level of tech "A" before the realize that it might not just be circumstances or the utilities that are conspiring against them???
Just some food for thought.
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"tech a" ain't a title to be bandered about lightly. iffen yinz are doing watt yer told, 'n dune it within procedures, protocols, 'n regs when something goes south shud ya be two blame? yet peeps are. iffen engineers don't analyze every aspect 'n one that is overlooked is to blame, is it yer fault? yet da blame game goes on. 'n contractors are the wons at the end of the rope. like jjordan sez, everybuddy is turtleing n@ while "tech a" is saddling up. itza fact of life. butt, whacha gonna due?
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gotta agree. i've seen us road trash served up to appease the dieties many times when the actual screw-up was courtesy of a house tech, supv, eng or whathaveyou. i actually saw a tech get fired because the GE people he was covering wouldn't leave the work site when the RPM ordered an evacuation.
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Shovelhead,
It seems that you are attacking me and not the issue. I am in a union currently. Not the IBEW, but it's a good union as well. Lets see, I was initiated into this union in 1975. This union got me my first nuclear job shortly thereafter. I never said the union would get you whatever you wanted. I said maybe they would make it a little bit more equitable. That would mean: maybe you get what you want about half of the time, instead of hardly ever! ::) As far as techs getting fined or imprisoned, I don't know if it has ever happened It is a fact that it can! If it is determined that you did something willfully, this will become a very real probability. There are some people at Davis Besse that have learned this the hard way. They just weren't HP's. Plenty of HP's have been fired though, some justly and some not. As I said I was cleared of any and all wrongdoing, Some of the management I worked for were not. The utilities were fined, and as I said before the contracor was released, even though he did nothing wrong. As a matter of fact, he was complimented for doing everything correctly. Technician "A" is not a title you ask for, or wear with pride. It just happens when you least expect it. Sometimes in a matter of seconds! If you cover a lot of the higher risk evolutions, the probabilities increase. Even if you do something of minor signifigance, say sitting at the exit, there is still a chance. Say you miss something on a release survey, and someone else finds it somewhere. Not one of my scennarios, but I've seen that happen. It is not a perfect world, and not all unions are managed efficently. There are some bad ones out there, but that would be the members fault, not the IBEW's or whoever charters it. If things aren't working, you vote to change it. It's a democracy, just like the federal government. Majority rules! I don't need a union, remember, I survived!!! I want a union! Because things are not perfect, and management will have to listen to the majority. Try and get something changed by yourself. My eyes are Blue, Red, I may be full of it, but it doesn't show!
JJ
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JJ is right a Union will stand up for you in case something does goes astray. Its easier to fire a contractor than a house person and a union would at least give you some kind of support. And the only way you cant make a mistake in this business is your either NRC or you havent done anything. Knowing JJ he is a hard and cautious worker but when your in the trenches back in the old days you were on your own and things did happen. Happy New Year everyone
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Thanks BB,
I try to do as good a job as I can, and like you said everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes someone elses mistake elsewhere in the plant impacts you, and you aren't the least bit prepared for changing conditions. See how fast you can get to the door when OP's changes a lineup without telling anyone! that's happened to me more than once! Because i've been technician "A" dosen't make me a bad tech. In fact I learned more from thoose experiences then you would in several years of routine HP coverage. I hope none of you have to go through any of this though. It's not the least bit enjoyable. I'm currently a house tech, and I've watched some of my fellow techs get tagged as Tech "A" . What I'm trying to tell all of the rentatechs is: if the exact same scennario happens to one of you. you will be looking for work before you know it without due process! The utilities always take the cheap and easy way out, and that is to blame and fire you, and not too many people I know will stand up and say "Hey it was my fault , not his" a union won't stop this, but it will give you some resources and allies that, believe you me. You will both want and need. Becuase it's you against the world. currently you have nothing. Oh and the tarnished reputation to boot. Makes it hard to secure future employment. See it's such a small industry, everyone talks. Not everyone gets the facts straight. HP's if they don't know, may embelish it a little bit, and the next one a little bit more. Until it's entirely out of context. Sounds better in the break room. If there is only a few contract companies. What are your alternatives if you get on a list or two? Think About That too!
JJ
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Just from the discussion here, getting everyone to back a union appears to be futile, but credit should go to jjordan for his efforts. Universal support for a tech union would be nearly impossible, even though it would be in everyone's best interests in the longterm as far as job security, wages and uniform conditions go. There always going to be those of us who see a need to cross the "line".
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there isn't really any knead to cross a line. there is no line. there is discussion as to whether a union would be a bonifide benefit to the working road tech. several aspects have been discussed 'n usually dissed. funny, lots of these items that are dissed are the same ones that peeps are beaching about on other threads. go figger. btw, when yer discussing tech a situations 'n comparing them to what you git yerself into, look to see what lawyer you have in yer pocket. a common civil or criminal lawyer is going to get steamrollered by utility and government legal beagles. make sure yer lawyer is well versed in labor law and has a special aptitude for things nuclear.
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Very Very good point Sloglow!!! As tech "A" I had the pleasure of meeting a lawyer that represented the utilities. he was absolutley the most intelligent individual I ever crossed paths with. He asked all of the right questions, hit on issues that the regulatory investigators missed. When he asked me questions, I didn't know how much health physics background this fellow had, so I asked if I needed to simplify it. He said no, just tell me like you would talk to a coworker. Well no offense intended here, but ya'll aint nowhere near this smart. He could have pased the CHP exam. If he wanted to practice criminal law, he could've gotten a conviction on OJ too! This is who you may be up against, if you miss something, someone else sets you up (shift turnover, and such), or things just naturally turn to s__t! If you have a union, you happen to get free legal counsel, who are well versed in labor law. I've had the pleasure of working with the IBEW's attornies, and you would be very well represented, if the need were to arise. It doesn't cost you anything extra, it's covered by your dues. Which depending what level of participation you choose, is somewhere between $20 and $40 per month. The dues also cover lots of other things, like a pension, and preferential rehire if you are outplaced. I don't know how this would be structured for rentatechs, but I know I've left that much laying on the bar on more than one occasion! It's a bargain anyway you slice it! You still need to think about all of this too! 8)
JJ
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JJ
Now you are scaring me. I thought I had the HP road tech pension plan complete with the Brunswick Drywell bonus step included.
Seriously, the need is great for some organization, but therein lies the catch, migrant workers and organization don't seem to mix. Anyway thanks for your efforts and I hope to work with you again but I"m not on "the list" for this year. Hope you have a good outage.
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I didn't mean to imply that any of the Euro-Techs were illegal. All of them I worked with were great people and there wasn't one that didn't meet any reasonable standards of competence or professional conduct, but I do have a problem with them being brought in to keep our wages down.
As for the bennies, you've gotta mean 4-6 months' vacation/year.....that's the only one I get. ;)
I've tried to stay off this thread as long as possible. I've read some good points for both sides and some pretty "whacked" statements too - the above being one of them. I cant speak for any other vendor in this business, hell I really don’t have the authority to speak for Bartlett on this issue, so much for the last name, but I will speak on behalf of the Euro-Techs and other assorted foreign nationals that I have hired for various assignments over the past several years and why I've hired them. First off, and please don’t take offense because there is no offense intended, the idea that we bring in foreign nationals to "keep your wages down" has got to be one of the most misconstrued ideas I’ve ever heard. If anything it may help to drive your wages up. The foreign nationals, especially the Europeans, are considerably more expensive to bring in to the states than it is to hire an existing US HP Tech, or even drag one from the DOE, D&D or dirt jobs. The thing that your missing is that these guys (& girls) are still employed by their parent company back in Europe who happen to bill Bartlett for their services - in many cases what we get billed by them is more than what we can bill for them.
The reason we use foreign nationals is because we, and I say we as an industry, need to. Ever since de-regulation more and more techs get out of the business than get in. I'm sure some of you that have been around as long as or longer than I have been can remember the days that there were more techs than jobs. For those of you who have got into this business w/in the past 10 years I know that sounds strange but yes there once was a time that some techs ended up not working a season due to that there weren’t enough positions to accommodate everyone. Since the magic moment that de-regulation took effect, we've seen plants tighten the belt, thus leading to shorter outages & smaller crews. During the “dot.com" craze I watched as a very large chunk of the technician population bailed on the nuke industry to go make their money somewhere else. What that has left us with is an industry whose primary work force, you, is aging and dwindling at the same time.
We're trying to move as many people as possible along, but it takes time, as most of you will attest, to get them with the proper training and experience. Hell allot of the other threads on this site have some of you bashing our efforts on trying to get the DOE techs in on the outage circuit, or trying to make Decon techs into JHP's, etc.
At the same time as our clients are screaming get us more techs, you guys (& girls) are understandably screaming get us more work. So what do we do? We enter agreements with foreign companies hoping that we may be able to grow some international work so that, yes (A) we make more money, but (B) we have more to offer you. In order to get work over there we need to have work available over here for their techs, which due to the current nature of the industry we do.
So what can we do???
Bring in qualified, experienced foreign nationals.
Will we make money on them?
Probably not.
So why bring them in?
Because we have signed a contract, an obligation, to our clients that we will do whatever we can to ensure that we staff their sites with the best quality techs that we can get to fill their requested slots. Also, we may not have a contract but we do have the obligation to you, the techs, to find and secure as many employment opportunities as we can.
Ok Now that I've weighed in on the foreign national remark I'm outa here. I know I have not touched upon your union vs. non union debate, and truthfully i really never will other than to say 6 in one hand, half doz in the other. I've staffed both union and non union jobs - I've had both easy and hard times trying to staff both. I've seen real good Union jobs, I've seen even better non-union (go figure) - all i know is that there are pro's and con's to both sides. I'll let ya get back to your debate.
Eric Bartlett
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Eric your posts are always direct and honest on this board, Karma your way.
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So how many votes are you looking to get before we start see petitions around the country at sites? Also sorry for not reading the intire forum but what Union are you looking at going through? One last question, are you looking at an RP/HP Union as a whole or just for Outage workers?
I'm interested as well as many others from the workers I talk to, hope to see something happen.
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.."showmethemoney"...prior to replying to a post..I usually read up on the entire subject...so at least I will know what I am talking about...sometimes I make an A$$ out of myself...sometimes argue,,,sometimes bring out a good point or two...and this subject is near and dear to some of us,,,as we lost friendships that were decades old the last time a union for traveling techs was tried...I agree union work for house techs, works...but for travelers, it wont because we dont all live in the same area..I think the reason unions for welders, millwrights, electricians, works, is these workers are from the same town, city at least state...they have a local hall, train together, work as a team, break together..vacate together...ride their motorcycles together......not many HP's live in the same place,,except maybe Ocala, Fl.....I have worked union jobs, non union,,it doesnt matter to me...and this tech A thing,,I have never been in that situation..I have been fired, sent home, taken off a job,,,but I have never been afraid to stop a job, call a supervisor, document the problem,,follow a procedure,,ask a stupid question...or quit a job, because of a problem with management.....JJ, you have talked alot of pro-union, so tell me this....just how do we go about organizing,,the correct way, not like the last fiasco?....I am all for it, if it's done right...red
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Not impossible to organize, just impractical. Would take a sincere commitment from all, not just a few.
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It will be through the IBEW. The number of signed cards for us at Brunswick to ask to be represented was at least 30%, the IBEW would like 65-70% to insure a victory. They said that statistically some card signers chage their mind at voting time. The required number of votes to carry would be 50% and 1 vote. I don't know how you can determine how many eligible voters we have. The IBEW is interested in all of the contract HP's, but I see no reason to omit the deconners.They need a union too. There are a whole myrid of questions and issues to figure out. I'll be working on it and maybe some of the readers here will volunteer to help also. It's a big project. Whith the internet it will be a lot more effective than the last time.We have a VOC in our campaign. (Volunteer Organizing Comitee) I'm sure when the time comes they will ask for asistance. One way it can work, is like the construction craft do. When you work at a union site, you pay a fee to the host union, and abide by their contract, but not all sites are represented by the IBEW, so I don't know how this would work. I'm pretty sure the IBEW has been kicking around some different ideas. I don't think it will be a big issue for the contract companies, Bartlett already has a union shop. (Bartlett Sevices). The real resistance will come fromk the utilities themselves, but I don't know how much. I'll keep everybody posted with any new developements.
Thanks,
JJ ;)
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how are you going to decide who is going to get get top scale? why should I being a 27 year man in this field be paid the same as someone fresh off the boat? or out of some nuke school?
what are you going to do try and get bennys such as health and welfare ?how many hours a year do you need to make time to get health care for the year. what about lay offs how do you decide who go's 1st.and who stays.
Will this be like in 1990 walk out agin? (called it a strike) loose your jobs and go in to an other site that has walked out and take thier jobs like in 1990.]
it is not strike do to the fact it not a union .
and one more thought will bartlett sign a contract and will the others?
then it should come down to call the hall for an other tech they make more.
Who gets called out 1st why should I have to sit while the favs get to go to a job I wanted. is the union going to protect my rights to be called out 1st?
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This debate is really dead end. Look at the demographics of this web page and you can see that most are not pro-union based. (conservative republican voting). If given the chance most of the techs that read Nuke worker would vote in a non-union president. (W). Pro-union workers tend to vote democratic.
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wow....Dem Vs Rep...this is WAAAY of base now!
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Why do you not call the OCAW
Oil Chemical Atomic workers. at least they are with the words ATOMIC .
Let me ask one other thing if you do get signed in how will benifits affect Per diem . looks like that has to go.
Say you have a $65 an hour package why would they want to pay your diem as will as your health care and retirement fund.
the BM and Fitters and such do not get diem so why would an hp with a package?
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OCAW tried to organize road techs in the late 70's, IBEW would be a better choice. I still think that the nature of the job and the people will preclude a successful attempt to organize. Individuals will be called on to sacrifice for the whole, and all will have to speak and act as one. The resources to provide representation for a "national" local is going to take some deep pockets to start (IBEW), logistics of communication and voting will take a lot of work from union members (you). IBEW national did not show a lot of control of the HP locals in the last attempt, which will be needed to succeed. Who will define what a HP tech is, a 3.1 at one facility may not meet the requirements at another due to specific experience requirements. Should a plant the wants primarily BWR experience be forced to accept PWR experienced HP because they are closer to home? How is a grievance process going to work with the tech in question already at another facility or at home in another state? What benefit is there to the facilities to negotiate with a union? The downside is clear what will the union provide as a benefit, documented training, verification of resumes and experince, common manpower pool, or a database?
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not way off base- dead on center. there is no dem vs rep in the union issue. Unions back the democratic platform.
Ahh yes the OCAW i remember those days, Silkwood was OCAW. When we told Duke we didnt want IBEW but wanted OCAW, boy did we get the cold shoulder. I got shipped to environmental (since I was passing out cards-oh well).
With the IBEW, we didnt get much voice because the linemen ruled the roost there. But it was all good. We must remember that most of our exempt wages were based on union scale.
As far as call out, perdiam, etc these issues are well established and unions have methods to handle this.
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As far as call out, perdiam, etc these issues are well established and unions have methods to handle this.
So what are the methods?
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callout is based on senior most qualified. an updated callout list is maintained with OT hours and offered hours. hours offered and turned down are counted as hours worked on the list. thus the low hour person will rise to the top. you may be forced to show up in the event of low hours etc.
usually an apprentice may come in at the apprentice rate if the work is to qualify this person as journeyman; apprentice may work as jouneyman if qualified on that task.
perdiam is negociated and paid for by the company that requests a jouneyman to travel away from their home work site-in other words your assigned work station. the company usually pays perdiam not the union although it goes through the union to offer it equally.. and so on.
supervisor upgrade- usually paid at time and half, not professional rates. (normal rate or comp rates) your OT hours worked do not go on the call out list and when you return to the craft you may be low on the list. however if the union works more OT than you, you may drop down the list since technically you turned down the OT. (depends on the local agreement)
it goes on and on. take a class in union contract management-it really helps. a union contract is just as binding as the contract between you and your bank for your house loan. failure to follow the contract has legal ramifications and should be fully implemented by both parties- in other words the union has an obligation to provide a quality product. slackers should be dealt with by the union as well as management.
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Another big question never answered: who decides which tech gets asked for a particular job? When you have 2 plants down at the same time, one is a good plant to work at (i.e. Diablo Canyon) and the other is a plant that no one cares to go to due to low money, and high dose (i.e. Perry). Tech A is a continual returnee to the good plant and excellent tech and is asked for by the plant, Tech B has never worked there and is a so-so tech (face it there are techs out there no one cares for because of bad work ethic). Would one be limited by geography as to where one works? Or that they work alot? Should Tech A be penalized and not allowed to work at a plant they like because they are not "next on the list". I personally like the freedom to choose where I work and don't care for lists. Seems to me another layer to get my jobs, the contract companies are enough.
Also, not all 27 year techs are neccesarily better than the ones right out of school. I've seen too many long time techs who can pass tests, but can't provide good coverage. Just a 20 year observation.
Wages, and decent benefits are good. But I don't know if it is feasible in this day and age when so many places with union contracts have been giving up or drastically reducing health benefits because of cost.
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Come to think of it,a plant like Diablo wouldn't be a problem, they already hire people on as union employees. They hire their own people as temporary additionals and pay well.
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IM not sure but the plants might have to hire from the local union hall which might benifit the retired house techs who are still in the area who would also have seniority espicially if they were already a union plant. IM not sure of this but its just something to throw out there. Happy New Year everyone. Go Gators
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...half of those now involved in rp, permanent or temporary, will have left by 2010...given that, and all that it suggests, makes this topic moot...
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Hey Everyone,
GIVE IT A BREAK!! >:(
This has been going on since 1990. Nothing has been solved or will there.
It seems as if you are just talking to hear your self talk.
If there was the chance of a UNION don't you think a UNION would have already got involved and signed everyone up???
Why should they when a site cooridnator would work as a junior and all the other stories that you know about.
We are not talking about alot of people anymore. And to have someone get involved for people who may work 4-5 months a year, WHY??!!
I agree we should make as much as someone that gets $3000 a week to change light bulbs. But it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!
Just buy a lottery ticket. 8)
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jist two stik my neck out here, but iffen everybuddy that thought a union didn't have a chance wood git outa da conversation, maybe the ones who wood like to see a union move on the issue wood git a chance at that without having to deal with alla negativity.
re: what statisticals demograph which group.... ya better look at yer parking lot during election time. der's alot of republican candidates' bumper stickers on union vehicles. dats da workers opinions, not what da national committee says.
re: iffen a union wanted to represent workers woodent de already have signed everybuddy up.... duh, ya ain't signed; are ya feeling hurt 'n left out or are ya wanting to sign up? a union can't sign up those who don't sign a card. witch is why they want ~65% signed before they go to election.
re: 1990.... lots has changed, lots has been learned. yinz gonna live ina past or be in the now working for da future? 1990 was also da heyday of ffd purgement. obviously ya moved on from that, has yer pay?
re: alla da fine points of contractual work.... ain't this a tiny bit anal, considering there ain't no contract, proposed or in effect? yer beating a horse that ain't born yet.
re: da balance of da beacheen.... awwwww nebber mine.
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;D
SloGo
Sometimes, like this, you make sense :)
But I think many times you are still a dreamer. (not that there is anything wrong with that).
If it was in a unions benefit to sign us up, don't you think they would have been looking to find anyone who has ever been in the business to sign up?
We are still a group that will go where they don't want to etc etc to have a job. OK ya do what ya hafta do to support your family. That always comes first.
We have always been looked as "Support who has to do what they are told". and for the most part we do.
We are still looked at as a "necessary evil that we have to put up with".
That's just the way is has been and still is.
A guy once told me "he isn't here to work, but to get a check", I said hey you must be an HP. He proudly said Hell Yes.
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Oh so many issues and soooo much negativity. Ok first like SloGlow said, there isn't a contract yet, so all of the scennarios that I've read are a moot point. Theese are all possibilities after we, no change that to you win the right to negotiate collectively. That means all together as one. This will be no small feat, with some many different issues and concerns. Keep all of thoose ideas in your heads and propose your favorites when you attempt to draft a contract. Vote for the ones you like, agianst the ones you don't. As for a union recruiting you, like SloGlow said, you have to sign a card authorizing the IBEW to help you bargain collectively. They aren't going to twist your arm and force you, this is your choice. I just can't believe that anyone could be content and lay there and let them keep putting the boots to you. We are starting to staff our outage, and I feel really sorry for the rentatechs. It has gotten way worse than when I was doing it, and you all say "Thank You Sir, May I Have Another?" A lot of you blame Bartlett and Atlantic or some of the other head hunters. Go back and read Eric's post again, and read between the lines a little. He isn't supposed to say some of the things he posted. But again he said he's staffed both union and non union. So why would they all of a sudden have a problem with you if you win the right to organize? Why would Atlantic? I'm a former Knuckle dragger myself. My union card is in the construction craft, and if Atlantic had a contract at a union site, they would pay me union scale. I would be responsible for my travelers book, and dues, . I'd make money and Atlantic would make money. Where's the problem? This is America a capitalistic country, god bless the greedy! It is run on supply and demand. If you want it you have to pay. If there isn't any available, you have to pay way more. The utilities are the ones that are trying to do outages without you. You are the lifes blood of Bartlett and such. Without you working, Eric looses everything,. He wants you working, union or not! You've got to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run. You've got to get the cards signed first,. I'm going to help you here, and I don't even have a dawg in this fight! The movement isn't dead, only I think a few of the posters spirits are! Quit living in the 90's, Hell Al Gore invented the internet since then to help you better organize. Use it!
Love You Guys! :-*
JJ
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The movement isn't dead, only I think a few of the posters spirits are.Quit living in the 90's, JJ
He who forgets the past is condemned to repeat it. There are a lot of "Lessons Learned" from the first couple of attempts that need to be addressed and from the title of this thread I assumed that opposing opinions were welcome. I supported and stood on the picket line for the last one. If you are going try again you will have to address everyones questions and concerns, especially for those who went through the last attempt. If a little negative feedback on this site will deter you........
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He who forgets the past is condemned to repeat it. There are a lot of "Lessons Learned" from the first couple of attempts that need to be addressed and from the title of this thread I assumed that opposing opinions were welcome. I supported and stood on the picket line for the last one. If you are going try again you will have to address everyones questions and concerns, especially for those who went through the last attempt. If a little negative feedback on this site will deter you........
I haven't forgotten it! I was there also. I signed a card. I didn't walk, because I was at a union site, Davis Besse, it was a timing thing. If I would have been working with you , I would have been standing right beside you. I'll try and address everyones questions and concerns, but as I just stated, the contract doesn't exist. Maybe I can write up possible scennarios, to show how it could possibly work. But only if approved by the majority. What I learned from the last attempt is, you have to have the right people involved in the organizing campaign. I believe we were seriously misled by a few self serving individual, that maybe thought they could secure a high paying no load position with the union at our expense. I welcome everyones opinion, this is a forum. I hope I didn't come across that way. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I respect that. I can't quite understand it , but respect that! I promise that what happened last time won't happen this time. The IBEW doesn't reccomend strikes or work stopages. that's only as a last resort. We weren't even reccognized by the NLRB before they called for a walkout. That's why I think we were missled. We now have the power of the internet, to help us get information, coordinate, and communicate. It's going to be a lengthly process, so the sooner the better.
JJ 8)
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Yes, that would be a great open discussion. Sounds like the unions I've always known in the past.
I hate it for you George! :'( What union was that? Were you a member? Did you do anything to try and change it if you were a member? I welcome your comments and opinions!
Thanks,
JJ
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Just a little Point of Info here..... Our Nation's Constitution wasn't the first effort to organize this country. What if they had given up when the Articles of Confederation didn't work?
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Yes, that would be a great open discussion. Sounds like the unions I've always known in the past.
yeah, well der ain't no union, so it can't sound like that. i didn't rite that to cajole yinz inta ennything. i yam simply tired of hearing the same old crap about how nutting will work. negative crap belongs ina bathroom, or a positron interaction lab, you pick, k? i know good and bad points of unions. i know good and bad points of i.b.e.w. 1500 'n how ya coodent get any news on it, not even outa cns, abc, cbs,nbc when ya told them where the actions were occurring. collusion is a tarrible thang. but, to keep going on about that is a bit, hmmmmmm, immature because it shows a lack of growth. i kin say unions stink or are grate, but it duzn't change anything. i thought a debate wuz a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides, knot a yelling match.
iffen i wanted yelling 'n screaming, i'd git a job ata daycare center. da bennies wood probably be better.
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Well there is no Union , and if it came down to me making my house payments I am going to work.
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Ramdog illustrates my point (back a couple of pages) exactly and demonstrates the "line" that would have to be dealt with should the union eventually materialize. The separate point of view in this thread cannot possibly compare to the "yellin" to be heard when the houses bring in non-union people becuase of some argument. The give and take is a good thing, even if it stings a little, and just cause you don't like the way another person writes doesn't make their view negative or unacceptable. Unions have ALWAYS been like that.
I've been in OCAW, the Steelworkers and IBEW at some point, somewhere along the 25 years in this business, and shorterm "feeding the kids" needs usually irritates someone with a longer viewpoint about security and growth.
Congrats to JJordan and the heads who want to push this idea. It has merit, and should be pursued, and when a LARGE majority of the roadies see where they can get behind it, its gonna be a good thing, but NOT withoutgrowing pains.
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Congrats to JJordan and the heads who want to push this idea. It has merit, and should be pursued, and when a LARGE majority of the roadies see where they can get behind it, its gonna be a good thing, but NOT withoutgrowing pains.
Until organizers create their own site Nukeworker is the best Forum available. I suspect this will become a very long thread.
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As a general comment to all posters please keep it civil to prevent movement of this thread to PolySci as this is a topic of general interest.
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Well there is no Union , and if it came down to me making my house payments I am going to work.
over the hill frum my house is a memorial to peeple who decided that in order to make their house payments, they had to organize and create a better wage package for themselves. their management group brought in armed guards and a small shooting war developed. who knows where this country would be if the pickering guards had been successful. perhaps we would all still be buying our homes by making interest payments and giving the house back to the bank when we couldn't do that anymore. that was a major method of owning a house in those days. as an interesting note, there is the same financing available today, being packaged as a modern tool for the cash challenged.
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The union movement is alive and well, due to some gross dissparities that have come about in the past 10 to 15 years. The CEO's and top executives pays and perks have increased dramatically. Your wages haven't even kept pace with inflation, and your benefits are being whittled away little by little. Enough is enough, time for the pendulem to swing the other way!
JJ 8)
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sgt... congrats. you've got it made, and if the recruiters quit calling tomorrow, ya woodent even care. butt, fer alot of udder peeps, there knot in yer situation. unions exist for more than da paycheck. da paycheck is da main selling point, 'n union work pays moran non-union work. however, there is more too it than that. p'rhaps it'd be a good idea to surf a cupla union sites 'n see what is offered. maybe yer kids wood appreciate anudder source a cash fer kollage. 'n ders udders. take a look.
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Yes congrats SGT, unlike you I make enough money I need for now, but not enough that I could ever want. As the song goes you can never have too much fun, a girl to pretty, or to much money,etc... I do have a fellow family member that is in the union (which I make fun of) and his company has a great retirement plan and health benefits. (by the way he travels also) Now I really do like my company, but the 401k matching and beniies dont compare. Like most road techs that are doing great financially, it isnt the company that makes them money but the way that person invests in other venues and that their family stays injury/heath free. Usually the number one reason a tech has no money is because of medical reasons (women #2, jk). If I could get one thing out of union it would be better health bennies. So to all the road techs and also you JJ, have a safe New Year.
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SGT,
Do you know me? Sloglow once called me "The Mother Tereasa of rent a techs" For some strange reason I always seem to take up for the underdogs. There is nothing in it for JJ. If I was to take a position with the IBEW, do you think they will give me $100,00.00+ / year. That's what i currently make. I work a few outages away to earn this with a lot of overtime added in.I just took out a new 30 year mortgage on a nice house in Wilmington NC, so an early retirement seems to be out of the picture for old JJ. I just got finished paying alimony, and gave away 2 houses that were paid for in full.(See biloxi blues reason #2) I managed my money fairly well, but things in life happen. I may become a road tech again, you never know. There's a whole lot of upper managenent at PGN that wish I would just go away, and are probably working overtime behind the scenes to see if they can help make that happens. They won't say it, because it's illegal, but I'm clairvoyant and I can tell. I want it better for everyone, I still have a lot of friends in the rent a tech ranks. I'm concerned with their well being, and yes, JJ"s too. If the IBEW offers me a sweet position, and offers to pay me more money. Guess what? JJ's rule #1, is always , always take the money! ;) If I do take the position, you can rest assured, you won't find anyone that will try any harder, or be more open and honest than me. I would do the very best of my ability to get everyone what they rightfully deserve, and some of the IBEW recuiters I've been working with are doing exactly that, because it's something that they sincerly believe in.
JJ :)
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Until organizers create their own site Nukeworker is the best Forum available. I suspect this will become a very long thread.
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As a general comment to all posters please keep it civil to prevent movement of this thread to PolySci as this is a topic of general interest.
Even when they do, nukeworker will still be the best, because it will be impatial. Both side have a right to their opinion, and the moderators will help to keep it civil. Thank You Marlin ;)
JJ
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No thanks. Never been a fan of union labor. I am a free agant, I am free to accept the wages at a plant or move on to the next one. I don't have to wait in line for a job like some of the other trades or be sent where they want me to go.
If you want to drive wages up at plants like SONGS where they don't pay nearly enough for the area, just don't go there. Eventually when these plants don't staff they will have no choice but to become more competetive.
I stepped out of the nuclear business back in 1998 and re-entered in 2006. I left making an average of $15/hour and $50/day and came back to $23 - $27/hour and $80 - $110/day. I had a 4 year run as a production plant superintendent in Detroit, worked in sales for a couple of years and ran a small business in MI and AZ. In the "Real" world you can expect somewhere around 3% as an average annual increase. Most companies try to maintain this average. That would have put us at around $19 and change/hour for the time that I took off. I was quite suprised to see how much a Sr. HP made after only being gone for a few years. The shorter outages mean that we have to move around a bit more to fill up the time but I find that the shorter outages have actually helped me plan my year. There is far more work out there for a tech. that does a good job than there used to be. There are also less of us, that doesn't hurt either.
I am from a strong union area (automotive). I have seen them vote themselves right out of business. More money...less work...take all of the power away from the business until they are forced to close or send work over seas. Or import workers that will do it for less (southwestern plants already doing it).
I am not saying that everything is perfect because it is not. I am saying that there is currently a good living out there for those who want to work hard for it. Stop going to the plants that don't pay fairly and continue to voice your opinions. I don't think that unionized rad techs is the silver bullet.
I respect any opinions that differ from mine, I appreciate the opportunity to express my opinion on the matter in this forum.
BL
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Just a few points. Many say they have what they need, but want more. A union won't necessarily give you more of want you want, may even dip into what you need. My husbands union contract took away more than we had. Now we pay quite a bit more for less benefits out of our own pockets. True it isn't as much as payforyouown (which we did for many years).
Careful on what you want, you may get it and not like it. As for me, I live within my means and like the freedom to choose. If they freedom to choose was not taken away, I might reconsider.
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I never stated I wanted a union. I did state if I could get one thing out of a union if would be better bennies than what Im getting now. Im pretty sure everyone wants more money and better bennies. If you werent referring to me "justme" then please disregard this post. It is an advantage to know a union person real well to see the good and the bad of union and nonunion workers. I always tell him "unions are here to protect the weak." Jokingly of course. Go Gators and Happy New Year
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If you want to drive wages up at plants like SONGS where they don't pay nearly enough for the area, just don't go there. Eventually when these plants don't staff they will have no choice but to become more competetive.
I agree, whether we organize or not, a good start would be to quit going to plants that don't pay well. I have seen some impressive numbers coughed up when a plant can't staff. I have also seen some pretty unimpressive numbers and people still go anyway??
When we picked our outages last fall the question was..where is the cash? We picked the two highest paying plants that went together (at least until Wolf coughed up the extra dough, then they were the 2nd and 3rd). Last time I checked I worked to make MONEY and it makes sense not to work your can off for less cash.
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boycott of the plants sounds viable, however contractor companies can list you as being unavailable for work or mess with your unemployment. but a boycott sounds like a good action-first step to organized labor YIKES its a never ending circle.
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Having a union does not guarantee job or bennies. I sat with my Dad in the early 70's, at the Phillips Stamping Plant (Bellaire, Ohio), on the picket line. It got to a point where the company shutdown the plant for 10 years to break the union and the workers.
On the other hand, when a non union worker retires, his or her benefits change with the wind of decision from upper management. I am a firm believer in the Health Savings Account system for health care and a roll over 401k. My plan goes with me no matter where I work.
Whether you are union or non union, keep in mind, nothing is quaranteed!
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If you want to drive wages up at plants like SONGS where they don't pay nearly enough for the area, just don't go there. Eventually when these plants don't staff they will have no choice but to become more competetive.
jist fer grins, what's songs paying these daze? how's it compare to the rcol there?
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Oh so many posts! I'll try to work down the list. :P Bat Man, without a union a boycott would be a possibility. Would you trust all of your fellow techs to boycott a specific plant on their word? I think you would find that even though it was agreed to in advance, most plants would get enough techs to get by with. A lot of locals would work no matter what. The utilities would be able to work around a non union organized boycott. Hell they probably will survive a union organized boycott. They have very deep pockets, and some will spend whatever it takes to keep a union out. Somewhere around 80% already have union contracts, and a little over 60% are IBEW. Most nuclear workers would have a tough time in the real world, since some of the skills in a nuclear plant would be on the lower income bracket in non nuke, say decon/houskeeping. A lot of us actually like what we do, and really don't want to venture out there. It's a cruel hard world. The reason your wages increased so much over the time you sat out is twofold. #1 you were grossley underpaid to start out with. #2 The law of supply and demand. A lot of good techs with other marketable skills left, just like you, and they aren't comming back because they got tired of trying to raise a family on 6 months of work/ year. They also may have gotten tired of a lot of lies and broken promises. "Oh we recalculated your time and can't pay you the top rate like we said, you're 2 months short." "If you call and cancel your next job, we promise we'll keep you here for at least a week or two, until we get up and running." "If you go to this outge for me, I'll see that you get into the next one you really want." I agree you can't ask for more than the market will bear. How about some of the CEO's and VP's give a few million back, and distribute it to all of the worker bees? As far as closing down and moving, I don't think so. It's a pubic utility, they have obligations and protection. If they could ship it in from overseas, they would have started back in the 80's. Foreign workers for less? Read Eric's post, We are brining in 8 techs from Mexico so far. Guess what? 6 are returnees, and they weren't here last outage. That was the Swedish outage.They've been here for years already, and they get paid the same rate that you do. Press 1 for Engish! All of the foreign techs do a good job for us, and I'm pretty sure Bartlett has been getting work abroad for you. So maybe we're close to even on that. I understand you opinions and concerns. Thank you. OK on to my buddy SGT. Interesting article. Which came first the illegal aliens, or the attempt to organize them? What does the word illeagle mean to you? To me it means they broke a law. Now we are going to reward them and let them stay. I didn't know who John Keeley was, so I had to do a search. I read an article that he wrote. He's an advisor to the Center for Immigration Studies. He doesn't have the soulutions. He makes money writing articles, and stirring s__t.Ask him how to fix it, and he can't. But he calls himself an advisor. (oxymoron) It's a good article anyways. The illegals aren't going anywhere. It's political suicide to try to run them off. Thats why the cancer grows. I don't think a lot of unions share the views of the AFL-CIO. The union I belong to, dissassociated themselves from them, as did several more. But hey, if they're, here and are going to work. Why not train them, and then get them liveable wages. If they're not working for low wages, the companies will be less likely to hire them to replace you! Thats a little bit of what Keeley's article was about. The illegals tend to be way low on the socioeconomical ladder, and so are their 2nd and 3rd generations. We need to break the chain, and help train and educate. Unions do this for their members. I understand why they came here. some of the same reasons my ancestors did. I just don't like the fact that our government let it get out of control. Like I said it's a mess, and I don't think anyone will try to fix it! :' justme and biloxi, one thing a national union can and will do, would be to assist with health care. If everyone is paying into the same fund, it will provide economy of numbers. Maybe they can line up several naitionwide providers so that you can use it anywhere. Cathy it looks to me that the wage increases have stopped for the time being, but it's early in the season, and we will see when someone can't staff. Supposedly we are staffed, but they are just now starting,. I'm betting there will be a few cancellations. Alphadude, when I was a contractor, I lived in PA, and according to state law, I didn't have to travel to seek employment. If there was none available in my area, nobdy could force me to travel. Now if you have a nuke in your backyard like I did, and there was an outage. You were expected to work. I decided that a lot of plants were better for me than the home one, so I went there, but nobody forced me,. It was my choice. Do you think you would ever work for Bartlett again, if Eric called your UC office and messed with your claim? (he'd never ever do that! Eric's the man!) shawneeman: When you retire, you still belong to the union, and when they bargain for a new contract, they always look out for the retirees also. If you aren't in a union, and you get a little company pension. Do they have to give you cost of living increases? I don't think so. Some do but there is nothing to force them to, only their conciense, and I wouldn't bank on that!
Whew! Thanks,
JJ :-*(
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Oh so many posts! I'll try to work down the list. :P Bat Man, without a union a boycott would be a possibility. Would you trust all of your fellow techs to boycott a specific plant on their word? I think you would find that even though it was agreed to in advance, most plants would get enough techs to get by with. A lot of locals would work no matter what. The utilities would be able to work around a non union organized boycott. Hell they probably will survive a union organized boycott. They have very deep pockets, and some will spend whatever it takes to keep out a union. ETC. ETC. ETC. JJ :-*(
All good points JJ. You are correct that we were underpaid in the 90's for sure. I will never disagree with you that there is no reason in the world that we rent a techs shouldn't get the same wages as the house tech sitting right next to us on the refuel floor or generator platform, but I also recognize that it is their plant, not ours and it is maybe a little unrealitic to expect that. I witnessed the influx of Mexican HP's at SONGS this past fall. Some I would really question if they were real HP's at all in Mexico or just a firewatch. There were a couple that I liked working with very much and were very good at the job. They were doing it for less...that I have a big problem with.
I would not trust that any of my peers would join in a boycott. The hard fact is that most of us have families, bills etc. and only a few weeks a year to make the money. That along with the fact that one contract company has most of the work leaves us at the mercy of those people.
So what is the answer? I don't know. All I know is that I have enough experience with unions to never be convinced of their merit.
I am not pissed off enough about the money that I make to join a campaign like this. I still feel that there are enough plants out there available to me that pay good and I can avoid the ones that don't. This is also not completely fair of me to say because I have a different situation than some others. I don't want to work all year, hell, I don't even want to work half the year. My income is only half or less than half of the total houehold income and I chose to go back on the road to spend as much time as possible with my wife and daughter. This job is perfect for that so I am happy. If I am able to make a point from time to time and not go to a plant (even at the cost of unemployment) I will. I think that the start we need is to get more techs to do the same but like you said, we can't count on it.
Now I am just starting to ramble...I don't have a good answer, just a lot of outloud thoughts.
Brett
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J.J. I appreciate your concern and your input. I grew up in Vermont during the farm age and had no clue that a union was necessary. But then I took a non-unoin house tech job at Brunswick in the early 80's. My family was allowed 30 days motel and meals to relocate. We put in receipts for a reasonable beach house and groceries, instead of eating out. My CP+l Supervisor would not pay the bill because of the beach house. We would have saved the company several hundred dollars over motels and restaurants. He had the power; I lost. I now enjoy any representation I can get. We are not always dealing with reasonable managers.
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As I said earlier Deja Vu this was all discussed about 2 years ago on here and nothing is new under the sun. Fact is Rent A Techs will not organize (HP techs) there are too few to make a difference (3500 or so). Their politics generally tends to be conservative non-union. (there are exceptions) Unions are only as strong as their members and their coffers. (large numbers and high dues) Unions do provide a somewhat equal playing field for the craft of concern. Union experiences do differ. And when in doubt-go to college- get a degree- become professional- and chart your own destiny-
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Fact is Rent A Techs will not organize (HP techs) there are too few to make a difference (3500 or so).
I think 3500 is low. OCAW estimated 750 in "79" then the IBEW I believe estimated 3000 in their effort. 6000 plus may be a better number at this time maybe up to 10,000 if you include all sources. I think this was a subject of earlier posts.
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the 3500 number is readily available personnel. (its more like 3200 something) that value maxed out around 5500 in the early 90s and has declined since due to age and people changing jobs to other positions. Its not as many as you think. Remember RCTs are not the same as ANSI. If you counted RCTs then the numbers may be higher. Adding in deconners, and jrs would also raise the value. 3500 is for full 3.1/18.1 ANSI techs only.
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Sounds plausible whats the source?
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I'm told that 'HP techs that rove from outage to outage' is <800. There are 1685 HP/RP/RCT resumes in our database.
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...I witnessed the influx of Mexican HP's at SONGS this past fall...They were doing it for less...that I have a big problem with...
Well ya baited me in again - once again I have no comments on this whole union vs. non union debate other than what I stated before – I feel that I do have to weigh in from time to time to clarify certain statements such as the one above made by Bat Man. To say that the Mexican Technicians are "doing it for less" is an erroneous statement. The billing rate for a foreign national is the same for a US citizen. So the client, in this case SONGS, is still pay'n out the same amount regardless of who is doing the work. You also have to look at the country that these techs come from, be it Mexico, Sweden, Slovenia etc... Mexico and Sweden happen to have socialized medicine, meaning that the vendor companies and technicians alike have to pay a hell of a lot more into their health care system than we do. Any further discrepancies in what the techs make is attributed to international travel, paperwork fees (visa's, permits, etc...), other socialized benefits, and various other miscellaneous expenses that come out of what their parent company bills. So I guess what I’m trying to say is that yes they may not bring home the same amount as the US citizen standing next to them, but they get it in other ways that we as Americans don’t. Anyways, I’ve probably confused the situation more than I’ve clarified it.
Eric Bartlett
BTW - back in 1990 the IBEW classified Decon techs as UN-SKILLED labor, thus not covered by the union - but they still wanted those dues...go figure. Good luck JJ.
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...3500 is for full 3.1/18.1 ANSI techs only.
...is that contract techs only...
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I'm told that 'HP techs that rove from outage to outage' is <800. There are 1685 HP/RP/RCT resumes in our database.
...yes...help me understand this...
...30 outages/season...40 sr rp's/outage...1200 outage working contract sr rp's...plus or minus 20%...am i right...
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"To say that the Mexican Technicians are "doing it for less" is an erroneous statement. The billing rate for a foreign national is the same for a US citizen. So the client, in this case SONGS, is still pay'n out the same amount regardless of who is doing the work. You also have to look at the country that these techs come from, be it Mexico, Sweden, Slovenia etc... Mexico and Sweden happen to have socialized medicine, meaning that the vendor companies and technicians alike have to pay a hell of a lot more into their health care system than we do. Any further discrepancies in what the techs make is attributed to international travel, paperwork fees (visa's, permits, etc...), other socialized benefits, and various other miscellaneous expenses that come out of what their parent company bills. So I guess what I’m trying to say is that yes they may not bring home the same amount as the US citizen standing next to them, but they get it in other ways that we as Americans don’t. Anyways, I’ve probably confused the situation more than I’ve clarified it. "
Thanks for the clarification Eric, understand that this information comes from some of the foriegn techs themselves. Obviously fragmented information, maybe trying to create some controversy like this, who knows? Guess I took the bait :)
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nope thats all techs (based upon INPO surveys) If i remember correctly the constant demand number is around 3100 or so- meaning to run nuclear power in the US you need that many techs- that would give you about 20 techs per unit with the remainder floating around elsewhere. In the late 80s early 90s when the amount of techs was about 2 times the constant demand number (around 6000 techs were out there and we only needed 3100-) we advised tech schools to "cut back" and we in the utilities began to get lower costs for techs too. (glut in the industry-thank You Jesus for Superfund and cleanup) Those were some lean times for HPs- hmm that sorta is when Unions became popular - think there is a connection???
So do you all think we are keeping the supply constant to fill the void left by those that are leaving, or dropping over from old age or moving on? Most of us in the business dont think so. I think within the next few years it will be critical-
To have a strong union base- demand must be increasing (which it is) and supply of technicians must also be increasing (which it isnt) when both of these factors are positive- this is fruitfull ground for a union.
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...so, in conclusion, there are roughly one thousand contract commercial power outage rp technicians...
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so there aren't hardly any techs in da biz, yet the wages ain't moving. whatever happened to supply 'n demand? all da "bad" plants, what percentage did they raise the rates to to complete the staffing? did the next outage start at the finish wage of previous staff or did they revert to the low number 'n go up from there? since da number is so low, why can't sitting out fer a cupla weeks drive wages quickly, since outages are only a cupla weeks long? iffen der's only 800 techs, woodent a good email campaign drive wages mucho pronto?
btw, re: "Remember RCTs are not the same as ANSI." ansi is simply time spent, rct is qualed by testing. ;)
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Would you trust all of your fellow techs to boycott a specific plant on their word? I think you would find that even though it was agreed to in advance, most plants would get enough techs to get by with. A lot of locals would work no matter what. The utilities would be able to work around a non union organized boycott. Hell they probably will survive a union organized boycott.
Exactly why it didn't work in 90. So why will it work today?? Stuck my neck out then, watched a LOT of BIG talkers drive by the line every morning at VCS! Think I would do it again?? Not!
Most nuclear workers would have a tough time in the real world, since some of the skills in a nuclear plant would be on the lower income bracket in non nuke, say decon/houskeeping.
Which is another reason the plants don't have to pay, it's not all rocket science!!! Thought Fitz was crazy for hiring folks off the street to release items from the controlled area (notebooks, handtools etc.), truth is, they probably did a better, more thorough job than I would have done sitting there all day!
The reason your wages increased so much over the time you sat out is twofold. #1 you were grossley underpaid to start out with. #2 The law of supply and demand.
#2 pretty much says it all, huh? If you tell me, as a utility, you would generously pay MORE than you had to, to get a qualified person, you are fooling yourself, not me.
How about some of the CEO's and VP's give a few million back, and distribute it to all of the worker bees?
Yeah, RIGHT! Come on JJ! Wake-up and smell the resin!
justme and biloxi, one thing a national union can and will do, would be to assist with health care. If everyone is paying into the same fund, it will provide economy of numbers. Maybe they can line up several naitionwide providers so that you can use it anywhere.
Maybe the CEO's will give back some of those $$$$$$'s too!
Not meaning to slam you sir, but after living through the last fiasco, this is still a real sore spot. I can say that it did wake me up a little. Started looking at everything, including my fellow technicians a little differently! Realized if you just follow the cow in front of you, you will end-up on someone's dinner table!
I've got my "cushy" house job. Good bennies, decent retirement (if I live long enough).
If I could start over with what I know today (starting to sound like the old coot that I am) I would have stuck a small piece away from every paycheck, and I would be retired today. Even in the old days when I was so drastically "underpaid", as you say, there is no excuse (other than my dumb self) that I am still working today. Can't blame Bartlett, Numanco, IRM, RAD, IBEW, etc.(told you I was old), or unions or non-union jobs.
If you want a better job and better pay, do something to separate yourself from the crowd. Whether it's more schooling, or just simply push for a job or position slightly off the same old path. (Industrial Hygiene has been berry, berry good to me!) Whatever comes of this, I truly hope it all works out for the best for those of you involved.
Walt
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jist two stik my neck out here, but iffen everybuddy that thought a union didn't have a chance wood git outa da conversation, maybe the ones who wood like to see a union move on the issue wood git a chance at that without having to deal with alla negativity.
Uh, the Topic says this is a debate. That usually means the possibility of more than one viewpoint! Maybe someone should start a topic for "Pro-Union Discussion Only - Please"!
re: 1990.... lots has changed, lots has been learned. yinz gonna live ina past or be in the now working for da future?
I think someone once said something to the effect that "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it"!
1990 was also da heyday of ffd purgement. obviously ya moved on from that, has yer pay?
Uh, yes.
re: alla da fine points of contractual work.... ain't this a tiny bit anal, considering there ain't no contract, proposed or in effect? yer beating a horse that ain't born yet.
Now, I can agree 100% here.
Walt
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walt harris..... in case yer missing a point of the discussion, there has been plenty of people saying that last time (90s) the organization sucked, that the strike should have been done last and not first, yadda yadda yadda. so saying it didn't work then 'n won't work now is kinda..... how shood eye say dis.... baby boomer logic. how's about us dinosaurs try showing sum light 'n letting gen x-ers, y-ers (or millenials, eye git lost in terminologee) do the things that can be done. we screwed up alot. 1500 wuz jist won more thing. butt advice on proceeding shud be cast in a positive light. imho, uv coors.
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...so, in conclusion, there are roughly one thousand contract commercial power outage rp technicians...
Is this number for real? I guess that would be about right. I guess I have been pretty clear on my thoughts about the union not being the answer in my opinion, but even if we all agreed that it was the answer, why would a large union organization like the IBEW give two hoots about a little group like us? If we were part of a larger organization like IBEW wouldn't we have to have their blessings to actually take action if it came down to it? As small of a group as this is I wouldn't bank on them providing the support that it might take. To be an effective bargining unit it would almost have to be the international brotherhood of HP's as a seperate entity all together. Then we are back to the boycott thing as a beginning.
Honest to goodness, I wouldn't lie to my small family of HP's. I have seen the Teamsters come in and get a small group of people fired up enough to join, start paying dues and then get no support what so ever.
Wages didn't go up, benefits didn't get any better. All it did was make managers jobs get easier and the workers realize that they didn't have it all that bad to begin with.
Does anyone really think that by joining a union our wages are going to go up $10 bucks/hour and all of us get retirement packages and great health care? Some of that might come true to a certain degree but not like most would think, and there would be a price for these things, a larger price than you may think.
Imagine that you are now part of a unionized HP group. You want to go to STP in the spring because that is a close plant to your home and you like to work there. You have always done a good job for them in the past and they have always invited you to come back because you don't miss work and take pride in what you do. You go down to your local union hall to sign "the book". You later find out that you have to go to Bubba Joes nuclear plant in BF Egypt because Sluggo the laziest HP on the planet has a couple more years seniority than you.
I think that any system that rewards people based solely on time and not merit absolutely sucks. That is what the union does.
I have worked for Bartlett on and off since 1992, before that it was ARC, before that it was Newport News Shipbuilding. In all that time I have never had an experience with Bartlett that made me think, Man...we need to get unionized so I can stop getting screwed. There has always been one thing that held true for me. I put in an honest day every day (ok, most days), I follow the rules and do my very best to protect the people that I am paid to protect at work and I try to leave every site with an invitation to come back if I choose to. Bartlett has been very good to send me to the places that I want to work and has never made me go to a place that I didn't want to go to. I want to keep it that way.
In 1993 I bought a new Corvette, I was 22 years old! What ever distance there is between me and being a millionaire at 37 is my own fault. I see 50 year old techs that live paycheck to paycheck and they are usually the ones that complain that we don't make enough money and should organize. I have friends with normal jobs making $45K/year and support a family, live in a nicer than average home, drive new cars and save money like mad. Must have been the union that made them that way...
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Whoa here we go again! Fingers don't fail me now! :P
I think someone once said something to the effect that "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it"!
Uh, yes.
Now, I can agree 100% here.
Walt
We haven't forgotten Walt. I remember it a s clear as a 51 year old can. Let me ask you about the walkout at VCS. How many days did it last? I think it was about 1, but I could be mistaken. Do you think you really shook up any of the utilities with that? Even if it lasted a week. We're talking about corporations that do BILLIONS of business anually. You guys really scared the piss out of them. I bet all of the CEO's retreated to their closets and started sucking their thumbs in the fetal position. ::)Uh, the Topic says this is a debate. That usually means the possibility of more than one viewpoint! Maybe someone should start a topic for "Pro-Union Discussion Only - Please"!
[/Post away Walt, you have valid concerns and issues, and I'd like to disscus them.
1000 techs, I don't really know. We at BNP are staffing in 72 this outage, and we are a dual unit boiler. I don't know how many other outages will compete, but our techs leave for RNP, or St. Lucie, and then try for one more before it's the summer off. I hate to do this but Eric would be able to provide you with an accurate number. 1000, 800, 3500, what's the difference? the IBEW believes that evryone has a right to a contract,. Thoose numbers are not piddily, they often organize small shops with only a few employees. You aren't going to be able to do this yourselves, you need a strong organization beside you. They don't tell you what to do. They advise you. They draw on past experience to assist you, and try to keep you from making some of the mistakes others before you have made (1500) You are in controll of your own destiny, as long as you operate within the guidlines of your constitution, that you agree to follow, when you join. I've been amazed at the amount of support we are receiving at BNP. Just for the record our number of eligible voters is somewhere around 320, give or take due to the daily attrition and hirings.
Imagine that you are now part of a unionized HP group. You want to go to STP in the spring because that is a close plant to your home and you like to work there. You have always done a good job for them in the past and they have always invited you to come back because you don't miss work and take pride in what you do. You go down to your local union hall to sign "the book". You later find out that you have to go to Bubba Joes nuclear plant in BF Egypt because Sluggo the laziest HP on the planet has a couple more years seniority than you.
I think that any system that rewards people based solely on time and not merit absolutely sucks. That is what the union does.
I don't know where this kind of info comes from, but the union doesn't reward you for seniority. In fact if you choose to not take senority into account when you draw up your contract, you don't have to! It's your contract word it exactly like you want it to be. When I worked as a union construction worker, I worked for a small masonary contractor. He had all of his regular employees, I never had to go to the hall and sign a list to work for him. If he got a big job and needed extra bodies, he called the hall. They provided him with bodies of the refferal list. If work got real bad for him, and it did from time to time. i had the right to go to the hall and sign said list. When you signed, your name was at the bottom, and moved up as people went to work and were removed from the list. You had the right to decline one job without loosing your position on the list. If you turned down 2 jobs, back to the bottom, and wait your turn again. Some exceptions to the rules. Whe a contractor staffed a job from the hall: the contractors first man, usually was a regular employee, became Foreman? General Foreman. Second man was the Shop Steward, the union placed this person. They expected this person to attend the montly meetings and give a stewards report, so they picked people that regularly attended meetings. that was me, I never missed any. Other exceptions were, special quals. If any were required, they went down the list to the first one that had them, he went to work. i took every traing class that the hall offered for free! Thousands of dollars anually. They also paid my wages, gas, and fed me while I was training. Pretty good deal if you're unemployed. I spent very little ti ;)me on that list, and other less enterprising individuals couldn't get off. They hated me and couldn't take the time to do the same things that were offered to them also. STP could offer their returnees first crack just like they do know, and if they can't staff. Go to soome sort of refferal list, It doesn't have to be like this but it could if thats what you want. There are other ways also. Use your imagination.
$10.00/hr Probably not at first, but you got to start somewhere. Be realistic though. Most of my concerns aren't financial, but remember JJ's rule #1! I want a few things that won't cost much if anything. Most importantly, due process.
Keep em comming,
JJ 8)
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Does Bartlett or the Atlantic group base their pay on experience or merit? There is no way radbastard should get the same amount of money as me. (thats an attempt at a joke) Cant we least get NShift differential without having a union? Go Gators
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Whoa here we go again! Fingers don't fail me now! :PWe haven't forgotten Walt. I remember it a s clear as a 51 year old can. Let me ask you about the walkout at VCS. How many days did it last? I think it was about 1, but I could be mistaken. Do you think you really shook up any of the utilities with that? Even if it lasted a week. We're talking about corporations that do BILLIONS of business anually. You guys really scared the piss out of them. I bet all of the CEO's retreated to their closets and started sucking their thumbs in the fetal position. ::)
Well, it didn't even last a day for some of the big talkers. I had a two month old baby at home, and like a dim-wit I stood outside the gate till the fat lady had sung and gone home, while several of the most vocal/outspoken comrades weenied-out the first day. I could name names, but one "kidd", had basically threatened a female tech at Catawba to the point of tears regarding crossing the line at VCS. I'm not sure he lasted a day on the line. That's the things I can't forget. I quietly commited, and followed through to the end and went home. I had nothing but respect for the technicians that never made a commitment in the first place.
That is my point though, there are a lot of folks who will get fired-up talking about what they will do, but you won't know until it's time to put-up or shut-up! Sort-of like the old 3-Stooges routine where the Sergent asks for volunteers, and everyone puts their foot out .... then steps backward ...leaving the stooges alone.
That's why, I would never commit again. Burned once, shame on you, .......
Nothing baby-boomer bout it. In Sloglo's OWN WORDS (sorta) "there are plenty of people saying it sucked"!!!
Wow! Revelation! How soon some forget!
Look around the break-room next outage. There is hardly a per-diem check being used for per-diem! They are going for house payments, car/truck payments, boat/motorcycle payments, etc.... Talk is big, and everyone gets fired-up and says they won't give in, but walking the walk is something else.
I've read many of your posts over the years JJ, and I believe that your intentions and heart are with the roadies, but I don't think you can get a majority to agree on where to order the pizza, much less make a serious run on a union vote.
Proud Baby Boomer,
Walt
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Walt,
I hear you brother, I'm proud of you, and belive me I understand. I also know what I'm up against. Anything worth having, doesn't come easy. The more precious things are the toughest!
JJ ;)
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O.K. Sloglo, I'll take my "negativity", my soapbox, and go back into the background for a while. I can't remember the last time I posted here on the site, but I stop by a couple of times a week to see what's going on. This topic just still hits a raw nerve with me.
Sure, I would like to make more money, .... and just this week we were sitting around the lunch table griping cause the medical coverage went up another $15/month ...... but if you ever need a reality check ... every once and a while, take 25 years of nuke experience, an NRRPT certificate, and go job hunting outside the "biz". It will help you appreciate what you get now a little more!
Again best of luck to you all! Just be careful whatever it is you do on this subject! Didn't mean to offend anyone ..... Keep pluggin' JJ (Someday I want to try some of that "famous" ice cream.)
Walt
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SloGo tru nuff ANSI is time but an RCT with out the time cant work ANSI, and ANSI without CORE or NRRPT cant work RCT, but for the demand number only ANSI techs are counted because thats whut kin werk power plants. And when you have the demand met with a constant supply things stay somewhat static. (1000 techs and around 800 temp jobs a year= demand met)
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:) All I know is that I spent 8.5 years working in a union at an NRC facilty and finally after never hearing from them only at reneg contract time where they finaily neg me out of $700.00 a year less while charging me more for union dues and no overtime to make up for the loss I'm not so sure unionizing is the way to go these days. Besides when you look at differences of places like INL and Oak Ridge and the big difference between NRC and DOE and you expext a tech to use union representation thats an awfuly big mountain to climb. I feel we as traveling techs have enough battles just neg contracts with companies for per diem and pay rates I dont want to pay out on union dues for there help in setting me back so they can get theirs while I'm not getting mine. I've seen a lot of good techs out here since I became one and I've met all types of people in this business. Don't kid yourself if you think for one moment that as a NRC powerhouse tech trying to hold out in a neg battle that some DOE tech wont go to work in their place and vise vers a ... Sad but true :'( we as techs compeat all the time for employment positions as it is :-\ its the nature of the system we have but, as it stands we dont pay our money out to a union for the pleasure of it all ::) I hope I dont come off as sounding like a union basher because in its day the union laid the ground work for our employment today. A lot of good people lost their lives for the union fight and our rights we enjoy here and now. But times have changed and so has the american way when it comes to employment. We as americans deal with a lot more then just respresntation of a tech and a energy company. Our labor is being out soursed to other countries. Doe and NRC are so far apart when it comes to employment as a tech. I dont feel a union could do me any better then if I saved my money and represented myself. When you look at the distance there is for new techs when it comes to firewatch, deconers, jr techs, sr techs, and the battles for positions of employment its tough out there. We dont need a union rep to tell us were not qualified there are plenty enough in the pecking order as it is. I find it upsetting when I see someone who comes in with RCT training and certification and the dedication of becoming an good RCT only to be honored with the position of megar firewatch or deconor. When a tech applies for a positoin as a Jr RCT and gets told well you dont have enough experience do you realy think a union rep with make a difference. I've seen Sr. RCT & Jr Tech go fall asleep behind a pipe or in a swivel office chair and have no problem taking their checks to the bank. This is the reality of things like working at a site only to having them add to the tech population more techs that are being paid a better per diem and/or wage and the exsisting techs having to train them with no more pay insentive. Now a lot of techs will say well thats their falt for not being able to neg better for themselves but in all honesty is it really. I really dont see how a union would help all that much when it comes to these issues. and if a union is brought in where will the money for my dues come from should I neg it in my next job offer to get the company to pay for it or am I suppose to eat it for all the help they will be when I need them. I've seen unions sell out in companies such as Catapilar, Firestone, and others. I come from Illinois where some of the lastest union battles have occured and I've seen and personally know of the losses of retirement pensions be ate up by medicial insurance dues because of union representation. When they take its from the employee not the companies so not only do you lose to the comapny but you pay the union for it. I'm sorry but the way it is right now I work for me to do with as I see fit. If I lose then its my falt for beings ignorent. But I can use my losses as a learning expeirence with a price then so be it. I dont need to pay the union in a employment field they cant control and probably wont understand. 8)
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Just out of couriosity fellas, where would we work?
The last time we struck (90) a lot of companies that had nothing to do with our jobs all of a sudden "signed the Union agreement". They saw an opportunity to get themselves into another field besides the one they were in at the time. I never heard of any of them actually "GETTING" a contract for RPs.
The plants already have contracts in place that are negotiated for a certain price and those last for roughly 5 years each.
So if the contracts are in place with non-union shops and the techs unionize and you can only work Union. Where are the jobs you are supposed to work?
It seems then that you are forced to work non-union and break the Union agreement in order to pay the bills and feed the family.
Oh and of course, the is the little matter of the Union then coming after your butt with fines for breaking the aggreement and working as a "SCAB" those fines can run in the thousands!
So it seems to me, if we join the Uninon we are commmiting to being out of work until Union contract go in at the palnts and I would think that the contract currently in place would have to expre first.
And yes, I was on the line for 8 days up at Fitz. My ex-husband and I were 2 of the 3 JUNIORS that walked. Everyone had a job to go back into though, EXCEPT the Juniors.
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this topic is like the weather- a lot of complaints but no one does anything about it.. (sorry mark twain i couldnt resist)
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let me tri 'n git my head around sum of these points;
sr, experienced hptechs are a very good thing for a plant to staff sew they pay good money for them.
jr, raw hptechs are easily used for nickel/dime jobs 'n sew don't get paid much, but shood put in there time to make sr 'n git the big bux.
it takes ~9 years to grow a sr hptech.
sr hptechs shood continue education, git degrees, go into management 'n leave the lesser paychecks behind.
duz ennnybuddy else see a problem with the math of <1000 techs, 800 jobs, edukated attrition for more money in a 9 year time frame? duz a degree really garrentee a good job? kin alla hptechs (jr & sr) wit degrees raise there hand? i thought sew.
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Are any of you currently in a CBOP program? What are you all smoking? ??? I'm amazed at all of the missimformation here. i don't know if you've heard this so much you're starting to believe it?
