NukeWorker Forum
News and Discussions => Nuke News => Topic started by: Marvin on Mar 11, 2011, 11:27
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I just heard a news report (FoxNews, our best and brightest) that Secretary of State Clinton stated that we will be sending coolant. Not sure of the veracity of the report, but it sounds like they must need lots of coolant over there.
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Japan is an island... aren't they surrounded by coolant?
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Japan is an island... aren't they surrounded by coolant?
I scratched my head too. I heard about fires at the plants this morning but then I read this article (http://abcnews.go.com/International/japanese-earthquake-stokes-nuclear-fears-damaged-power-plants/story?id=13114181). Vogtle 1&2 comes to mind (e.g. the only site emer ever declared in the USofA, iirc). In that scenario a loss of emer power (i.e. the diesel) with no off-site power. Bad, Bad, Bad. You know synonymous with "un-good".
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Vogtle 1&2 comes to mind (e.g. the only site emer ever declared in the USofA, iirc). In that scenario a loss of emer power (i.e. the diesel) with no off-site power. Bad, Bad, Bad. You know synonymous with "un-good".
wah shoooooot, we'll jus' boot-strap off that there De-cay Heat. Should be back at 7% power in no time a-tall ;)
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This just in...Hillary is sending 100 cases of prestone over....
It's funny that even Fox news just repeated this same thing... just
goes to show you how clueless the media is about nuclear power.. LOL
You would think that they could get someone on there that has a clue...
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This just in...Hillary is sending 100 cases of prestone over....
It's funny that even Fox news just repeated this same thing... just
goes to show you how clueless the media is about nuclear power.. LOL
You would think that they could get someone on there that has a clue...
This is the media on anything technical
(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/30/Snake_fail.jpg) (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2856)
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The solution to all problems. The hope for change and the change for hope. It doesn't get much better than this....
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I was watching President Obama's talk today on NBC and one of the reporters asked
the President if we were going to help Japan by sending coolant over to them
as soon as possible. He sounded as if he believed that we do need to send coolant.
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I was watching President Obama's talk today on NBC and one of the reporters asked
the President if we were going to help Japan by sending coolant over to them
as soon as possible. He sounded as if he believed that we do need to send coolant.
To be fair, he couldn't just call her a dumbass and move on. He also couldn't exactly give her a lesson either in the format.
And if you think that he is going to be personally involved in this.... Not so much. This does however provide a good indication of public
knowledge on reactors and show how large the biggest enemy of nuclear expansion (ignorance) really is. But seriously, what coolant did we send?
Is this also an indication of just how steep the bs they feed us on the news really is?
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Japan is an island... aren't they surrounded by coolant?
lots and lots of salty coolant ;)
anyway. This is a strange article. Guy seems to take both sides of the fence in one go lol
http://www.counterpunch.org/alvarez03112011.html
Obviously he has no clue what he's speaking about. But a mostly objective article.
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Hello Drayer54,
That makes sense about the President not being able to just call her a 'dumbass' but
I do wish people would learn a bit more about nuclear power and relax a little.
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lots and lots of salty coolant ;)
anyway. This is a strange article. Guy seems to take both sides of the fence in one go lol
http://www.counterpunch.org/alvarez03112011.html
Obviously he has no clue what he's speaking about. But a mostly objective article.
Hmm...he must have spent 15 minutes on google searching for information for this article.
"However, because of the reactor remains at a very high temperature, radiation levels are rising on the turbine building – forcing to plant operators to vent radioactive steam into the environment."
And then he goes on to say that at least the Japanese plants have concrete/steel containments that can prevent the release of radioactivity. ::) Whats the turbine building have to do with the release of radiation?!
Dont the Japanese use PWRs similar to ours over here in the states?
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Hmm...he must have spent 15 minutes on google searching for information for this article.
"However, because of the reactor remains at a very high temperature, radiation levels are rising on the turbine building – forcing to plant operators to vent radioactive steam into the environment."
And then he goes on to say that at least the Japanese plants have concrete/steel containments that can prevent the release of radioactivity. ::) Whats the turbine building have to do with the release of radiation?!
Dont the Japanese use PWRs similar to ours over here in the states?
Most of their plants are BWR's, the one in question is a BWR.
edit: so yeah, a turbine can have a LOT to do with releasing radiation ;)
that said, dont they have their SRV's vented to a torus? I dont see the issues here. Why do they feel the need to vent to atmosphere?
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Most of their plants are BWR's, the one in question is a BWR.
Makes sense then. I was under the impression they were using plants similar in design to ours from the light-water reactor standpoint. I've only caught a small glimpse of the news on these events.
Knowing now that this is a BWR plant, I can see where it is vital they get the "prestone" into the core pronto... ;D
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edit: so yeah, a turbine can have a LOT to do with releasing radiation ;)
Yes sir indeed. ;) I shouldn't have assumed. Makes me look like the danged media... :-X
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Makes sense then. I was under the impression they were using plants similar in design to ours from the light-water reactor standpoint. I've only caught a small glimpse of the news on these events.
Knowing now that this is a BWR plant, I can see where it is vital they get the "prestone" into the core pronto... ;D
lol yeah ;)
Im still not understanding why they need to vent to atmosphere though. From what I can tell they have a bwr 6
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lol yeah ;)
Im still not understanding why they need to vent to atmosphere though. From what I can tell they have a bwr 6
Suppression pool (Torus) is at too high of a pressure? Venting to atm to help reduce the amount of water in the Torus? ???
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lol yeah ;)
Im still not understanding why they need to vent to atmosphere though. From what I can tell they have a bwr 6
Another plant you didn't license on? ;)
Think about it, volume of torus vs. BTUs from decay heat. At some point you need a larger heat rejection volume.
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Suppression pool (Torus) is at too high of a pressure? Venting to atm to help reduce the amount of water in the Torus? ???
Im really waiting for mr smarty pants to come and explain everything. To my understanding, the suppression pool is designed to accomodate all SRV's lifting, as well as provide LPCS and HPCS source water, with backups from condensate storage if need be. Wondering if their plant doesnt have a RCIC....?
some peice this together for me, im getting a headache from using cryptic information from media. So far I've seen wild ranges from simple failure of EDG's to massive piping failures in the coolant system.
Another plant you didn't license on? ;)
Think about it, volume of torus vs. BTUs from decay heat. At some point you need a larger heat rejection volume.
No thats why its giving me a headache :( From system design stuff on our BWR 6, the suppression pool accomodates all those things, and we run the RCIC pump off it as well.
edit: and couldnt you just use the massive CST to use as a surge volume for expansion???
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Where's our BWR master when we need him? Broadzilla, we need your assistance please!
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No thats why its giving me a headache :( From system design stuff on our BWR 6, the suppression pool accomodates all those things, and we run the RCIC pump off it as well.
So much for the subtle hints then....they just had a frickin' 8.9...think they have offsite power? Would the drive-by media be able to accurately describe "one diesel generator failed to start"? Maybe some failed snubbers and pipe supports allowing piping failures in suppression pool cooling? All we have are a few ephemeral wisps of half-wrong information coming from an anti-nuclear press that worships Twitterbaters and Facebook stalkers. Since the Japanese don't have either of those quantities on-site, the media has to resort to:
" GAH-ZIRRRAH !!! "
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So much for the subtle hints then....they just had a frickin' 8.9...think they have offsite power? Would the drive-by media be able to accurately describe "one diesel generator failed to start"? Maybe some failed snubbers and pipe supports allowing piping failures in suppression pool cooling? All we have are a few ephemeral wisps of half-wrong information coming from an anti-nuclear press that worships Twitterbaters and Facebook stalkers. Since the Japanese don't have either of those quantities on-site, the media has to resort to:
" GAH-ZIRRRAH !!! "
hahaha :D
RCIC doesnt use electrical power. they have their bat-trees runnin, and I dont see why they need to vent to atmosphere yet. Piping failures would be the only real explanation that I can think of. Waiting for the licensees to chime in.
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The United State is rushing coolant to a Japanese nuclear reactor whose cooling system failed after a power outage caused by Friday's massive earthquake off northeastern Japan.
Speaking at the White House Friday, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said U.S. Air Force planes were carrying "some really important coolant" to the Fukushima Daiichi plant.
Japan's nuclear safety agency said pressure inside one of six boiling water reactors at the plant had risen to 1.5 times the level considered normal.
To reduce the pressure, Japanese authorizes will release slightly radioactive vapor. The agency said the radioactive element in the vapor will not affect the environment or human health.
The nuclear reactor failure triggered evacuation orders for about 3,000 residents as the government declared its first-ever state of emergency at a nuclear plant.
Neil Sheehan, a spokesman for the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, said staff were trying to collect more information on what was happening.
"They are busy trying to get coolant to the core area," Sheehan said. "The big thing is trying to get power to the cooling systems."
President Obama said he asked Energy Secretary Steven Chu to provide any assistance necessary.
Speaking at a news conference Friday, he added that he told Chu to "also to make sure that if in fact there have been breaches in this safety system on these nuclear plants that they're dealt with right away."
David Albright, a former weapons inspector for the United Nations, told Fox News that when a nuclear reactor is safely shut down, there is still a lot of radioactive material in the core that produces heat.
"If you don't extract that heat with cool water, it can reach a point where it can melt the fuel," he said. "It's an urgent matter to get the cool water flowing through the reactor."
After the quake triggered a power outage, a backup generator also failed and the cooling system was unable to supply water to cool the 460-megawatt No. 1 reactor, though at least one backup cooling system is being used. The reactor core remains hot even after a shutdown.
The agency said plant workers are scrambling to restore cooling water supply at the plant but there is no prospect for immediate success.
If the outage in the cooling system persists, eventually radiation could leak out into the environment, and, in the worst case, could cause a reactor meltdown, a nuclear safety agency official said on condition of anonymity, citing sensitivity of the issue.
But Albright said that risk appeared to be "very small from the available reporting."
"But nonetheless, you can still have a buildup of radioactive gas, and you can have a buildup of pressure," he said. "Sometimes they want to release that pressure by venting, perhaps a containment dome."
Another official at the nuclear safety agency, Yuji Kakizaki, said that plant workers were cooling the reactor with a secondary cooling system, which is not as effective as the regular cooling method.
Kakizaki said officials have confirmed that the emergency cooling system -- the last-ditch cooling measure to prevent the reactor from the meltdown -- is intact and could kick in if needed.
"That's as a last resort, and we have not reached that stage yet," Kakizaki added.
He said both the state of emergency and evacuation order are meant to be a precaution.
"We launched the measure so we can be fully prepared for the worst scenario," he said. "We are using all our might to deal with the situation."
Defense Ministry official Ippo Maeyama said the ministry has dispatched dozens of troops trained for chemical disasters to the Fukushima plant in case of a radiation leak, along with four vehicles designed for use in atomic, biological and chemical warfare.
High-pressure pumps can temporarily cool a reactor in this state with battery power, even when electricity is down, according to Arnold Gundersen, a nuclear engineer who used to work in the U.S. nuclear industry. Batteries would go dead within hours but could be replaced.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/11/AR2011031103673.html
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If they lost all power, and the ability to use hpci/rcic, then they would have blown down the reactor to the suppression pool by now. Assuming they also lost power to containment cooling and sprays, is the only reason I could see them venting to atmosphere.
Since it appears they've lost all power, they are no doubt into the T-200s for venting. The reactor should be 2/3rds covered, at least, and down near 50-150 pounds if they are anything like ours... meaning safe. Decay heat is also much less than 1% by now.
Of course, this is also assuming they have TRIPS similar to ours.
A loss of all offsite power was one of my fortes at Peach Bottom, but admittedly, an earthquake throws a wrench into the works that isn't often covered over in my neck of the woods. However, there would have to be A LOT of things go wrong that would prevent them from keeping the reactor depressurized right now. That is why it is my wager that the reactor is fine, and that containment is their concern. Again though, I don't know what they have in the way of say.. diesel driven fire pumps or back up nitrogen to ADS. The media keeps saying reactor pressure though, which means a lot of thing would have to go wrong. Besides a loss of power, they would have had to lose nitrogen to their ADS valves, which require no power to operate. If there is one thing you should be able to always do at a BWR, its blow the reactor down to the suppression feature. So not knowing exactly what they have/don't have, or that what the media is saying is accurate, there really is no way to tell. I am just trying to think about what I'd be doing if I was back at Peach Bottom and this happened.
One thing I do know is that I would love to be in their control room right now. ;D
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What a shame. As long as I have an intact RCS and an Auxiliary Feed Pump (steam turbine driven), I can keep everything safe with no power. It has already been accomplished when a tornado took out the switch yard in 1998.
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What a shame. As long as I have an intact RCS and an Auxiliary Feed Pump (steam turbine driven), I can keep everything safe with no power. It has already been accomplished when a tornado took out the switch yard in 1998.
I am not sure the point? It is a hit against BWRs? BWRs require no power to remain safe, either, and they don't even need an intact RCS. That was the point of everything I said above your post. Throw an 8.9 earthquake into the mix and that changes things. You can't say for sure that you wouldn't be in a similar position had such an event occurred at your plant. The key word in your statement is "intact." Who knows what they have intact. That is what I was trying to figure out based on what crappy info the media is putting out. They've apparently lost "intactness" to a lot of things.
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Oh and I just read what someone posted above, and in there they said the "emergency cooling system is intact and can kick in if needed." So, in a nut shell, they are fine and it is simply poor reporting occurring. I am not sure what system they are alluding to exactly, but any intact ECCS system and the reactor is A-OK.
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I've read--MSNBC FWIW--that there is radiation detected in the control room of Unit 1.
1000 times normal? Who knows.
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That's a lot of nerve on the part of the media--yes they can have a lot of nerve--if this information is not at all correct.
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That's a lot of nerve on the part of the media--yes they can have a lot of nerve--if this information is not at all correct.
Well a silver lining to this. If they report all these catastrophic conditions, and nothing ends up happening, that will bolster our safety reputation. eating an 8.9 earthquake and coming out on top seems like good publicity in the long run.
Hope they are getting things sorted.
justin are these ads valves you are talking about the "shotgun valves" I heard about?
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I was thinking that earlier this morning about bolstering the nuclear reputation. That would be excellent for the nuclear industry as a whole. If this somehow happened
here in the U.S.--thinking sh**ts and grins here only--I would trust the well trained operators to do what they are highly
trained and smart to do.
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Well a silver lining to this. If they report all these catastrophic conditions, and nothing ends up happening, that will bolster our safety reputation. eating an 8.9 earthquake and coming out on top seems like good publicity in the long run.
Hope they are getting things sorted.
justin are these ads valves you are talking about the "shotgun valves" I heard about?
I don't know, never heard that term. ADS valves at peach bottom were "automatic depressurization system" valves. Meaning, if the sh*t really hit the fan, the reactor would depressurize itself, automatically. However, as far as I know, one of the first things all BWR operators do in the US is defeat the "automatic" part of this system during a scenario because you don't want an uncontrolled depressurization of the vessel and subsequent flooding with cold water. One of the key BWR operator fundamentals then becomes depressurizing the reactor when it becomes necessary, since it will no longer do it itself. So, all things being equal, if the sh*t hit the fan there big time, they should have something similar which would allow them to depressurize the reactor rapidly to the suppression feature, and maintain it that way almost indefinitely, so long as they have the ability to remove heat from containment.
"Shot gun valves?" Almost sounds like the explosive valves used to inject "standby liquid control," the one shot tank of borated water used during an ATWS to help shut down the reactor.
Oh, and to be more in depth, the "ADS valves" are simply a select few SRVs (safety relief valves) that have this extra special purpose. We had 11 SRVs at Peach Bottom, 5 of them were ADS valves. We also had 2 safety valves that lifted higher than the SRVs, for a total of 13 over-pressure protection valves.
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I don't know, never heard that term. ADS valves at peach bottom were "automatic depressurization system" valves. Meaning, if the sh*t really hit the fan, the reactor would depressurize itself, automatically. However, as far as I know, one of the first things all BWR operators do in the US is defeat the "automatic" part of this system during a scenario because you don't want an uncontrolled depressurization of the vessel and subsequent flooding with cold water. One of the key BWR operator fundamentals then becomes depressurizing the reactor when it becomes necessary, since it will no longer do it itself. So, all things being equal, if the sh*t hit the fan there big time, they should have something similar which would allow them to depressurize the reactor rapidly to the suppression feature, and maintain it that way almost indefinitely, so long as they have the ability to remove heat from containment.
"Shot gun valves?" Almost sounds like the explosive valves used to inject "standby liquid control," the one shot tank of borated water used during an ATWS to help shut down the reactor.
Oh, and to be more in depth, the "ADS valves" are simply a select few SRVs (safety relief valves) that have this extra special purpose. We had 11 SRVs at Peach Bottom, 5 of them were ADS valves. We also had 2 safety valves that lifted higher than the SRVs, for a total of 13 over-pressure protection valves.
Ah, yes. That what I was thinkin of. and yeah, the SLC valves where what I was thinking of. the term "shotgun valves" has been used loosely around here. Thanks! :) 11 srv's eh. 16 here at RBS... No big deal ;)
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I've read--MSNBC FWIW--that there is radiation detected in the control room of Unit 1.
1000 times normal? Who knows.
Might be a good time for a separate thread on " Do It Yourself Iodine and Xenon sampling at home"
if the media is right, we should have some interesting air samples in the Pacific Northwest in a day or so...
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16 here at RBS... No big deal ;)
That would be a function of containment design I would think, considering RBS is 900 something MWs and PB is 1100 something MWs. PB had the upside down lightbulb and torus containment though, AKA Mark I containment.
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Might be a good time for a separate thread on " Do It Yourself Iodine and Xenon sampling at home"
if the media is right, we should have some interesting air samples in the Pacific Northwest in a day or so...
Yeah that is what I am thinking. There is no way I believe that report, if the previous report of intact ECCS are true. 1000 times normal in control room? That is fuel damage.
Again, I recognize that the 8.9 quake near by could cause who knows what damage.
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That would be a function of containment design I would think, considering RBS is 900 something MWs and PB is 1100 something MWs. PB had the upside down lightbulb and torus containment though, AKA Mark II containment.
Yup. We dont have a torus, so does that mean we have a "Mark I"? 987 MW's :D
1000xs normal seems to be absurd, media frenzy.
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Yup. We dont have a torus, so does that mean we have a "Mark I"? 987 MW's :D
1000xs normal seems to be absurd, media frenzy.
No, you have a Mark III.
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No, you have a Mark III.
sheesh. Im done for the day lol. thanks.
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Charlie,
Check out the last 4 pages. ;)
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/basic-ref/teachers/03.pdf (http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/basic-ref/teachers/03.pdf)
Basic knowledge but some good illustrations of GE BWR containments...
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I am not sure the point? It is a hit against BWRs? BWRs require no power to remain safe, either, and they don't even need an intact RCS. That was the point of everything I said above your post. Throw an 8.9 earthquake into the mix and that changes things. You can't say for sure that you wouldn't be in a similar position had such an event occurred at your plant. The key word in your statement is "intact." Who knows what they have intact. That is what I was trying to figure out based on what crappy info the media is putting out. They've apparently lost "intactness" to a lot of things.
There is a lot of technical BS going out through the news. The amount of fear being put out is not good for anyone. The point of the post is to illustrate that as long as the RCS remains intact, a PWR or BWR should be able to stay safe. The news is reporting that their systems are intact. One news website is saying that the pressures are rising.
People are scared by things they don't understand. I know this all too well because I described a RX startup to a family member once and used the term "taking the reactor critical". They just about flipped out.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/11/japan.nuclear/index.html?hpt=T1
There is a part that says "remains at a high temperature" because it "cannot cool down." What does this really mean in the context of the situation?
Now to the average person this sounds scary. If I were dealing with a similar issue of no power, I would want to stay hot and pressurized until I got my power back. You would then need to make your 10CFR50.54x call and keep trying to get power back.
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Seems like a station blackout (loss of offsite power with failure of both divisions of diesel generators). If that is the case, injection is based on steam-driven, DC-power valve systems, so you don't want to depress or else you lose your injection motive force. Couple that with no containment cooling for the steam-driven exhaust (these containment system are AC), and you could have a primary containment venting need. 1000x rad levels in the control room could be in the neighborhood of 10 mr/hr, which is not fuel failure.
The plant is an early BWR-4, similar to Hatch, Brunswick or Browns Ferry. Most US plants have added a Station Blackout Diesel to recharge batteries in such an instance, since it's such a high Core Damage Frequency contributor.
The station blackout procedure is an ugly, beyond design-basis procedure. It just seems to break all the rules of the other Emergency Operating Procedures.
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food for thought.
thank your renaissance! answers a LOT of questions!
And more garbage...
Apparently they dont have any backup systems....
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From IAEA
Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA’s Incident and Emergency Centre (IEC) that officials are working to restore power to the cooling systems of the Unit 2 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. Mobile electricity supplies have arrived at the site.
Japanese officials have also reported that pressure is increasing inside the Unit 1 reactor’s containment, and the officials have decided to vent the containment to lower the pressure. The controlled release will be filtered to retain radiation within the containment.
Three reactors at the plant were operating at the time of the earthquake, and the water level in each of the reactor vessels remains above the fuel elements, according to Japanese authorities.
The IAEA’s IEC continues to liaise with the Japanese authorities, and is in full response mode to monitor the situation closely round the clock.
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Seems like a station blackout (loss of offsite power with failure of both divisions of diesel generators). If that is the case, injection is based on steam-driven, DC-power valve systems, so you don't want to depress or else you lose your injection motive force. Couple that with no containment cooling for the steam-driven exhaust (these containment system are AC), and you could have a primary containment venting need. 1000x rad levels in the control room could be in the neighborhood of 10 mr/hr, which is not fuel failure.
The plant is an early BWR-4, similar to Hatch, Brunswick or Browns Ferry. Most US plants have added a Station Blackout Diesel to recharge batteries in such an instance, since it's such a high Core Damage Frequency contributor.
The station blackout procedure is an ugly, beyond design-basis procedure. It just seems to break all the rules of the other Emergency Operating Procedures.
At PB it most certainly was fuel failure.
That said, I agree, like I said above, if hpci and rcic were lost, they will have depressurized... assuming power was lost to all other make up sources, which seems to be the case.
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From IAEA
Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA’s Incident and Emergency Centre (IEC) that officials are working to restore power to the cooling systems of the Unit 2 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. Mobile electricity supplies have arrived at the site.
Japanese officials have also reported that pressure is increasing inside the Unit 1 reactor’s containment, and the officials have decided to vent the containment to lower the pressure. The controlled release will be filtered to retain radiation within the containment.
Three reactors at the plant were operating at the time of the earthquake, and the water level in each of the reactor vessels remains above the fuel elements, according to Japanese authorities.
The IAEA’s IEC continues to liaise with the Japanese authorities, and is in full response mode to monitor the situation closely round the clock.
Seems my earlier prediction was correct.
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10 mr/hr post shutdown would indicate some sort of fuel failure in a bwr 4.
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Insert Quote
Quote from: Charlie Murphy on Today at 18:30:23
Yup. We dont have a torus, so does that mean we have a "Mark I"? 987 MW's Cheesy
1000xs normal seems to be absurd, media frenzy.
No, you have a Mark III.
Charlie....
This is why the NRC wants you to be at a plant for 6 months to start license class....to learn your plant
Of course the Nukeworker search feature would have led you to this description of your plant...
http://www.nukeworker.com/maps/facility/RiverBend1.html (http://www.nukeworker.com/maps/facility/RiverBend1.html)
[OT] [hijack] [spank] [Flamer] [devious] [stir] :old: :->
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i was always happy i wasn't one of the 100 pound twigs that had to volunteer to inspect the downcomers and ring header post outage!
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Tokyo Electric Power Company's news page, with press releases in English giving details on plant status:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/index-e.html (http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/index-e.html)
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http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fuel-may-be-damaged-at-japan-nuclear-plant-report-2011-03-11 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fuel-may-be-damaged-at-japan-nuclear-plant-report-2011-03-11)
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0042 update:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/japan-warns-of-meltdown-at-quake-hit-plant-kyodo-2011-03-12
High possibility of fuel melting/melted.
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Stock up on shrimp, salmon, multivitamins with iodine, soybeans, seaweed, garlic. Avoid spinach, cauliflower.
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Weird. I'm reading "Three Mile Island" right now and just read the parts of the accident and initial responses this morning...
Not a bad book so far. Not being a 70's era nukeworker it has been interesting reading about the origins of the nuclear debate.
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I really wish someone that knew what they were talking about over there would give us a detailed system status. I would really like to know how they got there, if they did. I am putting my brain through all kinds of scenarios to try to get to melted fuel. It is hard to do, but like I said before, an 8.9 quake changes everything.
The only way I can see it, without knowing what they have/lost, is operator knowledge and abilities. Perhaps they don't have a TRIP system like we do here, followed by SAMPs. Anyone have any idea the rigor of their operator licensing programs there?
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Japanese news servers are running slow, oddly enough, but I screenshot this, they say from their nuclear safety agency. Kyodo isn't exactly HuffPo..
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Japanese news servers are running slow, oddly enough, but I screenshot this, they say from their nuclear safety agency. Kyodo isn't exactly HuffPo..
Good work keeping this up to date and no, it's no huffpo :-> , I like where your head is at realizing that these japanese based commodities are going to take off
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http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031220-e.html
TOKYO ELECTRIC POWER COMPANY
Corporate Information
Press Releases
Press Release (Mar 12,2011)
Plant Status of Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station (as of 1PM March 12th )
Unit 1 (shut down at 2:48PM on March 11th)
- Reactor is shut down and reactor water level is stable.
- Offsite power is available.
- At 8:19am, there was an alarm indicating that one of the control rods
was not properly inserted, however, at 10:43am the alarm was automatically
called off. Other control rods has been confirmed that they are fully
inserted (reactor is in subcritical status)
- Status of main steam isolation valve: closed
- Injection of water into the reactor had been done by the Reactor Core
Isolation Cooling System, but at 3:48AM, injection by Make-up Water
Condensate System begun.
- At 6:08PM, we announced the increase in reactor containment vessel
pressure, assumed to be due to leakage of reactor coolant. However, we
do not believe there is leakage of reactor coolant in the containment
vessel at this moment.
- At 5:22AM, the temperature of the suppression chamber exceeded 100
degrees. As the reactor pressure suppression function was lost, at 5:22AM,
it was determined that a specific incident stipulated in article 15,
clause 1 has occurred.
- We decided to prepare implementing measures to reduce the pressure of
the reactor containment vessel (partial discharge of air containing
radioactive materials) in order to fully secure safety. This preparation
work started at around 9:43am.
Unit 2 (shut down at 2:48PM on March 11th)
- Reactor is shut down and reactor water level is stable.
- Offsite power is available.
- Control rods are fully inserted (reactor is in subcritical status)
- Status of main steam isolation valve: closed
- Injection of water into the reactor had been done by the Reactor Core
Isolation Cooling System, but at 4:50AM, injection by Make-up Water
Condensate System begun.
- We do not believe there is leakage of reactor coolant in the containment
vessel.
- At 5:22AM, the temperature of the suppression chamber exceeded 100
degrees. As the reactor pressure suppression function was lost, at 5:22AM,
it was determined that a specific incident stipulated in article 15,
clause 1 has occurred.
- We decided to prepare implementing measures to reduce the pressure of
the reactor containment vessel (partial discharge of air containing
radioactive materials) in order to fully secure safety. This preparation
work commenced at around 10:33AM and completed at 10:58AM.
Unit 3 (shut down at 2:48PM on March 11th)
- Reactor is shut down and reactor water level is stable.
- Offsite power is available.
- Control rods are fully inserted (reactor is in subcritical status)
- Status of main steam isolation valve: closed
- Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System is turned off. Currently,
injection of water into the reactor is done by Make-up Water Condensate
System.
- We do not believe there is leakage of reactor coolant in the containment
vessel.
- We decided to prepare implementing measures to reduce the pressure of
the reactor containment vessel (partial discharge of air containing
radioactive materials) in order to fully secure safety. This preparation
work commenced at around 12:08PM and completed at 12:13AM.
- At 12:15PM, the reactor achieved cold shut down.
Unit 4 (shut down at 2:48PM on March 11th)
- Reactor is shut down and reactor water level is stable.
- Offsite power is available.
- Control rods are fully inserted (reactor is in subcritical status)
- Status of main steam isolation valve: closed
- Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System is turned off. Currently,
injection of water into the reactor is done by Make-up Water Condensate
System.
- We do not believe there is leakage of reactor coolant in the containment
vessel.
- In order to cool down the reactor, injection of water into the reactor
had been done by the Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System, however,
At 6:07AM, the temperature of the suppression chamber exceeded 100
degrees. As the reactor pressure suppression function was lost,
at 6:07AM, it was determined that a specific incident stipulated in
article 15,clause 1 has occurred.
- We decided to prepare implementing measures to reduce the pressure of
the reactor containment vessel (partial discharge of air containing
radioactive materials) in order to fully secure safety. This preparation
work commenced at around 11:44AM and completed at 11:52AM.
Indication from monitoring posts installed at the site boundary did not
show any difference from ordinary level.
No radiation impact to the external environment has been confirmed. We
will continue to monitor in detail the possibility of radioactive material
being discharged from exhaust stack or discharge canal.
There is no missing person within the power station.
We are presently checking on the site situation of each plant while
keeping the situation of aftershock and Tsunami in mind.
A seriously injured worker is still trapped in the crane operating console
of the exhaust stack and his breathing and pulse cannot be confirmed.
Currently, the rescue efforts are under way.
A worker was lightly injured spraining his left ankle and cutting both
knees when he fell while walking at the site. After medical treatment,
the worker is resting in the office.
ALL Right Reserved Copylight 2
Legal Notices
-
Nice find. Looks like the reactors are ok based on that. They all had rcic and condensate available, so they had adequate core cooling the whole time.
Has something changed since this status update to cause core damage?
-
This was posted just before the other post.
And here is a link to all updates:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/index-e.html
*********************************
TOKYO ELECTRIC POWER COMPANY
Corporate Information
Press Releases
Press Release (Mar 12,2011)
Plant Status of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station (as of 1PM March 12th )
All 6 units of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station have been shut down.
Unit 1(Shut down)
- Reactor has been shut down and steam in reactor has been cooled by
isolation condenser, but it is now stopped. Because pressure level in
reactor containment vessel is increasing, following the national
government instruction, we are implementing a measure to reduce the
pressure of the reactor containment vessels in order to fully secure
safety.
Reactor water level is decreasing, we will continue injecting water step
by step.
Unit 2(Shut down)
- Reactor has been shut down and we continue injecting water by Reactor
Core Isolation Cooling System. Current reactor water level is lower than
normal level, but the water level is steady. Following the national
government instruction, we are preparing to implement a measure to reduce
the pressure of the reactor containment vessels in order to fully secure
safety.
Unit 3(Shut down)
- Reactor has been shut down and we continue injecting water by Reactor
Core Isolation Cooling System. Following the national government
instruction, we are preparing to implement a measure to reduce the
pressure of the reactor containment vessels in order to fully secure
safety.
- Currently, we do not believe there is any reactor coolant leakage inside
the reactor containment vessel.
Unit 4 (shut down due to regular inspection)
- Reactor has been shut down and sufficient level of reactor coolant to
ensure safety is maintained.
- Currently, we do not believe there is any reactor coolant leakage inside
the reactor containment vessel.
Unit 5 (outage due to regular inspection)
- Reactor has been shut down and sufficient level of reactor coolant to
ensure safety is maintained.
- Currently, we do not believe there is any reactor coolant leakage inside
the reactor containment vessel.
Unit 6 (outage due to regular inspection)
- Reactor has been shut down and sufficient level of reactor coolant to
ensure safety is maintained.
- Currently, we do not believe there is any reactor coolant leakage inside
the reactor containment vessel.
We are implementing a measure to reduce the pressure of the reactor
containment vessels,
but, one of our employees working in the Unit 1 was irradiated at over
100mSv level(106.3mSv). Because of absence of industrial physician, so he
will be diagnosed at a later day.
We measured radioactive materials inside of the nuclear power station area
(outdoor) by monitoring car and confirmed that radioactive materials level
is higher than ordinary level. Also, the level at monitoring post is higher
than ordinary level.
We will continue to monitor in detail the possibility of radioactive
material being discharged from exhaust stack or discharge canal.
The national government has instructed evacuation for those local residents
within 10km radius of the periphery because it's possible that radioactive
materials are discharged.
Two workers of a cooperative firm were injured in the nuclear power station
premise. One with a broken bone was transported to the hospital by an
ambulance and the other by a company car.
Also, one of our employees could not stand up holding his left chest, so
was transported to the hospital by an ambulance
Further, there are 2 TEPCO employees whose presence has not been confirmed.
In addition, one subcontract worker standing near important earth
quake-proof building was unconscious and transported to the hospital by an
ambulance.
We are presently checking on the site situation of each plant while keeping
the situation of aftershock and Tsunami in mind.
-
Nice find. Looks like the reactors are ok based on that. They all had rcic and condensate available, so they had adequate core cooling the whole time.
Has something changed since this status update to cause core damage?
"Make-Up Water Condensate" is just the Condensate Storage Tank System, i.e. RCIC's ex-containment suction (it's not "condensate" as in feedwater via big AC pumps). It looks like they exceeded Pressure Suppression (PSP) capability in their containment, due to a torus water level / pressure combination. Unprecedented.
-
There's been an explosion at the plant.
t=43s
Details thus far are sketchy.
-
There's been an explosion at the plant.
t=43s
Details thus far are sketchy.
That video is horrific. They just decimated secondary containment - let hope it wasn't caused by the overpressurization of primary containment...
-
I don't know the configuration of their plants, but it looks like the entire Reactor Building just disentigrated. There isn't anything I know of that could do that besides a major overpressurization. God help that place.
-
News says that primary containment is still intact, and that they are going into primary containment flooding, the last resort of Severe Accident Mitigation procedures. Given the circumstances, this is good news.
-
According to ANS links, it was a hydrogen explosion... :o
There were injuries to plant personnel. My prayers are with them - they are living the reality of every nasty E-plan drill we ever played.....
That level of hydrogen possibly indicates cladding overheating? (if I remember my E-Plan training correctly).
Flooding the plant / vessel with seawater. That's not recoverable. Between the 2 sites, I think 4 reactors are in this shape - not good. I see oil prices rising on this news....
http://ansnuclearcafe.org/ (http://ansnuclearcafe.org/) (Thanks Grantime for the link)
-
STRATFOR time :D
http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20110312-red-alert-nuclear-meltdown-quake-damaged-japanese-plant?utm_source=redalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=110312%284%29&utm_content=readmore&elq=d069624ee7394c6d95bed6aab634bf54
they have videos towards the bottom.
-
that looks more like a turbine building explosion to me that blew away the blowout panels on the refueling floor. wanna bet they released hydrogen from the generator and it went poof?
primary containment flooding is not a samg, it's an eop in a bwr 4.
-
"Make-Up Water Condensate" is just the Condensate Storage Tank System, i.e. RCIC's ex-containment suction (it's not "condensate" as in feedwater via big AC pumps). It looks like they exceeded Pressure Suppression (PSP) capability in their containment, due to a torus water level / pressure combination. Unprecedented.
not entirely unprecedented and in fact quite possible if you've lost offsite power and are relying on dumping heat to the torus.
-
STRATFOR time :D
http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20110312-red-alert-nuclear-meltdown-quake-damaged-japanese-plant?utm_source=redalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=110312%284%29&utm_content=readmore&elq=d069624ee7394c6d95bed6aab634bf54
they have videos towards the bottom.
Too many inaccurate comparisons to Chernobyl for me...in the article about the damaged reactors in Japan, it states that the "reactor’s containment structure exploded."???
I havent seen that reported yet...but correct me if iam wrong..
i would caution to use the above link as a source of intelligent information.
-
"Make-Up Water Condensate" is just the Condensate Storage Tank System, i.e. RCIC's ex-containment suction (it's not "condensate" as in feedwater via big AC pumps). It looks like they exceeded Pressure Suppression (PSP) capability in their containment, due to a torus water level / pressure combination. Unprecedented.
I agree, however I assuned that if that was in tact, then they also had condensatd for a lp source. Of course, I know as much as you do about their situation... nothing. Thanks for you opinion though.
-
that looks more like a turbine building explosion to me that blew away the blowout panels on the refueling floor. wanna bet they released hydrogen from the generator and it went poof?
primary containment flooding is not a samg, it's an eop in a bwr 4.
I haven't been paying too close attention, but before I left, the news said it was the containment building. One pinhead was calling it a chernobly level event. /rollseyes. One commenter said that this says a lot about the robustness of the design considering the core was intact after all of this.
I foresee the anti-nukes latching onto this with all the bad info.
-
check out the explosion, looks exactly like a generator h2 release.
-
I agree, however I assuned that if that was in tact, then they also had condensatd for a lp source. Of course, I know as much as you do about their situation... nothing. Thanks for you opinion though.
Why would you assume a unit with no AC power in station blackout would have condensate? I thought that procedure was your forte?
-
Why would you assume a unit with no AC power in station blackout would have condensate? I thought that procedure was your forte?
Because of news reports that they had power.
-
primary containment flooding is not a samg, it's an eop in a bwr 4.
I am sitting here in a BWR/4 looking at the primary containment flooding chart, and it says SAMG at the bottom. Hmmm.....
-
yeah you're probably right on that with the samg. they were changing some of the flow charts when i left the bwr world.
they lost offsite power so condensate would not be available
i'll guarantee they are not flooding containment. i'll venture the sea water is from the fire suppresion system
-
I am sitting here in a BWR/4 looking at the primary containment flooding chart, and it says SAMG at the bottom. Hmmm.....
Could you outline what had to go wrong for them to get there?
-
lol he can't because it's impossible without a huge arse breach in the reactor vessel.
-
You get to primary containment flooding if you have no other reliable injection source to the vessel. Continued station blackout gets you most of the way there - an explosion in secondary containment does the rest.
Earthquake causes loss of grid
Loss of offsite power causes scram, Main Steam Isolation, and diesel generator start
Tsunami wave trips diesels an hour later – station blackout
Steam-driven systems are only means of injection – it is necessary to stay at pressure to maintain motive force
No AC means no containment cooling – HPCI should not be used due to its very high exhaust steam discharge into containment
Level is held low, in part to minimize injection (and resultant RCIC-exhaust containment heatup) and in part to stay on DC-powered level instruments
Containment venting becomes necessary to avoid overpressurizing containment – they probably were considering venting early with uncertainty of quake damage to containment
8 hr battery coping time is exceeded – RCIC becomes non-functional in auto
Local manual operation of RCIC becomes necessary (news reports said 4 operators were in the reactor building basement), meanwhile level continues to lower, challenging fuel
Hydrogen buildup in reactor building causes explosion, obliterating secondary containment and possibly damaging injection penetrations (most are AC-powered anyway). News reports said there were on Steam Condensing mode after the MSIV closure, which creates a direct vessel dome path to the RHR heat exchangers.
Enter containment flooding.
-
bs not credible
once they covered the core none of that was credible.
and they did cover the core.
the explosion emanated outside containment and it looks like the blowout panels did their job.
there is no mechanism for getting hydrogen inside the secondary containment and a internal drywell explosion is impossible.
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STRATFOR time :D
http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20110312-red-alert-nuclear-meltdown-quake-damaged-japanese-plant?utm_source=redalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=110312%284%29&utm_content=readmore&elq=d069624ee7394c6d95bed6aab634bf54
they have videos towards the bottom.
This is a very good example of a bad article. Just the first few paragraphs are bullshit. We need to do a better job teaching the public what a meltdown really is (decay heat).
What will this mean for the future of nuclear power? Will the Nuclear Renaissance (not the forum name) be put off again for a few decades?
-
blowout panels?!? did you see the video - something tore secondary containment apart with extreme prejudice. frankly i'm surprised primary containment survived that intact.
why would the Japan-NRC equivalent say that a partial melt was likely, if you think they have full core coverage? why are they saying right now that they are entering primary containment flooding, which we all know is a last resort?
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yeah those are the bowout panels and metal wall surrounding the reactor building, not the structure itself.
no one said anyone was entering primary containment flooding, what they said was saea water was entering the containment, there is a difference.
they had an explosion in the turbine building
let me ask, exactly how many licenses, specifically sro licenses have you obtained?
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They had an explosion in secondary containment. This has been put out multiple times.
From mulitple sources: "Government officials painted a hopeful picture, saying crews had begun implementing a backup plan to flood the reactor containment structure with sea water, a plan that will take 2 days." Sounds exactly like containment flooding.
I have 1 BWR/4 SRO license, same as you. I have 4 years experience engineering BWR/6s as well.
-
they said the explosion happened outside the building. released by their government.
and you used your license for?
you're babbling
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I thought that the standby liquid control was a last ditch effort in this situation. Why not blow the valves and inject sodium pentaborate?
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I thought that the standby liquid control was a last ditch effort in this situation. Why not blow the valves and inject sodium pentaborate?
SLC is for reactivity. From what I've read, reactivity isn't the problem. Cooling is. Decay heat removal will not be affected by SLC injection as far as I know....
Just the opinion of an ex-cook, RP Tech..... (with multiple fishing licenses... 8))
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lol he can't because it's impossible without a huge arse breach in the reactor vessel.
Normally I agree but the quake changes everything.
@Nuclear Renaissance, thanks for that. Good stuff.
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See 1 (explosion in secondary containment) and 2 (primary containment flooding):
At 20:30 local time Japan Sat 3/12/11 Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano announced at the press conference as follows:
1. Hydrogen explosion occurred at 15:36 in between primary containment and reactor building of Fukushima Daiichi unit 1. Walls of reactor building were blown out or damaged.
2. It was confirmed that unit 1 containment integrity was maintained. Explosion was not inside the primary containment as it is inert.
3. Radiation level at the Fukushima Daiichi site border once increased when containment vent was conducted and reached 1,015 micro Sv per hour around the time when explosion occurred; however, the radiation level turned to decrease after the explosion down to 860 at 15:40 and 70.5 micro Sv per hour at 18:58.
4. Government has agreed to TEPCO decision to fill the entire containment up with sea water. The filling sea water will contain boron. TEPCO started the work for filling up at 20:20.
-
SLC is for reactivity. From what I've read, reactivity isn't the problem. Cooling is. Decay heat removal will not be affected by SLC injection as far as I know....
Just the opinion of an ex-cook, RP Tech..... (with multiple fishing licenses... 8))
All rods are in, but in a partially-melted core, re-criticality is not necessarily assured, so boron is prudent during flooding.
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All rods are in, but in a partially-melted core, re-criticality is not necessarily assured, so boron is prudent during flooding.
Good point.
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SLC is for reactivity. From what I've read, reactivity isn't the problem. Cooling is. Decay heat removal will not be affected by SLC injection as far as I know....
Just the opinion of an ex-cook, RP Tech..... (with multiple fishing licenses... 8))
Yes, but how many poetic licenses do you have?
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Fox news just reported that there there were 3 workers sent to the hospital with symptoms of radiation sickness. It's probably BS but I guess you never know.
-
Many thanks to those who started and contributed to this thread. Accurate information is nearly impossible to find and the MSM has been horrible. Thanks to this thread, I followed the TEPCO press link and most recently found this:
Press Release (Mar 12,2011)
Plant Status of Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station (as of 8pm March 12th)
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031230-e.html
Which states among other things that:
" - Offsite power is available "
and
"- Injection of water into the reactor is done by Make-up Water Condensate
System."
This strikes me as great news!! I'm surprised this board hasn't lit up!
Sadly, they also report the fatality of a crane operator.
-
Somewhat off topic...
But what are the ramifications, if any, back here in the U.S. of the nuclear events of this weekend in Japan? Will there be a knee-jerk reaction from the (non-NRC) feds?
-
“Tokyo Electric earlier said it had lost control of pressure building up in three reactors at the Dai-Ichi power plant. Temperatures in the control room rose to higher than 100 Celsius (212 Fahrenheit), said Naoki Tsunoda, a company spokesman.” http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-12/explosion-destroys-walls-of-japan-reactor-building-nhk-reports.html
212 Deg F in the control room? That must have made it hard to work in there.
Side note- This is a great website. Many thanks to everyone who contributes.
-
they said the explosion happened outside the building. released by their government.
and you used your license for?
you're babbling
From the Japanese Government's mouth:
TOKYO, March 12 (Reuters) – Tokyo Electric Power Co plans to fill a leaking reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant with sea water to cool it down and reduce pressure in the unit, Japan’s top government spokesman said on Saturday.
“The nuclear reactor is surrounded by a steel reactor container, which is then surrounded by a concrete building,” Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said.
“The concrete building collapsed. We found out that the reactor container inside didn’t explode.”
Japan earlier in the day warned of a meltdown at the reactor at the plant, damaged when a massive earthquake and tsunami struck the northeast coast, but said the risk of radiation contamination was small.
“We’ve confirmed that the reactor container was not damaged. The explosion didn’t occur inside the reactor container. As such there was no large amount of radiation leakage outside,” he said.
"We've decided to fill the reactor container with sea water. Trade minister Kaieda has instructed us to do so. By doing this, we will use boric acid to prevent criticality."
Edano said it would take about five to 10 hours to fill the reactor core with sea water and around 10 days to complete the process.
Edano said due to the falling level of cooling water, hydrogen was generated and that leaked to the space between the building and the container and the explosion happened when the hydrogen mixed with oxygen there.
http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFTKZ00680620110312 (http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFTKZ00680620110312)
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"... Temperatures in the control room rose to higher than 100 Celsius (212 Fahrenheit), said Naoki Tsunoda, a company spokesman.”
Had to be lost in translation. Much above 125 to 135 F becomes uninhabitable after a few minutes.
This may be that to which the spokesman was referrring:
"- At 5:22am, the temperature of the suppression chamber exceeded
100 degrees. As the reactor pressure suppression function was lost,
at 5:22am, it was determined that a specific incident stipulated in
article 15, clause 1 has occurred."
-
It seems to me that information coming from the TEPCO news releases and the media/government is pretty conflicting. Makes me wonder if the plant and officials are talking. I could see communications issues after such an event.
-
Somewhat off topic...
But what are the ramifications, if any, back here in the U.S. of the nuclear events of this weekend in Japan? Will there be a knee-jerk reaction from the (non-NRC) feds?
It won't be a pretty picture you can be sure of that. Also I would imagine that there will be a bit of E-plan review with an eye on earthquakes especially for those in quake prone zones.
-
I know the stratfor was a bit much, especially with the chernobyl refs. They are written by people on scene, not a news room in chicago. They are probably just as confused as we are. Just wanted y'all to see the videos anyway.
Now do we have status report on the filling? Did they start it yet?
-
Well, here goes my two cents. At one point the water level in the core dropped to about 1.5 feet below top of active fuel (according to bbc news site I believe), not sure how long they were there. Relief valves, Iso condensers, coupled with RCIC and any other available systems removed heat initially then were unable to (100 C). Not just removing heat any relief valve operations would have moved any H2 produced in the core into the drywell. Yes the drywell is inerted but H2 still accumulates and if there is some fuel damage, which seems probable for lots of reasons, continued H2 production even AFTER filling above top of active fuel could have occurred. Anyway, all this H2 combined with exceeding the design pressure of containment (based on another report that drywell pressure had exceeded 87 pounds - they gave it in bars but you get the idea) causes H2 to leak out into the reactor building through pump seals, drywell head, and any other minute crack or crevice. Add to that the fact they were venting the drywell - which would allow a H2 buildiup in the duct work or the RB depending on method used. No ventilation in the Reactor Building due to no power allows the H2 to collect at the highest point - the refuel floor. This is a huge volume that could accommodate a lot of H2 over several hours. Another earthquake/aftershock and a spark on the refuel floor due to metal on metal or whatever and... you get the horrific video. Yes, I agree with Mike, the refuel floor almost certainly would have had blowout panels, the video sure implies it.
Well, that's my theory - as good as any other conjecture I suppose. XF
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http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region
-
incredible!
wait 11 sec into video.
-
From IAEA. Tends to make you think they breeched fuel.
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html
-
Many thanks to those who started and contributed to this thread. Accurate information is nearly impossible to find and the MSM has been horrible. Thanks to this thread, I followed the TEPCO press link and most recently found this:
Press Release (Mar 12,2011)
Plant Status of Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station (as of 8pm March 12th)
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031230-e.html
Which states among other things that:
" - Offsite power is available "
and
"- Injection of water into the reactor is done by Make-up Water Condensate
System."
This strikes me as great news!! I'm surprised this board hasn't lit up!
Sadly, they also report the fatality of a crane operator.
This is the Daini plant, the Daiichi plant is the one where they had the explosion and are pumping borated seawater into containment.
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It looks like things are still bad at Daiichi Unit 3, per the latest TEPCO press release (http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/):
High Pressure Coolant Injection System of Unit 3 automatically stopped.
We endeavored to restart the Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System but
failed. Also, we could not confirm the water inflow of Emergency Core
Cooling System. As such, we decided at 5.10AM, Mar 12, and we reported
and/or noticed the government agencies concerned to apply the clause 1 of
the Article 15 of the Radiation Disaster Measure at 5:58AM, Mar 13.
In order to fully secure safety, we operated the vent valve to reduce the
pressure of the reactor containment vessels (partial release of air
containing radioactive materials) and completed the procedure at 8:41AM,
Mar 13,
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/
-
Close up of the blown out secondary containment at Daiichi 1
(http://in.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20110313&t=2&i=360778290&w=460&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=img-2011-03-13T094345Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_India-555349-1)
-
Close up of the blown out secondary containment at Daiichi 1
(http://in.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20110313&t=2&i=360778290&w=460&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=img-2011-03-13T094345Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_India-555349-1)
testament to design engineering right there. Blown apart building, 8.9 earthquake, all that crap and that reactor vessel is still tickin. amazing...
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“(3) Falsifications in Reactor Containment Leakage Rate Test and the Administrative Measure Taken
Apart from the case mentioned above, it was revealed in October 2002 that, at the periodic inspections in 1991 and 1992 of the Unit 1 of the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station attended by inspectors of regulatory body, the results of reactor containment leak rate tests were falsified by Tokyo Electric Power Co. Inc., in order to show intentionally low leak rate.” 1
“1.Preparation of the Report
This report was produced in compliance with the Article 5 of the Convention on Nuclear Safety. This report was prepared by the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (hereinafter referred to as
“NISA”) in consultation with the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Subcommittee of the Advisory Committee for Natural Resources and Energy for the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, with
the support of an incorporated administrative agency Japan Nuclear Energy Safety Organization , (hereinafter referred to as “JNES”), and the cooperation of Japan Nuclear Cycle Development Institute
and the Federation of Electric Power Companies of Japan. This report was reviewed also by other relevant governmental organizations. Views of the Nuclear Safety Commission (hereinafter referred to
as “the NSC”) were reflected to this report.” 2
1.http://www.meti.go.jp/english/report/downloadfiles/NISAreport3e.pdf
2. Ibid
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Well, here goes my two cents. At one point the water level in the core dropped to about 1.5 feet below top of active fuel (according to bbc news site I believe), not sure how long they were there. Relief valves, Iso condensers, coupled with RCIC and any other available systems removed heat initially then were unable to (100 C). Not just removing heat any relief valve operations would have moved any H2 produced in the core into the drywell. Yes the drywell is inerted but H2 still accumulates and if there is some fuel damage, which seems probable for lots of reasons, continued H2 production even AFTER filling above top of active fuel could have occurred. Anyway, all this H2 combined with exceeding the design pressure of containment (based on another report that drywell pressure had exceeded 87 pounds - they gave it in bars but you get the idea) causes H2 to leak out into the reactor building through pump seals, drywell head, and any other minute crack or crevice. Add to that the fact they were venting the drywell - which would allow a H2 buildiup in the duct work or the RB depending on method used. No ventilation in the Reactor Building due to no power allows the H2 to collect at the highest point - the refuel floor. This is a huge volume that could accommodate a lot of H2 over several hours. Another earthquake/aftershock and a spark on the refuel floor due to metal on metal or whatever and... you get the horrific video. Yes, I agree with Mike, the refuel floor almost certainly would have had blowout panels, the video sure implies it.
Well, that's my theory - as good as any other conjecture I suppose. XF
Since I could not see a fireball in any video, my guess would be that the venting into the RB without ventilation, simply caused a pressure explosion. Even reinforced concrete will not stand up to more than a few psi - especially after having just been subjected to an 8.9 earthquake. The "smoke" in the video didn't rise, which helped me along the way to thinking that it was concrete dust and not smoke. A Hydrogen explosion wouldn't have produced any smoke, but there would have been a fireball. There was no steam venting after the explosion either. I am only offering my theory, like you, but I think ti was just an overpressurization of the RB. Considering that the radiation levels actually dropped after the blast, which indicates that there was a significant buildup of gas that was suddenly released, I think my theory makes sense. Anyone else?
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http://www.nei.org/resourcesandstats/documentlibrary/protectingtheenvironment/factsheet/events-at-the-fukushima-daiichi-nuclear-power-plant-in-japan-
According the the link above, there WAS Hydrogen buildup in the RB, which was the cause of the explosion, but since it is in the RB and not the core, the explosion did not affect the RPV integrity.
<edit> While watching the video in slow motion, I could see a very brief flash at the beginning of the blast which would be characteristic of a rapidly burning gas. If you don't look for it, you'll miss it.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=video&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dkjx-JlwYtyE&rct=j&q=fukushima&ei=bO58TaH1CqSx0QHa_KzpAw&usg=AFQjCNHeZm457VjjsSg7Kyy61I-YMonQ6Q&sig2=XaZ9HSCMJoatOgxkcYSNig&cad=rja
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Of some interest...
http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110313-3.pdf
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Hey, I'm going to ask a dumb question here. Why can't we hook the USN boat up shoreside & give them some power to get their reactors cooled?
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Three videos...
1. http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/13/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
An explosion caused by hydrogen buildup Saturday blew the roof off a concrete building housing the plant's No. 1 reactor, but the reactor and its containment system were not damaged in the explosion. Officials say the No. 3 reactor would also likely withstand a similar blast, noting that workers had already released gas from the building to try to prevent an explosion.
2. http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2011/03/13/sotu.acton.intv.3.13.cnn?iref=allsearch
Dr. James Acton says a Chernobyl-like explosion at one of Japan's nuclear energy plants is "unbelievably unlikely."
3. http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/03/13/myers.meltdown.explainer.cnn?iref=allsearch
Can I punch this guy?
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It is irresponsible reporting like that, that fuels hysteria.
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Three videos...
1. http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/13/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
2. http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2011/03/13/sotu.acton.intv.3.13.cnn?iref=allsearch
3. http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/03/13/myers.meltdown.explainer.cnn?iref=allsearch
Can I punch this guy?
Go to 4:48. There is so much fear and bad information out there. I wish we could get a well composed guy on TV that could both be entertaining and explain what is really going on correctly in layman's terms.
I am not sure if I am more upset at seeing Bill Nye talking or the shame that I used to watch him as kid growing up. I think his rat friend may have been the guy to be listening to the entire time.
What Mr. Wizard would say about all of this?
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Anyone else having trouble connecting to the TEPCO press release site?
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Anyone else having trouble connecting to the TEPCO press release site?
Justin,
Just tried it and found it to be slow as could be, but working.
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Yep appears to be fine now, thanks.
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Hey, I'm going to ask a dumb question here. Why can't we hook the USN boat up shoreside & give them some power to get their reactors cooled?
Well first is the obvious mooring problem. Then there is the 'extended' shore power cable issue. Finally, I took a quick look around and it seems that there are regions of Japan that are 50 Hz and others that are 60 Hz.
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The International Atomic Energy Agency said Sunday evening that Japan had informed it that an emergency had been declared at the nearby Onagawa power plant because excessive radiation had been detected outside the plant. Power company officials later said, however, that all three reactors at Onagawa had been safely shut down and were under control and that wind had blown the radiation there from the Fukushima plant.
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It reminds me of the voracious media frenzy at TMI. They're filling print, air and web 24/7 now and it is worse. Any "expert" or person willing to be quoted, will be and the facts won't be verified. Everyone will have something to say, including us nukes, and we won't know the facts. Patience and time will reveal the story, but by then it won't matter. Perception will have become reality.
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I bet ole Gadhafi is sure glad to see a distraction like this going on so he can crush the hammer down without as much notice.
Anyways, couple of questions about Cesium that some of you may be able to answer for this nonqualified nub non licensed and incredibly non credible source....
If they are measuring Cesium levels in the air, doesn't that mean that the core has been exposed to the air and caused at least some kind of rupture/explosion and from my knowledge (and I could be wrong) doesn't Cesium have a violent reaction with air and is it possible that it could have either further damaged the core or in anyways been the source of the explosion? I read the hyrdrogen theories and those make sense, but I haven't been able to solve this question in my head about Cesiums role ever since I heard it was detected in the air...
Also, what are the quals for these "Experts" on TV..... I feel like they just finished 'A' School.
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I bet ole Gadhafi is sure glad to see a distraction like this going on so he can crush the hammer down without as much notice.
Anyways, couple of questions about Cesium that some of you may be able to answer for this nonqualified nub non licensed and incredibly non credible source....
If they are measuring Cesium levels in the air, doesn't that mean that the core has been exposed to the air and caused at least some kind of rupture/explosion and from my knowledge (and I could be wrong) doesn't Cesium have a violent reaction with air and is it possible that it could have either further damaged the core or in anyways been the source of the explosion? I read the hyrdrogen theories and those make sense, but I haven't been able to solve this question in my head about Cesiums role ever since I heard it was detected in the air...
Also, what are the quals for these "Experts" on TV..... I feel like they just finished 'A' School.
http://www.nndc.bnl.gov/chart/
Cesium 137 is near one of the peaks for the fission product yield curve. There are no natural sources for it either. Detecting it in the air means the was clad failure somewhere. We will not know how bad the core was damaged for a while.
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The question that keeps crossing my mind, is if there were severe earthquake warnings why did the Shift Manager/Site Manager not order the units placed into Guaranteed Shutdown State or at least temporarily shut them down during that time?
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The question that keeps crossing my mind, is if there were severe earthquake warnings why did the Shift Manager/Site Manager not order the units placed into Guaranteed Shutdown State or at least temporarily shut them down during that time?
They did shut them down. You can't turn off decay heat and thus you must keep core cooling going.
This is the "special" part of nuclear technology. The core will continue to make decay heat long after the plant is shutdown. If you don't cool the core, it will find a way to reject the heat for you in bad ways. It does this by raising the delta T between the fuel and the surroundings.
Decay Heat is what gives me a huge pucker factor during an outage when we are drained to low levels for pulling the head and the time to boil is measured in minutes.
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I bet ole Gadhafi is sure glad to see a distraction like this going on so he can crush the hammer down without as much notice.
Anyways, couple of questions about Cesium that some of you may be able to answer for this nonqualified nub non licensed and incredibly non credible source....
If they are measuring Cesium levels in the air, doesn't that mean that the core has been exposed to the air and caused at least some kind of rupture/explosion and from my knowledge (and I could be wrong) doesn't Cesium have a violent reaction with air and is it possible that it could have either further damaged the core or in anyways been the source of the explosion? I read the hyrdrogen theories and those make sense, but I haven't been able to solve this question in my head about Cesiums role ever since I heard it was detected in the air...