Tina: What do you mean by an NRC facility? I think you mean a comercial nuclear power plant. DOE and a DOD sites would be handled by individula contracts since they tend to be longer term, but not always.What kind of union did you belong to? You mean to tell me they didn't have a office or a union hall you could go to, and ask questions, and seek answers? In 8.5 years you should have been able to overturn the officers at least twice if not 3 times, and voted on as many contracts. Do you hold out and negotiate you wages seperate from the rest of the workers? If you do, then I've got to meet you, you're awsome. The contract company will rarely pay anyone any extra, because it cuts into their profit, and if word were to get out. It would be sheer Chaos. I guess nobody compeats for jobs out in the real world, just in the nukes. Get real! We're all animals, and it's a jungle out there. It's suvival of the fittest. If your not getting the jobs you want, try getting out of the break trailer every once in a while. If that doesn't work, make yourself more attractive. Learn a specialty or 2. Take the NRRPT, I did all of that, and still think you need a union. I worked almost wherever I wanted, and most of the year except maybe 2 months in the summer. American labor is being outsourced, but not nuclear. The plants are here and so is the work.Union reps that you should be electing, don't set the quals. Utilities do, usually based on the ANSI standard, wich is based on time spent in your proffession. Currently you are sujected to a great deal of favoritisim, which is great if you're the choosen one. I doubt that that happens much unless you're really pretty, and really good! I've never heard of a company paying more to a new hire, than the people that have to train them. Where do I sign up? We currently need to train more techs. This needs to be closely controlled though, a glut of techs would lower wages, and reduce amount of work / person. The union can provide training funded by you dues. Dues would come out of your pocet, and at most utilities are in the $20- $40/ month range. There are different levels of participation though, your option also. The more expensive would provide a small pension, hence the increased cost. There are other perks associated with it also.Dues cover operating expenses, legal representation, training, welfare, ect. It's a small price for all that you can receive. Unions don't sell out, corrupt officials do.there are rules in place to help minimize this, members need to keep a constant vigilance on their officials and contract. Pensions don't get ate up. they are closely regulated because of prior abuses by companies and corrupt officials, The union doesn't undewrite health care, they offer providers that do, sometimes several chioces. They don't set the premiums, the insurannce companies do that themselves. You is the first letter in union, if you don't understand the field you're in shame on you. Control the workplace, nobody does. The union is a stabilizing force though.
cairnit,
You didn't strike in 90, you just laid out for almost a day. at some places. You've probeby faked being sick for a longer period. You just didn't do it with all of your buds! What companies signed what agreement, there wasn't and isn't an agreement to this day. There will be one sometime, lots of people want one they just aren't posting, read the stats for this thread. Why do you think it is getting so much attention? It aint for my writing skills. Yes their are contracts in place, they last from 3 to 5 years whatever is stipulated. Ifd acontract is in place, then it's a union shop, not non union. If the techs form a union, the utilities can sign an agreement with them, wether or not there is a contract in place for us house mice.If thay won't, then the union techs shouldn't work there. If only the non union show up, they'll have a real tough time, and may reconsider. That was the purpose of the walkout in 90, but it was ill conceived. If all the other sites are staffed with good techs, larger pool because of the non union not participating. Completing there outages on time, and some are not. How soon do you think the shareholders will react. If you sign an agreement and then break it, what do you think we sould do with you? We are the union, your brothers and sisters. You promised us you would stand beside us. You lied! What should we do? What does the company do if you break an agreement or rule? real good chance you're looking for work. The can fine you and worse too if they'd like. Again send me a copy of the contract in place, I'll post it right here. I admire you for staying out for the 8 days, and am sorry that you were lied too. I'll never do that. A union would've gotten the Jr's jobs back too! Folks don't take this as a personal assult, it's not. There is just a lot of bad information here. If I post some real facts on a different thread and call it union shop 101, would you all take the time to read and learn. Lots of this is publised by the government. There are links on www.pgnunion.com to a lot of educational info that a lot of you need to read.
Thanks,
JJ
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My hand is raised, but it doesnt matter very much in the traveling field. Ive seen resumes with Nuclear engineer and radiation specialist on them. Looked to see where they graduated from and all it stated was that they attended college. If one has the gift of gab its easy to succeed in this business. Networking is probably the most important skill to have when your a traveling tech. Now I will go back to smoking. Go Gators
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slo go is in management and so am I, so it is observation from outside the fish bowl- but objectively the union grass roots are not among the rent a techs- the craft didnt come from labor (technical specialist) and like i said two years back its not gonna happen soon.
so lets discuss something important like Mary Kate and Ashleys failure in the goth clothing line-
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Quote from Marlin: "Mary Kay and Paris Hilton posts are not helpful but do not warrant deletion as SloGlo's comments are not edited or condemned."
Fine, gone... By all means, carry on with your debate. ;)
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Your not the only one Walt. SloGlo doesn’t want an open discussion. Look at several of his post.I would rather try and talk to the wall.
SloGlo has a right to his opinion, I don't think it is a problem. This thread is up to seven pages in a short period of time clearly showing an interest on both sides of the issue. I believe that SloGlo has a problem with "Nay Sayers", a common issue if you are in management. This is an open forum and this has not inhibited the exchange of ideas. I have stopped posting on this thread so as to try and be an unbiased moderator, but I intend to watch it closely. Mary Kay and Paris Hilton posts are not helpful but do not warrant deletion as SloGlo's comments are not edited or condemned.
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Why not take a poll for those who want a union and would sign an intent card versus those who do not want a union. Simple. Agree to disagree! May be even add a link to those who want to contact a union representative. Anything I missed?
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slo go is in management and so am I, so it is observation from outside the fish bowl- but objectively the union grass roots are not among the rent a techs- the craft didnt come from labor (technical specialist) and like i said two years back its not gonna happen soon.
so lets discuss something important like Mary Kate and Ashleys failure in the goth clothing line-
...from a management perspective, what will the outage contract rp environment look like in the next ten years...
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stable and well planned with RCTs coming over to the dark side. (utilities) the most current major event is the SGR projects on the books. this work demands previously experienced (not usually in the technician arena) project specialist. with D&D on the downhill, personnel from this area will fill the niches of needed Steam Gen personnel. this milestone in nuke is ramping up now. (10 or more planned by Bechtel alone)
major milestones in nuke worker demand
hangers and anchor bolts
core barrel
reactor coolant pumps
head replacements
TMI mods
Apdx R mods
Steam Gen replacement
Re-rack
IFSI
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:) Hey JJordan
No offence taken but, in responce: I have trained site proceedures to new arriving rcts that made more per diem and proabley a better wage then myself. When this occured the whole crew walked out the building until the RPOC came out and calmed our futhers. At which time he promtly told us to call our companies with the complaints. Needless to say we all called our different companies and even the techs that were already on the site from the same company that the new arrivels were from were'nt being paid the same per diem and complained. We all got told that the so called "New Arrivels" were contracted as short term (hence there high pay)and would be the first to exit the project. Although we were all hired as tempory made no difference and this went on until the end of the project. And to add salt to the wounds we were not given a pay differental for working a second shift that would come and go like the wind as the higherarky saw fit. As for neg a contract with a company for pay scale I have seen techs paid at a range from $18 dollars and hour up to $28 per hour and I myself have never been paid the same rate on any two jobs I've worked. Hell I've worked for as low as $18 per hour and as high as $35 per hour. All that without a union representation thank you very much. As for past union experience, the union I was a member of for 8.5 years was a rather large one. It represents all the hospitols and medicle services. As well as security companies. There were 8 different rog sites with our power company so we didnt have a union hall. But we did manage to send our second atempt at a great union stewart to the yearly union rally held in sunny San Fransisco where he got to hear the hooha of Al Core's voter recuriting rederek. Only to come back union thumping and costing me personaly $700.00 lost per year in income and rasing my dues for the pleasure of being a union member. Oh by the way he went on to take a company position as most union stewarts do. That was the big motivation for me to become a traveling tech. As for your idea that unions can't cost employees their retirement, try telling that to the hundreds of catapilliar retired employees. First the union agreed with the company to hire young kids from the community and call them SEC's and pay them $10 to $15 dollars per hour wage while severecing the Ole Timers to leave. So as the "Ole Timers" who stood on picket lines from time to time during their 30 years of service for a wage of $24 to $30 per hour went for nothing. But you had what you always get. Young unexperienced in union and /or employee affairs, I'll work and vote for anything types (SEC's). Then when the vote came up for the company to stop paying their percentage on insurance (the companies claim higher insurance costs hurting them) and pushing it back on the employees the retirees got socked with having to take their retirment money (living expence) and fund their medicle insurance which was totally unexpected to them during their past 30 year stent of a wounderful working relationship with their wounderful company. A employee spends their 30 years working for the same company expecting to take their well earned retirement and go off into the sunset to live the life of a rasin in the sun. Not to have a company or corperation taking from their pence. By the way the same year the comany did this they claimed to have made the most profits for its fiscle year. Gee where was the union in this case. Im sure it all came down to the votes right. ::) As it stands now I work for myself , yea a company and me reach an agreement. They give me the job,, I work it and take my money to the bank. If I want to go to a power outage after I finish up a Marssim project I can and I dont have to go through a union neg to do so. I feel we as rct's are segragated enough by not all sites accepting our DOE Core Certifications and not all sites requiring NEU testing proceedure and those with the claim that people taking the NRRPT without putting the required time in making it non ligament in some peoples eyes. We need the fact that between DOE/NRC/D & D and all others such as Deconers/Sr & JR RCTs/Marssims/Firewatch/ Check point personel / just to mention a few: the fact that they even have hurtels/or hoops to jump when trying to stay employed. We damm sure dont need an added expense just to be able to work. We have gas prices if we want finacial torture and aggravation. Thanks for listening. ;)
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Quote from Marlin: "Mary Kay and Paris Hilton posts are not helpful but do not warrant deletion as SloGlo's comments are not edited or condemned."
Fine, gone... By all means, carry on with your debate. ;)
Thanx self moderation is the best moderation. ;)
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No offence taken but, in responce: I have trained site proceedures to new arriving rcts that made more per diem and proabley a better wage then myself. When this occured the whole crew walked out the building until the RPOC came out and calmed our futhers.
You should have been fired for discussing information that may cause your company harm. (salaries and perdiem rates are consider proprietary information that may be used for bidding purposes)
What ever happened to self responsibility? If you agree to take the pay and perdiem, and the conditions- YOU AGREED- which use to mean "I am being responsible for my destiny by agreeing to something." I accepted what you offered me.
Remember you agreed to this, you accepted the outcome. You accepted the terms of employment. Don't blame the union for the outcome on something you agreed too.
Would you call your bank and complain about a loan when the interest rates drops and yours dont because of the agreement you agreed to? No, you look else where and then move on. No one will hold that against you.
Oh by the way retirement funds maintained by the companies are not protected. If the company goes under so does your retirment in some cases.
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:) alphdude
first I think your confused and need to scroll back to my prior posting on this subject.... I was responding to JJourdan's post as for your opion...
I am well aware of my self responsability as you would have known had you bother to read my previous posting on this subject....
and as for the idea of " Oh by the way retirement funds maintained by the companies are not protected. If the company goes under so does your retirment in some cases."
I realize that but I was trying to show how the company uses unions to manipulate employees....
I am not anti union but as it stands now I feel we dont need the added segragation... I can find no bennefit in having a union in place... we already have some great health insurance and benefits being offered by the current companies not to say all of them but they do try to fallow suite to our benefit. And all I see a union doing is making money on our dues and making it harder for us to get work....
and as for the idea of .....
You should have been fired for discussing information that may cause your company harm. (salaries and perdiem rates are consider proprietary information that may be used for bidding purposes)
Those new arriving techs were the ones who came in and spilled the beans on the pay differents and not all of the residing techs were from the same company anyway....
but as I stated before some of the residing techs were from the same company and still be paid differently....
we as techs disscuss company pay practise a lot regardless of what you think only we are all not so bold as to go into another site and start havoc with spuing facts of pay diferentals...
but we offer insight into how are company compares to others.... if a tech hears one company pays better or offers better bennies then thats where he goes the next time when appling for work ....its the american way.... ::)
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slo go is in management and so am I,
eye yam? sumbeech! dang, duz dis mean eye git a raise? or are yinz trying to phil better? jist kidding, alphadude, chill....'k?
re: alla posts bout me knot wanting open discussion.... rong! i do, but i gits sew tarred of alla old crap recycled over 'n over again. i don't think that ennybuddy ina nuke power plant biz duzant know that 1500 was a freeking raw busted deal. ona udder hand, no buddy outside of nukes has ever herd of i.b.e.w. local 1500. i've won lotsa money wagering with i.b.e.w. members ('n udder union members too, i try to fleece equally) about a national local union. never lost yet, some times it takes a little longer than others to get paid. but, i do appreciated information that may be considered anti-union such as that tina is posting. those posts are fairly factual, at least based on my knowledge of some of her subject matter such as the caterpillar incidents. some other posts i read 'n don't know about so i either file for future reference or go google. but i don't discourage them.
re: different pay rates..... duh! that's been going on as long as there have been rent a techs © 'n staff augmentation companies. iffen ya got 4 companies ona site, ya probably got 5 different pay rates going for the same level of tech while they're working side by side (sorta gives a mental cluster pic now duzant it?) 'n diem has historically bin different too. i remember when uncle brucie usta always pay more'n the udder contractors on a site, because he wood knot bid the prime contract but always won a backup. but that is the nature of the biz. as long as everyone is negotiating their own way, it will always be that way. if a group would band together and negotiate as one, then they all make the same. as wuz done by the co-op in da 70s, see page one of this thread.
'n last butt knot leest.... iffen ya'd rather go talk to a wall, ya'd probably apreesheate what yinz wood here more. butt, dat's only my humbull opinun. ;)
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So how do we know that what you are saying JJ isn’t misinformation? Just because you say it’s so, it is?
Well, when I post them, you all can al be the judge. first off, I don't believe everything either, but it doesn't take a real rocket scientist to seperate the fact from fiction. It is all researchable here on the internet, but most is just common sense. I'm glad to see everyone is posting, both pro and con. SlogGlo likes it too, I can tell. Can everyone understand what he is saying, or dew eye knead to iturpurt four yew? ;)
JJ
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Why not take a poll for those who want a union and would sign an intent card versus those who do not want a union. Simple. Agree to disagree! May be even add a link to those who want to contact a union representative. Anything I missed?
This is not a bad idea. Another would be to organize a central meeting place for those who are serious about getting something started or at least talk about it to meet after the next season of outages. Maybe a couple of regional type places. Seems like we all do a fair amount of traveling and those who are serious about this would make a trip if it was within' a reasonable distance (few hundred miles or less). It is always easy and cheap to get to Vegas for a couple of days, particularly in the off season. I am currently not interested in the union but I am also not so close minded to think that I don't know everything and might be interested in a get together to meet some of my peers, have a good time and throw ideas around.
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Sloglow likes it too, I can tell. Can everyone understand what he is saying, or dew eye knead to iturpurt four yew? ;)
JJ
When I first started looking at this web site I have to admit that I found his writings to be a bit frustrating, now strange as it may be I find it quite amusing. I have to have respect for someone that sticks to something for that long because it just can't be easy to type like that all of the time...or then again...maybe it's for real?! If that's the case, then I am sorry man...when did the accident happen? Or is this what we can all look forward to after many years of exposure...I'm getting scared now.
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Itz haw yew tock iffen yur frum Picksberg! ;)
JJ
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...from a management perspective, what will the outage contract rp environment look like in the next ten years...
It's getting harder every outage! There are fewer and fewer techs. Lots are having health issues, and some are waking up dead. check the fallen list here. It's getting pretty long. SloGlo and I have a lot of friends that have made that list, as I'll bet that everyone that reads this, knows a few. The foreign techs are helping a little, but not without challenges. We are trying to staff a few more Jr's, and hope they make Sr and return for us, but there's no garuntee. It's going to get worse before it gets better.
JJ
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At the request of shawneeman, here it is! Would you sign a card? Remember the IBEW would like 65% or better to insure a win, but ony 30% is required to pettition the NLRB. 8)
JJ
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Why not take a poll for those who want a union and would sign an intent card versus those who do not want a union.
Ok I started the poll. Don't forget to vote!
JJ :-*
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...from a management perspective, what will the outage contract rp environment look like in the next ten years...
there are quite a few different scenarios whose play will affect the contract rp envirionment:
1) in ten years there may be new power plants coming on line. these should suck road techs into house positions.
2) in ten years, a lot of the current experienced 3.1 techs will be on the porch at the retirement home.
3) in ten years most of the current jr techs will have crossed the time line into the 3.1 realm, minus those who have departed the ranks of meter swingers for management or burger flipping.
4) in ten years there should be schooling more prevalent for hp tech training. will education become more equivalent to time spent for 3.1? axe your local ansi rep.
5) in ten years there should be more jobs created in the nuclear fuel cycle, from mining to reprocessing/disposal. this too could deplete the road tech ranks.
6) in ten years there should be more stringent requirements for work in secure sites. this may inhibit manpower growth.
7) there are some other scenarios, however i have been asked not to post some of these so i do not feel that i can go into them.
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would my 1500 card get grandfathered in?
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Sure SloGlo, if you still have it.We are at 50% wonder who the 2 dissenters are? I'm appointing you shop steward. Management won't have a clue as to what you are saying!
JJ
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Sure SloGlo, if you still have it.We are at 50% wonder who the 2 dissenters are? I'm appointing you shop steward. Management won't have a clue as to what you are saying!
JJ
but neither would we
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Alright I will throw this out there. Take it easy on me though. If we dont need a union why do we need a company to represent us? I havent heard many complaints about Diablo Canyon.
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biloxoi blues.... maybe ya'd better run da diablo canyon staffing scenario. although i tink i know watt it is, i never worked their 'n may knot understand it kerreckly.
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well you dont need a company to represent you if you can post the bond and the employer will take you as a 1099 type. the bond insurance for techs runs about 2k or more a year (rates drop as your working time under a bond increases) each company (nuke) asks for a different bonding rate so you call your agent and he adjust the premium. HOWEVER it is not common practice for utilities to accept 1099 HP techs- its has been done but not too often. you get paid a straight wage (bid rate per hour) no ot or perdiem rates apply its the bid rate (eg for techs about $36 to $50 an hour is about right) PAY your taxes every quarter or you will be talking 1 on 1 with the IRS. You do get a lot of deductions- (no perdiem but deductions) which are housing, business phone, transportation, office in house (audit point big time) etc. it has its advantages.. you get to select your own insurance, 401k, pay your own Soc. Security, Medicare, State and Federal Taxes and this SHALL be done every quarter.. SOOO its a lot of fun.
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...is there the potential for future regulatory relief induced reductions...
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The reason I stated Diablo Canyon, and someone tell me if Im wrong or right, is that there is no Bartlett or Atlantic Group, etc. And because of this Diablo has the highest payrate per hour (except wolfcreek, which by the way will go back to normal rates next outage) Does Diablo have a permanent recruiter? We all talk about union taking money out of our pockets and freedom of choices how bout the companies we work for dont they skim off the top. Does anyone really know how much the companies skim off the top? Thanks for the info alphadude.
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...I feel we as rct's are segragated enough by not all sites accepting our DOE Core Certifications and not all sites requiring NEU testing proceedure and those with the claim that people taking the NRRPT without putting the required time in making it non ligament in some peoples ...
...not to worry my friend...big changes coming...
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George, you don't have to join, but it would be in your best interest. Things could be so much better with unity, and a set of fair rules that you decide. Oh yes, and a contract that they can't change at will, like they do their promises!
JJ
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:) Care to elaborate :)
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The reason I stated Diablo Canyon, and someone tell me if Im wrong or right, is that there is no Bartlett or Atlantic Group, etc. And because of this Diablo has the highest payrate per hour (except wolfcreek, which by the way will go back to normal rates next outage) Does Diablo have a permanent recruiter? We all talk about union taking money out of our pockets and freedom of choices how bout the companies we work for dont they skim off the top. Does anyone really know how much the companies skim off the top? Thanks for the info alphadude.
who signs yer check? dew they pay area consistent per diem? is the hourly rate on par with house pay? what insurance company supplies the med/dental/death/ etc. benefits and is it included or taken out of your pay? is diablo canyon a union shop or open? is per diem paid on a scheduled day off? an unscheduled day off? what travel pay in and out is offered?
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...is there the potential for future regulatory relief induced reductions...
oh, that hertz! all this roflmao is gonna leave bruises. ;)
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...I feel we as rct's are segragated enough by not all sites accepting our DOE Core Certifications and not all sites requiring NEU testing proceedure and those with the claim that people taking the NRRPT without putting the required time in making it non ligament in some peoples ...
yinz alluding to a conquered body that was already divided? ain't dis da nature of da biz?
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Has anyone looked into the legal issues surrounding formation of a union. Check the NLRB web site. It is my understanding that you would need a collective bargaining agreement with each utility.
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its starting to sound like the smart questions are gitting axed this time around.
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Has anyone looked into the legal issues surrounding formation of a union. Check the NLRB web site. It is my understanding that you would need a collective bargaining agreement with each utility.
Not true - the utility is not the employer - big Blue or the A team are the employer. The contract would be with the employer. That employer would then be obligated to include contract provisions within their contract with the utility as necessary. Craft contractor companies like Stone & Webster, Bechtel, etc do this all the time. They even have the added problem of having to deal with multiple local craft unions, although local building and trades councils usually negotiate common agreements for work.
The utilites don't give a R/A what the contractor has for union / non union - they evaluate based upon cost, reliability, ability to complete the job, etc.
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who signs yer check? dew they pay area consistent per diem? is the hourly rate on par with house pay? what insurance company supplies the med/dental/death/ etc. benefits and is it included or taken out of your pay? is diablo canyon a union shop or open? is per diem paid on a scheduled day off? an unscheduled day off? what travel pay in and out is offered?
Diablo did away with contractor companies entirely in the early 90s. All are brought in as temp house employees, and get the same as house do. PD, travel, etc is the same as the regular house gets if they go out of town for work / training.
I would love to see more plants do this. But, at least with Entergy, multiple sites each have different contracts, and the pay / travel / PD that has been negotiated can get steep. We get local IRS rates, wages while traveling, holiday / DT / OT rates as per our home contracts. Can get confusing to the other plant when they hafta follow 3 contracts. Of course, house techs traveling within the utility are already trained / qualified under an accredited training program, and are a more or less known quantity. We literally show up with our security badge in-hand, get our TLD, and a tour, and off to work we go. We are even able to review procedures,schedules, etc from our home plant before we leave, so we are familiar with the assignment.
But, it would be good to see more utilities doing what Diablo did - they NEVER have problems staffing.
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Diablo did away with contractor companies entirely in the early 90s. All are brought in as temp house employees, and get the same as house do. PD, travel, etc is the same as the regular house gets if they go out of town for work / training.
I would love to see more plants do this. But, at least with Entergy, multiple sites each have different contracts, and the pay / travel / PD that has been negotiated can get steep. We get local IRS rates, wages while traveling, holiday / DT / OT rates as per our home contracts. Can get confusing to the other plant when they hafta follow 3 contracts. Of course, house techs traveling within the utility are already trained / qualified under an accredited training program, and are a more or less known quantity. We literally show up with our security badge in-hand, get our TLD, and a tour, and off to work we go. We are even able to review procedures,schedules, etc from our home plant before we leave, so we are familiar with the assignment.
But, it would be good to see more utilities doing what Diablo did - they NEVER have problems staffing.
i'm taking it that as temp house mice, you get a temp union card. what mechanism is available to carry the card after leaving? what's the cobra like on the insurances? as temp utility employees, do you have to pay california taxes or are you allowed to have yer home state withheld? are locals given preference in the hiring?
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Do the techs get travel in and out each day going to work at Diablo?
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Lots of reasons diablo can staff. !. Union Contract=Good pay, and benefits. 2. Location=Nicer weather than 9 Mile, Perry Fermi, Point Beach, ect. also on the ocean with things to do. 3. I can't verify this, but some who have worked there will. "They treat you right". I don't know if there is a n option to retain your membership. I kind of doubt it, but it's a very good question. i would keep it up if i was able to. Cobra is law for 18 months, but it's so high most can't afford it, and it may be with a provider you can't find with other empoyers, ie Bartlett or Atlantic. Bartletts blueCross was actually very good when I worked there. Health care is a top reason for getting a union. I said on a previous post, there is economy of numbers. 2000 people can negoitiate a better rate than 30. the IBEW probably already has something in place that works nationwide. If you have BlueCross of MA with Bartlett and you go to the doctor in say TX or WA, do you think you may be slightly out of network? Not sure how Blue cross works anymore, because it doesn't impact me anymore, but I do carry Blue Cross, I pay extra for it, but I like it. it works well for me.
JJ ;D
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Not true - the utility is not the employer - big Blue or the A team are the employer. The contract would be with the employer. That employer would then be obligated to include contract provisions within their contract with the utility as necessary. Craft contractor companies like Stone & Webster, Bechtel, etc do this all the time. They even have the added problem of having to deal with multiple local craft unions, although local building and trades councils usually negotiate common agreements for work.
The utilites don't give a R/A what the contractor has for union / non union - they evaluate based upon cost, reliability, ability to complete the job, etc.
Snake,
They do care! About their precious money, and control. If they have a non union site, they are leary of intrducing the dreaded union virus, because it spreads very rapidly, when exposed to break trailer gossip. Hp's get mad as hell when they find out someone is getting a nckle more an hour, or someone got a free hat. The reasons the contract company will have to ressist is, they have to compete with non union low ball bidders, and it will be difficult if the utilities think they can staff. They want to keep as much of their precious budget money, so there is more for their golden parachute when THEY retire. They aren't worried about you or me. They're taking our benefits, while increasing theirs. Read the papers, or better yet, some utilities proxy statements. It's America, capitalisim at its finest. They hold the pursestrings, don't you dare try to tug on them! Paybacks are a bitch! :'(
JJ
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its starting to sound like the smart questions are gitting axed this time around.
I've got a few...
Of what group would you need 65% ? Wouldn't it work the other way around; it's completely voluntary whether you sign up and pay dues for the IBEW 1500 card, and by the wonders of the internet, one signs up on the Hall(s) near the outages one wishes to wrk, as JJ described in an earlier post? In those states that are closed shop, "too bad so sad" you shoulda had the card?
Do we know if the IBEW or OCAW or whoever, would supply the Hazwopper , NRRPT , Core training, etc?
Thanks!
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The problem is the National Labor Realtions Act excludes independent contractors from coverage under this law. Without NLRB support it will never hold up. www.nlrb.com
In order to form a union you need to have a collective bargaining contract. If you want a union fine, kazaam all members on this site are union members of the local 5.27. Now what are you going to do with the union status. Without a collelctive bargaining contract you cannot force the site to abide by any of the rules that your union sets forth. In fact, it is in this CBC that the pay and benefits are spelled out. The only benefit you could achieve from a union, is to pay dues normally 1-4 dollars per hour of wages earned to the union hall and then have them lobby for more restrictions on who can and cannot perform your job.
Oh and by the way unions are not recognized on federal employment sites, so now all the DOE techs are out.
Not true - the utility is not the employer - big Blue or the A team are the employer. The contract would be with the employer. That employer would then be obligated to include contract provisions within their contract with the utility as necessary. Craft contractor companies like Stone & Webster, Bechtel, etc do this all the time. They even have the added problem of having to deal with multiple local craft unions, although local building and trades councils usually negotiate common agreements for work.
The utilites don't give a R/A what the contractor has for union / non union - they evaluate based upon cost, reliability, ability to complete the job, etc.
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when i have been on a hazwoper site, most of the unions supplied the training to their members free of charge. re: nrrpt, you'd have to ask a union shop if the local supplied training, the utility supplied it, or nobuddy cared. re: core, see previous, nrrpt.
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[quote author=youngrv link=topic=9829.msg51682#msg51682 date=1168732030
Oh and by the way unions are not recognized on federal employment sites, so now all the DOE techs are out.
[/quote]
excuse me???????
Title VII of the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 (CSRA), established into law a system for federal employees to form, join, or assist any labor organization, or to refrain from any such activity, freely and without fear of penalty or reprisal. Once formed, these labor organizations exclusively represent the bargaining unit employees in all matters affecting their working conditions. This portion of the CSRA U.S. Code (Chapter 71 of Title 5 of the U.S. Code) is referred to as the Federal Service Labor-Management Relations Statute (the Statute.)
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As usual with laws you have to dig into the code to understand all of the loopholes. I neither have the time nor the inclination to argue with you but I can cut and paste also. Why do you keep talking about it. Call the International Association of Machinist, United Steelworkers, any union would love to take your money in the form of dues. But, as I said before, forming the union is easy; getting a contract is going to be the hard part.
Workers Excluded from NLRB Coverage
The NLRA does not include coverage for all workers. The Act specifically excludes from its coverage individuals who are:
employed as agricultural laborers
employed in the domestic service of any person or family in a home
employed by a parent or spouse
employed as an independent contractor
employed as a supervisor (supervisors that have been discriminated against for refusing to violate the NLRA may be covered)
employed by an employer subject to the Railway Labor Act, such as railroads and airlines
employed by Federal, state, or local government
employed by any other person who is not an employer as defined in the NLRA
When you argue with an idiot he will bring you down to his level and then when only do to experience.
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employed by Federal, state, or local government
That has nothing to do with DOE RCT's. They work for a sub contractor, or prime contractor, ala Bechtel.
There are TONS of unions at DOE sites, I know Oak Ridge has them, and the RCT's at Hanford are Union, I believe.
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youngrv,
Who are you talking about?
National Labor Realtions Act
Workers Excluded from NLRB Coverage
The NLRA
Are these three separate organizations or are you attempting to be one with the SloGlo?
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I've got a few...
Of what group would you need 65% ? Wouldn't it work the other way around; it's completely voluntary whether you sign up and pay dues for the IBEW 1500 card, and by the wonders of the internet, one signs up on the Hall(s) near the outages one wishes to wrk, as JJ described in an earlier post? In those states that are closed shop, "too bad so sad" you shoulda had the card?
Do we know if the IBEW or OCAW or whoever, would supply the Hazwopper , NRRPT , Core training, etc?
Thanks!
Buddy,
The group you need 65% of would be the eligible voters as determined by the NLRB. Who would that be? You would need to recruit anyone and everyone that may be interested in joining. The NLRB will have a hearing. Unless, if you have over 50%, you can ask the employers to be automatically recognized without a vote. Better chance of getting Elvis to sign up. At the hearing the empoyers and employees argue as to who should be included or not. At Brunswick we did it right at the local courthouse. On a national level who knows where, but I'd kind of bet on DC. As for the training, the IBEW could provide any and all that would be desired. All they need to do is get their trainers certified by OSHA, and they can train you. I got my Hazwhopper, supervisors, Asbestos, supervisor, Lead Abatement, and supervisor through my union at no cost. They also paid my wages. Paid for my motel, and travel to PA from NC when I moved down here. Yeah they only care about taking your money! As for the NRRPT, they just have to ask permission to proctor the test. I believe all they need is a member that holds the certification to sign and it can happen also. we would have members that could and would make that happen. ;D
JJ
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The problem is the National Labor Realtions Act excludes independent contractors from coverage under this law. Without NLRB support it will never hold up. www.nlrb.com
In order to form a union you need to have a collective bargaining contract. If you want a union fine, kazaam all members on this site are union members of the local 5.27. Now what are you going to do with the union status. Without a collelctive bargaining contract you cannot force the site to abide by any of the rules that your union sets forth. In fact, it is in this CBC that the pay and benefits are spelled out. The only benefit you could achieve from a union, is to pay dues normally 1-4 dollars per hour of wages earned to the union hall and then have them lobby for more restrictions on who can and cannot perform your job.
Oh and by the way unions are not recognized on federal employment sites, so now all the DOE techs are out.
First,
Thank you for providing the link. This is a government run site, so it isn't biased one way or the other. It's not exactly fair , but what did you expect from the Feds? JJ isn't sugar coating anything there. Questions, go look it up there or other goverment sites. The IBEW also has web a site, but you all might think they are liars, but if you have a lick of sense I hope you would be able to tell. Now 1 to 4 dollars per hour seems a we bit ludicrus, try $20 to $40/ month depending if you want the A or B level of coverage. Lobby for more restrictions, yeah they will if that's what you want, because you are their boss. I don't think thats the way my union will go as long as I can still have disscussions like this and can vote on it! I worked at a DOE facility for several years, and I was union for most of the time. Ohhh did we make good money! Double time, meal money and show up pay, travel pay, and we were local! Paid rest periods. The place was called Shippingport, and I was a shop steward for a good bit of my time there! 8)
JJ
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Diablo did away with contractor companies entirely in the early 90s. All are brought in as temp house employees, and get the same as house do. PD, travel, etc is the same as the regular house gets if they go out of town for work / training.
But, it would be good to see more utilities doing what Diablo did - they NEVER have problems staffing.
Columbia also hires temps directly, but only during non-outage times. Apparently they can't build up as deep of resume base as Diablo, because they still use a contract company during outages.
It will be interesting to see if Diablo has a deep enough resume base to staff their SGRPs.
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Do the techs get travel in and out each day going to work at Diablo?
I haven't worked there in a couple of years, but I remember it only being for overtime days...
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hmmmm, so far I havent heard any bad things about the non-contractor plants. Since IM from Florida (and we do not know how to vote) can I have a write-in vote?
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...is there the potential for future regulatory relief induced reductions...
What exactly do you mean by this? Are you thinking that the NRC is going to decrease the amont of required RP oversite? Not hardly! Everytime we have an event, ie: Davis Besse, regulatory oversite is increased, not decreased. The utilities are still trying to reduce are numbers though, also decreased PM's and surveilences for maintenence. There will come a time when the NRC says stop, you need to do more not less! Maybe you were reffering to the implementation of the new CFR limiting hours worked by safety related individuals. This will impact us a little, but not as much as it will Ops. We currently work massive amounts of overtime. the NRC is going to lower the caps that we currently have. it will apply to when a site is operating, and not so much as when in outage. But it'll all depend on the knee jerk reactions of each utility. We'll know better soon, it's comming soon to a nuke near you!
JJ
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Columbia also hires temps directly, but only during non-outage times. Apparently they can't build up as deep of resume base as Diablo, because they still use a contract company during outages.
Bet ya'll didn't know that Progress can do this too. All of the ex House techs come in directly for Progress, bypassing Bartlett. I didn't know about this, and also don't know how it affects the pay structure, ie: hourly rate, per diem, hospitalization, pension, 401K, etc. I wil find out ASAP, and let you all know. This is how Progress also hires at CR3, but they still use Bartlett for HP's and a few permenant "core" deconners.
JJ
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Ohhh MY My, and the gap widens! :'( All of you guests that are viewing this, need to get off your A__es and register to put in your 2 cents worth! For or against, it doesn't matter. Remember this is one of the most important issues that will impact you for the rest of your carreer. Some of you may think that only the techs view and comment here, but everyone in the world is watching and may formulate some directions as to what all is posted here. Thanks again Mike! ;)
JJ
PS, JJ's two cents worth: I can't believe that a majority of you are satisfied with being treated as second class (or worse), working for substandard wages, low perdiem, inadequte or non existant health care( increasing rates), lousy or non existant 401K, no representation. Remember if you choose to be on your own, you will really be on your own. Don't whine to any house tech about ANYTHING! We can't help you, only you can help you!! 8)
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Why should the companies get money if the plant wants the tech as a temporary?
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I take offence to that comment. Maybe that is how you are treated, but once again you do not speak for me in any way.
SGT, sorry I made a typo, but I fixed it. It should read "JJ's two cents worth" I'm glad you take offense to that, as well you should! You get treated differently than do house techs, and utility shared resources. Not by me, but by both of our employers, the utility. I have heard it said that "a lot of the contractors aren't as profficent as their utility counterparts". Now if you are precieved to be substandard, and are treated differently, wouldn't that justify my statement of second class, or worse? I treat all of the contractors under my direction with the dignity and respect that they deserve. I never assign them a task that I wouldn't do myself, in fact I take all of the nasty jobs myself, because I still remember what it was like to be dumped on by the utility, and some contract Sr HP's when I was a Jr. Unfortunately I do speak for you indirectly. If the union is voted in, then the majority rules, you don't have to participate or pay dues. But if a contract is signed it affects everybody, and if you have issues (and you and others like you wil!)the union still deffends you. If you choose to not participate, and you've made it crystal clear that you won't. When the contract is being drafted and negotiated, you won't have any say in the matter, like you do here, so let it all out, and let me have both barrels. I made a choice a little while ago to take one for the "TEAM" and I've stepped to the forefront, and am doing just that. As a result, I'm being treated far worse than you can even imagine. Now i'm taking more than "one" by stepping up here, and have absolutely nothing to gain.I don't hide, and never have. I use my real name here, and have crossed paths with a good percentage of the members. I don't understand the personal attacks, I'm just the messanger, and am only looking out for everyones best interests, yes even yours. If you don't want to play, I respect that. But the system being what it is, you are affected, like it or not. :P
Respectfully Yours,
JJ
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Why should the companies get money if the plant wants the tech as a temporary?
bb Clarify this. Do you mean , Why do we have a middle man, ie Bartlett, Atlantic, ect? A lot of this stems from legalities. The contract company provides another layer of security when things go wrong.
JJ
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Well I guess its good to have lots of security(more money would be better). Yeah I was kinda getting at why have the middle man. I know there are a lot of techs who call the plants or other house techs ( I would never do that)instead of going through the companies. We had one of those chiefs that stated that they will try to stop that. We all laughed and rolled our eyes.
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Well I guess its good to have lots of security(more money would be better). Yeah I was kinda getting at why have the middle man. I know there are a lot of techs who call the plants or other house techs ( I would never do that)instead of going through the companies. We had one of those chiefs that stated that they will try to stop that. We all laughed and rolled our eyes.
Some things will never change, with or without a union. I understand why some call though. Anyone ever hear "We sent your resume, we just haven't heard back yet" To find out the utility never saw you resume?
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Some things will never change, with or without a union. I understand why some call though. Anyone ever hear "We sent your resume, we just haven't heard back yet" To find out the utility never saw you resume?
reminds me of the time, back ina day, when rad told me that da beav didn't want me as a returnee. i let it slide for a cupla years while i hada good time rolling coast to coast. then i felt it was time to come home 'n rad had competition on site. so i called into the plant, talked with ed who told me that the beav never, ever held anything against me. so i called rad's competition 'n went on site with them. had quite a good time tweaking the rad services forement, too.
which just goes to show ya, iffen ya only got one venue of communication yinz don't get the whole story.
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JJ, must of been a different company than the one I work with. Mine would never tell me a story. Must be one of those companies that are out of business.
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Heck I love my fellow Carnies! We get to know each other really well when we are fighting over seats at our two tables. Especially when we have to pick our dinner up and stand outside break area so an ALARA brief can happen. But when it comes down to it, I would rather have one of my fellow contract RP Techs cover my back on a job!! Like it or not things are going to change in the future.
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But when it comes down to it, I would rather have one of my fellow contract RP Techs cover my back on a job!! Like it or not things are going to change in the future.
amen, shawneeman. da question is, wattcha gonna due? nutting personal, 'k shawneeman? it's a generic question. ;)
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Heck I love my fellow Carnies! We get to know each other really well when we are fighting over seats at our two tables. Especially when we have to pick our dinner up and stand outside break area so an ALARA brief can happen. Yep, as I was told when I was upgrading the RP Tech training program in WI, you contractors are a dime a dozen. But when it comes down to it, I would rather have one of my fellow contract RP Techs cover my back on a job!! Like it or not things are going to change in the future.
Here, Here, I'll second all of that, except I also trust my fellow house techs here at Brunswick. Shawneeman I'm sure you know most of them, great bunch, close knit family. We watch out for each other, and the roadies too! Carnie is a midwestern derogatory name, probably coined somewhere in the "Great Corn Desert", and I don't like using it! You're right, lots of things are changing even as we speak. I just hope I can wake up the silent majority in time to take full advantage of their position of strength. If you snooze you loose! Keep the faith!
JJ 8)
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Heck we had are own cordinator tell us we were a dime a dozen.
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???
I have been readin all the stuff that is on this onion thing till im sick of it. sew eye reckon ill put my 2 sense in.
in '94 at fernald the local ibedubya, was contacted by a house tech, to try 2 git there oinionlabel in the house. well myself and a hand full of other house follks did knot care to have this forced on sew being aginst the movement, i started a counter movement aginst the onion lable. well the sr. rcts were spreadn rumours to the jrs. that the orginizashun was gonna get them momoney, mo bennys and all of the uther stuff, that dreams are made of.
manigmint chose not to take sides, but because i was determine to win this war, and thats whut it turned out 2 bee a war zone, i made a contact with the nlrb lawyers in WDC, and they clued me in on how the union label works. being that we are in the state of lost in middle amerika ohio, the rite2work opshun didnot apply. but the nlrb sent me nfo statn that if the label was voted in, the non-label wearin bunch didnot have to join up and WE still git the same shake as the UNIONLABEL.
sorry bout the ramblin on, but yawl need to no that if a union gits voted in, whatever package they offer, has to be negociated, and voted on, like vac. ins. pay ect...
we won at fernald the union label was defeated, but during the campain, and afterwards ther were sum bitter follks, I, being the instigator, had my office broke n2 and some items came up missing.
nalldorespect,
rapidray
PEACE
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Here’s a question for you JJ since you seem to be the pied piper for this union thing and have nothing to lose since you are house.
If the union thing goes through but let’s say 35% of the technicians don’t support or join. Now a plant they normally have worked at for years is now a closed shop or not in a right to work state, they can’t work there! I guess in your world that’s too bad.
You have reduced the work force, cut fellow technicians income and benefits, hurt their families simply to benefit a few and put more money in the union leadership’s pockets. At that point what is the difference between the union and the company you spend so much time fighting.
How do you feel about that?
Well lets see, if it's a closed shop, he would have had to join a union then. So i don't think it would be a bad thing to ask him to join his own union. One that he could have a voice in and help make policy, and negotiate for the betterment of his fellow techs. Hey he or she might start to enjoy it if they would give it a chance. It can and will work, there are no problems without solutions. if you don't want to join and reap the benefits. Sit in the corner and enjoy the ride. Just don't complain when it isn't your way. If you don't belong, you have no voice. I'll be there to voice my opinion in my union, and everything won't be exactly like I want it, but I accept the fact that the majority rules, and maybe I look at things differently. There will be much more good than bad, I want and need this and you do too, but you're just to stubborn to admit it. The union doesn't cut the workforce, they fight to try and keep jobs, raise wages, and increase benefits. I don't know how you can make the accusations that you do. How much do you think the Head of the IBEW is worth? His compensation pales in comparison to any of the CEO's of the utility companies that we all have worked for over the years. He has way more responsabilties, manages many more people, and probably puts in more hours. I don't understand why you can't comprehend what is going on in the world around you. Read some papers, watch a little TV (news programs). See what the utilities have in store for the working class, and then see what kind of raises they take for themselves. Hell most of them outearn the President of the United States, and if they just went away, their company wouldn't miss a beat! there is a difference, and I know it, I'm very sorry that you don't.
JJ :)
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Again I ask the question no one will answer. Who gets asked to a particular job?
I will rephrase. 4 plants are going down at the same time, I like to go to plant A, and am a long time returnee. Pay and plant reputation are better than the other 3 plants. I happen to be on the bottom of the said "call list" when staffing for plant A comes around. Will I get asked ahead of non returnees, or be penalized? Will the freedom to chose plants to work go away? We all have plants we like to work. Does having a union restrict my job choices? I like being able to travel and not always work at my "home plants". I do both as I choose. Does this add another layer of people I need to go through to get the job I want?
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I am not going to claim to be an expert on the matter at hand but I have some experience with unions from another life. I had some discussion with a few guys that worked for some of the other trades at one of my outages last fall and this is the way I understood what they were telling me.
There is the chance that you could lose out on the opportunity to go to a plant that you like or were a returnee to in the past due to someone having more senority. They explained to me that to a certain degree they had some choice of where they wanted to work if they had a "connection" at that plant.
One of the biggest reasons that I have always been opposed to unions is that the merits of your job performance and attendance play a much smaller part of how well you do in your career than being a freelancer like we are now. I am not speaking of just money. We already get paid differently due to senority (Jr., 18.1, 3.1, 5yr Sr. etc.). That to me is fine and pretty much fair in my opinion. Not having the choice of where you want to work or having more restrictions placed on that choice due only to time on the job is unfair to the techs that work hard and take pride in their performance. Every job I go to it is my personal goal to have an open invitation to come back for future outages if I so choose, so far so good. That means that you do a good job, show up to work every day and be smart about what you are bitching about when you are there.
So, to your question, I believe that YES, it will add another layer of people that you need to go through to get the job in some cases, and even more frustrating, it will at times be a layer of lazy people that just simply have more time in than you.
Remember, this is my opinion based on several conversations with card carrying trades workers.
Oh ya, many of these guys didn't get perdiem and did have a pension. I'd rather have the perdiem...don't know if we would have to give that up or not, but it concerns me. Again, I am not the authority, I just have my opinions.
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ya know, it wood be good iffen sum of da union crafts loafing on this site would join in 'n give some answers to questions being posed here. obviously, alot of the people don't believe watt jjordan is saying. other input would help.
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sgt, so is your closed shop union scenario any different than if a different company takes the contract at your favorite plant and offers pay rates of 20% less than was paid during the previous outage. now the workers have to choose between making less money or going to another site or sit out on the unemployment line. i know, you'll say you won't take that pay rate. there will be some who will, less experienced looking for the job with responsibility to put on their resume. now the slots are filled. whatcha gonna due?
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This is going to happen at Wolf Creek, where this last outage the techs received @30 dollars and hour because of supply and demand. The company's middle man came in and told us that dont expect these wages again. That person had nothing to do with that increase,(the cordinator is probably the one most responsible for our raises) but the middle man does have something to do with our decrease. Does anyone really care who we work for as long as the money is right and its where we want to be? Who does the companies work for? Why would they ever bid a cap in travel pay if they cared about us? The bottom line is that companies compete with other companies for the contract and who does this hurt? To me the companies are like the union. They limit our freedom and they reach in our pockets. Just my stupid opinion.
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???
I have been readin all the stuff that is on this onion thing till im sick of it. sew eye reckon ill put my 2 sense in.
nalldorespect,
rapidray
PEACE
rapidray!!! sari eye mist dis befour. phinally, a poast eye kin reed!
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Don't feel bad, it seems others have asked the question just in a different manner. And still no straight answer. :o
George, I gave it as straight as I could! Everything is purely speculation until you get a agreement signed. I'm going to vote for the one that say 6'0" tall slightly overweight, and balding, divorced male techs have preference. Piss on seniority!!! OK now that I have your attention. I personally agree that senority should not be the sole determining factor, and it doesn't have to be. There are other fair and equitable way to do things. I did post a scenario on this thread, it's about 2/3rds of the way down on page 4. I know it's hard to keep up with all of the information here. The utilities should be able to hire their returnees first, I agree. The contractor I worked for could take me anywhere in the country I wanted to go with him to work, the union didn't care. I was a card carring member and a permenant employee of contractor X. everything was cool. When he ran out of steady employees, he then had to go to the hall, and go by the list that I desribed in that post. i would have pasted it here, but I'm a dumb ass and couldn't figure out how to go back that far. Remember, theese are all just purely speculation, you can pick the most unfair and resonable way to do this, all it takes is 50% plus 1 vote for the majority, and it will be your contract of choice.Hope I helped a little, If not stay tuned, I'll be here for a while.
JJ
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Same stuff rehashed over and over. I'm done here, bottom line if it comes to a vote, mine will be no.
GWB
Same here. I do however give you JJ, credit for bringing the debate and being so persistant in providing information as you see it without getting too emotional and pissed off with those of us who disagree with you.
You have definately been sucessfull in stiring a bunch of unemployed HP's up. I can't wait to go back to work in a couple of weeks so I can do something other than look at this site. :) I need more hobbies when I am off!
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Bat Man,
Oh ya, many of these guys didn't get perdiem and did have a pension. I'd rather have the perdiem...don't know if we would have to give that up or not, but it concerns me. Again, I am not the authority, I just have my opinions.
Why can't you have both? I do, I stay in a room you can't afford, get the top travel milage, no stinking cap, meal money, a pension, a 401K with a 6% match(6% of $100,00.00 or better every year), not just the first $100.00, and an outage bounus if I get rid of the contractors early and come in under budget. Tell me why you don't deserve this all too! That's what all of your negative posters are telling me. You contractors just aren't worth it. The union will try to help you get some or all of this. I think you deserve it!
JJ ;D
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I guess it’s true, once you shovel it for so long, you just don’t smell it any more!
This may be a concept that is difficult for you to comprehend but there are quite a few road technicians that do not believe or want to join a union. So I will pose the question to you once again, black and white.
If the union thing goes through but let’s say 35% of the technicians don’t support or join the union. Now a plant they have normally worked at for years is now a closed shop or not in a right to work state, they can’t work there! I guess in your world that’s too bad.
You have reduced the work force, cut fellow technicians income and benefits, hurt their families simply to benefit a few.
What freedom of choice do they now have? Join the union so they can work, or don’t join the union and be unemployed. Sounds a lot like blackmail…………
Nothing democratic about that, purely socialism at it’s finest.
You still have trouble comprehending, and you always seem to make it personal. You must be in supervision! I'll do a little reseach and break it down for you so you quit asking the same repetative questions. i thought my answer was clear but maybe I was mistaken, I'll try to clarify.
Thanks,
JJ 8)
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I guess it’s true, once you shovel it for so long, you just don’t smell it any more!
This may be a concept that is difficult for you to comprehend but there are quite a few road technicians that do not believe or want to join a union.
No need to beat the guy up. Even though I don't agree with JJ I do believe that his intentions are for the good of the whole. I think that is why JJ started these posts, to find out where his peers were with the idea of a union. Obviously he would like to pursuade us to his side and he is doing a fine job of trying to sell his side to those of us who don't want it without trying to abuse us for the disagreement. Here is a little Karma for ya JJ. For the effort. 8)
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Why can't you have both? I do, I stay in a room you can't afford, get the top travel milage, no stinking cap, meal money, a pension, a 401K with a 6% match(6% of $100,00.00 or better every year), not just the first $100.00, and an outage bounus if I get rid of the contractors early and come in under budget. Tell me why you don't deserve this all too! That's what all of your negative posters are telling me. You contractors just aren't worth it. The union will try to help you get some or all of this. I think you deserve it!
JJ ;D
I hear ya JJ, and I appreciate that you think we contractors deserve all of this too. I guess I am trying to be realistic in my expectations of what we might really be able to improve and what it might cost, and is it worth it? Would a union feed us a pipe dream to get us to join?
My experience with temp. staff is quite extensive. When I was out of the biz for a few years I spent 4+ years as a production plant Superintendent in Detroit. Our production volume varied from week to week so we maintained a temp. staff of about 35% of the total hourly employee's. I managed in total around 200 hourly folks and a dozen or so supervisors, managers and leads. We paid our temp. staff on average about 80% of what thier "house" peers made. Of course I had to field many complaints about this over the years and I did possess the power to change the contract that we had with Addecco but I was also tasked with maintaining the financial health of my branch. I was probably one of the most sympathetic managers you will ever meet, I truely cared about the folks that worked for me (including the temp. employee's), after all, most of my life was spent punching a clock just like them. This was the best deal I could provide them without hurting the business. With all of the additional costs (workers comp., vendor markup etc.) these temp. employees ended up being nearly as expensive as my permanent employees.
It was a different business but I am sure that the same fundamentals apply. In the end, we are temporary employees. I want everything that you house guys get but, knowing a little about business I understand that it isn't realistic to expect the deal that you have. The future looks pretty promissing for a guy like me that has a couple more decades to work. There are way more opportunities for us contractors to seek fulltime employment than there was several years ago and with the aging workforce it is going to get even better. In the meantime I don't think that we make a poor living only having to work part of the year and I like the freedom that we have.
I am still a no, but I am not closed minded. I will continue to keep up on this post. Sorry I am so long winded everyone.
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It is valuable information , Bat Man. Karma to ya!
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With all of the additional costs (workers comp., vendor markup etc.) these temp. employees ended up being nearly as expensive as my permanent employees.
My take on this is that all of us are worth more during an outage. Outage time is when most of the heavy work takes place. After the outage, we (the rent-a-techs) leave, thus saving the company any costs from that point on out. We should be paid more for our time...because it is only for a few weeks.
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:) Just for the record I'm still a NO vote... No one has given me any pros to why it would be benifitial to us to even have a union ??? All I've seen is the oh to well known negitives but, not much in the way of positives ::) I'll keep watching though you just never know what might turn up here 8)
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8)
clarification of my comments/opinions on the union.
my vote is still no, but if the union was already in at whatever site that I was accepted at, and if joining there union was a condition of employment, then let it happin capt'n
rapidray
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My take on this is that all of us are worth more during an outage. Outage time is when most of the heavy work takes place. After the outage, we (the rent-a-techs) leave, thus saving the company any costs from that point on out. We should be paid more for our time...because it is only for a few weeks.
don't take dis da wrong weigh, but uncabuffalo.... dis reads like a pitch for professional athletes getting biggest bucks 'cause dey only work for a little while.
but they got unions.
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Does Bartlett or the Atlantic group base their pay on experience or merit? There is no way radbastard should get the same amount of money as me. (thats an attempt at a joke) Cant we least get NShift differential without having a union? Go Gators
Well biloxi anything over waitress wages and your stealing from them.You forget I worked with you many times in the past,and I will again at st lucie.
They should though have a system to give higher wages to people who have put in their time.I know this isn't a perfect system because we have some techs who have in 25 + years and are worthless aka: biloxi blues just joking buddie and some new 3.1 that bust their ass's.
I just think we should get levels for the experience or for the job's your assigned to.I know we have5+ and 7+ levels.Some away's get the tough crappy job's and high risk and some sit control points and make the same $$$$
If anybody thinks they have a work experience paying system please share it with the class
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The biggest things I have seen in the last 17 years are the following:
1) You hear this for House as well as contractors: do more with less!
2) It used to be Rad Safety was a top priority. If you did something not following RP directions you were disciplined appropiately.
3) Now Outage Schedule takes priority! Talk to people about the safety at recent S/G replacements. The safety records at Power Plants are always mentioned for house injuries, but contractors are doing the work.
4) We talk about 18.1, 3.1, 5 year, and 7 year seniors. How about equal opportunity for other positions such as ALARA, Planners, and Lead Techs. How fair are these opportunities?
5) Ever since the "Maintenance Rule" came about in the mid 90's, the plants are run like we would do taking our car to a shade tree mechanic for the cheapest labor.
6) If the industry is going to be top notch, that means everyone that comes into contact with the plants should have first class training.
7) The only training that is done by the plants is go no go training for techs.
8) A union would ensure proper training for all techs before a test.
9) The only way you and I can ask for fair wages is to have an educated work force.
10) When a plant can take anyone off the street, be it a untrained person, boyfriend, or girlfriend how can we justify more pay if a union does not prevent a hiring unless they have had the proper training and experience to do the job.
11) I still believe a union can work with freedom of choice, that is negotiated by the representatives elected and then approved by an overall vote by the workers.
12) Right now we have less organization than a bunch of coyotes!
Here is a link from the European Union on the importance of a Labor Union in Radiation Safety at Nuclear Power Plants: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:_7co1l3oqVsJ:www.srp-uk.org/irpaethics/ssiwshop.pdf+Radiation+Protection+labor+Union&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6
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Training is the big issue with unions. The skills of the journeyman would be standardized, you would get techs that are trained and not "resume" trained, and you would have a much safer work force. Unions tend to make things equal. As most of us know union provided training is very good. As a customer I would have more confidence in the purchase (tech contracts) if I saw union techs. I would tend to eliminate the NEU exam and other hinderances.
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Shawneeman, and alphadude, you are both correct. I got training from my union, can still get it if I want. it would cost me thousands every year to take it elswhere. All I have to do is pay my dues of $26/month. Ya'll do the math, it's easier than the NEU. The house techs at BNP don't want the NEU, we don't think it's pertinant and or fair, but who listens to us? Tina, I read some about catapillar, and i owe you an appology. But it seems the culprit was the UAW and the AFL, CIO. The Carpenters, Laborers , and Operating Engineers have withdrawn from them. Thats one of the problems with unions, or government, or any democratic society. Everybody needs to stay current and vote. If the wrong people get in, vote them out. Tina what exactly are your negative points?[ Batman, you posts aren't any longer than they need to be, mine are as long. Complicated issues take a little bit to explain. your posts are excellent.
Thanks,
JJ 8)/color]
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We can "hot air" this issue until the cows come home, but until there is something concrete on the table to hash out and discuss, that's all it is - hot air. My reluctance to join another union goes back to the days of my youth watching the steel workers go out on strike for benefits they would never recover although they fought an excellent battle for the betterment of their children (yeah, I'm talking about the '50's).
My suggestion is to put something concrete out here. For those of us who advocate for the union, let's see the proposed contract. For those of us who tend to be leery of unions, let's make the proposal into something potentially more useful for all of us.
Since I've been both union and non-union, I would like to see a copy of a proposal to help me make up my mind where I stand on the real issue - not just an esoteric discussion on the pros and cons of some mythical concept.
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OK, I finally have to add my two cents on the topic. I've heard the union opinions for about 16 years. The last attempt to bring a union standardization to our discipline failed miserably! Sorry to tell you this, but it scared the hell out of many who require our services! Another little known fact to the situations, only one company agreed to sit and talk with the union, which was a tremendous business decision, take a guess who that was? The other companies didn't want to let their cash cow profit margin out of the bag and refused to agree to any negotiations.
The Technician work force, in general, fails to truly recognize the necessity and value of their function. The customers aren't offering opportunities out of the generosity of their hearts, you are a requirement! Believe it or not, if we don't show, their outage doesn't go! Sure any utility can run an outage with their house staff, but most utilities have trimmed their staff to the bare bones minimum and running an outage under an emergency contingency staff plan would prove to be a regulatory disaster! If the Technicians didn't show up, the regulators would!
Some say, they don't want their opportunities limited by a union agreement! They want to go where and when they want to. I can't agree with you more! I follow the same rule, but under a different methodology. If company A limits the available opportunities, or offers me a poor compensation package, I go to company B, C or D! I may not go where I wanted to, but at least I will go when I want and for as much as I want! Are you sure you were fully informed of all the opportunities available? The longest duration and the most money? Did your resume make it to where you wanted, or only sent to where the company wanted it to go? I hate to be the one to bring this to the attention of the members of this site, but the current plan, which is also currently in motion, for one Contract Company, is to totally eliminate the selectiveness of the Technicians! In other words, “You’ll go where we want you to, or nothing at all"! You have to admit the value of that selling point to their customer! It would eliminate bonuses, control wages and benefits!
If we organize, we could make those Bastards pay through the nose! If you believe that to be the foundation of a union, you need to be banned from the union! Actually a union would provide an equal playing field for its members. It would eliminate all the secrets held over your head and not privileged to see! You know the ones I'm talking about, the contract constraints, on contract you can't read! It would also provide a venue of factual communication. Not to say incorrect information is actually the way of doing business, but I've heard the response of some recruiters, “You didn't ask the right questions or enough questions"! I didn't know an employment venue was a question and answer game!
Probably the most important, from my opinion, is training and an apprenticeship program. The nuclear industry, in our country, has been dead for quite some time! All of the nuclear high schools have closed and the military services are offering major retaining bonuses. I'll take the heat on this one, but my recent experiences in the industry, leads me to believe that the majority of the Technician populations, is lacking in the necessary skills of the trade. The reason for this is self evident, limited employment opportunities and ZERO training programs!
How could I draw such a conclusion?
Recently I attended an outage and spent an entire day reviewing OE's! The sad part, they were all current! All of the situations were repeats of events that took place many years ago! Simple mistakes that compounded into reportable events due to a lack of training and experience. What kind of events? Workers picking up debris, failure to believe instrumentation readings, improper training with specialized instrumentation and the list goes on! I was in the room with several other individuals and this appeared to be the first time any of them had ever heard of such events, including the instructor!
Who can train the future work force? Actually their is still a population of experienced individuals available for that venue. You read their comments on this site all the time! They represent various facets of the industry, not just the commercial sector! DOE, DOD, DOT, R&D, D&D and about a dozen other sectors of the radiological industry. I know many of them, some I agree with, some I don't, but when it comes down to the bottom line, they know their stuff! I don't know of any, who would outright refuse to offer assistance and training to a new work force.
Another portion of the union debate, that seems to be overlooked, is with whom? Everybody seems to want to pit a union against a specific company. Sorry boys and girls that is a venture I wouldn't want to take part in! Now if the Technician population wishes to discus the current situation of our industry and improve it, I'd be interested in that! The talk of a formalized organization and due's can be put on the back burner for now. Unionizing, or organizing, is simply the concept of deciding what is necessary to improve our industry today and in the future. Even an individual, who dislikes the discussion of unionizing, shouldn't have a problem with offering advice to potentially improve his own future! Contract on the table? A contract has to grow from the needs of all parties involved.
The first order of business would have to be what the Technicians need vs. what they want, a starting point.
I suggest, for dsicusion:
Wages
Travel Expenses
Per Diem
Bonus
Pension
Vacation/PTO
Medical
Vison
Dental
Perscription
Progressive Opportunities, POSTED
Training
Evaluations, REAL ONES!
Disciplinary Standards
Company Communications
Again, these are topic that need to be discussed.
My $0.02, sorry for being so long winded, RG
EB, congrad's on the new job!
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well put rad ghost- sad to say a lot of those not wanting the union are those with the least amount of formal jouneyman training. When we implemented the NEU exam it was basically a reaction to untrained technicians and a lack of confidence in the contractor work force. That still exists today-when you hear "techs are a dime a dozen" its a reaction to that lack of confidence- tell that to a union guy and you got your self some big problems! If you notice there aren't any NEU type tests for skilled Union craftsmen. They come in qualified- and go to work.
Don't equate steel unions, etc with what you can make of your union. That like saying "I'm not gonna drive a car cause I've seen what they do when they hit a tree!"
If anybody has the stats for DART for HP techs, I would be interested in seeing those.