Also, what are the quals for these "Experts" on TV..... I feel like they just finished 'A' School.
Bwr dude. Remember that the primary side IS the secondary side. A fuel element failure could theoretically get fission particulate entrained in thee steam system and if we are venting srv's to atmosphere, we may be releasing it to the public. Does that mean the vessel is damaged? Not really.
Media does what it wants. You should knw that by now.
Julian, reports I read said they had a 20 second warning before it hit.
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Bwr dude. Remember that the primary side IS the secondary side. A fuel element failure could theoretically get fission particulate entrained in thee steam system and if we are venting srv's to atmosphere, we may be releasing it to the public. Does that mean the vessel is damaged? Not really.
Media does what it wants. You should knw that by now.
I get that actually. I am saying that I thought the Cs actually being released would be an indicator of something more serious.
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A Hydrogen explosion wouldn't have produced any smoke, but there would have been a fireball.
Hydrogen combustion doesn't produce a visible flame.
Carbon, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide all glow visibly when hot. The oxidation of carbon releases visible light. That's what produces the light for most fires we are familiar with.
Hydrogen and steam do not glow until they are heated much hotter (too much energy needed to kick a valence electron free). The combustion produces ultra-violet light. You can see a faint blue glow in rocket exhaust, but that is from shock waves.
I think the "smoke" is concrete dust. There was no explosion when the world trade center collapsed, but there was a whole lot of concrete dust.
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that looks more like a turbine building explosion to me that blew away the blowout panels on the refueling floor. wanna bet they released hydrogen from the generator and it went poof?
In the generators I'm familiar with, the hydrogen is kept in using turbine lube oil. On a loss of all AC power, the turbine building battery powers a DC pump to provide lube oil as the turbine as the turbine coasts down. Before the battery goes dead, someone needs to go out and open the vent to dump the hydrogen above the roof. If no-one opens the vent valve, the hydrogen will vent out along the shaft at both ends of the generator. With 60-75 PSI of hydrogen in the generator, a whole lot hydrogen will vent into the turbine building quickly.
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Can someone with GE Mark I containment knowledge describe the drywell venting process?
Does the drywell vent path go through the off-gas system?
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I have heard that some people were treated for radiation sickness but that does not jive with the levels of radiation that I have seen published. Media hype I am sure, has anyone seen any real numbers? Today's update lists one worker who received 100mSv enough to see blood changes with a baseline but not high enough I would expect treatment.
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I found this interesting:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/11/japan-nuclear-idUSL3E7EB26V20110311
Not indicating a preference either way, but as far as I can tell all eleven Japanese plants that went down due to the earthquake are BWR of various generations. I'm sure that is due to the majority of Japanese nukes being BWR and not a rellection of plant reliability. It does remove the confusion associated with ECCS variations across BWR and PWR.
I like others on this board hope and pray for safe outcomes in all cases and express my deepest sympathy for all people affected by this unprecedented tragedy.
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I'm keeping the operators in my thoughts.
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Can someone with GE Mark I containment knowledge describe the drywell venting process?
Does the drywell vent path go through the off-gas system?
Sure, It goes basically like this.
Normally, with all power available the containment would be vented by the following:
1) Check ventilation path way and ensure it is lined up - Reactor Building ventilation exhaust fans are running for instance since that is the normal pathway.
2) Check several different Raditation Monitors in the release pathway as well as the drywell process radiation Montiors to ensure there will be NO effluent release of contamination.
3) Open a valve inside the drywell remotely and then open a valve outside the drywell - also remotely
4)When desired pressure reached secure lineup.
With no power available it would go something like this:
1)Check available instrumentation and rad monitors to determine release
2) Lineup drywell using alternate vent paths available OUTSIDE of the drywell
3)Ventilation pathway is still used – that is; it ties into the same exhaust path as other vents – this makes sense, since one always wants to thoroughly monitor and release from an elevated point
4) commence release and sample the effluent or monitor remotely if available to determine release rate.
5) Stop if release rates are reached, unless directed otherwise by emergency procedures
There are methods to release into the reactor building through alternate valve lineups – this will keep more of the “bad stuff” within the facility. Unfortunately if there is H2 in the vent stream this operation can be hazardous.
Make sense?
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one worker who received 100mSv enough to see blood changes
You would expect to see blood changes at that "low" of an acute exposure? I thought the first measurable blood changes would occur at about 25 Rem acute.
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I found this interesting:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/11/japan-nuclear-idUSL3E7EB26V20110311
Not indicating a preference either way, but as far as I can tell all eleven Japanese plants that went down due to the earthquake are BWR of various generations. I'm sure that is due to the majority of Japanese nukes being BWR and not a rellection of plant reliability. It does remove the confusion associated with ECCS variations across BWR and PWR.
I like others on this board hope and pray for safe outcomes in all cases and express my deepest sympathy for all people affected by this unprecedented tragedy.
considering most of their plants are of the BWR variety, Id have to say its more incumbent on their location vice their "types"...
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Not being in the nuke industry anymore, (ex navy sub mm nuke myself,did 9 years) I haven't been able to read any of the news nor watch tv reports on this incident. The "credible" sources make me laugh. I've forgotten more than most of these guys know, and its hard to sift through all the BS. my question to you SRO guys is this, IF, and that's a really big IF, they are venting to atmosphere, what type of spread are we looking at? I say this not knowing what type of fuel they use in their cores, is it enriched uranium, do they have half-nium, so on and so forth. What are the chances of any fission product release?
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Not indicating a preference either way, but as far as I can tell all eleven Japanese plants that went down due to the earthquake are BWR of various generations. I'm sure that is due to the majority of Japanese nukes being BWR and not a rellection of plant reliability.
The reactors apparently tripped on high seismic activity. Plants near earthquake zones often have a direct reactor trip on seismic activity as a part of their reactor protection system. I would read the BWR versus PWR issue as merely the fact that the plants closest to the earthquake were BWR plants.
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Not being in the nuke industry anymore, (ex navy sub mm nuke myself,did 9 years) I haven't been able to read any of the news nor watch tv reports on this incident. The "credible" sources make me laugh. I've forgotten more than most of these guys know, and its hard to sift through all the BS. my question to you SRO guys is this, IF, and that's a really big IF, they are venting to atmosphere, what type of spread are we looking at? I say this not knowing what type of fuel they use in their cores, is it enriched uranium, do they have half-nium, so on and so forth. What are the chances of any fission product release?
Im no SRO, but 1) venting to atmosphere will most certainly release radioactive nuclides 2) spread will be dependent on weather conditions 3) BWR's use varied enrichments but nothing even close to navy. We're talkin around 4-7%, depending on location in the core 4) uranium fuel 5) borated rods, not hafnium 6) fission product release has already occurred.
I dont think we've seen any set numbers on the release yet.
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Sure, It goes basically like this.
Normally, with all power available the containment would be vented by the following:
...
With no power available it would go something like this:
...
There are methods to release into the reactor building through alternate valve lineups – this will keep more of the “bad stuff” within the facility. Unfortunately if there is H2 in the vent stream this operation can be hazardous.
Make sense?
XenonFree,
Thanks! And yes that makes sense.
What does not make sense is, no mention of a means to vent through OFF GAS system. It would seem to me that routing the drywell gas through off-gas would strip particulate and give short lived isotopes more time to decay before venting to the atmosphere.
In the later containment designs, is this an option?
Thanks again!
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You would expect to see blood changes at that "low" of an acute exposure? I thought the first measurable blood changes would occur at about 25 Rem acute.
I did say with a baseline which would drop the standard 25 Rem limit for detection to 5 Rem. Baseline blood count I don't think is done much anymore for radiation as it is for lead and beryllium.
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A senior SRO at my PWR passed this to us:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/japan-nuclear-reactors-and-seismic-activity/?hpid=topnews
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I have heard that some people were treated for radiation sickness but that does not jive with the levels of radiation that I have seen published. Media hype I am sure, has anyone seen any real numbers? Today's update lists one worker who received 100mSv enough to see blood changes with a baseline but not high enough I would expect treatment.
The first reports of radiation sickness were immediately following the utility's report of several workers going to the hospital with broken bones from the Unit 1 explosion. Contaminated injured man perhaps? Like everything else in the news this weekend, not enough info.
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Not surprised that the NYTimes was first to post an article like this:
U.S. Nuclear Industry Faces New Uncertainty
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/science/earth/14politics.html?_r=1&hp
Also- thanks for this great thread. Have been spending the last few hours reading up on here. Knew I could count on all of you for some acurate information in this sea of moronic reporting.
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Wow! This thread is on fire.
Anyway:
First, yes, I am aware that Hydrogen combustion is invisible, but there would still be a flash fro other combustible particles in the air. It was a brief flash that looked like a rising bubble. To me, it is consistent with a Hydrogen ignition.
Second, Cesium in the air, does NOT necessarily mean a fuel failure or a cladding failure. Tramp Uranium impurities in the cladding will release fission products directly to the reactor coolant. Also, Xenon (an abundant fission product gas) decays to Cs-137. Xenon and Cesium from Tramp Uranium, plus Xenon from a possible gap release, can cause the presence of Cesium in the plume.
Third, I am stunned that Robert Bezell from NBC News has finally been a voice of calmness and reason from a major news outlet. He will be proven to have been correct that this is NOT a deadly situation. Compared to the earthquake, the tsunami, the loss of structural integrity in housing and public buildings, the breakdown of physical infrastructure, the unsanitary conditions due to loss of water treatment and sewage systems, the hydrocarbons and toxic chemicals being released by the burning refineries, the impact on hospitals, the delay and over-taxing of emergency response, .... the overheated nuclear plant is NOT the biggest - or even one of the top ten - threats to public health in Japan.
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The first reports of radiation sickness were immediately following the utility's report of several workers going to the hospital with broken bones from the Unit 1 explosion. Contaminated injured man perhaps? Like everything else in the news this weekend, not enough info.
God, not the contaminated injured man drill. I always got stuck having to be at the decon station for hours. Just scrub harder damnit.
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Quote from: Marlin on Today at 15:23
I have heard that some people were treated for radiation sickness but that does not jive with the levels of radiation that I have seen published. Media hype I am sure, has anyone seen any real numbers? Today's update lists one worker who received 100mSv enough to see blood changes with a baseline but not high enough I would expect treatment.
The first reports of radiation sickness were immediately following the utility's report of several workers going to the hospital with broken bones from the Unit 1 explosion. Contaminated injured man perhaps? Like everything else in the news this weekend, not enough info.
Or very possibly the media response - "Someone went to the hospital from a nuclear facility, it must be radiation sickness"!
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Not surprised that the NYTimes was first to post an article like this:
U.S. Nuclear Industry Faces New Uncertainty
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/science/earth/14politics.html?_r=1&hp
Also- thanks for this great thread. Have been spending the last few hours reading up on here. Knew I could count on all of you for some acurate information in this sea of moronic reporting.
Surprisingly that article didn't sound as bad as I thought it would.
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Quote from: Marlin on Today at 15:23
I have heard that some people were treated for radiation sickness but that does not jive with the levels of radiation that I have seen published. Media hype I am sure, has anyone seen any real numbers? Today's update lists one worker who received 100mSv enough to see blood changes with a baseline but not high enough I would expect treatment.
The first reports of radiation sickness were immediately following the utility's report of several workers going to the hospital with broken bones from the Unit 1 explosion. Contaminated injured man perhaps? Like everything else in the news this weekend, not enough info.
Or very possibly the media response - "Someone went to the hospital from a nuclear facility, it must be radiation sickness"!
Very likely.
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Here's the "sound and white smoke" from a different angle. You can clearly see flames so the H2 did ignite.
(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/1472/20mai00383969.gif)
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It appears that the same secondary containment hydrogen explosion just occurred at Daiichi Unit 3. The (poor) television pictures seemed to show more damage to the actual concrete portion of the reactor building that at Unit 1.
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Link to English feed from Japanese HNK TV network
http://jibtv.com/program/fullscreen.aspx
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It appears that the same secondary containment hydrogen explosion just occurred at Daiichi Unit 3. The (poor) television pictures seemed to show more damage to the actual concrete portion of the reactor building that at Unit 1.
Here is a video of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIZKlaEZMLY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIZKlaEZMLY)
It looks much larger than Unit 1
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Does anyone know if they where using hydrogen water chemistry onsite at Fukushima, or is all the hydrogen from zirc/water or radiolysis? And for those who don't think you can't see hydrogen burn >>
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In the generators I'm familiar with, the hydrogen is kept in using turbine lube oil. On a loss of all AC power, the turbine building battery powers a DC pump to provide lube oil as the turbine as the turbine coasts down. Before the battery goes dead, someone needs to go out and open the vent to dump the hydrogen above the roof. If no-one opens the vent valve, the hydrogen will vent out along the shaft at both ends of the generator. With 60-75 PSI of hydrogen in the generator, a whole lot hydrogen will vent into the turbine building quickly.
Well yes, hydrogen cooling for generators is oftentimes maintained using a seal oil type system. I think the hydrogen concern in this case is a result of a fuel cladding reaction with the coolant which occurs at very high temperatures. Just my opinion.
God be with the people in Japan.
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I have heard that some people were treated for radiation sickness but that does not jive with the levels of radiation that I have seen published. Media hype I am sure, has anyone seen any real numbers? Today's update lists one worker who received 100mSv enough to see blood changes with a baseline but not high enough I would expect treatment.
After listening closely to some of the reports, it may be that they are calling administration of iodine tablets treatment for "Radiation Sickness" as opposed to treatment for potential exposure. Just a bit of confusion on the part of the media.
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After listening closely to some of the reports, it may be that they are calling administration of iodine tablets treatment for "Radiation Sickness" as opposed to treatment for potential exposure. Just a bit of confusion on the part of the media.
Imagine that...
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Press Release (Mar 14,2011)
White smoke around the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station Unit 3 (2nd release)
At approximately 11:01am, an explosive sound followed by white smoke
occurred at the reactor building of the Unit 3. It was believed to be a
hydrogen explosion.
According to the parameter, it is estimated that the reactor containment
vessel remains intact. However, the status of the plant and the impact of
radioactive materials to the outside environment are presently under
investigation. (previously announced)
As of 12:00 am, 4 TEPCO employees and 2 workers of related companies have
sustained injuries (all of them are conscious) and ambulances are on
their way to care for them.
As of 11:44 am, the measured value of radiation dose near MP6 is 20μSv/h
and the radiation level remains stable.
TEPCO continues to take all measures to restore the safety and security
of the site and are monitoring the site's immediate surroundings.
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One thing I've always wondered about the design of the Mark I reactors---- with secondary containment exposed with the " blow-out" panels blown-off-----how's the spent fuel pool doing? Can they cool and maintain the pool? Do you have rad ducks and sea-gull mutants swimming around in the pool? Maybe they ran down to home-depot for a pool tarp and a garden hose. ???
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Will someone please explain wind direction and source term to the people driving the big boat...I take it they have been briefed by now. Perhaps there was an unexpected shift in wind direction. Perhaps radioactivity will be released when those "explosions" occur. Perhaps a little KI before you decide to park in the downwind direction. Just hoping the best for our kids out there on that big adventure. I'm sure I just don't have the context. Probably one of those "you just had to be there" moments. I'm sure the nukes on the Reagan have expressed their questioning attitude about driving through the plume. Maybe they were getting an air sample. Yeah, that's it, an air sample.
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One thing I've always wondered about the design of the Mark I reactors---- with secondary containment exposed with the " blow-out" panels blown-off-----how's the spent fuel pool doing? Can they cool and maintain the pool? Do you have rad ducks and sea-gull mutants swimming around in the pool? Maybe they ran down to home-depot for a pool tarp and a garden hose. ???
I'm wondering the same thing.
At least they will have far less fuel load in the pool than a typical US plant since Japan actually has a spent fuel policy.
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Questions with my guesses. Anybody with more BWR experience than me care to help me?
Why wouldn't RCIC operate for more than 8 hours since it is steam powered? Gov valve is powered by electricity. Diesels OOC, NO Off site power
Why do the RBs keep blowing up? Cement Building can't withstand more than a few pounds of pressurization. Drywell can't be vented properly, DW has more DW to RB leaks due to quakes, Diesels are OOC, RB ventalition doesn't have power/quake damage. DW coolers don't have cooling/power. SRVs have no power. Suppresion Pool Cooling gone. No offsite power. Manual Valve operation to vent Drywell straight to atmosphere (MOV won't have power)?
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Anybody else watch 60 Minutes last night? They had a "nuclear expert" on explaining the plant and damage. The display that he used for illustration was for a PWR 2 loop NPP. I was laughing so hard I darn near lost my cold medicine through my nose! :)
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Anybody else watch 60 Minutes last night? They had a "nuclear expert" on explaining the plant and damage. The display that he used for illustration was for a PWR 2 loop NPP. I was laughing so hard I darn near lost my cold medicine through my nose! :)
Yeah, I noticed that - pretty much discredited anything he might say.
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"Questions with my guesses. Anybody with more BWR experience than me care to help me?
Why wouldn't RCIC operate for more than 8 hours since it is steam powered? Gov valve is powered by electricity. Diesels OOC, NO Off site power"
-RCIC would be able to function without power (being a steam driven turbine that operates the pump). The 8 hours is the capacity of DC power that operates the MOVs in the system. All of the main DC powered valves would be able to be operated by an operator in the field by simply de-clutching the motor and using the handwheel to operate it. The problem with continued operation of RCIC is that the steam exhaust from the turbine is routed to the Torus (or suppression pool) and you will drive the temperature and level of the Torus upward. I believe that this is what they did. They stated in their press release that they had reached 100 degrees (aka 212 F) in their suppression pool and thereby lost its functionality.
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In the Nuclear World, this aphorism by Nassim Nicholas Taleb is particularly true:
"Academia is to knowledge as prostitution is to love" Taleb goes on to note that prostitutes do occasionally fall in love. It is interesting how many of the "nuclear experts" are really not experts at all. I am sure we will see a lot of these "nuclear experts" weigh in during the media frenzy.
"The Bed of Procustes" is the Taleb book if you are wondering...same guy that wrote "The Black Swan" (no, not the recent ballet movie). The 8.9 earthquake followed by the tsunami is a classic black swan event.
Well, anyway...go back to work :)
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Does anyone know if they where using hydrogen water chemistry onsite at Fukushima, or is all the hydrogen from zirc/water or radiolysis?
I don't think any BWR uses hydrogen water chemistry. Since the water is boiling, any hydrogen would instantly come out of solution and head for the condenser and eventually the plant stack.
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-RCIC would be able to function without power (being a steam driven turbine that operates the pump). The 8 hours is the capacity of DC power that operates the MOVs in the system. All of the main DC powered valves would be able to be operated by an operator in the field by simply de-clutching the motor and using the handwheel to operate it.
Isn't the steam seal exhaust blower and the seal condenser condensate pump DC operated too? I'm guessing that wouldn't prohibit operation of RCIC, but it would make the local area much more hot (in both senses) with the turbine exhaust leaking out into the pump room.
The problem with continued operation of RCIC is that the steam exhaust from the turbine is routed to the Torus (or suppression pool) and you will drive the temperature and level of the Torus upward. I believe that this is what they did. They stated in their press release that they had reached 100 degrees (aka 212 F) in their suppression pool and thereby lost its functionality.
Can't the turbine operate with a bunch of back pressure? I thought it could operate up to containment design pressure.
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I don't think any BWR uses hydrogen water chemistry. Since the water is boiling, any hydrogen would instantly come out of solution and head for the condenser and eventually the plant stack.
Peach Bottom uses HWC. We have an entire building dedicated to recombining it.
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Isn't the steam seal exhaust blower and the seal condenser condensate pump DC operated too? I'm guessing that wouldn't prohibit operation of RCIC, but it would make the local area much more hot (in both senses) with the turbine exhaust leaking out into the pump room.
Can't the turbine operate with a bunch of back pressure? I thought it could operate up to containment design pressure.
It isn't about the turbine, it was about the containment. Eventually, containment parameters degrade to the point where the emergency procedures direct you to stop all discharges to containment from things like steam driven pumps.
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Why do the RBs keep blowing up? Cement Building can't withstand more than a few pounds of pressurization. Drywell can't be vented properly, DW has more DW to RB leaks due to quakes, Diesels are OOC, RB ventalition doesn't have power/quake damage. DW coolers don't have cooling/power. SRVs have no power. Suppresion Pool Cooling gone. No offsite power. Manual Valve operation to vent Drywell straight to atmosphere (MOV won't have power)?
The top of a Mark 1 containment is just a metal skin over steel framing. Above the refueling deck the only function of the building is to keep ducks and seagulls from taking a swim in the spent fuel pool.
On unit 1 all that appears to have happened is the skin is gone. It looks like there is more damage to unit 3. There must have been hydrogen down in some of the lower level rooms.
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It isn't about the turbine, it was about the containment. Eventually, containment parameters degrade to the point where the emergency procedures direct you to stop all discharges to containment from things like steam driven pumps.
That's a heck of a bind to be in.
You'd think the better choice would be to vent containment and keep the pump running to prevent cladding damage. Either way the drywell is going to be vented, the better choice would be to not vent with cladding damage.
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"You'd think the better choice would be to vent containment and keep the pump running to prevent cladding damage. Either way the drywell is going to be vented, the better choice would be to not vent with cladding damage."
This is getting to the meat of one of my questions, a discussion on this point. Thanks everyone for further input.
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Posted on facebook.
"7th Fleet repositions ships after contamination detected
The U.S. 7th Fleet has temporarily repositioned its ships and aircraft away from the Fukushima Dai-Ichi Nuclear Power Plant after detecting low level contamination in the air and on its aircraft operating in the area. The source of this airborne radio...activity is a radioactive plume released from the Fukushima Dai-Ichi Nuclear Power Plant. For perspective, the maximum potential radiation dose received by any ship’s force personnel aboard the ship when it passed through the area was less than the radiation exposure received from about one month of exposure to natural background radiation from sources such as rocks, soil, and the sun. The ship was operating at sea about 100 miles northeast of the power plant at the time. Using sensitive instruments, precautionary measurements of three helicopter aircrews returning to USS Ronald Reagan after conducting disaster relief missions near Sendai identified low levels of radioactivity on 17 air crew members. The low level radioactivity was easily removed from affected personnel by washing with soap and water. They were subsequently surveyed, and no further contamination was detected. As a precautionary measure, USS Ronald Reagan and other U.S. 7th Fleet ships conducting disaster response operations in the area have moved out of the downwind direction from the site to assess the situation and determine what appropriate mitigating actions are necessary. We remain committed to our mission of providing assistance to the people of Japan. See More
By: U.S. 7th Fleet"
This does not sound good. If they are finding it that far out to sea, seems to lead to the fuel cell damage is worse than reported.
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That's a heck of a bind to be in.
You'd think the better choice would be to vent containment and keep the pump running to prevent cladding damage. Either way the drywell is going to be vented, the better choice would be to not vent with cladding damage.
Well my answer was based on "normal" EOP space. Once you get past a certain point, you are into the "severe accident mitigation procedures." I am sure they are well into those and my knowledge of them is limited. However, in EOP space, from what I remember, protecting your ability to perform a reactor blowdown is a high priority. However, keeping the core covered is also, a high priority, so they are sort of competing. One of those legs should have driven them to blowing down the reactor before losing the ability to supress it or before reactor level dropped below the top of active fuel. I don't know how strong their RCIC is, but I can tell you, that for the first 15 minutes or so after a trip from full power on RCIC alone at Peach Bottom, RCIC will NOT maintain level. So what I am saying is... I really have no idea how they got themselve in. What I know from Peach Bottom cannot be directly correlated to their plant because A) they are somewhate different and B) They had an 8.9 earth quake. This is why I have refrained from further speculation of what is going on because it is beyond anything calculated or planned for at this point. I just try to think about what I would be trying to do if I was in their situation.
Justin
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The latest from Yahoo News:
Water levels dropped precipitously Monday inside a stricken Japanese nuclear reactor, twice leaving the uranium fuel rods completely exposed and raising the threat of a meltdown, hours after a hydrogen explosion tore through the building housing a different reactor.
Water levels were restored after the first decrease but the rods remained exposed late Monday night after the second episode, increasing the risk of the spread of radiation and the potential for an eventual meltdown.
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Well my answer was based on "normal" EOP space. Once you get past a certain point, you are into the "severe accident mitigation procedures." I am sure they are well into those and my knowledge of them is limited. However, in EOP space, from what I remember, protecting your ability to perform a reactor blowdown is a high priority. However, keeping the core covered is also, a high priority, so they are sort of competing. One of those legs should have driven them to blowing down the reactor before losing the ability to supress it or before reactor level dropped below the top of active fuel. I don't know how strong their RCIC is, but I can tell you, that for the first 15 minutes or so after a trip from full power on RCIC alone at Peach Bottom, RCIC will NOT maintain level. So what I am saying is... I really have no idea how they got themselve in. What I know from Peach Bottom cannot be directly correlated to their plant because A) they are somewhate different and B) They had an 8.9 earth quake. This is why I have refrained from further speculation of what is going on because it is beyond anything calculated or planned for at this point. I just try to think about what I would be trying to do if I was in their situation.
Justin
Oh I forgot to add, that RCIC alone also would not have degraded the containment at PB as fast as happened there. So in my mind, they obviously had some other discharge going on, despite the updates saying they didn't suspect a leak. But like I said, I don't know, because I'm not there or have the experience of having the earth torn beneath my feat while operating.
At PB, after the first 15 minutes, RCIC was the one little reliable guy that could.
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"You'd think the better choice would be to vent containment and keep the pump running to prevent cladding damage. Either way the drywell is going to be vented, the better choice would be to not vent with cladding damage."
This is getting to the meat of one of my questions, a discussion on this point. Thanks everyone for further input.
What point are you questioning exactly?
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"7th Fleet repositions ships after contamination detected
Using sensitive instruments, precautionary measurements of three helicopter aircrews returning to USS Ronald Reagan after conducting disaster relief missions near Sendai identified low levels of radioactivity on 17 air crew members.
This begs the question of when where the crew members contaminated? If it was during a recon flight, then why weren't they closed in the cabin with A/C (recirc sys) operational and if it was while they were on the ground, what must the conditions be like there?
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A few comments from what I have heard and read.
The hydrogen is from a combination of Hydrolysis/Radiolysis and has nothing to do with water chemistry cause there flooding the core with sea water !!! The reports of rad sickness are likely because of some of the reports of up to 1500 people have been scanned for "radiation"
The highest dose I have heard was 10.5 rem to a plant worker and highest dose rate was 128 mr/hr at the site boundary.
If they are getting the core flooded with sea water then they are venting the hydrogen pressure off to either the drywell and or the reactor building proper once it combines with O2 and reached and explosive concentration it just take a static spark to ignite.
not a BWR expert by any means but that what I have read
sf
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Posted on facebook.
"The U.S. 7th Fleet has temporarily repositioned its ships and aircraft away from the Fukushima Dai-Ichi Nuclear Power Plant after detecting low level contamination in the air and on its aircraft operating in the area. "
This does not sound good. If they are finding it that far out to sea, seems to lead to the fuel cell damage is worse than reported.
Aircraft fly from the fleet to Japan and back. Nothing in this article tells you how far out to Sea an aircraft was when it detected radiation. Nothing in this article tells where the aircraft picked up the low level radiation contamination found on the aircraft.
Repositioning the ships to avoid flying through air which is downwind of the reactors is prudent, regardless how close to shore the radiation was detected / picked up.
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Meanwhile, 17 U.S. military personnel involved in helicopter relief missions were found to have been exposed to low levels of radiation after the flew back from the devastated coast to the USS Ronald Reagan, an aircraft carrier about 100 miles (160 kilometers) offshore.
U.S. officials said the exposure level was roughly equal to one month's normal exposure to natural background radiation, and the 17 were declared contamination-free after scrubbing with soap and water.
As a precaution, the U.S. said the carrier and other 7th Fleet ships involved in relief efforts had shifted to another area.
from a new article I read.
sf
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Well my answer was based on "normal" EOP space. Once you get past a certain point, you are into the "severe accident mitigation procedures." I am sure they are well into those and my knowledge of them is limited. However, in EOP space, from what I remember, protecting your ability to perform a reactor blowdown is a high priority. However, keeping the core covered is also, a high priority, so they are sort of competing. One of those legs should have driven them to blowing down the reactor before losing the ability to supress it or before reactor level dropped below the top of active fuel. I don't know how strong their RCIC is, but I can tell you, that for the first 15 minutes or so after a trip from full power on RCIC alone at Peach Bottom, RCIC will NOT maintain level. So what I am saying is... I really have no idea how they got themselve in. What I know from Peach Bottom cannot be directly correlated to their plant because A) they are somewhate different and B) They had an 8.9 earth quake. This is why I have refrained from further speculation of what is going on because it is beyond anything calculated or planned for at this point. I just try to think about what I would be trying to do if I was in their situation.
Justin
I agree with you here. You would have the Heat Capacity Limit of your Torus that would drive you to lower RPV pressure or cool the Torus per an EOP. But, lets not forget that they were also in a station blackout. Other than minimizing DC loads to preserve much needed battery power, you would definately disable some interlocks. I would think HPCI and RCIC area temps and Low Pressure lockout for RCIC. After you lockout the low pressure isolation, running RCIC without throttling the pump discharge (which will minimize the time needed to run the pump and thereby keep the heating of the Torus to a minimum) will maintain RPV level and also lower RPV pressure (which will help with the EOP heat capacity curve). HPCI is also a viable method of lowering pressure and injecting to the RPV. The lower you can get RPV pressure the higher you can raise temperature in the Torus.
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Thanks Justin.