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:) OK I must admit when I was in the union at a nuclear facility the only thing that was important was the training if you didnt meet quals you didnt work just that simple... but I felt at the time it was a double edge sword... ex: my quals were suppose to be "yearly" which was what I signed on to do "yearly" however, do to scheduling issues with training and our dept the once a year quails started to shift first to every nine months then the next year it was held six months later humm... let me see...what I felt personally was not only was I defending my job every year but it got ridiculous. I was requaling as often as every six months I got tired of after working for a company for 8.5 years having to save my job every stinking year or at nine to six months intervels which ever the site saw fit... I like it better now where I know I have to provide certifications at each place of employment and if its every 7 to 8 months well so be it... I know that up front its expected for me now. Im not miss lead by the thinking of my yearly quals moving up on me.... as for the type of training when I started at the NRC site I was given an instuctor and a guide to study and go over with the instuctor should I have any questions. By the time I left I no longer saw an instuctor, I was given a guide to study on my own before I was given a computer test... hummm just what kind of traiing is that... to me the quality of the training has went down and its not the best of incentives for me just to join a uion for training... now when I get training I go to places like Shawnee Environmental Services and I get online training... I pay for it myself and I dedicate myself to it hole Heartedly.... I know without the certs I will be unemployed and since I pay for it myself I pay more attention to it.... I do admit that working DOE after working NRC sites I could tell the difference in training NRC was much better but even now it is slipping by taking out the instuctor and classroom environment... I just dont get why I should want to pay out union dues for things I already have ... and I have more freedom to pick and choose my work projects .... the way it stands now I educate myself, keep my certs current and pick the best offers being made at the time to me... how would a union help me .... They arent going to keep me employed longer or get me a better quaility of work... my pay rate could end up being less and definitely wont be as lucrative to me as it is currently... As for health insurance and benefits they wont change much because companies already offer some good packages.... Where's the benefit ::)
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On training... I am an ex-shipyard guy (early 90's). I did the NAV-SEA 108 training. Many tests, weeks on end in class 8 hours a day, a 3 hour oral examination at the end along with a 5 - 6 hour written exam (all essay) and OJT for several months. That was quality training. Then I started in the commercial end of this buisiness in 92 and there wasn't a "real" exam even required. Soon after that the North East exam came into existance for most sites and it was a test that you really did have to srudy a bit for. It still in my mind wasn't enough to prove that you were qualified to perform as a SR. Tech but it was better. I recently went to DC Cook and had to go through a practical exam that lasted 2 - 3 hours. It incorporated many of the things that you need to know and perform in everyday Sr. HP life. I thought it was the best real life exam that I have had to take since being in the commercial business. It should in my mind be part of our NEU Exam. This was a test, not training, I understand that. I do think it is a step in the right direction to ensure qualified techs in the field.
When I was in the ship yard we had spill drills at least quarterly and once/year we would shut down the yard for a huge site wide mock up emergency. It seemed like we were continuously training to respond to something big if it ever happened. I don't know what commercial house techs go through but I think a program like this would be a great excercise for all of us to participate in on some kind of routine basis.
As contractors where schedule is the driving force I don't know who would be interested in footing the bill for training like this. It seems like we have to get in and get out to save as much $$ as possible, but at what cost? I often see Sr. Techs that are very proficient at letting jobs get away from them and crapping everyone up. What are the financials on dose and personel contaminations during a refuel outage? What are the health consequences? Would it be worth the cost of training a few dozen Techs for an additional week prior to an outage to reduce these issues? I think maybe it would.
With all of my hot air on this issue, the question is, what would the union really do to help in training? Real training that is, not just lecture and/or computer based training but OJT. Emergency training, practical training and exams. These things take time and money and I don't think that the union would be able to drive any of the utilities to provide this kind of training for temporary HP's.
Just thinking out loud again...
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It is beneficial to take the extra week and get the techs in alignment. The NEU when used properly should tell the provider where there are weaknesses in the training program; however, its used as a screening tool and not as a test instrument. Usually there isnt any remediation with the test and that is flawed thinking. If a person fails the test, and is remediated-its a win-win situation for all. The tech gets training for improvement, and the utility gets a better product. And guess what- if over a period of a few years the NEU grade levels rose dramatically and were always in the high 90's- the test would go away.
ELTs are well trained and should be given credit for their skills. They usally exhibit weakness in the "working aspects" of a new enviroment- power plant vs sub. Giving the NEU to an ELT who lives and eats theory is a waste of effort. Practice with situations they would encounter in power plants would be a perfect fit for them.
I remember some of the early tests I took in the late 70's- stupid stuff like "What is the scale on an E-500?" or "What kind of detector does an RO2 have?" Equipment specific guestions are soo dumb. duh-what color is my underwear type questions- Anyone remember Frank McFaddens test question box?
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:) All I'm going to say is you put a lot of value in a test that like the DOE Core test could be corrupted .... Whats it gonna take some fool to bring in five copies of five different versions of the NEU and lay them out on a desk like they did with the DOE CORE before people relies that the current testing system that is in place is worthless ... I paid good money for my training to get my DOE Core Certification only to be told its not acceptable becuse of the few idiots our there dont expect me to bet my bank on the NEU test either... Sorry but the truth hurts sometimes ???
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Tests must be developed using the SAT process. Each question must be linked to a learning objective and that objective must be covered in the lesson plan and presentation. Any test bank may be compromised by hackers, less than ethical instructors or staff or students telling each other the questions etc. Tests may be practical, oral, written-however they must be fair, cover the lesson plan objectives and present a challenge.
There is no Core Certification anymore- you must be able to pass the CORE test- which is not a certification. There isnt any more CORE CARDS- only a certificate or declaration that you have taken the training and passed the tests, which are similar to DOE CORE, presented by the provider- you must then pass the DOE CORE test for the specific DOE facility,and then that facility thru the reciprocity process shares that information. (We email each other on who has taken the training-however that is still an informal process) On current job descriptions there is usually a statement-"must be able to pass core test." not CORE certified.
I am a CORE training provider and the only thing I can promise is that you will be able to take the test- (notice I didnt say pass it!) I provide the modules and then test on each module. Costs are low and the info is given to you and you test with a proxy on your time. The CORE given to you by the DOE facility will be similar but totally different from my test bank. However, you will be familiar with the test method and type of questions on the facility DOE CORE test. That is the purpose of CORE Training Providers.
The NEU has already been compromised several times.... but I will not go down that road. Besides how many ways can you state a shielding formula with buildup factor before its all the same? (5 maybe) Learn to solve for each component and move on! NEXT....
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This is all good back and fourth conversation and I am, as well as others I'm sure interested but I think we are straying from the topic.
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:) Ok Alphadude
The idea of me joining a union will change all these facts HOW ??? Obviously techs who have made it on site have passed these tests in the past... their now on sites in an outage paying "union dues" for what benefit ??? Tech who work DOE know what is exspected should they chose to switch and go to an NRC site for an outage and vise versa having a union in place will even this out HOW ??? What will the added cost to my employment be verses the benfits ??? I know some house mice that where some what suprised when I told them I had passed the DOE Core ... Here they had worked as hp's for years in house and still held a fear of taking the DOE Core Test ... They felt I was truly quailfied to submitt my resume for an in house hp position since I had passed the DOE Core test... Now if a union were in place do you really think I would have been given that opportunity ... I doubt it ::) there would have been a greivence filed because of the time on the job issue verse tests being passed... :-X I'm just pointing out that we as techs do not need added hurdles to jump so we can get employment opportunities there are already plenty out there... 8) Oh and just for the record I was passed over for the inhouse hp position ... a traveling road tech that had more experance then me but who was dating one of the hp managers at the time took the job... needless to say whats really funning is the road tech ended up quiting the house job when the relationship ended.... :) its funny how Karma works 8)
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I suggest, for dsicusion:
Wages
Travel Expenses
Per Diem
Bonus
Pension
Vacation/PTO
Medical
Vison
Dental
Perscription
Progressive Opportunities, POSTED
Training
Evaluations, REAL ONES!
Disciplinary Standards
Company Communications
Again, these are topic that need to be discussed.
My $0.02, sorry for being so long winded, RG
rad-ghost, ya sure ya did't put a nickels werth in there? dang, yinz git a lot outa cupla pennies.
here's a take on suma yer items....
1) after reading alla posts since ya put these up, it looks like knowbuddy wants ta due ennything re: training. eye propose dat everywon wit >20 years gits grandfathered on training, 'n alla rest git it. betcha after a cupla years, alla dem grandfathers sit down fer some training once in a while. especially after they learn they kin make money at it.
2) fer medical, eye wood say to go with bc-bs. they're nationwide.
3) per diem shood be according to i.r.s. guidelines. nutting less 'n nutting more.
4) disciplinary standards shood be in accord with current union standards. 'n union reps shood be in attendance during all "tech a", y.f.g, disciplinary meetings, 'n udder situations eye may have mist.
dats da short of it four now.
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u go sloglo.
doze eyetumz thet yawl listd spechlee tha grandfudder klaus. zoundz reel goot.
reckon sense eyem a grategrandfudder, eye ownlee knead 2 shoup?
rapidray
PEACE
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Tina, you have a couple of situations that representation could have possibly worked in your favor. First, the cost of your training. The company you mentioned is one of the few recognized to administer the training. Possibly, through collective bargaining the cost could have been cheaper, maybe even free if a structured budget is established within a union to absorb the costs. Second, a representative would validate all testing, before and after! Third, once you take the test, your done that test forever! Sounds to good to be true.........READ ON!
Like Alphadude said, there are just so many ways to write a valid question. The industry is starting to realize that an established continuous training program is a far better choice, then cold testing. Entergy has established their core fundamentals criteria and lists it on PADS. If your qualified to take an air sample at IP-3, then your qualified to take an air sample at all of their other plants. NRRPT, although it is not readily accepted across the industry, many sites accept it as equivalent to the NEU test, good as long as you keep your membership active. It seems that the precedent has been set, now someone just has to draft the mechanics of total industrial acceptance. By the way, there is a catch, there is always a catch.....The training will be continuous and encompass the full spectrum of the industry. Probably things you don't want to know, but could possibly benefit you in your future career. The protocol will not be cold testing! Like Alphadude indicated, a defined lesson plan, with a test applicable to the lesson. Pass the test and move on! Commercial and DOE accept the Qual Card program, all we have to do is put it all together. Testing is not accomplished to see how dumb you are, but how smart you can be!
SloGlo....Blue Cross & Blue Shield would get my vote! On the subject of medical, the union would obtain and administer the policy, not the companies. Grandfathered....Hum, I agree, but there has to an established set of criteria, directly related to the industry. There are actually situations where individuals can meet the twenty+ year criteria, by today’s standard, but have ZERO experience in the industry. Per Diem, I have a very different opinion on that subject, which I will refrain from sharing at this point. I will say that it is a tool used by the companies and not the actual benefit we believe it to be. Representation....Yes..Yes... Yes! I also believe each evaluation should be reviewed by a representative, during the actual employees review. How about a Site manager review, by the technicians? They keep performance records, should we!
I'm bouncing around on this thread, so bear with me.
I guess the question of concern, "Who Goes Where"?
In my opinion, returnee status first! After all, the customer wants, who they want! If a site has a list of returnee's and they're paying the bill, then they should have the privilege of getting who they want, not who is drop at the door. In other words, opportunities primarily based on your own merits and performance. If you did a good job, then you deserve to be a priority for the customers next project. After that, assignments based on technical qualification needs! Many sites currently use this standard, 18.1, 3.1, 5+ year senior, 7+ year senior and whatever. If that method works now, then why not keep it, just establish a pay grade for it. What about technicians with limited time in the industry and the associated opportunities? We have all experience this situation, a technician with five years experience, is a lead tech, or foreman. Those types of opportunities will still need to be available, (upgrade). Again, if a customer wants a certain technician as a foreman, why shouldn’t they get what their paying for?
My $0.05, RG
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u go sloglo.
doze eyetumz thet yawl listd spechlee tha grandfudder klaus. zoundz reel goot.
reckon sense eyem a grategrandfudder, eye ownlee knead 2 shoup?
rapidray
PEACE
butt uv coors. rapidray, yew shoup wan kneadit 'n yer grand!
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rad-ghost.... i'm with you! excellent criteria for those points: my agreements are 100% on medical; grandfathering can be criteriated (?sp...yea, i no, i know... me kewstshun spelling?) to an agreed standard and we have to start somewhere; per diem i don't consider to be a benefit or a form of compensation, but rather a tool to alleviate bookeeping for expenses occurred for business travel and should be at the government's determined rate for an area and have stated this many times on many threads on this site; 100% on representation.
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WOW...Ain't seen a thread die this quick before!
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i'm guessing nobuddy wants to talk nuts 'n bolts.
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WOW...Ain't seen a thread die this quick before!
Like driving a stake thru a vampires heart.
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Dead? I don't think so! I was just on a little vacation, without my computer.RG many very valid points. Progress is going, or actually has gone to the national qual program. I don't know how many other utilities have done this. It's a program similar to PADS to track certain HP quals, that can transfer form site to site. It makes it cheaper and easier to inprocess for outages. We started last year. We were one of the first, and it was a lot of work getting the initial group done, but as we continue, it should get easier. I've had excellent experience with Blue Cross, with Bartlett, Progress, and my union in PA. SloGlo is correct in that it's nationwide. Health care should be contracted by the union, but be managed by Blue Cross, or another health care provider. If there are many members, this helps lower individual costs. we have several choices, and maybe the IBEW could arange some other options too, like some regional HMO's, The real trick is to stay working so that you get an employer match. It'd be infinatley easier if you stay with one company, and don't have to flip flop. I talked to some IBEW organizers tonight, they agreed with me! It's whatever YOU want. If you think returnees should be given preference, then propose that in the contract, vote on it, then get it ratified! Then you'll all have something valid to whine about. Right now nothing exists, and all of the whining and crying about how unfair all of the union rules are, is a huge waste of time. There ain't any yet! Senority doesn't exist, and just how would it be implemented fairly, if we all join the union on the same day? My first nuclear job was in 74, but lots of people have more experience, that started after me, because I didn't pursue it activley until the high dollar costruction work dissapeared in the early 80's. I agree with SloGlo on per diem. It's a living expense to be paid to help you defray the cost of maintaining 2 residences. Thats why they have the 50 mile rule (you're still living at home, and they know this) It should be the IRS rate determined for the area you're working in. Remember the IRS is here to help. They have arrived at thees figure after years of fleecing, er I mean research.It's not meant to be used as availability pay like it is right now. If your congressman gets sick when he's on an assignment, do you think his perdiem stops? Not hardly. When you are genuinly sick your expenses go up, and wages go down, so you really need your per diem.The union will have to set up rules to minimize abuse. That's why Bartlett and the other companies had to go to the present system. Too many people lay out when the get the brown bottle fever, or the Super Bowl Flu. I hear that's going around again this year too. RadGohst, why no comment on this? It's fair game. Everything will be negotiated, so we all want to hear everyone's opinions, pro and con! I'm bouncing around here also. Holidays?Bartlett has 6 I think. I have 13. It used to be, if the house people had a holiday, you got one too! Nothing wrong with that!
JJ
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:) Well it sounds to me like the only consideration here is going out to the hp's of nuke sites... This is one of the major problem I see with regard to a union.... no merging of the differant postions of RCT's Marssims, D & D, DOE, Deconers ect... There is no equality amoung the techs when it comes to unions... just another line of segration ::) until I'm sure that when I work at decomisioning a site with the same training, pay, benefits, and representaion as our outage brothers and sisters my vote remains no for unions 8)
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I think this debate would mostly apply to power plant workers. (standardized responsibilities)
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you would get techs that are trained and not "resume" trained, and you would have a much safer work force.
One of the first things I learned (>25years ago), was that you can NEVER judge a good RP/HP by his resume, any more than by their "training", sheep skins, NRRPT, etc, etc ..... I have worked with some AWESOME techs over the years that barely had a HS diploma, and some college educated/NRRPT dingbats. (Some of my favorite stories involve NRRPT, "Ocala High" newbie-grads, and engineers !) Training can definately make a better tech, but about 90% of a "being a good tech" comes from good ole fashioned experience and common sense! (I guess I'm an exception to your rule-->25Years, NRRPT, SAT qualified instructor, and still a no vote.)
Unions tend to make things equal.
They sure do. They ensure the highly trained slugs have the same benifits/pay as the good guys. And I know, that happens with todays "system", but at least it's not taking money from my paycheck to enforce it.
As a customer I would have more confidence in the purchase (tech contracts) if I saw union techs.
See first response above .......
Walt
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;) Koodos Walt
My feeling exactly ::)
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so walt I should use emotion and personal experience to skim out those I see as not "being a good guy?" Since I dont know you I would put you on the bottom of the list. However, if I used your resume you might rise to the top. Its not as simple as you state.
unfortunately, purchasers cannot meet and greet every tech in the world to skim the cream, so standards must be used to measure performance potential, and the items I listed are related to standards not personal feelings or impressions-which the last two posts seem to be based upon.
While those with just barely a high school education may perform well, that skill is based upon their limited experience on the job- (technical writing, abstract thinking, advanced skills more than likely would not be in their tool kit) their future would be somewhat limited. (unions would suit them well-especially when they get older) But as I said earlier there are always exceptions-
As for "good tech" a lot of that is salesmanship. It is likely that you would call someone a good tech if he played tonk with ya or had the personal skills to sell ya that Edsel. (i.e. What is your measurement tool "for a good tech?")
Besides Walt you are in management... so why would you vote for a union?
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...I should use...personal experience to skim out those I see as not "being a good guy?" Since I dont know you I would put you on the bottom of the list.
Yes, a manager's experiences with a technician should affect the technician's future employment and pay...preferably positively, but there are slugs out there.
As far as the 'bottom-of-the-list' comment, I personally would place the new-hire in the middle of the list...and let them make their way up (or down) from there.
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Yes, a manager's experiences with a technician should affect the technician's future employment and pay...preferably positively, but there are slugs out there.
As far as the 'bottom-of-the-list' comment, I personally would place the new-hire in the middle of the list...and let them make their way up (or down) from there.
That is exactally right IMO. Placing someone at the bottom of the so called "list" based solely on the fact that you don't know them personally is the same as giving some one the top position based on senority alone.
Neither is fair. I can't see a union helping with this kind of an issue where at the same time I can definately see that it could weigh things in the favor of a tech. with senority over the one that may not have as extensive of a resume but has better work ethic and expertise.
The only people that can sift through this issue and have an impact would be the actual employer (ie. Bartlett or other). Every job that I have had with Bartlett ended with a documented review of my job performance and attendance. This is how you build a reputation to go along with the resume and potentially have more opportunities to work at new sites. I don't know if Bartlett or other like companies have an "A" list, "B" list etc. but I have heard that they do exist. If they do exist then I applaud them for it. It helps the hard working techs that do a good job enjoy the rewards of their efforts in the form of having more choices and more employment throughout the year. I can't see a union having any positive impact on this issue.
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remember its SENIOR QUALIFIED not just senior.
And as the hiring supervisor, since I dont have union techs I do use my experience to skim out those I'm not partial too. (no matter what their skill level) Thats the fun of not having a union to contend with- I can play god, make pay "suggestions" to my contractor site co-ordinator, keep those I like (good techs) send the others to dose-ville. Give preference training to those I want, and so on, tell the site co-ord to "ax him or her" without justification. Give out "special projects!" Its good to be KING!!
As for dealing with union techs- I assign jobs thru the foreman, get feedback, and they all get trained equally. Poor performance is dealt with under "my right to manage" provisions and I hold the union accountable when needed.
Done it both ways- Its up to you to decide- I'm in management and have been for 25 years, so I see advantages to both. Dealing with the union is very very easy. (Oh yes I have always won all my grievances!) Dealing with 50 personalities (non union techs) takes its toll. but I have caused grief to non-union types (oh the end of the outage suck up!) gotta love it..
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:) Well it sounds to me like the only consideration here is going out to the hp's of nuke sites... This is one of the major problem I see with regard to a union.... no merging of the differant postions of RCT's Marssims, D & D, DOE, Deconers ect... There is no equality amoung the techs when it comes to unions... just another line of segration ::) until I'm sure that when I work at decomisioning a site with the same training, pay, benefits, and representaion as our outage brothers and sisters my vote remains no for unions 8)
so what wood yer suggestions be to merge alla different classifications? current unions in place at place have there criteria. suggest watt ya wanna see git in place.
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:) Well it sounds to me like the only consideration here is going out to the hp's of nuke sites... This is one of the major problem I see with regard to a union.... no merging of the differant postions of RCT's Marssims, D & D, DOE, Deconers ect... There is no equality amoung the techs when it comes to unions... just another line of segration ::) until I'm sure that when I work at decomisioning a site with the same training, pay, benefits, and representaion as our outage brothers and sisters my vote remains no for unions 8)
Tina,
You're killing me! The poll I started said a IBEW nationwide union, I didn't omit anyone, never intended to. In a previous life I worked DOE I also was a rent a tech at the commercial sites. It was about convienience and pay at any given period in time. my life evolved, and I slowly morphed into a house tech. i'm the only one witout a vote here. Oh except the ones that choose to not sign cards. If you want to be included, you have to sign a card! Raise your issues when you secure the right to bargin collectivly. If you want a voice, you have to vote. No contractor is goinig to give you a voice. You'll have to fight for it. when's the last time they called you into the office and asked you if the bid was high enough because you were going to get a big raise and better benefits. They want most of the money for themselves. Ahhh capitalisim at it's finest! The IBEW wants everyone to be represented, deconners, DOE, HP's, Dosimetry,Marssims, D & D,ect.
Sign a card for yourselves,
JJ
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I think this debate would mostly apply to power plant workers. (standardized responsibilities)
Nope, that would be way to easy for me! I like to do things the hard way, and make it work for anyone that wants a voice. Yes there are a lot of problems and question, but none without solutions!
JJ 8)
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They sure do. They ensure the highly trained slugs have the same benifits/pay as the good guys. And I know, that happens with todays "system", but at least it's not taking money from my paycheck to enforce it.
Walt
The money from your check is to better yourself! It's managements job to eliminate the slugs not the unions. There are ways to discipline, or terminate a substandard employee. What I find to be true is "the supervisor is way lazier than the slug you are whining about" He's a supervisor because he tought it would be easier than working for a living. If he's a good supervisor, he can motivate people, or replace them. Oh and i've noticed if one slug
JJ gets replaced it kind of inspires most of the rest!
JJ ;)
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Good to see you back JJ
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remember its SENIOR QUALIFIED not just senior.
And as the hiring supervisor, since I dont have union techs I do use my experience to skim out those I'm not partial too. (no matter what their skill level) Thats the fun of not having a union to contend with- I can play god, make pay "suggestions" to my contractor site co-ordinator, keep those I like (good techs) send the others to dose-ville. Give preference training to those I want, and so on, tell the site co-ord to "ax him or her" without justification. Give out "special projects!" Its good to be KING!!
As for dealing with union techs- I assign jobs thru the foreman, get feedback, and they all get trained equally. Poor performance is dealt with under "my right to manage" provisions and I hold the union accountable when needed.
Done it both ways- Its up to you to decide- I'm in management and have been for 25 years, so I see advantages to both. Dealing with the union is very very easy. (Oh yes I have always won all my grievances!) Dealing with 50 personalities (non union techs) takes its toll. but I have caused grief to non-union types (oh the end of the outage suck up!) gotta love it..
You're awsome dude! Pay attention Walt, you can learn something here. I've been a union supervisor too, and a shop steward also. We had layoffs, and there was never a mention of senority there, good workers had the option to stay, slugs went first! No union protection there! But remember the contract is a fantasy, you can make it what you want. The union has no problem with being held accountable, they do like to insure the right of due process. If the supervisor does his job correctly, the slug goes away. Like I said before, most are too lazy, and being former HP's they are all world class whiners like myself! ;D It's always easier to blame someone or something else for your problems, it's tougher to fix them. We need to fix a lot right now, and fix them right this time!
JJ
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so what wood yer suggestions be to merge alla different classifications? current unions in place at place have there criteria. suggest watt ya wanna see git in place.
If the IBEW succeeded here, they could extend the offer to merge some unions. If they are IBEW contracts, some are not, and they have agreements in place to not interfere with other unions, and vice a versa. Biloxi, it's good to be back! 8)
JJ
PS I thought this thread was dead ??? ??? ???
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Besides Walt you are in management... so why would you vote for a union?
Nope, WAS in management, back in the working class again by choice, (less headaches/more money).
I was just trying to make the point that a listing of my 25+years, NRRPT, and passing of every known testing and training thrown at me is no better yardstick for how I can perform in the field than a list of completed "union sponsored" training. It is ridiculous to think otherwise. That's partly why "returnees" are so valuable, and yes, it is a bit of a crap shoot when you bring in someone "new/unknown" no matter what the resume says. With the legal system today, you are sticking your neck out there if you give a bad work reference, unless you've got GOOD documentation to back it up. So unless you personally know the person giving the reference, good luck!
I came into this business with a background in electronics, strong math/science background and could pass any and every HP/RP test thrown my way. In fact, I went to CCNPP for the first time as a JHP, made a high score on their "new" test that all but a very few of the SHP's flunked, they interviewed me and (boing!) I was a 3.1 SHP! Did that make me a better FIELD technician than some of those who flunked and/or agonized over the entrance tests? NO-WAY!
A lot of folks just keep saying that "union trained" technicians are going to "magically" be a better/safer technicians. Horse-manure -- period! Air sampling, dose-rates, smears, (o.k. and frisking). A monkey can be trained to do that! It's the "how, when, and why" in a particular situation that makes you a technician. And able to multi-task with multiple variables that makes you a good technician. Good people skills doesn't hurt either. You don't get that in a classroom.
AND JJordanI know what you're saying about the lazy supervisors, there are some of them around. But there are also the supervisors that have been beaten, chewed-up, and spit out, for trying to discipline slugs, just to see them (the slugs) return with back-pay in their pockets and an "I got you" grin on their face. So some of them have a "why-bother" attitude. Can you blame them? And in those situations the co-workers lose too!
Heck, these days it's pretty tough to terminate a non-union employee! (See my first comment above)
O.K. Back on my head!
Walt
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all you got to do for a nonunion is build a case- its real easy.
for a union type i would have to build a case, take it to the union, put the person on an improvement program, for 90 days, track their improvement and if all goes poorly he or she is history.
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:) Dont some companies already have to some degree that type of program in place ??? without me paying union dues for it ::)
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:) Dont some companies already have to some degree that type of program in place ??? without me paying union dues for it ::)
Ummm...Yes, like almost all of them.
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Tina,
If you want to be included, you have to sign a card! Raise your issues when you secure the right to bargin collectivly. If you want a voice, you have to vote. JJ
In my (feeble, aged) mind, right now I have a voice AND the freedom to speak my mind, make choices based on pay/location/work conditions etc. When I "sign-a-card" I could very well forfeit those freedoms to the majority collective vote. If I've built a reputation (and in some instances a little higher pay-rate) based on the fact that I am trustworthy, competent and knowledgeable in what I do, there is the REAL possibility of losing some or all of that to a "Seniority List". Once the negotiations begin, there will be a chosen few sitting down to hash everything out for the whole bunch. Compromises are inevitable, and like the pork bills in congress you will have to swallow the good and bad together, or not at all.
So you see a-dude, I believe there are more than a few reasons why us crusty-old, soon-to-be in the HP retirement home geezers would "just say no"!
Walt
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as always there are exceptions
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Companies with Degree Programs? In reality I guess they all do, so long as YOU pay for it! Name one that will sponser a degree and pay the fee? If you know of one, please let us know! Have fun on your search!
How about the real issues:
Let’s look at the trends over the past couple of years.
Wage increases........Technicians….LESS THAN POOR, Company Management....MOST EXCELLENT!
Per Diem Rates........Below Recognized/Printed/Acceptable Government Standards, but increasing!
Travel Expenses.......CAPPED CRAP!
Training........Best that you can afford out of your own pocket!
Medical........Do I really have to say anything?
Vision, Dental, Prescription........I know, that's Ridiculous!
Vacation Pay........Poor if you can get it and unavailable to about 90 percent of the work force!
Holiday Pay........About three slices of pizza, if your first in line!
Sick Pay……..What a sick joke!
Sorry, just my opinion, but these appear to be the issues of today and probably tomorrow.
Anybody want to debate those?
JJ, you first, join the IBEW, sign a card and pay the dues. There are many organizational options besides joining an existing union. I currently hold a card from the IBEW, also a white card from the Hoffa organization in Philly. I have also been a member of two other unions, due to closed shop rules. The pre existing organizations have their plus's and minus's, but I don't believe many could fairly represent our discipline. All existing unions were founded with a specific agenda, for a specific population of individuals. Health Physics seems to be a mystery to most people outside of a radiological environment. Hell, even using the wrong acronym, at some facilities, draws a blank stare from the workers! What's an HP, RCT, RADCON, RP? Joining one of those organizations, because they already exist and have a contract in place, would probably prove to be unfavorable. I don’t believe a membership consisting of a couple of thousand T&D employees would consider my interests during a contract vote. I will agree that there are probably some existing organizations that have ideals close to ours, but they need to be researched.
Tina, I assume you’re a NO vote, no matter what! Seems that you have some grievances from the past that were not addressed to your satisfaction. How about today? If the situations repeated themselves, what would your course of resolve be? You also offered one very valid point in one of your recent postings, knowing you are receiving the same training, pay and benefits as your union brothers and sister, co-workers. I'll add outages or any other applicable facility! If you have that venue now, I suggest you keep your location top secret. If not, you'll have a hundred techs on the phone, scrapping for your job! By the way, one company is currently flashing the marquee of opportunity for DOE techs to enter the commercial industry, study guide included. I suggest NOT, but the opportunity is there to branch out!
Walt, it took me a little longer on the resume thingy, but I agree in general. Our discipline is primarily based on experience, or "Skill's of the Trade" as it is referred to in ANSI Standards. In my opinion, about 10% education and a 90% combination of public relations, common sense and experience! Stop and think for a minute, what if the education level increased in the work force? Technicians who not only know what their doing in the field, but why they're doing it! The trend of today’s industry is ramping upwards in the number of incidents, which coincidently are repeats of past events. Yep, the same S##T, different decade and it is a recognized and identified trend. Would more training make them a better technician? Probably wouldn't hurt! Diversification would be be my suggestion on the training issue. Technicians that could walk into any situation and feel comfortable. I want to offer Tina the opportunity to Certify an RGD, walk into a TRU project, run a Crit-Safe program, or cover a S/G project and have the knowledge and comfort level to do the job! I surely cant teach her how to carry the meter, but I can draw her focus on the radiological concerns! Walt, I dont know your experience, but I want to be able to drop a part 61 sample program on your desk and expect regulatory compliance in two weeks!
I am also with Walt on the dues issue. That seems to be the world of today, Pay-Per-View. If you want something better, you have to pay to see it! Na, I'm one of those cheap stingy bastards who needs to see the fine print, before signing the doted line. If an existing organization really wants to entice us, let them post their proposal on this site for review! Until then I believe we would do better on our own, coyotes or not! I love that Coyote comment, I've seen them in action!
Walt, your not feeble and I respect your dedication to the industry, 25 +years, KUDOS+ and a pat on the back!
Sorry Alphadude...TRAINING...Divers ified Training in ALL Health Physics Disciplines, for all who want it! That’s a tall order, but the resources are available! I don’t know for how much longer, but they are available today!
Bat Man, what do you want? I hate to be curt, but you keep repeating seniority, seniority and seniority as your primary point of contention! I believe a suggestion was offered on merit based opportunities, driven by the customers request's. Actually as I read back on the thread, it seems that you simply want the upper edge, in all cases! What if the plant wants me, or what if the contract company wants me? This may come as a big surprise, but there are still a lot of high quality techs available in the industry! You may be at the top of the list, but you’re not alone! If a tech worked a plant, over the past ten consecutive outages, do you deserve his opportunity simply because you’re the contract company poster child? Sorry if I offended you, but never ask for more than your willing to give!
You did offer an interesting aspect to the A & B list of the companies. What if you made the A list as number 45, (You can't all be #1), and the customer only requested 44? Looks like the company screwed you, you should have been number 1, 2, 24 or whatever! How do you know this hasn't happened? To date it sounds like you've had a pretty good run on opportunities, but then again what have you been offered vs. what is actually available? Sometimes you just never know! I believe the most important issue with assignments, is to know what assignments are available, not channeled opportunities offered by the companies!
In summation, lets wrap it all up, the bottom line! What have you really aquired from your employment opportunities, the bottom cash figure. Convert everything to cash and figure it out!
Lets go with, $26.00 an hour & $100.00 a day PD, then add your benefit package.
Lets say 72 hours per week!
WOW, $41.50 per hour gross!
Now add benefits, still $41.50 per hour, less if you take the insurance!
Toss in Taxes, per hour, $2.50 ss/med, $1.50 - 2.50 State, $6.00 Federal....Sound about right?
WOW, $31.50 per hour take home....SWEET!
Wait a minute, double living expenses:
Motel, meals, laundry, phone, gas, vehicle ware & tare, tolls and whatever $5.00 per work hour, we always live cheaper on the road!
Now that's the sweet life, take home about $26.50 an hours and a thousand+ miles from the home and family!
Wait a minute, I forgot home expenses! I know you have then anyway, but guess what, your paying for something you can't use, or see!
Toss in another $5.00 per hour, for that vacation place you call home!
Man, now we're talking real gravy, about $21.50 per hour take home, without misc expenses! Anybody wonder why so many of the old timer left the gravy boat!
Respect to all, just my opinion, RG!
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all you got to do for a nonunion is build a case- its real easy.
for a union type i would have to build a case, take it to the union, put the person on an improvement program, for 90 days, track their improvement and if all goes poorly he or she is history.
actually, for a non-union tech, all you have to do is tell them not to come to work anymore
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Hey RG,
I agree on most if not all points made...... For college degree expenses try PNNL. If it is related to your discipline( very broadly) they will pay for it....... I was road tech, then I did a commercial D&D (Rowe) and finally went DOE house or at least permatractor..... I am union now with IBEW and as far as I am concerned I was better off without the union. I was always able to work where I wanted and when I wanted at an acceptable rate of pay to me. Yes we have good benefits and wages here and that is why I am still an employee here, but I saw something in your post about the good of the collective vs the good of yourself and it rang true. Just remember if you do sign a card to look around and find the most "political" tech in the group and they will be the ones representing the "collectives" view point to management. After having watched our last Business agent here promote himself to a management labor relations position when he should have been representing our views I have had about all that I can take of unions. If it wasn't for the pay and bene's here I would be long gone. Part of the credit for the bene's goes to the union......But I could find work for equivalent packages without the union........
Mike
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Bat Man, what do you want? I hate to be curt, but you keep repeating seniority, seniority and seniority as your primary point of contention! I believe a suggestion was offered on merit based opportunities, driven by the customers request's. Actually as I read back on the thread, it seems that you simply want the upper edge, in all cases! What if the plant wants me, or what if the contract company wants me? This may come as a big surprise, but there are still a lot of high quality techs available in the industry! You may be at the top of the list, but you’re not alone! If a tech worked a plant, over the past ten consecutive outages, do you deserve his opportunity simply because you’re the contract company poster child? Sorry if I offended you, but never ask for more than your willing to give!
What do I want? Very simple...I want what I already have. A job that lets me make a decent living, choose where I want to work, rewards me for a job well done and average wages and perdiem go up to a degree that you would never see on average in other industries. My comments on senority are based on what I fear would happen if we had this union.
So let me take a whack at a couple of the points you were making.
And, lets all keep in mind the fact that we as rent a techs, are nothing more than temporary labor. If you have read my previous posts you will see that it is something that I have had plenty of experience with from the standpoint of managing a business in a previous life.
Wage increases...1998 to 2006 I noticed an average wage increase of over 6%/year and perdiem doubled. Hmmm...Seems like a pretty good trend line...again, we are temp. staff.
Travel Expenses...I have yet to ever use all of the money that I recieved in travel expense on any outage that I have gone to. We are owed exactally the amount of $$ that it takes for us to get from point A to point B, travel expense is not income. That is a realistic viewpoint, I will not tell you that I do not like the extra money for the plants that are not capped, but I do appreciate it because I don't think it is owed.
Training...It would be great to get better training and I have touched on that in a previous post but here is a question for you. Did the doctor, lawyer, engineer, marketing executive, CAD operator have to pay for their college education?
Medical...Again, we are temporary staff and in most cases work only part of the year.
In fact I will put the last 3 together.
Vacation, Holiday pay, sick pay...WE WORK FOR A TEMP. AGENCY.
If you want all of these things you need to be looking for a house job. There are more of them available than I have ever seen and it is only going to get better in the future. It is completely unrealistic to think temporary road techs should get the same deal as house techs. I wish it were different but that is just plain ole business management 101, the math just can't work out that way.
And by the way, all of you that are spouting off that the union is a great idea for rent a techs and you are sitting in a full time position at a utility or DOE site etc., it is different. What works for you in your house job will not necessarily work for those of us on the road. We have different needs, you deal with one site, we are concerned with many sites and the choices that we may or may not have to work at these different sites. You work for a utility, we work for a temporary agency.
R.Ghost, you sound like you are bitter about your career. It is a very common thing in this business. I would suggest getting out for a while and checking out the grass on the other side. It isn't greener grass, it is just different grass. I did for 8 years and now I am back, I like this grass on this side, some like the grass on the other side.
I do appreciate your opinions on me and my post but, you don't know me at all.
I have never considered myself a contract employer poster child, I am simply adequate, there are many that are better, there are many that are worse, I am just adequate. Maybe I have developed a better network than some.
It's all good, thanks for the comments.
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RG,
You were doing really great, I think you missed a few though. Retirement pension- none. 401k match, $100.00- PLEASE? Due Process, Legal Counsel, representation, none, none, none! Then came your comments to me. I think you're on target on a lot of thing, but I think you're missing something here, but so are most of the others also. The IBEW is an already existing organization, and yes they want you all to join. The part you all are missing is that they want to help you represent yourselves. They don't send someone down from DC or NY in a stretch limo to assume the Buisiness Manager position, you elect one from your ranks, yes usually one of the more political. You have to pick the right one. If you pick a self serving individual, and he takes you and your local deep, shame on you for not making a better more educated choice! All is not lost, you can still remove and replace him. But please stop blaming the IBEW for bad decsions they didn't make, the local unions or you did! Hope this clarifies some things for some people.I too still carry a current card with a union(not IBEW) I've had it since 75. I haven't needed it since about 83, but still pay my dues. Now to clear up some of the missconceptions about the traing issues. My dues are currently $26.00/ month. I'm eligible for a lot of FREEtraining. No wait, I pay $312/ year. I can take the 40 hr hazwhopper course, except they've expanded it to 80 hrs. You get the pleasure of actually doing real hands on, fully encapsulated suits SCBA's and all. The have any and all equipment you'ld find at a real hazmat site. Find that somewhere and tell me what you'ld pay. Oh they also give you travel pay and feed you lunch. I'd be driving from NC to PA at the federal rate, ya'll aer smart do the math. Oh I almost forgot, I'm away from home, so they'll pay for a motel for me too! ya'll working that calculator? Probably not, you've got your minds made up, and don't really want to hear something that is outside of the BS you hear in the break trailers. OK I can also do the Supervisor training, asbestos, and supervisors, lead abatemant, and supervisors. and a myrid of others not pertaing to what HP's and deconners do. But I've used all of thees at one time or another, and having theese OSHA certified skills has actually opened a few doors, and given me preference at a lot of jobs because the cheap __s contractors don't want to pay for the course, and your wages for 40 hrs. When they can slap me on the __s and tell me to go get me some the very first day of employment! Sometimes a physical is required for work, and they usually try to get you to get one from your hospitalization so they don't have to pay for that either, even though it's required by law! You still sure thees companies have your best interests in mind? The unions will provide training for the trainers. They will provide whatever you deem pertinent to your proffession. Why, because you are the union, you vote and decide what you need. If you want and or need the NEU, or NRRPT, they'll provide a certified proctor and administer the test. It's nice to go to a site and not have the pressure of having to pass a test to secure employment, the pressure increases expontentially too, as the distance from home does I still remember, becuase I ain't nearly as smart as you all. The pitance you pay monthly does a lot of good things for all of the members, you just have to be smart enough to take advantge of this. Sorry if I've offended anyone, didn't mean too. Agin my 2 cents worth!
JJ 8)
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:) Humm lets see I'm a traveling tech and have worked for sevral differant companies smalll & large and I have had the options to get into their 401K programs and "take" or "not take" their insurance as well as "their holiday/vacation packages" .... (and its my choice, not a group decison that is made for me) .... if I choose not to take them the companies usally gives me a higher hourly rate of pay .... but, if I do take them I'm still paid at the going rate ... and as for per diem I usally get a good rate on that too or I move on to the company that will give me "the good rate" .... as Ive said before I get all these benefits already without paying a union due for it ..... I dont feel I'd get my money's worth out of joining a union ..... for things I already have and without the extra agravation of a union being envoled with my future hiring opertunities... because of their seniority rules or the political favorite of the week .... I believe like a few others out here that an employee should be judged on an individual bases for the past work they have done ... check their referances and past employment to verify their qualifications .... throw them a bone and watch to see if their as good as they can be .... mentor the fresh techs that are out there trying to make a living in a new field of work ..... to me a union is just a polite way of having a "Good Ole Boy" system in place .... with little recorse for the non-majority .... like I stated before Unions were good in the old days where they were setting the ground work for the labor industries but to me we as an american job force have out grown them and the need for them .... they cant give me what I already get on my own and only offer me more difficulty when being hired and want me to pay dues for the privilege .... 8)
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I will give you a good example of a union that fits the needs of people that work only part time, have to travel to difficult locations, each location is different and requires a wide range of skills, SAG and IATSE movie workers- pay is high, retirement is fantastic, entry level electrician is $30.00 an hour and so on.. unions are what you make of them..
Oh and dont forget baseball and foot ball- the players union
HP technician is a defined skill/craft/trade. Some of us forget that the line of definintion is blurred because of non-union issues and we tend to wander into rad eng, ALARA, etc which in reality is outside of the craft but associated with it. RCT as defined and used by DOE is an ideal description of the HP Tech craft.
Collective bargaining organizations for a well defined craft is an advantage for that craft- not an advantage for individuals that may or may not work below standards, wish to work out side of the craft if requested, those that have other means of retirement income, seek management advantage, like to use personal connections to get more than their fellow craft, use their advanced skills or connections to belittle other in the craft, seek to move to management, wish to advance a political idea to "get rid of unions", and so on...
If I were a company owner concerned about the most profit I could get.. I would go non-union, its that simple. I can keep wages lower, not offer as much in benefits, pay people different rates that do the same work- devious you say -NO ITS BUSINESS!
If I was a company board member in it for the long haul- well beyond my life time and had many employees... I would go union- products tend to be better quality, training is easily accomplished, I can predict costs well into the future because I know the rates paid to workers are standardized, management has to only deal with one individual in general (the union) about work conditions..
I tend to think that HP techs are more like the movie workers union- limited amount of people, unique skills and so on.. this is an IDEAL situation to get a whole lots more pay-face it- no HPS and 20% of the electric power in the US has some problems-big time! But as long as individuals say no to the unions- pay will stay about the same..
Oh and in reality pay has only gone up about 2.3% per year in 27 years.. I was making $18.00 an hour with RAD in 1979... well below the cost of living increases. (assuming $29/hr)
The 6%/year rate for 8 years dont sound right maybe if you went from jr decon to srhp. Thats a 48% increase in pay in 8 years. wow!
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Sorry JJ, I know I said I wouldn’t take sides and I’m trying not too. But i have to address a couple of things you've posted my friend...
...they want most of the money for themselves..
Yes the companies want the money for themselves, that’s why they are in business - Techs want the money for themselves, that’s why they work, and last but not least The UNIONS want the money for themselves, that’s how they stay alive. When it comes down to it - all parties concerned want the money. Now taking all that into account - the workers getting their piece, the companies getting theirs then throw in the unions - yes the unions may be able to get the techs higher pay rates and big benefits - look what this has done to the airline industry, the car industry, and others - Americas unions have out priced Americas workers thus our jobs go overseas. I say this not as a recruiter for one of the companies but as a worker...long before I even knew what this industry was all about I was a humble non-union construction worker, I laid pipe, poured concrete, did masonry work, roofed and did general carpentry - some of the time working next to union employees, those times I didn't work next to a union employee were the times that the union contract companies were forced to come in to high on their bids due to the Union increase in monies needed. So instead of working next to them, I normally had to drive thru them to get into the site as they picketed for their union, even though their union was the one that caused them to be priced out of the running - go figure. As I’ve stated before, I can work with both Union and non union contracts, don’t matter to me - just be careful what you wish for ...it is my humble opinion that the "golden age" of unions is over, but that’s not to say that representation is out of the question. I know this will get people irked, but please realize I’m not advocating against any type of organization or unionizing - I’m advocating that you all weigh your options and do what is going to best for you and your family, whether its unions or not. Form your own opinions; make your own decisions, because ultimately it is you and yours that will be affected. The utilities will still be here. The companies will still be here. The unions will still be here.
...The IBEW wants everyone to be represented, deconners, DOE, HP's, Dosimetry,Marssims, D & D,ect...JJ
One last note that I did post previously - You say the IBEW wants to represent everyone...that was not the case last go around - they wanted dues from everyone but classified Decon techs as unskilled labor thus not entitled to representation...that came from their own handbook circa March, 1990. Hopefully that has changed and it’s not another scam to fatten their coffers like before. Once again don’t get me wrong, I have personally staffed IBEW jobs, have found them to be some of the best (and likewise some of the worst) that I have ever staffed - A job is only what the individual, their co-workers and management make of it. Anyways, I’ll probably be put in the corner for putting my 2 unsolicited cents in. As always, good luck JJ on your struggle, and good luck to those that oppose. I look forward to observing this ever changing industry as all this unfolds.
Peace out,
Eric
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I tend to agree with Eric, however wouldn't staffing be transfered to the local and not handled by a company such as Bartlett if techs were organized? If that is the case, there would be a distinct disadvantage for rent-a-tech companies to advocate unions.
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- look what this has done to the airline industry, the car industry, and others - Americas unions have out priced Americas workers thus our jobs go overseas.
Very well said Eric,pretty much sums it up in a nut shell.Karma to ya.
Good luck to everyone in this struggle.
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the examples presented are typical ones that everybody uses. Why not select unions that have done well? I just did SAG and IATSE, & the players unions. As far as work going overseas- well for $0.18 an hour (China) hell I'd sell out too. So how would you out source HP techs to china- use remote reading instruments?
Here is a plan.. for management.. Increase the amount of people being trained for HPs. Start training programs in house, take in entry level, go out to tech schools and support those. In 5 years- cost of contractor techs would drop about 1/4 due to the influx of more trained workers trying to fill only so many positions.. people would take less money in an effort to support a degrading life style. Getting trainees would be easy since pay grades are at an all time high.. this would serve as an enticement and semi-skilled workers are easy to get due to recent economic issues associated with the White House Agenda.
In about 7 years the costs would drops even lower..reflecting lower pay rates, thus ensuring a ready supply of technicians that would be willing to accept lower wage.. profits would increase and shareholders would be happy. The minor wage paid to technicians is passed to the rate payer- thus profits are ensured.
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I also do agree with Eric, that the companies want the money just like the unions want their money. If everyone wants their freedom and one less thing to go through wouldnt it be better financially if we dont have either the company or union. We already have to go through the recruiters, then the cordinator, and then finally the plant itself. Also there was a response about the "Good ole boy" in the union. Well if you dont think there is a "Good ole boy" in the companies we work for then ya been in the "cavity hole" too long.
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- look what this has done to the airline industry, the car industry, and others - Americas unions have out priced Americas workers thus our jobs go overseas.
Very well said Eric,pretty much sums it up in a nut shell.Karma to ya.
Good luck to everyone in this struggle.
I will third that! I live in an area that was destroyed by plant closures and layoffs, beautiful Flint, MI. You may have also heard of Delphi, also here. They were actually in bankruptcy and to stay alive were trying to get workers to take a pay cut to stay competetive (remember that janitors in the auto industry make house SR. HP wages) Instead of taking a couple of less dollars/hour (ie. $22 - $23 instead of $27 - $30) and still having a job when the dust settled they threatened to strike. Meanwhile, small companies are popping up all over that pay a fair wage and benefits (ie. $18 - $20/hour) for the making the same parts that Delphi does. Now, nobody has a job. That is union mentality at it's finest.
Gee, I wonder why a decent new car costs $30K plus!?
By the way...My father was a commitee man (union stewart) for the last 10 years of his tenure with GM. We have discussed this issue many times over the past few years. He agrees that the golden years of the union are over, they served the purpose of getting abused labor forces fair treatment years ago and now we have a guy who is supposed to be sweeping the floor at the auto plant for $30 bucks/hour but he is not right now because he is busy greiving the fact that his boss doesn't want him to watch TV in the locker room for 10 hours/day on overtime (real story).
I have probably worn out my welcome on this issue with most, I will just watch now.
Have a great spring all... 8)
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Yes I do agree that some unions have outpriced themselves out of work (ford is the next one) thats is one thing we dont have to worry about with our companies.
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I tend to agree with Eric, however wouldn't staffing be transfered to the local and not handled by a company such as Bartlett if techs were organized? If that is the case, there would be a distinct disadvantage for rent-a-tech companies to advocate unions.
All depends - way i think it would work is that the contract company would have to hit the local up for the people, kinda like the big construction outfits hit the local(s) up for their peeps...what i think'll throw the monkey wrench in the works is that there are a myriad of house unions out there that the road tech union would have to capitulate too if they wanna do buisness on that site...but then again, i'm no expert on this. Truthfully wouldn't want to be, have enough headaches as it is.
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All examples cited are the results of poor management NOT unions. Ford, airlines, steel etc their management didnt see the market trends or upgrade their systems to compete in the international markets. Blaming the unions is a nice excuse but other auto worker in other countries get paid as much or more than their american counter part-they just have a better designed product. Those better products are the results of engineering-a management responsiblility. Unions didnt price themselves out of a job-their management did...good propaganda but not true.
True enuff on your comment Eric. Good debate.. but as we can see a lot of people are clouded by what the steel workers did or what the airlines did and so on. Its an apples to oranges comparison- yes both are fruit...
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You always hear the comments about pay in the decade of the 70's and 80's for workers. How does this compare with management pay, such as CEOs?
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The pay is not in the 70s and 80s for workers-unless you throw in overtime. Base pay should only be counted. As for CE0s (nuke power) one of our ex prez retired at $1000 a day for the rest of his life-which was lower than his base pay. Poor guy can barely afford pay out to the two ex wives.
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In the eighty's I was paid $700 to $800 travel each way for travel from Illinois to the New England plants that I normally worked. With the outages so short this is a very large drop in compensation. I haven't traveled in over ten years but I have heard $200 one way only that is a several thousand dollar drop each year right there. In relative pay I made as much or more per hour than the house techs I worked with, that is no longer the case.
Sorry, I will return to my neutral corner as promised.
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Alphadude, don't blame bad management for all of the current industrial problems in various industries. It was bad management to give the workers some of the things they got. Some examples of union greed; Inability for Ford, GM and others to cut costs by closing or consolidating plants, if the union didn't agree, the plant couldn't be closed or they had to give work / income gaurantee for extended periods of time after they were laid off. This is the same as if I were to look at Exelon and say they had to pay me from the last layoff in Nov until I went to work in the spring. Another example is that most industrial unions started doing grandfather clauses in their contracts in the late 80's to protect the older workers. An example of this would be that most contracts had a fair pay structure initially and suppose there was a 3% wage increase accross the board per year in a contract. Say the company had to cut costs. Instead of agreeing to a 1.5% raise per year, the senior members would keep their 3% and newer workers might get 1% over the life of the contract. This did occur in my case as a paper worker many moons ago as well as when my wife was a steelworker.
All I'm saying is don't blame management for all of the problems. Sure it makes the concept of a union look better if someone else takes the blame. Whether I would join or not join a union is not relative. When I can't go when and where I want or I'm not satisfied with what the staffing company is offering, I'll stay home and find something else to occupy my time.
Keith
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Point being the examples given were not driven to destruction by the Unions.. both unions and management share the responsibility but ultimately the owners must take most of the burden of short sighted economics. All american automotive companies suffered from the imperial family syndrome Chrysler, Ford etc, and thought those big gas hogs that broke in about 40,000 miles would keep selling..how is that the unions fault? Steel didnt change to new technology and see the need for the special metals-Japan did! Unions I would say hold 30% of the issues but ultimately-its the owners that must supply the vision to substain production. As for your example-who agreed to those contracts- management.
Again what do automotive unions have to do with a HP tech union? not a lot. Doctors do fairly well with the AMA which is a thinly desguised union.
And now I will change to anti-union!
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Bat man, the numbers don’t lie! Wage & Per Diem increases of 6% are just about on the money! Of course the benefit reduction of greater than 6% needs to be tossed into the formula. Statistics, you got to love them, the ability of proving a point from any perspective, right, wrong, or otherwise!
TEMPS: Yes we are, but lucky for us, temps with a unique set of skills and qualifications, govern by federally recognized standards. I must also mention that we are probably one of the smallest groups of manpower, in any US market, with this type of unique criteria. The commercial industry has recognized the increasing shortage of qualified technicians for well over a decade. They have even drafted concerns on the subject. The NRC has also voiced their concerns on the issues of numbers and quality. Just a bunch of politicians sitting around crying that the sky is falling! Collecting their checks, rubbing their necks and hoping that the problem will solve itself before the finger pointing starts! The façade of being a dime a dozen has long gone by the road side, unless you’re buying the bull!
When the companies require our services, they don't have option B, C, or D! They need qualified technicians, in certain numbers, for a certain duration and on a certain date....PERIOD! I believe you and a couple of others have mentioned concerns over your opportunities, due to substandard performers. Guess what, our trade is so low in qualified manpower, that the company your working for will also hire those individual at the same rate as you, maybe even higher! There really isn't any mystery on who can and who can't in the industry, but the nature of the game is how many and at what profit margin! Test my theory, next time you’re assigned with one of them, call the home office and complain! You'll be working with them again within the year, and with the same company!
Travel Expenses, capped or not: That subject does frustrate me! I have yet to understand the technician’s acceptance of traveling on their own time and their own dime! So much per mile, is solely for vehicle use expenses. What about wages, food, hotels and other expenses? I know you don’t use it all, sleep in the car, take showers in flying-J's and Mc D’s breakfast is only $4.00! If your traveling five states for an assignment, guess what, that facility probably doesn’t have the local talent they require. Somehow, somebody decided that it is our responsibility to absorb the lost wages, for the days of travel! Imagine that, you’re actually doing them a favor and taking an economic lose to do it! Do the math on that one, figure out how much your loss is for the year! You can add all the justification to the equation you want to, (car gets 100 MPG, I sleep in the back seat, a bag of twink’s and 6 pack of Pepsi is two days, of three squares, on the road). A day to travel in and another one to get home is two days of lost wages! Five assignments a year and you just lost two weeks pay! Like you said, “Travel Expenses are not Income”! I feel fairly safe in saying that the contract company managers are probably doing things different!
Here's a Good Question:
“Did the doctor, lawyer, engineer, marketing executive, CAD operator have to pay for their college education”?
The actual answer is:
Initially I believe the majority of them did, I said majority, not all! After that, I believe many of them paid nothing for advanced training and education! After all, once they received their sheep skin they’re good as gold! I would venture to say, their employers, probably pushed and paid for all of their advancement opportunities, salaries and travel expenses included! Most companies want the horse power of higher educated employees, actually most companies HR departments are required to screen for an employees potential.
That’s also quite a population of careers you picked. I haven’t researched the numbers, but I would consider it a fair guess, that the number of qualified technicians in the industry today, is a mere percentage of each of those disciplines. There are probably more doctors in Florida than HP technicians in the world! I believe further research would prove that they are all members of some form of professional organization, with some form of representation. Be it a board of peers, or a lobbyist in Washington. You know what I mean, someone looking out for their best interest! I know we have the contract companies doing that! :D
Benefits: There are a number of ways to deal with the issue, even as temporary staff. I’ve seen situations where an employee organization obtains funds from the employer, on behalf of the employee, for each hour worked. The employee benefits are maintained based on an accumulated number of work hours per year! 1250 hours, per year, rings a bell!
Vacation, Holiday pay, Sick pay:
I assumed you had been in the business for a while, the vacation pay still exists for some companies, you simply have to work 50 weeks out of the year, I believe you even mentioned one of those companies in a prior posting! Holiday pay has recently vanished at some sites, not all sites, some sites! Sick pay has been gone for quite some time, unless you are in the world of DOE. Then you call it PTO!
How about that DOE stuff? Strangely enough they have this little federal directive that specifies the employee benefits! The commercial world is going to hate this, it guarantees all the benefits we’re discussing, some optional at the employees discretion! The employer has to supply the benefits, or turn the funds over to the employee! You read right, give the money back to the employee! At most DOE facilities, this equated to about $2.00 to $2.50 per work hour if you turn down the company health insurance, even that company you mentioned before was held to this standard! Some sites also pay your PTO and Holiday pay hourly!
In the commercial world, private contracts, they don’t have to do that and their not going to do that! Let’s do a little business management 102! When submitting a proposal, or bid, it is acceptable and justifiable to calculate staff expenses, such as company health benefits, UCI and taxes. Obviously any expense driven by a state or federal requirement is considered reasonable and acceptable by the customer. If you don’t take the companies health benefits, where do you think that money is going? Enough said on that subject.
Temporary contractors have different needs? Food, clothing, shelter, mortgage, utility bills, car payment and insurance! Somebody help me out here, what am I missing?
“R.Ghost, you sound like you are bitter about your career”
Not actually “Bitter”, but “Better”! I love the science, industry and people! I still maintain a specific, continuous education agenda in the trade, three certifications and $2,500.00 out of pocket last year. This year it’s going to be French and German lessons, (which I strongly recommend to all commercial technicians). Of course, from a contractor perspective, I may have a few additional opportunities than are not afforded to you, but that’s the benefit of all that unnecessary training and certifications.
In today’s Industry; Adequate is Antiquated!
Learn Your Worth and Realize the Worth of Your Peers!
Sorry for being so long winded, RG!
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Hey EB, life would be better!
How about a list of technicians, their qualifications, current training, certifications, physicals, availability, security information and requests for assignment, all at the touch of a button. Think about that, your phone would never ring, recruiters wouldn't have to call and the company cost saving of eliminating that pesky recruiter department!
Hummm....Probably not a good politicaly correct selling point, it could possibly put you out of a job!
Not to worry, I'd hire you!
Ain't heard from you in a while! Heard your the top dog in the recruiting department, since Brian left.
Luck at you, RG!
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Why would a company bid on a contract that puts a cap on the travel if they care about the techs that are making the money for them?
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You always hear the comments about pay in the decade of the 70's and 80's for workers. How does this compare with management pay, such as CEOs?
i didn't google this so don't slam me, but i recently herd that in the 70s, ceo pay was ~20 times (union) labor today it is 2000 times.
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:) Dont some companies already have to some degree that type of program in place ??? without me paying union dues for it ::)
with all the reading on previous posts @ this thread and others, it would definitely appear that most, if not all, of the technician rental companies do not have a program in place a training program. da good news is that you don't hafta pay for it. ;)
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Training...It would be great to get better training and I have touched on that in a previous post but here is a question for you. Did the doctor, lawyer, engineer, marketing executive, CAD operator have to pay for their college education?
Medical...Again, we are temporary staff and in most cases work only part of the year.
In fact I will put the last 3 together.
Vacation, Holiday pay, sick pay...WE WORK FOR A TEMP. AGENCY.
re: training.. outside of the cad operator, these other professions have written contracts in place which govern their compesation or are business owners. neither of which is applicable to contract techs.
re: the rest of the listed here.. temp agency is an employer. lotsa employers are in effect temp agencies. chicago
rebridge and iron comes to mind. so does stone&webster. wotinell duz that hafta due with compensation?[/b]
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Gee, I wonder why a decent new car costs $30K plus!?
'n why is toyota beating da crap outa u.s. domestic producers, when toyota is using union labor to build cars sold in da u.s. of a.?
it's freaking managment.
domestic auto producers agreed to the contracts. so did the unions. but it's da unions fault?
when yer driving down da road, do yew listen to the radio? that announcer you hear is a union person. most radio/tv gigs are 13 weeks in duration. maybe there's something to that union thing, huh?
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Like some others I have purposely avoided weighing in on the flailing of this horse. There are good arguements on both sides of the issue and the advocates have done well in presenting questions and answers for and against. I doubt seriously that anyone has been swayed to the point of being pushed off of their opinion.
I am not going to get into the 'are unions good' debate. The answer is yes and no. They are responsible for a lot of the things workers can now take for granted including tolerable working conditions. They are also responsible for a lot of abuse.
The debate for us needs to focus on 'what do we have,' 'what do we want' and 'what will it cost us?' Focusing on 'what do we have compared to the house techs' is totally irrelevant. The tasks and skills are the same, but the conditions are polar opposites. If you want stability, slightly higher hourly rates, benefits, and the same day-to-day working life, then by all means become a house tech. There are lots of jobs out there. Along with those conditions you will also get some people that you can't stand working with and can't get away from, a LOT of corporate BS, back-stabbing and politics, rotating shifts and people making a lot of decisions for you. It works for some people and not for others. If you want the freedom to chose when and where you work (with some limitations), like the idea of getting to leave about the same time you get fed up with the BS, don't enjoy the politics, and don't mind having your summers off, then maybe the life of a contract tech is good for you.
Can a union change some things for us and raise our wages? Probably so. What will be the cost? We do not know, but I can almost guarantee that the first thing to go will be some of the freedom. Is the money more important than the freedom? We all have to decide that for ourselves... hmmm... decide for ourselves. That would be one of the things that would definitely change. Some of the choices would go away. A couple of people have said that we would get to decide what goes into the negotiations (don't be fooled into thinking we can dictate terms of a contract... look up the word negotiate if you need help on that.) The problem here is that first you will have to sign the card committing yourself before you get any say at all. So, as the old saying goes, "Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances." Would it be worth it? Again, you decide. I have a hard time making decisions where I don't have all the information, and all the information won't be there until the cards are signed and our representatives complete the negotiations. And at the risk of sounding like a pessimist, there are only a handful of people in this industry that I want speaking for me. And somehow I don't think they would be the ones getting elected as representatives.
I happen to like my freedom more than I would like a couple of dollars an hour. That is why I am not working for a utility (among the other conditions listed above.) Others will have different priorities. I also move back and forth between technician jobs that would be in the union and ALARA or Rad Engineer jobs that would not. I like it that way, but unions have a hard time with that. I occasionally get the opportunity to do things that a union would probably not let me do. I like the variety.
I am not anti-union. I worked at Clinton a couple of years back and signed a card to do so. I signed a 'Local 1500' card in 1989. I just think that the trade off would be a bad one for me. As I have heard here many times before, 'I might be wrong.' But I get the feeling I am not.
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Im starting to believe that the commercial road techs are getting treated like second rate techs(JJ might be right). Working with the DOE techs they have a choice of direct deposit. They actually get paid more for having to wear a respirator. Could you imagine if we applied that to commercial? Well I think IM going to fail a couple of pee tests so I can get hired by DOE. Hey is there anyway I can get my 2 dollars back per hour for unused health benefits, it would be nice to have a choice. Im just so glad we work all those hours so the management and office people can get their vacation and sick days. They deserve it and we dont.