BWB519 - Wondering what happened to RCIC, which also MIGHT have something to do with the suppression pool, which might have something to do with why the RB blew up. So I guess Directly the RCIC point, but also since everything ties into the RB blowing up that too, indirectly.
A BWR SRO friend of mine thinks the battery/electric power issue would have caused a problem before the suppression pool would have concerning RCIC. At a PWR now, so he may be rusty. Alot of speculation but I'd really like to know what happened.
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Aircraft fly from the fleet to Japan and back. Nothing in this article tells you how far out to Sea an aircraft was when it detected radiation. Nothing in this article tells where the aircraft picked up the low level radiation contamination found on the aircraft.
Repositioning the ships to avoid flying through air which is downwind of the reactors is prudent, regardless how close to shore the radiation was detected / picked up.
Re read the article... Clearly states 100 miles off the coast, clearly states the radiation came from a plume from the plant, states where they picked up radiation, etc.
I do agree that moving is prudent.
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This begs the question of when where the crew members contaminated? If it was during a recon flight, then why weren't they closed in the cabin with A/C (recirc sys) operational and if it was while they were on the ground, what must the conditions be like there?
The proof in the pudding will be if/when Columbia Gen and Hanford get hot air samples.... ::)
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Thanks Justin.
BWB519 - Wondering what happened to RCIC, which also MIGHT have something to do with the suppression pool, which might have something to do with why the RB blew up. So I guess Directly the RCIC point, but also since everything ties into the RB blowing up that too, indirectly.
A BWR SRO friend of mine thinks the battery/electric power issue would have caused a problem before the suppression pool would have concerning RCIC. At a PWR now, so he may be rusty. Alot of speculation but I'd really like to know what happened.
I can only speculate what happened. In a station blackout situation, depressurizing via SRVs, HPCI, and RCIC to achieve whatever cooldown rate they are allowed and fill the RPV would be a prudent choice. This could have been challenged by any number of things. Maybe they can't bypass their low pressure isolation logic that would stop them from running RCIC down to around 150# or so. Or, maybe there was a LOCA that challenged containment before RCIC ever would have. I think being in the DC power box would challenge the operators as well, but there are ways around/out of that box.
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Re read the article... Clearly states 100 miles off the coast, clearly states the radiation came from a plume from the plant, states where they picked up radiation, etc.
I do agree that moving is prudent.
The article never states the aircraft picked up the radiation 100 miles off the coast.
Get your facts straight.
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The article never states the aircraft picked up the radiation 100 miles off the coast.
Get your facts straight.
we're not about to argue on this thread. If you cant read, sorry.
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The article never states the aircraft picked up the radiation 100 miles off the coast.
Get your facts straight.
From USS Ronald Reagan Commanding Officer:
Friends and Family of USS Ronald Reagan: I want to take this opportunity to personally assure you that first and foremost all personnel aboard the USS Ronald Reagan are safe and healthy. During our mission to assist our close allies of Japan, we were ...operating near the radioactive plume from Fukushima Dai-Ichi Nuclear Power Plant. As you may have already heard, radioactivity was detected on 17 personnel from our ship, however, we promptly took the proper precautions and the radioactivity was easily removed by using soap and water. The levels that were detected were very low levels. To put this into perspective, the maximum radiation dose received was equalt to the amount of natural background radiation one would receive in one month from sources such as rocks, soil and the sun. Ronald Reagan has since repositioned away from the Fukushima Dai-Ichi Nuclear Power Plant. As a nuclear-powered aircraft carrrier, we have extensive technical expertise onboard to properly monitor such types of risks, and if necessary, rapidly resolve the situation. We have taken all the necessary precautions to ensure that everyone is safe. We have closely monitored spaces, evaluated everyone who has flown or worked on the flight deck and cleaned the aircraft. I have not seen any levels of radiation or contamination that would cause me to have any significant concerns at all. As we continue to assist Japan in this terrible catastrophe, our Sailor's--and your loves ones'-- safety will remain at the top of my priority list. Capt. Thom BurkeSee More
By: USS Ronald Reagan
Lets say I know more info and you can't read.
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I can only speculate what happened. In a station blackout situation, depressurizing via SRVs, HPCI, and RCIC to achieve whatever cooldown rate they are allowed and fill the RPV would be a prudent choice. This could have been challenged by any number of things. Maybe they can't bypass their low pressure isolation logic that would stop them from running RCIC down to around 150# or so. Or, maybe there was a LOCA that challenged containment before RCIC ever would have. I think being in the DC power box would challenge the operators as well, but there are ways around/out of that box.
Yup the sort of stuff I been thinking about. From the earliest status reports I saw, HPCI was never available. I have been assuming that either a) it was broke) or b) they didn't use it because with no way to cool the torus, they would have challenged containment quickly by using HPCI.
But it is all speculation. I can only imagine going down my legs going "nope that is broke, next." "nope that is broke, next."
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Again, no where does the article say the the aircraft picked up the radiation 100 miles off the coast.
You keep posting an article that proves my points - what exactly is the point you are trying to make.
Again, the aircraft being tested just flew round trip from the ships, to Japan, and back to the ships...
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Please post sources that would help information flow.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/14/japan.us.navy.radiation/index.html?eref=edition_asia&cid=dlvr.it
Tests detected low levels of radioactivity on 17 U.S. Navy helicopter crew members when they returned to the USS Ronald Reagan after conducting disaster relief missions in Japan, the military said Monday.
No further contamination was detected after the crew members washed with soap and water, the Navy said.
In addition, the Navy said the U.S. 7th Fleet has temporarily repositioned its ships and planes away from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant after detecting low-level contamination in the air and on its planes in the area, the Navy said.
One ship was operating about 100 miles northeast of the power plant when "airborne radioactivity" was detected, the Navy said.
The Navy's statement, however, provided some perspective, noting that the maximum potential radiation dose received by personnel when the ship passed through the area was "less than the radiation exposure received from about one month of exposure to natural background radiation from sources such as rocks, soil, and the sun."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/14/501364/main20042763.shtml
CBS News national security correspondent David Martin reports that there were two separate radiation exposures on the aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan. The first was to air crews who were swabbed upon returning from search and rescue (SAR) missions, 17 of whom were found to have received the equivalent of a month's radiation and had to be decontaminated.
The second exposure occurred when the carrier's shipboard alarms went off. Since the Reagan is nuclear-powered, it has sensors to detect radioactivity, said Martin, and those went off as soon as the radiation levels went above the naturally-occurring background.
The Reagan was about 100 miles offshore when its instruments detected the radiation.
The fleet said that the radiation was from a plume of smoke and steam released from the crippled Fukushima Dai-Ichi Nuclear Power Plant, where there have been two hydrogen explosions since Friday's devastating earthquake and tsunami.
But there were "really, really low levels," and not considered a hazard to health, reports Martin.
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Please post sources that would help information flow.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/14/japan.us.navy.radiation/index.html?eref=edition_asia&cid=dlvr.it
Tests detected low levels of radioactivity on 17 U.S. Navy helicopter crew members when they returned to the USS Ronald Reagan after conducting disaster relief missions in Japan, the military said Monday.
No further contamination was detected after the crew members washed with soap and water, the Navy said.
In addition, the Navy said the U.S. 7th Fleet has temporarily repositioned its ships and planes away from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant after detecting low-level contamination in the air and on its planes in the area, the Navy said.
One ship was operating about 100 miles northeast of the power plant when "airborne radioactivity" was detected, the Navy said.
The Navy's statement, however, provided some perspective, noting that the maximum potential radiation dose received by personnel when the ship passed through the area was "less than the radiation exposure received from about one month of exposure to natural background radiation from sources such as rocks, soil, and the sun."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/14/501364/main20042763.shtml
CBS News national security correspondent David Martin reports that there were two separate radiation exposures on the aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan. The first was to air crews who were swabbed upon returning from search and rescue (SAR) missions, 17 of whom were found to have received the equivalent of a month's radiation and had to be decontaminated.
The second exposure occurred when the carrier's shipboard alarms went off. Since the Reagan is nuclear-powered, it has sensors to detect radioactivity, said Martin, and those went off as soon as the radiation levels went above the naturally-occurring background.
The Reagan was about 100 miles offshore when its instruments detected the radiation.
The fleet said that the radiation was from a plume of smoke and steam released from the crippled Fukushima Dai-Ichi Nuclear Power Plant, where there have been two hydrogen explosions since Friday's devastating earthquake and tsunami.
But there were "really, really low levels," and not considered a hazard to health, reports Martin.
I stand corrected.
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Again, no where does the article say the the aircraft picked up the radiation 100 miles off the coast.
You keep posting an article that proves my points - what exactly is the point you are trying to make.
(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/30/welcome_to_fail_population_you.jpg) (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=5019)
Sir, you are wrong. Please stop posting on this topic (re: 100 miles). Thank you.
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The proof in the pudding will be if/when Columbia Gen and Hanford get hot air samples.... ::)
Or Reed College or Oregon State University
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The lower you can get RPV pressure the higher you can raise temperature in the Torus.
Could you please explain the reason behind that?
I'm also not understanding the choice of isolating RCIC. Isn't the steam coming out of the pressure vessel one way or the other? It either comes out the SRV or through the turbine. If it goes through the turbine first at least it can do some good there.
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Could you please explain the reason behind that?
I'm also not understanding the choice of isolating RCIC. Isn't the steam coming out of the pressure vessel one way or the other? It either comes out the SRV or through the turbine. If it goes through the turbine first at least it can do some good there.
To fully explain both of those would take a license class.
To keep it short, the EOPs for a BWR (in the USA) are symptom based. You take action based on those symptoms as you go through the flow charts. On those charts, there are curves. Some of them compare containment pressure and reactor pressure, containment level, etc. What he is talking about is one of those curves, the basis of which is beyond the level of discussion here... at least that I am willing to get into. Maybe someone else will.
Along with the symptom based EOPs, like I said, you act based on what the parameter is doing. Although you have to understand what you are doing, you execute the steps as written. When you run out of steps, you blow down or go to SAMPs (severe accident management procedures). By that time, all the help in the world will be available to you. Also, RCIC won't remove pressure fast enough from the vessel on its own, immediately after shutdown.
Justin
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Could you please explain the reason behind that?
I'm also not understanding the choice of isolating RCIC. Isn't the steam coming out of the pressure vessel one way or the other? It either comes out the SRV or through the turbine. If it goes through the turbine first at least it can do some good there.
When you get into EOP's, there is a correlation between the RPV pressure and the maximum allowable temperature in the Torus. The lower the pressure in the RPV the lower the temperature will be at the saturated condition and therefore there will be less energy that you will have to reject to the Torus if an ED is needed. Since there is less energy to reject, you can put more energy into the Torus (hence the higher allowable temperature).
I'm not sure what you mean by isolating RCIC...?
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Read in an article DG was flown but the plugs didn't work...
So when they got to the point the were going to put service water in, what motive force was used for that? most likely one?
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Hey guys, this thread has attracted a ton of attention from the non-nuke types around the country. Is anyone willing to take the time and summarize what has and is happening Barney style? Great information so far!
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When you get into EOP's, there is a correlation between the RPV pressure and the maximum allowable temperature in the Torus. The lower the pressure in the RPV the lower the temperature will be at the saturated condition and therefore there will be less energy that you will have to reject to the Torus if an ED is needed. Since there is less energy to reject, you can put more energy into the Torus
That didn't take a license class 8)
Got it, you always must have the margin to dump the energy from the pressure vessel into the torus without popping the torus.
I'm not sure what you mean by isolating RCIC...?
If the pressure in the torus is too high, then you must isolate all dumps to the torus, right?
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Sorry if this is a repeat. It is hard to keep track of all the links being provided.
NEI - information on the japanese earthquake and reactors in that region (http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/)
and
ANS Nuclear Cafe (http://ansnuclearcafe.org/)
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That didn't take a license class 8)
The actual curve and basis does. :P 8) You get the idea though.
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Another good source;
http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/
And the latest update from there;
http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news/2011/110314fukushima_event-status-2.pdf
It looks like unit 2 is having some issues. Has the news said anything about it?
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Hey guys, this thread has attracted a ton of attention from the non-nuke types around the country. Is anyone willing to take the time and summarize what has and is happening Barney style? Great information so far!
This will take a while.
Earthquake
Plant Shutdown – Emergency Diesel Generator (EDG) Start due to loss of offsite power
Tsunami
EDG’s shutdown after an hour due to water in the fuel oil system
No EDG’s =Loss of offsite and onsite AC power – still have DC
During the time the plant shutdown and before the EDG’s shutdown the following happened:
Operators completed normal scram procedures
Operators may have started addressing leakage from the reactor if there was any due to the earthquake
Operators restored RPV water level to the normal band (about 16 feet above the fuel rods)
AFTER EDG’s shutdown:
Only power available is DC power so no pumps to remove decay heat from the core.
Built in temporary heat sinks called a “Torus” and isolation condenser used to remove heat from the reactor. These absorb heat from the reactor and condense steam from lifting relief valves and water addition systems called RCIC and HPCI (low and high volume steam driven water pumps)
The temporary heat sinks need their heat removed through what is known as the “Ultimate Heat Sink”(UHS) typically a water system that is highly reliable.
This UHS needs power and clean water to work properly and even if power became available the Tsunami *may* have put mud and debris into the system preventing its function, although it is possible the Ocean was their UHS – in that case the UHS was fine but the pumps needed to deliver this cooling water did not function for some reason (power or leakage or whatever)
RCIC and HPCI are taking this water from the torus and delivering it back to the reactor – there is no cooling system for the HPCI and RCIC system. The suction almost assuredly was from the torus as opposed to another water source due to Tsunami taking out tanks.
Cooling happens for a time but the heat builds up and the temporary heat sinks stop being effective. Hot water from the torus is being re-injected to the reactor and heat removal capability is limited. Pressure starts building in containment (the vessel surrounding the reactor) due to the heat going up in the torus.
After some amount of time DC power is also lost due to no power to recharge the batteries. HPCI, if it was working does not work anymore (if I recall correctly) RCIC still can be operated manually.
Water level in the reactor (which was initially above the fuel – maybe 16 feet maybe less) starts going down
Level in the reactor reaches the fuel level and the fuel starts to heat up… a lot.
The fuel reaches temperatures which cause some fuel damage
The fuel damage creates Hydrogen which is moved from the reactor to the torus .
Venting operations for containment are started and this lowers pressure in containment
Water injection is restarted using seawater, maybe from a fire truck or similar source.
At this point, since RPV pressure is low – and the lube oil system for RCIC needs cool water also - RCIC functioning is doubtful, but you have injection so it is okay.
Fuel in the reactor may or may not have stayed basically intact, hard to say but it seems it may have partially melted based on H2 formation and radiation levels in the drywell vent stream.
H2 explosion due to venting operations, but this actually does not affect the Drywell, torus or reactor so the fuel is still contained within the reactor and the reactor is still contained within the drywell (or containment if you prefer).
Controlled venting will still be performed to keep pressure in containment down as seawater is added to the reactor and also to the torus and drywell.
Surrounding the reactor with water and filling it with water is aimed at cooling everything down… so that is what they are doing now.
I did not proofread this, there may be minor errors.
XF
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Here is a detailed satellite picture showing the damage to the two secondary containments. It appears the roofs have collapsed onto the spent fuel pools (as the forum shrunk it down, the full size version is at http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichi_march14_2011_dg.jpg).
(http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichi_march14_2011_dg.jpg)
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Well done Xe.
So what is the status of the spent fuel pool cooling? Has anyone heard/read anything?
Justin
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Is it really feasible that enough Hydrogen was generated due to the low water levels to cause those explosions? I've seen a couple of people toss around the idea that it could be from the generator H2 cooling system. I just can't get a grasp for the magnitude of Hydrogen generation and the amount needed to fuel those explosions.
For a squid like me who has never seen a generator cooled by H2 (had to take that as a lookup for sure), is it possible that this is the culprit? I think it was GE's site on the machines that said that they typically operate at ~30# and that an oil system acts as a seal (which would be sans a pump at this point).
Just wondering. I have literally zero perspective on this one.
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Is it really feasible that enough Hydrogen was generated due to the low water levels to cause those explosions? I've seen a couple of people toss around the idea that it could be from the generator H2 cooling system. I just can't get a grasp for the magnitude of Hydrogen generation and the amount needed to fuel those explosions.
For a squid like me who has never seen a generator cooled by H2 (had to take that as a lookup for sure), is it possible that this is the culprit? I think it was GE's site on the machines that said that they typically operate at ~30# and that an oil system acts as a seal (which would be sans a pump at this point).
Just wondering. I have literally zero perspective on this one.
No.
The generator is in a different building, the generator could not, and I mean absolutely could NOT cause an explosion in the Reactor Building.
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Wow... whoda thunk that Glen Beck would have had a reasonable explanation for the laymen and partake in shooting down all the talking heads? I guess I might re-evaluate his place on my "idiot" list.
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We have 78 psig H2 in our generator, but like Japan, the turbine and oil systems are in the Turbine Bldg. The buildings that "exploded" were the Reactor buildings. When the fuel is no longer being cooled (below 1500F), water reacts with the zirconium fuel cladding, which strips the water of the O2 and leaving/generating hydrogen. As stated before, the H2 was vented from the reactor to the containment, then from containment to the reactor bldg, and then BOOM! I suspect I'll be seeing this scenario in the control room simulator very soon....
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Wow... whoda thunk that Glen Beck would have had a reasonable explanation for the laymen and partake in shooting down all the talking heads? I guess I might re-evaluate his place on my "idiot" list.
Was thinking the same thing! He definitely put things in terms the average Joe can understand.
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We have 78 psig H2 in our generator, but like Japan, the turbine and oil systems are in the Turbine Bldg. The buildings that "exploded" were the Reactor buildings. When the fuel is no longer being cooled (below 1500F), water reacts with the zirconium fuel cladding, which strips the water of the O2 and leaving/generating hydrogen. As stated before, the H2 was vented from the reactor to the containment, then from containment to the reactor bldg, and then BOOM! I suspect I'll be seeing this scenario in the control room simulator very soon....
Funny you say that. I remember back when I was in class at Peach Bottom, the instructors told us that the owners group was looking at getting rid of the gas flow charts. I bet they don't get rid of them now. :)
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No.
The generator is in a different building, the generator could not, and I mean absolutely could NOT cause an explosion in the Reactor Building.
Broadzilla pitched the idea that the turbine building blew and I seconded the possibility.
Since the turbine building appears relatively intact, I'd say that the possibility of it coming from the generator is nil.
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Funny you say that. I remember back when I was in class at Peach Bottom, the instructors told us that the owners group was looking at getting rid of the gas flow charts. I bet they don't get rid of them now. :)
HAHAHAHA, too late for us. They already moved the charts from the EOP charts to the SAGs, which we rarely practice. It'll be interesting to see what changes next.
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I wasn't slamming on anybody's theory... really. I was just answering the question with the minimum number of words. Mike's theory was reasonable but the location of the damage precluded it.
XF
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HAHAHAHA, too late for us. They already moved the charts from the EOP charts to the SAGs, which we rarely practice. It'll be interesting to see what changes next.
Oh really? Wow yeah that's right, they were talking about moving them to the SAMPs (SAGs). Didn't think it would happen that fast. But honestly, that is where they belong. Just look at this event.... they are clearly deep into their SAMPs, if anything, and that is where this gassing would occur.
Justin
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Is it really feasible that enough Hydrogen was generated due to the low water levels to cause those explosions? I've seen a couple of people toss around the idea that it could be from the generator H2 cooling system. I just can't get a grasp for the magnitude of Hydrogen generation and the amount needed to fuel those explosions.
For a squid like me who has never seen a generator cooled by H2 (had to take that as a lookup for sure), is it possible that this is the culprit? I think it was GE's site on the machines that said that they typically operate at ~30# and that an oil system acts as a seal (which would be sans a pump at this point).
Just wondering. I have literally zero perspective on this one.
The lube oil system has a separate battery to power a coast down pump that is good for better than a day of run down time. Since the turbine building stuff isn't nuclear grade, they can't rely on the EDG to power the pump, hence the longer run down time on the battery (VS 8 hr for the station batteries).
One of the things an operator must do before that battery goes dead is to open a vent valve. The vent releases hydrogen onto a short stack on the turbine building. Given hydrogen's buoyancy, it goes away real quick when vented in the open air. Once the gauge reads zero, the generator is blown through using CO2.
Since the turbine buildings appear undamaged, either the venting went per procedure, or they lucked out when the hydrogen blew out around the seals.
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Thanks guys. I could've sworn I read reports earlier that said it was the turbine building that blew. That nugget of info makes it a little more cut and dry :D.
I had no idea that oxidation of the zirc produced that significant amount of hydrogen.
Thanks again.
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The EOP charts would have directed some thermal recombiner operation for a while and then would have directed sprays and such... all of which would have been unavailable with no power. Let's not forget, the ability to even monitor for H2 would have been lost due to lack of power. I agree though, at least having the charts would have put that in front of you early. As far as not practicing the Severe Accident Guidelines much I truly believe that will be high on the list of training solutions. With the devestation, I doubt the emergency response organization even got to the plant early enough - that leaves Operations on its own. Operators are highly skilled, smart and capable but when you enter the SAG's you really need a lot of technical assistance to make informed decisions. You also need a crap load of available support teams.
XF
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Oh really? Wow yeah that's right, they were talking about moving them to the SAMPs (SAGs). Didn't think it would happen that fast. But honestly, that is where they belong. Just look at this event.... they are clearly deep into their SAMPs, if anything, and that is where this gassing would occur.
Justin
I would say very true on the "deep into the SAMPS" comment, however, our plant manager this morning said that that plant DOESN'T have SAMP/SAGs.....yikes!
On a side note, the seawater injection was stopped for awhile on one of the units, then restarted. I heard a bit on the radio (trustworthy? who knows) that the OPERATORS let the pump run out of fuel. I think they were using a diesel driven fire protection pump. We have 2, with 2 different water sources, that have fuel tanks that would have to be refueled fairly frequently.
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The EOP charts would have directed some thermal recombiner operation for a while and then would have directed sprays and such... all of which would have been unavailable with no power. Let's not forget, the ability to even monitor for H2 would have been lost due to lack of power. I agree though, at least having the charts would have put that in front of you early. As far as not practicing the Severe Accident Guidelines much I truly believe that will be high on the list of training solutions. With the devestation, I doubt the emergency response organization even got to the plant early enough - that leaves Operations on its own. Operators are highly skilled, smart and capable but when you enter the SAG's you really need a lot of technical assistance to make informed decisions. You also need a crap load of available support teams.
XF
Speaking of Hydrogen Recombiners, we *ahem*..... spared those in place. DOH!!!
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I would say very true on the "deep into the SAMPS" comment, however, our plant manager this morning said that that plant DOESN'T have SAMP/SAGs.....yikes!
On a side note, the seawater injection was stopped for awhile on one of the units, then restarted. I heard a bit on the radio (trustworthy? who knows) that the OPERATORS let the pump run out of fuel. I think they were using a diesel driven fire protection pump. We have 2, with 2 different water sources, that have fuel tanks that would have to be refueled fairly frequently.
I am going to save my comments about some of my thoughts about operator knowledge and ability throughout all of this, until all the fact are on the table.
I kind of had a feeling they didn't have procedures quite like ours, just based on the updates coming out.
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I am going to save my comments about some of my thoughts about operator knowledge and ability throughout all of this, until all the fact are on the table.
I kind of had a feeling they didn't have procedures quite like ours, just based on the updates coming out.
Excellent idea...
All the arm-chair QB is no substitute for whats really going on over there....
Information as to what steps have been taken are out there esp for those who are in the House tech realm.
speculation here only adds to the confusion to the folks looking on this site for some information.
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So what is the status of the spent fuel pool cooling? Has anyone heard/read anything?
Justin
I have not read nor heard anything at all. For my uninformed two cents, it seems reasonable to assume Unit 1 spent fuel pool intact, not sure about unit 3 - this is based soley on the video of the explosion and pictures after. People need to understand that the fuel is stored in steel/borated plate racks, under 20+ feet of water in a steel lined pool surrounded by concrete. And unless the plant recently had an outage the heat load in the pool is relatively low, this gives a lot of time to add water to the pool to keep everything in check. Even the roofing materials in the pool should not have impacted the fuel too greatly by itself. But as Justin pointed out - the earthquake changes everything.
XF
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http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/news/2011/11-047.pdf (http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/news/2011/11-047.pdf)
This might be common knowledge by now, but Japan's government has formally asked the U.S. NRC for assistance with the troubled reactors. We've already sent two BWR experts over to help with technical advice. Hopefully they can get this situation under control quickly.
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If these were PWRs, they couldve possibly been steaming away on natural circ all this time.
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If these were PWRs, they couldve possibly been steaming away on natural circ all this time.
It has been a while since I worked at a PWR... IIRC you would use the S/G to dump heat from the primary system adding water to the steam generator via steam driven emergency feedwater pumps. Cooling down the reactor would have required makeup - from safety injection tanks or something like it? Anyway the Emergency feedwater pumps still need a suction source - I can not remember one that would be available in this case???
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Don't you just love the media take on this? :o
Two headlines (different parts of the US) I've read today are equating the loss of life resulting from the 8.9 - 9.0 earthquake and resulting tsumami with the problems at the nuclear facilities.
One of the articles suggested that no lives would have been lost if it wern't for the nuclear problems - even as bodies carried out to sea with the receding surf were washing up on shore.
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It has been a while since I worked at a PWR... IIRC you would use the S/G to dump heat from the primary system adding water to the steam generator via steam driven emergency feedwater pumps. Cooling down the reactor would have required makeup - from safety injection tanks or something like it? Anyway the Emergency feedwater pumps still need a suction source - I can not remember one that would be available in this case???
Would it pull from the Condensate storage tank or RWST? After you have dropped the temp on your primary system, you'll eventually lose the ability to produce steam in the S/Gs. Then you would have to kick over to the RHR system. But in this situation what would you do without power? RHR/LPIS involves use of the EDGs. How would you go about removing decay heat from the position of having lost your EDGs? You would have your cold leg accumulators on the event of a LOCA but what good would these do as far as long term effects of not having use of the RHR system?
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I worked at a PWR, but I'm sure not going to claim a PWR would have fared better!
It has been a while since I worked at a PWR... IIRC you would use the S/G to dump heat from the primary system adding water to the steam generator via steam driven emergency feedwater pumps.
At the plant I worked at the AFW pump required DC power to operate, period. The AFW feed valves were DC and could be positioned by hand. The problem was the throttle valve. It was hydraulic with direct control by the electronic governor.
The steam dumps could be problematic after 8 hours of no power. The operator would have to be very careful with his number of manipulations not to waste his bottled air away without and EDG to pump up the air tanks.
Cooling down the reactor would have required makeup - from safety injection tanks or something like it?
Yeah, the problem is guaranteeing a void free primary that wouldn't impede natural circulation. Beyond 8 hours is a problem here too.
Anyway the Emergency feedwater pumps still need a suction source - I can not remember one that would be available in this case???
Normally it is from the condensate storage tank with service water backup. The fire main is a final backup if the plant is outfitted with the proper connections. Having a working fire truck would be the last line of defense.
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I just saw the news on CBS and Katie had an "expert" on explaining how the reactor worked. He did a good job on explaining everything, but he found it "troubling" that the diesel generators did not fire up. If he had done some legwork as an expert, he would have found out that the fuel oil tanks (yes, they were above ground) were swept out to sea with the tsunami. Gee...how far does your car run on no gas?
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Would it pull from the Condensate storage tank or RWST?
CST feeds the AFW into the steam generators. RWST feeds the primary side pumps and there is no ability to interconnect. RWST is contaminated and the secondary is supposed to be clean so they don't interconnect.
After you have dropped the temp on your primary system, you'll eventually lose the ability to produce steam in the S/Gs. Then you would have to kick over to the RHR system. But in this situation what would you do without power? RHR/LPIS involves use of the EDGs. How would you go about removing decay heat from the position of having lost your EDGs? You would have your cold leg accumulators on the event of a LOCA but what good would these do as far as long term effects of not having use of the RHR system?
In a station blackout you don't let the plant cool enough to stop the steam driven AFW.
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I just saw the news on CBS and Katie had an "expert" on explaining how the reactor worked. He did a good job on explaining everything, but he found it "troubling" that the diesel generators did not fire up. If he had done some legwork as an expert, he would have found out that the fuel oil tanks (yes, they were above ground) were swept out to sea with the tsunami. Gee...how far does your car run on no gas?
We had 8 hours in the generator room. I take it this plant didn't. I wonder how common storage by the generator is?
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Read in an article a DG was flown in but the plugs didn't work...
So when they got to the point they were going to put service/sea water in, what motive force was used for that? most likely one?
anybody have any idea on this one? I'm assuming they finally got some kind of power back to do this?
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Whatever Glenn Beck said to bring a rational voice to the press, Shepard Smith just erased it in his breathless description of another explosion.
Apparently there was just an explosion at Fukushima Daiichi Unit 2.
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In a station blackout you don't let the plant cool enough to stop the steam driven AFW.
Gotcha...so in their case it would have all happened right away so you would maintain the plant so you could run your AFW pump.
I have no PWR experience but trying to learn something. It's challenging to think about the situations of either plant type. Thanks for sharing information.
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Word is that Unit 2 just suffered a hydrogen explosion. No real sources or info yet.
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If these were PWRs, they couldve possibly been steaming away on natural circ all this time.
That was my thought as well... (from my limited knowledge of the difference(s) between PWR and BWRs)..
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In a PWR you've also got the issue of making up to the primary for reactor coolant pump seal bleedoff. While this is typically small during normal operation (say 6 gpm), over a long period of time it starts to become becomes significant (over 8500 gallons lost from the reactor coolant system per day).