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Eric,
It's always good to here your perspective! Do you take as much heat at work as I do? I'll bet you do! Don't listen to RadGhost! You've always been top dog for me. ;) I think you are about 2/3rds correct. The companies want the money, and the techs want the money. You are correct on both counts. What everyone seems to miss here, yes the union wants some money. But the union is all of the workers! It's a non profit organization. Yes they have some high paid officers, but they are elected from the rank and file. Gee, maybe I could even become one. Naw, too many people here think I'm a pain. They make a good wage but it pales in comparison to the utility CEO's. Eric , I hate it for you, because your kind of caught in the middle, but it's not really a bad thing. there are over 700,000 members in the IBEW, quite an impressive number. I don't think that paying some people a good salary to manage that many people is a bad thing, they deserve a fair wage too. The membership can control this too. Do you think they take a big raise automatically without approval? Blaming the unions for the demise of the airlines, and auto industry is also a little bit of a stretch.I just went to VEGAS, and the airport was still busy as hell. Some of the players in trouble, were missmanaged, the survivors weren't. Check the troubled ones pension funds, some are insolvent. Do you think the union did that? They fought to get a pension for their members. It was stolen and or missmanaged by some unscroupulos businessmen. Naturally they blame someone else, I would if I were them too. (11 and the price of oil might have had a little bit to do with their struggles also. Automotive industry was also missmanaged, and still is. Ford is in financial disgrace right now today! Last week I went to their website to price a new car. A 2007 Shelby GT 500. Hot car lists in the mid $40,000's. Everyone would love to have one at this price. They are only making 10,000. You can only get them from certain dealers Ford has choosen. I had the local one call me to tell me they had a convertible, that they would let me have for well over $70,000. Thank You very much. the dealer is pocketing every dime over what he paid to inventory this car and Ford doesn't get a dime of the extra from this contrived shortage.. Why doesn't Ford make 500,000 or 750,000 or as many as will sell, and save their own ass. This is all the unions fault too, I suppose. I worked construction too, same as Eric, first non union for slightly better than minimum wage and no benies. I got my card in 75, and my wages near tripled and had awsome benies. Now rule number one is: The Company always has to make money. If they don't, wipe you __s with your union card, it aint worth a thing. Rule number two: You want big money, you need to do big work. The unions and the companies need to be both fair and resonable when negotiating. The union needs to be self policing also. If thay have substandard members, they need to help bring them up to speed. Eric I think you're the best, save me a slot, I'm probably gonna need it!
JJ :P
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JJ you will never become a high paying union officer if you keep on kissing up to companies' management like that. I like it better when you stand your ground even though Im not much for union while being on the road.
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Alphadude, you are correct, a lot of the problems with business are in management, however a union has to share part of the blame. The mindset of the national union orgs. seems to be that the workers control the company, not the risk takers that started the business in the first place. The common thread of all unions is that they are structured the same way and eventually those near the top have the power and greed and the people actually paying the dues are forgotten or just pawns in some game. This is similar to politicians, all buddy-buddy until they start controlling the purse strings and the power to create stupid laws. Then the voters are forgotten until the next election.
Sloglo, I don't know of any Toyota, Nissan or Honda plants that use union labor. At least not in the south. Where it snows could be different. Not trying to argue, just surprised at the comment.
Alphadude did hit a point. Although the AMA is an organization, they do provide or help provide certified training. It is similar to ANS or HPS. It appears the one of the biggest issues in all of this is training. Since the ANS and HPS don't want the likes of HP's, deconners, etc, why not start an organization with dues paying members. We have a lot of smart people in this business and I'm sure you could find a few willing to help start an organization with membership drives, setting up a ongoing training program that the plants and others would accept, setting up an accounting system, etc., etc. If you don't want to become a member, you don't participate in the program unlike a union where those that don't pay dues still enjoy the benefits as well (in right ot work states). Doesn't seem fair does it?
Keith
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Some food for thought. These numbers are close but not exact.
1990 HP Tech Pay
Positive:
1) Three outages a year in 1990.
2) Average of 70 days per outage.
3) Per Diem $50 per day in 1990 => $10,500.
4) Per Diem for a full week if you completed 40 hrs for the week.
5) $13.50 per hour at 72 hours per week => $1188 gross x 30 weeks per year = $35,640 gross less taxes around $24,948.
6) Average of $300 travel in and $300 travel out of job = $1800 per year.
7) Total = $37,248.
Negative:
1) Free individual insurance and family insurance was $50 per week => $1500 while working.
2) Family insurance went up to approximately $300 per month between spring and fall outages => $1650 out of pocket.
3) Total = $3,150.
Net Take Home for Year: $34,098
2007 HP Tech Pay
Positive:
1) Five outages a year in 2007.
2) Average of 30 days per outage.
3) Per Diem $100 per day in 2007 => $15,000.
4) $23.50 per hour at 72 hours per week => $2068 gross x 21 weeks per year = $43,428 gross less taxes around $30,400.
5) Average of $250 travel in and $250 travel out of job = $2500 per year.
6) Total = $47,900.
Negative:
1) Family insurance is $125 per week => $2625 while working.
2) Family insurance went up to approximately $700 per month between spring and fall outages => $5,250 out of pocket.
3) Lose Per Diem for final two days after layoff => at end of each season => $400.
4) Total = $8,275.
Net Take Home for Year: $39,625.
*Leave out bonus money, hopefully both is relative for each era.
**Both eras had training weeks, so those were left out for ease of calculation.
***Unemployment left out as well; hopefully both are relative for each era.
****Of course who is going to pay $700 per month? Either you have no insurance or you get a policy that costs at least $500 per month on your own.
*****If you are fortunate enough you can get an extra outage (another 30 days).
I did this quick calculation. Please someone check the math or method of calculation. Thanks
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RadGhost,
You are right on the money, about the money. You took them to 102, i think most need remeadiated with 101! A good statistician can make the numbers ay what he wants them to say. Hell on the travel pay even if it's not capped( an awfull lot are) msot techs figure I got $100.00 and only spent $60.00 hey I made money. I get paid the federal max and I get paid my hourly rate when I'm driving. Thats what everyone should get. Like RadGohst said, it's not just the gas. Quit with the comparisons. You have a uniquie situation. Very limited number of techs. It takes 3-5 years to grow a Sr HP, that's if they work steady, and they won't. You can't move the plants overseas. The utilities can go broke, and someone else will buy them up, the consumer will ultimately pay your wages. If they want and need electric, they pay the price, kind of like OPEC and oil, only better! RadGhost you said it all.
Thanks,
JJ ;)
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Biloxi! Kissing Up???? They want my head on a stake right now. Killing would be tooo kind!
I always stand my ground and speak my mind, and also pay the price!
JJ :P
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shawneeman,
Interesting breakout, not too far off, good ballpark figures. My best year ever for Bartlett was $50,000.00 and I worked real steady up until 98 (Thanks Eric) One real big thing you left out though was to adjust for inflation, even though Greespan said there wasn't much! Over 17 years I'll bet the cost of living has almost doubled! Anyone have the stats on that?
JJ ;D
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JJ, I don't have the official government statistics on inflation, but I do know this: 17 years ago vs, today!
That 59 cent loaf of bread cost $2.00 today!
59 cent pack of smokes is between $4.00 - $8.00!
79 cent gallon of gas now averages $2.12!
99 cent gallon of milk is now $4.00!
15 cent pound of chicken wings cost $1.25 today!
99 cent Mc Donald lunch is now about $5.00! Remember that old gingle, Change back from your Buck?
I have yet to figure out, what national gross product they use to gauge inflation. Obviously nothing the average consumer uses! I do know how they gauge the unemployment rate! If your not eligable for a check, than your not unemployed!
biloxoi blues, check this one out, McNamara-O'Hara Service Contract Act of 1965 (SCA)! The World of DOE!
RG
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The things we all buy have gone on up on average 7 - 8% per year over the last 17 years. I agree with RG's numbers. If you go to the Bureau of labor stats however, that loaf of bread only costs .90 today. I guess bread is cheaper in DC. They have a calculator that shows what purchase power you have today. If you made made $35K in 1990, it supposedly has the same buying power of $54K today. Although the gov explains how they come up with these numbers, I believe it is like Navy Nuke School - PFM.
Keith
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The things we all buy have gone on up on average 7 - 8% per year over the last 17 years. I agree with RG's numbers. If you go to the Bureau of labor stats however, that loaf of bread only costs .90 today. I guess bread is cheaper in DC. They have a calculator that shows what purchase power you have today. If you made made $35K in 1990, it supposedly has the same buying power of $54K today. Although the gov explains how they come up with these numbers, I believe it is like Navy Nuke School - PFM.
Keith
80K nowadays doesn't buy what 20K did in 1979. A Sr Rent-a-Tech working 8 months in 1979 made 21K (me) and took the remaining 4 months off in good shape. I remember a lot of my co-workers like myself being married single wage families. Looking at the Rent-a-Tech pool now shows a demographic shift-----not to the better.
A Union might be a good idea, but the IBEW left a bad taste in my mouth from previous interactions with the #@%&+*&^%$#@@.
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darkmatter, if we're trying to tell the average American that we can't make it on $80K in 8 months time plus maximum unemployment for the other four months of the year, and that's why we need union representation, I think that might be a hard sell,......
I don't think there are many contract HP's in this catagory. If Theyre making 80K they aren't off 4 months. When I retired my cardboard boxes, there were some that were struggling to keep their UC paying the maximum rate. now they were working and all. But the way that all of the different laws were with when quarters stopped and started, high quarters, total credit weeks, ect. You had to start paying attention. It's not automatic anymore. really, how many contractors just make 80K, not counting per diem or any expense money? Like RadGhost has told you, exppense money isn't wages!
JJ ???
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darkmatter, if we're trying to tell the average American that we can't make it on $80K in 8 months time plus maximum unemployment for the other four months of the year, and that's why we need union representation, I think that might be a hard sell,......
Marssim, think a minute. I am no longer a contractor Rent-a-Tech (sigh,,I miss those 3-4 months a year off hunting, fishing, and gardening.) I am not in a Union, the 80K only comes with lots & lots of OT and little time off since I'm paying for schooling for my kids to pursue good careers of their choice, not nuclear. I'm not trying to sell anything, just stating the facts as I see em. I do miss the old carefree migrant days of money in my pocket and decisions concerning where shall I hunt this year.
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Eric,
It's always good to here your perspective! You've always been top dog for me. . . Eric , I hate it for you, because your kind of caught in the middle, but it's not really a bad thing. Eric I think you're the best, save me a slot, I'm probably gonna need it!
JJ :P
Some of the quotes that I was referring too. I think that might be considered kissing up. j/k Thanks Rad Ghost for referring me to the 1965 McNamara-Ohara service.act. And thanks everyone for making us feel a little bit older showing the good ole days prices. Hey but working for Bartlett is priceless. JJ, thats how I kiss up. j/K
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Alphadude did hit a point. Although the AMA is an organization, they do provide or help provide certified training. It is similar to ANS or HPS. It appears the one of the biggest issues in all of this is training. Since the ANS and HPS don't want the likes of HP's, deconners, etc, why not start an organization with dues paying members. We have a lot of smart people in this business and I'm sure you could find a few willing to help start an organization with membership drives, setting up a ongoing training program that the plants and others would accept, setting up an accounting system, etc., etc. If you don't want to become a member, you don't participate in the program unlike a union where those that don't pay dues still enjoy the benefits as well (in right ot work states). Doesn't seem fair does it?
Keith
:) See I believe this is the way to go and I think that SEC,Inc could probably be the help we'd need to apply this ... but as I was informed not too long ago when looking for some NRRPT training for this year's goal ..."new years resolution you know" that there was'nt enough interest in the training coarse :-[ However, I would be more apt to pay a monthly due to a company for yearly training vs a union for regulation on my future employment opertunities 8)
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:) See I believe this is the way to go and I think that SEC,Inc could probably be the help we'd need to apply this ... but as I was informed not too long ago when looking for some NRRPT training for this year's goal ..."new years resolution you know" that there was'nt enough interest in the training coarse :-[ However, I would be more apt to pay a monthly due to a company for yearly training vs a union for regulation on my future employment opertunities 8)
Tina,
NRRPT is a one time thing, unless you are into pain, and would like to retest even after you pass. Of course if you fail, you've got to subject yourself to it again until you succceed. I gather the course you are reffering to is one of the many offered, to help tutor interested parties on the intrcacies of the NRRPT. They will come to your site for a fee. I guess SEC doesn't have enough interest to make it economically feasable, because they have an upfront fee to come to a site, and then they also charge a fee per person. I wish i had that before I toook it. I had very little study material, and basically took it kind of cold. You can find theese firms and find out when and where they are offering a course. You would be responsible for the fee, travel, meals and lodging. I think most are about a week long, but not positive. If SEC is as wonderfull as you say, they should be more than happy to refund you ther cost of the course, and the NRRPT testing fee upon successful completion of the exam. Bartlett reimburses the test fee if you are working for them when you take & pass the test. If you had a union, this kind of tutoring would become readily available, also some financial assistance to thoose enterprising techs that whish to improve their marketable skills. As far as continuing training, house techs are required to take some anually, but it's not all it's blown up to be. Only thing is it's INPO accredited, and documented. Read some OE's, review some proceedural changes, learn about new developements and instruments at your particular site. !0 hrs of info crammed into a 40 hr week. Big dissapointment to me, I learn way more on my own, but that and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffeee around here. :P
JJ
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:) See I believe this is the way to go and I think that SEC,Inc could probably be the help we'd need to apply this ... but as I was informed not too long ago when looking for some NRRPT training for this year's goal ..."new years resolution you know" that there was'nt enough interest in the training coarse :-[ However, I would be more apt to pay a monthly due to a company for yearly training vs a union for regulation on my future employment opertunities 8)
BIG OOPS on my part guys.. :-X I really was refering to SES, Inc. so sorry for the error ... :-\
However, if we had it they way klsas put it then some of those expenses would be covered ... 8)
Alphadude did hit a point. Although the AMA is an organization, they do provide or help provide certified training. It is similar to ANS or HPS. It appears the one of the biggest issues in all of this is training. Since the ANS and HPS don't want the likes of HP's, deconners, etc, why not start an organization with dues paying members. We have a lot of smart people in this business and I'm sure you could find a few willing to help start an organization with membership drives, setting up a ongoing training program that the plants and others would accept, setting up an accounting system, etc., etc. If you don't want to become a member, you don't participate in the program unlike a union where those that don't pay dues still enjoy the benefits as well (in right ot work states). Doesn't seem fair does it?
Keith
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Sloglo, I don't know of any Toyota, Nissan or Honda plants that use union labor. At least not in the south. Where it snows could be different. Not trying to argue, just surprised at the comment.
just off the googling...
On January 17, Toyota issued a press release reporting that “1,558,828 vehicles and 1,295,227 engines” were produced in 2005 at its North American plants, adding that “Both figures represent new record production levels for Toyota, which began North American production in 1985.”
Of Toyota’s North American manufacturing, roughly 79 percent of vehicles and 70 percent of engines were assembled in non-right-work states such as California, Indiana, Kentucky and West Virginia. The rest of the vehicles were assembled in Canada or Mexico. Toyota’s plant in Alabama, a right-to-work state, produces just 13 percent of Toyota’s engines. American Honda Motor Company maintains engine and vehicle assembly plants in Ohio and emissions testing facilities in Michigan and Colorado. All three of those states are non-right-to-work states, according to the National Right to Work Foundation, which defines a right-to-work law as one that “secures the right of employees to decide for themselves whether or not to join or financially support a union.”
According to the January 17 release, Toyota is expanding operations at plants in both union and non-union states in 2006, adding 150 new jobs in West Virginia for transmission gear production and a total of 800 workers for an expanded engine plant in Alabama.
'cause eye dawn't want ya two be surprised.
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Tina,
You can find theese firms and find out when and where they are offering a course. You would be responsible for the fee, travel, meals and lodging. I think most are about a week long, but not positive.
most of the training companies i have looked at in the past had a schooling time frame of ~1 week and most were immediately prior to the testing. most of them were common in price, ~$1 - 1.5k, not including room and board. the test is something like $250. and the test will certify that the possessor of the certificate is a person competent in radiation protection technology.
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Sloglo,
It is true that Toyota builds in union states as well as non-union, however Toyota does not have any labor union contracts in place (from Toyota's financial records, various financial research sites, several investment firms, financial magazines, etc). The Google search only told you that they built in certain states. Should the employees ever decide to become union in a union state, all employees at those shops would be required to join the union. Just because you build/ open a business in a union state does not make you union. It appears we have strayed from the topic at hand.
Keith
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Some food for thought. These numbers are close but not exact.
1990 HP Tech Pay
Positive:
1) Three outages a year in 1990.
2) Average of 70 days per outage.
3) Per Diem $50 per day in 1990 => $10,500.
4) Per Diem for a full week if you completed 40 hrs for the week.
5) $13.50 per hour at 72 hours per week => $1188 gross x 30 weeks per year = $35,640 gross less taxes around $24,948.
6) Average of $300 travel in and $300 travel out of job = $1800 per year.
7) Total = $37,248.
Negative:
1) Free individual insurance and family insurance was $50 per week => $1500 while working.
2) Family insurance went up to approximately $300 per month between spring and fall outages => $1650 out of pocket.
3) Total = $3,150.
Net Take Home for Year: $34,098
2007 HP Tech Pay
Positive:
1) Five outages a year in 2007.
2) Average of 30 days per outage.
3) Per Diem $100 per day in 2007 => $15,000.
4) $23.50 per hour at 72 hours per week => $2068 gross x 21 weeks per year = $43,428 gross less taxes around $30,400.
5) Average of $250 travel in and $250 travel out of job = $2500 per year.
6) Total = $47,900.
Negative:
1) Family insurance is $125 per week => $2625 while working.
2) Family insurance went up to approximately $700 per month between spring and fall outages => $5,250 out of pocket.
3) Lose Per Diem for final two days after layoff => at end of each season => $400.
4) Total = $8,275.
Net Take Home for Year: $39,625.
*Leave out bonus money, hopefully both is relative for each era.
**Both eras had training weeks, so those were left out for ease of calculation.
***Unemployment left out as well; hopefully both are relative for each era.
****Of course who is going to pay $700 per month? Either you have no insurance or you get a policy that costs at least $500 per month on your own.
*****If you are fortunate enough you can get an extra outage (another 30 days).
I did this quick calculation. Please someone check the math or method of calculation. Thanks
In addition I did some more calculations comparing the 1990 work schedule to 2007 work schedule with adjustments for 3% raises. Note that I considered from previous calculation the positive and negative cash flows. See my calculations below:
(30wks)(72 hrs/wk) ($13.50/hr) = ($34,098)
(21wks)(72 hrs/wk) (x) = ($34,098) =>
X = $18.45
With the reduced outage time at 1990 pay standard, to make up for lost hours you would have to boost hourly wage to $18.45.
Now add in inflation for cost of living of 3% per year. Note this is a HP Tech 3.1 Senior. 5 year, 7 year, and NRRPT would be higher hourly rates.
Year HP Tech Pay
1990 $13.50
1991 $13.91
1992 $14.33
1993 $14.76
1994 $15.20
1995 $15.66
1996 $16.13
1997 $16.61
1998 $17.11
1999 $17.62
2000 $18.15
2001 $18.69
2002 $19.25
2003 $19.83
2004 $20.42
2005 $21.03
2006 $21.66
2007 $22.31
For example:
(30wks)(72 hrs/wk) ($22.31/hr) = ($50,454): Commercial HP Tech Work Year 1990
(21wks)(72 hrs/wk) (x) = ($50,454): Commercial HP Tech Work Year 2007
X = $27.30/hr: for a HP Tech 3.1 Senior (Most plants pay an additional $5 per hour completion bonus of current $22.50 non-NRRPT Tech=> $27.50/hr. If adjusted to the reduction of outage time, then the hourly would be $27.30 + $5.00 completion bonus.)
With all bonus money included:
$22.30 for Junior HP
$27.30 for 18.1 Senior HP
$32.30 for 3.1 Senior HP
$33.30 for 5 Year Senior HP
$34.30 for 7 Year Senior HP
$35.30 for NRRPT HP
$37.30 for HP Supervisor
$40.30 for ALARA HP
Remember for those who think this is high; this is without any benefits of a permanent employee.
Comments
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shawneeman,
Im sure we would all like to see that list of the bonus paying companies and customers, especially the $5.00 per hour ones! NRRPT, basiclly worthless in the commercial industry, not even recognized as the NEU equivelant at a large number of facilities, nice if your applying for a perm position, but worthless other wise! Things have probably changed a little bit, but NRRPT use to be at 5 years, or better. One of the qualifications for NRRPT, use to be a minimum of 5 years experience to test. Probably changed! I'd like to see a comparison chart of contract company profits vs. your stat's!
KUDOS, RG
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The Exelon circuit. Their three in a row bonus, returnee, and incentives comes to about $5.00. All the plants I have worked accept NRRPT (current) instead of NEU and Exelon offers an hourly increase for having it as well. So it works for me. I am sure they will be beating down the door to tell us about their profits too!
Every where a tech goes, the bean counters are cutting every corner. I sure don't see anyone watching our interest. I am no different from the rest. I have a family that I got to support as well. Any walkout would mean serious business financially for all of us. Lets face it, how many of you can negotiate your way to what the industry has done versus our pay since 1990? Sure most of the techs now probably have a devil may care attitude. Live for today, who cares about tomorrow. But tomorrow is here.
The industry is willing to pay for a free ride for new people to go through the LINN School for health physics, but not pay a fair wage to the ones who are keeping them fed. I can't believe the techs out there are that naive that the employers are out for our best interest, grow up and fight for you and your kids’ future.
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... "NRRPT, basiclly worthless in the commercial industry, not even recognized as the NEU equivelant at a large number of facilities, nice if your applying for a perm position, but worthless other wise!"
...three quarters of the plants pay additional wages for nrrpt...
interesting that someone so respected would post the quote...
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NRRPT exempted me from taking the NEU once it got it. Some sites paid $1.00/ hr more to the ones that had it. You had to have 5yrs to test, but gave partial credit for other lifes experiences, like college. I don't think many new 5 yr techs will fare well on this test. Kinda rough, and a lot not dealing with commercial power. Worthless, I don't think so, but that's just me. The college credits you got for $150.00 (when I took it.) was a bargin!
JJ 8)
PS If you can pass NRRPT, the NEU is a cake walk!
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Sloglo,
It is true that Toyota builds in union states as well as non-union,
It appears we have strayed from the topic at hand.
Keith
"Toyota's Union Wants Wage Hike
Bill Belew December 19, 2006
Know More: Doing Business in Japan business, demand, employee, federation, global, japan, toyota motors corp., union, wage hike
Toyota Motor Corp.'s labor union is planning to seek a wage hike for the second year in a row.
If Toyota is going to make so much money, it figures that the guys and girls making the cars are going to want their share of it.
Toyota's factories are running at full capacity to keep up with global demand.
The requested wage hike will be $9-18/month per employee.
The Japan Business Federation (Nippon Keidanren) is cautioning againt union demands.
For some reason, they don't think Toyota can spare any of the expected 2.2 trillion ($10 billion) profit it will make this year.
Company's make money....unions put their hands out. Where were the unions back when the company was risking all, and owners were refinancing their houses and going through divorces because wives wouldn't go along with it, and alienating children because they were working long long hours and such?
Every worker should be paid fairly..even receive a bonus when they do extra.
But, if an employer is fair...there is no need for a union....unless you don't mind paying more for your cars. I mind."
all i know is that toyota has union production. it appears it may be homeland based. hmmmmm...... kinda makes ya wonder 'iffen it's good enuff for the homeboys, why ain't it good enuff for da americans?'.... huh? 'n to bring dis full circle, most all of the nuclear industry in the western world is unionized. why are contract hps feeling they must be so different? why do they cross the country to collect high unemployment but are unwilling to join with the rest of the industry to attain what others have?
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shawneeman is correct. You need to come together and bargin as one. It needs to happen ASAP while you are in a position of strenght. BTW Linn Tech isn't the only school being fuded by the utilities. Duke has a co-op started. Progress is meeting with scools as we speak. Ge also has a program going.You can do something now, tommorow will be too late. They are going to kick you to the curb first chance they get with younger cheaper labor. :'(
JJ
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Excellent information shawneeman and wlrun3,
On the other side of the coin, NMC, Entergy and TVA recognize NRRPT as Poo! Sure they like having techs show up with the credential, and they even like having those little plaques on the wall from the house staff, but it's meaningless at their facilities. If I am incorrect on my observations, then these utilities need to know that their HP contractor supplier, offers no incentives or compensation for it! The utilities can dismiss that situation by saying they simply didn't know, or it's not their business, but it's their house and if the candy jar isn't available to their guest, then they are Piss Poor Hosts! Those utilities must be the missing quarter? Collage Credits, 28 to 32 credit hours, depending on the degree curriculum, is a huge selling point and a nice reason to at least take a stab at it. By the way, I strongly promote the organization, but only as a level of self achievement and very rarely advertise the credential. Yes, I am on the active members list, so I have the right to that opinion, based on my experiences and observations!
Union, am I For, or Against? I'm somewhere in the middle, (sound swishy washy)! JJ brings a lot of knowledge to the forum from his experiences with the IBEW. Sign the cards, get the numbers and take a list of represented technicians to the utilities/contract companies. I believe most technicians hesitate do so, due to the past speculative nature of the contractor industry. If they hear or see my name, I'll never get a job in the future, or limited opportunities! Probably true in the past, but I believe things are much different today! Signing the card is a contract agreement! An agreement that appears to be unavailable to us, which is pretty much how things are run with the contract companies today! Most, if not all may agree, very distasteful! Like I said before, Pay-Per-View, or Pay-Before-View! Walk Outs, Strikes and So On! From my experience, most of the IBEW contracts are formulated under a No Strike Clause! A contract violation if the union strikes, while the company is negotiating! You walk out and the union is going to be on your tail and they do have penalties they can serve against their members!
Actually organizing the technicians industry, is as simply as each technician agreeing to communicate with their fellow technicians! The primary tool of today’s contract companies is Lack of Communications. They really don't want us to talk to each other, in any way, shape, or form! Isolating a techncian and being their buddy, has always been the best method of negotiations. They certainly don't want us to agree with each other on any topic. Lets say fifty technicians make the decision to align themselves and draft a negotiation venue to satisfy the membership, (free of charge and not signing a contract), then stick to it! When the companies call and make their offer, everybody shares the information among the membership! OMG, that would be scary! Technicians having the availability to make informed decisions; all the deals, incentives, wages and perks simultaneously distributed between fifty techs! No more he said, she said, they said, he got, or she got! The ability to see what the variables are vs. the force feed information! I've seen the feedback from the some members who run their own agenda and have great opportunities, good for you! Your probably the model contractor employee, they call, you go! If it hasn't caught up to you yet, it will! For those employees, (without any feedback to my question), have you honestly set your own course, or simply the best course, based on what the company offered?
What kind of influence would fifty technicians have? More than one could probably imagine! Any company, (about ten I can think of), would be more than appreciative of a list of 50 availability, qualified technicians. The number of available opportunities in any given season will probably remain constant; making those opportunities more beneficial would be totally up to the members! Sound like the perfect world? I don't want to make it sound too good to resist, it wouldn't be easy and some sacrifices would probably have to be made, but at least you would have the informed ability to make them!
The industry is currently at the beginning of the HP technician feeding frenzy, (my opinion)! The resurrection of nuclear power, (13 Billion in available US Government Incentives, global warming and 180 flip of some green organizations), has brought it closer to a reality! They know the manpower shortage is going to cause problems at crunch time, especially since we are one of the few disciplines with a specific qualification criteria. I do agree that time is running short for the venue, very short! I believe the anticipated commercial operation of the next generation power plant, is somewhere in 2014, or about 4 years after official ground breaking. If doing business the same old way adds to your security, then by all means continues with their agenda! If you’re looking for a more stable future, then I suggest you find a new one! We have seen lots of information on this threat, good, bad and indifferent! I believe everybody who has posted a comment to this thread is in agreement with one thing, “There is a Necessity for Improvement”!
Have A Great Day, RG!
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Communication does go a long way. Posting pay grades in a common area would help level things. Open communication is best-however disclosure of pay grades must be done with care- If you are non-union and wish to stay that way, set standards for your self and then stick by them..
*Set minimum pay requirements and don't go below this.
*Get signed agreements on pay grade and listed benefits.
*Accept responsibility, if you sign an agreement and it meets your pay criteria, refrain from snivels and whines when you find out someone else has a different pay grade.
*Learn negotiation skills.
*Avoid the "per diem" fog, look at your base pay and that only. ALL wage determination by you should be based on this only. (do not include per diem and OT in your base pay rate) The CONUS rates do vary and you have no control over this. However, part of your hourly wages can be "deffered" into "per diem" thus giving you tax free money. Look up the CONUS rate and discuss with your employer about making up the difference from your pay. OT is not a benefit.. You actually work for less money after 60 hours a week. (When you get past 50 years old it really sucks.)
*Get bonded and go 1099. (PAY your taxes on time or you will be sorry)
*Set up a 401k.
*Enhance your education level and skills-this will always pay off, if done right. Why be a tech when you can be an engineer? (mo money mo money mo money)
*Join a professional organization.
As it looks here there are only two solutions- union or whats listed above. The fringe portion of "Why isnt life fair?" types only stir the pot and don't offer any real solutions. The union is one viable solution, and so are the points I have offered. Pick one and live with it.
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Communication does go a long way. Posting pay grades in a common area would help level things. Open communication is best-however disclosure of pay grades must be done with care- If you are non-union and wish to stay that way, set standards for your self and then stick by them..
*Set minimum pay requirements and don't go below this.
*Get signed agreements on pay grade and listed benefits.
*Accept responsibility, if you sign an agreement and it meets your pay criteria, refrain from snivels and whines when you find out someone else has a different pay grade.
*Learn negotiation skills.
*Avoid the "per diem" fog, look at your base pay and that only. ALL wage determination by you should be based on this only. (do not include per diem and OT in your base pay rate) The CONUS rates do vary and you have no control over this. However, part of your hourly wages can be "deffered" into "per diem" thus giving you tax free money. Look up the CONUS rate and discuss with your employer about making up the difference from your pay. OT is not a benefit.. You actually work for less money after 60 hours a week. (When you get past 50 years old it really sucks.)
*Get bonded and go 1099. (PAY your taxes on time or you will be sorry)
*Set up a 401k.
*Enhance your education level and skills-this will always pay off, if done right. Why be a tech when you can be an engineer? (mo money mo money mo money)
*Join a professional organization.
As it looks here there are only two solutions- union or whats listed above. The fringe portion of "Why isnt life fair?" types only stir the pot and don't offer any real solutions. The union is one viable solution, and so are the points I have offered. Pick one and live with it.
*Set minimum pay requirements and don't go below this.
Yes we do, but as Huey Pierce Long once put it, We are hicks, who is going to care about a hicks pay. When utilities and RPMs meet on a regular basis on man power, who is smarter, surely not us hicks!
*Get signed agreements on pay grade and listed benefits. What planet are you on alphadude. In Hicksville we say yes sir and no sir and how high sir!
*Accept responsibility, if you sign an agreement and it meets your pay criteria, refrain from snivels and whines when you find out someone else has a different pay grade. You are not in Hicksville, we can't even spell hellf fysics! Just rad, smear, and air!! Us hicks are too dumb to hardly even work at nuklear plants. But we can take enuf time to pe in a bottle so we can work.
*Learn negotiation skills. Us hicks never even passed high school.
*Avoid the "per diem" fog, look at your base pay and that only. ALL wage determination by you should be based on this only. (do not include per diem and OT in your base pay rate) The CONUS rates do vary and you have no control over this. However, part of your hourly wages can be "deffered" into "per diem" thus giving you tax free money. Look up the CONUS rate and discuss with your employer about making up the difference from your pay. OT is not a benefit.. You actually work for less money after 60 hours a week. (When you get past 50 years old it really sucks.) Whew all can figur is what I gots in my hick pocket. It is too hard to figur, how I needs is enuf money till next pay day. I can go sell sum blood to get sum money for my kids new chuws.
*Enhance your education level and skills-this will always pay off, if done right. Why be a tech when you can be an engineer? (mo money mo money mo money). Now why wud I want to ride a train?
*Join a professional organization. Hicks can do that. Then we can give our dollars and cents to someone to so they can tell us how smart they are why they muk it up on their boon doggles a couple a times a year.
As it looks here there are only two solutions- union or whats listed above. The fringe portion of "Why isnt life fair?" types only stir the pot and don't offer any real solutions. The union is one viable solution, and so are the points I have offered. Pick one and live with it. People running for office each year, seem to do fine on this idea. Get elected, work two or fours years and get a pension. I guess us hicks like to stir the pot so some well to do can sit there and look down on us poor hicks.
Got to go and slop the pigs!
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Ouch!
Gentleman to your corners!
Sometimes we need a Moderator and sometimes we need a Mediator!
RG
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The contract companies could careless if we made $100/hr or $50/hr. They take their cut for a service, I do not see problem with that. But when scraps off the table become crumbs, its time to start nibbling on the toes of the ones who trample on us!
Suey! Suey!
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So what is your solution? Give some positive solutions in lieu of "Unions done us wrong or killed the economy" smoke screen. Either sell your services professionally or collectively- was the point of discussion.
Quantify who trampled on us.. would be a good start. Has someone been forced to take a job by some prospective employer?
The information I provided is the type of information I would give any student just starting the business.
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As Mr. Jordan and many others have stated:
1) Get a proposal from a union of what things us hicks are looking for. This has been going on this thread for a while.
2) Not strike, but have an ongoing process of negotiations between the employers and the utitilities themselves.
3) Wages are off by about $5.00/hr roughly from where they should be.
4) Some partial pay down of medical insurance if you work so many hours per year for a company.
5) More people would stay in the business if they could have these items.
Trampled being; not having representation in the room when hourly and bonus pay are being discussed. I seemed to remember the Boston Tea Party: where taxes levied on tea, but in this instance we never got the money to start with to buy the tea.
As for the part of being forced to take a job, no one has forced someone to take a job. Just as people have been discriminated in the past to glass ceilings, whether you were female or african american you still have to support your family.
Information given to a student starting the business, I too know so well. For I have contact with graduates from my school, RCT Training Program of SES, Inc.
Many go directly to DOE Contractors and the rest of highly recruited by Atlantic Group. We try to instill in them a pride and professionalism that they are the last line of defense for a utility to protect their workers, general public, and their plant.
This is why I want them, you, and other fellow co-workers to be represented so we all can live in prosperity.
I do come across strong for a hick, but that is my nature: straight shooter.
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Why be an engineer when ya can be a CEO? I would never settle on being just an engineer (mo money, mo money)
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1) Get a proposal from a union of what things us hicks are looking for. This has been going on this thread for a while.
Sign the cards. Thats the way it works. It is a problem with IBEW since RATs would not be the majority of the population in the union... lineman and operators usually get to call the shots on items to included in the contract..
2) Not strike, but have an ongoing process of negotiations between the employees and the utitilities themselves.
Unfortunately, negotiations are not ongoing when the contract is in place. If you are in negotiation you either dont have a contract or its ending soon. You only strike when the contact is in violation or the company is forcing workers to perform tasks not specified in the contract.. there are no gray areas in the contract or areas not covered.. if there is you strike..
3) Wages are off by about $5.00/hr roughly from where they should be.
Based on what criteria?
4) Some partial pay down of medical insurance if you work so many hours per year for a company.
Fair enuff.... but this has to be negotiated.
5) More people would stay in the business if they could have these items.
People are staying the business anyway!!!
Age is the major contribution to the attritian rate for technicians now- all the atomic age guys are gone, all the pre-ANSI types have moved on (me), most of the Rickover hand picks have moved on, and the HP highschool types are getting a little long in the tooth-
I'm in management, so I don't get to be a card carrier.
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"Here is a plan.. for management.. Increase the amount of people being trained for HPs. Start training programs in house, take in entry level, go out to tech schools and support those. In 5 years- cost of contractor techs would drop about 1/4 due to the influx of more trained workers trying to fill only so many positions.. people would take less money in an effort to support a degrading life style."..."I'm in management."
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I hope all the players voted on the topic. I thought this was a poll. I am glad I am prosperous. Oh.....NO
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maybe i got all this wrong. i thought this discussion wuz bout gettin a nucleer contractors local together. iffen this isa case, then woodent we be the ones two discuss contract points? woodent we be the ones to decided watt wood the classifications of different levels of skill, in udder words, what makes a journeyman, an apprentice, 'n all points in between? woodent we vote on, and have as a platform to take to the employers, our concerns? rad ghost posted some valid points a couple of times. i'm generally in favor of the majority of those. if it was put to a vote, mine wood be <aye>.
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SloGlo,
I'd second the motion, but I don't have a vote here! I have one at BNP, and I'm for a union. I'm just trying to steer and give you some guidance and some factual information. There seems to be many misconceptions of how all of this wil transpire. It is all law, so look it up on the NLRB web site. alphadude, the IBEW wants the transient workers, ie RAT's, deconners, ect. Not already covered by a union agreement. This eliminates the operators, and lineman. They are most likely in the IBEW, if not they need to do likewise and organize at their plant. Now how the card works seems to be a major stumbling block. OK one more time: You sign a card, this card authorizes the IBEW to represent you to get the right to bargin collectively (whomever the NLRB deems to be eligelbe to vote) This is not a contract! The contract companies nor the utilities ever see this card. The cards go to the NLRB, who do a head count of all of the people they determine to be eligible to vote. 30% is the bare minimum to schedule a vote. At 50% the IBEW is required by law to ask the employers to recognize you as a majority and bargin with you collectively. Now you've got a better chance of seeing Elvis, than for the employers to throw in the towel without a vote. But this is a bit different than organizing a plant. The contract companies are all middlemen, and it doesn't hurt them one way or the other. Unless some non union company tries to lowball a bid. Which will probably happen. Being that over 80% of the nukes are already union, the unions will exert pressure to only use union contractors.OK back on track, when the IBEW determines who is eligible, they will schedule a vote (mail in ballot? I'm not sure!) The card is still not a contract. If you signed one, you can still vote no, and you can also get it back if you change your mind. (we've had a few sell out, or gone brain dead, they got theirs back. No problem!) Oh by the way no one knows how you vote. It's a secret ballot to protect everyone! After you win the election, You determine what you want in your contract, and how you want to run things: ie officers, senority, pension, holidays, hospitilization, ect. The IBEW may have some ideas as to how you can make it work, but You have to make it work. They will help you , but can't do it for you. $5.00 low? I was thinking closer to $10.00 I make about $32.50, if you do the same work, and give up part of your lives. Why shouldn't you be compensated closely to what the house techs make? Is my survey better than yours? Think about it. I'm in my comfort zone. You all have to wing it outge after outage. It's harder being a contractor. Trust me, I've done both. Ya'll need too get your s**t together before they run a bunch of kids in on you who'll work for peanuts, cause thats way more than Burger King pays! Don't need hospitilization cause they're young and healthy. What's a 401K for? A pension, hey I'm never gonna get old! Take a good long hard look in the mirror, because what I just described was you 20-25 years ago, and a good many haven't grown up yet! They're comming and you're all going! And you're all going to go together, so why not get together now, and slow down the process. Make it on your terms not theirs. You have a small window of oportunity here, take advantage of it. Oh yeah I almost forgot, the IBEW only reccomends a strike as the absolutley last resort, and they do have a lot of contracts with no strike clauses. They also can fine a member that breaks his agreement, and they should be able too. If you give your word, doesnt that mean something to you? It does me! Nobody will force you to join, but if you break your word thhat hurts the organization. It may come as quite a shock to most of you, but not everyone is reputable! No Way! I believe everyone in the break trailer!
Whew! 7 1/2 cents worth.
JJ ;D
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(note: the card I was refering to is the request petition for representation-not to join.)
JJ you are preaching to the choir
Im all for collective representation-It makes things a whole lot easier-Point being HPs at this time in history have the ability to take hold of the ole canoles and squeeze tite.. but it ain't happening, WTF!! The only way it can be accomplished is by the collective. What is the case here are- Individuals making enuff noise to hinder the process or are do less than 49% of HPs want the union- in that case give it up-(too many superstars?)
We tried bringing in HPs thru the local-the per diem junkies killed that idea! Which may be the crux of the issue- WILL WORK FOR PER DIEM!! Perhaps this issue goes deeper than just we want to work- It really seems that it is a "I want it my way" issue. I want to stay at my home Ive had for years-I want my 3 months of doing nothing to do what I want, and I want to pick where I go, I want tax free money in excess of what I need to live off of, drag up when I want too, and pick the shift I want etc...
As for us house types- we went there expecting to stay there for a while because those that do get the long haul rewards! educational benefits, union wage, medical, retirement and so on...
So can anybody come up with a simple plan that allows migrant types to be sunshine union worker? JJs perspective is from a long haul situation- me Im just looking in from the outside and so far I see that the union aint a happening and aint never gonna happen. Its all about demographics...
If you want to organize provide some simple step by step ways of doing that and end this thread-
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the sound of one hand clapping---nice ;D
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the sound of one hand clapping---nice ;D
Looks like its about done then?
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Oh I don't know, we'll see if there are any more questions that need clarification. 362 posts and almost 8000 views. I think a few people are slightly interested.
JJ :o
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So can anybody come up with a simple plan that allows migrant types to be sunshine union worker? JJs perspective is from a long haul situation- me Im just looking in from the outside and so far I see that the union aint a happening and aint never gonna happen. Its all about demographics...
Yeah! ..... what he said!
-Walt
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SloGlo,
Ya'll need too get your s**t together before they run a bunch of kids in on you who'll work for peanuts, cause thats way more than Burger King pays!
'n that's not the only nasty scenario comming down the pike, it's just the most personal. butt to stay on this logic line, will one of the illustrious management types run the research 'n post what it would actually take for the power plant industry to change their definition of hp tech?
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I am not in management, but to change the definition of what an HP is, you have to change the ANSI Standard... not impossible, but not at all likely to change it to make it less stringent. The chance of being replaced by 'a bunch of kids' is nil. Just what we need in a serious discussion is scare tactics. JJ lost all of his credibility in my mind just by bringing that one up. What a shame.
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I am not in management, but to change the definition of what an HP is, you have to change the ANSI Standard... not impossible, but not at all likely to change it to make it less stringent.
yet in the mid 80s the definition of a 3.1 changed. prior it had been an hpt with 36 months of commercial operating nuclear power plant time. then it changed to 36 months of commercial nuclear power plant time. only one word change, but it opened the 3.1 door to masses of outage techs who had not any operating plant time. does anyone remember how long this change had been in the works before it was enacted?
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no way would I be part of the IBEW you need to wear a flea coller
besides what would they do for you anyways? go ahead I would cross any line I got a house to pay for and people to feed.
besides if you did when I would get all the same bennys and not have to join ! it is called right to work.
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in the real world of things- those not meeting the criteria for ANSI hp (SR) can still work at SR pay grade under the JPM. If that person has completed the required training in that specific task and meets the qualification (signed off) he or she can be upgraded to perform the specific task at SR pay grade. Its been done thousands of times and its accepted by the NRC and the union. So there is variance to the ANSI standard. As for bringing in "kids", they would still have to complete training and be qualified prior to performing SR level tasks.
Keep it going ramdog- gives dime a dozen new meaning... it the present situation when there are those willing to undercut the collective-(and there are lots of them) utilities can get all the workers they need at the price they want! Ramdog provided an excellent example of that. Ramdog when you screw up you dont get all the benefits as the union. Management can get rid of those non-union pukes in a heart beat. no representation, no grievance process- just DFR. Its a long drawn out process with a union guy and they usually get to stay for another chance.
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DFR is what you have had all your life if you want a union go house.
there is a lot more to be in a compnay that is union they have to have an agrement with a union signed. then the super calls the hall and says send me 3 more bodys. they will go for locals frist then they ask for travlers. so do not think you been there a lot and some house puke likes you when it is with the hall they take who they get at the site.
I am sure we the union will protect the sick lame and lazy and the worker who calls in sick every monday.
good luck like I say go house you want to be union
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and there lies the situation- on one side you have workers that feel confident about what they do -such as ramdog- in the middle you have workers that want it both ways- but are unwilling to go union- and then you have those that want representation- I would say that both extremes have their good and bad points but its a working system- the fence sitters should choose and decide how they want to live- talk to those like ramdog that seem confident in what they do or talk to JJ to see his side of the situation. pick a side and live with it!
At present there are too many anti union HP techs to form a collective- (tending towards conservative politics) the pro union group seems to be a minority with the middle of the road swaying towards the antiunion. The demographics of US politics is well represented in this work force and reflects the current political position of Americans in general.
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...the fence sitters should choose and decide how they want to live...
I'm not sure whether I agree with this...or not... ;)
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Management can get rid of those non-union pukes in a heart beat. no representation, no grievance process- just DFR. Its a long drawn out process with a union guy and they usually get to stay for another chance.
I have seen plenty of Union Craft DFR'd for a screw up. And it didn't always have to be something bad, either. They were travellers and had no more of a second chance than an HP. Actually, in my experience at least; road techs often get more 2nd chances than the union craft guys, even if the road techs are non-union. Perhaps that is the result of being able to call the hall and get another guy sent right over. Makes it easier to DFR some poor guy to make an example out of him.
Towards the end of an outage I've always heard more union craft complaining about how they are getting laid off. And with good reason. Getting turned around practically at the gate at beginning of shift....4 hour notice if they are really lucky....meanwhile us HP types are passing lists around the break rom of when we would LIKE to leave or how long we WANT to stay. I know we don't always get our choice....but there have been lottsa times we were GIVEN a choice. Union plant or not.
I've worked both Union and non-Union plants. Even have my IBEW card (somewhere around here) from NJ. Personally I haven't seen any real benefit as a road tech from being union. Nor have I seen any comparative disadvantages being non-union. I was at Perry years ago when the local IBEW was trying to get HP's interested in organizing and from what little I saw of the proposed contract we would have made LESS money (before subtracting dues) had we gone with the union. In all fairness, that was a poorly organized effort and I truly believe the local hall at the time was more interested in getting more members to fund a better Christmas party for the local members than they cared about road techs.
Guess all this hot air just puts me 'on the fence'. 8)
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Hey Bil
Why be an engineer when ya can be a CEO? I would never settle on being just an engineer (mo money, mo money)
Hey Biloxi why be a SR HP when you can be an RPM or RSO and you know what I mean.
[/quote
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As for bringing in "kids", they would still have to complete training and be qualified prior to performing SR level tasks.
this takes about an extra 3 days prior to outage to run an entire crew thru the jpm. bin der, dun dat.
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I am not in management, but to change the definition of what an HP is, you have to change the ANSI Standard... not impossible, but not at all likely to change it to make it less stringent. The chance of being replaced by 'a bunch of kids' is nil. Just what we need in a serious discussion is scare tactics. JJ lost all of his credibility in my mind just by bringing that one up. What a shame.
Rodger,
I'm sorry that you don't think my argument is credible. Is it because you don't agree, or think it can't or won't happen? We hada meeting today with supervision to do exactly what I said they were going to do. We are going to partner with several Community, Jr. and 4 year colleges to train the kids I was telling you were comming. The scary part to everyone should be, we are probably one of the last to get untracked. Their are some already in the pipeline. Not everyone was asleep at the wheel. GE is going to start their 3rd class shortly. Duke power already has a program going. Look at the tops of the pages here. Linn tech has a program going, and there are more. The colleges we talked to are foaming at the mouth to start. Why? Lots of federal money? Homeland security, you tax dollars at work. I'm just a dumb ass knuckle dragger, so I'll let you all tell me how they get ANSI qualified. If you just go to school first and get your degree in Applied Health Physics in 2 yrsThis doesn't count for 2 years working in your proffesion. I believe they get a little credit, you can tell me how much, but it;s a moot point. They will be getting 2 years credit in 2 years, because as a Co Op student they will be actually working as they go to school, and will be taking part of their college curriculum on site. Probably given by some of our instructors. Now doesn't 2 years of time make them 18.1 qualified? Better yet, while I'm training them to replace you all. They do ALLof the work, and I just supervise them, and then sign behind them! I asked for at least 12. At that rate we won't need many contractors in say about 5 years or so. Your only saving grace will be, the utilities are cheap and they won't pay someone year round. So there will always be some contractors. But they're going to flood the market and drive down your wages. Oh and I know that as soon as I train all of your youngins to replace me, they're going to try to kick me to the curb as well. I'm a realist. What am I going to do? I'm getting me a union, so my last 15 years or so are a bit more lucrative than all of the fence sitters. If you snooze we all loose!
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As for bringing in "kids", they would still have to complete training and be qualified prior to performing SR level tasks.
It won't take any longer than anyone else! All they need is my signature behind theirs, and they can do anything I can! I can do this while they're still redbadged if we want. Only things they have to do is pass GET and basic rad worker, and the P test! Last one is the tuff one for the kids!
Sorry,
JJ ::)
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Anyone that is worried about training new JUNIOR techs (which is exactly what you are talking about) needs to get out of this business. We have already had threads bemoaning the lack of new techs coming in to replace us and how hard it is going to be for us to move on to bigger and better things. We NEED juniors. As for replacing us, that is what eventually happens. Any utility foolish enough to let new juniors loose to do senior level work with nothing but a signature of a qualified senior deserves what they will get. I say bring them on. If you are afraid of them, get out of the way.
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Right on the money as usual Roger......... I couldn't put it better myself.
Mike
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seems to got away from Union stuff.
I was in a union for 11 years house it was ok but as will I was at dresdon in the old days. who recalls the union house control points and our control pionts?
plus you can not use the bathrooms or lunch rooms.
I am at a amrem site now and we can not even talk to a house person for fear of being run off.
like they say it is there sand box.
you want bennys will you need to get real full time spot somewhere.
somethings would be nice but you never get 20 hp techs to go the same path.
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I sincerely doubt that a signature imparts the years of experience and the skillset to implement that experience, but you already knew that!
If the client (or utility) wants to take these excursions into risk management (i.e. operating cost benefit vs liability costs risk), and they lose that gamble, they deserve all the costs incurred when they lose,....that's just part of the downside to capitalism in a litigious society,....
but we're all big boys and grown ups, and we have to pay up when we screw up,.....
Maybe I should have said under my direct supervision for all of the naysayers that are twisting the intent of my posts. I realize that by signing behind someone (trainee0 I am assumiong full liability for the actions of said person. It's not any more liability for the utility than having me do it myself, I'm still liable, and so are they.I train people everyday, and don't have a problem with it. Yes we need Jrs, but at a controlled rate, too many at onec makes it tough to find work. Unions help with that.They also help with training. This was a big topic for disscusion at the Nuclear conference in Vegas last year. The union has apprenticeship programs and partners with colleges at some sites. They do a lot of beneficial things. I'm sorry that people get treated badly at some sites. It may not have anything to do with the union, might just be the people there. But if the contractors were also union, maybe the house people wouldn't feel as threatened ,and or would feel a commonality with you.
Just a Thought,
JJ ;)
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I sincerely doubt that a signature imparts the years of experience and the skillset to implement that experience, .....
like alphadude sayed a cupla days ago..
"those not meeting the criteria for ANSI hp (SR) can still work at SR pay grade under the JPM."
these are not scare tactics, or phrases to intimidate. they are our world in a sentence. same as when i posted about the change in 3.1 by ansi. there are alot of hpt reading these pages who woodent have gone past the 18.1 level if it hadn't been for that change. there are alot of very good 18.1 who get upgraded to 3.1 responsiblility levels because it can be done. this is life. yes, jr hpt are needed. yes, power plant hp coverage needs to be increased. not to worry. but, if 500 people are trained for 50 house slots, where do the balance go? what happens to the pay rates when the active job seekers increase by 15%? alot of people remember the wage stagnation in the 80s. which happened to occur when lots of tmi trained techs hit the road along with the normal influx of peeple (shipyards, navy, etc.). none of those people would have had impact on the wages if it hadn't been for the change in the ansi 3.1 rating. yet, kin ya remember what did happen?
to paraphase churchill, iffen ya don't remember history, you will repeat it.
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like alphadude sayed a cupla days ago..
"those not meeting the criteria for ANSI hp (SR) can still work at SR pay grade under the JPM."
these are not scare tactics, or phrases to intimidate. they are our world in a sentence. same as when i posted about the change in 3.1 by ansi. there are alot of hpt reading these pages who woodent have gone past the 18.1 level if it hadn't been for that change. there are alot of very good 18.1 who get upgraded to 3.1 responsiblility levels because it can be done. this is life. yes, jr hpt are needed. yes, power plant hp coverage needs to be increased. not to worry. but, if 500 people are trained for 50 house slots, where do the balance go? what happens to the pay rates when the active job seekers increase by 15%? alot of people remember the wage stagnation in the 80s. which happened to occur when lots of tmi trained techs hit the road along with the normal influx of peeple (shipyards, navy, etc.). none of those people would have had impact on the wages if it hadn't been for the change in the ansi 3.1 rating. yet, kin ya remember what did happen?
to paraphase churchill, iffen ya don't remember history, you will repeat it.
Exactly Sloglo,
This is the point I'm trying to make. We are negotiating with several colleges to bring in techs. Lets say we cut a deal with just 1. We have 4 sites and 5 reactors. Each PGn site picks up say 5 people a year. We need help, and we also have 4 reactors on the drawing board, so we might go to thoose levels. Duke, Entergy , FPL, Dominion, AmGen Constellation, etc. All do the same. We are all similar, and the egos running the show, don't want to be left out. So every year for say just 3 years the utilities bring in about 150-200 newbies, where are you at? You've just about doubled the number of thechs working commercial. Then the new Clinton (EWWWW!) administation cancels all of the incentives for new nukes. No utility will touch it without Fed assistance. They all have big ego's but little stones! Where you all at now? Wages will stagnate and or decline due to a glut of workers. (supply and demand) Get rid of the older more expensive ones when possible, and go with the ones that will work for peanuts every time!
Another Thought,
JJ
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Wages will stagnate and or decline due to a glut of workers. (supply and demand) Get rid of the older more expensive ones when possible, and go with the ones that will work for peanuts every time!
Another Thought,
JJ
This school of thought assumes that the youngster with "three years of experience, one of which should be related technical training" is equal to the geezer who's been covering generator or cavity work, shooting resin, or shipping radioactive material down our nation's highways for twenty-five years. I suspect even the bean counters are likely not that naive.
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This school of thought assumes that the youngster with "three years of experience, one of which should be related technical training" is equal to the geezer who's been covering generator or cavity work, shooting resin, or shipping radioactive material down our nation's highways for twenty-five years. I suspect even the bean counters are likely not that naive.
bean counters are not naive. they go by the rules and the rules govern their criteria for everything, whether it's nuclear techinicans or widgets. if da rules say "three years of experience, one of which should be related technical training", they will put in a call for people with three years of experience and not have anything in their criteria for techincal training. why? because the technical training clause is a "should" not a "shall" and therefour duzant have to be a criteria to be fulfilled.
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This school of thought assumes that the youngster with "three years of experience, one of which should be related technical training" is equal to the geezer who's been covering generator or cavity work, shooting resin, or shipping radioactive material down our nation's highways for twenty-five years. I suspect even the bean counters are likely not that naive.
Like SloGlo said "bean counters aren't niave. They do what is required, strictly by the book. Black and White. Beans = $$$'s. Their job is to make as many beans for the company as possible. Without breaking any rules or laws. If the contract says > 3 yrs, then 3 yrs + 1 day fills the bill. 25 years of bustin your but, and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee. Now if you're willing to work for the same wages as the newbies, then maybe your experience may get you the nod. But wait, did the contract say Associate degree prefered? Lots do, and I don't have one, do all of you? Also, sometimes both then and now, it's all a timing thing. Whoever rings the bell first wins the prize. Unions can controll a bit of this, if you negotiate this into your contract.
JJ ::)
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Okay, we (Sloglo, JJ and myself) agree that the bean counters are not naive. With that in mind, we may or may not agree that the powers that be recognize the vast amount of knowledge and experience which resides within most of the "high dollar" geezers. But your implication, JJ, seems to be that when all these newbies in the pipeline hit the field wages will plummet. If we entertain the notion that that will happen, what then? Folks have been leaving this business in droves for a couple decades. If that trend picks up and the industry is left with nothing but the "3 yrs. + 1 day" techs, will the radiation protection programs remain intact? And if not, what then?
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will the radiation protection programs remain intact?
define "intact". iffen ya mean 'unchanged', then eye wood say no. iffen yinz mean 'in place', then eye wood say yes. radiation protection programs are mandatory. however, they do adapt to the workplace environment. ask ennybuddy that did an outage in da 80s and one last year. radpro programs have changed, 'n will continue to do so.
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I had to self check, I said " stagnate or decline" not plummet. It will be a gradual change,as previously stated, it does take 3 yrs to grow a senior.As the colleges start cranking them out, there may become another glut of techs, and securing employment may become very competitive again. I remeber having to do a lot of phone sex in my early years to find a low paying job, somewhere I really didn't want to go. But hey as some people have said, i had bills to pay! History!!! I didn't like it then, and I damn sure won't like it now! The industry will evolve and survive, it has to.What you choose to do is up to you all. You can leave and find other employment. for some this is all they know how to do. Some like myself, have choosen this career, because we enjoy the challenges it offers. i can make a good living in the real world, but I like what I do. Sometimes it's a bit frustraiting, but it has its rewards.You all have a window of opportunity here, much better than when we made the last attempt. It'll eventually pass, and once it's gone, it may be quite a while before another opportunity presebts itself. Probably not in yours or my working lifetime. Choose wisely grasshopper!
JJ ;)
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Sloglo - a better way to express my thought would have been "will the integrity of the RP programs remain intact?" As in, will the money saved per technician be worth the probable increase in "shots-on-goal" regarding citable errors due to lack of experience?
JJ - Regarding wages, let's pretend I wrote "will become less in amount" instead of "will drop sharply or abruptly." ;)
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Sloglo - a better way to express my thought would have been "will the integrity of the RP programs remain intact?" As in, will the money saved per technician be worth the probable increase in "shots-on-goal" regarding citable errors due to lack of experience?
JJ - Regarding wages, let's pretend I wrote "will become less in amount" instead of "will drop sharply or abruptly." ;)
No Problem! Karma to you! To answer your question to SloGlo. The integrity will suffer. Remember when we went from man to man coverage, to zone coverage? It suffered then, but they took the chance. Then how about when we implemented "remote monitoring" more with less again. I don't think this hurt the integrity as much as the first, but it showed a trend, they will accept risk to save a buck! "Aceptable Risk" is a different department! Loss Prevention ie: Legal. Unions also try to contol the elimination of jobs.
JJ ;)
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Looks like all of those theories will be tested this season.
The Commercial Industry work force has increased by about 150 technicians, since October 2006. With the final site closure of Fernald and the reduction of manpower at several other DOE facilities, the Commercial Industry Shortage is finally over. This one is liable to play out like one of those old war movies at the local pub! Commercial vs. DOE techs, let the brawling begin!
That old standard of DOE time, equating to only six months of commercial experience is now out the window!
Pass the NEU test and your as good as gold, (study guide included)!
Reduced wages (due to lack of commercial experience), but not to worry, we're paying Per Diem!
JJ, maybe that time has come and gone!
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JJ you must be referring to the students enrolled through GE's cape fear community college program where they pay the students to complete their education and afterwards they work for a specified number of years to repay the investment GE made in them. typically i think its 2-3 years and they usually start them at about 11 or 12 bucks an hour. then they get a slight pay raise after completing their intial refuel floor training.
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JJ you must be referring to the students enrolled through GE's cape fear community college program where they pay the students to complete their education and afterwards they work for a specified number of years to repay the investment GE made in them. typically i think its 2-3 years and they usually start them at about 11 or 12 bucks an hour. then they get a slight pay raise after completing their intial refuel floor training.
You are correct on a few counts. It is Cape Fear (Good Community College) Third Class starting this fall I think. They pay you 11 or 12 to sit in class. More when you work. They send you to San Jose to learn refueling for a week or two, Good pay and good per diem also. Then it's off to the races, comming soon to a BWR near you. You do have to work for a specifiedperiod of time or you have to pay it all back. You're too far in the hole to quit, but it sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me! Rad Ghost, I guess that explains why we were able to staff this year. First time in a long time. I hope you're wrong about missing the window, but you're probably not too far off. That's why my sense of urgency. It'll be a long time comming again, if ever!
JJ :-\
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we had a few of the cape fear guys in our recent class out at the GE training center. most of them were more then willing to listen to those of us with prior refeul floor experience. i know they get a small raise after class and in a year or two they should be up around 20 i think.
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:) Ok lets see "How will implamenting a union hault/or slow down this addtion to the work forse" It seems to me that they can sign union cards too .... and its sounds like their no different from the DOE techs that come over to power house work .... escept their quals are accepted where DOE Core Cards are "meaningless" ..... 8)
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the union is not really the way of the future-its an option for power plant workers. If you treat HP tech as a craft-then union should be the option, if you treat it as a professional status- then education is the option, for it is a well known fact that education and professional employment go hand in hand. So, as you can see the camp is well divided-those with "field experience" tend to look at this as a craft, while those that get trained, educated, "signed off" go the professional route.
In some places technical staff are "quasi-professionals" in others its a craft.. so which side do you go with? craft or professional-
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hmmm maybe we need Triple A teams to go with the semi pro status... this is taking form ....ITS ALIVE!!
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AlphaDude,
My message was to treat your job as a profession. Meaning approach it from a professional standpoint. Be on time, do what your told,keep your mouth shut, don't complain about every little change, take pride in your product, continue to learn and improve, speak intelligently, represent yourself, family, and organization with a modicum of class, etc.
I dont think being professional has anything at all to do with your education level.
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sure it does ask a teen ager
while I do agree with most of what you say, there are ethics of the professional- keeping your mouth shut and doing what you are told may in fact be considered criminal activity in some cases and against professional ethics. If you mean avoid the rumor mill, gossip etc I agree. Doing what you are told if it is the wrong thing to do has its draw backs if the activity is illegal, hazardous to the environment and personnel etc... but you know all of this
As for professional, I took it to mean professional status as detailed for employment..
Behaving in a professional manner is always a good thing.
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the excellent craft workers are diligently professional in their approach to the work. lousy management types are dilettante in there approach two work. neither has much to do with education, but commitment.
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JJ
You hit on a VERY sore subject when you mentioned the powers that be would get rid of the older (higher priced techs) once the influx of new techs are up to speed (around 10 years).
However the problem is that most at most sites (yours included) there is no pay differential, 3.1 with 3 years is the same as 3.1 with 25 years.
The system has evolved to us serving as just warm bodies with little regard or recognition for what you know or do.
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so I guess education is limited to brick structures? What is being discussed now is really ethics- which has a lot to do with your education and what mama taught you. Ethics are learned behaviors associated with accepted standards- hmm learning and education wonder if there is a connection?
Slogo the same can be said about technical staff also..lousy technical types are dilettante in there approach two work. We all know of a few "Uber Techs" dont we?
Old HP this is a sore subject-( age -I guess me and you worked the volcano outage at Trojan?) anyway the standard calls for 3 years and you are qualified.. dont matter what you did or what plant you saved or how many gennies you jumped-(its good to have pride in your skills) but industry has "binned" HP techs nicely into a craft - there is no pay differential, 3.1 with 3 years is the same as 3.1 with 25 years.
Again, Union or Professional status.. what will it be.. if you work technician you will be held against the ANSI standard and somebody with 4 years experience will still get about the same or the same money as those with 25 years. My feelings are with a professional status you can move beyond technical and bring in mo money. If I wanted to stay technical-which has its advantages- I would want some protection with a union as I get older.
A demographics survey would be interesting- technicians age vs desire for union. Anybody that has worked management is excluded (the dark side never forgets!)
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Ok I'm going to stick my nose in here again. Both sides of the "professional" debate have merit. Keep in mind that a professional my have no education over a High School diploma but hold a position of responsibility and a heavily degreed person with no position is not normally considered a professional. The Plant Manager at Clinton Power Station at one time (80's) had only an associates degree and a VP at Fernald (90's) also had only an associates. When staffing the term professional does have the meaning of a person in a responsible position and who is normally degreed or possesses a certification. But then all of us are expected to perform our jobs in a professional manner no matter what our position. Union employees are not hired under the heading of "Professional" is a true statment in the HR world (or IR) they are considered skilled labor.
Returning to a neutral corner yet again.
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exactly one is a behavior (in a professional manner) the other is a classification for employment...
SEE Wild Hogs Mar 2. It was very very good to me! (highest paid pool boy in New Mexico)
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:) Ok lets see "How will implamenting a union hault/or slow down this addtion to the work forse" It seems to me that they can sign union cards too .... and its sounds like their no different from the DOE techs that come over to power house work .... escept their quals are accepted where DOE Core Cards are "meaningless" ..... 8)
Tina,
It can't controll anything until it exhists. when you get a contract, a lot of theese issues are points of bargining. pay grades, qualifications, training, and apprenticship programs can be implemented, if you choose. right now, anyone that the NLRB would deem eligible to be included in the bargining unit can sign a card. And as long as the door is open, the numbers will grow, perhaps a little to rapidly. Have to wait and see. As we grow older our perception of time changes radically, it'll be over before we know it!
JJ
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the union is not really the way of the future-its an option for power plant workers. If you treat HP tech as a craft-then union should be the option, if you treat it as a professional status- then education is the option, for it is a well known fact that education and professional employment go hand in hand. So, as you can see the camp is well divided-those with "field experience" tend to look at this as a craft, while those that get trained, educated, "signed off" go the professional route.
In some places technical staff are "quasi-professionals" in others its a craft.. so which side do you go with? craft or professional-
I understand this dilema. What's in a name or a lable? A lot of the issues here come from our age of political correctness. We aren't allowed to call them "Garbage Men" anymore. They are "Sanatation Engineers" Well what about "Rad Engineers"? Thats garbage too! Most are not true engineers, it's just a lable some self promoting individuals decided to adopt. Engineers are degreed individuals, that have the option of joining a proffesional organization, or being represented by a union. There are both in this worl, because it's their choice! Wait, I thought engineers ran the train? Just another name!
JJ
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JJ
You hit on a VERY sore subject when you mentioned the powers that be would get rid of the older (higher priced techs) once the influx of new techs are up to speed (around 10 years).
However the problem is that most at most sites (yours included) there is no pay differential, 3.1 with 3 years is the same as 3.1 with 25 years.
The system has evolved to us serving as just warm bodies with little regard or recognition for what you know or do.
All you old guys are always sore! Try some Ben Gay! You are correct about my site not having much of a pay structure, but not all are like this. I've been to a few that have entry level, > 1yr Jr, 18.1, 3yr 3.1, 5 yr.3.1, 7 yr 3.1, with a NRRPT bonus. It's not going to take 10 years, 3-5, and according to RadGhost, the clock has already started ticking, and I agree, things are already in the works How much thought do you think my site puts in to the selection process? If I had any input, you'ld have been here for 2 or 3 weeks already. You kept comming back, worked hard, didn't make waves, did as you were told. What did it get you? We don't even get you shirts anymore! Sorry, I wish you were here!
JJ
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Ok I'm going to stick my nose in here again. Both sides of the "professional" debate have merit. Keep in mind that a professional my have no education over a High School diploma but hold a position of responsibility and a heavily degreed person with no position is not normally considered a professional. The Plant Manager at Clinton Power Station at one time (80's) had only an associates degree and a VP at Fernald (90's) also had only an associates. When staffing the term professional does have the meaning of a person in a responsible position and who is normally degreed or possesses a certification. But then all of us are expected to perform our jobs in a professional manner no matter what our position. Union employees are not hired under the heading of "Professional" is a true statment in the HR world (or IR) they are considered skilled labor.
Returning to a neutral corner yet again.
Marlin,
Just cause you're a moderator doesn't mean you can't have an opinion! You're doing a good job! 8)
Jj
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Actually JJ, the information I shared was feed back from a couple of Human Resource types.
I'm trying to stay on topic:
Clarification on some Myths of the DOE technician world:
First of all, there are quite a number of DOE technicians with a background in the commercial industry. A lot of the old timers chose the DOE world for a stable environment, (family, economic and sleeping in their own bed each night). Working a 4/10, or 5/8 schedule, paid government holidays, paid sick/personal time, paid vacation time and cash back in your pocket for unused benefits, is very appealing. Combine that with a packaged salary of $50K to $65K a year, (without overtime), and your looking at the real picture.
Another hilarious misconception of the DOE world; is the number of technicians supposedly eliminated from commercial opportunities due to 10 CFR 26 standards. It’s not a matter of they couldn’t work the commercial facilities; it’s just that they didn’t want to! I think the number of DOE techs entering the commercial market will eliminate this myth completely!
How do they fit into the industry as far as training and qualifications; below the majority of house technicians and above the majority of the commercial technicians. Some may take that as an insult, but the DOE world requires an INITIAL academic and performance qualification, followed by some form of a continuous proficiency program. If a similar program exists for the commercial technician, (other than NEU test), in the last decade and excluding house technicians, I’m not aware of it! It’s extremely easy to convert 10 CFR 835 to 10 CFR 20, but there seems to be somewhat of a challenge doing the opposite! Obviously this season will have some speed bumps, due to the hands on experience level associated with the commercial industry, but that situation will rectify itself in a matter of days!
Like many have posted on this thread, they have a family to feed, bills to pay and make whatever independent opportunities they can. This situation may cause problems for some of the existing commercial technicians, who had their previously established circuit, (more techs, less opportunities). Then again it opens a window of resources to the commercial industry for trained manpower; that meet, or exceed the ANSI standards straight out of the gate! I figure it will take a couple of seasons to weed out the “who’s, who”!
Another interesting aspect to the increased work force volume, is the over abundance of technicians. You heard right, more technicians then jobs! I know for a fact JJ, that you have individuals showing up at your facility that are trained and qualified ANSI 3.1 technicians and they are performing services in other disciplines! I’ll bet nobody ever thought of this business plan, backup technicians already on site, badge and can change hardhats and pay grades in a moments notice! Especially if someone fails a test, or is disliked by management! Don’t be surprised when you find out their background and level of knowledge!
One of my main focuses, of any organization, was TRAINING! Diversified and complete in the entire science of Health Physics. Some thought that to be a worthless cause, don’t need it because I’m make a decent living right now! Looks like this season may start testing that theory, technicians trained and qualified in the DOE and Commercial world, vs. Commercial only!
Scary, don’t you think!
RG
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actually Rad Engineering comes out of DOE work and tends to be CHP or equivalent experience and legally you can only sell your services as an engineer if you are registered. The title you are talking about is a job postion and anybody that meets the job description for that title may fill it regardless of education. Companies are allowed to do that. So don't split hairs..
like you said an engineer is somebody that runs a train... (apples and oranges)
So JJ you are not getting OLD?? wow this is a first an imortal UBER TECH, not aging... well dude if you are past 40 you are in the bucket.. and if you are under 32 -they dont trust you..and dont have a lot of experience. The 32 to 42 age bracket is what utilities love- somewhat stable, no emotional crisis on a daily basis, experienced etc.
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Actually JJ, the information I shared was feed back from a couple of Human Resource types.
I'm trying to stay on topic:
Clarification on some Myths of the DOE technician world:
First of all, there are quite a number of DOE technicians with a background in the commercial industry. A lot of the old timers chose the DOE world for a stable environment, (family, economic and sleeping in their own bed each night). Working a 4/10, or 5/8 schedule, paid government holidays, paid sick/personal time, paid vacation time and cash back in your pocket for unused benefits, is very appealing. Combine that with a packaged salary of $50K to $65K a year, (without overtime), and your looking at the real picture.
Another hilarious misconception of the DOE world; is the number of technicians supposedly eliminated from commercial opportunities due to 10 CFR 26 standards. It’s not a matter of they couldn’t work the commercial facilities; it’s just that they didn’t want to! I think the number of DOE techs entering the commercial market will eliminate this myth completely!
Very True RG....... I currently work at a "national lab" and it is not a stretch to include most of us in the group of former commercial (both house and road) techs lured over to the dark side for many varying reasons. The FFD element does not apply here as we have a random program here and are almost all cleared with some variation of a DOE or DOD clearance (depending on which places we work). There is a significant concern in the national lab complex that sees a reduction in budget as a potential for less techs...... Therefore many of us "keep our ears to the ground" so to speak....
Very well put.
Mike
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alphadude,
i'm aging very rapidly! Right now I'm experiencing a union afilliated correction factor, I think it's somewhere around 2.5 to 1! I'm over 50, But don't look a day over 60! Guess what, they still don't trust me! but I've got their full attention right now. They are laying awake at nights after reading this (yes they read this), trying to figure out a way to either shut me up, or make me go away. I feel There is a very big need for some structure and security here, and I think the IBEW is the best alternative available.
JJ 8)
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yikes an old union dude- dangerous stuff- next he will be saying how he used to wash his face in PCB,brush his teeth with asbestos from the cable spreading room and paint his nipples with radium... give em hell JJ
fortunately you have union protection- me being in the mangement arena felt the age discrimination begin around 48 or so.. and it gets more every day, industry wants younger workers-why? they work for less money, they will swallow, they cant say "the last time this was tried it didnt work then" , they dont know about the directors preg girl friend, who latter became his second wife, and they tend to follow the alpha dog ... but we all know that story
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Let's not kid ourselves here, with all this debating.
Most outage workers are seasonal workers, who want alot of time off in the summer.
Most DOE workers are happy right where they are.
Is the IBEW ready to back a HP that works 4 or 5 months out of the year?
Is the IBEW ready to accept that HP telling them "No, I don't want to work Indian Point from June-August"?
Is the IBEW ready to accept that HP telling them that they don't get along with the RPM at Waterford?
Is the IBEW ready to accept that HP telling them that they are happy with doing routines 52 weeks a year at a lab, and doesn't want to travel anywhere?
Aren't there too many unknowns in the entire transformation to a union? Just wondering....
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Let's not kid ourselves here, with all this debating.
Most outage workers are seasonal workers, who want alot of time off in the summer.
Most DOE workers are happy right where they are.
Is the IBEW ready to back a HP that works 4 or 5 months out of the year?
Is the IBEW ready to accept that HP telling them "No, I don't want to work Indian Point from June-August"?
Is the IBEW ready to accept that HP telling them that they don't get along with the RPM at Waterford?
Is the IBEW ready to accept that HP telling them that they are happy with doing routines 52 weeks a year at a lab, and doesn't want to travel anywhere?
Aren't there too many unknowns in the entire transformation to a union? Just wondering....
The cure for the unknown is knowing. Knowing comes from learning. Learning comes from the asking of questions and listening to the answers. Since you asked the questions, here are some answers.
1. If work is more available only 4 or 5 months a year, they're perfectly happy to leave you alone until they need you.
2. They will never force you to work at a particular plant. When your name comes up to the top of the list, they call you. If you turn it down, you go to the bottom of the list. However, many unions have agreements with employers which allow them to "call by name". That means that you can get hired as a returnee to your favorite plant even though you just went to the bottom of the list for refusing IP. If the job was in June-August, there are a LOT of names on that list. Chances are that they will get the number of people they need.
3. If you don't want to go to Waterford, refer to answer 2, above.
4. If you are working, your name will not come up for another job. As long as you keep doing those routines, drawing a paycheck, and paying your assessments to the union, they are QUITE happy with you. Since you are happy, working, and paying, there is no need for the business agent to do anything more for you - such as getting you work. They are too busy getting work for the other members to waste time finding a job for somebody who already has one.
The IBEW isn't Bartlett, and doesn't share Bartlett's problems. Bartlett has a duty to the customers who pay them to supply techs. They are most successful when their contracts are staffed with people who are qualified and keep the customer happy. The IBEW has a duty to get work for their members. They are most successful when all their members work as much as they want to. Sometimes, these duties mesh very well together, and sometimes they are totally unrelated.
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Who uses your union dues for their own gain or to support people for office you may not want. I will never be union. My grandfather was union, alwaysvoted like union said and still lived in a crap house and died of black lung, Thank you very much union. I will take my chances on my own by working hard and working well with others. I do not need a union to tell me what to do andwho to vote for and waste mymoney on Mafia people. In Oak ridge TN the union is used to keep losers employed while the hard working newer workers get laid off. The companies finally got smart and laid off everybody and rehired other people at diffrent titles to get the job done!!! :)
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BeerCourt,
Most excellent post! Couldn't have said it any better myself. Dave, remember if we pull this IBEW organization off, and you choose to participate. You are the IBEW. You make the rules that apply to your bargining unit. I think what will be the goal is for all traveling contract technicians, and deconners. The DOE sites are already represented in part, and if not, they would try to keep them separate, because they have different issues and needs. They would be appropriate units all individually. Travelers have similar wants and needs. The whole concept is untried, so yes there are a lot of unknowns. Sign a card, vote yes, and draft a proposal of knowns, then ratify a contract.
thenukeman, sorry about your grandfather, but the whole reason unions came about was to try and stop things like that from happening. I think that maybe the company he was working for would be more of the responsible party. Unions can't get you on easy street, they will try to negotiate a better wage, but can only get what the market will bear. The union doesn't tell you what to do. You agree to do what the contact you vote on stipulates. Now mind you , you won't get it all your way, because we all vote on it, and whatever the majority wants, is what becomes the contract. Who are the Mafia guys you know? I haven't met any yet. None of the people I've been in contact with are even Italian.Turn off the Sapranos, and go do something educational. Go to the NLRB site and read a little about your rights as a worker. Try looking at the IBEW's site as well, it's got an english version if you're still on the Mafia thing. (just kidding) Knowledge is power and strength, Oh and I learned a long time ago, to never say never!
JJ ;)
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Who uses your union dues for their own gain or to support people for office you may not want.
iffen yer ina union, you do. iffen ya wanna. iffen ya dont, ya don't. this ain't the country where people are telling ya how to vote 'n standing there watching you any more. iffen ya don't like how yer dues monies are being sent into the political pipe line, vote out the office holder who are doing it. just like voting out the people you don't like in political office. this is kansas, not oz. unions are in a state of affairs now to do the membership bidding. why? because, iffen they don't, they won't have any membership. for every strike you read about any more, there are 10 stories about unions taking down management groups for not living up to legal issues and contract issues. now, if ya wanna kill the unions, that's fine too. just remember what your grandpa would say.
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It would be good to remember that what's good for the group is what gets done in a union, and if ya don't like what most of the group wants, ya might be less than happy. Also, where a union is part of a larger union or conglomerate, (read "International" here) it not uncommon for the international office to ignore or downplay the needs of a particular local or group of locals under the intenational umbrella. Haven't seen this sort of thing with the IBEW but it was common with the Steelworkers and OCAW.
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Mafia People, Way to Funny! ;D
YO....Fugedaboudit,
RG!
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For Sale: 1 horse. Well fed but extremely beaten.
JJ - As the spring season starts, what is your proposal to get cards distributed? It is probably time to get the cards out and by the end of the season, you will know where the idea stands. The IBEW or whoever needs to determine the class that would be represented. Commercial techs? DOE techs? some of each? two separate groups? Until it is decided who would be eligible for what, there is no way of knowing when a majority is reached. The longer the talk goes on with no action, you stand the chance of alienating those people on the fence. Kind of like the head-on commercial, it makes you sick after a while. Just a suggestion.
Keith
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I got this from a web site, How things work.
One of the most notorious Mafia schemes was the infiltration of labor unions. For several decades, it is believed that every major construction project in New York City was controlled by the Mafia. Mobsters paid off or threatened union leaders to get a piece of the action whenever a union group got a construction job, and they sometimes made their way into the ranks of leadership themselves. And once the Mafia had its grip firmly on a union, it could control an entire industry. Mafioso could get workers to slow or halt construction if contractors or developers didn't make the right payoffs, and they had access to huge union pension funds. At one point, the Mafia could have brought nearly all construction and shipping in the United States to a halt. But the last 20 years have seen the federal government crack down on Mafia-union connections to a great extent.
Maybe I am 20 years behind and the Mafia does not control as much , I doubt it.
like I said before, No union , forget About it. No chance that my pension or my vote controled by anyone.
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For Sale: 1 horse. Well fed but extremely beaten.
JJ - As the spring season starts, what is your proposal to get cards distributed? It is probably time to get the cards out and by the end of the season, you will know where the idea stands. The IBEW or whoever needs to determine the class that would be represented. Commercial techs? DOE techs? some of each? two separate groups? Until it is decided who would be eligible for what, there is no way of knowing when a majority is reached. The longer the talk goes on with no action, you stand the chance of alienating those people on the fence. Kind of like the head-on commercial, it makes you sick after a while. Just a suggestion.
Keith
Keith,
I know that now is the time to get this started, and have been trying to convey this to the powers that be. Once again you mention DOE, forget the DOE! They will have a different venue. Lots are already uninon. The DOE sites are permenant and will be handled differently, just like house techs at commercial sites. I'll let everyone know what's going on when I'm informed. I'm a little out of the loop omn this, since I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do know who to call to find out what's going on.
Thanks,
JJ
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I got this from a web site, How things work.
One of the most notorious Mafia schemes was the infiltration of labor unions. For several decades, it is believed that every major construction project in New York City was controlled by the Mafia. Mobsters paid off or threatened union leaders to get a piece of the action whenever a union group got a construction job, and they sometimes made their way into the ranks of leadership themselves. And once the Mafia had its grip firmly on a union, it could control an entire industry. Mafioso could get workers to slow or halt construction if contractors or developers didn't make the right payoffs, and they had access to huge union pension funds. At one point, the Mafia could have brought nearly all construction and shipping in the United States to a halt. But the last 20 years have seen the federal government crack down on Mafia-union connections to a great extent.
Maybe I am 20 years behind and the Mafia does not control as much , I doubt it.
like I said before, No union , forget About it. No chance that my pension or my vote controled by anyone.
Maybe the mafia controls the locals in NY, this would be because of a majority of the union voters belong to that brotherhood too. Hey I like pizza too, and can buy a lot more with extra toppings too with the extra money they get me.The IBEW international is in DC, and I didn't notice a lot of names ending with vowels. whatever you want to believe, no problem. If you're a road tech, I just have 1 question for you. What pension are you refering to?
JJ ;)
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I have 401 K's that have been matched by my employer. I also have a state employees pension. No one tells me how to invest or controls MY Money. The state controls my state pension. This is better than crumbs you may get if you retire and if you do not die first. If I croak my wife will have access to alot more money than I believe a union would give her. If a union goes bankrupt or misappropriates your money by giving it to politicians, Mafia or other people who think they are entitled to your money, or just ripping it off you have 0. Also if people wise up and vote out the union then what? Unionforgetaboutit. invest your own money if you are a roadie. Just my opinion. Why worry about having yourpension ripped off. I also see that the poll is showing against union. So maybe the roadies have the message already.
I hope the Mafia does not sendout anybody to break Renhacks knees for my posts. He is a good guy!!! :)
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I have 401 K's that have been matched by my employer. I also have a state employees pension. No one tells me how to invest or controls MY Money. The state controls my state pension. This is better than crumbs you may get if you retire and if you do not die first. If I croak my wife will have access to alot more money than I believe a union would give her. If a union goes bankrupt or misappropriates your money by giving it to politicians, Mafia or other people who think they are entitled to your money, or just ripping it off you have 0. Also if people wise up and vote out the union then what? Unionforgetaboutit. invest your own money if you are a roadie. Just my opinion. Why worry about having yourpension ripped off. I also see that the poll is showing against union. So maybe the roadies have the message already.
I hope the Mafia does not sendout anybody to break Renhacks knees for my posts. He is a good guy!!! :)
OK, you said pension, not 401K. There is a difference. Now back 8 yrs ago, when I was a rent a tech, I had a 401K too. Bartlett had a good 401K through Fidelity, but as for company match, they only contributed $100 per year. Now back then Bartlett was the only one to offere a 401K at all. Now maybe there are more with a better match, some people will post and tell me what is currently offered. Now your pension from the state, that was real nice now wasn't it? I have a pension from a previous life, but wish I had one from the current one. You don't even have to worry about someone missapropriating or stealing the funds, because there aint any! There are a lot of new federal laws to prevent a lot of this. pension money is your money. if you withdraw from the union, whatever the reason, you will get the money you have comming to rollover into another apprpriate retirement fund. One thing you are correct on is the votes show that the few that voted, are against a union. Geuss what? Maybe some people other than management are watching this thread too. They may decide to save both their time and money. (yes they invest heavily in a campaign) if the poll shows way below 50%. Remember I said they like 65% or better. If you want a chance to vote, I'd reccomend heavily that you vote yes here. if you aren't a member, sign up and do this one thing to help yourself to a better life. This may be the last opportunity for representation. BTW no one tells me how to invest my money either. Except now Progress has told me that it would be better to put my money in a 401K instead of paying union dues. I'll pay the dues, thank you! My mother said I never listened very well. I guess mom is always right!
JJ :P
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I keep hearing Banjo's? :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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For the record, the poll shows 75 total votes. That is less than 10% of the commercial road techs. You can't even make a guess which way it would go based on the few votes. That leaves about 800 that haven't voiced an opinion.
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For the record, the poll shows 75 total votes. That is less than 10% of the commercial road techs. You can't even make a guess which way it would go based on the few votes. That leaves about 800 that haven't voiced an opinion.
Keith,
My point exactly. If you look at the stats on this thread, there are a whole lot of views and only a few votes. I realize that the entire industry doesn't come here, but the one that do need to speak up.
Thanks,
JJ ;)
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For the record, the poll shows 75 total votes. That is less than 10% of the commercial road techs. You can't even make a guess which way it would go based on the few votes. That leaves about 800 that haven't voiced an opinion.
We probably should not assume that all voters are road techs, either... :o
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I have 401 K's that have been matched by my employer. I also have a state employees pension. No one tells me how to invest or controls MY Money. The state controls my state pension. This is better than crumbs you may get if you retire and if you do not die first.
state pension? hmmmm, was that a union state job ya had?
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We probably should not assume that all voters are road techs, either... :o
You are probably correct in that assumption, and some are probably supervision also.
JJ ::)
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state pension? hmmmm, was that a union state job ya had?
SloGlo,
Funny you should mention that. My mother was a State Employee, and had a real good pension. Sheis living on it now. She was union BTW. Oh poor dad didn't have one, so mom and her union have to keep him!
JJ ;)
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State Job not union, but still the same communistic agenda that unions have. Did not give merit raises because someone may sue. Also those with more time were protected. Had one manager tell us that all he expected was the minimum. He told about 50 of us that in a meeting. Unions encourage mediocrity, laziness, I do not care attitude, Even worse, It does not matter if you a a good worker if you were hired last you will be fired first attitude. Then people see this and just give up. Iseen this with my own eyes. They had one union operator complain about just filling out tags, She did not move equipment or do the work like the others. She went to the respirator shack to hand out respirators while others worked hard. This was also known as the sleep shack where all the loser scum union workers went who could not or would not work. Which made the others even madder. Eventually union was pushed off site. Why would anyone want a union is beyond me.
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I've read about all the misinformed, uninformed, insipid, vacuous bulls**t that I can stand on this topic.
Before I begin, I feel it necessary to state that I am not currently an active member of any union. I work with union craftpersons all the time, and I have spent most of my life since leaving the Navy in non-union jobs.
The supposed correlation between union membership and laziness and incompetence is - as politely as I can put it - the biggest load of crap ever hauled over land or sea.
If you have EVER worked as a contract HP tech for Bartlett or Numanco (union or non-union) you have undoubtedly worked with very many of the same people as I have. If you were not so heavily medicated that you couldn't recognize your own mother, you HAD to have noticed the several strata of employees among the HP/decon staff at those jobs.
There are the so-called "heavy-hitters" - a title earned by any tech who shows up for all his or her scheduled days of work, does his or her share of the work, does not need to be held by the hand to do a survey or cover a job, leaves the work area as good or better than he or she found it, relieves on time or early, stays until relieved ... etc.
There are the "junior seniors" who have been around long enough to be ANSI 3.1, but have refused to learn anything not necessary to pass the NEU exam or to remember it any longer than the day of the exam. They can't calculate an air sample, or figure out how long it will take a worker to get a dose alarm in a high rad area, but you can't tell them anything because they figure that they have nothing to learn.
There are the "slugs" who may be as technically proficient as the heavy hitter, or as clueless as the junior-senior, but it doesn't matter because they are rarely around to prove it. They relieve late, leave early, call in sick whem they aren't sick, claim some kind of physical ailment that prevents them from climbing ladders, wearing respirators, wearing plastics, lifting anything heavier than an RO-2, being in containment for more than 6 hours out of any 12 hour shift, ... etc.
If it is unions who protect the lazy and incompetent, then we've all been union members all this time without knowing it.
The craftpersons with whom I have been working for the past 3 years, are all union members. They come to work on time, work until dismissed by their foremen, take only authorized breaks and meals, and hit it as hard as it takes during work hours. They get tired and filthy and don't complain.
The superintendents who hire them know who the useless ones are and let them go first. They are able to hire by name in a lot of cases to get the better workers - leaving the slugs on the bench.
I have seen people come over from working for another contractor to working for us on the same site. They go from foot-draggers to hard workers within the space of a day. The difference is in the way their employers treat them - period.
When you give your employees the respect they deserve, treat them as you would want to be treated, and pay them a fair wage, you'll get the best out of them. If you expect the minimum, pay the minimum, and treat people like children, you will get no better than you deserve.
If you don't want to join a union - don't join a union. That is your right as an American. But all this talk about the Mafia, and protecting the jobs of the lazy and incompetent being your reasons to dislike unions is all coming straight out of your a$$. Don't talk about things you don't know about, and you won't have this problem.
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I've read about all the misinformed, uninformed, insipid, vacuous bullshit that I can stand on this topic.
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The supposed correlation between union membership and laziness and incompetence is - as politely as I can put it - the biggest load of crap ever hauled over land or sea.
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If you don't want to join a union - don't join a union. That is your right as an American. But all this talk about the Mafia, and protecting the jobs of the lazy and incompetent being your reasons to dislike unions is all coming straight out of your a$$. Don't talk about things you don't know about, and you won't have this problem.
Absolutely awsome rant - 1000% right
Karma to ya
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I've read about all the misinformed, uninformed, insipid, vacuous bullshit that I can stand on this topic.
Before I begin, I feel it necessary to state that I am not currently an active member of any union. I work with union craftpersons all the time, and I have spent most of my life since leaving the Navy in non-union jobs.
The supposed correlation between union membership and laziness and incompetence is - as politely as I can put it - the biggest load of crap ever hauled over land or sea.
If you have EVER worked as a contract HP tech for Bartlett or Numanco (union or non-union) you have undoubtedly worked with very many of the same people as I have. If you were not so heavily medicated that you couldn't recognize your own mother, you HAD to have noticed the several strata of employees among the HP/decon staff at those jobs.
There are the so-called "heavy-hitters" - a title earned by any tech who shows up for all his or her scheduled days of work, does his or her share of the work, does not need to be held by the hand to do a survey or cover a job, leaves the work area as good or better than he or she found it, relieves on time or early, stays until relieved ... etc.
There are the "junior seniors" who have been around long enough to be ANSI 3.1, but have refused to learn anything not necessary to pass the NEU exam or to remember it any longer than the day of the exam. They can't calculate an air sample, or figure out how long it will take a worker to get a dose alarm in a high rad area, but you can't tell them anything because they figure that they have nothing to learn.
There are the "slugs" who may be as technically proficient as the heavy hitter, or as clueless as the junior-senior, but it doesn't matter because they are rarely around to prove it. They relieve late, leave early, call in sick whem they aren't sick, claim some kind of physical ailment that prevents them from climbing ladders, wearing respirators, wearing plastics, lifting anything heavier than an RO-2, being in containment for more than 6 hours out of any 12 hour shift, ... etc.
If it is unions who protect the lazy and incompetent, then we've all been union members all this time without knowing it.
The craftpersons with whom I have been working for the past 3 years, are all union members. They come to work on time, work until dismissed by their foremen, take only authorized breaks and meals, and hit it as hard as it takes during work hours. They get tired and filthy and don't complain.
The superintendents who hire them know who the useless ones are and let them go first. They are able to hire by name in a lot of cases to get the better workers - leaving the slugs on the bench.
I have seen people come over from working for another contractor to working for us on the same site. They go from foot-draggers to hard workers within the space of a day. The difference is in the way their employers treat them - period.
When you give your employees the respect they deserve, treat them as you would want to be treated, and pay them a fair wage, you'll get the best out of them. If you expect the minimum, pay the minimum, and treat people like children, you will get no better than you deserve.
If you don't want to join a union - don't join a union. That is your right as an American. But all this talk about the Mafia, and protecting the jobs of the lazy and incompetent being your reasons to dislike unions is all coming straight out of your a$$. Don't talk about things you don't know about, and you won't have this problem.
Dennis Miller would be proud :) .
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No, actually, I was gonna go pro-union on this thing, until beer court started spewing all this venom and hate...... ;)
Beer, you must have too much time on your hands to read all these posts and let them penetrate your nervous system, like they obviously have.
When the uninformed have questions to ask and statements to make, telling them that their fears are coming straight out of their ass is a wonderful intimidation tactic, but probably won't warm them up to the new ideas that JJordan is trying to share with everyone.
Intimidation tactics are a staple of unions also, whether you want to hear it or not. Example: Outage at Com-Exelon in Illinois.
Take a break, Brother. Its not worth your time to try and do it that way. I lost all my karma when i tried to do that .....;)
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No, actually, I was gonna go pro-union on this thing, until beer court started spewing all this venom and hate...... ;)
Beer, you must have too much time on your hands to read all these posts and let them penetrate your nervous system, like they obviously have.
When the uninformed have questions to ask and statements to make, telling them that their fears are coming straight out of their ass is a wonderful intimidation tactic, but probably won't warm them up to the new ideas that JJordan is trying to share with everyone.
Intimidation tactics are a staple of unions also, whether you want to hear it or not. Example: Outage at Com-Exelon in Illinois.
Take a break, Brother. Its not worth your time to try and do it that way. I lost all my karma when i tried to do that .....;)
So far BeerCourt has been fairly balanced. His diatribe seems to be aimed at those who are not. His posts on this topic have restricted to his experiences and other valid information. Carte Blanche statements that unions are this and that in "black and white" terms seem more venomous and hateful than his rant on his perception of the current state of technicians. I don't always agree with him but I do respect his opinions especially when thay are as entertaining as this one.
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don't hate the game .. hate the players 8)
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Marlin, did you say he was fairly balanced or "fair and balanced"?
There is a difference.......;)
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One being a Circus performer and the other a Fox News commentator? 8)
Fair and Balanced for this topic would be to allow periodic venting on both sides of the issue. This topic has stayed on topic and civil, for the most part, keeping it out of PolySci and it is still one of the fastest growing threads in the Forum.
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Poy sci = the study of hawaiian food?
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Poy sci = the study of hawaiian food?
With all of our unemployed comics, you figure they need a union? (Thanx its fixed)
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One being a Circus performer and the other a Fox News commentator? 8)
Fair and Balanced for this topic would be to allow periodic venting on both sides of the issue. This topic has stayed on topic and civil, for the most part, keeping it out of PoySci and it is still one of the fastest growing threads in the Forum.
This is a good thread, and everyone should have an opinion and be allowed to express it.For or against, it shouldn't matter! BeerCourt didn't attack anyone personally, like some are doing to him. I've gotten it too, but hey load up, I'll take all you've got. Beer is correct, you can't equivicate lazy with union. It's not right, and it's not fair.The IBEW doesn't promote lazy. On the contrary.They believe in a honest days work for an honest days pay.The lazy people are there, they're everywhere, union, and non union.They learn the system, and hide behind the protection that the union provides for everyone. The problem goes right back to lazy again.Some, not all of supervision are lazy! They acuse the union of protecting the slugs, instead of doing the work required to get rid of them. Because it's easier! Lets take it a little bit further. The reporters that cover stories on the union put out a good bit of erroneus information, because it's easier than doing research and digging to find the real story or culprit. Call it like ya see it! I see it the same way. There are lazy people all over, union and non union period. I worked as a union construction worker, and busted my tail. They told me "if you want big pay, you've gotta do big work" and by god we did! If they worked the HP's that hard, not many would make it to coffee break. I remember back a few years when things were bad where I came from, and a lot of my union brothers were out of unemployment. Some knew I had friends with Bartlett. I called for them and got them decon jobs at Peach Bottom. I got a call from the office shortly thereafter. They said where did you get these guys? I thought Oh boy. They said do you know any more? These are the hardest working, best deconners they ever saw. All of them were union, so don't even think about lableing union with lazy. It doesn't even apply.
JJ :P
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This topic has stayed on topic and civil, for the most part, keeping it out of PolySci and it is still one of the fastest growing threads in the Forum.
amen brudder marlin, 'n a big tipa da brim to alla posters who have kept it here in and out of poly sci. mae da fourse be with yinz. now, iffen we cood here phrum suma da resta da onlines, lurkers, 'n posters extrodinaire...... 8)
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Look at my last post. I did not say all union workers were lazy, I said some worked hard. But in the end it did not matter last hired first fired. I covered one of the hardest working group. They even called themselves the A team. They got a DOE national award. However, the whiners and crybabies most with alot more time would not work with them because they did work. What made it even worse is when they got an award the sleep shack people got the same plaques as the ones who worked. Supervisors would not do there jobs because the union would sue if they lifted a finger against someone. One person I remember hollering I do what I want when I want. and he did. One of my A team people got layed off because he was low man. He got hired back as a supervisor as a reward. The union finally got shutout and my buddy is still; there. The slackers are gone and I do not care where they are. My experience with unions are they are scum. They lend themselves to enablers, people who think they are entitled to your dues and spend it on politicians they want. OK this is my last post on this I have vented enough!!!! :) Got to watch Hannity and Combs. Fair and balanced. LOL :)
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Look at my last post. I did not say all union workers were lazy, I said some worked hard. But in the end it did not matter last hired first fired. I covered one of the hardest working group. They even called themselves the A team. They got a DOE national award. However, the whiners and crybabies most with alot more time would not work with them because they did work. What made it even worse is when they got an award the sleep shack people got the same plaques as the ones who worked. Supervisors would not do there jobs because the union would sue if they lifted a finger against someone. One person I remember hollering I do what I want when I want. and he did. One of my A team people got layed off because he was low man. He got hired back as a supervisor as a reward. The union finally got shutout and my buddy is still; there. The slackers are gone and I do not care where they are. My experience with unions are they are scum. They lend themselves to enablers, people who think they are entitled to your dues and spend it on politicians they want. OK this is my last post on this I have vented enough!!!! :) Got to watch Hannity and Combs. Fair and balanced. LOL :)
OK Beercourt! My turn to holler BS! I've been in unions for about half of my adult life. When I was a supervisor, if you weren't performing, you were the very first to go! In fact You may have been the only one to go! I never fired anyone,I always laid them off, and the union never uttered a word in their deffense. If they deserved it they got it, end of report! Layoffs were always performance based. Now some unions maybe do go by senority. Sounds like you like that, because you always revert back to it. But your contract doesn;t exist yet. Are you all so feeble to only be able to draft a lousy one? Sounds like it. Why, because it's easier! (See my previous post) It's easiser to whine about how bad it is instead of trying to change things for the better. You've all had it pretty easy for a while. Now things are going to tighten up and get a little harder. I hope you all are a smart and ambitous as you perceive yourselves to be. Because without a union, you're on your own. Supervision all have plenty of help, and if it aint enough there is another snakey lawyer just one phone call away!
JJ :(
PS It is fair and balanced, you can LOL, but they let both side post! BTW I read all of your posts one qoute was "Unions encourage mediocrity, laziness, I do not care attitude, Even worse, It does not matter if you a a good worker if you were hired last you will be fired first attitude" Fired and laid off are 2 different things! Another quote that particulary bothered me was "but still the same communistic agenda that unions have" Unions are democratic, we've always voted on every decision the union ever made. either by a show of hands, or secret ballot, depending on the sensitivity of the issue. ::)
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Another quote that particulary bothered me was "but still the same communistic agenda that unions have" Unions are democratic, we've always voted on every decision the union ever made. either by a show of hands, or secret ballot, depending on the sensitivity of the issue. ::)
There have been a lot of things said that I have chosen not to chime in on. I have said pretty much what I have to say about this over flogged subject. HOWEVER...
Unions are very directly related to Communism as a philosophy. The opposite of Communisim is NOT Democracy. The opposite of Communism is Capitalism. Ask any communisitic government if they are democratic and they will tell you they most certainly are... and they are right. Is it good democracy? So far the answer to that IMHO is no. But unions at their very core are anti-capitalistic. True capitalism was what we had when the robber barons were running businesses that were concerned solely with turning a profit. That is what capitalism in its pure form is. The unions came along and tempered capitalism to give it a more humane bent. So, to argue that unions are not communistic is incorrect, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. There are good and bad things about communism just like there are good and bad things about capitalism (as we learned around the turn of the last century.) In very broad terms, capitalism tends to produce people that are more willing to work hard to gain what they want and communism tend to produce people that do only what they need to do to achieve the goal. No one gets more yet the talented ones are expected to produce more. "To each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities." That only works when people all think the same way and all have the same commitment to the common goal (or the common good.) Eventually the people with higher abilities tend to get angry when they get no more for their extra effort.
One thing capitalism and communism have in common -- without controls in place to prevent abuse when the wrong people are in control things get very ugly very fast.
Again, I am not anti-union. I personally think that a union for HP techs would cost us more than it would gain us, but that is just one man's opinion. For some people I am sure it would work well. It just depends on how the cost/benefit analysis turns out for each individual, and how much individuality they are willing to sacrifice to get what they want. I do not want to give up any of the flexibility I have and I am not in the least bit afraid of being replaced by someone new. The best thing to do to avoid being replaced is to convince the powers that be that you are worth more than the people they want to replace you with. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.
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On a different subject that has been touched on a bit here, the number of votes is indeed very low considering the amount of attention this has gotten (although you have to count the number of repeat posts by certain individuals when considering the high level of activity.) The main reason I have not voted is that the answer is a resounding "I can't answer that given the information."
Would I sign a card? The answer has to be yes because I did that once. Would I do it again? I do not think so, for several reasons. First and foremost, I will not give my support to the same organization that dropped us like a hot potato when we tried this before without some very certain reassurances that the union is not in a position to give. The word debacle keeps coming to mind for some reason. I do not think anyone is out to get us (some of our money, perhaps) nor do I doubt anyone's good intentions, but 'Fooled me once...'
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are we confusing socialism with communism? communism is the poly sci of communial living- every thing belongs to the collective, unions do not fit into communism.
socialism is the poly sci of social interaction and management under a directive- which organized labor fits into
The USSR was neither communist nor socialist- it was abberant.
Marx and Engles are would not be happy
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To be fair and balanced, we have to include some statistics:
PERCENTAGE OF UNIONIZED EMPLOYEES IN THE U.S. IN 2005
TOP TEN
New York 26.1 %
Alaska 22.8%
New Jersey 20.5 %
Michigan 20.5 %
Washington 19.1 %
Illinois 16.9%
California 16.5%
Wisconsin 16.1 %
Ohio 16 %
Rhode Island 15.9 %
Connecticut 15.9%
BOTTOM TEN
South Carolina 2.3 %
North Carolina 2.9 %
Arkansas 4.8 %
Virginia 4.8 %
Utah 4.9 %
Idaho 5.2 %
Florida 5.4 %
Tennessee 5.4 %
South Dakota 5.9 %
Arizona 6.1 %
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:) Well I was one of the 16.9% in Illinois in 2005 and my vote is still NO 8)
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To be fair and balanced, we have to include some statistics:
PERCENTAGE OF UNIONIZED EMPLOYEES IN THE U.S. IN 2005
BOTTOM TEN
South Carolina 2.3 %
Maybe that's where I get it from ... Go SC!!
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yep go SC... love those low paying jobs and the social class ... been there from there...
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Wonder why all the new plants are being proposed in the South? ;)
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its got to be the step and fetch it attitude .....
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Wonder why all the new plants are being proposed in the South? ;)
Good ole' Right to Work States!! Come on down boys and girls!
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yep go SC... love those low paying jobs and the social class ... been there from there...
Oh a-dude! Think about it ..... working side-by-side ... you a card carrier, .... me not, ...you get paid $XX.XX/hr (minus your dues), me gettin $XX.XX/hr (no dues) ....... week-ends we can go canoeing on the Chattooga, (I know a kid, ain't much for conversation but plays a mean banjo!)
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are we confusing socialism with communism?
Yes, it is socailism and not communism, but I did not want to get into a discussion of the difference. I figured that was not really the issue here. After I posted, I almost went back and changed it but it was late and I got lazy and the point had been made.
As for the USSR, it did actually start out to be socialist, but like any dictatorship it warped into something that did not fit any philosophy but the leader's.
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Oh a-dude! Think about it ..... working side-by-side ... you a card carrier, .... me not, ...you get paid $XX.XX/hr (minus your dues), me gettin $XX.XX/hr (no dues) ....... week-ends we can go canoeing on the Chattooga, (I know a kid, ain't much for conversation but plays a mean banjo!)
Now that was funny!
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well i tried to bring in the union into Oconee,(OCAW) got me the best job I ever had- setting up Jocassee and Bad Creek-
The reason we were wanting union was that pay raises were based on what the supervisor thought of you and what church you attended-(I kid you not) saving on the budget was accomplished from your lack of pay raise only to be given back to managers as as incentive- (wonder why 30 techs quit in one month at Oconee in 1977?) harsh non-union southern white man politics- I think it was this time period I knew I wanted to be in management. If I had to swallow at least there was some honey with it-
Oh Walt I didnt know you were a "fellow traveler!" nice cover.... (benefits from the union wage scale but contributes nothing to his fellow workers) Its all about me!
you got a purty mouth Walt.... come on up to Burls
didnt know I was from Oconee did ya!
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:) Humm lets see.... In 2004 I had had been a Union employee for 8.5 years ( at a Nuclear Power Facility) in Illinois... I was about to get my annual expected pay raise when I had to adhere in the "majority rule" of my Union Brothern and give my Union a pay raise instead of myself... I worked all year and was forced to lose my raise for that year and the up coming three years in the re-up of our union contract ... not only did I lose that raise but it took an additional $700.00 per year from my annual income with no additional overtime to compensate for the loss... at that point and due to that point I became a Traveling Tech...hince I WORK FOR ME ... 12 months later my annual income went up approx 1/2 in yearly gains ... and my 2006 yearly income has averaged out to a 1/3 in yearly gain of income to myself in compairson to 2004... from which I had a small stent of unemployment which ran approx 4 months of the year ( it was the first time in my life to draw on unemployment) and while drawing unemployment I made more income per pay then in the year of 2004 the year of "the Union Worker" (thank you Mass).... I have changed my lifestly mindset since 2004 the year of the union worker I have become an employee for myself... ( I work for me) I still have some hands in my pie like Taxes, Insurance, and debts of places I pick and determine to give my money to at my own discretion ... but I dont have a majority telling me I lost my raise this year... I travel and see the United States more, I vacation at places like Florida, Colorado, New Orleans, and New York for a lot less because I have made lifetime friendships with fellow employees that have worked with me on differnt projects and sites... I have my children come and stay with my grandkids for small family vacations when I work so they can experience differant states and our christmases have improved due to the added income from my choice of work... as I like to say I work for me not for "them" (THEM being the ones who try to put their hands in my pie).... I also have the benny of diving "my hobby of choice" in places such as Bahammas/Mexico and such when Im in between jobs my free time is mine... when called to work Im paid to get there, and I do my job and Im paid for it accordingly, and I like it that way... So tell me again how the Union is suppose to be a benefit to me ::)
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Its not- but I think your complaint was unequal pay for the same job- if you are willing to live with that sounds like you are doin ok... and without representation you really have no choice on the pay-things will be unequal- I know the company owner so I get more, you dont so you get less, sounds OK to me!
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Is this a rent a tech union debate or how great thou are debate? Did all these good fortunes you tell us all have to do because you didnt work union or is it you decided to change your habits. So one is to take it that you dont work for any company. Cause if you work for a company you are not independent and that means there is another handout. As a rent a tech one doesnt always have the option of working wherever they want to and how long they want to, but one does always have the option of where one doesnt want to work or when one can leave. Even the regional managers (who I work for) of the comapany (who sometime still swing a meter) dont always have the option of where and when they want to work. This was for the person who had almost 30 "I's" in their post.
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me likey
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:) As for myself I have seen first hand no Benefit to being a Union Employee... when neg a pay raise the company told the union what it was willing to give... the union sent it to us the employees and we either accepted it or not but in the end we got what they (the company said they were willing to give us) wage vs insurance premium expense.. as for training we got the training the company said we had to have to meet the NRC regs... no more no less. if we were hired by the company we would have gotten the same training no diff... so the union didnt affect out training the NRC did... hours of work the NRC called the shots not us, not the Union, and not the company...the NRC capt the OT through regs.... union benefits there none... the company I worked for choose our insurance carrier, union benefit there none.... I paid union dues for WHAT ??? they didnt keep my job for me I did, I left on my own terms, I stayed on my own terms, but had to pay the union just to be able to work benefit for me none... my promotions and my work ethic never came into play with the union... I got what everyone else did for our money from the union... thank you but no thank you... Currently I get the hourly wage the company hired me for if I accept it then thats what I get ... not less a union due ... my money is mine after I do the job I was hired to do ... I get my pay on time my taxes get paid my insurance company is happy and life is good ... the Union wants my money for what ... so I dont have it ... I dont need their product so I dont want to buy ... 8) there product is of no benefit to me at this time ;) now I keep waiting to see why it ever would be but havent as of as yet 8)
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Tina didnt you get your training under a union program? Were you not trained in accord with union seniority rules? Wasnt your pay a direct result of union agreements? Wasnt your medical for that time period a result of union benefits? or are we missing something here? were you not treated on a fair basis within the union contract (no male or female preference) ? were others in your pay grade making more and doing less? didnt respect for a safety culture come from a union environment? did you enter the union as tech skilled or unskilled? If skilled were your skills not enhanced, unskilled needless to say....
sounds like the union had a lot to do with your life as far as the skills you demonstrate as a tech.
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I'msorry alphadude. Safety Culture and Union Environment are two completely opposite sides of the Hemisphere. Especially in Illinois. We have a very good Safety Culture, and.....are non union. You need to stop while you are ahead. Its' storyline like yours that shows just the reason there is no support on this thread. I for one am against, but stand with those who are looking for SERIOUS reasons why, and how to go about organizing. Your posts don't work. I call it .....propaganda?
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but the beauty is im non union so its not propaganda if I dont belong to the party.. Im management
how did you come to the conclusion that unions are not part of the safety culture? Unions partner with safety and are contractually bound to do so. (safety culture is beyond "protect the core" mentality)
were you ever in the union azkidd? have you ever been on either sided of the contract negotiation or had any negotiation training?
the orginal statement I made was that this is a dead issue with RATs and should not go much further, I made this statement about 2 years ago on this thread and it really hasnt gone much farther.. however, when general broad statements are made.. all unions are bad...etc.. its time to get in there and make comments about close minded individuals that try to sway others with hollow experience.. I am not pro nor against unions- all I would like to see is that:
people look at the facts and their conditions and the situation in analytical terms and decide ( be pro active)
accept that they agreed to the pay and the conditions and accept responsiblity (stop sniveling)
those that wish to organize have the rights to do so (control your future)
management has the right to manage
and broad general statements like safety and unions are opposite or all unions are bad be stopped
Oh yea-there is not much support with RATs and the unions so its really a dead issue.
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Here is a simple difference between union and companies on pay. Unions take out after you get paid. Companies take out before you get paid. Do you know the uproar it would cause if we got paid what our companies billed the power units and then we had to pay our companies their share?(500 to 700 dollars a week) The companies get roughly 8 to 10 dollars (I know its some kind of ratio, let me know if Im wrong) an hour for "their" or "our" services I get that part confused for some reason. So either way "we can pay them now or pay them later"
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Tina didnt you get your training under a union program? Were you not trained in accord with union seniority rules? Wasnt your pay a direct result of union agreements? Wasnt your medical for that time period a result of union benefits? or are we missing something here? were you not treated on a fair basis within the union contract (no male or female preference) ? were others in your pay grade making more and doing less? didnt respect for a safety culture come from a union environment? did you enter the union as tech skilled or unskilled? If skilled were your skills not enhanced, unskilled needless to say....
sounds like the union had a lot to do with your life as far as the skills you demonstrate as a tech.
My point is I give the credit to the NRC not the union and not the hiring company.... the NRC set the standards and requirment that each an every employee has to meet and its up to the hiring company to see to it that the people filling the positions are at that standard .... so then if the hiring company gives the training to meet the standards where dose the union fit in... as far as education I went to school and worked nights at the power plant no help from the union and no help from the company either but none was expected... I choose my own route... and still kept up with my job proforrmance .... the senority rules training was just like the basic consept of "The Senority Rules" which ment I spent my first four years on the job on night shift till enough turnover occured to let me go to days shift... we had young single guys and gals with no family life that had more senority working day shift and I was a working mom missing my kids high school years because I had less senority and had to work nights but you know what no biggy its called life .... when life gives you lemons make margeritas...by the time I got to days I had more education and was able to become a traveling tech with some smarts... and those first four years was a fear of down sizing the work force so the less senoir employees could be laid off at any time....now as for fairness Ive worked with males that were hired for their brute strength not their HP proformance ... and females that were let go not for their HP proframance either... and I found its pretty much the same everywhere... I get to a project or a site and no one knows my capabilities until they work along side of me then they find out what I am personally capable of ... you know the types reliable, dependable, hard working .... and I do my job and go on ... nothing unfair about it .... If you work quess what a company will let you ... mind boggling concept huh.... as for pay and medical being a union benny nope cant say it was the hiring company offered Blue Cross no union input for that as for pay the Power company told the union its offer and guess what we got... what the company offered although it did come down to the quote" Best and Final Offer" yea believe thats how it was put to us...I paid dues for that and still lost money ... the NRC put standards inplace not the union, not the company, and not the employees.... 8)
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Tina I agree Unions would not do a lot for you.
but back to the original- dont expect equal pay in a non union environment- others will get more than you because of advantage or less than you because of disadvantage for the same work
management has the right to manage and selection of pay is part of the deal.. we are not contractually bound to pay equal pay unless in a union agreement generally- so if there is an advantage to offering ... yadda yadda
Acutally, INPO ACAD did more for training than anybody- (yea for INPO)
I hear the voices...
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:) Ok so then Im suppose to one join a union = pay union dues and then the pay will be straight across the board at the rate of the lowest pay scale in use at the time ...
It seems to me the Ill not only lose my money due to union dues but Ill also have to fall down to the lowest pay scale of the so called less fortunant ... ???
8)
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but the beauty is im non union so its not propaganda if I dont belong to the party.. Im management
how did you come to the conclusion that unions are not part of the safety culture? Unions partner with safety and are contractually bound to do so. (safety culture is beyond "protect the core" mentality)
Sorry alphadude, I DID not say that Unions were unsafe, nor do they have a safety culture. Safety is EVERYONES responsibility, and if it has to be contractual..... then it must not be a mind set. Anyway, nope, never worked Union, was a part of the Debacle in '90 and '91. You don't even know me, and I am a RAT? Please explain why you call us RATS. Is it because we share the opposite opinions of you? So, all people against Unions are RATS? Like I said earlier, you do spread propaganda, and you do share the same mentality as the Mafia bosses.
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Rent A Tech RAT
been there done that (RAD, ALLIED, ARC, NSS, Combustion) now that was when the money flowed and flowed and flowed- 8)
Contractual agreement leads to civil protection. Nothing wrong with that! Ensure legal and financial obligation. (its boiler plate on all contracts)
house mouse nice try but you got a long way to go...I think you want to be in management...welcome to the dark side
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:) I have a contract with my hiring company and I dont have a union due debt to get keep my job.. 8)
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It is more than likely an "at will" agreement. These really protect the company more than the workers but thats ok. The way to tell the advantage Tina is "what is the full value of the contract you have with your employer- dollar wise?" If you know this, you have a pretty good contract, it will be stated as part of the contractual conditions. NTE value.
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"at will contract."
Yea I wil show up AT the project and the company WILL pay me...
humm ...
no dues here 8)
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"at will" means you can be terminated for no reason as the employer sees fit. AT THE WILL of the employer.
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:)
Ok lets see dosnt that cositute a companies reputation... If I heard that company a was letting employees go when there was no just cause or if I witnessed a company acting in that maner ... wouldnt that tell me and other techs that "that company" wasnt the place to work for... I realize some companies has a numbers game to play but if I was treated what I would consider unfair I would post it to see others opions on the subject and guess what that means bad publicity for that particlular company ... and after while they would be hard pressed to find good employees to treat unfairly ... that would do better then anything a union could impose at my expense.... I dont know of anything that would require a union to help except pay I might not have received that I was due... and the way it stands now I handle that with HR depts ... 8) at no cost to me like union dues...
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"at will" means you can be terminated for no reason as the employer sees fit. AT THE WILL of the employer.
amen brudder alphadude. see also, employed at will by the employer. this means that if you are offered suitable employment and refuse it, the company is well within it's legal rights to make things difficult for you. this would be future employment, site of said future employment, future wages, and current unemployment qualification. granted, the employee also has a right to ask for employment, but there is no legal ramification if the employer does not tender an offer. right to work is not a guarantee to work. lotsa folks will tell ya it is a guarantee not to loaf. ::)
btw alphadude, this is the absolute last thread that i ebber thaught i wood agree with ya sew much. 'n i got rid of my ocaw tshirt (frum oconee organizing ina 70s) only about 2 years ago when it finally completely fell apart. of course, that was after i got it back from my kids. they all thought it was a great t two wear 'cause absolutely nobuddy around here had one like it.
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but the beauty is im non union so its not propaganda if I dont belong to the party.. Im management
how did you come to the conclusion that unions are not part of the safety culture? Unions partner with safety and are contractually bound to do so. (safety culture is beyond "protect the core" mentality)
Sorry alphadude, I DID not say that Unions were unsafe, nor do they have a safety culture. Safety is EVERYONES responsibility, and if it has to be contractual..... then it must not be a mind set. Anyway, nope, never worked Union, was a part of the Debacle in '90 and '91. You don't even know me, and I am a RAT? Please explain why you call us RATS. Is it because we share the opposite opinions of you? So, all people against Unions are RATS? Like I said earlier, you do spread propaganda, and you do share the same mentality as the Mafia bosses.
Let me help with this one RAT= Rent A Tech, RATS, plural, more than one! Nothing derogatory intended here. I happen to agree with alphadude, and I too can't vote here. The whole reasons unions came into being was workplace safety! I too was also a part of the debacle in 91. The IBEW didn't drop us, the freelancing organizers screwed things up royaly. They overstepped their authority, and we blindly followed, because we wanted and needed a union. You still need a union, and I can assure you that this time it won't be miss handled. Tina, your union helped you get to the place you are today, wether you want to admit it or not. The NRC set regulations to protect the public and workers, doesn't have anything to do with union or non union. It's law and we all have to abide by it. In a house situation, it's very different than what is being proposed here. Yes the company picks the health care provider, usually low bid is why. The union will negotiate how much or what kind of coverage is accetable. Traing can be provided by the union, if it is deemed beneficial. alphadude is correct again,, INPO is the main reason we all (house) have "INPO Acredited" cycle training. Dave Warren, interesting stats. Would you know where to pull up some similar stats on the educational rankings of the states. I'll bet the southern states are low here also!
JJ 8)
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:)
Ok lets see dosnt that cositute a companies reputation...
yeah, 'n iffen i herd "i'll never work fer them agin" once, i herd it a thousand times. but the company is still in biz. very, very few companies are not in the biz because they coodent git techs. iffen they can't hire direct, they'll hire a subcontractor who will hire you. so there you are. doncha feel good now. butcha still buying yer own insurance or taking what is given ya, 'n yer still funding alla yer retirement or taking what is given ya, 'n yer still funding yer life ona rode or taking what is given ya. still having fun? good.
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Hey,
I didn't mean to offend no one. But, please, don't tell me that the SAFETY CULTURE that we ALL have in our line of work...is here because of the Union. I didn't mean to insinuate that the Union isn't safe. I was at Pilgrim, escorting a HEPA unit from outside the PA, with a pipefitter. He decided he was going to his locker to remove his jacket, before he crossed the RCA boundary. I told him I would just place the HEPA unit across the line for him, and my job was done. He fanatically tried to tell me that "this is our equipment, you don't have a right to touch my equipment". I came back and told him that it is "Radioactive Material", which makes it MY material, and I will do what is best for the situation. Of course his bully, mafia like tactics didn't fare well with me. At Braidwood, working generators, the operators came to drain the bowl. I briefed them on the conditions of the platform. They asked who performed the survey. I said I did, just 30 minutes ago. They replied that they need a survey from a house tech. Of course my HOUSE supervisor got involved, and ...well, they drained the bowl. My point is, you are trying to use 1930 tactics, in a 2007 world. I get paid what the Union gets paid, I get a bigger bonus. Don't feed all these false acusations on pay, better work conditions, equal pay. My insurance plan is the same as the Union plan, same doctor, same price, same everything. When I traveled for shared resources, our mileage, per diem was the same. If I get fired from my job, it is due to much more than a union can protect me from. If anything, these roadies will be making what WE make during an outage, which would probably be a lot less than what they are making now. Ask Tina, she sounds like she has lived it.....Both sides alphadude!! The best a union would do for you is benefits, and that is it. But, it will also endanger your pay and diem. Remember, business is give and take.
I won't bother with this thread any more after this, obviously I am lowering myself by responding.
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Of course his bully, mafia like tactics didn't fare well with me.
I get paid what the Union gets paid, I get a bigger bonus.
watt tactics did he use... give ya a cupla taps ina backa da haid?
yer a housemouse 'n git paid bigger bonuses than the union? i'd like to see that. maybe one of the google freaks can post the union total rate (inclusive of all compensations) 'n you kin post alla yers. cause unless ya gots a professional position with a signed contract in place, i am looking sumwatt askance at yer claim.
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Well, I guess I have to answer SloGlos question. I am such an idiot.....but yes, my Teamshare is worth MORE than a Union Housemouse. The Union negotiated a 3.5% raise every year. The Utility says fine, we will give that if you take a 3.5% Teamshare....Tops. The Union says yes. Meantime, I get nothing less than a 3% raise, and an opportunity for a 7% Teamshare. If the Teamshare is only worth 40% of our Max, I still get MORE. Meanwhile, my MERIT raise is in the hands of that mean, foul, management....and I still get the same 3% raise the Union operator gets. SloGlo, JJ, alphadude, when you let a NEGOTIATOR in to your MONEY, you get what HE/SHE negotiates...maybe more, maybe less, nothing for certain. Obviously nothing you expected. However the dues do not fluctuate with the money you will always lose. Your benefits are in the same boat....no guarantee, no matter what you think. Yes, I was once a supporter of the Union....until I was told that once I sign a card, my wage, benefits, bonuses...are all in their hands, no guarantee!!!!!! That is when I said....NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your lifestyle, your work ethic, what is important to you is in your OWN hands, and no one elses. Again, this is 2007, not 1930. Later
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Weingarten Rights. The following information is a quote from the IBEW web site:
“In 1975, in NLRB v. J. Weingarten, Inc, the U.S. Supreme Court defined the rights of employees in the presence of union representatives during investigatory interviews. Since that case involved a clerk being investigated by the Weingarten Company, these rights have become known as Weingarten rights. In 2000, the NLRB extended those rights to non-union workplaces.
However, in 2004, in IBM Corp. and Kenneth Schult, the National Labor Relations Board (Board) reversed themselves and decided by a 3-2 vote that non-unionized employees are not legally entitled to have a coworker present during an investigatory interview that the employee reasonably believes might result in discipline.”
What is an “INVESTIGATORY INTERVIEW”? Again, quoting from the IBEW Web Site: “Employees have Weingarten rights only during investigatory interviews. An investigatory interview occurs when a supervisor questions an employee to obtain information that could be used as a basis for discipline or asks an employee to defend his or her conduct. If an employee has a reasonable belief that discipline or other adverse consequences may result from what he or she says, the employee has a right to request union representation.”
OK You keep asking for 1 just 1. Here one is! I've posted lots, but ya'll got blinders on, or you're all 13 years old and I can't tell you anything! azkidd, last i checked when i was a union construction worker at a Union nuke, being covered by both union hose techs and non union contractors. I took direction from the techs (both kinds), and did the work, you just watched! HP will watch work for money! Oh and the union house techs out earned the Bartlett techs by well over $10.00 per hour, now mind you this is old money, not your grossly inflated dollar of today, This was 25 years ago. But I'm hose now,non union for now, and I still outearn you road techs by over $10.00 per hour, and I shouldn't. I have way better bennies, and I shouldn't. You all deserve as much or more than I get, it's harder for you, you give up part of your life to support our outages. You should be rewarded, not punished. Don't worry about our per diem, and travel. We get the federal max. What are you getting now? Oh you were sick a couple of days, too bad, I hate it for you! We'll take up some money for you, cause the company won't. They'll steal your diem. Do you think they give it back to the utilities? Hardheaded teenagers! Whew!
JJ ::)
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You might WATCH work JJ, but I do what is necessary to reduce exposure, AFTER my HP duties are COMPLETE!! Union, non Union, I will help pull a recirc pump, I will help transport CRD's to the rebuild room, whatever. Again, your job is what you make of it. Of course they deserve better than you.....you just WATCH!!
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:) this is unreal... you act like roadies have no security or benefits because we are non union....I have a 401K plan matched by the company that hired me ... I have an insurance plan that Id put up next to anyone else... I get a good hourly wage w/ overtime... vacation and sick days too ... and should I choose not to take the vacation/ sick day package I get the money per hour on my wage so I dont do without .... all this and Im not union and dont pay union dues ... I get travel in and out on a project and per diem ... there is not one thing here that a union will get me that I dont already have as well as their union dues ;) my company makes sure my quals are up to date and I have hazwhoper and 8hr refreshers for safety concerns .... even if I join a union I still am not "garenteed" work ...unions lay off just like companies do ... so being in a union is no more a work gartentee then not being in one ... if you can show me why I should pay a union dues and what they would get me that I havent gotten for myself I'm listening ::)
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Ya'll have been doing pretty well at keeping it respectful and thus also keeping this from going to the poly-sci section. I'd just ask the we ALL try to keep it that way so that everyone can contribute to and benefit from the discussion.
Thanks in advance,
Tom
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"at will" means you can be terminated for no reason as the employer sees fit. AT THE WILL of the employer.
You can also quit w/ no notice.
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Oh Oh, Union just dropped below 40 percent on the poll. Amost 2 to 1 against.!! :)
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slo go i know you know my cuz larry addis
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(wonder why 30 techs quit in one month at Oconee in 1977?) harsh non-union southern white man politics-
I think it had a lot to do with something getting in their eyes ........ called per-diem!!! I don't think those guys are union today are they??? Couldn't get them out of there with a stick of dynomite!
I think it was this time period I knew I wanted to be in management. If I had to swallow at least there was some honey with it-
If guess if you're a swallower, you have to do, what you have to do!
Oh Walt I didnt know you were a "fellow traveler!" nice cover....
No cover needed! That's my real name, not a user name. Where I live and where I'm from is accessible info, not hiding.
(benefits from the union wage scale but contributes nothing to his fellow workers) Its all about me!