Depending on the seal design, the leakage could increase fairly dramatically once AC powered seal cooling is lost. At 25 gpm, the leakage is up to 36,000 gallons per day.
Total RCS volume is probably on the order of 50,000 gallons to 100,000 gallons depending on the specific PWR plant design involved.
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If these were PWRs, they couldve possibly been steaming away on natural circ all this time.
The station blackout was not the issue. The EDGs ran for an hour as they were supposed to do. The Tsunami took out the EDGs. Knowing now that it was a 30 ft tall wave, it would be hard for any nuke plant to survive. If a wave like that had hit my plant, it would have taken out all of the EFW pumps. I don't know how long the turbine driven pumps could run under water, but I bet it is not long.
You also have to consider the suction source. If your CST is gone, your pumps will not matter anyway. The pumps do have backup sources like fire water or Service Water but those would probably be gone too. This was really a worst case situation.
These plants were designed for a Tsunami hit. This tsunami was just too big for them to handle. Like any nuke plant currently in operation, if you break enough emergency systems, you will damage/melt the core.
In a PWR you've also got the issue of making up to the primary for reactor coolant pump seal bleedoff. While this is typically small during normal operation (say 6 gpm), over a long period of time it starts to become becomes significant (over 8500 gallons lost from the reactor coolant system per day).
Depending on the seal design, the leakage could increase fairly dramatically once AC powered seal cooling is lost. At 25 gpm, the leakage is up to 36,000 gallons per day.
Total RCS volume is probably on the order of 50,000 gallons to 100,000 gallons depending on the specific PWR plant design involved.
Seal Leakage drops significantly when the RCPs are stopped. That would not be my concern. I would however be nervous about the shrink of the RCS water after a long time.
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In a PWR you've also got the issue of making up to the primary for reactor coolant pump seal bleedoff. While this is typically small during normal operation (say 6 gpm), over a long period of time it starts to become becomes significant (over 8500 gallons lost from the reactor coolant system per day).
IIRC, isn't it 6 GPM PER PUMP?
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You also have to consider the suction source. If your CST is gone, your pumps will not matter anyway. The pumps do have backup sources like fire water or Service Water but those would probably be gone too. This was really a worst case situation.
These plants were designed for a Tsunami hit. Like any nuke plant currently in operation, if you break enough emergency systems, you will damage/melt the core.
I knew the EDG were damaged by the tsunami; I had not heard about CST etc. being damaged. Does anybody have any information on the damage to aux systems, tanks, etc.? Maybe before and after aerial photos. The post Unit 3 explosion is useful, does anybody have a before photo for comparison?
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IIRC, isn't it 6 GPM PER PUMP?
Not at my plant. I am used to 1.2-1.3 total seal loss via seal return and seal leak off with the pump running. The total seal losses almost goes away when the pump is stopped. The pump would leak off more the lower in pressure you go however.
I knew the EDG were damaged by the tsunami; I had not heard about CST etc. being damaged. Does anybody have any information on the damage to aux systems, tanks, etc.? Maybe before and after aerial photos. The post Unit 3 explosion is useful, does anybody have a before photo for comparison?
I am just trying to illustrate that a wave of this size would leave my PWR in serious trouble. I don't know all the stuff that they lost.
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We were told fuel oil tanks swept out to sea and the basement of their turbine building was flooded with sea water, which is where the ac to dc switchgear is, along with the loss of off site power. The design basis was for a 7 meter tsunami wave and they had a 1000 year 10 meter wave. Seems everything with the plant was ok from the quake, it was the wave/quake and no power that put them in a bind.
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I watched a translated news conference where the spokesman implied that Unit 2's primary containment may have been breached in the most recent explosion. Did anyone hear the same?
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I watched a translated news conference where the spokesman implied that Unit 2's primary containment may have been breached in the most recent explosion. Did anyone hear the same?
I heard the same thing, but am reluctant to repeat it until confirmed. If this preliminary report is true, this is the worst news yet.
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Nothing new NISA, i.e. Unit 2. Latest report link
http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110315-1.pdf
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Word is that Unit 2 just suffered a hydrogen explosion. No real sources or info yet.
MSNBC reports that an explosion was heard at Unit 2:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42066534/ns/world_news-asiapacific/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42066534/ns/world_news-asiapacific/)
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Another good source;
http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/
And the latest update from there;
http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news/2011/110314fukushima_event-status-2.pdf
It looks like unit 2 is having some issues. Has the news said anything about it?
Saw that coming earlier. ::) God help them.
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Who is Robert Alvarez, and why is he allowed to speak in public? -.-
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Saw that coming earlier. God help them.
Indeed - every single individual standing the watch out there at those plants is a full-blown and bona-fide hero in my book.
May God help them.
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I must say. This entire ordeal is kind of sobering. Thinking "oh we have backups to our backups to our backups" this kinda brings that into focus a bit.
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There is some plant info here:
http://www.insc.anl.gov/cgi-bin/rperl/sql_interface?view=newrx_data&qvar=oracle_id&qval=204
http://www.insc.anl.gov/cgi-bin/rperl/sql_interface?view=newrx_data&qvar=oracle_id&qval=205
http://www.insc.anl.gov/cgi-bin/rperl/sql_interface?view=newrx_data&qvar=oracle_id&qval=206
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Why are the EDGs alway in a hole with a lot of access controls when they should be propped up high. I can't be sure if this is a scare tactic or if they really have problems (liberal press and what sells). I know when they used seawater for cooling the reactor they ruined it.
ISOCS
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Burying them in a watertight vault with a 100 foot snorkel mast might be the next wave.
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Burying them in a watertight vault with a 100 foot snorkel mast might be the next wave.
Only if they route the intake through the control room and put the head valve on the surface of the cooling intake (ocean, river, lake, etc.) so the thing can slam shut and suck the ops staffs eardrums out from time to time. That should bring back some fond memories for some of us ... :)
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suppresion pool damage on this one. may be a different animal. may be evacuating the plant.
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You or anyone else care to explain the suppression pool to a PWR guy, and why this is bad?
Possibly a pressure boundary lost?
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You or anyone else care to explain the suppression pool to a PWR guy, and why this is bad?
A BWR suppression pool serves a similar purpose, among other things, to the PZR Quench Tank (or Pressurizer Relief tank, depending upon the designer's nomenclature).
In general (finger quotes) PWR have larger containment buildings that accommodate primary leakage via volume. Again, in general (fq) BWR have a suppression pool (a volume of water greater than that in a PRT or QT) into which the tail pieces downstream of safety (relief) valves are routed. Thus when a relief valve lifts in a BWR the steam water mixture is routed into water in the liquid phase. In a Mark I containment that is the torus; later containment designs have cylindrical suppression pools.
Why bad? Suppression pool damage "COULD" (not saying it's present at Fukishiima) imply containment breech. I actually just heard a report walking back the report of suppression pool damage. It is still to early to know where the Unit 2 explosion took place and what damage occurred; although reports of radiation levels is higher than I have heard yet.
Additionally, the suppression pool can be used as a water source for Rx Core Isolation Cooling (RCIC); a system that uses steam from the vessel to spin a turbine driven pump that then injects water into the vessel via the feedwater lines.
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Why bad? Suppression pool damage "COULD" (not saying it's present at Fukishiima) imply containment breech.
this is why so bad in my opinion. could be worse for the industry than just exploding RBs and degrading cores. gotta protect health and safety of public. just more risk involved now.
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Roger that HamSamich!!!
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The New York Times put out a Google Satellite view that you can compare before and after pictures. Here is the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html
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Quote from REUTERS:
Reuters) - Japan has told the U.N. nuclear watchdog a spent fuel storage pond was on fire at an earthquake-stricken reactor and radioactivity was being released "directly" into the atmosphere, the Vienna-based agency said.
I knew they should've got that pool tarp and garden hose from home depot earlier.
Man, between TEPCO's complete confusion and the media vultures-----what a horrorshow :'(
There goes my job and the nuclear renaissance. The treehuggers are loving this.
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Don't know what to believe but found this quote from the LA Times that quoted TEPCO as saying:
"-----Company officials said workers were not paying sufficient attention to the process, however, and let the pump stall, allowing the fuel rods to become partially exposed to the air.
Once the pump was restarted and water flow was restored, another worker inadvertently closed a valve that was designed to vent steam from the containment vessel. As pressure built up inside the vessel, the pumps could no longer force water into it and the fuel rods were once again exposed.-------"
Now after that FBR leak, contamination and cover up in Japan a few years back, along with the people getting cooked with steam from a ruptured pipe that hadn't been inspected in 28 years that occurred a few years later, and then the Tokaimura incident in 1999 with the uranium bucket pourers--- I'm beginning to wonder------ :-\ Japan's in the midst of a nightmare. :(
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I'm going to throw this out there for food for thought - this is not a hindsight 20/20 moment or anything just an observation. I work at a nuclear power plant just like many of you. I have always been proud of the robust design of the plants I've worked at, felt there was tremendous margin for safety. I still believe this, despite recent tragic events. The plants we have been discussing have experienced natural disasters exceeding their design criteria and they have individually held up better than expected. Yet, a single Act of God has made this situation far, far more challenging than it may have otherwise been had multiple units not been in close proximity to one another. This is not a slam on multi-unit sites, just an apparent fact. The sites of Fukushima 1 and 2 are separated by only a few miles (6 or 7 I believe) and they have vastly different outcomes from this one event.
Plants can not be designed for a complete unknown, it can't be done - how could they design for an asteroid impact right next to a plant or a single act of extreme terrorism or an Earthquake and Tsunami of this strength AT THE SAME TIME? However, with only one unit in the area the full resources at your disposal can be brought to bear to address one unit due to the one event. And degrading plant conditions at one unit does not impede the ability to address plant conditions at another. In this way, our ultimate goal of protecting the health and safety of the public can be better met.
There are beneifts to multi-unit sites to be sure, and likely there are design basis events that multi-unit sites would be better equipped to handle. I am curious to hear other viewpoints.
XF
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I am curious to hear other viewpoints.
XF
XF,
I had similar thoughts cross my mind. This is a disaster of biblical proportion and precise damage reports are still lacking. For example, what is the exact state of the diesel generators, fuel tanks, make-up water tanks, pumps, valves, systems, etc. we know they’re not available – but why is not clear yet. I’ve been looking at the before and after aerial photography, many tanks and other equipment on the “ocean side” of the turbine buildings are still standing; whether they are full of sea water or not is unclear.
It’s been hours since the explosion at Unit 2 and whether or not the suppression pool and containment have been breached is a matter of speculation. There are reports of a ‘spent fuel pool fire” huh? How much flammable material is in the fuel pool? The accident is still unfolding, there will be years to investigate, analyze, and respond to this information. However, with all of that said, and as you prefaced your remarks, this is not to criticize … but:
Whenever assets of any sort are localized and not diversified, the possibility exists for catastrophic loss. This applies to securities (i.e., Enron stock), emergency diesels, food supplies, fresh water, and countless other assets. Co-location of nuclear units has benefits (e.g., shipping, spent fuel storage, licensing, transmission lines, staff support and training, and countless others), but beyond three or four units does the threat to coincident damage due to a single event outweigh those advantages? Off the top of my head, I don’t think there is a US commercial nuclear location with more than three units (e.g., Palo Verde and Nine Mile Point; Dresden and SONGS have three, but unit 1 at both sites have been deactivated).
Other thoughts that have crossed my mind:
These are Mark I and Mark II containments – later designs have passive safety features that are better suited for station blackout conditions. But all designs evolve, automobiles didn’t initially have seat belts. That doesn’t mean that we should abandon any design that has been improved. As is part of our defense-in-depth culture, designs are continually reviewed and analyzed for improvements. Moreover, it means that newer plant designs are the beneficiaries of lessons learned over sixty plus years of operating history.
Geographic diversity of emergency components would avoid collateral and simultaneous damage to adjacent units; in particular from Hydrogen explosions and tsunami.
Installing small capacity and low mass generators that can be located at higher elevations (i.e., enough capacity to run battery chargers to ensure DC control power is available). I’m thinking a small gas turbine. Somebody asked earlier, “why are the EDG always located in a hole?” (or words to that effect). One reason, among others, is they’re big and heavy and are a seismic risk at higher elevations.
I recall naval damage control equipment, in particular a P250 gasoline powered 250 GPM pump. Locating that kind of equipment in at lease two separate locations may avoid delays in responding to major accidents. There is of course a maintenance cost and ensuring availability with any additional equipment added to any site’s assets.
I recall at San Onofre the seawater intake is significantly above sea level; it’s been a while so I don’t want to guess, but I think the large surf surge was a design consideration.
Sorry for rambling … but you asked ...
PJ
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http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1300189582P.pdf
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http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.us.navy.radiation/index.html?hpt=T1
More bad PR as the Navy is keeping distance on the carrier.
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To the experts...what system lines up to remove heat from the fuel pool? And, if those pumps are not functional, how long can spent fuel site with our residual heat removal pumps? I have wondered about the fuel pools because of their close proximity to the explosion area.
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I'm thinking the same thing about the multiple units. This is still speculation, but it would appear that unit 2 was doing well until it was rained on by chunks of the reactor building of unit 3. There are visible large chunks of the building flying in the video of the unit 3 explosion. We all know that the design basis doesn't include multi-ton concrete chunks falling from hundreds of feet in the air.
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From the Nuclear Energy Institute, regarding the Unit 4 Spent Fuel Pool fire:
"At Unit 4 on March 14 at approximately 8:38 p.m. EDT, a fire was reported in the reactor building. It is believed to have been from a lube oil leak in a system that drives recirculation water pumps. Fire fighting efforts extinguished the fire. The roof of the reactor building was damaged."
Ideally (coming from the NEI and alluding to the Japan Atomic Energy Agency) this is somewhat credible...
http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/
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To the experts...what system lines up to remove heat from the fuel pool? And, if those pumps are not functional, how long can spent fuel site with our residual heat removal pumps? I have wondered about the fuel pools because of their close proximity to the explosion area.
There is normally a dedicated system that would cool the fuel pool. Oddly enough called Fuel Pool Cooling System. Basically, this system would recirculate water from the spent fuel pool through heat exchangers, cooled by a closed cooling water system, and demineralizers. Without power, this system would not be functional. The amount of time that the fuel pool could go without cooling is tough to say. It would be a function of how large the fuel pool is, the level and temperature of the water prior to losing cooling, and the amount of spent fuel, and its age, in the pool.
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There is a fuel pool cooling system but keeping the fuel covered with water should be good enough for this situation - boiling action will remove the heat as long as water can be added. "Time to boil" is sometimes how this is measured. The amount of heat in the fuel pool will depend mostly on how much old fuel is in there and how long it has been out of the reactor. Who knows how much electric power they have and what kind of cooling capability the FPCS has at this point. There are temporary decay heat removal systems used at some plants but who knows if they have that operable or close by or at all.
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I usually read and dont post but I am curious if the math is right on this the news is reporting 400 milisiverts/HR as the radiation levels so I did the math and I get 40,000mRem or 40Rem...Way worse than TMI ever saw
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Well the report I posted above has rad levels at 500 MICRO-sieverts/hr at the boundary, which is 50 mrem/hr. If 500 MILLI-sieverts is correct, then you are correct.
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Oh, and here is a handy little calculator for anyone tracking dose, that isn't as familiar with the units they are using... like me.
http://www.convertworld.com/en/equivalent-dose/Microsievert.html
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supposedly the radiation level was 40 Rem/hr between unit 3 and 4 probably due to uncovered fuel from the unit 4 fuel pool. Not sure about this, especially the source, might be Unit 3 reactor but why unit 3 would have higher levels not sure. I would bet it was coming from the dry fuel pool...Other possiblity is the pressure decrease and all the spewed crap that came out of the unit 2 damaged suppression pool. my bet is U4 fuel pool.
I've also hear 821 mrem/hr max at a site boundary level. I think this is lower now. I wish the sources of radiation were more clear.
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I have been struggling to imagine the working conditions these brave heroes are enduring. There is no ventilation, little to absolutely no lighting (flashlights), no elevators, no cranes, no electric tools. It is hot, dark and in some places possibly lethal doses with limited ways to monitor. Yet the heroes persevere, battling to keep their fellow countrymen as safe as possible - sacrificing their own health to do so. I am not being dramatic, I am being honest. I had to say it.
XF
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I have been struggling to imagine the working conditions these brave heroes are enduring. There is no ventilation, little to absolutely no lighting (flashlights), no elevators, no cranes, no electric tools. It is hot, dark and in some places possibly lethal doses with limited ways to monitor. Yet the heroes persevere, battling to keep their fellow countrymen as safe as possible - sacrificing their own health to do so. I am not being dramatic, I am being honest. I had to say it.
XF
Well said. My thoughts are constantly with them.
Justin
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I have been struggling to imagine the working conditions these brave heroes are enduring. There is no ventilation, little to absolutely no lighting (flashlights), no elevators, no cranes, no electric tools. It is hot, dark and in some places possibly lethal doses with limited ways to monitor. Yet the heroes persevere, battling to keep their fellow countrymen as safe as possible - sacrificing their own health to do so. I am not being dramatic, I am being honest. I had to say it.
XF
Absolutely true! Unsung heroes. I hope that they know, that we know, because the press isn't mentioning it.
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That is true the press is just stirring panic to sell papers and get ratings for their news shows but I have not heard any stories of the people that are doing there best to make a difference who are probably worried about there own families yet are still at the plant doing there best at there job.
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Is is true that Shaw is paying $100 bucks an hour, $500 a day and $7000 in and out, tax free for RP Techs.?
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Is is true that Shaw is paying $100 bucks an hour, $500 a day and $7000 in and out, tax free for RP Techs.?
There is a separate thread for that discussion.
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,27026.0.html
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Can someone explain why they are being so enigmatic about the situation? I understand they are having serious issues, but why cant they explain what they think is going instead of these vague "RCIC isnt working" statements???
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I have been struggling to imagine the working conditions these brave heroes are enduring. There is no ventilation, little to absolutely no lighting (flashlights), no elevators, no cranes, no electric tools. It is hot, dark and in some places possibly lethal doses with limited ways to monitor. Yet the heroes persevere, battling to keep their fellow countrymen as safe as possible - sacrificing their own health to do so. I am not being dramatic, I am being honest. I had to say it.
XF
Thanks for saying it...I have been discussing this very issue at work.
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Can someone explain why they are being so enigmatic about the situation? I understand they are having serious issues, but why cant they explain what they think is going instead of these vague "RCIC isnt working" statements???
They have more important things to do than teach a nub systems. :P
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They have more important things to do than teach a nub systems. :P
How else will we learn?! :P
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also from NEI
At approximately 6:00 today, an abnormal noise began emanating from nearby the pressure suppression chamber of Fukushima Daiichi Power Station. Given that the pressure within this chamber had decreased, it was believed that this was an indication that an abnormality had arisen. From this point on, while water injection operations are still underway, the temporary transfer to a safe place of TEPCO employees and workers from other companies not directly involved with this work has begun.
Currently, at Fukushima Dai-ichi Power Station, the remaining workers are doing their best to secure the safety and security of the site.
The parameters for Unit 2’s nuclear containment vessel and the containment vessel show no significant change.
We are aware of and sincerely apologize for the great distress and inconvenience this incident has caused to not just those inhabitants residing in the immediate vicinity but also society at large.
Q and A for this release.
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Q. Is there any change of the value at the monitoring post?
A. At the monitoring post 4,
Before the abnormal sounds : 73.2μSv / h (6AM) After the abnormal sounds : 1,941μSv / h (7:50AM)
Q. Is it hydrogen explosion?
A. At 6:14AM, odd sounds happened near the pressure restraint room and the pressure in the pressure restraint room goes down low. So, we think that it caused some problem in the room.
We are investigating further information.
Q. Are there any injured people?
A. We do not know at this moment.
==================================
(2)Building Damage of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station Unit 4
15 Mar, 2011
TEPCO
Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station
At approximately 6:00AM, a large sound occurred on the site of the power station. After that, damage was confirmed around the roof of the reactor building on the 4th floor.
After usage, fuel is stored in a pool designated for spent fuel.
The status of the plant and the effects of offsite radioactivity are now under investigation.
TEPCO continues to take all measure to restore the safety and security of the site and are monitoring the site’s immediate surroundings.
Q and A
Q What is the pool temperature?
A Normal temperature is around 25 C, but at 4:18 on March 14 it was 84 C.
We have no record after this.
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(3) [Unit 1 Fukushima Daiichi] 1F-4 Fire Reactor building of 1F-4 is on fire. Efforts are being made to extinguish the fire.
The cause of this fire is estimated hydrogen explosion due to increase of spent fuel pool temperature.
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(4) Other information
At 10:22 a.m. on March 15, monitoring result shown 30 mSv/hr between unit 2 and 3,
400 mSv/hr near unit 3, 100 mSv/hr near unit 4.
The reason of this high value is attributed to the fire at unit 4.
(Monitoring results before and after the unit 2 explosion changed little.)
Number of Personnel at the site was 800 at 6:00am, now reduced to 50, necessary for water injection to unit 1,2 and 3. Water injection to units 1,2 and 3 are in progress. Reactor pressure is stable.
Saw some scuttle a few pages ago about the h2, it ain't from the turbine its a combo of hydrolysis from the sea water and radiolysis
sf
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They have more important things to do than teach a nub systems. :P
I was implying more so the international community could decipher vs my own personal curiousity. You know good and well I'll come bug you with a specific question. But I just dont see the reason why they wouldnt want as many eyes on this as possible. As knowledgable as you are, you are ultimately guessing, which is crap. If they have the time to report that certain activities are going on, why cant they elaborate a little bit. O.o
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I was implying more so the international community could decipher vs my own personal curiousity. You know good and well I'll come bug you with a specific question. But I just dont see the reason why they wouldnt want as many eyes on this as possible. As knowledgable as you are, you are ultimately guessing, which is crap. If they have the time to report that certain activities are going on, why cant they elaborate a little bit. O.o
I think the updates are pretty detailed, depending on where you are looking. There are far too many parameters that they can't possibly report them all.... assuming they even have any parameters to report. There is only certain instrumentation that would be operable after a station black out.
All I need/want to know is reactor level, reactor pressure, containment temperature, containment level and containment pressure. At this point, those are the important parameters in a BWR. The only one I am not getting some sore of trend on regularly is containment temperature, but knowing pressure is just as good, temperature would just be "nice to know."
System status... nothing is working. What more do you need to know about that?
Justin
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I think it is time to quit speculating and start praying. I pray for the men and women of Japan and those who are have been at those power plants giving their lives to save their fellow countrymen. May God guide them and help them all through this terrible situtation.
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That is true the press is just stirring panic to sell papers and get ratings for their news shows but I have not heard any stories of the people that are doing there best to make a difference who are probably worried about there own families yet are still at the plant doing there best at there job.
Well, we finally got one.... a story that credits them as the heroes that they are.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1# (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1#)
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I have been struggling to imagine the working conditions these brave heroes are enduring. There is no ventilation, little to absolutely no lighting (flashlights), no elevators, no cranes, no electric tools. It is hot, dark and in some places possibly lethal doses with limited ways to monitor. Yet the heroes persevere, battling to keep their fellow countrymen as safe as possible - sacrificing their own health to do so. I am not being dramatic, I am being honest. I had to say it.
XF
Don't forget the fear of multi-ton chunks of plant flying through the air. After one explosion they know there could be more.
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Well, we finally got one.... a story that credits them as the heroes that they are.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1# (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1#)
Damn glad to see that. I know we are all praying for the brave people on the site.
I also thought I would share this site. It's a decent for dummies type thing that could help those of us in the Nub column.
http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/
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More of a voice of reason about the issues in Japan and their effect here: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/262156/japan-nuclear-update-iain-murray
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My prayers to Japan's Nuclear Workers. God Bless Them
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I also found one that gives them their due.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/japanese-nuclear-plant-workers-emerging-as-heroic-figures-in-tragedy (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/japanese-nuclear-plant-workers-emerging-as-heroic-figures-in-tragedy)
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I think the updates are pretty detailed, depending on where you are looking. There are far too many parameters that they can't possibly report them all.... assuming they even have any parameters to report. There is only certain instrumentation that would be operable after a station black out.
All I need/want to know is reactor level, reactor pressure, containment temperature, containment level and containment pressure. At this point, those are the important parameters in a BWR. The only one I am not getting some sore of trend on regularly is containment temperature, but knowing pressure is just as good, temperature would just be "nice to know."
System status... nothing is working. What more do you need to know about that?
Justin
Where are you getting your info if you dont mind. All I have seen has been "its broken, this and that arent working" with no real explanation on the extent of the damage. Even from your posts, you seem to be speculating a lot with simple information they are providing. It ultimately makes zero difference to me at the end of the day.
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Where are you getting your info if you dont mind. All I have seen has been "its broken, this and that arent working" with no real explanation on the extent of the damage. Even from your posts, you seem to be speculating a lot with simple information they are providing. It ultimately makes zero difference to me at the end of the day.
Well, I know you were asking Justin, not me and I do not know where he has been getting his information from. I do know where I have been getting my information on current plant status from and most of those links have been posted in this thread (nei, iaea, tepco news, bbc.co.uk, JAIF [thanks Justin], and yes CNN and the rest). I have taken what dribbles out and combined it with 20 years of experience in operating nuclear power plants. I have been licensed by the NRC for 8 years - 3 of those as an SRO. I have the EXACT SAME containment (Mark I) and very nearly the same equipment (somewhat newer). While no one outside or inside the plants knows exactly what has occurred, with the amount of knowledge, training and experience many on this board have we are probably in the best position to give an idea of the “goings on”. Does all of that make me an expert... Yes, yes it does.
As to why there is not more detailed information, I think that has been amply covered.
Smite Away,
XF
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What Xe said.
I and he and others have posted many links CM.
Are you reading the thread?
JAIF is what I am using most.
Justin
PS Xe good to have another SRO on board. I licensed at Peach Bottom and am now going for my PWR at Beaver Valley.
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http://www.truth-out.org/tokyo-electric-build-us-nuclear-plants-the-no-bs-info-japans-disastrous-nuclear-operators68457
Tokyo Electric to Build US Nuclear Plants: The No BS Info on Japan's Disastrous Nuclear Operators
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The administration, just months ago, asked Congress to provide a $4 billion loan guarantee for two new nuclear reactors to be built and operated on the Gulf Coast of Texas - by TEPCO and local partners. As if the Gulf hasn't suffered enough. Here are the facts about TEPCO and the industry you haven't heard on CNN:
The failure of emergency systems at Japan's nuclear plants comes as no surprise to those of us who have worked in the field.
Nuclear plants the world over must be certified for what is called "SQ" or "Seismic Qualification." That is, the owners swear that all components are designed for the maximum conceivable shaking event, be it from an earthquake or an exploding Christmas card from al-Qaeda.
The most inexpensive way to meet your SQ is to lie. The industry does it all the time. The government team I worked with caught them once, in 1988, at the Shoreham plant in New York. Correcting the SQ problem at Shoreham would have cost a cool billion, so engineers were told to change the tests from "failed" to "passed."
The company that put in the false safety report? Stone & Webster, now the nuclear unit of Shaw Construction, which will work with TEPCO to build the Texas plant. Lord help us.
...
This thread is growing fast. Sorry if this has been previously posted. Can anyone in the industry say if this guy is full of it or not?
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Well, I know you were asking Justin, not me and I do not know where he has been getting his information from. I do know where I have been getting my information on current plant status from and most of those links have been posted in this thread (nei, iaea, tepco news, bbc.co.uk, JAIF [thanks Justin], and yes CNN and the rest). I have taken what dribbles out and combined it with 20 years of experience in operating nuclear power plants. I have been licensed by the NRC for 8 years - 3 of those as an SRO. I have the EXACT SAME containment (Mark I) and very nearly the same equipment (somewhat newer). While no one outside or inside the plants knows exactly what has occurred, with the amount of knowledge, training and experience many on this board have we are probably in the best position to give an idea of the “goings on”. Does all of that make me an expert... Yes, yes it does.
As to why there is not more detailed information, I think that has been amply covered.
Smite Away,
XF
No smite from me dude. Consider yourself on my list for sme :) of course that means you get to answer my annoying questions from time to time.
I guess its my nubliness that prevents me from. Getting the same picture you guys do. Im tryi g to relate fukushima to river bend and the how's and whys, but I know that's not the most feasible thing to do.
Ill check out that jaif thing when I get home. Thanks.
Dead serious about the question thing ;) ask justin and mikey haha
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Anybody see this drivel from ABC:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fukushima-mark-nuclear-reactor-design-caused-ge-scientist/story?id=13141287
I responded with this, but ran out of characters:
1. The story is the human tragedy of thousands dead, injured, homeless, lost, hungry, ruined, and devastated by a 9.0 quake followed by a tsunami.
a very distant second
2. Japan relies on nuclear power for about 30% of its energy, plant operators and engineers are experiencing cooling issues and have elevated radiation levels at the Fukushima Daiichi. 11 plants that were automatically shutdown (scrammed) as designed due to high seismic activity.
Now there are problems with potential for serious consequences, but let's catch our breath and let the professionals go to work. Most in the press have no idea what they're talking about. This article is just another of far too many examples.
1. The reactor is not a Mark I - Unit 1 is a BWR-3, Units 2 - 6 are BWR-4.
2. Units 1 - 5 have Mark I containments.
3. Unit 6 has a Mark II containment.
4. The problem is not the containment, they are functioning as designed. The only reported exception to that is the explosion on March 15 in Unit 2 - and that possible damage is not confirmed.
5. The hydrogen explosions in units 1 & 3 caused blow out panels in the reactor buildings to do what they are designed to do - blow out. Look at the drawings of a Mark 1 reactor building and the before and after photographs - the exposed iron at the top of the building with the missing panels is too precise not to be design behavior. The hydrogen explosions in units 1 & 3 did not breach their containments.
6. The problem is related to a sustained station blackout due to nearly coincident design basis accidents. The plants survived the 9.0 earth quake. The three operating units at Fukushima Daiichi shutdown as designed due to excess seismic activity; the diesels started and powered the emergency core cooling systems (EECS). Then the tsunami wiped out the diesels (exactly how is not clear yet; some have said the fuel tanks were destroyed, in time we'll learn more)
Then I ran out of space. Some of my responses were addressing some comments posted by readers. I sent my response to the editors at ABC News. Over the week I wrote to Fox News after they got their facts wrong. Last night I wrote to O'Reilly, his fair and balanced reporting had two guest 'experts' an MD who founded a Chernobyl society (noble work, but not relevant to Japan's nuclear problems) and a journalist who formerly covered the nuclear industry.
I urge all of you to respond to media that don't get the facts right. I'm furious with talking heads breathlessly whipping up a frenzy and they can't even get their facts straight. That is the easy part, design debates, engineering trade-offs, public policy, and other stuff is hard. Respectfully and professionally correct them on their errors.
And kudos to CNN - they interviewed one of my professors (emeritus) from the UC Berkeley Nuclear Engineering Department; Donald Olander; one of the leading authorities on nuclear fuel design, transient behavior, and nuclear materials. He also happens to be a brilliant man, a great teacher, and a kind human being.
PJ
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[
color=blue]Does all of that make me an expert... Yes, yes it does.[/color]
Xe and who ever else is familiar with this design:
How difficult it is to work on the plant? It seems the on site personal has not responded in any meaningful way to place the plant in a safe condition. Is the Reactor emergency cooling system accessible? Are there "easy, possible, any means to tap" into the emergency cooling system? Are the pump/motors easily replaced? They are flanged in or welded? Is most of the switchgear off the lower level so it should not have been totally saturated? I would estimate the emergency cooling pumps would be small to minimize battery drain...
Once you are outside the design parameters, and the op's management has declared a site emergency, does that give the engineers free reign to modify/fix/replace/remove as needed?
Doesn't appear the site is getting much help from corporate HQ. They should have a full staff of design engineers, maintenance, and management staff to help the situation. If they do, it doesn't seem like they are a hell of a lot. The site looks like the are just running around reacting to problems instead of getting in front of them.
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I will preface all comments with the following: I have never worked or been inside a foreign nuclear power plant, I am not familiar with Japanese regulations, and I certainly do not speak for any plant, company nor the industry here in America. So, all that being said, this is how it would work here.
10 CFR 50.54 x and y give an SRO all the authority he needs to make any decision regarding the actions of a facility to address an emergency (CFR - Code of Federal regulations). There are also provisions regarding the federal government, in cases of national emergencies, providing direction - the SRO is still responsible for any actions taken... just part of the responsibility.
There are literally several hundred if not thousands (globally) of support people working on these problems - it is not a lack of knowledge or people it is a complete lack of options. Can a pump be spliced into and provided power – yes I believe that could be done. Could a pump be replaced – not likely – no power for cranes. If there is leakage on piping could it be welded – early on yes, now, no – H2 buildup in the reactor building has made this a very hazardous option.
The problem with any of these options is when an emergency like this is occurring people aren’t just running around with some good ideas and a wrench. There is a command structure, there are teams of personnel who need to be briefed - teams consisting of Radiological Technicians for monitoring dose, electricians, mechanics, operators and others. Some teams for assessing the plant condition, some for fixing it, some for damage control. These teams can not just get to every area in the plant without understanding the radiological conditions as well as the numerous other hazards that exist now. The teams need equipment and materials to perform their functions, these must be obtained. There is no AC power, there is no installed equipment that will help them right now that is not DC or diesel driven (thinking of fire pumps). Their EDG’s are not available, many of their switchgear locations are outside of the reactor building (I’m guessing but our Reactor Building only contains 480V and below) so that seems good – but you have to remember the Tsunami may have impacted them. The Reactor Building is waterproof but the Turbine Building is probably not.
The difficulties are hard to explain to someone outside of the industry, but that is what I’ve got.
XF
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So...
Basically, these brave people were screwed as soon as the EDGs essentially disappeared and they are now trying to fix the unfixable.
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From IAEA earlier today...40 R ain't from radon
Japan Earthquake Update (15 March 2011, 11:25 UTC)
Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant Update
Radiation Dose Rates Observed at Site
The Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA that the following radiation dose rates have been observed on site at the main gate of the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant.
At 00:00 UTC on 15 March a dose rate of 11.9 millisieverts (mSv) per hour was observed. Six hours later, at 06:00 UTC on 15 March a dose rate of 0.6 millisieverts (mSv) per hour was observed.
These observations indicate that the level of radioactivity has been decreasing at the site.
As reported earlier, a 400 millisieverts (mSv) per hour radiation dose observed at Fukushima Daiichi occurred between Units 3 and 4. This is a high dose-level value, but it is a local value at a single location and at a certain point in time. The IAEA continues to confirm the evolution and value of this dose rate. It should be noted that because of this detected value, non-indispensible staff was evacuated from the plant, in line with the Emergency Response Plan, and that the population around the plant is already evacuated.
About 150 persons from populations around the Daiichi site have received monitoring for radiation levels. The results of measurements on some of these people have been reported and measures to decontaminate 23 of them have been taken. The IAEA will continue to monitor these developments.
Evacuation of the population from the 20 kilometre zone is continuing.
The Japanese have asked that residents out to a 30 km radius to take shelter indoors. Japanese authorities have distributed iodine tablets to the evacuation centres but no decision has yet been taken on their administration.
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So...
Basically, these brave people were screwed as soon as the EDGs essentially disappeared and they are now trying to fix the unfixable.
Well, no not at all. You see we operate with a heirarchy of procedures, to address the spectrum of operational parameters.
Normal Operating procedures - everything's normal
Abnormal Operating Procedures - something is wrong but it is relatively minor but there is no challenge to key plant parameters, requires immediate attention
Emergency Operating Procedures - One of our key plant parameters is not normal and requires immediate attention
Severe Accident Guidelines – Something is very wrong with one or more of our key plant parameters and every single normal method of controlling it has failed (this is where Fukushima is now)
And lastly we have, Extreme Damage Mitigation
These procedures have completely new and potentially hazardous methods for minimizing the impact to areas outside the plant. You have given up any control of the plant but there are still actions that can be taken to lessen the impact.
Keep in mind that, while not an oath, our mission – every single person in nuclear power from management on down to the plant cleaners – is to protect the health and safety of the public in every way. We produce electricity but that is a by-product, protecting your safety is absolutely number one. I truly hope you believe this, I can say it no clearer.
Let’s also keep in mind that we have an awful lot of crafty engineers, designers, operators and maintenance personnel coupled with true leaders that can still pull this one out. I still have faith.
XF
PS - this is not aimed at people who work in nuclear power, you already know all of this.
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The difficulties are hard to explain to someone outside of the industry, but that is what I’ve got
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I currently support nuclear steam turbine work as the senior project manager for a major steam turbine OEM doing steam path retro fits..ie EPU. I have mostly fossil, gas, and manufacturing (in the 90's when nuke was on life support). I was a swabbie where I cleaned up most of the time and then stood a nuke watch in my spare time. Much simpler plants to be sure.
Before I pass any judgement, I just needed to know the constraints the people have to work under.
To me, it looks like they are totally incompetent. At every level. I would expect EDG's to be Helo'd in. Plus, Parts, pipes, motors, pumps, power cables. The weather has been perfect. They have multiple plants right next to them for parts. Tokyo is a hours helo away. They have a large support staff to get the site anything they want. I see nothing being flown in, I see nothing being staged, I see no recovery plan. I see nothing that makes me think they know what they are doing (and the voting general public see's the same thing). HQ has access to world resources.
No cranes? I use a gas powered fork truck, or move a EDG into place, strip out the MCC if water damaged, and tie into my critical loads. Or I manual haul them with chain falls. Shorted? I strip out the bus work, find the short, dry it out/fix it, or jumper around it. Worst case, I put my diesel to the motor and power it directly. hard wire it in. wrong Voltage? I rip the old pump/motor out, have a pump and skid already to put in place, and install it. Pipe damaged? cut it out and weld in another. or patch it. or bypass it. or rig/manufacture new.
They sat there and watched the expended fuel tank go dry when they have an ocean 100 yards away? No one can figure out how to move water from point a to b in 4 days? So now it catches on fire and it make the industry look like a bunch of clowns that don't know what they are doing.
They had 3 days to respond to get in front of the problems and it appears they did nothing.
It should have seen a bee hive of activity over the weekend with EDG lighting up the night as fitters, welders, electricians work repairs in perfect weather. Maybe the Japan nuke industry is run by the government because usually you only see such extreme incompetency in a gov operation.
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@Mr. Muffin
You should check into flights out there, they could surely use someone as singularly capable as you. Don't forget to pack your cape.
XF
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Unit 4 fp fuel is on fire again....been for awhile.
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Unit 4 fp fuel is on fire again....been for awhile.
From the NEI (http://nei.cachefly.net/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/):
Tokyo Electric Power Co. said that an oil leak in a cooling water pump at Unit 4 was the cause of a fire that burned for approximately 140 minutes. The fire was not in the spent fuel pool, as reported by several media outlets. Unit 4 was in a 105-day-long maintenance outage at the time of the earthquake and there is no fuel in the reactor.
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My cape? that is funny. I guess the problem is "too hard". I think the public having to flee the area thinks it is funny too because people that are paid to solve problems can't do their jobs.
See, there is nothing special about what I just described. In a paper mill (and other similar plants) , this is standard weekend stuff to keep the mill running. Of course, when the millwright didn't complete a weld the problem didn't extend pass the mill. But this plant should be in "paper mill" mode.
Yeah, I think they should just keep on doing what they are doing and eventually the core will cool down. After 3 explosions all caught on tape, 2 completely trashed reactors, fire in expended fuel tank..no, two fires. radiation releases. High radiation alarms. Contaminating an aircraft carrier 100 miles off shore. Possible breach in the primary containment. Plant looks like a yard sale. Letting fuel run out of the EDG's. The only thing we are missing is benny hill running around.
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fp means fuel pool, check my post bleyse.
Reuters - Experts say spent fuel rods in a cooling pool at the No. 4 reactor could be exposed by the fire and spew more radiation into the atmosphere. Operator Tokyo Electric Power said it was considering using a helicopter to dump boric acid, a fire retardant, on the facility
maybe the fuel pool isn't on fire, but it looks like it is being affected.
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Before I pass any judgement, I just needed to know the constraints the people have to work under.
Too late, you already have.
To me, it looks like they are totally incompetent. At every level. I would expect EDG's to be Helo'd in. Plus, Parts, pipes, motors, pumps, power cables. The weather has been perfect.
I'm sure these parts and materials are readily available after a 9.0 earthquake and tsunami have rocked their country destroying most buildings, stores, and manufacturers. Oh and I'm sure that everything that is needed will be "off the shelf" since most plants use parts that are readily available at any time. They spec' em' all the same right?
No cranes? I use a gas powered fork truck, or move a EDG into place, strip out the MCC if water damaged, and tie into my critical loads. Or I manual haul them with chain falls. Shorted? I strip out the bus work, find the short, dry it out/fix it, or jumper around it. Worst case, I put my diesel to the motor and power it directly. hard wire it in. wrong Voltage? I rip the old pump/motor out, have a pump and skid already to put in place, and install it. Pipe damaged? cut it out and weld in another. or patch it. or bypass it. or rig/manufacture new.
They sat there and watched the expended fuel tank go dry when they have an ocean 100 yards away? No one can figure out how to move water from point a to b in 4 days? So now it catches on fire and it make the industry look like a bunch of clowns that don't know what they are doing.
They had 3 days to respond to get in front of the problems and it appears they did nothing.
It should have seen a bee hive of activity over the weekend with EDG lighting up the night as fitters, welders, electricians work repairs in perfect weather. Maybe the Japan nuke industry is run by the government because usually you only see such extreme incompetency in a gov operation.
I'm sure all of this work is easily done without knowing how safe the given area is after some of these hydrogen explosions and radiation levels constantly changing. Speculation is one thing but you may have taken it a bit far with this post.
I pray that these operators/engineers working around the clock to fix these problems will soon get this situation under control. God help them as they have had one rough situation. I can't even begin to imagine the type of conditions they are in.
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My cape? that is funny. I guess the problem is "too hard". I think the public having to flee the area thinks it is funny too because people that are paid to solve problems can't do their jobs.
See, there is nothing special about what I just described. In a paper mill (and other similar plants) , this is standard weekend stuff to keep the mill running. Of course, when the millwright didn't complete a weld the problem didn't extend pass the mill. But this plant should be in "paper mill" mode.
Yeah, I think they should just keep on doing what they are doing and eventually the core will cool down. After 3 explosions all caught on tape, 2 completely trashed reactors, fire in expended fuel tank..no, two fires. radiation releases. High radiation alarms. Contaminating an aircraft carrier 100 miles off shore. Possible breach in the primary containment. Plant looks like a yard sale. Letting fuel run out of the EDG's. The only thing we are missing is benny hill running around.
Man, and people think Im dumb.... -.-
Your 90% experience on non-nuclear plants is taking its toll on your ability to think things through. It is a mess, no doubt. But until you hop on a plane and fly over there to help, keep your mouth shut until you decide to say something productive.
edit : did you really compare a paper mill to this situation??!
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Friends,
Let us not allow one troll distract us from what is important.
Justin
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Friends,
Let us not allow one troll distract us from what is important.
Justin
I agree Justin. The support of the Japanese and their efforts to fix the reactors is more important.
I'd give you karma but I'm all out for the day...
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They had 3 days to respond to get in front of the problems and it appears they did nothing.
Maybe you can go over there and deliver that message personally to all those "slackers" who are volunteering as Rem sponges to clean up the mess. Volunteering, mind you, in the middle of a landscape of unimaginable devastation, where they no doubt have missing family and friends, and lives left in ruin.
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Updated report from Jim Walsh on Anderson Cooper 360- "...A new problem. Units 4, 5, and 6 contain spent fuel rods! Another bad decision to store the nuclear waste next to the reactor." Wow!! Great, great reporting of the facts, and what is actually happening.
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Updated report from Jim Walsh on Anderson Cooper 360- "...A new problem. Units 4, 5, and 6 contain spent fuel rods! Another bad decision to store the nuclear waste next to the reactor." Wow!! Great, great reporting of the facts, and what is actually happening.
After the latest bout of media frenzy, Im not surprised anymore. AC360 is usually pretty decent, but everyone is running around like a chicken with their heads cut off. :(
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Loffy Muffin (interesting), these people are dealing with one of the top five seismic events in history, read well beyond design basis, a tsunami, also above design basis, six facilities in a world of hurt, most likely with homes destroyed..family hurt or missing...and you are comparing this to a paper mill...Wilco Tango Foxtrot!?
Note: this is my second attempt to post this...oh, the internet is slow, didn't work the way I thought it should, in the time that I thought it should..well I guess that is out of my control.
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Updated report from Jim Walsh on Anderson Cooper 360- "...A new problem. Units 4, 5, and 6 contain spent fuel rods! Another bad decision to store the nuclear waste next to the reactor." Wow!! Great, great reporting of the facts, and what is actually happening.
Unit 4 fp fuel is on fire again....been for awhile.
It all depends on which report you are looking at - most are now equating the deaths from the 8.9 - 9.0 earthquake and resulting tsumami to the problems at Fukushima Daiichi not the other way around!
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I am choking.....I don't know why I am watching this. You really need to tune in to CNN AC360 to realize how bad these reports are coming out. Did you know that the "more modern plants" these days store spent fuel under ground? According to Jim Walsh, anyway.
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did you really compare a paper mill to this situation??!
Yes, I compared it to a paper mill. Because in a mill, you strip all the constraints away, you see what you have that works, what things can do-not what it is designed to do. What is possible.. not what can't be done. Not what something is not suppose to do. You stay in your in "can't be done box", you'll never meet you time line for repair.. which what should have been done in the first couple hours. "We have 2-3 days to get something to work. what is possible in 2 days?, what works, what doesn't? "
When working with tightly coupled systems, with little flexibility, you have to get in front of the problem or it will trigger a chain events related and unrelated that will complex the problem beyond what you ever imagined. Have I connected all the dots for you chucky? Do i need to draw little stick pictures? Puppets? Stick to what you are an expert at chucky, like gaming the navy for medical leave and stealing tax payer money.
I'm sure all of this work is easily done without knowing how safe the given area is after some of these hydrogen explosions and radiation levels constantly changing. Speculation is one thing but you may have taken it a bit far with this post.[/quote
They waited too long to effect repairs was the problem...it's too late now. You have a yard sale for a plant, high rad areas, probably contamination. They are in total reactive mode now, responding to one emergency after another.
You had three days to helo in what you needed. You have 3 plants to steal parts from. You did have no unexpected radiation restrictions, parts of the plant would have been working or salvable, no venting off of Hydrogen and good weather, the plant structure is fine and survived the quake.
No, I did not pass judgement on them until I knew they were not restricted by restraints that would push any time line pass any reasonable repair. if they didn't have a "go to hell mode", you can't get parts past QA, you need work packages, drawing, engineering stamps...then its impossible. You have to remove those normal constraints. If they were constrained by those factors, there would be nothing they could do in 2 days to respond. Or a month. They need to have quick on site/HQ peer checks to execute work...ie paper mill mode. Or refinery mode. Or chemical plant mode (do a lesser degree), or just about everywhere else but a nuke plant mode.
This situation was mostly avoidable but to do inaction by the site person to effect a clear repair plan early in the event, a chain reaction of events occurred leading to the destruction of 3, possible 4 plants with release of radiation to area. The damage and release of radiation could have been avoided with proper leadership.
And it isn't over yet.
And most of the nukes here feel it is justifiable. And now we know why the industry is in the shape its in.
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I am choking.....I don't know why I am watching this. You really need to tune in to CNN AC360 to realize how bad these reports are coming out. Did you know that the "more modern plants" these days store spent fuel under ground? According to Jim Walsh, anyway.
Here are some results of irresponsible reporting :
"What are the probabilities of North Korea orchestrating a under water explosive device that created a earthquake and tsunami directed at Japan and the nuclear power plants?"
"I honestly think this is horrible.
Plenty of people are going to be affected by these nuclear explosions.
Even people living around Japan."
"has anyone heard if the radiation is going to affect the US."
and haha, my personal favorite
"I saw a neutron ring with one of the reactors when it blew . This is a sign of radiation escaping."
I consider it an equal shame that people are this ignorant :(
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What's a neutron ring??? :P
Lost in the midst of all that is going on, but a fact worth mentioning.... Since the initial earthquake, Japan has experienced nearly 400 aftershocks.. 44 of which registered greater than 6.0, and four of which were 7.0 or greater... These are major earthquakes, 4 of which were of the same magnitude that caused a fair amount of destruction in San Francisco in 1989.. I doubt it even computes for the people actually living through this nightmare.
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Friends,
Let us not allow one troll distract us from what is important.
Justin
Great advice that bears repeating (Less than an hour later) We accomplish nothing with the puffery and quite frankly this thread IS NOT the one that needs it. In 4 1/2 days y'all have posted 12 pages of great information, people have been educated, and I can't adequately express the pride I have in this single thread.
What say we refocus, huh? (& Thanks for all the learning that all y'all have given not only to me but to all who have viewed this thread) Don't forget that we are and will always be in the limelight and representatives of the industry just by being in it.
Peace,
Tom
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What's a neutron ring??? :P
Lost in the midst of all that is going on, but a fact worth mentioning.... Since the initial earthquake, Japan has experienced nearly 400 aftershocks.. 44 of which registered greater than 6.0, and four of which were 7.0 or greater... These are major earthquakes, 4 of which were of the same magnitude that caused a fair amount of destruction in San Francisco in 1989.. I doubt it even computes for the people actually living through this nightmare.
WOW! I remember a few 6's in the 90's when I lived in okinawa, and those were SCARY. I truly cant imagine the turmoil they are experiencing. :(
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Friends,
Let us not allow one troll distract us from what is important.
Justin
If they were given full freedom to effect repairs, the fault lies at the feet of the personal to take timely action to prevent what may be the death nell for new builds in the US. In the US, it looks like you can take the gloves off and execute repairs with on the deck peer checks. If they could not do that in Japan (and I don't know), then the site had their hands tied and the fault lies at the feet of corporate with their procedures.
The design held up enough through the quake. It gave the personal 3 days to execute a plan to modify the current cooling system. they failed.
At any rate, its a PR nightmare.
The important thing is the public perception which is in tatters....and justifiably so, I might add. If there is any significant radiation release...
The bottom line is you have to be able to show the public you can maintain the plant integrity in all conditions. Overcome adversity. Not make excuses. Not cry its too tough. Can't be done.
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My cape? that is funny. I guess the problem is "too hard". I think the public having to flee the area thinks it is funny too because people that are paid to solve problems can't do their jobs.
See, there is nothing special about what I just described. In a paper mill (and other similar plants) , this is standard weekend stuff to keep the mill running. Of course, when the millwright didn't complete a weld the problem didn't extend pass the mill. But this plant should be in "paper mill" mode.
Yeah, I think they should just keep on doing what they are doing and eventually the core will cool down. After 3 explosions all caught on tape, 2 completely trashed reactors, fire in expended fuel tank..no, two fires. radiation releases. High radiation alarms. Contaminating an aircraft carrier 100 miles off shore. Possible breach in the primary containment. Plant looks like a yard sale. Letting fuel run out of the EDG's. The only thing we are missing is benny hill running around.
I don't like to demean people or try to make them feel smaller but you are on the wrong level of thinking. First of all, thank you for comparing paper mill normal weekend stuff, that's the first point that disqualifies you from this adult discussion. Like many before have described you have no understanding of the level these people are on. Not only technically or situationally, but the whole picture. They have no power, lights, the environment they are working in is certainly extremely hot, but the radiological effects are most certainly lethal at certain points, then you talk about welding when they've had hydrogen explosions? I don't know a welder that would volunteer for that job given any pay rate. Your input isn't educated, aware, or even welcome. You think you have all the solutions, but you cannot begin to comprehend the problems. Take your negativity away from here and come back when you have gained some perspective and experience.
When's the last time you were up for for almost four days straight, probably starved, dehydrated and just all together beat down and you actually worked in an environment comparable like this? Never I dare say. Sure that's an assumption and an error trap, but unless you start spewing more bs I know it's true. The blame game is not welcome in the scenario, and it certainly doesn't help us understand or learn.
These people are heroes. For you to belitte their actions and say you can do better is disgraceful. Sure, they may have made some mistakes. Given the situation there's no way you can say you'd perform better or do different. To do otherwise is ignorant and arrogant. Most of these people understand that their families have either already perished, or that they will in the performance of their jobs. They have no substitutes my friend. They have proven they are willing to give the ultimate sacrifice for their countrymen in the face of sheer uncertainty with the potential of failed or inadequate equipment. What have you done?!?
By the way, letting the fuel run out is completely understandable. They are trying to maintain the water level in 3 reactors with no desgined systems, and maintain the water levels in 6 spent fuel pools with minimaly personnel. You are also completely ignoring the logistical issues a 8.9 magnitude earthwauke with following tsunami equivalent to one experienced every 1000 years brings. Gain some perspective, seriosuly. It's easier to point fingers than it is to understand their mindset.
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Thanks Vegabond, that was +K ...
Also thanks to all of you who have had great insight in the last few days, it has been very informative for me. I already feel more qualified (despite being equally qualified) than Charlie M to operate a BWR ( :o ) . I also had a great proposal for the PR Issue here.
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,12787.msg140157.html#msg140157
My serious question though, is that I received a cell phone alert that Radiation Levels were lowering at the site. Anyone else hear anything like this? I didn't see anything on here or google. ...
Thanks to all of you, except for the mill guy....
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I would expect EDG's to be Helo'd in.
That right there shows that you've never been granted access to the vital areas. EDG's big enough to run any ECCS pumps are too big to be moved by a helicopter.
Or a gas powered forklift.
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If they were given full freedom to effect repairs, the fault lies at the feet of the personal to take timely action to prevent what may be the death nell for new builds in the US. In the US, it looks like you can take the gloves off and execute repairs with on the deck peer checks. If they could not do that in Japan (and I don't know), then the site had their hands tied and the fault lies at the feet of corporate with their procedures. The design held up enough through the quake. It gave the personal 3 days to execute a plan to modify the current cooling system. they failed.
At any rate, its a PR nightmare.
The important thing is the public perception which is in tatters....and justifiably so, I might add. If there is any significant radiation release...
The bottom line is you have to be able to show the public you can maintain the plant integrity in all conditions. Overcome adversity. Not make excuses. Not cry its too tough. Can't be done.
Corporate procedures....Are you kidding me? These are highly technical procedures with the only concern being the public and their health. Who cares about making money, everyone else is my concern. The are OEM level procedures driven at protecting the surrounding environment. You may think, "The huge evil corporation just wants to make money", but what that equates to on this level is the negative impact or public opinion can drive petitions for further plants to be built or even operated.
I have faith that the only thing these operators care about is protecting the public, their actions so far have proven it. These people are not crying or even trying to give up. Rather it's the contrary. They seem to be requesting the help they need and giving it their all in this beyond design basis accident. While not many have said it that's probably how it should be classified. They experienced an earthquake of 8.9 to 9.1 magnitude, which is many orders greater than the 8.2 they were designed for, plus a tsunami equivalent to one occuring every 1000 years. When we design for that level people will cry wolf when comets hit the area close a nuclear power plant. You can't design for everything, but you can be reassured that theirs was very robust.
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I don't like to demean people or try to make them feel smaller but you are on the wrong level of thinking. First of all, thank you for comparing paper mill normal weekend stuff, that's the first point that disqualifies you from this adult discussion.
I'm a site installation manager at Exelon quad city responsible for the turbine installation. I might have an idea on how to execute a project. Maybe even a nuclear one. At a major plant. In a major outage. On complex capital equipment. No, I don't feel demeaned or smaller because of your statement.
Look, this looks like a failure of the personal to adequately address the problem, formulate a plan, and execute a plan to prevent destroying 3 possible 4 reactors and releasing radiation to the environment. That is all I saying. I guess I am a lonely voice here and it doesn't mesh with group think, but this failure to me is errors in personal to execute. The site wants to protect its own, I guess and rush to defend this debacle by blaming the quake/tsunami, and doesn't want to even discuss the possibility that is accident is personal related. Even though a large percentage of the accidents are, indeed, human error.
Its 95% chance its either personal or corporate failure. I hope its corporate. It looks like the equipment held together for a long enough time to provide a safe environment for 2-3 days to allow repairs to be made. They were not made. And it doesn't appear or communicated and what the response was, if any.
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Mr. Muffin, you have a point. Since there is no infrastructure available...(ELECTRICITY, SERVICE AIR, FUEL, ETC.) I suppose a handy man tool box of crescent wrenches, socket wrenches, different screw drivers, direct from the local Auto Zone, may have given them the opportunity to convert those pumps, valves, MCC Centers, Diesel Generators, to Hydro power from the sea...in a timely manner, of course. God Help Excelon on their EPU!! You are still at Excelon?
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I'm a site installation manager at Exelon quad city responsible for the turbine installation. I might have an idea on how to execute a project. Maybe even a nuclear one. At a major plant. In a major outage. On complex capital equipment. No, I don't feel demeaned or smaller because of your statement.
Look, this looks like a failure of the personal to adequately address the problem, formulate a plan, and execute a plan to prevent destroying 3 possible 4 reactors and releasing radiation to the environment. That is all I saying. I guess I am a lonely voice here and it doesn't mesh with group think, but this failure to me is errors in personal to execute. The site wants to protect its own, I guess and rush to defend this debacle by blaming the quake/tsunami, and doesn't want to even discuss the possibility that is accident is personal related. Even though a large percentage of the accidents are, indeed, human error.
Its 95% chance its either personal or corporate failure. I hope its corporate. It looks like the equipment held together for a long enough time to provide a safe environment for 2-3 days to allow repairs to be made. They were not made. And it doesn't appear or communicated and what the response was, if any.
Tell me loffy, what EOP covers 8.9 earthquakes and tsunamis? Hmm.... You're experience is limited to controlled, well maintained areas, not emergency response. I will agree that other things are going on, but you need to account for the situation, not just the black and white on paper.
Now, You have voiced your opinion. We have all heard it, multiple times. No one is going to overtly agree with you, either because they dont, or fear of reprisal. theres no need to continue your push. We understand your position. Now, I was serious, if you really dont have any productive statements to make, or at least questions or condolences stop posting, or, heres an idea... START A THREAD. Get a gold membership and post it there. Big man on campus here can surely spare a dollar a day.
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Some of what you said is true, I respect the attitude to go against the "group think" that is what nuclear power is all about. I would give you some Karma if I could (or knew how) for that statement alone.
But, I believe it premature to assign any blame for where the plant is currently at. Neither you nor I have any in depth knowledge of the plant conditions from the beginning of this until now. To say that they had 2 or 3 days to formulate and execute a plan to repair or build entirely new safety systems for cooling the reactor, another cooling system for the containment, another for the spent fuel pools for all 6 units with degrading and rapidly changing plant conditions seems... unrealistic. Should/could they be doing more? I don't have any idea.
Could you change out a high pressure turbine in three days? Never mind that you first need to address that you are in the dark, in high temperatures, and only have hand powered chainfalls and tools? Nearly impossible given weeks. Surely you must see that?
In any case thank you for your thoughts.