Not really, it's about my family, then it's about me! I have on many occasions, and would gladly today help anyone in this crazy biz with anything I could, be it personal or work related. Like I've stated before, one thing I learned (sometimes the hard way) in the RAT business is that you don't put your family's financial security in the hands of fellow RATS, AS A GROUP, or any other organizations. The nail in the coffin / slap in the face that finally woke me up was 1990! I'll never allow that to happen again (to me).
didnt know I was from Oconee did ya!
Think I've seen or read it before, but it doesn't matter, what's your point....??
Walt
(not-on-the-fence)
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most of us that left oconee didnt go on the road we did other things- this was pre TMI so the demand was low to no for techs - this was all techs not just rad.
the traveller comment was in reguards to some one that benefits from others doing the work such as getting the wage higher (union) and not paying the dues or joining the union.
are u some of the Bear Swamp harris?
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:)
Ok lets see dosnt that cositute a companies reputation... If I heard that company a was letting employees go when there was no just cause or if I witnessed a company acting in that maner ... wouldnt that tell me and other techs that "that company" wasnt the place to work for... I realize some companies has a numbers game to play but if I was treated what I would consider unfair I would post it to see others opions on the subject and guess what that means bad publicity for that particlular company ... and after while they would be hard pressed to find good employees to treat unfairly ... that would do better then anything a union could impose at my expense.... I dont know of anything that would require a union to help except pay I might not have received that I was due... and the way it stands now I handle that with HR depts ... 8) at no cost to me like union dues...
Have you actually read anything on this site? Plenty of bad-mouthing goes on here about at least one company. Still, any tech without a job will work for them when they are called. You simply cannot enforce your rights as an employee by threatening to say bad things about a company.
The fact is that you don't have a contract. If you don't want one, okay. That's your choice. But you have no contract, no recourse, no pension, and nobody who will try to get those things for you.
From what I have read of your posts, it seems to me that you don't understand what a union does or why. When your membership voted to give up a raise, it was probably to get something else instead. It is very likely that the members saw more wisdom in funding the pension, or healthcare, or some other important benefit than in just putting the money into the paycheck. If you don't like the way that works, you are better off without a union. If you are only out for you - and to hell with higher pay and better benefits for everyone else - the union is better off without you too.
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wow get to the point beercourt - you da man! i think that should close this up nicely
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Hey,
I didn't mean to offend no one. But, please, don't tell me that the SAFETY CULTURE that we ALL have in our line of work...is here because of the Union. I didn't mean to insinuate that the Union isn't safe. I was at Pilgrim, escorting a HEPA unit from outside the PA, with a pipefitter. He decided he was going to his locker to remove his jacket, before he crossed the RCA boundary. I told him I would just place the HEPA unit across the line for him, and my job was done. He fanatically tried to tell me that "this is our equipment, you don't have a right to touch my equipment". I came back and told him that it is "Radioactive Material", which makes it MY material, and I will do what is best for the situation. Of course his bully, mafia like tactics didn't fare well with me. At Braidwood, working generators, the operators came to drain the bowl. I briefed them on the conditions of the platform. They asked who performed the survey. I said I did, just 30 minutes ago. They replied that they need a survey from a house tech. Of course my HOUSE supervisor got involved, and ...well, they drained the bowl. My point is, you are trying to use 1930 tactics, in a 2007 world. I get paid what the Union gets paid, I get a bigger bonus. Don't feed all these false acusations on pay, better work conditions, equal pay. My insurance plan is the same as the Union plan, same doctor, same price, same everything. When I traveled for shared resources, our mileage, per diem was the same. If I get fired from my job, it is due to much more than a union can protect me from. If anything, these roadies will be making what WE make during an outage, which would probably be a lot less than what they are making now. Ask Tina, she sounds like she has lived it.....Both sides alphadude!! The best a union would do for you is benefits, and that is it. But, it will also endanger your pay and diem. Remember, business is give and take.
I won't bother with this thread any more after this, obviously I am lowering myself by responding.
What you refuse to admit is that you are benefitting from the union without the need to be a member. The reason your company so carefully matches turn-for-turn the package that a union would offer is so that you won't join one. If there ever comes a time when the possibility of your workforce joining a union goes away completely, so will all those bennies.
Look, I have been exactly where you are. I was a house tech at a non-union plant. We got all the goodies. There were weeks when I would make as much money on a Sunday as the contractors did for the whole week. The company even published an admission in the employee handbook - although they didn't intend to. It said that they believed that their employees didn't need a union because they were already giving us everything we could get with one. They never realized that people who were smart enough to split atoms were also smart enough to see that the converse was true - that they gave us all that stuff so we wouldn't feel the need to join a union. It was also quite clear that if we did join a union, they could take it all away and make us bargain to get it all back if we could.
When the time came for a union vote - and that time did come - they managed to get the NLRB to make the vote company-wide. Naturally, all those clerks and low-level employees, who felt that they were lucky to get things like pensions and health insurance, stuck with the company and voted no.
When a union vote goes down like that, the company gets the upper hand. Almost immediately, stuff started going away. The retirement plan changed. Health insurance contributions got smaller. Double-time days could get changed to your day off - no matter what day of the week it was. The 40 hour week actually ended DURING a shift for the Friday shift tech. Yeah, as soon as the threat of unionizing went away, the shift HP could be working a 12-hour shift and go from one pay week to the next in the middle of the shift so the company could work him 44 hours without paying OT. (The pay week ended ar Friday midnight for everyone else, but 4pm for the shift HP. Different rules for everybody just to save the company $50/week.) There was no contract in place to keep them from taking away all the stuff that they so "generously" gave us.
It wasn't any union organizer or union literature that made me want to vote in a union - it was the company who "took such good care of me" that made me vote YES.
So, sit in your catbird seat and brag all you want about all you are getting. Just make sure to crow as loudly when you're not getting it any more.
BTW, I'm still here. The company no longer exists.
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Once again, someone has tried to interject useless information into the discussion. The Nukeman, who appears to be anti-union, is so happy to point out that the poll indicates what it does. The poll is based on 85 total votes. This is still barely 10% of the available techs. In a bit of pure boredom, I have gone back to page one to see how many people have posted and what they posted. Only 61 different people have posted on this thread. Not all of those have opined one way or another on the subject at hand. The actual postings show the subject is about even. I realize that I'm not a moderator, but please don't try to argue or prove a point with useless facts.
Keith
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The Utility says fine, we will give that if you take a 3.5% Teamshare....Tops. The Union says yes. Meantime, I get nothing less than a 3% raise, and an opportunity for a 7% Teamshare. If the Teamshare is only worth 40% of our Max, I still get MORE.
my turn ina idiot box..... wotinell is a teamshare?
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You can also quit w/ no notice.
this benny is available in right to work, as well as union areas, and employ at will contracts.
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Oh Oh, Union just dropped below 40 percent on the poll. Amost 2 to 1 against.!! :)
i'm looking at pro 39.1%, anti 60.9% witch according to my finger math is 3:2 against. mebbe eye shud use my tows?
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slo go i know you know my cuz larry addis
larry, i never met a bike i coodent ride, addis? yeah, eye nos him. haven't seen him in a berry long time. tell him i said hi. ;)
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You might WATCH work JJ, but I do what is necessary to reduce exposure, AFTER my HP duties are COMPLETE!! Union, non Union, I will help pull a recirc pump, I will help transport CRD's to the rebuild room, whatever. Again, your job is what you make of it. Of course they deserve better than you.....you just WATCH!!
azkidd, very good. Once again someone makes it personal. My handle is my name and vice a versa. I never said I watch work for money. I like to think I do a very good job at what I do. When I worked in a union plant, we had enough help to do all of the things you say you asisted the workers with. I do the same thing at my plant, because the workers are always short staffed. Funny how that works! I work a lot inter-departmental, more than most anyone I know, and all of the other craft like working with me. I move fuel, have mechanics quals, do IV's for OPS, work with IT, etc. But you think they deserve better. i'll let them judge not you. attack me if you have to, to make yourself feel important. I sometimes wonder why I bother speaking up for the benefit of everyone, when there are people that don't appreciate my concerns. You obviously work in a right to work state, and have choosen to ignore the rest of your fellow workers. That's a shame! Sometime you'll need the union and they are obligated to protect you just the same as a dues paying member. That's the real shame! If I was one of your union officials, and had to deffend you, I would do so to the best of my ability. I'm just glad I don't have too. Hooray for you, I'm glad for you that you get the extra money. Teamshare is a unusual name for a vehicle to shaft you fellow workers.
JJ :o
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:) this is unreal... you act like roadies have no security or benefits because we are non union....I have a 401K plan matched by the company that hired me ... I have an insurance plan that Id put up next to anyone else... I get a good hourly wage w/ overtime... vacation and sick days too ... and should I choose not to take the vacation/ sick day package I get the money per hour on my wage so I dont do without .... all this and Im not union and dont pay union dues ... I get travel in and out on a project and per diem ... there is not one thing here that a union will get me that I dont already have as well as their union dues ;) my company makes sure my quals are up to date and I have hazwhoper and 8hr refreshers for safety concerns .... even if I join a union I still am not "garenteed" work ...unions lay off just like companies do ... so being in a union is no more a work gartentee then not being in one ... if you can show me why I should pay a union dues and what they would get me that I havent gotten for myself I'm listening ::)
Tina,
You must have died and gone to heaven, because i'm not familiar with any rent a tech company with all of that. Be carefull you don't post any pertinant data about the firm, because all of your anti union buddies will snake you out of a job, because they can and would. BeerCourt, you are my hero! Awsome posts! 8)
JJ
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...because all of your anti union buddies will snake you out of a job, because they can and would...
?
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UncaBuffalo,
If she tells them who it is, They'll have more resumes than file drawers. Her employers may decide that Tina needs to go, because lots have more experience, better degrees, younger, male, ect, ect. Being there's no contract, she would be very much at risk. Hell she makes it sound so good, I'm going to quit here as soon as I find out where it is! :P
JJ
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I've posted lots, but ya'll got blinders on, or you're all 13 years old and I can't tell you anything! azkidd, last i checked when i was a union construction worker at a Union nuke, being covered by both union hose techs and non union contractors. I took direction from the techs (both kinds), and did the work, you just watched! HP will watch work for money!
Whatever!! Go 13 year old
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JJ first off my hat goes off to you ! You have put in countless hours trying to keep folks informed about the pro's and con's of a union all on your own time. I also want azkidd to know that while working the refuel floor at JJ's plant 2 years ago it was JJ who was there to help us out wether we needed additional hp coverage or just an extra hand when we had trouble with crd's that would not uncouple. Or to help out during cavity decon operations when the decon staff was severly understaffed and needed some hp techs to help out. he also goes out of his way to make everyone feel appreciated while working there. once again JJ your the best !!
JJ
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JJ first off my hat goes off to you ! You have put in countless hours trying to keep folks informed about the pro's and con's of a union all on your own time. I also want azkidd to know that while working the refuel floor at JJ's plant 2 years ago it was JJ who was there to help us out wether we needed additional hp coverage or just an extra hand when we had trouble with crd's that would not uncouple. Or to help out during cavity decon operations when the decon staff was severly understaffed and needed some hp techs to help out. he also goes out of his way to make everyone feel appreciated while working there. once again JJ your the best !!
Thank You for the kind words. As for me being self absorbed, I don't think so. this isn't about me, it's about me trying to make things better for all of the rent a techs. Not JJ, but you all! Even Walt, azkidd, Tina, SGT, nukeman, GeorgeBadkitty, and any other anti union poster I may have forgotten. Tina, you never made it personal, always on a proffesional level. Thank You.if I've attacked anyone personally, please accept my apologies. I don't recall doing it, and if I did, it was unintentional. That's not really my style. As for disagreeing, this is a thread on a forum that I started. You had 2 options for or against. I didn't lock you out if you disagreed,. I tried to explain my feelings and positions through personal experiences, and reading lots of information on unions. I never expected everyone to agree, and never expected to convert everyone to my way of thinking. I do know that several posters have insulted me personally, but that's OK. I accept the fact that I'm just a mediocre tech. I do the best I can with what I've got. Come to Brunswick and see for yourself. BTW the wages are kind of low because we don't have a union here. But we treat you real nice. Try and pay your mortgage with that!
JJ :-*
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j..... mudder theresa..... jordan! woodant cha know that peepel wood take off on yew because they can't git reel far on da subject! yinz still gots weigh more patience than eye due.
i worked off and on jjordan fer years. altho its been a long time since we crossed paths, there is no one that i'd rather crew with. none. well, one, butt she gotta body that........... oops, anudder subject matter almost got in there. anyway, this man has worked the shoes offa most people he's been along side of, 'n worked the butts of those who opposed him. to take what he says as a plant creed item 'n bash him with it is..... fairly infantile. 'n not very fair, either. this is one of the squarest shooters that i have ever worked with. maybe not the squarest you have, butt jjordan 'n i go back to before u2 at the beav wuz finished 'n here's hoping we git anudder chance to do a job agin.
as far as putting union beliefs on this thread..... duh! that's the freaking topic.
now, i'll put a number out there, sumbuddy tell me iffen i'm wrong, k? i think an hourly rate package for a ibew union tech should be ~$47/hr. is this close?
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j..... mudder theresa..... jordan! woodant cha know that peepel wood take off on yew because they can't git reel far on da subject! yinz still gots weigh more patience than eye due.
i worked off and on jjordan fer years. altho its been a long time since we crossed paths, there is no one that i'd rather crew with. none. well, one, butt she gotta body that........... oops, anudder subject matter almost got in there. anyway, this man has worked the shoes offa most people he's been along side of, 'n worked the butts of those who opposed him. to take what he says as a plant creed item 'n bash him with it is..... fairly infantile. 'n not very fair, either. this is one of the squarest shooters that i have ever worked with. maybe not the squarest you have, butt jjordan 'n i go back to before u2 at the beav wuz finished 'n here's hoping we git anudder chance to do a job agin.
as far as putting union beliefs on this thread..... duh! that's the freaking topic.
now, i'll put a number out there, sumbuddy tell me iffen i'm wrong, k? i think an hourly rate package for a ibew union tech should be ~$47/hr. is this close?
That's somewhere in the ball park SloGlo. Somewhere in the mid 30's for wages, then the pension, and espeacially the hospitilization. The contract company needs their cut too. They do have a good bit of overhead. oh and thanks for the kind words too. you haven't called me "mother" for a long time! Miss working with you, but don't miss the PA winters. You're gonna have to come down here. we have this brewery! :P
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Just got my march copy of Money magazine. Here are a few interesting figures from it.
Boomers have more spendable income than their parents
.
Boomers.3 to 1 ratio of wealth to earnings
Parents 2.2 to 1
But only 39% have a pension plan now.
In 1981 81% had a plan
Male life expectancy has increased 1.7 years since 1983
Out of pocket doctor bills as a % of social security benefits,
1980 7% 2030 20%
It also predicts without changes to Social security, The fund will be totlly out of money in the year 2040.
This may or may not impact you. I hope it does me! The unions would try to get you some sort of pension, and affordable healh care, which will probably impact us all the most as we age. I wonder if the out of pocket medical included viagra? :P
JJ
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I just wish I could get the same pay as the Idaho techs. Those techs must be something special to get all that pay. Did ya see they even pay the motel bills on the travel path and what almost .49 cents/mile for travel? My favorite company must not have bidded on that contract.
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Don't all the companies pay .485 per mile when using your personal vehicle and 1-2 days diem,8 hrs travelpay at your payrate ???
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Don't all the companies pay .485 per mile when using your personal vehicle and 1-2 days diem,8 hrs travelpay at your payrate ???
only iffen they go the max allowed.....
IR-2006-168, Nov. 1, 2006
WASHINGTON — The Internal Revenue Service today issued the 2007 optional standard mileage rates used to calculate the deductible costs of operating an automobile for business, charitable, medical or moving purposes.
Beginning Jan. 1, 2007, the standard mileage rates for the use of a car (including vans, pickups or panel trucks) will be:
48.5 cents per mile for business miles driven;
20 cents per mile driven for medical or moving purposes; and
14 cents per mile driven in service to a charitable organization.
The new rate for business miles compares to a rate of 44.5 cents per mile for 2006. The new rate for medical and moving purposes compares to 18 cents in 2006. The primary reasons for the higher rates were higher prices for vehicles and fuel during the year ending in October.
The standard mileage rates for business, medical and moving purposes are based on an annual study of the fixed and variable costs of operating an automobile. Runzheimer International, an independent contractor, conducted the study for the IRS.
The mileage rate for charitable miles is set by statute.
A taxpayer may not use the business standard mileage rate for a vehicle after using any depreciation method under the Modified Accelerated Cost Recovery System (MACRS), after claiming a Section 179 deduction for that vehicle, for any vehicle used for hire or for more than four vehicles used simultaneously. Revenue Procedure 2006-49 contains additional information on these standard mileage rates.
Related Items:
Revenue Procedure 2006-49
Subscribe to IRS Newswire
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Don't all the companies pay .485 per mile when using your personal vehicle and 1-2 days diem,8 hrs travelpay at your payrate ???
Last I knew they only paid a fraction of that. Capped it at amonts like $150.00, no matter how far you drove. Some sites only paid one way, usually in. you had to wrk your way back across country. I had to do that once from San Onofre. went to STP, then Surry, then home. I don't need a union, I'm creative and flexible. See just bend me over! :P
JJ
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OK, OK maybe I've been out of the loop a little too long. I've been house over 8 years now. I'm just gauging by what we pay our contractors here (PGN) We are paying somewhere in the low 20's per hr. Not too many other perks either. i was just reflecting on how wonderfull Tina has it, and was wondering if there were lots of jobs like hers out there? It's got to be DOE or some off the wall little project. I think there are only 2 major players in commercial right now, Bartlett, and Atlantic, with a few new start ups. I don't think anyone in that space is paying that well with bennies like she is saying. I'm very curious though and thought I'd ask.
JJ
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ok so the 2007 mileage rate for business travel ( i.e traveling from home to site x or y) then why are companies A,B, or C only paying about 2/3 of the federal rate ? and not paying folks 1 day of per diem for their day of travel to site, which should also include 8 hours of pay for the travel day.
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ok so the 2007 mileage rate for business travel ( i.e traveling from home to site x or y) then why are companies A,B, or C only paying about 2/3 of the federal rate ? and not paying folks 1 day of per diem for their day of travel to site, which should also include 8 hours of pay for the travel day.
Why? Because they can get away with it. i was never paid to drive. I drove to STP twice, and San Onofre once. You can't do that in 2 days if you tried. I've been out of the loop for a while, but I think it's still the same. They will pay a token amount per mile, and then put a cap on it. So no matter how far you travel, you only get so much money. Per Diem? Forget it, better chance of seeing Elvis. This is acceptable to all of the techs, because it's always been this way, so why change now?
JJ :P
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SONGS paid the whole mileage both ways the two times I went there, but the rate was somewhat lower than the federal.
Other sites have capped at 400 miles, $250, or paid one flat rate to everyone for travel. Some pay only for travel in.
As a contract RP/HP I NEVER got paid per diem for a travel day, in or out. In fact, I have been given a layoff on Monday morning following a night shift and not gotten per diem for Monday. Even better - it was Memorial Day and I got no holiday pay because it was Sunday's shift.
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SONGS paid the whole mileage both ways the two times I went there, but the rate was somewhat lower than the federal.
Other sites have capped at 400 miles, $250, or paid one flat rate to everyone for travel. Some pay only for travel in.
As a contract RP/HP I NEVER got paid per diem for a travel day, in or out. In fact, I have been given a layoff on Monday morning following a night shift and not gotten per diem for Monday. Even better - it was Memorial Day and I got no holiday pay because it was Sunday's shift.
When I went to SONGS, they only paid in! It was a good rate, better than most, but still not the Federal max. I pulled my 5th wheel, and was doing fine until I got through Texas. It was uphill all the way to California. you could hear my truck drinking gas. I had to work my way back across the states, cause i didn't have enough money for gas. When I worked SONGS, they forced me on backshift, and sent me home early, and brought me in late to save a dime. I never even got close to a 60 hr pay. I left after the first outage, told them I didn't drive 3500 miles to work part time.Was told I'd never work in the industry again! I'm still thinking you need a contract to prevent this from happening to you!
JJ
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Yeah everytime I went to SONGS one way travel pay in. You have to schedule another outage that doesnt have a cap right after SONGS to get travel pay from them. They had another rule if you werent there so many days you would get travel pay out. Also 11.5 for 12 hours.
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Well lets look at the positives. The state of California got you time and a half for all hours over 8 in a day. The negative would be , that's only in CA, all the other states, you need 40 hrs before that kicks in. Any time you miss is all premium time. ALL of it. You need a union.
JJ
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Once upon a time, back in "the day" (yeah, I'm one of them old-timers), we would get paid travel pay to and from the job plus one day of perdiem and 8 hours of time for every 500 hundred miles (or fraction thereof) when reporting to or leaving a site. I guess too many people screwed with the companies back then as this policy slowly evaporated over the years.
I can't really complain about the travel pay rates or policies today. They seem to be adequate (for my needs anyway). However, it would be nice to have everything standardized (expecially if it was to my benefit).
Do we have a sample contract yet (with a prospective union to represent it)? All this talk is nice, but I haven't seen anything upon which to base an informed opinion. I need something concrete to overcome the biases of my youth.
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SONGS as of fall 2006.
$23/hour, $100/day, Full travel in and out @ fed.rate. $1/hour bonus.
11.5 for 12, overtime after 8. Way too little pay and perdiem for that area so I will choose not to go back if at all possible until that scenario changes...I have that choice. Shame, I really enjoy working that plant, but I enjoy saving $ for the family time way more!
Hotel in San Clemente: $385/week including taxes, decent place and close to work.
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SONGS as of fall 2006.
$23/hour, $100/day, Full travel in and out @ fed.rate. $1/hour bonus.
11.5 for 12, overtime after 8. Way too little pay and perdiem for that area so I will choose not to go back if at all possible until that scenario changes...I have that choice. Shame, I really enjoy working that plant, but I enjoy saving $ for the family time way more!
Thanks Bat Man! It's been a while for me.I see some things have changed for the better, but very little. you can get 23/hour anywhere, and $100.00 might get you a stylish carboard box somewhere in the high desert. Don't even think about living near the coast. Lots of sites don't pay you for lunch, because without a contract, they don't have to. When we work 12's we get paid, but don't get real comfortable, because they will interupt you if needed, or work you long past your time. It isn't designated so they can. like I said before, thank the state of California for the time and a half, not Edison. They would do you on that too if they could. like I said in my previous posts, they used to manipulate my time to avoid paying me any premium time, I couldn't afford to live there, so I had to go. I liked working the plant as well, but if you can't make any money, I'll choose to starve to death well rested, Thank You!
JJ ;)
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Once upon a time, back in "the day" (yeah, I'm one of them old-timers), we would get paid travel pay to and from the job plus one day of perdiem and 8 hours of time for every 500 hundred miles (or fraction thereof) when reporting to or leaving a site. I guess too many people screwed with the companies back then as this policy slowly evaporated over the years.
I can't really complain about the travel pay rates or policies today. They seem to be adequate (for my needs anyway). However, it would be nice to have everything standardized (expecially if it was to my benefit).
Do we have a sample contract yet (with a prospective union to represent it)? All this talk is nice, but I haven't seen anything upon which to base an informed opinion. I need something concrete to overcome the biases of my youth.
Whew Doggies,
You are old! Bet you even remeber demolition derby with the rental cars! It would be nice to get what your elected officials get, with no tampering, favoritism, or BS. It costs you just as much to live as it does me, or say a Jr or a deconner.( I din't figure in your AARP discounts) I feel your pain, and hopefully a little relief is on the way. As far as sample contracts, we are kind of blazing new trails here. When the organizers came to town, we saw versions of signed house contacts. Lots of them. You know what? They were all different. Like the point I've been trying to drive home. It's what the majority proposes, and vote into place. I'll be meeting with some people in late Feb, and maybe we can put some of our ideas down on paper. But hey i'v got a novel idea. Since it's you union, not mine. Tell me what you would like to see! Then I can take it to them. Some of what they think they can do would be administer the health care. The contractors would pay a set amount for hours worked into a fund, and it would be paid to a health care provider say Blue Cross, maybe others. There would be an economy of numbers. The more participants the cheaper per person. Also you wouldn't have to change providers if you changed employers. You could COBRA for the times when you were utilizing your months of paid vacation (UC) and just pick back up when you returned from the beach! One of the major concerns seems to be who has the preference of hiring for particular sites. I think that the utility should have first preference, and so do most returnees. But what is fair after that? Tell me I'm all ears. What part should senority play? How do you determine who is senior, if you all join the union on the same day? In construction senority never came into play with hiring and layoffs. i know this comes as a shock to many who keep beating a dead horse. I hired who I wanted, and laid off, or fired who I wanted. if you didn't perform you went first. I didn't care if you were the founding father! If I couldn't staff on my own, I went to the union list. This wasn't based on senority either. It was based on when you worked last, and also speacial qualifications. Top man had the right of refusal 1 time. If he hated my guts and didn't want to work for me, he didn't have to (lots of posters here might fit that catagory now), but had to take the second job, or back to the bottom of the list. Exceptions would be made for requests for speacial quals. The first person on the list with the qual, got the call! They also had the right of refusal, and then it goes to the next on the list with the qual. This should inspire people who want to work to take more training and expand their skillset. It also rewards some of us old farts that can do more than watch the exits! (senority) Like i said, if you all have any ideas, post them, I'll present every last one. Even if I personally don't agree with it. It'll be your contract, not mine!
JJ :D
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chimera,
GE, Areva,Westinghouse still do those bennies ! travel is paid at your wage for 8 hours for domestic travel plus one day of per diem, and get a rental car. per diem is kinda standardized at 95 a day though. travel is paid at 20 hours for international travel each way.
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Well lets look at the positives. The state of California got you time and a half for all hours over 8 in a day. The negative would be , that's only in CA, all the other states, you need 40 hrs before that kicks in. Any time you miss is all premium time. ALL of it. You need a union.
JJ
hay! don't fergit da big kahuna of o.t. bennies in califurna.... 7th day is double time, irregardless of what calendar day it is. iffen yer 7th in a row is tuesday, ka-ching!
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SONGS as of fall 2006.
$23/hour, $100/day, Full travel in and out @ fed.rate. $1/hour bonus.
11.5 for 12, overtime after 8. Way too little pay and perdiem for that area so I will choose not to go back if at all possible until that scenario changes...I have that choice. Shame, I really enjoy working that plant, but I enjoy saving $ for the family time way more!
Hotel in San Clemente: $385/week including taxes, decent place and close to work.
is dat $23/hr before or after yer insurance? retirement? alla those udder perks i bin reeding about here that contractors are gitting that i nebber did while roading fer da family?
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You forgot the biggest perk of being a road tech is that we dont have to listen to or work for unhappy house techs or management all year round.
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You forgot the biggest perk of being a road tech is that we dont have to listen to or work for unhappy house techs or management all year round.
lets face the facts! you like it sooo much you come here to put up with me and my whining. On your spare time no less. Thank you Mike! BB, I'll see you down the road sometime! Take care! ;)
JJ
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is dat $23/hr before or after yer insurance? retirement? alla those udder perks i bin reeding about here that contractors are gitting that i nebber did while roading fer da family?
I have never talked about retirements, insurance or other bene's that I recieve being a road tech. I don't get them and really don't care.
Vote is still no. I have taken care of my own future.
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I used to be pro Union way before even knowing what a rent a tech, much less nuclear power was. I believe that unions still have a place I just don't know if it will do any good for us.
Until the utilities and the companies decide that they really need us and want to buck up and do what they need to do a union won't do us any good in my opinion. Heck who needs a union to tell someone, if you'd plan a little better, or schedule a little better you wouldn't be facing a worker shortage and we wouldn't be facing months without work.
They, the powers that be see the light, they just choose to wear sunglasses and look for quick fixes rather than deal with the problem. Case in point the decision to allow DOE workers full credit for time worked so that that companies could fill empty slots; when we all know that if they sat down with the utilities and really made a decent scheudle we rent a techs could jump from location to location: we did it in the old days and it could still be done. I remember when you left a plant going to the next job it was like the circus packing up and moving on in that we traveled in groups.
I have given up on there ever being a solution as the top two ingriedents don't want one.
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it really can never work that way because of one simple fact- mother nature- she decides when it is warm and when it is cold-thus the peak load seasons. utilities do plan their schedule but its to support the national grid. manpower or tech power is about 50th on the list for reasons to delay an outage- customer demand, market cost, and critical path equipment delays determine when plants come down. Never have I heard that because of tech shortage would there be a delay or consideration of one. When the problem arises, the solution is money, utilities expect to pay about $55 an hour for technical staff and budget for that. So, if there is a shortage, a few dollars on the hour will bring in more techs.
The reason for the union is standardization. Makes it very easy to place bids if we could count on a standard rate. Would save the utility money and would allow cost effective companies a chance in the market.
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I'm new to this board, so I hope this posting is in the right spot. I met with JJ out in Vegas and I work for the IBEW as a rep and have since 99. Prior to that, I worked at FCS as an HP and President of the Local. Did ten years there after nine as a road tech.
I believe that Unions are an advantage for the workers, admittedly I'm biased by my positions/experience, but they are only as strong as the constituent members want them to be. I helped negotiate the master agreement that the Utility Techs use to travel workers under the USA (Utility Services Alliance) Agreement. It does standardize the per diem rates by using the CONUS rates that the Feds approve and the IRS allows as the maiximum unreciepted rates. It doesn't standardize the pay rates, because in this agreement, most of the workers are already covered under contracts at their home Utilties/Locals. It did clarify what was used as selection and refusal process for workers, but did not get into the economics since that had already been covered.
I could envision a Contract Tech agreement that covers P.D. by using CONUS rates and has varying pay based on the cost of living in the area of the plant. Perhaps, based on the negotiated rates of current RP Techs IF the plant is already Union. It would be a reasonable starting point that is quite defendable based on bargainning history at the plant. The trick might be in the beni's. I won't pretend to know what anyone has as their concerns, but I remember when I was on the road, the carrying of Health Insurance during layoffs was one of my major concerns. (I was much younger then and didn't have any concerns about retirement). I believe that by bargaining as group, there is a better chance of succeeding at getting some type of bank for insurance that could be available during "non-outage seasons". Perhaps, it would be possible to include this group under the plan that the IBEW administers.
I don't know what all the questions are, so I certainly don't have the answers. However, if there are questions I can address, I will try and add to this debate.
CJ King
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lets face the facts! you like it sooo much you come here to put up with me and my whining. On your spare time no less. Thank you Mike! BB, I'll see you down the road sometime! Take care! ;)
JJ
Yes JJ, but it like working at the plant with ya, I dont pay attention to hardly a thing you say unless you say ice cream time. Im just kidding of course JJ. By the way what happen to your groups union? Take care JJ
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I have never talked about retirements, insurance or other bene's that I recieve being a road tech. I don't get them and really don't care.
Vote is still no. I have taken care of my own future.
I respect your no vote Bat Man. I just don't understand the logic. I hope you have invested very well, and are on in years, because the younger you are the more likely it will be, that your nest egg will be hit very hard by health care. One serious illness will set you back major. Like CJ said, when I was traveling, I too was younger, and not as concerned with the future. Health care was my primary concern, even though I was very healthy.When i started, I flipped from company to company, the outages were much longer, and this almost worked, but not quite. Everytime you switched, you had a 6 month grace period where you weren't quite covered. Now you had the option to Cobra for up to 18 months, but it was way expensive, and only worked out if you returned to your previous employer. I finally decided for some stability, I would work steady for Bartlett. This worked out for the best for me. Eventually, they got most of the contracts so I didn't have to drive as far or work an undesireable plant. I still had to Cobra 2 maybe 3 month in the summers sometimes, but i had stability, and I knew I'd go back first thing in the fall. I did care about my future also, so when they offered a 40!K I jumped on it! Unfortuatley so did my ex wife and a few attorneys. You may think you have it all covered, but S__t happens, so having some good health care and a pension, might be a good thing!
JJ 8)
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Yes JJ, but it like working at the plant with ya, I dont pay attention to hardly a thing you say unless you say ice cream time. Im just kidding of course JJ. By the way what happen to your groups union? Take care JJ
Brunswick organizing comitee is alive and well. Come see us sometime!
JJ 8)
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GEE I am non Union I do my talks for cash right now 39 an hour straight time and half for ot and double on sundays.
I get full travel in and out plus I hours pay for evey 50 miles I drive to the site.
last job I got them for 45 and time and half for all ot. plus diem .
but what the heck.
the boss paid me 1500 for sitting in my rv when I got here one week.
Life is good.
plus I have bennys 401 they match and Ins. Not blue cross.
so tell me why I need a union?
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I could envision a Contract Tech agreement that covers P.D. by using CONUS rates and has varying pay based on the cost of living in the area of the plant. Perhaps, based on the negotiated rates of current RP Techs IF the plant is already Union. It would be a reasonable starting point that is quite defendable based on bargainning history at the plant.
cjking5406.... thanks fer joining in the discussion. glad to have a rep in here!
would yinz be thinking about multiple contracts on a per plant basis? or a regional basis? is the possiblility of a national agreement on the page?
hay, sumbuddy gotta axe this stuff!
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so tell me why I need a union?
i'm guessing you don't. ya need a hand? what sector of the country do ya work?
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SloGlo, I don't know how to id which posting I'm replying to, but as to what I would forsee....
I would think you would need something on a national basis to have access to the portablity of beni's that are needed for this to work for contractors. Something similar to what the IBEW has for construction workers as it relates to negotiations of health benefits. That's to say, a bank of hours for health care. When a contractor (Bartlett) negotiates their package, it builds in so much per hour for health care. That amount goes into a bank for the worker to use for thier health care and builds up when they work. Let's say a tech works 300 hours a month for three months (regardless of whether it's one outage or multiple stops) and the plan "costs" 120 hours per month for the health care, the worker has banked 540 hours, or 4.5 months of the health care beni. This is done with some construction Locals and is useful for many of our workers who put in long hours some months and none others.
What you can do is, negotiate! There is no way of knowing what will be in a contract, but with some strength in numbers, your may be able to address some of the concerns I've read about in some postings.
CJ
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ramdog_1 You get this kind of money all of the time? Or is this a one time shot? :o
JJ
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SloGlo, I don't know how to id which posting I'm replying to, but as to what I would forsee....
Hit the Quote button in the posting you wish to reply to or Insert Quote after you start a reply.
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Hit the Quote button in the posting you wish to reply to
Thanks, I'm trainable!
CJ
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I respect your no vote Bat Man. I just don't understand the logic. I hope you have invested very well, and are on in years, because the younger you are the more likely it will be, that your nest egg will be hit very hard by health care. One serious illness will set you back major. Like CJ said, when I was traveling, I too was younger, and not as concerned with the future. Health care was my primary concern, even though I was very healthy.When i started, I flipped from company to company, the outages were much longer, and this almost worked, but not quite. Everytime you switched, you had a 6 month grace period where you weren't quite covered. Now you had the option to Cobra for up to 18 months, but it was way expensive, and only worked out if you returned to your previous employer. I finally decided for some stability, I would work steady for Bartlett. This worked out for the best for me. Eventually, they got most of the contracts so I didn't have to drive as far or work an undesireable plant. I still had to Cobra 2 maybe 3 month in the summers sometimes, but i had stability, and I knew I'd go back first thing in the fall. I did care about my future also, so when they offered a 40!K I jumped on it! Unfortuatley so did my ex wife and a few attorneys. You may think you have it all covered, but S__t happens, so having some good health care and a pension, might be a good thing!
JJ 8)
Wouldn't disagree that things can happen. We plan the best we can. Invest, own what you have, and search out a good health plan on your own. Thats what we do. You don't have to have a health plan through the company you work for to have decent insurance. And if you think that a Union is going to protect your assets (including retirement plans) from an ex wife scenario...it won't.
A Union is not an insurance plan for "S--t happens". Responsible living is an insurance plan to minimize the impact of "S--t happens" events.
I grew up in an automotive town, very strong union, very strong "You owe me my job" mentality. I know plenty of union workers that don't have a pot to piss in, I know plenty of union workers that are doing very well. Same goes for my non-union buddies. A union doesn't protect people from making dumb decisions about the way they live life, the way they spend their money and the wife leaving you for a newer model.
I am 37, have a 32 year old wife and a 2 year old daughter. I do realize that insurance gets more expensive the older we get. Right now it isn't too bad, bout the same as a modest car payment. I have a brother in law that is fighting a life threatning illness with a wife and two little girls, their insurance is like a mortgage. But if you don't have car payments and house payments and credit card payments, you can easily afford the health insurance. I get tired of people thinking that some of the benefits of unionizing like cheaper health insurance and a pension are worth the freedom that might be lost. I just don't think it is. You can invest for the future without a union. I do however, respect the opinions of those who are in favor.
Union discussion is like talking about religion, people are passionate on both sides. Makes for interesting conversation.
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the ramdog situation dont sound tooo common so it has no place in the discussion.
hell i got $50 an hour working as a pool boy on the set of Wild Hogs, not to mention the lobster and fillet for lunch and steak and eggs for breakfast.. talking to Travolta and Macy and Lindsey Lohan (train wreck) just for watching a fake pond leak...
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the ramdog situation dont sound tooo common so it has no place in the discussion.
Alphadude is correct, this discussion will drift off of the central subject if we discuss situations outside 2 sigma on the distribution curve.
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Wouldn't disagree that things can happen. We plan the best we can. Invest, own what you have, and search out a good health plan on your own. Thats what we do. You don't have to have a health plan through the company you work for to have decent insurance. And if you think that a Union is going to protect your assets (including retirement plans) from an ex wife scenario...it won't.
A Union is not an insurance plan for "S--t happens". Responsible living is an insurance plan to minimize the impact of "S--t happens" events.
I grew up in an automotive town, very strong union, very strong "You owe me my job" mentality. I know plenty of union workers that don't have a pot to piss in, I know plenty of union workers that are doing very well. Same goes for my non-union buddies. A union doesn't protect people from making dumb decisions about the way they live life, the way they spend their money and the wife leaving you for a newer model.
I am 37, have a 32 year old wife and a 2 year old daughter. I do realize that insurance gets more expensive the older we get. Right now it isn't too bad, bout the same as a modest car payment. I have a brother in law that is fighting a life threatning illness with a wife and two little girls, their insurance is like a mortgage. But if you don't have car payments and house payments and credit card payments, you can easily afford the health insurance. I get tired of people thinking that some of the benefits of unionizing like cheaper health insurance and a pension are worth the freedom that might be lost. I just don't think it is. You can invest for the future without a union. I do however, respect the opinions of those who are in favor.
Union discussion is like talking about religion, people are passionate on both sides. Makes for interesting conversation.
Excellent post you are correct on most accounts if not all. What I'm saying is if the union gets you a package , say insurance and a pension. You don't have to go out and beat the bushes yourself. Most HP's aren't exactly EF Hutton, and have a hard time managing a lot of things, espeacially money! I'm one of the ones that is squirreling extra away, on top of my pension and 401K. 90% won't do this! Some have plans and don't participate. Go figure? But if it's part of the agreement, you're gonna take it? Right? I thought so! The poor managers need the union structure!
JJ
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it really can never work that way because of one simple fact- mother nature- she decides when it is warm and when it is cold-thus the peak load seasons. utilities do plan their schedule but its to support the national grid. manpower or tech power is about 50th on the list for reasons to delay an outage- customer demand, market cost, and critical path equipment delays determine when plants come down.
I noticed that TVA's current Winter Peak record was set during my last outage @ SQN. While the Watts Bar SGRP was driving teh schedule, I don't think giving up 5 months a year is a requirement.
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if reserve and demand balance out then a plant can shut down when it needs too.. I remember before the national grid we used to do an outage during the winter-guess what no fuel oil for the aux boiler- had to stay down for an extra week. when the grid came along and power was sold on the exchange -plants started to cycle into the presummer prewinter season with some stragglers. buying power at a premium is no fun for a utility or its customers.
The contrived California shortage a few years back was the result of some crafty (Enron) people buying power when it was cheap and then selling it back at a hugh profit.. so much for failed Regannomics.. (he had a good idea that was adminstered by greedy people)
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the ramdog situation dont sound tooo common so it has no place in the discussion.
hell i got $50 an hour working as a pool boy on the set of Wild Hogs, not to mention the lobster and fillet for lunch and steak and eggs for breakfast.. talking to Travolta and Macy and Lindsey Lohan (train wreck) just for watching a fake pond leak...
Yeah, and I get $45 to $70 an hour (individually negotiated contracts) to teach english, PLUS expenses. Not to mention that depending on how fast I can type I get up to $75 an hour for translating and proofreading on my computer at home.
Still, it would be interesting and, I am sure, a benefit to learn more about how ramdog gets what he does for BOTH sides of the issue.
I've always done well negotiating on my own in and out of the nuclear world and it sounds like ramdog has done even better in the nuclear biz. So the question I have is....what does ramdog know (or do) that can be applied to other individuals OR a union situation? ::)
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Yeah, and I get $45 to $70 an hour (individually negotiated contracts) to teach english, PLUS expenses. Not to mention that depending on how fast I can type I get up to $75 an hour for translating and proofreading on my computer at home.
Still, it would be interesting and, I am sure, a benefit to learn more about how ramdog gets what he does for BOTH sides of the issue.
I've always done well negotiating on my own in and out of the nuclear world and it sounds like ramdog has done even better in the nuclear biz. So the question I have is....what does ramdog know (or do) that can be applied to other individuals OR a union situation? ::)
How much to teach SloGlo english? I'm one of the few that can understand what he says! :P
JJ
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I see ramdog1 hasn't responded. I checked and the last time he was active here was when he posted on this thread. We'll wait and see if he'll answer the questions. Curious minds want to know! sounds like a small DOE specialist job,One time shot. Most commercial contracts are all in the same ballpark. If there is a plant or company too far out of the curve, everyone here knows about it, and I haven't heard of any sweet deals yet. Must be the large influx of DOE techs that RadGhost was telling us about!
JJ :P
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I do not even see why there is a discussion on this. If there is a union rent a tech and there is a non union tech available who is going to be hired? What company in their right mind is going to deal with a union for rent a techs in this scenario. You get a loser and now he is protected if union. I do not think so.
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It is pretty obvious that you just DO NOT GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A company has absolutely no choice whether it hires union members or not. If its employees vote in a union, then all non-management employees hired in the trades (HP, DECON, etc.) that are organized MUST join the union to be hired. PERIOD.
The company has no right to hire non-union employees if the workforce votes one in.
Read the law on this before you make any more uninformed statements.
To make it simple, I'll give you an example. If the HP and decon techs who work for ACME Radiological Services join a union, then ACME becomes a union shop. Any tech hired by ACME will have to join.
If ACME wants to hire non-union people after that point, they have to start another company that is non-union. However, the employees of that company would then be free to vote in a union too.
At some point, if the techs join a union and refuse to work for non-union companies, then the work will have to go to the unionized techs because there won't be enough non-union techs to fill all the jobs. Then, when HP's who are working non-union for MEFIRST Radiological Services see that there is a big group of HP's who are better compensated and have pensions and paid health insurance, they will organize too.
Please, disabuse yourself of the ridiculous idea that unions exist to protect the jobs of unqualified and lazy people. It is an unfair and inaccurate portrayal of union members. This is the real world - not a Marlon Brando movie.
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A Company has a right to hire techs from a union or non union company to staff a outage or a DOE job etc.. If a company is all union and one is not what prevents a contract to go to the non union techs that work for a non union company? Why would a company hire a union company of temporary workers when they can get non union? Some states are a right to work states and you do not have to join a union to work. What would prevent a company to setup a sattelite main office in a right to work state. Then if they have to hire you as a union or someone else as non union who do you think they are going to hire.
By the way I base my opinion based on the fact I worked with Union workers not movies. As I said before there are some good union workers and I got a DOE national award with them. However the institutionalization of the majority of these workers, laziness, me first attitude, I only do what I want in my humble opinion brings the good ones down and I personally seen it and it made me sick of it, also the good workers who generally had less time in than the seasoned workers. The good workers were in a hopeless situation that lent it self to the good ones getting laid off. I think that union lend themselves to this communistic way and there is no way around it. My Opinion, anyone who is promoting union is looking through rose colored glasses and does not take human nature in account. Communism is the best system if humans were perfect, unfortunately they are not. Unions may be perfect but as we know people are not. Some dues also go to those best to promote a certain agenda. Funny how most of my good workers were in conflict with that agenda and the scum were not.
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But if you don't have car payments and house payments and credit card payments, you can easily afford the health insurance.
well! this must be why the talk of health/medical/prescription insurance for the elderly in this country is such a dead issue, huh?
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if reserve and demand balance out then a plant can shut down when it needs too
when the current fuel testing is complete, commercial reactor fuel for the u.s. domestic fleet will be rated at five years.
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Yeah, and I get $45 to $70 an hour (individually negotiated contracts) to teach english, PLUS expenses. Not to mention that depending on how fast I can type I get up to $75 an hour for translating and proofreading on my computer at home.
Still, it would be interesting and, I am sure, a benefit to learn more about how ramdog gets what he does for BOTH sides of the issue.
I've always done well negotiating on my own in and out of the nuclear world and it sounds like ramdog has done even better in the nuclear biz. So the question I have is....what does ramdog know (or do) that can be applied to other individuals OR a union situation? ::)
austria and ramdog.... sounds like yinz two shud start a new thread! sumtin like..."how do make big bucks outside of normal venues", or "how eye got bill gates jealous of my wallet". ;)
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what prevents a contract to go to the non union techs that work for a non union company?
Communism is the best system if humans were perfect, unfortunately they are not.
contracts go to him watt gots the best (lowest) bottom line. it's da biz data drives da biz!
unions ain't communist. this has bin discussed in this thread befour. maybe considered to be socialistic, but knot communistic. it's a technical thing, eye agree, butt yer in wit a technical bunch here. iffen ya don't wants to be compared to peeple what think like movies, git yer haid out of da old newsreels.
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I do not even see why there is a discussion on this. If there is a union rent a tech and there is a non union tech available who is going to be hired? What company in their right mind is going to deal with a union for rent a techs in this scenario. You get a loser and now he is protected if union. I do not think so.
It's my forum, i started this thread, and gee , It's been a little bit popular. if you don't see, why do you continue to post? Is it really " I don't agree with you, you should view things my way because I'm right and you're wrong" Well this is an open forum, and you're still welcome to post, even if you don't agree. some clarification seems to be necessary once again. The "Union" being proposed would be for the traveling contract technicians, and decon techs at commercial nuclear power plants. Not DOE, or D & D, or any kinky little cleanup or such. Just commercial! Got it? i see lots of postings about all of this money being made, supposedly being paid, I'm throwing the BS flag! As I've just said if someone in commercial was paying $45.00 an hour. My site would be a ghost town! i hope all of the readers can see through all of the smoke. there are a lot of readers, and i wish they would alll take abot 5 minutes, register and tellus your feelings on the issue. I will be talking to CJ and others from the IBEW the 26th through the 28th, and will see if they think there is enough interest to pursue a campaign. This will be rather costly to the IBEW, (that's where some of your dues money goes! To help others organize. You selfish little s**ts!) OOps did I say that? Yes I did, lots of you only think of yourselves, and that's wrong. together we can make it better for all The slugs and the heavy hitters. It's not the unions job to sort out the non productive, that's managements job. If they don't want to do it, get used to working with people who do les than you. I've accepeted that fact long ago. they blame the union for this too, thats where you get it from, you beleive them. They are lazier than the slugs you speak of, thats why they went into management in the first place. They don't like to work and get dirty! The unions job is to protect the workers rights! All workers rights. Get your facts straight. I've worked with non productive workers too, non union, so that makes me think we need a union, because being non union breeds laziness. It's all over the south! Come on get real!
JJ 8)
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Hey Ya'll while your piled up in the house this weekend waiting for your non union outage, in a union plant to start, skim over a little bit of this. now mind you, I don't agree with some of this, but it may open your eyes and minds a little.
JJ ;)
http://blog.aflcio.org/
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A Company has a right to hire techs from a union or non union company to staff a outage or a DOE job etc.. If a company is all union and one is not what prevents a contract to go to the non union techs that work for a non union company? Why would a company hire a union company of temporary workers when they can get non union? Some states are a right to work states and you do not have to join a union to work. What would prevent a company to setup a sattelite main office in a right to work state. Then if they have to hire you as a union or someone else as non union who do you think they are going to hire.
By the way I base my opinion based on the fact I worked with Union workers not movies. As I said before there are some good union workers and I got a DOE national award with them. However the institutionalization of the majority of these workers, laziness, me first attitude, I only do what I want in my humble opinion brings the good ones down and I personally seen it and it made me sick of it, also the good workers who generally had less time in than the seasoned workers. The good workers were in a hopeless situation that lent it self to the good ones getting laid off. I think that union lend themselves to this communistic way and there is no way around it. My Opinion, anyone who is promoting union is looking through rose colored glasses and does not take human nature in account. Communism is the best system if humans were perfect, unfortunately they are not. Unions may be perfect but as we know people are not. Some dues also go to those best to promote a certain agenda. Funny how most of my good workers were in conflict with that agenda and the scum were not.
I'm going to repeat myself, in the vain hope that yo might listen this time. Read the labor laws. Do a little research.
Utilities do not base the award of contracts on whether the bidders are union shops or not - unless they have an agreement with their own union to use union contractors. Those clauses do exist. So, even in a RTW state, they may have no choice but to give the work to union outfits.
They don't even have to give the work to the lowest bidder. Especially since the deregulation of the industry, plants have the freedom to choose contractors based on who does the work better, faster, safer, cheaper, who is available, who has experience in the same type of work, ...etc. Look around and you are not going to see a lot of contracts going to non-union companies if they can't deliver just because they are non-union.
This is my point. If a non-union HP company can't staff an outage with qualified techs, they are simply not going to get much work. If a large number (not even near a majority) of the qualified techs go union, the non-union companies will get wise and start signing with the union so they can keep their contracts. While you are convinced that these companies have the choice - and therefore the upper hand - I have to remind you that they only have the choice that you give them. If the non-union HP tech didn't exist, or there were too few of them to staff the outages, then the companies wouldn't have a choice.
If this is done right - and there is no reason that it can't be - unionization can be beneficial to ALL parties concerned. What you have now is absolutely not.
JJordan has it right. If management is doing its job, there isn't going to be any foot-dragging or hiding out. The bosses where I work will "hit you in the ass with a check" if you don't produce.
If you do work around union members, (You don't actually work "with" them as you say.) go ask them what the phrase, "get you your money" means.
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I'm going to repeat myself, in the vain hope that yo might listen this time. Read the labor laws. Do a little research.
Utilities do not base the award of contracts on whether the bidders are union shops or not - unless they have an agreement with their own union to use union contractors. Those clauses do exist. So, even in a RTW state, they may have no choice but to give the work to union outfits.
They don't even have to give the work to the lowest bidder. Especially since the deregulation of the industry, plants have the freedom to choose contractors based on who does the work better, faster, safer, cheaper, who is available, who has experience in the same type of work, ...etc. Look around and you are not going to see a lot of contracts going to non-union companies if they can't deliver just because they are non-union.
This is my point. If a non-union HP company can't staff an outage with qualified techs, they are simply not going to get much work. If a large number (not even near a majority) of the qualified techs go union, the non-union companies will get wise and start signing with the union so they can keep their contracts. While you are convinced that these companies have the choice - and therefore the upper hand - I have to remind you that they only have the choice that you give them. If the non-union HP tech didn't exist, or there were too few of them to staff the outages, then the companies wouldn't have a choice.
If this is done right - and there is no reason that it can't be - unionization can be beneficial to ALL parties concerned. What you have now is absolutely not.
JJordan has it right. If management is doing its job, there isn't going to be any foot-dragging or hiding out. The bosses where I work will "hit you in the ass with a check" if you don't produce.
If you do work around union members, (You don't actually work "with" them as you say.) go ask them what the phrase, "get you your money" means.
Awsome BeerCourt! ;D I couldn't have said it better. It will be done right this time! I don't know what happened or how things went astray last time. I'm still trying to find out, so it's not repeated. I will be the first one to holler foul, if things appear to be going astray. I hold everyone accountable, union, management, and you techs.There is nothing in it for me, i just want to see you all finally get the pay conditions, and benefits you so rightfully deserve. This is no easy feat, and all of you people seeking instant gratification, forget it! This may take a year to organize, and a yaer to ratify a contract. Who knows? It'd be nice if all of the stars aligned and things fell into place, but don't count on it. It'll take a lot of work, and a lot of you will need to help. Nobody is going to do it for you. the IBEW can assist and guide you, but the technicians are really the union, and they have to sign the cards and do a lot of the work. i've talked to a company that is interested in going union, and lots of my freinds are ready to sign cards as soon as I can get them one. This may be the last good oportunity, so we don't want to waste it.
JJ 8)
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I'm hoping this all works out for the techs. Some of you all know that I haven't worked as a tech in a couple of years. Organizing will have no direct benefit for me, deciding not to organize will not affect me negatively.
If all goes as I hope it will, I will never be affected. However, I have seen so many people who have "left" the business only to come back that I will always recognize the potential that I may once again be a contract tech. For that reason, and because I care about the future of the people in the business, I just want to see the destiny of the techs more under their own control.
Vote yes or no for a union. Do it for a good reason. If you don't want part of your paycheck to be controlled by people whose political affiliations are the opposite of yours, that is one reason to say no. If you truly believe that you and your colleagues are better off with or without a union, you should at least be given the chance to vote your conscience on this subject.
I jumped on this thread because I care, and because the outcome is too important to let it be decided by misinformation. It is too important to let it just go away without a vote. An honest vote, either for or against a union, is all I ask. Both sides have valid reasons for their positions. Those valid reasons should be weighed and tested in a democratic process.
My last word is this: You can be for or against unionizing and be honest, sincere, and fair about it - but nobody can be against a vote and claim any of those things.
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BeerCourt, you are da man! I'm in the same situation. I've been house for almost 9 years now, and am not directly impacted. But as I've said before"Never say never" If for a strange twist, I should once again decide to go on the road, I would like to have a better wage, and benefits similar to the house people whom I work side by side with. Sometimes even being called upon to supervise, because I'm more knowledgeable, or qualified. I think that should go without saying. If I supervise and or train you, I'm worth more and should be compensated for that. If you want it fair, you have to stand up for the right, nobody's going to just hand it to you.
JJ ;)
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It's my forum, i started this thread, and gee , It's been a little bit popular. if you don't see, why do you continue to post? Is it really " I don't agree with you, you should view things my way because I'm right and you're wrong" Well this is an open forum, and you're still welcome to post, even if you don't agree. some clarification seems to be necessary once again. The "Union" being proposed would be for the traveling contract technicians, and decon techs at commercial nuclear power plants. Not DOE, or D & D, or any kinky little cleanup or such. Just commercial! Got it? i see lots of postings about all of this money being made, supposedly being paid, I'm throwing the BS flag! As I've just said if someone in commercial was paying $45.00 an hour. My site would be a ghost town! i hope all of the readers can see through all of the smoke. there are a lot of readers, and i wish they would alll take abot 5 minutes, register and tellus your feelings on the issue. I will be talking to CJ and others from the IBEW the 26th through the 28th, and will see if they think there is enough interest to pursue a campaign. This will be rather costly to the IBEW, (that's where some of your dues money goes! To help others organize. You selfish little s**ts!) OOps did I say that? Yes I did, lots of you only think of yourselves, and that's wrong. together we can make it better for all The slugs and the heavy hitters. It's not the unions job to sort out the non productive, that's managements job. If they don't want to do it, get used to working with people who do les than you. I've accepeted that fact long ago. they blame the union for this too, thats where you get it from, you beleive them. They are lazier than the slugs you speak of, thats why they went into management in the first place. They don't like to work and get dirty! The unions job is to protect the workers rights! All workers rights. Get your facts straight. I've worked with non productive workers too, non union, so that makes me think we need a union, because being non union breeds laziness. It's all over the south! Come on get real!
JJ 8)
JJ can you tell me how if we rent a techs join the union it is going to help us? We depend upon Bartlett and the other companies to submit our names for outages. What impact do you think it would have on us working? What will prevent them from hiring non union techs?
We already have to put up with the b.s. of being turned away because we aren't returnees to a plant, whats going to keep them our a non union utility from turning away a union tech?
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Camella, Thats exactly what I am saying. Lets say that even if 50 percent of the techs sign a card and the others are non union. Then I would believe that the non union techs would get first picks. The other union techs who could not hold out or were borderline supporters of a union, but more supporters of their family or life style would bail leaving the left over union techs in the cold. I know the pro union will try to fluff this up, but most companies do not want to deal with a union, they will not tell you that but it is the truth. therefore the nonunion techs win. I say if you want to form a union go for it. I will then get to cherry pick my jobs if I want as nonunion, and laugh while I said I told you so to the others out in the cold. Hate to be cold blooded but I am keeping it real and hope that I can help the rent a techs from falling into a Union trap and make a good decision.
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Camella, Thats exactly what I am saying. Lets say that even if 50 percent of the techs sign a card and the others are non union. Then I would believe that the non union techs would get first picks. The other union techs who could not hold out or were borderline supporters of a union, but more supporters of their family or life style would bail leaving the left over union techs in the cold.
I know the pro union will try to fluff this up, but most companies do not want to deal with a union, they will not tell you that but it is the truth.
first point.... iffen half join a union 'n alla udder techs take da jobs da union techs woodent git a job. ok, let's go back to sum udder knowledge of the biz. prime consideration, there ain't enuff techs. so da non-union techs suk up alla first jobs. den the union techs get their demands met for higher wages. this has been posted before and is known as waiting for an offer you want. it is also a prime method of getting more cash for da road techs. so, what you are alluding to is dat doz nasty union techs will consistently get bigger bux because they don't take the first package offered. hmmmmmm.....sounds like a winner to me, and a praktise i use.
second point. bartlett uses union techs. i have worked for them in this capacity last millenium. since they are the 800 pound gorilla in da biz 'n they don't care, who are yew talking about? a rinky dink company? most of your major suppliers of skilled labor (not hp techs, ok?) ina nuke biz do it with union craft labor. of coors, not all but yer heavy hitters are. 'n da ones who come in when things are totally crunched (think underwater workers) are even more heavily weighted toward union shops. nuff said.
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JJ can you tell me how if we rent a techs join the union it is going to help us? We depend upon Bartlett and the other companies to submit our names for outages. What impact do you think it would have on us working? What will prevent them from hiring non union techs?
We already have to put up with the b.s. of being turned away because we aren't returnees to a plant, whats going to keep them our a non union utility from turning away a union tech?
Camella, I don't have all of the answers, but I'll tell you a few things I do know. You depend on Bartlett, corect? Which Bartlett? Bartlett Services or Bartlett Nuclear? They are fairly interchangeable, but one is union, and one is not. Now here at Brunswick, we don't have to hire through Bartlett. We can hire direct through Comensra (SP?) Most but not all of our retirees work through them. Lets do a little math here. Lets say the techs do choose to bargin collectively. This requires a vote of the population, with > 50% in favor of a union. OK so we get the right to bargin collectively, and we have eased the fear of reprocussions from the companies. As we try to put together a contract proposal, a few more people will get involved. Lots are fearfull of loosing their jobs, remove the threat, and a lot will participate. You still don't have to, but why wouldn't you? If you don't join you have no say. You still have the benefit, but you get it my way. This aint Burger King. Even in a right to work state CR3 has well over a 90% membership. Yeah you have a few "Cherry Pickers" like nukeman. (I'll address that later), but a good percentage will opt for the union when it becomes available.You depend on Bartlett to submitt your resume? Have you ever wondered why you didn't get accepted at a site you wanted to go to. Lots of times the utility never sees all of the resumes they would like to see. We sometimes have to ask for particular resumes, that never arrived. Ah the returnee curse! It impacted me earlier in my career. The union can neither kill nor cure this. I said that I feel the utility should be able to choose who they offer employment to first, and only go to the hirring hall to fill the slots they can't themselves. I understand, wanting returnees. They know your system a little bit, and the utility knows there preformance. Why take a chance on an unknown. Later in life, when I got good at remote monitoring, I got requested by utilities that I had never been to, because they heard about me through the grapevine. (very small industry) If you're good ,word gets out, and some utilities actually develope refferences, and check things out. Now as to the term "Cherry Picker" Back when Ii was a youth playing basketball(Peach Baskets) This was a derogatory name for someone who didn't play much deffense. They usually hung out around mid court and deppended on their teamates to get the ball back, and pass it to them for an easy layup. This sometimes worked if you had a strong team, but a lot of times it didn't because it was 5 on 4 when you might need the 5th man. The "Cherry Picker" might run up some impressive stats at the expense of his teamates. This is exactly the reason the 1500 attempt failed. You had "Cherry Pickers" cross your lines. If you would have all stuck together until EVERYONE settled, you would have succeeded. With or without the IBEW. I still don't understand who authorized a walkout, I don't even beleive there was a NLRB hearing. But do the math again. Say you had 150 techs at a site, and they all walked. The 30 or so house techs managed to keep things going, but prooduction fell to 50% for about 2 weeks. Relacement power I've heard in round figures is about a million / day. @ weeks at 50%, your out 7 million. Divide that by 150. You think there might be a little pressure to give the 150 the real pittance they were asking for? Do you think the other utilities would ask for everyone to settle if they all were being impacted? You bet! oversimplification i realize, but you should get the picture. Oh by the way, if you strike you don't get paid, or collect UC. So for the IBEW to let you go across coutry and incurr double expense would be very foolish. Why not just everyone stay home and collect UC until you get what you need. The State can't force you to travel, only seek suitable employment. Not enough money = unsuitable. Problem is too many people like nukeman! This is why there are agreements you sign to abide by the constitution, too many cherry pickers! Look back at some of the other posts, most was already adressed somewhere, there is a lot though. Hope I've answered you adequately. Oh there are agreement for utilities to use union help when available, effectively locking out non union bids if there is an agreement. I'm sure the IBEW will have their members try to include this in further negotiations.
JJ ;D
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Gee, I'm setting here this weekend waiting to start my Non-Union outage at a Non-Union plant and loving it! Love the weather here in Southport,NC. Oh, I'm sorry, that's your Non-Union plant isn't it........ ;D
That's correct, and I'm working at fixing that too. Not just laying there waiting for someone to do it for me! Oh get up and look out the window. It's raining! The weather aint so good! Oh BTW go to the Comfort Inn for the next 3 nights and meet with some of the IBEW reps out of DC that will be helping you get some rights. I'll be there too. I'll bet you didn't even click on the link I provided, just fired back on me. Too bad, might learn a little. I do everytime I read something. Some good, some bad. But I educate myself. Why don't you work Brunswick if you live in Southport?
JJ
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That's correct, and I'm working at fixing that too. Not just laying there waiting for someone to do it for me! Oh get up and look out the window. It's raining! The weather aint so good! Oh BTW go to the Comfort Inn for the next 3 nights and meet with some of the IBEW reps out of DC that will be helping you get some rights. I'll be there too. I'll bet you didn't even click on the link I provided, just fired back on me. Too bad, might learn a little. I do everytime I read something. Some good, some bad. But I educate myself. Why don't you work Brunswick if you live in Southport?
JJ
I'm here in Southport waiting to meet with anyone who's interested in finding out more about the IBEW. As for the weather, I left a snowstorm in Nebraska so I can't complain!
As far as whether or not a Union company can get work or if it will be priced out of the market, I ask you to look around the plants that you have been to. Are the in-house workers able to get contracts with good pay and beni's? Are the maintenance contractors able to get the outage work at many of these plants? Is it because contractors like Bechtel can hire Union for less? Hell no, they can get the qualified workers. That is the only concern of the utility and that concern will continue to be more difficult as the work force shrinks through retirement of older workers with little replacement coming out of the non-utility employers. I've attended several conferences with utility management and consultants that rail about the aging workforce in this industry. If you consider the impact of the aging workforce and the impact of new construction of nuclear plants (as soon as it gets here and I've been hearing the same rumors as everyone else for years) the qualified contract nuclear worker should have significant leverage. The question is how to best use that leverage. I personally believe that it is best utilized through collective bargaining. I believe that if enough contract techs stand together, the contract companies (Bartlett) and the utilities that have the actual need will be willing to up the pay and beni's to maintain that qualified workforce. I also believe that the IBEW's relationship with the Utilities (we represent workers in 2/3 of the existing commercial plants) will be helpful in getting the recognition of the Union contractors. Look at what has happened to the Union wages in the Lineworkers in the recent past. There is a critical shortage of Lineman and the increases that we are negotiating are way above market. In many areas, we are seeing not only increases in wages, but contributions to retirement packages that are at record highs. In the KC market, employers contribute 25% of wages into the Linemans retirement. That is to say, the Lineman earns his wages AND gets a 25% payment into his retirement account. This can be achieved because of the shortage and the collective bargaining process. Utilities and contractors know that they can't call a temp labor company for qualified lineman. The same is true in our field.
I read another thread about the decon contract at Comed. I don't know all the details, but I believe the concern is that IBEW Local 15 has an agreement with ComEd (Exelon now?) that all workers who come into the plant must be represented and the pay can't undercut that which IBEW has negotiated. Eric Bartlett participated in the discussion and said that the job would be Union and that as of Jan 26th they were "tweaking the contract". I'll bet that the pay for this job will be higher than most, and that Exelon will still be an extremely profitable company and Bartlett will likely show a profit on this job, too. It shows the power of having a place at the table when it comes to negotiations. Even if in this case, the representation is by proxy with Local 15 negotiting for workers it does not yet represent.
I welcome any questions or ideas on what changes you would like to see IF the IBEW were able to get an effective organizing campaign moving. I haven't worked as a road tech since 89 and I have been outside the fence since 99. However, I still believe that Contract RP Techs are more valuable than the typical compensation packages reflect and if it's the will of the workers to stand up and ask for more, I want to be part of that group.
CJ King
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There are obviously many people that are thorughly committed to making a union happen and many that are (for a variety of reasons) very set on not being a part of it. There are a lot of good reasons for us to organize and some very valid points that have been made against the idea. There is also a great deal of repetition of viewpoints here (some have repeated their own viewpoints ad nauseum) and I have purposely avoided repeating myself, but here I go anyway.
I am currently in a position that would not be included in a union, but I fully expect to be back in a position someday that would be. I am having a very hard time weighing the pros and cons because they are mostly conjecture. Would our pay go up? Probably. How much? Nobody knows. Would we lose some flexibility? Probably. How much? Nobody knows. Would our benefits increase? Most probably. How much? Well, you all know the answer. And that is the only answer that ANYONE knows. I personally find it difficult to make a firm commitment to unknowns. And please don't tell me it is up to us. If it was, we would all be making $100 an hour and all the perdiem we could eat. It would be up to people that most of don't know making NEGOTIATED (read: trade-off) agreements with utilities. Would we get something? Yes. Would it be enough to make the trade-off worthwhile? (Fill in answer here.)
The only way I am going to get fully behind any change is if I at least have a good idea what the other side of the change looks like. Please don't anyone try to tell me that they know what it will be like because you will only hurt your credibility. Is it worth the risk? Maybe, but nobody... there I go again. If you feel that things are so bad that they have to change and are willing to risk the cost, then by all means tell the people that you work for (and quoting one of my favorite philosophers) "That's all I can stands and I can't stands no more." I do not feel quite that way yet, but several people have told me in other topics that I get treated better (for whatever reason) than most rent-a-techs do (I am not sure that is true, but reading some of the posts here, it must be.)
BUT -- the biggest hurdle for me to get over is that this is the same organization that promised us (and I was there in the meetings and signed the card) that they would make this work, would not abandon us, would take care of the organization, and would do everything except part the Red Sea to make this dream come true. You can say 'This time will be different' but I want proof. And I am not foolish enough to believe that I can get that proof and therein lies the problem. Nothing that anyone has said here (and I have a lot of respect for some of the people that have made theire opinions known) can provide one ounce of assurance that we will not be discussing this again in another 5 or 10 years and saying this time it will be different. Call me a sceptic (I have been called much worse, many things that are true.)
Again, I am not anti-union and I am not saying no (I am one of the people voicing his opinion that has not voted in this poll) but neither am I saying yes. I think the IBEW has a lot of explaining to do and I have not heard any of it yet. Why did we get NO support last time? What happened to all the plans? Why is it different now? Can you offer any proof? Hopefully they are answering these questions in their meetings and have some solid reassurances, but until it happens, there is no way to prove it and until you can prove it, there is always going to be a decided lack of trust.
That's some catch that Catch-22. No?
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ive been both union and a road tech
and if i had not been represented by the ibew id be flat out on the street without pay or insurance
i became disabled in july last year and with all the dues ive paid the last 20 years came into play
i had disability insurance that was one of my negotiated benefits
so im for all of the bussiness to be union
too bad we dont have a co-op of sorts that is we all are part of a company and we are the stockholders
sounds to me like some company would realize this potential and monopolize on this
ive been part of a family of union brothers and sisters for a long time and would not trade it for anything
we all have the same goal to what would benefit us and our families the best
bartlett ge excelon entergy etc........sure do care for us
so why cant we all just get along!!!!!!
God Bless all
and the ibew
doctor mooooooo!!!!!!!
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In addition I did some more calculations comparing the 1990 work schedule to 2007 work schedule with adjustments for 3% raises. Note that I considered from previous calculation the positive and negative cash flows. See my calculations below:
(30wks)(72 hrs/wk) ($13.50/hr) = ($34,098)
(21wks)(72 hrs/wk) (x) = ($34,098) =>
X = $18.45
With the reduced outage time at 1990 pay standard, to make up for lost hours you would have to boost hourly wage to $18.45.
Now add in inflation for cost of living of 3% per year. Note this is a HP Tech 3.1 Senior. 5 year, 7 year, and NRRPT would be higher hourly rates.
Year HP Tech Pay
1990 $13.50
1991 $13.91
1992 $14.33
1993 $14.76
1994 $15.20
1995 $15.66
1996 $16.13
1997 $16.61
1998 $17.11
1999 $17.62
2000 $18.15
2001 $18.69
2002 $19.25
2003 $19.83
2004 $20.42
2005 $21.03
2006 $21.66
2007 $22.31
For example:
(30wks)(72 hrs/wk) ($22.31/hr) = ($50,454): Commercial HP Tech Work Year 1990
(21wks)(72 hrs/wk) (x) = ($50,454): Commercial HP Tech Work Year 2007
X = $27.30/hr: for a HP Tech 3.1 Senior (Most plants pay an additional $5 per hour completion bonus of current $22.50 non-NRRPT Tech=> $27.50/hr. If adjusted to the reduction of outage time, then the hourly would be $27.30 + $5.00 completion bonus.)
With all bonus money included:
$22.30 for Junior HP
$27.30 for 18.1 Senior HP
$32.30 for 3.1 Senior HP
$33.30 for 5 Year Senior HP
$34.30 for 7 Year Senior HP
$35.30 for NRRPT HP
$37.30 for HP Supervisor
$40.30 for ALARA HP
Remember for those who think this is high; this is without any benefits of a permanent employee.
Comments
There sure is alot of interest in extra positions for many companies at the same plants! I bet an increase far above the $25 per hour range gets those positions filled pretty darn quick.
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I'm wondering who is having problems staffing? We are fully staffed, at BNP, but not a lot of returnees! Any big money being offered yet?
JJ
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Hey JJ, do they all speak fluent english at brunswick?
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Hey JJ, do they all speak fluent english at brunswick?
fergehdabout ainglish.... yinz got moor'n too peeple dat speek pittsburghese?
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craps 7 Everyone speaks English. Some a little better than others, but they do OK. SloGlo, yes we have at least 2 people here that speak pittsburgese. Mah nue sooporvizor wares a Stillers shurt evry dae!
JJ ;)
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SloGlo, yes we have at least 2 people here that speak pittsburgese. Mah nue sooporvizor wares a Stillers shurt evry dae!
JJ ;)
wail, hail! yinz tale hymn 'go stillers!' fer me, 'k?
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as a note of interest read the recent events under Bartlett..
FYI
An interesting article in the Feb nuke news sheds some light on the demand for techs. In the article it is stated that in the next 5 years a +57% loss of techs will occur and 1000 techs are needed to fill the void. Under the partnering aspects, 100 grads will come out of tech schools by 2008, then about 100 annually from then on out.
So again, if some actions are not taken, within about 6 years there will be another glut in the tech market and cost will drop (your pay).
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We are doing our part to help this situation.
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An interesting article in the Feb nuke news sheds some light on the demand for techs. In the article it is stated that in the next 5 years a +57% loss of techs will occur and 1000 techs are needed to fill the void. Under the partnering aspects, 100 grads will come out of tech schools by 2008, then about 100 annually from then on out.
So again, if some actions are not taken, within about 6 years there will be another glut in the tech market and cost will drop (your pay).
I definitely agree with your comment...but are you saying that unionizing will solve the glut?
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I ain't sayin nuthin 8)
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Training new techs. Ok you pulled it out of me.
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as a note of interest read the recent events under Bartlett..
FYI
An interesting article in the Feb nuke news sheds some light on the demand for techs. In the article it is stated that in the next 5 years a +57% loss of techs will occur and 1000 techs are needed to fill the void. Under the partnering aspects, 100 grads will come out of tech schools by 2008, then about 100 annually from then on out.
So again, if some actions are not taken, within about 6 years there will be another glut in the tech market and cost will drop (your pay).
I attempted to research this article but its not available online. But I do have a question concerning the above information. If it is going to take 1000 techs to fill the void and only 100 per year will be coming out of school how can you say there will be a glut in 6 years? Seems to me that there would still be a shortage.
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jjordan..... lookey hear at watt eye found looking fer udder stuff.....
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30616FA3E540C748EDDAA0894D8494D81
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jjordan..... lookey hear at watt eye found looking fer udder stuff.....
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30616FA3E540C748EDDAA0894D8494D81
SloGlo, I actually paid 4.95 to read this blip from the times. Heck the local tv station WRDW Channel 12 out of Augusta GA did a better job of covering the strike. I actually shot the footage for their coverage as an amatuer photographer. I attempted to get the AP to pick up the story but was told that due to wire contraints they could not do it.
It's hard t believe that so much time has flown, 17 years???
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SloGlo, I actually paid 4.95 to read this blip from the times. Heck the local tv station WRDW Channel 12 out of Augusta GA did a better job of covering the strike. I actually shot the footage for their coverage as an amatuer photographer. I attempted to get the AP to pick up the story but was told that due to wire contraints they could not do it.
It's hard t believe that so much time has flown, 17 years???
Camella, was it an informative article? I was at Davis Besse when this happened.I don't remember that much, not much went on there. We didn't walk, because we were union then. was the article worth the money?
JJ
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I definitely agree with your comment...but are you saying that unionizing will solve the glut?
May not solve it entirely. But may be able to help control it better. I think there will be a glut sometime, but I don't follow the math here either.
JJ
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SloGlo, I actually paid 4.95 to read this blip from the times. Heck the local tv station WRDW Channel 12 out of Augusta GA did a better job of covering the strike. I actually shot the footage for their coverage as an amatuer photographer. I attempted to get the AP to pick up the story but was told that due to wire contraints they could not do it.
maybe tv stations don't save news articles on line. cood it be due to residuals? ennyweigh, i wuz at besse during da strike, in wuz calling every national news tv network for info. they all told me there wasn't any strike. they had no local stations at any nuke plant vicinity that had reported anything on the strike.
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Camella, was it an informative article? I was at Davis Besse when this happened.I don't remember that much, not much went on there. We didn't walk, because we were union then. was the article worth the money?
JJ
JJ, I would post the article but they want $600 per year to post an article which has less than 500 words.
Key information I saw was that there were 3,000 "itinerant" techs at that time and the I.B.E.W. was seeking recongnition for us.
IRM was quoted as saying the "majority of us showed up for work" and only 3 plants were mentioned, Crystal River, Turkey Point and Hatch 1 where 90% of the techs stayed home.
Of course no one said anything about it causing problems but that bigger jobs were being shuffled around and time would only tell.
This article is one of my chief complaints about the past strike, lack of publicity and media contacts. I was nothing more than a small town freelance journalist who had written less that 2 dozen articles but I managed to contact the A.P. and attempted to get news out and I did manage to get coverage on WRDW which is an Augusta television station.
I actually fielded calls at home in Barnwell from news sources on the West Coast that had no idea if people were really striking elsewhere.
(Please note after careful consideration I posted this. I have been careful through the years as I did not want to cause undo problems for my family. I hope you all will remember that I am responsible for myself and my own actions.)
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maybe tv stations don't save news articles on line. cood it be due to residuals? ennyweigh, i wuz at besse during da strike, in wuz calling every national news tv network for info. they all told me there wasn't any strike. they had no local stations at any nuke plant vicinity that had reported anything on the strike.
Hey, I'm sorry I wan't downing you. I appreciated the link. I was actually going after bigger fish - The Times. I should have been clear that I was disgusted by the lack of media coverage.
Peace, Camella
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Hey, I'm sorry I wan't downing you.=
no ofence taken. eye went back two sea iffen enny tv links where avaleible. alas. tanks fer watt yinz did bak ina day. ;)
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It's not ever going to happen, end of story!!!!
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It's not ever going to happen, end of story!!!!
So I guess there it is...no longer a need to talk about it, Remo says it's not going to happen, end of story!!!! We could have saved 24 pages of discussion!
Welcome back Remo, hope all is well.
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JJ, I would post the article but they want $600 per year to post an article which has less than 500 words.
Key information I saw was that there were 3,000 "itinerant" techs at that time and the I.B.E.W. was seeking recongnition for us.
IRM was quoted as saying the "majority of us showed up for work" and only 3 plants were mentioned, Crystal River, Turkey Point and Hatch 1 where 90% of the techs stayed home.
Of course no one said anything about it causing problems but that bigger jobs were being shuffled around and time would only tell.
This article is one of my chief complaints about the past strike, lack of publicity and media contacts. I was nothing more than a small town freelance journalist who had written less that 2 dozen articles but I managed to contact the A.P. and attempted to get news out and I did manage to get coverage on WRDW which is an Augusta television station.
I actually fielded calls at home in Barnwell from news sources on the West Coast that had no idea if people were really striking elsewhere.
(Please note after careful consideration I posted this. I have been careful through the years as I did not want to cause undo problems for my family. I hope you all will remember that I am responsible for myself and my own actions.)
Thanks camella,
You probably saved me a little money! This affected me as it did all of you, and i still remember! I still can't figure out who or why a walkout was initiated. that's not the IBEW's style. At least not now. maybe because it was a different regiem. I know right now, that a walkout would be the last resort, and probably would never happen. I can't seem to find out what happend to all of the cards we signed, and was there ever a hearing in front of the NLRB? I appreciate all of your posts, and you candor. I as well as you take full responsability for my actions and posts. There are few that will let their identity be known to the masses. Sometimes I don't always agree with you, or RDTroja, ect. But I especially respect your or their difference of opinions, when they post by name! If we all agree on everything, then I guess this forum would be unneccessary.Well I see the nay sayers are active again! Never say never Remo.
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my info was from Nuke News 02/07 Training and Education pp36, more training providers will come on line and the output of techs is not linear its almost logrithmic. That 100 number is by the end of 2008. So 1/10 of the demand is fulfilled in one year-its not 100 per year but its 100 the first year of a new program that is expected to grow rapidly. The following year should be around 150, and so that in 5 years 200 a year could be readily produced. There are 5 colleges now starting up. That is about 8 colleges nationally that will be turning out techs. I am starting RCT training as well as several other providers and so on....
This is an exact duplication of past events that occurred in the mid-80s. By 1991 tech pay was at its lowest, and the number available techs was at its highest.
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I hear Ya dude! Does anyone else?
JJ 8)
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as a note of interest read the recent events under Bartlett..
FYI
An interesting article in the Feb nuke news sheds some light on the demand for techs. In the article it is stated that in the next 5 years a +57% loss of techs will occur and 1000 techs are needed to fill the void. Under the partnering aspects, 100 grads will come out of tech schools by 2008, then about 100 annually from then on out.
So again, if some actions are not taken, within about 6 years there will be another glut in the tech market and cost will drop (your pay).
I don't get this math. Even if you're figuring 200 new techs per year, you must assume no future retirements. The average age in the utility industry is 53. (this was reported by NEI at a conference last winter). So even as the new techs enter the field, current EE's continue to retire. More importantly, the point that I think needs to be made is that the wages will only increase if there is both a shortage and a demand from the workers. The shortage is a known part of the equation, but the demand for increases by the workers is not. I believe this is where a Union can help. If you look at what has happened with Union Lineman's wages in the last five years, you will see a huge increase over typical workforce increases. This is because there is a shortage and there is a concerted effort to demand increases.
I know there are many bad feelings from the Local 1500 fiasco back in the 90's. I don't know everything that happened back then. My impression is that the Local attempted to run a campaign that was both understaffed and untrained in how to run a campaign with nationwide consequences. At the time, I was a recent hire by the utility (OPPD at Ft Calhoun). I now work directly for the International and would welcome any e-mails on what went wrong with the 1500 campaign. I would like them whether you are interested in organizing or done for life with the Union. I have my own "lessons learned " file even in this job. Please feel free to e-mail me any critiques on what should be done differently. I will also get any information the International may have on the campaign.
IBEW has a presence in 2/3 of the nuclear plants in the US. We have very active campaigns currently ongoing at 6 sites. I've moved down to Brunswick for the next few months to coordinate activities in the Carolinas. I believe that all workers benefit from being a Unino member. The ones that benefit most are the ones that actively participate and hold thier Union accountable. It's what made me a member. I also have stated many times that contract techs are not keeping up (pay and beni wise) with the rest of the industry. If you fell this is true, I would like to know what you see as the options for addressing this issue.
CJ
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I will go with Remo and Batman End of story, Lucky this was not paper or we would have killed unneccesarily some trees. I do not want to use my name or the union guys will send out their minions and punish me by breaking my knees, So i Say to this no trees no knees, no union. Or as the Diceman used to say end of &@*^ story!!
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so who can retire from road tech benefits??? did we miss something - utilities will start their own apprentice program outside of this adding even more to the mix. Don't forget the RCT crossover which will add more techs- 2012 most of DOE clean up is about over with by then.
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I will go with Remo and Batman End of story, Lucky this was not paper or we would have killed unneccesarily some trees. I do not want to use my name or the union guys will send out their minions and punish me by breaking my knees, So i Say to this no trees no knees, no union. Or as the Diceman used to say end of &@*^ story!!
I was being a bit sarcastic. I am not in favor but I am open minded and keeping up with this post. Me being against doesn't mean I can not be persuaded. I just have not seen any compelling arguements to make me change my mind as of yet.
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That 100 number is by the end of 2008. So 1/10 of the demand is fulfilled in one year-its not 100 per year but its 100 the first year of a new program that is expected to grow rapidly. The following year should be around 150, and so that in 5 years 200 a year could be readily produced. There are 5 colleges now starting up. That is about 8 colleges nationally that will be turning out techs. I am starting RCT training as well as several other providers and so on....
This is an exact duplication of past events that occurred in the mid-80s. By 1991 tech pay was at its lowest, and the number available techs was at its highest.
Not an exact duplication. New construction was basically done in 1991, so the construction crews were all rolling into outage and house competition.
IF (yup, it's that huge two-letter word again) the number of plants does not change (or even worse we lose a '69 model or two; Oyster Creek is still in a battle) by 2011 then we will not be as understaffed. But we should know by the end of next year which new plants will be built over the next few years.
There may be more RCTs cross over to commercial nukes. Didn't the government say it will be done by 2013? Surely it won't run long...
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ok its not an exact science like flux mapping- but close enuff for govment werk. rates will stay the same with changes made to accomodate cost of living etc.
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AlphaDude is correct I think about 600 DOE Techs will come in in the next 5 years. I have already seen some coming in since, Fernald, Rocky Flats, Mound are about closed and there has been a big cut in Oak Ridge. A 200 I guess have come in the last few years. I doubt these would want a union. Seeing how they worked at the plants they are from.
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Everyone on this site would agree on one thing. We all have different opinion about unions. That's were the companies have the advantage. They have a ruler. Who tell them the way it is. That strength. A union would not fix everything but would give you a voice. But a union would only be a strong as its members. If you had a bad experience with a UNION then there member’s voices out ruled you. A union is for all not for one. So when I read about a certain person who had a bad experience. I feel bad for that one person who might have gotten a bad beat. But I'm humbled by the fact that many others who are protected and have a good paying job because of the union. A union is not a perfect thing. I admitted that it’s a work in progress. But its better then what a contractor’s have now. When you come to Clinton you are Union. You are one of us. We are one of you. I would like to see our deal that we have for are contractor work force go nation wide. With Fed per Diem rates paid at the maximum level. Bonuses protected. Safety equipment provided and work rules in forced. Vacation and holiday paid off or at a premium. It could happen. Would everyone be happy? Sadly No. But those people could go to management. This could be a win for RP technician’s nation wide. It starts with a need, then a want and then hard work. I'm willing to help. Do you want the help is the question? Is there a need or a want?
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you are describing local conditions. a few miles down the road the weather changes
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AS we have no union at this point, we are stuck with what bartlett wants........is that what we want? I don't think so.......how about a graduated pay scale? say a .50cent raise for every 1000 hours worked (Don't tell me that would to hard to track, some resumes for certain utilty's already have the hours worked in the left hand column)
how about a standard training program, you would get paid for continuing training, (not stuck in a corner with 5 procedure books for 10 tech's) you think INPo and the NRC would like to standardize the training, rather than a Jr Hp stuck in a corner reading a procedure book and self study.
these are not outlandish requests, they would seem to be more of a requirement.....
the utilties and Bartlett are ducking their responsibilties for proper training.......
Since when did we start to have to take meter reading tests?
Thats a sad sign, that we need meter reading tests, esp. when you want a pay raise....
"Yea, I want a pay raise, because I passed the meter reading test.........." Tis sad....
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I am happy how it is ,, but that is me.
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I would ask for a training and apprentice program, Retirement by points, 401k matching. Decon classification, paid medical, Travel in and out pay. Safety equipment paid. Eye medical paid. Alara incentives.
Paid vacation 2.5 days vacation for every month of work and yearly dues or pay as you go. What would you guys like to see in a contract?
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eye medical paid and alara incentives? the issue and topic is not about writing a contract, it's about creating a national local. oh, by the way, it would be for tech's that are not a member of the IBEW already.
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No senority or other lists, freedom to choose where your resume is submitted.
Less redundant testing, ie take NUE once pass with 80% or above, never have to take again as long as you are in field.
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Ahhh what a difference a little time makes!!! :P A lot of the wishes that have been psoted are very possible. There are contract companies that would be happy to sign agreements. the IBEW is having a national convention in Vegas at the end of the month. It would be really nice if we could tell them that the contractors would like to start an organizing campaign. ;)
JJ
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Just two cents worth, but what makes people think that things are any different? Age dont change people from what they think. (especially when it comes to money and power) I know several folks in the IBEW here locally and I would have to say no thanks. They dont garuntee anything, they dont pay very well, and what happens when there is no work? Just like with any other union it depends on contracts. Many of yall now have the choice, but leave it to a union to make that for you? Thats like asking the government to manage your social screwity. No thanks. Been in a couple in my early years, >:(.
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No senority or other lists, freedom to choose where your resume is submitted.
Less redundant testing, ie take NUE once pass with 80% or above, never have to take again as long as you are in field.
Are you serious?
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If Im not mistaken isnt a union based on the senority rule? (only the senior unionees get free coffee, everyone else must pay 10% more dues to get free coffee). STRIKE!!!!
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Great points. Another question, wouldnt a union make the pay and per-d flat across the board? From east to west they will pretty much stay the same?
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As said a union is not a perfect thing........
But without a formal training/apprenticeship program we are migrating towards going to meter reading tests, (and some hp's don't do so well on them?).....uh was that 40 mr/hr or 40 R/hr......doh.....
it's in our interest, the NRC's interest, and the utilities interest to make sure we have it right.......the utilities skate out on costs by dumping training onto Bartlett and I don't see Bartlett helping much........well As far as Linn State Tech.......who is going to go to college for two years and sign up to be a road tech with all it's benefits.....for the time spent in college you would expect a house job.......
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Great points. Another question, wouldnt a union make the pay and per-d flat across the board? From east to west they will pretty much stay the same?
No. No other trade does this. There doesn't seem to be a reason to do it for HP's. Why would you want the same per diem at Palo Verde that they are poying at Hatch? If they standardize it, it will be set at the lowest rate for everybody.
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Does anyone know how much these guys want for dues? I looked at their website and couldn't find it anywhere. I wonder if anyone would really agree to send their picture ID to these folks? :-\
What's that old saying , something about suckers being born every minute :o
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What's that old saying , something about suckers being born every minute :o
PT Barnum underestimated the American public... there are several born every minute.
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I believe that it is an attempt to form a union. Obviously we are not at this time unionized. I believe they are trying to generate enough interest for a vote, they have not asked for any funds and the personal info. seems to be for a record of interested parties and a means of communication with us techs.
It looks to me that it is in the very early stages and I am not going to discount them until we see what the real story is. If the information on the site is really what they are trying to do, I would listen to them before the IBEW any day. Maybe we should just stay tuned.
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that's an interesting name..."Union Leadership"
Sure, send your money to an anonymous web site.....apparently in Ukraine. Sounds legit to me. ;)
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So are you saying that you were unable to get a good paying job based on your own qualification and abilities, you needed a union to do that?
No I'm saying you would be protected from the B.S.
The union is not a perfect thing, a work in progress! So how many years have they been around? The Nation Labor Union was formed in 1866, the Knights of Labor in 1869 and the American Federation of Labor in 1886. How many more years are the unions going to need to get it right?
I’m sorry, but the ONLY advantage to the contractors at Clinton when they are forced to join the union to work there is a little extra pay. No other benefits are offered and no representation. But the union is more than happy to reach into your pocket for their dues.
Wrong you are not force to join anything. You could opt out. You would still pay a fee. You are represented. You get to pick your own stewards and you have in put to the new contract
The union will only take away your ability to make decisions on your own, where you will and when you will work. As I have stated several time before, no thanks. I’ve been able to take care of myself, my family and my future without the interference of a union, and if I am force to join a union to do my current job, I’ll look elsewhere for a profession.
Wrong again. The only 3 decision you can't make is the date you get laid off, your day off & if you get night shift or day shift. The rest is up to you.
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??? Ok from what I saw, that whole Ukraine thing is just a web host for this union web site. But who are these guys? Give us names >:(. This forum is full of very "intelligent" (spell check) folks who dont just throw thier money at anything (well almost anything ???) We need more info. Dont just tell us to email you with questions, give it to us straight.
1. Who are you
2. Where is the home office going to be (Moms basement doesnt count)
3. How much more of my money is going to be taken to fund you
4. How much say do I have in the goings on in this organization
5. Votes
6. If I am laid off are you going to be there for me and my family
7. Can we count on you to get us regular stedy work
These are just a few.
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Yah I saw the pay scale, it is nice. But again give us the basics. We are Nukewokers not cavemen. (uh yah I think thats right) ???
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Doesn't everyone get double time on Sundays??
Wow, you guys are missing out....
You need to form a union... :P
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I can’t help but think it’s a scam. Some ‘old HP’ is thinking he can get a contract at a nuclear plant if he can get some HP’s to hold out… Remind you of anyone?
These people would say who they are if they were a legitimate organization.
Can you imagine NukeWorker being successful if I hid our identity?
I think all of the bashing is a bit premature.
I am remaining a skeptic, but I am willing to reserve opinion until it unfolds instead of jumping all over someone that may just have our best interests in mind. It would take HUGE Kahonies to take the lead in a movement like this...so I will just wait and see what the deal really is.
By the way...I did a search for the IP address on the following.
http://www.selfseo.com/find_ip_address_of_a_website.php (http://www.selfseo.com/find_ip_address_of_a_website.php)
It came back as a USA address. Just FYI.
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Us liberals like to keep our Democrat's pockets full, so they can get us all those extra bennies.......
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From January 1, 1993 through June 30 2006, the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers contributed a total of $3.727 million to Illinois candidates for statewide and legislative office
That works out to $324,086.96 per year. The next things to know would be 1. To how many candidates?
2. How many IBEW members are there in Illinois for each year? 3. Is this money given through a PAC or straight from the IBEW treasury? It does make a difference. My local (IUOE) has a PAC that is totally voluntary that contributions are made from.
As far as them giving to candidates (better than calling them names, don't you think?) they probably don't have any money to do that with yet do they?
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We are not accepting anything from anybody at this point...
We will be releasing the information...
We are still working ..."
"We" being the complete non-professional who spent $25 to put together a page and the virtual female companion he downloaded to his parent's computer?
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I found this very interesting web site the other day.It was about how we could better our wages,benefits,per diem.
Everybody should take a look at this.It was very intriging.
Moderator note: Web Site link removed to disassociate this site from theirs.
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I found this very interesting web site the other day.It was about how we could better our wages,benefits,per diem.
Everybody should take a look at this.It was very intriging.
I prefer to better my wages through performance based raises and not being controlled by a third party that gets a portion of my money. There are already enough hands in my pocket, why should I invite another to take my money?
Isn't there a huge thread addressing union vs non-union. Can this be merged with that?
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Isn't there a huge thread addressing union vs non-union. Can this be merged with that?
Jason you are correct, merge complete 8)
I found this very interesting web site the other day.It was about how we could better our wages,benefits,per diem.
Everybody should take a look at this.It was very intriging.
RadBastard, check out some previous posts in this thread regarding the npua.
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Looking at the NPUA website leaves me a little uneasy......
first who is this "we"
second ...it will not be a self sustaining idea if "we " forgets about a viable training and apprenticeship program.....
third EPRI, INPO, the NRC and the utilties are skating on their responsiblties on training a contractor apprentice workforce.......throwing deconners in a corner to read procedures, and then having to implement meter reading ability tests does not make a very viable training program........well that said.....thats the direction we are currently heading, its a broken down system being made to work....to meet the letter of the law(barely)......
as far as wages/benefits go, a apprenticeship program has to addressed, otherwise you will have people wanting a raise because they aced the meter reading test...
to be only concerned about who is worried about who is reaching into their paycheck is very naive and self centered.........(as far as who is reaching in there now, anyone of a few bean counters at some investment group)if they can't make the profits they want, who is to stop them from selling the group to "another investment group"
anyway the NPUA has some good ideas however from what the website says sofar.....it will be poorly implemented......
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at this point who cares?
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I noticed some signs posted around the DOE Reservation in Oak Ridge yesterday (heard they were up Saturday) trying to organize the RADCON/HPs into the IBEW.
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Thats is laughable. They will fail worse here than they did with Progress Energy. No one I know wants a union here.
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are we talking rascals and scoundrels???
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Here is a story of Union Decertification, Be careful what you wish for. This woman's home was destroyed after she voted in good faith to decertify her union. I guess the Union cronies who were no longer getting checks had her whacked.
By the way this union was decertified. I just wish my grandfather could have realized this was the answer to the union he belonged to.
The Monroe County (TN) home of a woman who crossed a picket line at Maremont Exhaust Products this year was vandalized Tuesday, causing damages totaling $20,000 to $30,000.
The company called it an "act of domestic terrorism." According to a Monroe County Sheriff's Department incident report, the vandalism was probably related to an eight-month strike at Maremont in Loudon County.
The vandalized home belongs to Della Thomas, who crossed the picket line and backed the dissolving of International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, Local 2545. In October, the National Labor Relations Board effectively dissolved the union after workers and strikers voted 223 to 141 to decertify the union.
The article can be read here. http://theunionnews.blogspot.com/2007_09_29_archive.html
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I didn't see the name of the woman you mentioned in the link you gave but I will agree that you are guessing with the conjecture in your post. Lumping all unions into one group as far as behavior would be just as narrow-minded as blaming all the worlds ills on liberals & democrats or doing the same in regards to republicans.
As a Union member I would be very ashamed if any of your allegations are true and I'm not so naive as to think that they aren't at least partially true. However, just as I'm sure you wouldn't want to be labeled as a narrow-minded slacker by someone who has met one tech who fit that label I don't think the majority of Union members are deserving of the broad brush you've painted with once again.
I've been privileged to meet many road techs over the years who were hard workers, knew their job and worked it with pride. I've also known the same type of people from the construction trades and who were my co-workers that I can say the same about. As long as people are involved you'll have good & bad and you can't necessarily tell who is which just by their political affiliation, union membership, or any other label you pick.
Back on topic, have there been any further rumblings from any national Union towards the road tech community? I don't think this issue is dead yet. However, I will admit up front that my own views might taint my take on it.
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I have worked outages and have to say I was impressed with the Union workers there.
I have worked DOE and have been impressed with about 50 percent of the workers. The other half and the demoralization of the workers who want to do right is the reason I do not want an HP union permanently at any place or for that matter or any permanent worker union anywhere. We are a global economy and we can no longer compete if slackers are protected, I may even go for unions with no seniority. The DOE slackers are the ones that have been there and know they can not be layed off. If they layed off slackers regardless of years that may lets us compete. That goes for teacher unions too. Fire the slackers no tenure. Here is something else from theMaremont Union that was decertified. Since this is a Reward poster written By the president of the Company with his name I think this covers fair use.
$25,000 REWARD
*The company is the sole and final arbiter of the determination as to any reward paid to any claimant.
To our Community:
We need your help. Last week the home of one our valued employees was
broken into, and extensively and savagely vandalized. This is yet another
offensive act that joins a long list of hideous misdeeds that have been
inflicted on our employees and our suppliers. We believe that this act of
violence is related to the Union Strike that took place earlier this year at
Maremont and was perpetrated by and condoned by Union Members.
These incidents have occurred in our community and surrounding
communities since the Machinists Union Local 2545 went out on strike
These incidents include:
• Shots fired by a sniper into a home with people sleeping in it.
• Suspicious fire at a home
• Barn burned to the ground by an arsonist
• Car burned and totally destroyed by an arsonist while parked at
an employee’s home
• Truck burned and totally destroyed by an arsonist while parked at
an employee’s home
• Extreme vandalism to a home
• Bomb threat at our plant
• Transformer at our plant shot out by a sniper
• Multiple vehicle windows shot out by a sniper
• And others too numerous to list
The people of Maremont do not plan to succumb to individuals who are
willing to assume they are above the law and above the rules of our
society; individuals who are thugs and hoodlums pretending to be good
citizens. We are committed to continuing to pursue all legal means to bring
the people responsible for these crimes to justice. We are working with
law enforcement agencies at the Federal, State, and Local levels to solve
these crimes. In order to assist the law enforcement agencies we are
offering a reward of $25,000* for information leading to the arrest and
conviction of those responsible for these serious incidents. To make a
confidential report, please call the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation’s
toll free tip line (800) TBI-FIND.
These continued acts of terrorism affect not only Maremont, our
employees, our suppliers, but their families, neighbors, and the community as
a whole. Our community cannot condone these rampant acts of violence.
People and companies looking to locate in this area are also watching this
situation and how it is handled before deciding if they will locate here.
This continued violence has given a black eye to the City and County of
Loudon, and the surrounding areas. We are asking for your help in assisting
the law enforcement agencies in finding the people who are causing the
problems and bringing them to justice.
Kenneth Banks
Owner of Maremont
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I: I
B: Block
E: every
W: Walkway
why not the OCAW?
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I too am of the belief that the only benefit a union will offer is to protect those that are lazy, incompetent, ignorant or all the above. One should have to compete and succeed based on their own merits and not be able to hide behind a union flag.
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I too am of the belief that the only benefit a union will offer is to protect those that are lazy, incompetent, ignorant or all the above. One should have to compete and succeed based on their own merits and not be able to hide behind a union flag.
Oh, a Union would probably offer reasonably priced Health Insurance a decent retirement plan and a few other good bennies, but you're right, it would probably serve to protect the no-loads as well as the good workers.
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And how would that make anything even the slightest bit different from the way things are now?
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that would be the part about affordable health insurance and a decent retirement plan. the union people I know have these things, very few of the contract techs do.
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Maybe I should just butt-out of this one, but I'm not going to ;D I honestly believe that once upon a time, unions had their purpose. But in modern day and times, they only serve to make the American work force uncompetitive, and largely allow small groups of people to line their pockets while taking advantage of their members.
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i think you just described the american business model
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ok this dead horse is not stinking enuff
there are not enough rent a techs to support a national union. house techs have their unions or agreements of employment-dont compare them to rent a techs - the 2000-3000 or so rent a techs dont make enough money to support a full time union and you have to keep the money flowing to make it work. in general unions are a business and have to operate like one. they sign contracts just like any other business and have to deliver. they need money to operate and they need paid employees to run the business.
so which one of you renters is going to pay monthly dues to stay afloat in the union-most are addicted to unemployment and a few even hit the welfare line when hunger sets in.
if you want it-all you have to do is refuse work for one year- you will get the wage you want without the union.
as any great organizer knows it take guts and stamina to be in a union and make it work-i don't see that in most techs.
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ok lets all go to Vegas for a convention on feb 14-21 2008 .We can stay at the MGM and use the hall. We will set up a mebership drive and start this off. We can vote on officers to be our voice and have real union reps come vist us to help us get started. enough talk.
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New to the biz, trying to figure things out.
Found the Npua website, sounds strange.
Sounds like a secret society for only those in the know. I wonder how many techs like me have no information. There was an informational meeting, but no information on the website on who is running it, what they will do, etc.
What is there (as I understand all the information given), says that they will negotiate contracts with utilities and then charge a monthly "fee" for having my resume submitted to the plants. No guarantees that I will get into the place I want to work. Sounds like what the contract companies are already doing without charging.
What happens when there are too many techs, an not enough jobs? I am still paying every month whether I work or not. Seems pricy to me. May get a small amount of pay raise when I work, but still pay when I don't (which when talking with more senior techs, may only be 4 to 5 months a year, if lucky).
I am trying to support a family, just like everyone else. As there is no forum for asking questions on that website, I turn to the more experienced people on this site for straight forward answers (if there are any). As I was told by folks who went through this same deal with the IBEW many years ago, It sounds like the same deal, a few will profit from the many.
Just a simple tech trying to figure out the blitz that is coming this spring.
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There are more techs than jobs, they all dont want to work at one time so it is a feast and famine situation. (and one reason unions fail-too few workers with low motivation and seasonal demand) There are about 3000 techs total down from 5000 in the early 90s. At peak season there are about 1800 jobs goin on at one time for a period of about 8 weeks then it follows normal distribution. Dont get involved with any pay for work service. Call and keep calling the rent a tech companies. Get as many qualifications as you can other than nuclear. Dont depend on power plants to feed you cause its not steady work and every few years the plants cycle so that there are very few outages and only the "secret society of the RAT" get a job. In the very near future as plants come on line things will change some. But that is 5 years away.
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I have a little question here, ??? Do we really want the next generation of nuke workers (remember these are our kids we're talkin about) to go to work and learn that as long as they stay with a union everything will be alright? Or do we want to teach them that hard work and knowing your craft will always keep you employeed and getting paid.
I agree that unions had thier place in history to bring about real change in the work environment, but those days are long gone. We now have OSHA, EPA, ANSI, and a whole slew of organizations that ensure we are working in for the most part safe and good conditions. Most folks on this site make 50,000 a year plus and alot make over 6 figs, so why do we want to unionize when we have it so well? If you dont have insurance because you are a rent-a-tech then get some, remember you chose to work at that job its your responsibility. Stop worrying about a union and just work, make your money and retire fat and happy.
Sorry for the rant.
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watt plans due yinz think are in da pipeline fer creating new nuke workers iffen unions ain't used? iffen da plants dat have dere col go according two schedule, da industry shud be looking fer about 4000 skilled nukleer grade workers in 10 years. where ya gonna git 'em?
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ARC is coming back and Rad Services ........... there will always be someone out of the navy who will wnat a job . I was Braidwood in 91 we had a FOB that faxed a copy of his 1st check back to his ship mates to prove he was making the money he said he was.
good luck to all. Stick with me and you make a grand a week! LOL
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watt plans due yinz think are in da pipeline fer creating new nuke workers iffen unions ain't used? iffen da plants dat have dere col go according two schedule, da industry shud be looking fer about 4000 skilled nukleer grade workers in 10 years. where ya gonna git 'em?
I´ve heard about four new RP tech training programs firing up within the past two years...and since two of them are with 50 miles of the house, I assume there are more that I haven´t heard of. I think we are going to see a glut of fresh bodies coming into the industry and driving wages back down. Based on that I have advised acquaintances looking at the industry to get in now...or forget about it...
If a union is going to happen (and I´m not advocating one way or the other), I would think now is the time.
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??? alphadude I couldnt disagree with you more. The socialist dogma that you are talking about maybe happening over in Europe, China and other parts of the world where there are no ways for the underclass to make it. Here in America though I have yet to see any growing gap in income in all my years of livin. I have seen prices go up because of the governments (all branches) nonsensical policies dealing with corn and ethanol.
The nuclear industry has historically paid its workers (whether it be the owners, salaried, hourly) very well. I have noticed that most folks are never satisfied with income and always think they should be paid what the guy above him is making (isnt that what the revolution in Russia was all about).
This present administration has nothing to do with wages. The owners of the power plants have everything to do with wages, and from what I can see if you get in work hard and prove yourself you can make a very comfortable life for yourself.
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The policies of the last 8 years have taken away most middle class buying power, protection and rights and given the advantage to plant owners and the upper class.
Do you have a reference and supporting data for this information? (Preferably from a neutral source.)
Here is an interesting (albeit heavily biased) website:
http://www.unionfacts.com/ (http://www.unionfacts.com/)
- Greg
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So if you had a union package as in the craft. Would per diem go away and travel pay?
Are you willing to give that up? Also Just because a plant may have a union how would this affect the rad Techs? As of right now I do not know of Company That Hires HPT's that has signed and agreement to pay HPT's a union scale . It is not the power plants you deal with. It would be the company who hires HPT's. So where do you start to bargin with ?
and if there is 5000 HPT's how do you get all of them to agree to this?
I agree it would be nice but how do we get good packages? and how would you get to go to work? Call out list? go by rank what ?
It is like today you call for the plant you want to go to but it has been staffed for the spring since nov.Now you go to plant 'B" for 17 days and off untill aug.
Or a cleanup job comes so the hall says you go there. Do to the fact your name comes up on the list. how many hours do you need to work a year to get medical for the entire year? Retirement how much go's into that. How Much if will the company match?
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So if you had a union package as in the craft. Would per diem go away and travel pay?
Are you willing to give that up? Also Just because a plant may have a union how would this affect the rad Techs? As of right now I do not know of Company That Hires HPT's that has signed and agreement to pay HPT's a union scale . It is not the power plants you deal with. It would be the company who hires HPT's. So where do you start to bargin with ?
and if there is 5000 HPT's how do you get all of them to agree to this?
I agree it would be nice but how do we get good packages? and how would you get to go to work? Call out list? go by rank what ?
It is like today you call for the plant you want to go to but it has been staffed for the spring since nov.Now you go to plant 'B" for 17 days and off untill aug.
Or a cleanup job comes so the hall says you go there. Do to the fact your name comes up on the list. how many hours do you need to work a year to get medical for the entire year? Retirement how much go's into that. How Much if will the company match?
Additionally, how would employment openings & rosters work in the right-to-work states? (It looks like Region 2 in particular has several plants in right-to-work states...)
- Greg
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You guys just need to stick with the system you have. Pay $900 - $100 a month for medical insurance for the half year that you are laid-off, and just over half that for the other half year. Screw seniority and lists and all that crap, just keep getting job preference by being the site coordinator's drinking buddy or the one who called when an opening came up. Keep screwing each other and convincing yourselves that the most and the best jobs are really going to the best techs.
All you guys who think that the HP tech business is going to reward you for being good at your job and faithful employees -- you keep dreaming. The truth is that there are some companies who run that way. The trick is in getting a job with them.
It is true that not everybody needs a union. Unfortunately a lot of you do - even if you are a good tech and a hard worker. It seems that there is no "up" for rent-a-techs other than "out". Leave this squabble for those who are left behind.
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Hey the same system works when you become a house person. House people going from plant to plant keeping their supervision titles by knowing their drinking buddies. Do ya think being a hardworking housetech gets rewarded? Maybe by getting more tasks that the "senior" techs dont want. Lets see if you are a new hardworking house tech ya still get what the seniority list gives you, backshift, working xmas, and taking your vacation after all the "seniors" have turn their requests in. Im sure there is no "backstabbing" going on at your company. If you think there isnt then you better keep "dreaming". Just because your house (and a moderator) doesnt mean you can bad mouth the rent a techs. Nothing wrong being a housetech, but its not that great an accomplishment . (it doesnt make you any smarter or better)
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I'll take faulty assumptions for 800, Alex.
I haven't been a house HP for 10 years. I have never been a union HP (unless you count the 3 outages at Salem/ Hope Creek). Being nonunion wasn't the best thing we had going for us. We worked for a utility that boldly admitted that they gave us good pay and benefits so that we would not join a union. That is the same thing as admitting that the existence of unions was the only reason why we got what we did. We had all the benefits of the union without having to be members.
I am not union now, and neither are my employees.
We are the lucky ones. We work for a company that values us. So, being good, loyal, competent, and professional gets us all far better treatment than when we were roadie HP's. However, those things are all valued by our customers and our company. If we were just a bunch of warm bodies who could "sit at a control point, knitting a scarf" we'd be in the same swamp with all the others.
You are right, though. Being a house tech or a moderator are not the things that make me smarter. I eat a lot of tuna and salmon - brain food.
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You are right, though. Being a house tech or a moderator are not the things that make me smarter. I eat a lot of tuna and salmon - brain food.
Tsk Tsk all of that mercury... :)
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If your not a roadie and not house what are ya? In two sentences are less.
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This might surprise you, but a lot of us are management types, and a lot work for other than utilities or roadtech companies.
My actual title is Northeast Region and Nuclear Services Operations Manager for Global Safety Sources, Inc.
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I´ve heard about four new RP tech training programs firing up within the past two years...and since two of them are with 50 miles of the house, I assume there are more that I haven´t heard of.
since they ain't listed here under training, perhaps yinz should start a thred listing them.
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I will take faulty assumption for a 1000, Alex. I take it your job is full time with one company thats what I consider "House", doesnt mean you have to work for a utility. Just because you didnt do anything great in the contracting world you dont have to be bitter about it and then chat like your doing something great because ya took your picture with a tie. I also see that you were an "safety engineer" but I didnt quite catch the college you went to (online perhaps, counting navy time or just self proclaimed engineer). And its hard to believe but the company Ive been working for has rewarded me with diffent job opportunities. (I hope because of my hard work ) Its alright for you to debate the rent a tech/union but please dont downgrade us we know our place and dont tell us what to do, alot of us have done quite without your long winded advice.
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I´ve heard about four new RP tech training programs firing up within the past two years...and since two of them are with 50 miles of the house, I assume there are more that I haven´t heard of.
SloGlo, for your info, Palo Verde is sponsering a course through Estrella Mountain Community College for RP Techs. Entergy is looking through a College in Missouri for recruioting purposes. All without Union help. Get in the game.....boy!!
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I WILL TAKE FAULTY ASSUMPTION FOR THE DAILY DOUBLE ALEX!!!!! Unions were fo ryesteryear... nevermind....a freakin' dead horse as everyone else who reads this thread thinks. I told myself to nevermind.....but again, I dropped myself to the level of those who believe in an RP Tech union....or union in itself. I will sign off now.
Oh... for all the REDSKIN believers???? They played a REAL team tonight.....and got BEAT!!!!!
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I think everyone needs to take a pill. :o
Please do not resort to personal attacks or I may just have to invoke the dreaded "delete post option". Thanks for your support ;)
your friendly neighborhood moderator 8)
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I think everyone needs to take a pill.
I took mine. :)
I'm going to start out by saying that I've never been in a Union, but I have worked with many Union employees (particularly in the shipyards).
I am an unshakeable believer in the principle of Unions (i.e., collective bargaining). However, I don't like the way Unions nowadays are being operated.
I have never liked the notion of tenure (and keep in mind that I myself have 20 years of tenure at my current job). If Johnny-come-lately with less time than I've got is better at my job than I am, then shame on me. The only time I personally even give a nod to tenure is if two equally-capable individuals are competing for the same position; then tenure might enter the picture as "bonus points" in the break-out. If I need somebody for a job, then I have only two questions: "Are you qualified?" and "Are you the best person I've got to get-R-done for this job?" Call me simple...
And of course there's the ubiquitous corruption/Mafia perception about Unions. The real shame of this is that there ARE enough bad apples tucked in the infrastructure to keep this image perpetuating (especially the closer you get to the TOP of the infrastructure). Who are the Union bosses accountable to? Who holds them to task? Who do they answer to regarding all of the money (YOUR money) they wield in the name of the Union? What happens to them when they misbehave at their post?
There is no doubt that right now we'd all be getting raked over the coals if it weren't for collective bargaining, but right now I don't care for the Unions themselves any more than I care for the Corporate Giants.
So what's the solution? Oh hell, I don't know... But (as unappealing as this sounds), I actually find myself leaning toward some State/Federal regulation - of both the Giant Corporations and the Unions. Both sides are dealing in tremendous amounts of money, and it's obvious that the honor system really isn't working... In my own humble opinion, it is time for some collective bargaining against both the Union bosses and the Corporate execs; only in this case, the people need to be represented by auditors, regulators, and District Attorneys. It's time for a reset...
[Of course, it's unlikely that this is going to happen. Politicians are just as prone to corruption as Union bosses and Corporate execs, and the Corporate/Union get to cast more of those little green votes that fit inside your wallet than you or I have... Can anybody else say, "Self-perpetuating problem?"]
And in closing, I would like to refer everybody to the signature statement at the bottom of my post. Thanks for letting me rant.
- Greg
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I will take faulty assumption for a 1000, Alex. I take it your job is full time with one company thats what I consider "House", doesnt mean you have to work for a utility. Just because you didnt do anything great in the contracting world you dont have to be bitter about it and then chat like your doing something great because ya took your picture with a tie. I also see that you were an "safety engineer" but I didnt quite catch the college you went to (online perhaps, counting navy time or just self proclaimed engineer). And its hard to believe but the company Ive been working for has rewarded me with diffent job opportunities. (I hope because of my hard work ) Its alright for you to debate the rent a tech/union but please dont downgrade us we know our place and dont tell us what to do, alot of us have done quite without your long winded advice.
Yeah, I don't need a union - and I don't really want to be in one either. But I still have a lot of skin in the game. My friends are out there busting their butts, and getting less for it every year. And I am not above the belief that I may have to come back to the job someday. A union is just one possible answer, but at least it is better to discuss it than to keep things the way they are and hope they will get better on their own.
You don't have the right to claim ownership of the profession, so either listen to me or don't, but you know where you can go if you think you have the right to tell me to shut up.
And I get really sick of debating an issue with someone who can't come up with any argument better than the insults you are spewing at me. You didn't quite catch the college I went to because I never told you. If you think I'm not qualified for my job, don't hire me...Oh, that's right, you can't hire anybody, can you?
Look, this debate isn't about whether or not you like me personally. Nobody - I mean NOBODY - cares if you do or not. Do you have something to say about whether a union would be beneficial or not? If you just want to run me down because you are envious of my position, or you don't like the part in my hair, or whatever, do it by PM. I can delete those, and nobody here has to suffer through it.
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I´ve heard about four new RP tech training programs firing up within the past two years...and since two of them are with 50 miles of the house, I assume there are more that I haven´t heard of.
SloGlo, for your info, Palo Verde is sponsering a course through Estrella Mountain Community College for RP Techs. Entergy is looking through a College in Missouri for recruioting purposes. All without Union help. Get in the game.....boy!!
oko, sew da sunburners git training. duzant due me enny good. btw, i bin in da game.....did time at p.v. in da middule 80s.
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Hmmmm ::) It seems like we are getting off the topic of this thread again :o
How about everybody stick to the topic or comments in the "other" thread ???
Thanks for your support,
your friendly neighborhood moderator 8)
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is this union?
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eye yam tinking dat nukes woooo vote democrat fer prez cut there own throats.
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I guess you have been in management always and never studied your American history. The formation of unions in America helped form the middle class which I am sure most of if not all of you belong. Saying unions are all bad is a generalized statement of the uninformed. Unions helped start worker protection, workers compensation, insurance for workers, retirement funds, hazard communication, chemical exposure control, 40 hour work week, ended sweat shop mentality, removed children from hazardous work, helped women get jobs and become independent...the list goes on and on. What you have today, your work conditions and benefits are all due to the formation of unions in America.
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I don't think the President has as much to do with it as most of you seem to think.
Bushie was supposed to be for cleaning up all the DOE sites and creating the GNEP. Ask the folks at Oak Ridge how that's working out for them.
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I guess you have been in management always and never studied your American history. The formation of unions in America helped form the middle class which I am sure most of if not all of you belong. Saying unions are all bad is a generalized statement of the uninformed. Unions helped start worker protection, workers compensation, insurance for workers, retirement funds, hazard communication, chemical exposure control, 40 hour work week, ended sweat shop mentality, removed children from hazardous work, helped women get jobs and become independent...the list goes on and on. What you have today, your work conditions and benefits are all due to the formation of unions in America.
I think History is the operative word. Unions are not the same nor is union solidarity. A lot of union work is now being done in sweat shops by women and children overseas with no OSHA safety rules. Many unions bargained themselves out of existence, those that are still around are making concessions. If unions lean toward democrats it is because of the republican legislation and government union busting.
I am not pro nor anti union, I have never belonged to a union but have had union people working for me at several jobs. When the union acts as your bargaining agent on your behalf they serve a good function but when they are more concerned about their existence and power they lose their way and help no one.
Industries have come and gone but many have had the death nail put in them by unions not willing to change.
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On July 26th, 2007, the Republicans chose to put big business ahead of the middle-class workers of the United States.
The legislation was a litmus test vote for organized labor and businesses, strong supporters of Democrats and Republicans respectively. "Today's vote shows us who is standing with workers and which politicians are in collusion with corporate America to destroy the middle class," Teamsters President Jim Hoffa said.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/062607T.shtml
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I agree unions have seen their sun start to set.. it is when someone makes a general statement without thinking ...
Just about every benefit workers have today has its roots in the union and they should be honored for that.
As far as the hourly worker- thinking that he or she is cutting the slice of pie the way he wants it... great illusion.. we as managers are given a set of operational guideline used to hire and compensate workers. So far in the last 25 or so years....no hourly worker has ever, ever, ever gotten more than those guidelines. So, think what you may.. we as owners and managers give you what you think you need.. no more no less (well sometimes less) if you notice, typically we let the future employee make a decision on what does he think he needs... that way we can say ... you agreed to that!
If you aren't 1099, consulting, fixed price, or professional...good luck
we employers get what we want to make a profit
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I didn't lobby for anything.
I was just showing the previous posts what the vote was. They were all trying to say that the Democrats were the downfall of nuclear power, and that if you vote for a Democrat, you are gonna lose your job and all the plants will shut down. So far from the truth.
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i agree dave- its election time and time for people to put on their veil to cover their eyes and vote for the politician chosen for them.
remember when we used to say.. your first mistake was listening to a politician? some how they got a lot smarter in the last 8 years or so...the politicians not the voter...
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A lot of union work is now being done in sweat shops by women and children overseas with no OSHA safety rules.
watt union label wood dis bee?
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watt union label wood dis bee?
Without digging to much anything textile and many small appliances.
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watt union label wood dis bee?
Almost forgot those $150 tenny runners that are made for $2 a peice.
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'n dey gots da union label in them?
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'n dey gots da union label in them?
Many of these were made by union labor here at one time, textile/clothing and small equipment manufacture was the first thing to go overseas. Remember the movie Norma Rae?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norma_Rae
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iffen it dawnt say union made, it ain't union made. iffen it sez union made, eye yam betting it's made ina u.s. over sees stuff ain't union made, don't say union made.
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iffen it dawnt say union made, it ain't union made. iffen it sez union made, eye yam betting it's made ina u.s. over sees stuff ain't union made, don't say union made.
We are not on the same wave length. I am saying that there is a lot of work previoulsy done by union labor now being done overseas in sweat shops with little or no safety or environmental oversight even if it is on the books for that country.
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We are not on the same wave length. I am saying that there is a lot of work previoulsy done by union labor now being done overseas in sweat shops with little or no safety or environmental oversight even if it is on the books for that country.
ooh, eye sea. sew da unions shud make udder countrees have safety 'n environmental oversight? lol!!!! iffen yer warried about dat stuff, yinz shud make yer own while trying to comply with da applicable regs. iffen yer want two make yer dollar go further, by chinese. if ya want more dollars to go as far as da few ya gots now, go union. iffen yinz wants nuke power, build a plant. iffen ya wants udder countrees to have power, build them a plant. then watch two see witch plant lasts longer.
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ooh, eye sea. sew da unions shud make udder countrees have safety 'n environmental oversight? lol!!!! iffen yer warried about dat stuff, yinz shud make yer own while trying to comply with da applicable regs. iffen yer want two make yer dollar go further, by chinese. if ya want more dollars to go as far as da few ya gots now, go union.
Dang we still aren't on the same wave length. I am not proposing anything these are statement of facts. If anything could be inferred by this, it is that the unions failed to represent their people in a responsible manner. Cost of transportation is not cheap, going overseas for labor should make it prohibitive. The Japanesse have no problem using US labor, union or otherwise, to mitigate the cost of transport and gain good will. Most are not union but they tend to pay union scale to keep them out.
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Most of you that know me know that I do not like to get angry, and that it is very difficult to piss me off.. I actually took offense to this statment....
so which one of you renters is going to pay monthly dues to stay afloat in the union-most are addicted to unemployment and a few even hit the welfare line when hunger sets in.
I personally loathe using unemployment.... keep me busy, pay me for what I am worth.... and I will CONTINUE to provide for my family. Fortunately for me and mine... I managed to retire once and the benefits will help shelter my family until Congress takes that away beause they might feel under paid again.
I continued reading and realized I might have allowed myself to be exposed.
so which one of you renters is going to pay monthly dues to stay afloat in the union-most are addicted to unemployment and a few even hit the welfare line when hunger sets in.
as any great organizer knows it take guts and stamina to be in a union and make it work-i don't see that in most techs.
Okay Alpha Ill be your Omega..... I would pay those dues... and I am ANTI UNION. But I do not see anyway that we can continue to provide ADEQUATE services with at least COMPETENT people without some type of UNITY.
Sign me up, pencil me in, put me in Coach.... I really love this work. But I think our future is in perile.
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Dang we still aren't on the same wave length. I am not proposing anything these are statement of facts. If anything could be inferred by this, it is that the unions failed to represent their people in a responsible manner. Cost of transportation is not cheap, going overseas for labor should make it prohibitive. The Japanesse have no problem using US labor, union or otherwise, to mitigate the cost of transport and gain good will. Most are not union but they tend to pay union scale to keep them out.
After taking this detour a point to be made is that any union now to be successful has fit its application. Traditional unions for renta-techs would not have provisions in it for tool boxes and not having to supply your own tools on a job as the one with the last effort by the IBEW. The union should be able to provide some benefit to the utilities as well. I worked in outage management at one plant where it proved to be beneficial to use the trade schools to satisfy job requirements and the union made it possible to hire only those specifically trained for one facility. The last effort to organize had the IBEW expecting the techs to stand up to the plate and the techs thought the union would take of business and as a result nothing happened.
After that diatribe I still think that it is unlikely that a union will happen due to the nature of the job and the fairly independent nature of the people in it.
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yes marlin as we have stated for the last two years on here ... this horse is not only dead but the K40 in its bones have decayed off totally.. maybe we can cover this dead topic with 6 feet of dirt... IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN
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Don't let them get to ya LaFeet it seems there are a minority of people who are house or go house that they are able to throw stones at poor rent a techs and sometimes their heads or so far up their own tails they don't even know they are doing it. (forgive them) And as far as rent a techs who are addicted to the unemployment wages I know a millionaire or two who have no problem cashing those gov't checks every two weeks. ;D Hey, I earned that too. Alphadude is right about the rent a techs not becoming union, but one of the main reasons is that there are a lot of rent a techs who don't want the union, me included. (I probably wouldn't mind if I was union if I were an house tech). For the seasonal techs who would like a job under the table I have been in a corporation for 6 years now and are group is looking for non-degreed professionals (so we can keep our wages down). If you can turn a light switch on you can be our electrical engineer, if you been on/in a court you can be our lawyer (basketball players welcomed) and of course if you have hung caution tape or wore a hard hat/safety glasses you can be our safety engineer.
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biloxoi blues i heard your 1 of those millionares that cash's those checks still.
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yes marlin as we have stated for the last two years on here ... this horse is not only dead but the K40 in its bones have decayed off totally.. maybe we can cover this dead topic with 6 feet of dirt... IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN
One thing I learned in life. Things do change. I'm working on gettin a union. I can't give any facts yet but it will be though a different route then RP Techs,
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You're a house tech and already have a union! Why are you working on getting a union?
He has a big heart, and is trying to help others.
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I don't remember anyone asking for help! Why is it that 2 house techs, him and JJ, are so worried about getting us into a union?
That's a good question.
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I don't remember anyone asking for help! Why is it that 2 house techs, him and JJ, are so worried about getting us into a union?
Perhaps they have seen the benefit and want to share it with others? They've got more fortitude than most have, that's for certain. If I was in their shoes I'd say screw it if ya'll don't want the help, fine! I wouldn't put up with the whining & crying against it that's gone on in here.
As far as nobody asking for help you're right. The original question is would you want to join a union or not? The pros & cons get discussed and if it could ever get past the discussion stage then it could still go to a vote and be defeated. I don't think it could get that far because I don't think ya'll can agree on what to have for a dinner, much less on somebody trying to get a better deal for you. Just knowing that fact I don't know what everyone's scared of.
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My daddy taught me years the only person who has your best interest in mind, is yourself. Anyone else probably either wants something or they have their hand in your pocket. Sometimes both!
That may hold true for most... but there are those that look at the big picture. I always envision a TEAM apporaoch. And one aspect that seems to always help is that when I take care of my people, they take care of me. I want me group to be productive, safe and fun. But for this to happen, they have to work together - heck, they have to work - period. As for a Union, I dont like it personally, but Id gladly join if it would better our pay, benefits and work.
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I don't have your best interest at heart - at least not so much as my own. By posting here, I'm looking out for ME and MINE.
There may come a day when I'll be swinging a meter again to pay my bills. If that ever happens. I want the best that I can get for my family.