XF
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http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
I just saw that they evacuated the crew and that Tokyo is getting .08mR (if I did my conversion correctly), which is not good (but not bad)....
I haven't found anything to defend the CNBC alert of lowering radiation levels (maybe them trying to recover GE stock), but I have found the evacuation articles.
Just thought I'd update and steer away from mill guy (Excuse me, Mr. Muffin [dowave])
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I'm a site installation manager at Exelon quad city responsible for the turbine installation. I might have an idea on how to execute a project. Maybe even a nuclear one. At a major plant. In a major outage. On complex capital equipment. No, I don't feel demeaned or smaller because of your statement.
Look, this looks like a failure of the personal to adequately address the problem, formulate a plan, and execute a plan to prevent destroying 3 possible 4 reactors and releasing radiation to the environment. That is all I saying. I guess I am a lonely voice here and it doesn't mesh with group think, but this failure to me is errors in personal to execute. The site wants to protect its own, I guess and rush to defend this debacle by blaming the quake/tsunami, and doesn't want to even discuss the possibility that is accident is personal related. Even though a large percentage of the accidents are, indeed, human error.
Its 95% chance its either personal or corporate failure. I hope its corporate. It looks like the equipment held together for a long enough time to provide a safe environment for 2-3 days to allow repairs to be made. They were not made. And it doesn't appear or communicated and what the response was, if any.
What it all comes down to in my opinion is no pointing fingers for now. It'll happen at a point certainly, and the industry will learn and grow. With the limited amount of information and understanding we have now certain assumptions or solutions go out the window. While I realize some of your solutions are good, the situation changes when you deal with the catastrophic earthquake/monstrosity of a tsunami combination. Seawater destroys electrical components and switchgear. Apparently they have both 50 and 60 Hz in that area, which brings in other problems. Personnel wise they are surely stretched thin. The point of my responses is to show that there is nothing to be gained from the blame game without 100% accurate information and comprehension. I'm sure this experience will make us all better in the months and years to come, but in the short term pointing out faults in a vacuum gains nothing.
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http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
I just saw that they evacuated the crew and that Tokyo is getting .08mR (if I did my conversion correctly), which is not good (but not bad)....
I haven't found anything to defend the CNBC alert of lowering radiation levels (maybe them trying to recover GE stock), but I have found the evacuation articles.
Just thought I'd update and steer away from mill guy
Considering the average american gets .5mR per day.... (according to ANS)..... 0.08mR seems highly inconsequential.
and your "lowering rad levels"
"Crews put that fire out, and by Tuesday afternoon, Edano said, radiation readings -- which had reached dangerously high levels at the plant earlier -- had decreased."
is probably to do with that.
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Considering the average american gets .5mR per day.... (according to NRC)..... 0.08mR seems highly inconsequential.
and your "lowering rad levels"
"Crews put that fire out, and by Tuesday afternoon, Edano said, radiation readings -- which had reached dangerously high levels at the plant earlier -- had decreased."
s probably to do with that.
Probably,The media probably took the two words they wanted to hear and ran with it (also CNBC trying to recover GE)....
Good call on that one. Is it really .5mR per day? sounds high (PM me on that one)...
Anyways, good follow up because I still see nothing to support the lowering claim other than that.
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There is at least some, if not a lot, of truth to what Loffy has said. The (strongly suspected) core damage in Unit 2 was due to core uncovery due to letting the ONLY running diesel pump run out of fuel. The second core uncovery was due to inadvertently due to not keeping the RCS vent (I assume SRV) open, causing RCS pressure to increase above the diesel pump shut off head. Because the Unit 2 core got damaged, the radiation levels around the plant got much worse, the control room had to be evacuated, etc. Prior to this damage, it appears the units were relatively accessible (especially, 2, 4, 5, and 6).
It does not appear that fire hoses were prestaged to the SFPs once the extent of the loss of power became known. Had such hoses been run, it would have been relatively simple to get water into those SFPs.
Part of the issue is that detailed information (what is broken, what is flooded, what was washed away) has not been released. I know in our Emergency Response drills, there is a great deal of emphasis given to keeping the news media, INPO, etc updated. This update includes much more detail than what has come out to date.
Yes it would be difficult to transport a diesel that could run an ECCS pump. However, one big enough to run a pump equivalent to a CRD hydraulic pump or a standby liquid control pump is probably possible, as would one or more to run the equipment associated with the normal fuel pool cooling system and its heat removal system (if that system is still intact, which is unknown).
Once the first secondary containment blew out, or hydrogen got detected in the secondary containment, why weren't panels taken off the remaining units to allow crossflow to vent any hydrogen?
Look at this picture from yesterday, from before the Unit 2 core damage occurred. While they may be too small to see, there does not seem to be a huge amount of portable equipment staged near any unit.
http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichi_march14_2011_dg.jpg
The above does definitely NOT mean the people fighting this disaster at the plant are not heros, working in unbelievably difficult situations with severe concerns about their family and friends. It does mean that, based on what little we can find out from far away, there does not seem to to have been a huge mobilzation in day one or two to mitigate the event.
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Anyone know why they are having difficulty in getting water into their spent fuel pool at Unit 4? The core is offloaded, which means it is in the spent fuel pool. This means the fuel pool gates are probably removed which means if they inject water into the Reactor Vessel it will spill over into the Fuel Pool. If, for some strange reason fuel pool gates are installed then filling the reactor vessel should cause level to overflow into the Fuel Pool Skimmer Surge Tanks and then back into the spent fuel pool. I don't think they could be designed that differently from our MARK 1. Maybe they are having flowrate to the vessel issues or maybe they are just that different in design due to the age of the plant.
XF
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Would you be staging equipment outside if there were explosions throwing heavy debris occurring high overhead? How about staying close to watch the fuel level?
I'd put it in the turbine building on a lower level to provide as much of a missile shield as possible.
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Anyone know why they are having difficulty in getting water into their spent fuel pool at Unit 4? The core is offloaded, which means it is in the spent fuel pool. This means the fuel pool gates are probably removed which means if they inject water into the Reactor Vessel it will spill over into the Fuel Pool. If, for some strange reason fuel pool gates are installed then filling the reactor vessel should cause level to overflow into the Fuel Pool Skimmer Surge Tanks and then back into the spent fuel pool. I don't think they could be designed that differently from our MARK 1. Maybe they are having flowrate to the vessel issues or maybe they are just that different in design due to the age of the plant.
XF
It could be due to them losing level and making the area inaccessible. Given the fuel was recently put in the pool I could see level dropping while they were trying to deal with the problem at the other units. A high pressure long distance fire nozzle would do wonders for them in this case, as long as all of the roof were gone to make the aim easier.
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Probably,The media probably took the two words they wanted to hear and ran with it (also CNBC trying to recover GE)....
Good call on that one. Is it really .5mR per day? sounds high (PM me on that one)...
Anyways, good follow up because I still see nothing to support the lowering claim other than that.
I know you were looking for a PM, but here is what I found:
http://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/radiation/around-us/doses-daily-lives.html
620 mrem/year which comes out to 1.7 mrem/day
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I know you were looking for a PM, but here is what I found:
http://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/radiation/around-us/doses-daily-lives.html
620 mrem/year which comes out to 1.7 mrem/day
good catch, I was looking at 2 different sites. O.o 1,7mrem daily. So they are getting a little more then double "normal".
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http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1300273535P.pdf
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I haven't had time to read all posts on this thread (outage time) so sorry if this has already been asked, but does the plant and units in question have a steam driven EFW pump and if so, does anyone know why it is not working? All I hear about is how the diesel power that was knocked out locked up all their alternate cooling.
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I've been using this thread as a better source of information than the media outlets. I am pretty nervous now, really pulling for the operators still at the plant. It feels like I have a strange insatiable urge to go there and help in the aftermath, even if it's nothing but decon and hauling rubble.
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I've been using this thread as a better source of information than the media outlets. I am pretty nervous now, really pulling for the operators still at the plant. It feels like I have a strange insatiable urge to go there and help in the aftermath, even if it's nothing but decon and hauling rubble.
Better bring your own PAPR. Most of the pics of rescuers and people on-scene show them as walking human fission product air filters >:(
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A better look at the destruction done to Unit 3's secondary containment by the 2nd hydrogen explosion:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/16/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1
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Recent still shots of Fukushima Daiichi damage.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366670/Japan-earthquake-tsunami-Radiation-soars-Fukushima-nuclear-plant.html
Can a Mark I containment/plant layout describe the equipment on the ocean side of the turbine building please? Specifically, which tanks are those still standing? I know the layout may be different there than here and you may have to 'guess.'
Thanks,
PJ
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I would guess condensate storage tanks.
Justin
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We all should realize that some organizations will exploit this natural disaster to promote their specific agenda. One of those organizations is Mothers for Peace out of San Luis Obispo, CA. Have no doubt that this organization is monitoring what is said on this thread and if possible, will manipulate your words and use them to promote their misguided ideology.
I hope I am wrong, but I sense that MFP members are secretly glad this event occurred, just so they can say "see, we told you so."
Read what these folks are saying at:
http://www.mothersforpeace.org/
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Sun Dog,
Great find and good advice. As I stated last night, it's important to point out factual inaccuracies when we come across them. To wit, it wasn't the quake that started this accident; safety systems responded as designed. It was the tsunami that crippled this facility. If SLOMFP have an issue with earth quakes, fine let's have honest, informed, intelligent, and respectful debates about seismic qualification and design consideration.
Good work!
PJ
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I believe the largest tanks are Condensate Storage tanks. The smaller 2 visible tanks out closer to the ocean are likely Demineralized Water Storage Tanks, looks like they are shared between 2 units. The tall cylindrical tanks closest to the turbine building are probably nitrogen. Best guess.
XF
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Recent still shots of Fukushima Daiichi damage.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366670/Japan-earthquake-tsunami-Radiation-soars-Fukushima-nuclear-plant.html
Can a Mark I containment/plant layout describe the equipment on the ocean side of the turbine building please? Specifically, which tanks are those still standing? I know the layout may be different there than here and you may have to 'guess.'
Thanks,
PJ
There's some interesting political moves in that article. When the French cannot raise a white flag they attack, but only in the war of words. Guenther Oettinger saying the talk of apocalypse is appropriate rattles me.
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To all who have posted in this thread:
Thank you. When I first heard of problems with the nuclear power plants in Japan my first thought was to come to this site. I knew the people here would do two things: first, they would filter the news coming out to quickly identify that which was most likely to be accurate and useful, and second, they would offer opinions and facts based on their combined expertise. I have not been let down at all. I agree with most here that the operators currently in Japan are heroes of the first order who are living every operator’s worst nightmare. I will continue to check into this site frequently for more information. Thank you again for your service to the industry by helping those of us who want to be informed to stay informed.
V/R
01changeup
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We all should realize that some organizations will exploit this natural disaster to promote their specific agenda. One of those organizations is Mothers for Peace out of San Luis Obispo, CA. Have no doubt that this organization is monitoring what is said on this thread and if possible, will manipulate your words and use them to promote their misguided ideology.
I hope I am wrong, but I sense that MFP members are secretly glad this event occurred, just so they can say "see, we told you so."
Read what these folks are saying at:
http://www.mothersforpeace.org/
Do they have a forum? I feel like trolling ignorants.
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Rise above, CM. You're in the big leagues now.
Justin
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Lil' bit of actual sanity in the news - kinda like a breath of fresh air...
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/03/15/dr-marc-siegel-calm-carry-japans-radiation-leak-dangerous-fear/ (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/03/15/dr-marc-siegel-calm-carry-japans-radiation-leak-dangerous-fear/)
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I'm a site installation manager at Exelon quad city responsible for the turbine installation.
Here ya go, Henry J. Kaiser...grab a meter and make yourself useful! ;)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqQOKjYE1BPqnQ,6BNdyQehdTg~~_12.JPG)
http://cgi.ebay.com/PALLET-73-HDER-G-01-Survey-Meter-Geiger-COMPLETE-SET-/110661281711?pt=BI_Security_Fire_Protection&hash=item19c3ed27af (http://cgi.ebay.com/PALLET-73-HDER-G-01-Survey-Meter-Geiger-COMPLETE-SET-/110661281711?pt=BI_Security_Fire_Protection&hash=item19c3ed27af)
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I wondered when the MSM would pick up on this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110316/ts_nm/us_japan_quake
Mixed Oxide Fuel (MOX) - Fukushima Daiichi Unit 3 is using it. But we all know what ordinary low enriched uranium fuel in the presence of a fast neutron flux breeds. The Pu word strikes fear in the hearts of most. Again it is that which people don't understand that they fear the most.
PJ
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Rise above, CM. You're in the big leagues now.
Justin
I know I know.... That whole "maturity" thing is hard to use sometimes ;)
I truely cant believe fox news is being the voice of reason!!! My whole mind is flipping around. haha
Dave- > haha way to call people out man :D
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I was looking at the latest report today from the JAIF website (http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/), and noticed radiation levels have increased quite a bit. They are saying just over 190 mrem at the plant site boundary (I don't know if that is an average or the highest reading at the time at a specific point on the boundary). And they are also saying 40 R by unit 3, 3 R by unit 2, and 10 R by unit 4. I'm kind of wondering now what kind of dose rate they are getting in the control rooms. Any ideas on that?
I mean, 190 mrem at the plant site boundary...that is pretty bad. I can't imagine what kind of exposure those workers are getting.
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That is significantly better than 2 reports ago.
http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1300240000P.pdf
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Lil' bit of actual sanity in the news - kinda like a breath of fresh air...
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/03/15/dr-marc-siegel-calm-carry-japans-radiation-leak-dangerous-fear/ (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/03/15/dr-marc-siegel-calm-carry-japans-radiation-leak-dangerous-fear/)
From the article: Infection and injury will sicken and kill far more in post-earthquake post-tsunami Japan than radiation ever will.
The medias' understanding of nuclear power is still closely associated with nuclear weapons so we've got to help educate the public. Folks like the Mothers for Peace are certainly entitled to their opinion, hopefully one made after evaluation of the facts. The crisis with the nuclear plants is serious, but the greatest risk is the millions without food, water, sanitation and medical care.
Thanks to the folks helping to clarify the situation.
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I found this article and was hoping for a reaction from some of the civilians out there (meaning non-active duty folks).
http://theweek.com/article/index/213180/japans-crisis-the-world-rethinks-nuclear-power
And just to add some visual clarity to what we are all feeling:
http://theweek.com/article/slideshow/213178
V/R
01changeup
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I wondered when the MSM would pick up on this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110316/ts_nm/us_japan_quake
Mixed Oxide Fuel (MOX) - Fukushima Daiichi Unit 3 is using it. But we all know what ordinary low enriched uranium fuel in the presence of a fast neutron flux breeds. The Pu word strikes fear in the hearts of most. Again it is that which people don't understand that they fear the most.
PJ
I figured that it was coming. But I also assumed that this thread is being watched by outsiders so I didn't make a nudge in that direction.
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Anyone know why they are having difficulty in getting water into their spent fuel pool at Unit 4? The core is offloaded, which means it is in the spent fuel pool. This means the fuel pool gates are probably removed which means if they inject water into the Reactor Vessel it will spill over into the Fuel Pool. If, for some strange reason fuel pool gates are installed then filling the reactor vessel should cause level to overflow into the Fuel Pool Skimmer Surge Tanks and then back into the spent fuel pool. I don't think they could be designed that differently from our MARK 1. Maybe they are having flowrate to the vessel issues or maybe they are just that different in design due to the age of the plant.
XF
Latest reports are that the police dept is bringing in water canons (normally used for riot control) to deluge the U4 SFP. Given some of the photos from the plant site, it sounds like (to me at least) there simply isn't much in the way of intact piping left that they are able to find to move water around anywhere.
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Anyone know the status of power? I heard they had some diesels on site but could not restore power because the switchgear had salt water contamination. I have a 1,000,000 sq-ft warehouse full of switchgear and am wondering if and how I can assist.
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I'm a site installation manager at Exelon quad city responsible for the turbine installation. I might have an idea on how to execute a project. Maybe even a nuclear one. At a major plant. In a major outage. On complex capital equipment. No, I don't feel demeaned or smaller because of your statement.
Look, this looks like a failure of the personal to adequately address the problem, formulate a plan, and execute a plan to prevent destroying 3 possible 4 reactors and releasing radiation to the environment. That is all I saying. I guess I am a lonely voice here and it doesn't mesh with group think, but this failure to me is errors in personal to execute. The site wants to protect its own, I guess and rush to defend this debacle by blaming the quake/tsunami, and doesn't want to even discuss the possibility that is accident is personal related. Even though a large percentage of the accidents are, indeed, human error.
Its 95% chance its either personal or corporate failure. I hope its corporate. It looks like the equipment held together for a long enough time to provide a safe environment for 2-3 days to allow repairs to be made. They were not made. And it doesn't appear or communicated and what the response was, if any.
I know I am late to the debate but.........just because you are a project manager does not mean your not an IDIOT. You precious little paper mill would not have been standing much less any people alive to do anything about it. If your going to comment/debate come with a valid knowledge level or sit on the sidelines and listen and learn. I am still amazed at people who spend time in a power plant think they have a clue how things work and how they should work. Anyone with a reasonable amount of training and knowledge are wise enough to know that until you are in the shoes of the people facing the problem you do not have enough information to be able to provide valid input to the situation. Oh by the way I hope you feel demeaned enough to shut up and listen to people that have a clue........sorry....I will get off of my soap box now.
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I found this article and was hoping for a reaction from some of the civilians out there (meaning non-active duty folks).
http://theweek.com/article/index/213180/japans-crisis-the-world-rethinks-nuclear-power
From the article
The U.S. gets about 20 percent of its electricity from nuclear power, but no new plants have been completed since the 1979 Three Mile Island disaster.
Uh, no.
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"Anyone know the status of power? I heard they had some diesels on site but could not restore power because the switchgear had salt water contamination."
I had heard this too. 2 days ago DG was flown in but didn't work for some reason, plugs were wrong or didn't work correctly (switchgear). Someone on here a few posts ago said they couldn't fly in DGs but that is certainly not true. I know it is in contingency plans for some US reactors. I know there are helicoptors capable of flying in loads larger than a good sized DG.
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I hope I am wrong, but I sense that MFP members are secretly glad this event occurred, just so they can say "see, we told you so."
Read what these folks are saying at:
http://www.mothersforpeace.org/
Having lived in the San Luis Obispo area, I got more than my fill of MFP.
When you're done checking out their page, you may want to see this guy's list of 11 Reasons to Oppose Nuclear Power. Surely, his 6 (yes, 6) blog followers agree:
http://lowcarbonkid.blogspot.com/2011/03/11-reasons-to-oppose-nuclear-power.html
And- here's a great article that showed up on CNN's Opinion page about an hour or so ago- Why Nuclear Power is Necessary:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/03/16/sjoden.nuclear.japan/index.html?hpt=C1
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http://www.olive-drab.com/images/id_ch54_tarhe_tank_700.jpg (http://www.olive-drab.com/images/id_ch54_tarhe_tank_700.jpg)
(http://www.olive-drab.com/images/id_ch54_tarhe_tank_700.jpg)
I'm guessing a DG would be no problem.
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Recent still shots of Fukushima Daiichi damage.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366670/Japan-earthquake-tsunami-Radiation-soars-Fukushima-nuclear-plant.html
This picture is obviously newer than the areal photos. In the areal photos the top of the Unit 4 RB don't look damaged. Here you can clearly see the not only is the roof damaged but also the side of the building is punctured.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/16/article-1366670-0B32096D00000578-100_964x703.jpg)
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Here is another article that can't seem to make up it's mind. It goes back and forth from well informed and calming to ill informed and inflammatory. Thoughts?
http://theweek.com/article/index/213152/japans-nuclear-meltdown-is-it-another-chernobyl
V/R
01changeup
P.S. I keep posting these because I know I will get good feedback on what I post. I am more informed than the average joe, but less informed than most people on this site, so this is where I go to vet my information.
V/R
01changeup
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I have done projects were we put 3000kVA transformers on rooftops with a helo before, those are not light.
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"Anyone know the status of power? I heard they had some diesels on site but could not restore power because the switchgear had salt water contamination."
I had heard this too. 2 days ago DG was flown in but didn't work for some reason, plugs were wrong or didn't work correctly (switchgear). Someone on here a few posts ago said they couldn't fly in DGs but that is certainly not true. I know it is in contingency plans for some US reactors. I know there are helicoptors capable of flying in loads larger than a good sized DG.
That was me saying that you couldn't quickly put in an EDG big enough to run the main ECCS equipment.
No doubt one one big enough to get the vital DC buses, ventilation, and lighting back online would be a major help.
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http://www.olive-drab.com/images/id_ch54_tarhe_tank_700.jpg (http://www.olive-drab.com/images/id_ch54_tarhe_tank_700.jpg)
(http://www.olive-drab.com/images/id_ch54_tarhe_tank_700.jpg)
I'm guessing a DG would be no problem.
Only if you already own a CH-54 or Mi-26. No loaners available, sorry...
U.S. forces kept 50 miles away from Japan nuke plant
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – U.S. forces in Japan are not allowed within 50 miles of Japan's crippled nuclear power plant, the Pentagon on Wednesday, explaining measures meant to keep troops safe during a relief operation.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110316/us_nm/us_japan_quake_usa_military_1 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110316/us_nm/us_japan_quake_usa_military_1)
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A 1000KW diesel is about 40000 pounds give or take. That is under the capacity of some of the largest copters
Mil V-12 can get up about 60000+ pounds, it is russian.
skycrane can do about 20000 pounds.
don't know what Japan has available....maybe Russia will let them borrow one.
wonder what size DG they are trying to get out there. I bet they would love to have 1000KW to play with.
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Recently my company refurbished approximately 75 portable 5kV generator sets that are used for general emergency and conflict situations and deployed and maintained by the Army’s 249 Engineering Battalion. Other users include FEMA and state governments.
Each unit is specially designed to be easily transported by C-17 military aircraft and all members of the 249th are fully trained on their operation and service.
(I have photos but can't figure out how to post them)
Wonder why these units are not deployed there?
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Any of my fellow former sailors remember the P250?
Damage control gasoline operated 250 GPM pump to prevent flooding in compartments. Why not connect multiple fire hoses together, bring in a crane to place the discharge in/over Unit 4 fuel pool, and take suction from the seawater input bay.
It seems to me the elevated radiation levels are in part due to the spent fuel in the pool being uncovered. Not only will that raise temperature, oxidize zicalloy, generate hydrogen, but it removes shielding. Flying directly over the top of it in a chopper will expose all on board to radiation. Reaching in over the top from the side would use the remaining portions of the building as shielding.
I'm not pointing fingers, just asking the question in good faith. If the USS Ronald Reagan is within a few hundred miles, they'll have P250 (or whatever replaced them) and fire hoses. The hard part is a crane capable of reaching in over the building. Once on site it can be done, it's getting the crane on site that is the problem. Who knows what the conditions of the roads are and where the closest crane is in Japan.
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A 1000KW diesel is about 40000 pounds give or take. That is under the capacity of some of the largest copters
Mil V-12 can get up about 60000+ pounds, it is russian.
skycrane can do about 20000 pounds.
don't know what Japan has available....maybe Russia will let them borrow one.
wonder what size DG they are trying to get out there. I bet they would love to have 1000KW to play with.
I can not speak for all nuclear plant around world, but for the ones that I have first hand knowledge of the D/Gs are in the 5000 - 7000 kw range and i suspect are in excess of 100,000 pounds.
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From the NEI website
http://resources.nei.org/documents/japan/Used_Fuel_Pools_Key_Facts_March_16_Update.pdf
UPDATE AS OF 10:00 A.M. EDT, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 16:
News reports that high radiation levels led to the evacuation of all workers from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station are not accurate. Workers were evacuated for about an hour but returned to the site to continue efforts to restore safe conditions at the plant.
Restoration of electrical power to the site was under way at the Daiichi plant as of 6:00 a.m. EDT Wednesday. A temporary cable was being connected between an off-site power line and Daiichi reactor 3. Off-site power has not been available at the site since the earthquake on March 11.
Reactors 1, 2 and 3 at the plant are being cooled with seawater. There is some level of uranium fuel damage at all three units, and containment structure damage is suspected at reactor 2.
Before the earthquake, reactor 4 had been in refueling and was completely defueled. Attempts to provide cooling water to the used fuel pool at reactor 4 by helicopter were not successful. Preparations are being made to inject water into the fuel storage pool using a high-capacity spray pump. There have been two fires inside the reactor containment building at reactor 4, but they have been extinguished. Although the reactor containment building at Unit 4 was damaged, the primary containment vessel remains intact.
At the Fukushima Daini site, all four reactors are safely shut down and cooling functions are being maintained.
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I can not speak for all nuclear plant around world, but for the ones that I have first hand knowledge of the D/Gs are in the 5000 - 7000 kw range and i suspect are in excess of 100,000 pounds.
Do a 5 to 7 times that number and you're in the ballpark.
A very common arrangement is a pair of EMD 20V645 engines with a generator in the middle. That combo weighs in at 650,000 lbs.
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I'm thinking 1000 KW is the best they can hope for flown in, probly less. By land, who knows? Probably much more.
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Marssim,
+1
How about a barge?
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I mean WHEN they can get something there by land. ;) Gotta be so specific around here! Nice pics though.
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I checked the active ships list, we have no LST active. A few LSD, but we'd have to borrow one back in order to lend it to the Japanese.
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Those pictures are just sad :( Its hard to paint an accurate mental image when we dont see it.
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http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/news/2011/11-050.pdf
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almost zero looting, orderly evacuations, patient cooperation with civil defense, chipping in to help their countrymen,....
What's sad is you would never see that here. Kind of makes you wonder a bit...
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Having lived in the San Luis Obispo area, I got more than my fill of MFP.
When you're done checking out their page, you may want to see this guy's list of 11 Reasons to Oppose Nuclear Power. Surely, his 6 (yes, 6) blog followers agree:
http://lowcarbonkid.blogspot.com/2011/03/11-reasons-to-oppose-nuclear-power.html
And- here's a great article that showed up on CNN's Opinion page about an hour or so ago- Why Nuclear Power is Necessary:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/03/16/sjoden.nuclear.japan/index.html?hpt=C1
Holy cow.... so many innacuracies in that article. Apparently it takes 25 tons of uranium to operate a plant... thats one VERY expensive plant haha.
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Senate panel speaking with NRC chairman Jaczko on C-Span3 atm...
Barbara Boxer needs a lot of help being educated about nuclear power.
She even asked how many plants are on seismic zones... as that "information was not available".
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Where+are+the+US+nuclear+power+plants+on+seismic+zones%3F
Second link, Senator.
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What's sad is you would never see that here. Kind of makes you wonder a bit...
Yeah, different culture over there. I heard supermarkets with canned foods and water were being unscathed by looters. People were waiting in line patiently for the government to help them out. THAT would be the real shame of the situation if it were riotous.
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Holy cow.... so many innacuracies in that article. Apparently it takes 25 tons of uranium to operate a plant... thats one VERY expensive plant haha.
25 tons!? :o
I don't think our license allows us to have even a tenth of that on site, and I work for a uranium enrichment company...
Every time I think these news reports have hit rock bottom in factuality, they prove me wrong, mere minutes later.
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Latest reports right now are saying the fuel pool at unit 4 is empty. Can anyone confirm this? I can't even begin to trust the news anymore on this subject (and am now questioning everything the news reports, regardless of subject matter).
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The latest JAIF report says it is just low but that was hours ago. If they were considering a water cannon and helicopters, sadly I assumed it was only a matter of time before it boiled dry...
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Holy cow.... so many innacuracies in that article. Apparently it takes 25 tons of uranium to operate a plant... thats one VERY expensive plant haha.
Our typical cores contain 94 metric tons of UO2 (3400 MWt class plant). Given that most of the weight is in the U part of UO2, 25 tons sounds low.
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Latest reports right now are saying the fuel pool at unit 4 is empty. Can anyone confirm this? I can't even begin to trust the news anymore on this subject (and am now questioning everything the news reports, regardless of subject matter).
The Japanese power company (TEPCO) is reluctant to tell the truth. Big business rules that country more than it does ours. Our guys are inspecting the area in detail for the first time and we are certainly painting a graver picture than they have been. The NRC has even gone as far as saying that the Unit 4 SFP is dry. TEPCO says this is Bulls&^%$#t. The words "extremely high radiation" are being tossed around like radioactive particles. The NBC Nightly News staff got to see their shoes getting deconned tonight. Unit 4 is the worst problem but the other SFP's are rumored to have water leaking as a result of the explosions. Our people aren't allowed within 50 miles. Where are the Blues Brothers when you need them?
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Excellent comment. It's not chernobyl but it's not 3 mile island in more ways than just the accident level. Not as secretive as the russians but not telling enough.
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Bear with me with me a few minutes while attempting to explain what is going on now in Japan. This is for any people reading the thread NOT familiar with the industry jargon.
THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL – based again on information that is available to me. I don’t know everything and I certainly don’t know what is going on at those plants right now.
There are two sites that were impacted, Fukushima I and Fukushima II (DAIICHI and DAINI respectively)
Fukushima II has four units and they have offsite power available, and are in cold shutdown – this means to me for all practical purposes of this discussion they are completely fine. And reports agree with this assessment – their problems are over.
Fukushima I has 6 units, 4 together in one spot and 2 others about a half a mile a way (estimate from the pictures)
Units 5 and 6 (the two a half a mile a way) apparently have at least one Emergency Diesel Generator that they are somehow sharing between them, they were shutdown at the time of the natural disaster and they seem to be fairly stable. Their priorities right now are establishing and maintaining spent fuel pool cooling and possible other decay heat removal equipment. Given that it has been several days and the situation has not degraded all will probably be well at these units. They are not out of the woods but it seems they have fared far, far better than their counterparts.