A lot of discussion happens here about how the ren-a-techs get the short end of the deal, but nobody offers any constructive advice about how to change that.
By trying to get you to fight for your best deal, I am also trying to get you to fight for me too. In exchange, I'll fight for yours. This only works when we do it together.
We use the word "we" a lot around here. "WE" are getting under paid. "WE" don't get enough work every year. "WE" don't get good benefits. "WE" don't get fully compensated for out travel. ......etc., etc.
If "WE" are getting shorted together, then "WE" have to pull together to get out of this mess. There is nothing wrong with looking out for number one. Sometimes though, it is necessary to join the strength of the crowd in order to benefit from it.
I jumped into this discussion mostly because I see that there is a lot of complaining about the inequity, but nobody wants to do what it takes to change that. If you don't want a union, don't join one. But, talking it over first won't hurt you. I hoped for years to make the best possible living without a union (I don't like their politics, and I have a lot of the same misgivings as many of the people here who are against unionization.) but that didn't work. For now, I don't need a union, and I don't want one. If I become a contract RP tech again, that will change.
For those who "didn't ask" for any help, I don't recall any forum rule that makes it necessary fo one to be asked before posting an opinion here. If you don't want to read what I post here, then don't read it. But nobody (that is NO-BODY) needs your permission to post on NukeWorker.
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I beg to differ.. i always state that the way to improve things is to get more education.. process change..
but the choice of being a rent a tech is just that a choice. its a vocation you chose with eyes open and its a situation that is iconic in that RATs are always RATs. otherwise become a safety person, an IH person, an EMT and so on. HP RAT is a good job... pay is above average, you only sweat because its hot not due to calories burned, you work with highly educated people in most cases (notice I didnt say highly intellegent), its a fairly clean work place, there is a corrective actions program that if you know how to work it -it gets results, whistle blowers are protected, exposures are low- (remember 12 rem a year) and so on. no one get whipped, no one gets cancer dose, (if you do its your own fault) you get paid for what u agreed too, WTF!!!!!???? It boils down to some people dont like the special treatment others may get from company owners or providers. Life sucks sometimes, put a sock on it an go on. You could be a greeter at Walmart.
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I don't remember anyone asking for help! Why is it that 2 house techs, him and JJ, are so worried about getting us into a union?
Try this on for size. I was a contractor for 19 year's. The most I ever made was 12.50 @ 50 a day. Our union Contactor techs here get over 30 an hour and almost a 100 a day. That's what I've done as steward here negotiated with Bartlett. I would like to see everyone get these benefits. What is in it for me? Brotherhood, Strength in numbers and Satisfaction in knowing that we have a union finally for all.
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My daddy taught me years the only person who has your best interest in mind, is yourself. Anyone else probably either wants something or they have their hand in your pocket. Sometimes both!
Thanks for your profound opinion and insight.
That's not necessarily a bad way to keep your back covered, even if it's not necessarily true. There are actual people living on the planet right now who would sacrifice their well-being for someone elses. Sounds like daddy didn't trust anyone. You don't usually get screwed that way but it's hard to make friends if you trust no one.
Thanks for recognizing the profundity, simple though it may be.
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Try this on for size. I was a contractor for 19 year's. The most I ever made was 12.50 @ 50 a day. Our union Contactor techs here get over 30 an hour and almost a 100 a day. That's what I've done as steward here negotiated with Bartlett. I would like to see everyone get these benefits. What is in it for me? Brotherhood, Strength in numbers and Satisfaction in knowing that we have a union finally for all.
DJ, your welcome.
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Eric is a sound business man-as long as his margins dont suffer-he will provide. Sorry to say but it all does come down to the numbers.. been there still doing it.
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DJ, your welcome.
I wish I could take credit for it all. Bobby Dean, Johnny Johnson, Ken Frick IBEW 51 all Put the contractor together, But thank you Eric and Bruce
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Eric is a sound business man-as long as his margins dont suffer-he will provide. Sorry to say but it all does come down to the numbers.. been there still doing it.
eric duz union hp techs when da contract calls for them. bin der, dun dat, woar out da tshirt.
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since they ain't listed here under training, perhaps yinz should start a thred listing them.
I did start a thread for the EITC program when they fired it up...think it's in "Colleges".
The other three are ISU, that Duke Power thing that was being advertised on here about a year ago, and the program that's affiliated with STPEGS (this one I haven't researched at all, but was told about by two seperate sources, so took it on faith...).
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Hi out there.
Would like to know if others received emails from the organizers of the NPUA, not to work this spring? My friends here in the East coast, received them. These top organizers want people to not work, while the top 2, with significant others, are working the best paying plant in the country! They are making there 38 to 40 dollars/hr and 160 a day, while asking others not to take the average 23/hr and 100 a day. It will take me both seasons (spring and fall) to make the amount they will make in one season. (and I don't want to hear that they are willing to sit out in Fall, they can afford it making their $45,000 in spring; this is accurate, I got the numbers from friends working out there).
A bit hypocritical, wouldn't one say. They should be leading by example, not the do as I say, not as I do theory. Are they the only ones with bills and families to feed? They are making their money, but want others to sacrafice. Doesn't sound like they care about anyone but themselves.
Any expenses they may have in organizing (website etc) are not an excuse. I don't recall being included in the decisions they make. This thing is starting to sound like a corporation who have top executives who profit on the toils of others ( you know the big million dollar bonuses). I am not totally against unions, but this sounds like a crock.
Again, you should lead by example.
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..I didn't receive the mentioned email, but it sounds more like the walkout we tried in the 90's, that didn't work,,,only made long time arguments, from long time friends..although I haven't worked as an RP in a few years..I agree, this sounds like a crock. I am more in tune with what Beercourt has said about a better arrangement financially, and career wise concerning schooling, training and persuing better avenues outside the RP world, I did, and haven't had to call Eric in years( not dis-ing you Eric, as you have always treated me with respect and professionalism)..as I have worked with union labor over the last few years, they are better trained, have better benefits, insurance, retirement and have an agent that finds their work for them, whereas RP's are searching the internet and contacts for the best deal...so with my simple minded attitude, that only suits me, I would vote for a union, should it be technician oriented, verses a few top dawgs making a dollar off my labor..this is just my opinion..and this is an open website..so there you go...red
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Just do it stand as one!
you can always put up a picket to let them know why you are there.
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Is there a Vice presidency left for the NPUA Union. I want in on some of these dues, and if the pay is high enough I may even change political party!!!
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Why should you get the same as a house tech ?
I assume then the diem would go away ?
you have to look at the package they have for what they do plus the training they have.
How many of RPTS have any thing close to what some house techs have in training? How do you get the training? Who decides where you go and how long you been in the field? when do you make SR.HP.?
what would a Jr Make as will a decon person?
some times you guys do not see the trees from the Forrest.
Who will be on the board for you and how do you get any type of Benny's?
base pay and how do you move up in scale?
how do's one who just come out of the Navy get the same pay as a RPT who has worked many outages ?
or some one who has been out for a while come back in ?
would they get the same scale/
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Why should you get the same as a house tech ?
I assume then the diem would go away ?
you have to look at the package they have for what they do plus the training they have.
Pay is Pay...we should get whatever we are qualified for...which may be more or less than a house person. The senior house techs are usually made 'up-grades' or 'lead techs', so they are rewarded for any extra qualifications they may bring to a specific job.
Per Diem is to cover the extra expense of living away from home...it is not part of some 'Pay-Package'.
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To all the Techs that where at Clinton. Then went to LaSalle or Quad. If you are a dues paying member of IBEW 51 and are working a Exelon Site. I feel you should be getting Union scale. You need to file a grievance against Bartlett. Write Johnny Johnson @ JohnJ@40springnet1.com. Now that Exelon House techs come to Clinton and we have a travel agreement with the company. That should extend to any member of our union. This is just my opinion. But in the absent of Language in the contractor you would go to our house tech contrator then to past practices. That's how NLB does it. You have a good case here...
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Pay is Pay...we should get whatever we are qualified for...which may be more or less than a house person. The senior house techs are usually made 'up-grades' or 'lead techs', so they are rewarded for any extra qualifications they may bring to a specific job.
Per Diem is to cover the extra expense of living away from home...it is not part of some 'Pay-Package'.
Having been both a house tech and a roadie (both before and after) I would have to say that roadies deserve less money in most cases than the house RP's.
House RP's are trained in many more procedures than those that the roadies are required to know. The job is far more involved than the fraction of it that contractors have to do.
The training that I had to take as a house RP was over SIX MONTHS long -- even though I had worked as a contractor Sr. RP at that site for the 18 months immediately prior to being hired.
When you get to a site, and complete the same training that the house RP's have passed, and take on the responsibility that they have, then you should get the same pay. This happens sometimes. There are contractors who are fully qualified at some sites. They should get the same pay. But, a roadie who hits and runs for a few weeks at a time, using only a tenth of the procedures, and having no stake in the utility's overall performance, is not doing the same job as a house tech. So a comparison of pay is not appropriate.
To DJ, I respectfully disagree. An IBEW member and employee of Bartlett, who is working under a contract signed by Bartlett and the IBEW, is entitled to whatever that contract specifies. Those employees have no contract with Exelon. Past practices and contracts only apply to the relationship between the employer and the employee. If you think that the Bartlett employees should have a contract with Bartlett at other sites, then your house counterparts at LaSalle, Quad, etc. need to bargain for the same provisions that you have at Clinton. As long as the contract between Exelon and IBEW at those sites allows non-union contract RP's, then Bartlett can hire non-union. The only people who can change that are the IBEW members who are Exelon employees, by putting it into their next contract. But, how far will they go to get that provision? Will they strike for it? Will the be willing to give up anything at all for it? If not, it ain't gonna happen.
If you followed the rules of your own union, you would actually take action AGAINST the TECHS who work non union at other sites by taking away their membership (making it impossible for the to work at Clinton in the future), but doing so would make you the bad guy. So, instead you are trying to make it look like they are entitled to something that is not in any contract.
Nice try, but it holds no water. If you want something, you have to be willing to stand up and speak out for it (the other option is to sit down and shut up) but very few house techs are willing to do so for the contractors - brothers or not. But, it is easy to say what you think ought to be, as long as you don't have to risk anything to make it that way.
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I haven't worked the Exelon West plants, but I have worked several sites (DoE and commercial) for Bartlett where we were "unionized." In every case, the contract was between Bartlett and the applicable union. As such, any claims, grievences etc we had were with Bartlett. It would be a rare case indeed where an employee of one company would be working under a contract that did not include that company and, it seems to me, it would open a very large can of very slippery worms re: co-employment.
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We need to call a referee. It is not possible for an employee of one company to be under contract to another employer. I believe that you will find that the contract that exists between the techs and Barltett is the one that applies here.
The contract between Exelon and their employees specifies that contractors must hire IBEW members to work at the Clinton site. This places the burden on Exelon to require that Bartlett hire IBEW members in order to be awarded their contract with Exelon. Bartlett is not bound by any other contract between Exelon and the IBEW. They are bound to provide to Exelon that which is specified in their contract with Exelon, and they are bound to the provisions of their contract with the IBEW. If neither of those contracts requires them to hire IBEW members at other sites, or to pay a particular scale at other sites, then they do not have to do so and their employees are not entitled to any recourse against Bartlett for failing to honor a contract that does not exist.
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I agree with Troy (imagine that!)... if there is someone doing wrong here, it is the techs who are 'dues paying members' (once they leave Clinton, they are not) and working outside the union to fill non-union contractor slots.
Please do not interpret my opinion as thinking someone is doing anything wrong. I was in the same position once... I left Clinton to go to another Exelon plant and my union affiliation ended. As a matter of fact, I also worked at an Exelon plant prior to going to Clinton, so it was non-union at La Salle, union at Clinton, and non-union at Limerick... all for different pay rates once the bonus money came into play. All of it was my choice and I did not feel ill-used at any time. I would do it again if it met my needs at the time.
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...I agree with Beercourt also...as we both work with union labor, they sign in with a package, this package includes, their base pay, their double time for Sunday and overtime for Saturday, whether or not they work 40 hours,,it has insurance, and yes some have per diem also..and annuities..not all locals are the same..I just worked a job in Arizona where there were 2 scales,,one California, one Arizona, usually the prevailing scale is the scale of the local that presides over where the work is, but the rest of the package is what is included in the local that the employee holds a card for, excluding the annuity,,,and travelers,,whether they are apprentices or Journeymen get journeyman wages..that would mean a junior HP, should get Senior wages , because he or she is a traveler, even though qualification is not there..this has happened on all Union jobs I have worked on..we had a 19 year old female apprentice working out of her local in Minnesota making $36/hour with 6 months experience..not all locals allow apprentices to travel...so if we are being politically correct here traveling juniors should make union scale..and per diem if it is included in the package...that's the facts..argue or not..I know Beercourt has been on the same kind of jobs as I have, as we work with the same people. so there are allot of unanswered questions concerning per-diem, Jr verse senior pay..double time..double time for holidays also...again these are my experiences with union labor..and I agree with a union if it is run correctly..I work with Millwrights, don't be 99.9% or 100.01% with them, it better be 100.000% or they will find it in the bylaws and have the B.A at site, right now..it happened in Arizona..and it has happened elsewhere...before I would enter into an agreement with any local union, I would want to know who is running the show, what are their qualifications, are they interested in my and my family's well being...because a union, "is a brotherhood", and a strong union brother or sister will stick with you till the end...and if you get put in jail won't be there to bail you out, you will have to call the B.A., because that union brother will be sittin there beside you,,sayin" man, that was fun"....red
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We need to call a referee. It is not possible for an employee of one company to be under contract to another employer. I believe that you will find that the contract that exists between the techs and Bartlett is the one that applies here.
The contract between Exelon and their employees specifies that contractors must hire IBEW members to work at the Clinton site. This places the burden on Exelon to require that Bartlett hire IBEW members in order to be awarded their contract with Exelon. Bartlett is not bound by any other contract between Exelon and the IBEW. They are bound to provide to Exelon that which is specified in their contract with Exelon, and they are bound to the provisions of their contract with the IBEW. If neither of those contracts requires them to hire IBEW members at other sites, or to pay a particular scale at other sites, then they do not have to do so and their employees are not entitled to any recourse against Bartlett for failing to honor a contract that does not exist.
Beercourt, I disagree. Bartlett signed a deal with the union which extends to its members, If there still dues paying members they should honor that agreement no matter where they go. We get fitters from Tn,Al Ar, and IL. There paid union scale. As for the contract between Exelon and their employees specifies that contractors must hire IBEW members to work at the Clinton site. We made that deal as Illinois Power not Exelon. So it simple. Know that Exelon honors the agreement at are site that agreement extends to all Exelon sites. Well maybe its not simple but it sounds good. This could work as a start of a contractor's union. But its up to you guys. For all of you who are in IBEW 51, You can start unit 15. I can't do it for you. All the best to you all anyway it goes. DJ
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Having been both a house tech and a roadie (both before and after) I would have to say that roadies deserve less money in most cases than the house RP's.
House RP's are trained in many more procedures than those that the roadies are required to know. The job is far more involved than the fraction of it that contractors have to do.
The training that I had to take as a house RP was over SIX MONTHS long -- even though I had worked as a contractor Sr. RP at that site for the 18 months immediately prior to being hired.
When you get to a site, and complete the same training that the house RP's have passed, and take on the responsibility that they have, then you should get the same pay. This happens sometimes. There are contractors who are fully qualified at some sites. They should get the same pay. But, a roadie who hits and runs for a few weeks at a time, using only a tenth of the procedures, and having no stake in the utility's overall performance, is not doing the same job as a house tech. So a comparison of pay is not appropriate.
Yes, house techs probably have lots of quals (site-specific, operating plant, etc.) that they should be paid more for...when they are using them. So pay them more non-outage.
I, and most rent-a-techs, have a level of experience dealing with specific outage areas (refuel floor, S/G's, etc) that most house techs will never have the chance to acquire. So pay us more when we are carrying them during an outage. ;)
How would that be? :)
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Have to agree with Unca during a recent S/G replacement no house techs inside containment for the entire outage. Actually the contractors covered the aux. building and yard until layoffs. So where did all the qualified techs work during the 90 days? The running unit, count room and keeping the contractors supplied with working meters. (and of course at training to keep their quals up) The house techs were very knowledgeable and for the most part hard working when asked, but they weren't require til the contractors left. Now there are plants where the housetechs are bumping elbows with the contractors and getting things done, but for the most part during the outages when the contractors are present we are the ones that are doing the work while the house techs are sitting back and "critiquing" are work. So I really do believe the contractors should get the same wages as house techs. Have you ever seen all the housetechs in containment during an outage while the contractors run the rest of the plant?
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Don't EVEN get me started again about some of those house techs at a certain place in PA that is named for the tree-gnawing rodent. They couldn't FIND containment. I sent one to wait for me in the corner. He is STILL circling the building looking for it.
Unc, you are an example of why I hated to be a roadie. Yeah, you and I could handle S/G's and Refuel, and pulling apart RCP's but we got the same $22.50 an hour that the BOP Senior tech got for punching tickets at the counter.
SOME contractors are just plain worth more than others, even more than some house people. The problem is that there is no way of recognizing that on the paycheck under the current system
DJ, I love the sentiment, but get real. The Bartlett RP's who worked at Clinton are not (and probably do not consider themselves) full-fledged members of Local 51. If you really think that any one of them would have paid a dime in dues if it weren't necessary to work that outage, you are fooling yourself.
There is Union membership, and there is paying off the mob. Even those union millwrights that Red talks about will tell the same. Travellers, union members too, have to fork over some cash to the local that they will never see again. It is simple, you wanna work here - you pay the man the two dollars. That is all. Now, if you are willing to let them in on your annuity, funded pension, healthcare plan, sick and welfare fund, legal defense fund, strike fund, ...etc. the story changes a little. But, for now, those people are just paying LU51 to let them work one outage without any hassle - PERIOD.
BTW, Illinois Power - and for that matter Amergen, don't exist any more. So look for the next contract to be quite different from what you are used to. It is far more likely that the Clinton employees will get the same deal that the other Exelon employees have, rather than them adopting the contract that you have. Face it, you are outnumbered.
I'll bet you a nickel that two outages from now, contract RP's at Clinton will not be IBEW members. Unless you and the members of your local are going to be willing to stick your necks out for them. But, the nickel is still in play. I don't think you will, or that it would matter if you did. Like it or not, Exelon is coming to town.
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I have to agree with BC on IBEW 51. I was an RPSS at Clinton in the mid 80's. Contractors did get union scale in return for paying dues but I did not see any union support beyond that for contractors. Even the inhouse techs had some issues with the local, one tech while I was there was suspended for a week by the union because of a misunderstanding in dues and the schedule. The union did not give him a warning and was not willing to budge. On the other hand when I worked in Outage management after that my experience with the local craft was different, the union was cooperative and made staffing for outage and modification work much easier. We were able to use the union training to satisfy on site requirements and those craft who maintained their training and had site specific training were permitted to move to the head of the line for work. It's been a few years since I've been there so my perspective is obviously dated. A union is only as good as the participation of its members.
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Yes, house techs probably have lots of quals (site-specific, operating plant, etc.) that they should be paid more for...when they are using them. So pay them more non-outage.
I, and most rent-a-techs, have a level of experience dealing with specific outage areas (refuel floor, S/G's, etc) that most house techs will never have the chance to acquire. So pay us more when we are carrying them during an outage. ;)
How would that be? :)
I am thinking that most of us would be happy to be within' 15% total compensation when compared to our house tech. buddies. Even if we were paid as contractors dollar for dollar what the house folks make on an hourly basis, consider the 25%+ addition for bene's.
I also think that there is a valid arguement for the inconvenience of being a rent a tech. We travel away from home for months at a time during the year, many of us leaving our wives and children at home hundreds of miles away. If you really think that it can be argued that house techs are deserving of 25 - 40% more than we are then you need to put down the pipe, there is not an arguement in the world that would justify this kind of spread between us and them.
Just my opinion.
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So should we throw our arms up and say I give up? Way don't we just all be assimilated residence is fueltile. I rather die a free man then be a slave.
I know these are quotes from either movies or historical hero's
But one person can make a difference. Then another, Then another. It starts all with a want, a need and an action. So the only two question. Is there a need and is there a want? Karma to all for the discussion.
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as oprah may have said' "why not change jobs or just move out of town?" The Gandhi approach may work but this is 40 years in the making so good luck. The hump and what is not sinking in it that most RATS are transient work force and small in number. And if you dont come to work, it still gets done.
I would ponder a while before laying down on the tracks to stop of this SuperChief.
Oh by the way, we have been trying this since 1977 and its the same story over and over and over again.
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I am thinking that most of us would be happy to be within' 15% total compensation when compared to our house tech. buddies. Even if we were paid as contractors dollar for dollar what the house folks make on an hourly basis, consider the 25%+ addition for bene's.
I also think that there is a valid arguement for the inconvenience of being a rent a tech. We travel away from home for months at a time during the year, many of us leaving our wives and children at home hundreds of miles away. If you really think that it can be argued that house techs are deserving of 25 - 40% more than we are then you need to put down the pipe, there is not an arguement in the world that would justify this kind of spread between us and them.
Just my opinion.
Seems like I've heard this song before. Look, you get what you are willing to accept. If you take a job for what they offer, than you are worth what you are getting. If you don't like it, you have to change it.
You are not going to convince me, or anybody else, that you should get a lot more money just because you think you deserve it - even if you do. As long as somebody else - who may not be as good a tech as you, but can man a control point with his eyes open most of the time - agrees for less, he has set the price. You want to change that, then you don't appeal to Bartlett, or the utilities; you have to work that out with each other. You don't file a grievance against a company for paying you the rate that you agreed to accept, and expect that to solve your problems. You get all your buddies together and agree on what is fair, and then you ask for that together. This is the essence of the union. All speak with one voice. But first, you have to get them all to agree.
My disagreement with DJ is that he's trying to squeeze union working conditions through the back door. Basically trying to get things started by stirring up a controversy over nothing. Never gonna happen, my friend. You gotta do this together, and you gotta do it by the rules, or it won't work.
Biloxi Blues is right about a lot of things. House techs are NOT the answer to the roadies' dilemma. They have enough just trying to maintain their own deal. Most of them could care less if you are getting treated well, either they have bigger problems of their own, or they take you for granted, or they just don't want you there. You are eating away their overtime and taking jobs away from them - whether you pay dues to the local or not. Sure, if they have to have you there, they are going to squeeze all the hot nasty work out of you that they can, but wouldn't miss many of you if you didn't show up. Sometimes, the house staff just loves you, but even then they are not at all concerned with your arrangement with your employer. It's not their problem.
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My gawwwwwwwd this thread is long in the tooth...and redundantly redundant.
Either get on board with the current push through npua or don't, but please...someone shoot this thread in the head.
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My gawwwwwwwd this thread is long in the tooth...and redundantly redundant.
Either get on board with the current push through npua or don't, but please...someone shoot this thread in the head.
Long enough to have lost the original post about the IBEW.
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My gawwwwwwwd this thread is long in the tooth...and redundantly redundant.
Either get on board with the current push through npua or don't, but please...someone shoot this thread in the head.
As long as people are unwilling to take responsibility for themselves this dead horse will continue to get whipped.
To repeat myself once again:
If you can't live with what you are getting paid to do the work you do, then hold out until you get more. Before that will work you have to have a lot of the people that you work with agree that it is worth doing. A union will help do that, for a price. Unfortunately that price is not just your union dues, it includes a loss of some of your freedom... the freedom to work when and where you want (not guaranteed anyway, but attainable if your reputation is good enough), the freedom to NOT work when you want without penalty, and the freedom to switch between jobs as the opportunity arises. Not all of the freedom you now have, but some. Only you can decide if the trade-off is worth it. The big catch is you probably have to make the decision before you have all the facts.
I am not going to try to make that decision for anyone and advocate for or against anyone organizing or joining a union. For me, no one has been able to show me enough evidence to prove it would be worth it to me. I may be an unusual case, but I generally am happy with the jobs I get and the money I am paid. Sometimes I work as a tech, sometimes as ALARA, Rad Engineer or instructor. Would I like more money? Of course. Am I willing to trade off what I have now for what a union would offer? I have no way to make that assessment with any assurance... and not even the union can tell me for sure.
Over 34 years I have made a pretty decent living in a crazy business and have had more freedom than most of the people I know. That is why I like the job. I spent a lot of time building a reputation as someone that could be counted on to show up on time, pass the tests, do the job well, stay until released and not be a pain-in-the-ass to the site coordinator (mostly.) In other words, I live up to my end of the agreement I make when I accept the job. That is all anyone asks. Sometimes the job is great and sometimes... well, less than great. But I meet my commitments. For that I get offered better outages, an occasional job with a fancier title and more money, and steady work. I don't focus on what the other people are making. If I think I screwed up by taking what I was offered, I learn from the error and apply it the next time. If the house techs make more all I have to do is ask myself if I want their job and the answer comes up no. If money was the only factor, I would be planted somewhere thinking about the day I start collecting my pension (in about 12 or so years.)
If the money is the most important thing for you, join a union. If there are other considerations that you use to decide what you do for a living then be very careful that you know what the cost of that extra money is. It may be worth it, but someone will have to show me the details first. So far no one has offered that to me.
Roger Troja
Department of Redundancy Department
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Roger Troja
Department of Redundancy Department
That's next to the Department of Silly Walks isn't it? Just keep and eye out for the little white rabbit and keep the Holy Handgrenade close by!!! :)
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That's next to the Department of Silly Walks isn't it? Just keep and eye out for the little white rabbit and keep the Holy Handgrenade close by!!! :)
Never leave home without it.
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They just showed the FBI rounding up alot of mob people. The NBC news said this will help in New York, but the Mob influence is still great in the Labor unions.
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The federal indictment also alleges that Gambino associates extorted people in the construction industry, embezzled from labor unions and engaged in illegal loansharking and bookmaking.
Three of the seven murders alleged in the indictment involved victims who weren't criminals.
"It's a fallacy to think organized crime murders occur within the closed shop," said Mark Mershon, head of the FBI's New York office.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-02-07-mafia-arrests_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip
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OK, so what's the name of the company behind Door Number One?
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I am sooooo throwing the flag.
Okay, so who is this company?
Can any company bargain with NPUA, or just this one?
Can anyone be a duly elected officer of the NPUA? Who are the officers? How were they elected? When is the next scheduled election? How many of them are related/married to the officers of this Door Number 1 company?
There is too much that is NOT being revealed here. And, I am not about to buy a pig in a poke.
Even if this is all legitimate, the company who is paying $35 and GSA per diem is still not going to have any work for all those people. Let's do some math. $35/hour x 0 hours = $0. So, how is this better?
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OK I heard rumor of a new union. THE I.O.P.O.R.P.T International Orignation of Piss Off Radiation Protection Technicians. You don't have to join. Your already member. Paying dues all your life. Benefits plenty. Heart Attacks, Strokes, Asbestos, Smoking, Drinking, Divorce, Lead poison Self Medcation, Self Abuse, Cancer, Suicidal ideation and meeting & working with some of the best dam people in the world. It don't get any better then this! :D
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Most Outages already staffed, But I am still holding out for a vice presidency and 38 an hour NRRPT in the NPUA union. Show me the money PM me and see if we can work something out.
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OK I heard rumor of a new union. THE I.O.P.O.R.P.T International Orignation of Piss Off Radiation Protection Technicians. You don't have to join. Your already member. Paying dues all your life. Benefits plenty. Heart Attacks, Strokes, Asbestos, Smoking, Drinking, Divorce, Lead poison Self Medcation, Self Abuse, Cancer, Suicidal ideation and meeting & working with some of the best dam people in the world. It don't get any better then this! :D
I have been in this industry at varying jobs (mostly RP related) since 1974. I am not Pissed Off (occasionally I have been of course, but show me someone who has not) nor have I had a heart attack, stroke, Asbestos problems, lead poisoning, Cancer or suicidal thoughts. I don't smoke, but I do drink, but not to excess, except for you people that think one or two drinks a day is excessive. I have been divorced 3 times -- once before I started traveling, once after I stopped traveling (my second wife was a tech too) and once that was due to end before I started traveling again. I don't blame any of them on my job. The only self-medicating I do is with Homeopathic remedies.
However, I have worked with some of the best people in the world (and a few that most certainly do not fit in that category.) At least you got one small part right.
This job is not for everybody. For those that hate it there is an easy way out.
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Let's play "The Price Is Right"
Behind Door Number One:
We have a company willing to pay you $35/hr for a Sr RP Tech, the federal per diem rate, federal travel, and a comprehensive health benefit package. You are represented by a nationwide union that will have a ratified agreement on overtime hours, holidays, meals, sick time, representation during disciplinary action, and a pension plan.
Behind Door Number Two:
We have companies that consistently pay you in the low $20s/hr for a Sr RP Tech, averages $90/day in per diem, capped travel, no benefits, no representation, recruiters that mislead you to get you to the jobsite, terminates techs on the fly without even an investagatory meeting, no documentation, no just cause.
Now.. let me think. Hmmm. How about door number one Bob.
The Nuclear Professionals Union of America is a grassroots organization dedicated to promoting social and economic justice for working people in the nuclear industry. That's from the front page of the NPUA's website. Research it for yourself. Call them and ask them your questions. They've picked up the phone every time I've called them.
They are not asking anyone to "sit out" this Spring. They are negotiating a collective bargaining agreement with a company that has contract proposals at all of the outages this Spring. But the utilities will not award a backup contract unless the primary contract companies, Bartlett and Atlantic, can't staff the outages.
We have to help ourselves. There is another option out there.
but you still haven't told us the name of the company behind door #1. could it be there is nobody behind door #1?
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Let's play "The Price Is Right"
Behind Door Number One:...
but you still haven't told us the name of the company behind door #1. could it be there is nobody behind door #1?
Don't expect an answer. He hasn't even figured out that there is no 'Door Number 1' in 'The Price is Right.' The doors were in 'Let's Make a Deal.' Carol Merrill would be so disappointed.
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.."RD"..Great reply..I agree with you...I have worked with some of the best people in the world in this business, some of them I have known since the canoe club in the 80's...alot of them knew me and remember things about me that I don't....I have been sober and clean for 10 years...I still get people reminding me of " the old daze"...well those old daze, aren't what I am about now...I like you chose to take a different route other than RP, spent some of my money on courses, spent my off time under instruction on the Manipulator crane...and got a different job..I have a couple marriages, and my wife now has alot better husband than my first wife.....and I would like to thank Rhennhack for starting and keeping this website going, we can talk freely( well most of the time)..and discuss, debate and state our opinions..especially about this topic..and get alot of information about our friends and family...and occaisionaly a job...this topic is about a union,,,well I hope it works, because we have tried before, not successfully, because it wasn't tried the best way, nor by the best people and the information that was put out about it was hit and miss,,,with NUKEWORKER.COM...you get it now....the information age,,the 21st century might just put contract RP technicians salaries and benefits where they should be...and with all the hype about new construction, this industry is getting ready to bust wide open like it was when we first started.....just a reply from an old squid, turned biker...that can't remember working Oconee...but I do remember cash per diem from IRM....red
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I have been in this industry at varying jobs (mostly RP related) since 1974. I am not Pissed Off (occasionally I have been of course, but show me someone who has not) nor have I had a heart attack, stroke, Asbestos problems, lead poisoning, Cancer or suicidal thoughts. I don't smoke, but I do drink, but not to excess, except for you people that think one or two drinks a day is excessive. I have been divorced 3 times -- once before I started traveling, once after I stopped traveling (my second wife was a tech too) and once that was due to end before I started traveling again. I don't blame any of them on my job. The only self-medicating I do is with Homeopathic remedies.
However, I have worked with some of the best people in the world (and a few that most certainly do not fit in that category.) At least you got one small part right.
This job is not for everybody. For those that hate it there is an easy way out.
RD, I was just generalizing or trying to capture all the things I seen or done which is impossible. It was not met to be a slam on anybody or Rad Techs in general. It good to be careful. But with this post I was trying to have people think a Little bit more positively. Instead of all the negative things about the past. You know I could write a small text on what I don't like and novel on what I do. Sorry if I offend you. DJ
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RD, I was just generalizing or trying to capture all the things I seen or done which is impossible. It was not met to be a slam on anybody or Rad Techs in general. It good to be careful. But with this post I was trying to have people think a Little bit more positively. Instead of all the negative things about the past. You know I could write a small text on what I don't like and novel on what I do. Sorry if I offend you. DJ
I am not offended, just pointing out that not all contract HPs are pissed off about their lot in life. Or alcoholics, drug users, or otherwise poisoned by their job. In my experience, those that feel particularly abused in this industry did a lot to bring it on themselves... or at least did nothing to prevent it.
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Seems to me that this "New Company" is all to mysterious. In my 26+ years I have heard of and seen a lot of New Companies come and go, but I've never seen one that wouldn't at least let you know their name. If everyone wants a union then the news should be easier to find. I work pretty much where I want to and when I want to and make what I agree to. I too have worked with a lot of great people and a lot of slugs but I at least decide for myself where that is going to be. My advice would be to work hard, show up on time and stay till the end and then your name will be good enough to keep you working. If there was a union for Rent-a-techs then I would probably join but I would have to see more about it first.
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Great post, Henry. Karma to ya!
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:D I know I'm newer to the business than most. I also understand that I have a lot to learn as well. I also know that with unions it protects how do you say, certain people. We have all worked with subpar coworkers and are pretty fed up with that. Every outage we do, go to we see the same "desk techs" Making the same amount of money as us go getters. I have trouble backing an idea with out more proof. The idea sounds awesome, I would love to be represented, benefits, more money, a little more job security. But, at the same time, I can't afford to put all my trust into this idea yet. Unless with out a doubt, there is more concrete evidence. I'm not trying to step on my fellow peers feelings or be the pessimistic puke. Before everyone gets all emotionally attached to this, let's get the facts straight. Of course the recruiters at Bartlett and Atlantic are bending the truth. They have jobs, they forget with out those of us field workers, not just Techs, they wouldn't have jobs. I don't know the numbers, but there are those that have been a contractor, laborer, etc. Seems to me they have forgotten where they came from. Am I wrong for feeling and thinking as I do. Without cold hard facts, I wouldn't feel right paying dues to a group of people that have will not represent me, my fellow coworkers. I don't like the fact that we bust our rearends day in and day out, we get lower per Diem's, hourly pay, caped travel even with the sickening rise of gas prices. I love going to outages and spending a ton of money on room and board and now a ton of gas, especially when I still have a mortgage payment.
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You see my point? Look at your post. We ALREADY have the weak, the lame (figuratively speaking), the untrained and the lazy working alongside the heavy hitters for the same pay. Now, if someone has a disability that makes it necessary for them to work their shifts at the desk, the LAW protects them - not a union and not the company. What we are talking about here is actually those who are not handicapped, but lazy or incapable. The concept that a union protects these second-tier techs is not enough of an argument against unionizing. They are ALREADY protected by the companies who keep putting them to work - because they charge for them by the hour, and and hour is an hour.
Like I keep saying: I 'm not advocating that everyone jump up and join a union. But, whenever I see an argument for or against one, I'm going to challenge it. That way, the decision will not be based on a lot of emotions and untested ideas - like this one. There are workers on the job who can't or won't pull their weight. They are here without a union; they will be here with a union. As far as I can tell, this argument is a wash.
Your second argument - that your work is arranged by, and your interests are protected by, persons who are out of touch with the workers in the field. That is always going to be true. Even those who used to do the job back in the day are somewhat out of the loop with the way things are today. In fact, they are even more jaded by their own past (and irrelevant to today) experiences.
The question for you is this: If you don't like what you are getting, what are you going to do to change it? You may come to the conclusion that it is impossible for you to better your lot as long as you stay with the same job. That was my answer. There are too many people who are more than happy to travel on their own time, for less than the maximum mileage and per diem allowances, and not-so-great pay. You try to upset their little comfort wagon and they are going to kick you off.
Go back to college, broaden your scope of abilities, polish your resume, and start shopping for a better job. Leave this one for the ones who like it the way it is.
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Wish there was something out there that was worthwhile. What is out there is just a repeat of the past for more money per month. Nothing concrete to offer, just empty promises. And for those who say "Open a line of communication with them (NPUA) and read the website", many of us have and still nothing concrete, just empty promises and trust us. Why should we trust someone who is self appointed and not voted in. Sounds more like a company than a union.
I think things will change with experience leaving the field and non experience and those who are either lazy or don't or cant work left.
Just the way it looks from a workers stand point.
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You see my point? Look at your post. We ALREADY have the weak, the lame (figuratively speaking), the untrained and the lazy working alongside the heavy hitters for the same pay. Now, if someone has a disability that makes it necessary for them to work their shifts at the desk, the LAW protects them - not a union and not the company. What we are talking about here is actually those who are not handicapped, but lazy or incapable. The concept that a union protects these second-tier techs is not enough of an argument against unionizing. They are ALREADY protected by the companies who keep putting them to work - because they charge for them by the hour, and and hour is an hour.
Here Here... cive that guy a harumph!!
This is so true.... and unfair to boot. I don't mind busting my buttocks for my pay. I even take pride in the work I do, push myself to do the best that I can. But I get steamed when I see the turd that cant or wont climb a ladder or has a problem dressing out and gets paid the same or more than I do.
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The thing I hate is when I always get picked to do those so called TECH A and A- jobs and get the same as the ones who always sit the control points.
The utilities always seem to get the few who they trust and the rest just seem to muddle along and get the same pay.
I'm not sure of a solution for this problem but im open to suggestions.
Maybe the union could scale something on time in the bizz/jobs that you have covered.
I don't know.
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The solution is simple. Utilities need to stop hiring the 'psuedo-techs' that practice smashing their asses all day because that's what they've been doing to get their time. They have NO initiative, no ambition, no useful purpose.
Alas.... that'll never happen. The utilities bring in warm/luke warm bodies just fill the numbers.
Until the utilities consider RP/HP techs a useful tool in their everyday/outage operation, they'll never care who they bring in, much less whether you do the work of the three geriatric, out of shape techs left to play access nazi.
Come in, do the work assigned, leave.
Sorry, that's just the way it is. A union is just gonna protect the slugs, and give them leverage if they ever are denied work.
Look at union house techs across the country. Lots are worth more than their weight. A little more are riding the union card, and the utility is better off without them, but they're stuck.... because of the union.
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The thing I hate is when I always get picked to do those so called TECH A and A- jobs and get the same as the ones who always sit the control points.
The utilities always seem to get the few who they trust and the rest just seem to muddle along and get the same pay.
I'm not sure of a solution for this problem but im open to suggestions.
How 'bout if the contracts had a special pay for 'Returnee Hot-Job-Coverage Guru'?
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How 'bout if the contracts had a special pay for 'Returnee Hot-Job-Coverage Guru'?
It would still come down to someone's friend getting the desigantion.
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The thing I hate is when I always get picked to do those so called TECH A and A- jobs and get the same as the ones who always sit the control points.
The utilities always seem to get the few who they trust and the rest just seem to muddle along and get the same pay.
I'm not sure of a solution for this problem but im open to suggestions.
Maybe the union could scale something on time in the bizz/jobs that you have covered.
I don't know.
How would we determine if the work was actually done? Go by the resume write up? Should they base pay premiums on dose received in previous outages or lifetime totals or should a bonus be paid based on the most dose received during the outage? Wouldn't we need some way to discover if the job was done effectively? What if that's the only plant that utilizes that particular tech in that sort of critical position? Would they lose or keep the premium on subsequent jobs? Should the union/utility pay a premium based solely on time spent in the business? The arguments for pay based on "merit" or "time in grade" can work both ways in "real life" as we have all seen. As far as that goes, how would we determine the relative "merits" between positions? Is the Yard-dog who spends most of his time smearing and clearing any less critical to the success of the utility and their outage than the tech who covers generator work or deconning the cavity?
And, lastly, how would a union address these (and other) issues to the mutual satisfaction of the utilities and the Techs?
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It would still come down to someone's friend getting the desigantion.
I don't mind if they take the designation...as long as they can pull their weight...
How would we determine if the work was actually done? Go by the resume write up?
That's why I think it would have to be for returnees only...
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Sure seems strange that one of the Big Icons of the industry, (INPO, NRC, NRRPT, ANS, Contract Companies), hasn't stepped forward to set some sort of criteria for the industry?
The feedback seems to be the same across the board, about 2:5 techs working the outage! 3:5 supporting the outage! I heard a couple of Technicians actually pushed the ALARA venue at a couple of utilities, 40% of the Tech's with 90% of the department dose! That's a rather interesting statistic for identifying the effectiveness of an ALARA program! If those individuals are that critical to the safe and efficient support of the project, shouldn't they receive some sort of premium for their risk?
In case anyone lost track of the Risk Factor, Ionizing Radiation is still on that List!
Although I don't believe that dose should be use as a performance indicator, I find it unreasonable for two qualified ANSI 3.1 seniors to have a difference in dose of 2 mr vs. 400 mr at any project! If the pay's the same and the stay's the same, then the dose should also be relatively equal!
Kind of Obtuse, don't you think..............RG!
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Although I don't believe that dose should be use as a performance indicator, I find it unreasonable for two qualified ANSI 3.1 seniors to have a difference in dose of 2 mr vs. 400 mr at any project! If the pay's the same and the stay's the same, then the dose should also be relatively equal!
Kind of Obtuse, don't you think..............RG!
I have seen technicians covering the same high dose job with wide variances in exposure. At first glance one would think that the technician with more dose is obviously doing a better job of controlling the work than the technician who has 1/2 of the exposure of the first technician.
Upon further review you find that the technician with double the dose is in reality just hanging around the higher dose areas, maybe out of curiosity(?) of the work being done. This does not equate to more pay in my world.
Using dose received as a measure of coverage being provided, is not a good way to go.
Of course this is just my opinion and I could be wrong ;)
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Wish there was something out there that was worthwhile. What is out there is just a repeat of the past for more money per month. Nothing concrete to offer, just empty promises. And for those who say "Open a line of communication with them (NPUA) and read the website", many of us have and still nothing concrete, just empty promises and trust us. Why should we trust someone who is self appointed and not voted in. Sounds more like a company than a union.
I think things will change with experience leaving the field and non experience and those who are either lazy or don't or cant work left.
Just the way it looks from a workers stand point.
So what you're saying is I'm going to look out for number 1 Right? How selfish and devicsive (spelling) that is. Now don't get offended. But that's been the whole problem for 30 years. We don't want to come together for a good cause. Oh yeah, it's gonna cost us $40 a month. WOW, I don't know if I can afford that? Give me a break. that boils down to 2 sodas a day! If you can't afford that for a chance to get these utilities to recognize us than you need to get into another line of business and anyone else that feels that way. Have you ever tried to "invest" your money into your future? I'm sure it was alot more than 2 sodas a day. Take a chance for once in your life. This isn't 1989!
Totally different situation now. This will work if we would just support it.
Don't get mad or judge someone that is trying to make a difference. Maybe some of us are just ticked off cause we didn't think of it first and have the guts to step out there and get the ball rolling. And NO, I am no part of the NPUA. I just think it's our best shot at getting someone to listen to us.
Food for thought
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FINALLY !!!!!
Someone who thinks like i do! I think this NPUA is the best chance we have at finally making some money and having some security. Im sure it wont be perfect, but nothing is right! I mean at least then maybe i can make a little more hourly than the fire watches. Not that im putting down their job at all, they just dont have the responsibilty on their shoulders that i do as a tech. I'm all for this union!! :)
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I have seen technicians covering the same high dose job with wide variances in exposure. At first glance one would think that the technician with more dose is obviously doing a better job of controlling the work than the technician who has 1/2 of the exposure of the first technician.
Upon further review you find that the technician with double the dose is in reality just hanging around the higher dose areas, maybe out of curiosity(?) of the work being done. This does not equate to more pay in my world.
Mine either, but it does equate to a lack of experience and training, "The main topics of todays Industry"!
My response addressed the varience between the sitter and the getters! Although all task are essencial to the successful completion of the outage, some demand more responsibility then others and some add an increased recognized risk to the individual. More responsibility and risk equate to better compensation in the real world, which doesn't happen to be our world!
Actually I would suggest compensation directly related to the LACK of DOSE! Pull out those ALARA estimates and assign a dose goal to the area's Technician team for all projects with an accumulated estimate over 1 Rem for Health Physics, (make it a realistic goal)! Meet it, get an added bonus! Beat it by 10%, double the bonus! Beat it by 20%, quadruple it! Offer an incentive like that and some of your sitters will learn the jobs and become getters! Then again, some facilities can keep running the same old game of sitters and getters. The same pay while working ten feet from the coffee pot and an outage goal of 1 mr vs. suited and sweating in the loops, picking up a couple of hundred millirem, what kind of incentive is that?
Imagine that, a program that breeds technical competance and reduced exposure!
WHAT A NOVEL CONCEPT!
Just a Rant and probably off topic, RG!
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I think maybe the idea is good,but let's face the facts.I don't think this could ever happen for a few reasons.I agree with Shovelheadred about people being individual and self centered.I got in the business. in 81. I know then work was more easy to find and times were easier to live,but all things changes,but the one that doesn't is our right to make choices.We all know even if we worked at Micky-D's or at some warehouse we would still find a way to bitch about money,the way we are treated or even the person working beside you.We could be working for min. wage and killing ourselves for it. I've tried normal working man life, I've ran my own Roofing and framing crew,worked for plumbers,bricklayers and I could go on,but in the end I come back we all know we could use higher wages,but forming a union isn't it.Henry Black hit it on the head come to work do your work with pride and respect your coworkers and you can keep work. I was raised get $ earn the $.Union I feel will keep the lazy man working and put the working one out.I guess I'm saying I've worked for a lot of comp.such as IRM,NSS,Powersystems just to name a few but Bart. has been good to me over the years they have kept me work and as for Recruiters not telling all we know that has been like that since the beginning of time. If we could all unite that would be good but this isn't the Bonny and Clyde days anymore people are to selfish
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The whole debate on this centers on two issues that persist on this blog....1.the sitters vs the getters and 2. pay........but a union won't solve those.......a legitimate recognized trade will have a legitimate recognized union with a legitimate recognized apprentice training program..period .........the hp apprentice program I see in training is to throw some dedicated deconners in a corner of a noisy classroom(all the senior hp's are talking about back at oyster creek we did it this way.......) with some procedure books, the NUF study guide, and then a two hour class on how to read a meter..........certainly the utilities don't use that approach when training their junior house hp's.... oh by the way how many years does it take a junior hp to get enough hours(working outages) to get to senior hp status?
The utilities, bartlett, inpo(ahh....the golden parachute club...) and the nrc all sit by idly, happy that it's not costing money to get the warm bodies they need....I have talked to RPM's about the training program and the standard response has been....what day did you get your badge? Oh I came in on monday and I got my badge on wednesday afternoon. and the rpm says see our training program works it should only take 2.8 days from when you walk on site till you have your badge......
Bartlett has shown some initiative in overcoming staffing issues.......I believe their hp development program is more centered on which country can they go to next....
so don't fret...the status quo will remain and the union will never have a chance...
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No whereMan
you hit it right on the chops. You have the F.O.B.s who have the training for book smarts and have to learn to be an hp on the go. But that club is for the navey guys who served there time. but also there are those who have worked there way up I recall having a decon type person more than happy to set A/S and get smears and learn how to count them. But those days seem to be gone.
get 150 techs togather and if you are paying for a home, kids in school and bills to pay. Well most people will go to work. If we are to work in a union a person is better to go house. That is my feelings. But if this can be put togather it would be good for all.
What the heck all it takes is one person to get it going.
good luck
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I was a chief steward for 6 years when I worked at Charleston Naval Shipyard and I must say that the union(IAM&AW) got along well with management. There were a few problems from time to time but we were able to work everything out. I electricians union there though had a lot of problems. It seemed as though they were unwilling to be flexible in any way. I for one would love to be part of a union again but only if I knew that it would not turn out to be a "good ol' boys club" and that it would truely work for getting us the wages and benefits we deserve. Hard nose union activity would be a real turn-off.
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If the "union" could concentrate on a legitimate cornerstone of a training program for apprentices and institute a wage progression scale based on hours worked, you may have some traction for getting a union,
however, the only thing I have seen from NPUA's web site is about wages/per diem, so the discourse will remain the same.........1. the sitters vs. the getters 2.we should get a raise, because 87% of the hp's passed the meter reading test....
I would like to see a union for hp's,..... but if the only concern from the union is a wage scale, I am not going to vote for half of a union....
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If the "union" could concentrate on a legitimate cornerstone of a training program for apprentices and institute a wage progression scale based on hours worked, you may have some traction for getting a union,
Superficially, that sounds good. However, how would you recommend a union for contractor HP/RP/RCT Techs handle the training issue? With well over 100 possible sites (commercial nuke, DOE, research, medical, remediation, etc.), how would you construct a training program for the Juniors/Deconners and what exam process would you recommend to ascertain if they have acquired enough knowledge to be considered for Senior status? Who would be the accreditation facility? Would the NRRPT accept the classes towards their maintenance program as legitimate training? Who pays for the training - the Tech, the contract company, the client?
In all fairness, I learned most everything I know through self-study and mentoring by some very patient Seniors when I first started on the road back in 1974. I've managed to learn enough to pass the NRRPT and to no longer sweat the NUF when it comes up. This brings up another issue: Should the Techs who do OJT and mentoring get special credit relative to their union status along with counting their time and dose?
Michael
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well in the past, self study and being dedicated and mentoring worked.........over the last 5 years, I could count on one hand the number of viable juniors willing to learn....
the union would be the voice of the technicians.......and I believe that pushing a training program is a better alternative that hp's would like to see, instead of going to different countries to recruit workers.....the union could sit there and run the admin part and document a training program just like bartlett does...
The utilities have the most at stake regarding staffing of hp's.......they have the accredited training program, they have access to nantel/pads......would a 40 hr class for juniors seem unreasonable?
right now the system is broken down, virtually every outage staffed is 10 to 15 people short(unless they are paying a $8/hr bonus), it is only a matter of time before management at the utilities says "hey the outage went well with 15 people short, lets staff accordingly next time....."
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the union would be the voice of the technicians.......and I believe that pushing a training program is a better alternative that hp's would like to see, instead of going to different countries to recruit workers.....the union could sit there and run the admin part and document a training program just like bartlett does...
Once again, superficially this looks reasonable. However, the utilities' training cycles cover anywhere from one to three years (depending on the utility and what is included in the scope of their training). DOE requires retraining on the Core materials every two years.
The utilities would be of no help when it comes to other sites, i.e., research, laboratories, D&D, DOE, medical, irradiation facilities, etc. Where do they get their training? What happens to the NANTEL classes after all these diverse facilities have their input for their own specialized needs? Where do we find all the instructors and CBT developers needed to accomplish this monumental undertaking? Do you think the utilities would be interested in absorbing the cost of an additional 40-hour class for contractors that will only be there once every 18 months - assuming they all return to the same utility every outage?
I must interject that I'm not disagreeing with you. I think a formalized training system is essential to developing new Seniors. However, I don't think the union is the vehicle to accomplish this goal. I'm also not sure what would be an acceptable vehicle to cover the diverse range of needs within our profession. In our contractor world, the onus has always resided with the individual to learn. Some Seniors are good at helping the Juniors and Deconners learn, but there needs to be a better way to get more people involved as the influx of new people increases.
The union would be an excellent for maintaining a data base that includes training and other professional qualifications. At the utilities, the unions have nothing to do with the actual training or maintaining a data base of qualifications. They only track time-in-grade that automatically advances the technician to the next pay grade. If you add in performance and tracking of training to the union's functions, the utilities (as well as other facilities) might well object and they would demand an input into the curriculum.
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..... At the utilities, the unions have nothing to do with the actual training or maintaining a data base of qualifications. They only track time-in-grade that automatically advances the technician to the next pay grade. If you add in performance and tracking of training to the union's functions, the utilities (as well as other facilities) might well object and they would demand an input into the curriculum.
I can only speak for my location, but we have Union journeymen teaching some classes, scheduling the OJT & TPE, and even doing the TPE's. Again, every situation and location is different and I can only speak for Callaway.
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Superficially, that sounds good. However, how would you recommend a union for contractor HP/RP/RCT Techs handle the training issue? With well over 100 possible sites (commercial nuke, DOE, research, medical, remediation, etc.), how would you construct a training program ....
due knot axe da yammer hammers here how two due that. go talk with any union craft journeyman. he'll tell yinz what classes he had to dew. how long it took. iffen he ever did naught git inna place becaws he wassant qualified. afftar ya due dat, bring yer reseerch bak hear 'n tell every buddy watt ya learnt.
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I am in amazement of this whole thread. I can’t believe the bantering about something that hasn’t been thought out by anyone. I’m not saying I know it all, but none of the comments are based in reality.
“The union would be an excellent for maintaining a data base that includes training and other professional qualifications. At the utilities, the unions have nothing to do with the actual training or maintaining a data base of qualifications. They only track time-in-grade that automatically advances the technician to the next pay grade. If you add in performance and tracking of training to the union's functions, the utilities (as well as other facilities) might well object and they would demand an input into the curriculum. “
Maintaining a database that includes training and other professional qualifications is already done by each of the contract companies. Just for instance: Atlantic Group does not call me and ask me to work on valves. Bartlett calls me to place me as an RP Technician. The databases are already there. Each utility, even those that are in the same system, have different qualification requirements as far as their plant goes. The utility would demand input into the curriculum. The utilities have a database they rely on and it’s called PADS, past that they rely on the contract company to ensure qualified people are chosen from their databases to show up. That’s when the worker has to meets the utilities internal testing requirements. i.e…welding, QC, valves, RT certifications, RP procedures, just to name a few. This is something a union can’t do.
“the union would be the voice of the technicians.......and I believe that pushing a training program is a better alternative that hp's would like to see, instead of going to different countries to recruit workers.....the union could sit there and run the admin part and document a training program just like bartlett does...”
Which technicians would that be? Three quarters of the one’s in my break room are just filling space by the contract company so they meet the numbers. 90% of them sit and B&*^% about the lack of this, the lack of that, the movie for the night, they’re late with the ice cream, I don’t get paid enough, I had to a 2 hour jump tonight, they own me this, they don’t respect me. I actually witnessed an incident with several RP techs the other day about writing a survey. 3 of them, all 3 couldn’t figure out how to document a smear >500,000 dpm/100cm2. They didn’t even have a meter with them and was insulted when the lead tech. asked them what the open window reading was. The lead tech. smiled and let them go and the only account of the whole thing is written here. The last outage I was at I found out some people were radioing surveys. You can pay these same people 100 dollars an hour and they will be the same slug. The union won’t and can’t fix that. A union will ensure these same people will be equal to you and me. There is a training program, it’s called college. Pilots have to have a certification before showing up to Delta, and then Delta trains them to their aircraft. Welders have to have a certification, and then they show up to be certified to the plant they are at. I have to pay to take a drivers license test. If I show up to a union hall and claim that I’m the next best thing to canned beer and sliced bread. I would still have to prove it when I got to my job, each time every time.
How many work force companies take fresh off the street people and train them to a technical position with out reimbursement? And, on top of that tell them they are contractors.
I could go on and on with a critique of each comment, just like it’s going to be done to mine. Instead of filling my break room with banter about making things better with a union, step over there and help the ones that need the help now. Who’s going to run this thing? What you’re talking about will need a whole staff, headquarters, rules, computers, structure and most of all money. Do you realize most nuclear power plants are in right to work states? By not joining a union, I will make and have the same benefits as those that do belong. There’s a job for everyone I know, but will I make more if I can actually get up and perform my job? Where’s my union hall going to be? Who’s my steward and do I get a voice in that? Is it a union only for Bartlett RP’s? There are many other RP’s in this country that aren’t commercial. If I’m guarding a locked high radiation area and walk off cause I have to use the bathroom, will a union guarantee my job? Will I make more if I know how to determine mrad/hr?
Respect is earned not demanded. Look around the room, is it equal? Raising the money will allow the plant to pick from a better pool of resumes. I’m not sure where mine would be. Have you ever seen a guy at your grocery store, service station, favorite bar, tire place, concert just working their ass off? Working their ass off for minimum wage. If you paid those people 100.00 an hour they couldn’t work any harder type people. That’s me. If the people in my break room all earned 100.00 and hour, would they still sit and complain they didn’t earn enough as they were watching the next movie? Yes they would. And, that’s the rub. The plants know that. Sometimes lumps of coal can’t turn into diamonds.
I don’t mean to pick on the 2 comments I’ve remarked about, that’s just where I stopped. I’ve been a member of the teamsters union for 10 years. Yall all need to go spend time down to one of the halls. Take a moment to figure out what you’re asking for and who’s going to control you next. Is it a union or company that they want to start? Some will say that I’m selfish or unrealistic. Well, when I get on site I’ve made my deal. When others get on site they wanna complain about the deal they’ve made. It’s funny about the line in the sand and standing on the other side of it.
Respect is earned not demanded. It’s a big steam machine, it’s not gonna stop for me or you.
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none of the comments are based in reality? the only junior hp training program I have seen is to throw the junior hp's in the back of a noisy classroom with procedures and the nuf study guide, and then give them a several hour class on how to read a meter.....how many times do you walk out of a "meter reading test" and people have to stay behind because they had trouble reading a meter? and as far as sitting in a break room? all the outages I go to are staffed 10 to 15 people short, so sitting in a break room is a luxury....
actually the status quo is quite broken, yet no one wants to admit that.....if the union could be a vehicle to at legitimize a training program, well that's better than the H1B visa program fixing our problems.
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none of the comments are based in reality? the only junior hp training program I have seen is to throw the junior hp's in the back of a noisy classroom with procedures and the nuf study guide, and then give them a several hour class on how to read a meter
obb vee us lee yew ain't seen a union programme. goe tak a look.
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obb vee us lee yew ain't seen a union programme. goe tak a look.
Which one are you talking about? Caterpillar Inc., United Auto Workers, Ronald Regan and the air traffic controllers, Common Wealth and you're a contractor and you can't cover house people, ConAgra or just the local welders hall? I have seen union programs, been part of several of them in one aspect or the other. I've got a computer and can do the research. I won't support another one. I work in a right to work state and don't have to support one. The logistics can't be worked out.
The power plants are enjoying the diversion of the chatter of all of this as they hire from a pool that none of us are part of. The power plants are backing 2 year programs all around the country and hireling from that pool of people, and will continue to do so. These are people that pay to learn to read a meter. They're not sitting around waiting to pay 40 dollars a month to be trained by a union. Training has to be accredited through IMPO, NRC and the site. Who's paying for these trainers in the union and where are the classes taking place?
Who are we talking about? Is this only for one group? Which craft is forming the union? I'd like to hear all that talked about. Many of the other crafts have unions and find work through them. Find work at the pay that power plant is offering and still have to take test when they get there.
At the plant I'm at, the whispering, the stair well talking and the break room scuttle is only a diversion. I'm in a right to work state right now. Big business won't allow much rhetoric about this in their plants. I know it's not right, not fare and all of that. Who's going to support me and my family if it comes down to walking out? What's the recourse we're talking about?
Why aren't the other crafts in this? You don't have to scratch the surface too much to find out that answer. Go down to their halls and find out the things some of us already know.
Training is not free. Stop sitting around waiting to be paid for training. Those people from the 2 year programs are passing us. Why make it the responsibility of a union to train us? You will still have to pay to be trained properly.
I'm sorry I'm so passionate about this, but come on, I am responsible for my self and I'm not waiting for someone else to tell me who, what, when and where. At the end of a day, I am satisfied with the work I've done. I haven’t' crossed the line in the sand so many people have.
This is it for me. good luck with all the endeavors. “Those who forget the past are destined to repeat it.”
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GWB, No problem, everyone's entitled to his or her opinion. Why don't you feel that a union would be beneficial? Just Curious. I think that a union could do a lot of good things for us!
JJ ;)
a union can do great things if it has power to do great things...I was in the UTU with the railroad for amost 7 years, and the whole time all that happened...ALL that happened...was pay increases slower than inflation, loss of jobs, and less protection from management. And it cost us 80 bucks a month.
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Well here goes nothing, but let's face facts there is no one on a nuke site with as much liability as a Radiation Protection Tech. You sign your name to everthing you do on a site and are responsible for it. I come from a Blue Collar Union family and there are pros and cons to being union. It does protect the weak as well as the strong but the real question is in 5 years will there be enough of us left to matter? :o/b]
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Well here goes nothing, but let's face facts there is no one on a nuke site with as much liability as a Radiation Protection Tech. You sign your name to everthing you do on a site and are responsible for it. I come from a Blue Collar Union family and there are pros and cons to being union. It does protect the weak as well as the strong but the real question is in 5 years will there be enough of us left to matter? :o/b]
Well you have opened your mouth and now we all know!
What about the management team, licensed operators, QC, engineering, maintenance....
The fact is, unless an RP tech acts maliciously, or attempts to falsify information, or destroy information that is required to be retained, an RP tech has almost no liability. If you're performing your work as you are trained to the best of your ability, you personally have no liability.
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WOW!!!! where is the plant you work at and what plant is it on??? I was speaking about contractors not house personnel!!!
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Well you have opened your mouth and now we all know!
What about the management team, licensed operators, QC, engineering, maintenance....
The fact is, unless an RP tech acts maliciously, or attempts to falsify information, or destroy information that is required to be retained, an RP tech has almost no liability. If you're performing your work as you are trained to the best of your ability, you personally have no liability.
I don't know if this is true or not; but seems to me they are the first ones fired when the crap hits the fan... or at least that's the way I've seen it done.
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Well you have opened your mouth and now we all know!
What about the management team, licensed operators, QC, engineering, maintenance....
The fact is, unless an RP tech acts maliciously, or attempts to falsify information, or destroy information that is required to be retained, an RP tech has almost no liability. If you're performing your work as you are trained to the best of your ability, you personally have no liability.
I don't know if this is true or not; but seems to me they are the first ones fired when the crap hits the fan... or at least that's the way I've seen it done.
In my 25+ yrs of experience, if the renta tech was performing per the procedure, as directed, they didn't become the fall guy. It's the guy that covers for the radio'd survey, the missed air sample, the forgotten stay time, the "I'll just be a minute" wrong RWP that gets canned. When I was covering the radiography overexposure out West, I got an attaboy, and treated to dinner by the RP supv when it was all over.
The ones I've seen fired, shoulda been fired....
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Food for thought...
Here at Pilgrim they seem to be having a delay getting some people badged. Plant managemnt isn't paying the contractors to wait for badges. This means if you are waiting for your badge, you aren't getting paid at all.
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Food for thought...
Here at Pilgrim they seem to be having a delay getting some people badged. Plant managemnt isn't paying the contractors to wait for badges. This means if you are waiting for your badge, you aren't getting paid at all.
Not really sure what this has to do with a "rent-a-tech union debate" but...
can we hear from someone who is at Pilgrim that is not being paid while they patiently wait for their security badge to be issued after they submitted a properly filled out PHQ, and successfully passed all of the prerequisite training including FFD testing and any craft/task specific testing?
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Food for thought...
Here at Pilgrim they seem to be having a delay getting some people badged. Plant managemnt isn't paying the contractors to wait for badges. This means if you are waiting for your badge, you aren't getting paid at all.
Plant management doesn't pay my guys, my company pays them. You can be sure I'm billing for every hour that they are waiting for a badge.
But what does this have to do with RP techs having a union?