Unit 1 through 4 are of concern now.
Unit 1 – They are injecting seawater to both the Reactor and the vessel that sounds the reactor and everything there that is necessary to keep the situation from getting worse is in place. Their Spent Fuel Pool is probably being filled or maintained with an outside water source by now and so they seem to be stable in all serious respects… that is, the situation probably will not degrade further.
Unit 2 – They are injecting water into the vessel, apparently there are issues and they are having some difficulty. It appears that the Reactor vessel itself is still intact but leaking. However, containment (composed of two separate pieces the Torus and Drywell) is not completely intact. The Torus has a hole in it, how big is hard to say. As long as the drywell stays intact – which seems much more likely now that the torus is vented to the building - their issues can be kept in check. The Torus is located in the deepest part of the reactor building surrounded by concrete and steel. It is located in a watertight room and the building itself is watertight so, they would be able to flood the building (no small task but do-able) if leakage from the Torus was causing them an issue. The spent fuel pool is not yet causing them a problem, they are taking measures to add water as necessary, there was likely not a high heat load in this pool since they had not recently shutdown to change the fuel out. And it does not appear too badly damaged from the explosions, based on lack of steam/smoke coming from unit 2.
Next post for units 3 and 4.
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"We continue to closely monitor the events in Japan at the Fukushima Daiichi plant. The plant, which houses six reactors, was damaged in a magnitude 9.0 earthquake and subsequent tsunami on March 11.
The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has reported that a partial collapse of the Daiichi Unit 4 Spent Fuel Pool (SFP) has occurred due to failure of the structural material surrounding the pool. While it is unclear the exact extent of the damage, it appears that the SFP is not maintaining water.
The Nuclear Energy Institute, in coordination with the industry’s Chief Nuclear Officers, is generating a list of available portable emergency equipment that can be sent to Daiichi to aid Tokyo Electric Power Co. in addressing this recent development.
Daiichi Units 1, 2 and 3 are beginning to stabilize. Current core temperatures are less then 200 degrees Fahrenheit in all three units. Units 1 and 3 primary containments remains intact, though the Unit 2 primary containment appears to have been breached.
The NRC has deployed a team of 11 experts to aid in the response to the events at Daiichi."
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The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has reported that a partial collapse of the Daiichi Unit 4 Spent Fuel Pool (SFP) has occurred due to failure of the structural material surrounding the pool. While it is unclear the exact extent of the damage, it appears that the SFP is not maintaining water.
In all seriousness. They're going to need an ass-ton of meter-swingers. What a fricking mess that's gotta be.
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I’ll make the statement again before I begin.
THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL – based again on information that is available to me. I don’t know everything and I certainly don’t know what is going on at those plants right now.
Unit 3- The Reactor and Containment are intact. All fuel remains safely inside these structures and barring any further catastrophe it will remain safely bottled up and all will be well with the reactor. Their Spent Fuel Pool is of concern, it looks like an awful lot of debris is in the pool, steam rising from the SFP area indicates it is heating up, likely due to boil off. This is an acceptable condition when you take the gravity of the situation into account. Water can be added to the pool to maintain level until a more permanent temporary fix can be engineered. Radioactive gases are escaping from the pool with the steam, this is unavoidable to prevent unit 3 SFP from turning into unit 4 SFP. If water can continue to be added then the situation can be controlled, not contained but controlled. This goes into the Extreme Damage Mitigation that I posted about previously.
Unit 4 – The reactor is empty of fuel, there is no tremendous hazard from this draining completely dry when compared to the rest of the issues they are having right now. This is NOT happening as far as we know. The reactor has water in it and the condition inside has not changed from normal refuel status. The grave conditions of the spent fuel pool are the #1 issue affecting any of these units right now. They are attempting to add water with fire hoses, thinking about helicopters, and are probably working very hard on lining up a core spray or other method of adding water to the Reactor which would then spill over into the Spent Fuel Pool. If, as has been posted, the Spent fuel pool is no longer completely intact these methods will minimize further damage and keep airborne radioactivity down somewhat.
It is interesting to me that the plants that seemed to be in the most trouble early on are “apparently” the most stable now, and the vice is true for the other two. I am not using the word “interesting” in a flippant manner, I am trying to learn here too. For knowledge I will never have to use, God willing.
XF
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I am with you XF, that has been my assessment when asked by non-industry friends and family. Like you, I try to choose my words carefully and always remind them that is it my best educated guess based on the updates available to us.
Justin
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From NISA
http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110317-1.pdf
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I am with you XF, that has been my assessment when asked by non-industry friends and family. Like you, I try to choose my words carefully and always remind them that is it my best educated guess based on the updates available to us.
Justin
[salute] [salute] [salute]
Agreed! I am getting many e-mails asking for professional and personal opinion and use the same reminder. I've directed many to this site and XF's posts in particular.
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Unit 3- The Reactor and Containment are intact.
I would have doubts about the Unit 3 containment. That secondary containment explosion was violent. The primary containment is very poor at handling external pressure shock, and unfortunately the vacuum breakers are all the way down in the basement. It doesn't make sense to me that its SFP would be steaming so much more quickly and in such greater magnitude than the other 2 running units, and makes me wonder if the steaming is coming from primary containment.
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I would have doubts about the Unit 3 containment. That secondary containment explosion was violent. The primary containment is very poor at handling external pressure shock, and unfortunately the vacuum breakers are all the way down in the basement. It doesn't make sense to me that its SFP would be steaming so much more quickly and in such greater magnitude than the other 2 running units, and makes me wonder if the steaming is coming from primary containment.
Good point, I guess I was basing this off of the pressure inside of containment which I believe is around 35 psig. Assuming that in NISA update CV = containment vessel. But who can say, even the JAIF says containment damage suspected.
EDIT: As far as the steaming goes, as you said the explosion was much more violent, possibly lower than normal level in the pool due to damage. Keep it covered, that is all you have at the moment.
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Has anyone seen an estimate of what the acceleration the Fukushima Daiichi site experienced was versus what its Design Basis Earthquake is? We hear a lot about the 9.0 magnitude, but of course that was at the epicenter offshore.
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I've been a gold member with this site for almost a year now. I've never been happier or more grateful for this site prior to the incident in Japan. We'll never know how many ordinary people have been educated in nuclear power theory and the events ongoing with the Japan's plants. Having no operations experience, I've not chimed in earlier. I usually log on for entertainment but really wanted to express my appreciation to the experienced operations and engineering members for their time and energy in educating the rest of us!! +K +K +K +K Thanks to all of you!!
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Our typical cores contain 94 metric tons of UO2 (3400 MWt class plant). Given that most of the weight is in the U part of UO2, 25 tons sounds low.
Im sorry. I was thinking about our refueling outage and how much we replaced vs the actual amount in the core. O.o
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I had heard that unit 4 had been down for 151 days at the time of the earthquake. Anyone have some idea what that means thermally? Is it still hot enough to melt cladding if it is only cooled by air?
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From the NEI website
Fact Sheet
Used Nuclear Fuel Storage at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant
(Last updated 3/15/11)
Key Facts
Used nuclear fuel at the Fukushima Daiichi plant is stored in seven pools (one at each of the six reactors, plus a shared pool) and in a dry container storage facility (containing nine casks).
Sixty percent of the used fuel on site is stored in the shared pool, in a building separated from the reactor buildings; 34 percent of the used fuel is distributed between the six reactor fuel storage pools, and the remaining six percent is stored in the nine dry storage containers. There are no safety concerns regarding the used fuel in dry storage at Fukushima Daiichi.
Used fuel pools are robust concrete and steel structures designed to protect the fuel from even the most severe events. Pools are designed with systems to maintain the temperature and water levels sufficient to provide cooling and radiation shielding.
The water level in a used fuel pool typically is 16 feet or more above the top of the fuel assemblies.
The used fuel pools at the Fukushima Daiichi reactors are located at the top of the reactor buildings for ease of handling during refueling operations.
The used fuel pools are designed so that the water in the pool cannot drain down as a result of damage to the piping or cooling systems. The pools do not have drains in the sides or the floor of the pool structure. The only way to rapidly drain down the pool is if there is structural damage to the walls or the floor.
What Could Happen During an Accident?
The systems that cool and maintain water levels in the pools are designed to withstand severe events. If these systems are unable to function, the heat generated by the used fuel would result in a slow increase in the temperature of the spent fuel pool water. The operating temperature of the pools is typically around 40 degrees C or 100 degrees F (the boiling point for water is 100 C or 212 F). This slow increase in temperature would result in an increased evaporation rate. Rapid evaporation of the water will not occur.
Exact evaporation rates would depend on the amount of used fuel in the pool and how long it has cooled. The rate at which the pool water level would decrease (due to evaporation or mild boiling) in the absence of cooling system function would not be expected to lower water levels by more than a few percent per day. Given that there is approximately 16 feet or more of water above the used fuel assemblies, operators would have ample time (days to weeks) to find another way to add water to the pools before the fuel would become exposed. For example, water could easily be added using a fire hose.
2
If the water level decreases below the top of the fuel assembly, oxidation of the zirconium cladding could occur. This oxidation could result in some hydrogen generation. However, only the fuel assemblies with the least cooling time (on the order of weeks after discharge from the reactor) would be susceptible to this oxidation. The temperature of the fuel assemblies decreases exponentially with cooling time. The rate of hydrogen generation depends on the temperature of the fuel assembly, with hotter temperatures leading to higher gas generation rates. However, the temperature of the cladding must rise to approximately 1,000 C before significant hydrogen generation rate occurs. This is extremely unlikely to occur after as little as 120 days (16 weeks) of cooling. As a reference, the melting point of zirconium is approximately 1,800 degrees C.
Even if the water level in the pools was to decrease sufficiently so that the fuel were exposed to air, the same level of overheating that can occur in a reactor accident would not occur in the used fuel pool because the used fuel assemblies in the pool are cooler than in the reactor. It is highly unlikely that used fuel temperatures could reach the point where melting could occur, although some damage to the cladding cannot be ruled out. The likelihood of cladding damage, as with hydrogen generation, decreases substantially with temperature and cooling time.
There has been some speculation that, if the used fuel pool were completely drained, the zirconium cladding might ignite and a “zirconium fire” might occur. Studies performed by the Department of Energy indicate that is virtually impossible to ignite zirconium tubing.
At the surface of the used fuel pool, the gamma dose rate from radiation emanating off the used fuel assemblies is typically less than 2 millirem per hour. If the water level decreases, gamma radiation levels would increase substantially. This increase would be noticed at the radiation monitors near the reactor buildings.
I would suspect that there is some structual damage to the spent fuel pools. I don't believe they have caught on fire at this point. However, the only explanation of the rumored excessive levels is that the spent fuel is somehow, partially exposed.
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I've been contacted by the USA Today, and the BBC... they want to talk to Nuclear workers. If anyone wants to talk to them, email me. I'll give you their info.
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I've been contacted by the USA Today, and the BBC... they want to talk to Nuclear workers. If anyone wants to talk to them, email me. I'll give you their info.
Those of you that choose to do this PLEASE be careful. My company fired an employee yesterday due to making commits on the radio. Most company's have strict policy's regarding this type of behavior.
Just saying .. Be careful. Or turn them over to your Public Relations / Media Department.
Mac
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I would recommend only those not currently employed (e.g. waiting on outage season to start) volunteer for an interview.
Oh, and BZ! ;D
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my only experience with exposed spent fuel - :-X
a single, partial fuel pin (~ 70% of it) from a multi-cycle old bundle (one rod from a bundle) used in the outer position in the core at ~ 37 feet (top of cavity to bottom of transfer canal) is about 1R/hr.
I imagine that a pool full of spent fuel, slowly uncovered due to evaporation, would hit the hard to measure level pretty hard.... :o
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Does anybody know if the spent fuel pool (SFP) level problems are related to structural damage or simply accelerated evaporation rate due to the loss of SFP cooling?
http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1300350525P.pdf
!!!!!!!!SPECULATION ALERT!!!!!!!
For the first day or two, the spent fuel problem seemed not to be an issue, then suddenly it became the most significant problem. That leads me to believe that this wasn't merely evaporation, but COULD (and i emphasize COULD) have been damage as a result of the adjacent unit hydrogen explosion and the reported fires in the unit 4 SFP vicinity.
If there is structural damage to the SFP AND it is below the top of the fuel, they will need a makeup system that is of greater capacity than the leak rate. Additionally, they will have to manage the leakage. Obviously the first priority is to get the fuel covered and these other considerations are secondary, but they should be on the minds of the engineering team that is supporting the Fukushima Fifty.
!!!!!!!!END SPECULATION ALERT!!!!!!!
I look forward to reading your thoughts and insights and I continue to pray that the sustained heroic actions of all those on site are successful. In the end, logic, reason, and science will prevail ... but we could use some divine intervention here as well.
PJ
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Does anybody know if the spent fuel pool (SFP) level problems are related to structural damage or simply accelerated evaporation rate due to the loss of SFP cooling?
http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1300350525P.pdf
!!!!!!!!SPECULATION ALERT!!!!!!!
For the first day or two, the spent fuel problem seemed not to be an issue, then suddenly it became the most significant problem. That leads me to believe that this wasn't merely evaporation, but COULD (and i emphasize COULD) have been damage as a result of the adjacent unit hydrogen explosion and the reported fires in the unit 4 SFP vicinity.
If there is structural damage to the SFP AND it is below the top of the fuel, they will need a makeup system that is of greater capacity than the leak rate. Additionally, they will have to manage the leakage. Obviously the first priority is to get the fuel covered and these other considerations are secondary, but they should be on the minds of the engineering team that is supporting the Fukushima Fifty.
!!!!!!!!END SPECULATION ALERT!!!!!!!
I look forward to reading your thoughts and insights and I continue to pray that the sustained heroic actions of all those on site are successful. In the end, logic, reason, and science will prevail ... but we could use some divine intervention here as well.
PJ
It would appear that it would have to be due to sturctural damage / draining, if low pool levels indeed exist for Unit 4 (the US NRC believes it so). Day-to-day visuals have never shown any boiling from the area around the refuel floor.
XF said it earlier, the success path may very well be injecting via the reactor cavity and spilling over into the pool. CRD is probably the easiest to align if 200 gpm outpaces any leak. Core Spray and RHR would be larger-capacity options, with CS probably already aligned to an external source. All pumps are in the basement of the RB, where dose would be lowest, except for the injection valves, whose manual operation could result in dose complications if the pool is in fact drained.
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Dose rates will be high at the fuel pool edge making access difficult, but not impossible. Fuel bundles at some point decay to a level of thermal generation where they are stored dry without any cooling, these bundles are not to that point obviously but are not fresh out of the core so some decay has occurred. Most of the bundles in the pool are likely from previous fuel cycles and are significantly more decayed than the ones from the last cycle which I assume is 1/4 to 1/3 of the total number of bundles in the core (operators comment?).
There was talk today about dropping water into the spent fuel pool by helicopter. I heard conflicting reports on whether or not the spent fuel bundles were covered or not. As long as the fuel bundles contain the contaminates the dose rates even as high as they have become would be a site problem primarily. If the bundles are dry and water is dropped on them I would think that there is a potential to damage whatever integrity is left in the bundles. The physical shock from the drop would be damaging, water is not light and the height would provide a lot of force. Thermal shock to already stressed tube in the bundle would further weaken it. And finally the chemical reactions that would also further weaken the tubes. Though decisions!!!
These are my observations and speculations, who knows what the real story is until this is over. Communication to the public always seems to suffer a bit during any major disaster world wide, but then the experts (those on site) hopefully are busy with the problem not public relations leaving us to speculate.
These operators, technicians, and engineers have an awful lot on them. Under the conditions they are working I can't help but to admire those who volunteered to stay.
[salute] [salute] [salute] [salute] [salute]
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If the pool is down to the top of the fuel, let alone below the top of the fuel, the dose rate in the air directly over the pool would be phenomenal. No doubt the helicopters used for water dipping would have dosimetry on board. Even at 1000 feet up they'd know for sure if the pool is close to drying out.
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I'm trying to remember where I saw the information on the fuel cycles for each unit. I'd like to point to a link rather than using my fuzzy memory. IIRC, unit 1 was at 11 months since refuel and unit 4 was down some 150 days due to inspection work. I think units 2 and 3 were at the same as unit one but I'm less sure of that.
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Speculations/Questions about Unit 4:
If the fuel can't be cooled and continues to burn, will it eventually melt/disentigrate the bottom of the fuel pool and fall into the upper levels of the Rx Building?
Should/could a solid material (like concrete or sand mixed with poisons) be poured into the fuel pool if the fuel pool integrity can't be maintained enough to feed and bleed water? Could this possibly plug some holes long enough to keep water in long enough to cool the fuel?
Also, I'm thinking access to the edge of the Pool right now would most likely be deadly in less than an hour due to radiation exposure, let alone fire/particles/building integrity; do others agree?
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I have sent the following email to the local media outlets here in Houston, hopefully it will get someones attention and they will sue this site to gain a better understanding of what is going on over there. Thanks to all of you guys in the know for keeping us abreast of what is really going on (educated guesses anyways).
"Hello, I wanted to contact you to give some advice and hopefully some useful information regarding the Nuclear “Crisis” in Japan. I use that term “Crisis” loosely as should you due to the lack of true information available at this time. Just some quick background on me to help you understand the validity of information I am passing along. I worked in the Navy for 9 years as a Nuclear Machinist Mate. What that means is this, I worked as a primary and secondary plant operator in our Nuclear power plant aboard different submarines. I have a few years of experience with nuclear power and as such have a better understanding of what the actual situation means for the rest of us. With all of that I said here comes the advice, most of the media outlets, yours included, are giving out information that is not necessarily false, but provides a false sense of “impending” doom for the residents of this country, specifically for those of us near operating nuclear reactor plants. There are not enough details to fully diagnose the situation, and as such a recommendation would be not to do so. However, if you must, I would STRONGLY recommend using this site as a reference, and possibly putting it out for the public use to gain a better understanding of what is actually taking place and what the true outcomes are and may be. http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,26998.420.html This particular link is an ongoing discussion about the Japanese Nuclear disaster and the “Educated Guesses” of what is going on over there. I say this most likely on the behalf of many of my Nuclear brethren, please get educated about nuclear power and its safety. "
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704662604576202424107906298.html?mod=WSJ_World_MIDDLENews
Quote from Japanese Govt regarding SFP at Unit 4:
"Government officials say they can still see water in a pool containing spent fule rods in the No. 4 reactor."
I didn't see a timestamp on this quote nor who stated this. The interactive graphic at WSJ does narrow it down to March 'Today' (i.e., March 17, 2011).
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Video from helicopter:
This is very shaky, but if paused in places gives some of the 'best' views of the Fukushima Daiichi site yet.
PJ
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I don't know if I would say that his approach is needed at this point though. The "Cherynoble" approach as he calls it will make that whole area and the surrounding one off limits for many, many generations, and then you have to "hope" you aren't having a melt through of containment into the water table. I say that all based on what we little info we have, maybe it is worse than I believe at this point, and now is the time to "entomb" these units before we cannot without killing the pilots.
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Info on helicopter used in this disaster.
CH-47J is a medium-transport helicopter for the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force (JGSDF), and the Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF).
28,000 lb (12,700 kg) cargo
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Here is another update on the situation and exposure rates:
http://nuclearstreet.com/nuclear_power_industry_news/b/nuclear_power_news/archive/2011/03/17/focus-at-fukushima-daiichi-now-on-spent-fuel-tanks-as-helicopters-and-water-cannons-work-to-quench-unit-3-_2800_with-reactor-status-list_2900_031704.aspx
Now I'm not that familiar with Sv and mSv, but rates of 87.7 mSv at 300 ft definitely show a large problem.
1 Sv = 100 rem
1 mSv = 100 mR (mrem)
I believe is the correct conversions.
Great posting by everyone so far. Keep the information coming!
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Finally, the media found an expert with a clue...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42130567#42130567
Is this the Michio Kaku video linked on the MSNBC front page (I can't view it due to the firewall here)?
I've always liked Dr. Kaku - I still do - but he has a very clear anti-nuke agenda, and he's smart enough to parse his words in a such way to make his opinion sound irrefutable (to the casual observer) on the issue.
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so with quick radcon math, at those two distances, it is acting like a point source on crack (obviously it would act like a plane source much closer)??? I know these are rough estimates. Good to know some values.
"Two helicopters made four attempts to drop water into unit 3 with mixed success. Radiation readings taken from a smaller helicopter beforehand indicated levels of 4.13 millisieverts per hour at 1,000 feet above the unit and 87.7 millisieverts at 300 feet. Although crews were equipped with protective gear, radiation levels limited the amount of time the helicopters could work in the area, and they did not hover directly above the unit."
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Assuming a big plane source and assuming that these helicopter readings are correct, radcon math sez we got about 80 R/hr at 100 ft with 200-500 R/hr on the ground depending on source size and a host of other variables. Of course, the only way to know for sure is an HP with a teletector or similar instrument. I'm sure there would be some hot spots that would peg the tele at 1000 R/hr.
Based on the "helicopter" report, I would have to agree with the Chernobyl approach at this point...of course, only the people on the ground know for sure. Based solely on the "helicopter" report, it looks like we have an INES Level 7 Major Accident brewing and we are in denial, which is not just a river in Egypt.
However, I just heard another report, which is contrary to the "helicopter" report. I have heard that it is 300 microsieverts/hr at the gate, which equates to 30 mrem/hr and the fuel is covered. Based on this report, everything is under control (relatively speaking of course). Only the people on the ground really know for sure....let's hope the helicopter report is wrong.
thats kind of an issue right now. I read an article that first said "micro" seiverts, then in the same article it said "milli" seiverts. Two VERY different numbers obviously...
I dont understand why they are trying to "save the situation" anymore. Isnt it time to bring out the lead and steel? Even with 1000R/hr radiation level a fifteen minute drop from a helicopter would only be 166 R. (yes "only", I get it). Last I checked 166 Rem acute dose would be a somatic effect and prognosis would be good (95%+). Even then, 1000R/hr at the pool wouldnt be what they would get in a helicopter. EPA limit is 75 rem for lifesaving, does preventing a massive release of radiation count towards this?
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We keep hearing dose rate over the facility. We know that there is some air borne as some of our sailors came back with minimal contamination, I am more than a little curious about how much is shine from the plant and how much is immersion dose from a plume if any? Still looking if anyone sees this please post.
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I also think that Dr. Kaku is premature in calling for the sarcophagus.
Additionally, there is a flaw in his logic, if the radiation levels are too high to either dump water from helicopters or to spray into the buildings via water cannon … how are they supposed to get sand, cement, and boron into the reactor buildings without incurring similar or higher doses?
I would suggest bomb squad robots with cameras, radiacs, and dosemitry for the initial inspections and depositing battery powered video cameras for surveillance.
The sarcophagus also is a de facto resignation to abandon in place as opposed to a stabilization followed by long term disassembly in place over a matter of years; as they did at TMI-2. We can learn much more about severe accident mitigation and apply those lessons to future operation and design. Some of you may remember Admiral Rickover’s response to a fuel element failure on a (I think 585 class) submarine – (I’m paraphrasing) continue to operate it and monitor its degradation over time. Essentially, we’ll hopefully never have another opportunity like this from which to learn, but we have it so let’s make the best of it. Let me be clear, that none of us wanted an accident of this magnitude to ever Ever EVER occur – but it did and we must deal with the consequences rationally and responsibly.
One of the problems with current reports is that we hear lots about radiation levels, but little about contaminated material (i.e., mass , activity, or radio isotopic content) releases. In fact most of the talking heads don’t seem to understand the difference. I have seen no information about air particulate samples that would yield some concentration data to extrapolate radioactive material (mass, content, and activity) releases and better estimate fuel damage in the cores of Units 1, 2, and 3, and in the Units 3 & 4 SFP .
We may get to the point where the sarcophagus is the best choice. But I don’t think we or a professor in a news studio with continents and oceans between us and the scene have sufficient information to make that decision. We have an obligation to contemplate and discuss it, but only those with the responsibility, authority, and accountability can make that call. Godspeed to them.
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PJ -> The opportunity to learn is great, but what point do we call enough, enough? Theres only so much we can learn from an exposed fuel pool... The reactors are useless now, so why not bury the fuel rods to prevent further release?
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One of the problems with current reports is that we hear lots about radiation levels, but little about contaminated material (i.e., mass , activity, or radio isotopic content) releases. In fact most of the talking heads don’t seem to understand the difference. I have seen no information about air particulate samples that would yield some concentration data to extrapolate radioactive material (mass, content, and activity) releases and better estimate fuel damage in the cores of Units 1, 2, and 3, and in the Units 3 & 4 SFP .
The anecdotes point towards a high level of shine and a low level of contamination release. That would point towards the fuel being exposed but not much damage.
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okay I'll give it a shot to get the ball rolling. smite and catcall away!
calling r-eff 25ft, and calling the DR 6r/hr at 300 ft, I'm getting somewhere around 10,000 r/hr next to the pool. Lots of guessing and assumptions here. Anybody ever taken a doserate on a dry fuelpool with tons of irradiated fuel in it?
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Murph,
That is a great question, maybe the only truly urgent question. When is enough - enough? As I stated, we don’t have sufficient information to make that call; however, I also acknowledge that we may be there already. Moreover, a healthy and honest debate on the subject will hopefully raise points of consideration that each of us left alone may not have identified.
What can we learn by delaying or avoiding adding boron, sand, and cement?
1. How much fuel damage has occurred under these conditions? In each of the three reactors and the uncovered SPF? We know it’s bad, but precisely how bad?
2. Under these conditions is full meltdown avoidable?
a. Did it happen?
b. How did vessel internals respond?
c. What design modifications should be implemented moving forward?
d. Are current ABWR, ESBWR, and AP1000 designs sufficient under a similar scenario?
3. Are current design basis accidents sufficient? If not, what specific other considerations should be factored into new designs and retrofitted into existing operational fleet.
4. What additional retrofits should be made to existing Mark I containment systems? (Richter 9, 10, 11? 8, 9, 10 meter tsunami?)
5. Should plants with Mark I containments by decommissioned?
6. Is there a lower limit to the amount of fuel that should be stored in the spent fuel pool than is currently practiced? I would argue that fuel reprocessing will reduce the amount of high level radiation and reduce the amount of spent fuel that is accumulating at reactors the world over.
Are there downside risks to proceeding with entombment today?
1. How would a six (maybe eight) reactor facility entombed in concrete respond to seismic activity and subsequent tsunami?
2. Will a cement, sand, and boron reach all areas intended to be entombed? Or will we be left with a constantly leaching radioactive semi-porous block of concrete at the water’s edge?
3. How will the necessary materials be transported to the site?
4. How much of each will be required?
5. At what mixture should the materials be injected?
I know there are more questions than answers now and that some of these questions can be partially answered going down either path. They don’t clean up crime scenes before the evidence has been collected and preserved. We will undoubtedly learn more if we are not forced to entomb these plants and SFP. However if entombment is the rational decision after careful consideration, then that is how we should proceed.
I welcome the challenge Murph, we’re better collectively through the respectful exchange of ideas.
[Note: I bounce back and forth between first person singular and first person plural – I can’t help but feel a part of this and I’m filled with sympathy and empathy for all lives affected by this truly horrific tragedy.]
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Some good news, finally. (From World nuclear news)
There are now 130 new personel at the plant, nuclear experts, engineers, rescue, military.
Several fire trucks are pumping water into the spent fuel pool and the best news, they have restored one of the emergency diesels so they now have power to the pumps to cool the cores. Unless something unexpected happens, it looks like the worst is behind us.
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I hope the pool has enough integrity left to hold water!! Don't know how damaged it is. Good news though.
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Some of you may remember Admiral Rickover’s response to a fuel element failure on a (I think 585 class) submarine – (I’m paraphrasing) continue to operate it and monitor its degradation over time. Essentially, we’ll hopefully never have another opportunity like this from which to learn, but we have it so let’s make the best of it. Let me be clear, that none of us wanted an accident of this magnitude to ever Ever EVER occur – but it did and we must deal with the consequences rationally and responsibly.
I know you are generalizing the comparison between the two to make a point, but let's not let anyone think that Rickover operated with failed fuel. Without delving into the construction differences between the highly engineered Navy fuel and the commercial fuel in use. A decision to operate with a scratch on one bundle of Navy fuel is a much different than an out of control plant due to a 1000 year accident that was beyond the safety basis.
I do agree with your intent though that is an opportunity to learn. We learned from TMI that our assumptions for the spread of Iodine were too conservative and that the plants are well designed and should be trusted including your indications from your instrumentation. We also have newer designs of reactors that rely on more passive safety designs that do not require or require very little outside systems or power.
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Easy people. This board is starting to look like a free fall into hysteria. There are some good questions, thought provoking to be sure, that have been posted but these problems remain... controlled. All is not well with these plants, some to a greater extent than others - but that does not mean lets get the helicopters were out of time. Calm, rational, and above all informed decisions need to be made prior to taking ANY action. People with a whole lot more information than we have, and who I am sure are a lot smarter than me, are watching this closely. If they are smart, they will have ditchpoints set up and stick to them. That is if rad release rates reach X we go option b, at Y release rate we commence option c, and entomb it. At no point should this be a carpet bombing of sand and boric acid and cement. Strategic dumps, should they be necessary, should suffice.
I believe it premature to just write it all off. Things are bad, but they are not in freefall.
XF
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Some good news, finally. (From World nuclear news)
There are now 130 new personel at the plant, nuclear experts, engineers, rescue, military.
Several fire trucks are pumping water into the spent fuel pool and the best news, they have restored one of the emergency diesels so they now have power to the pumps to cool the cores. Unless something unexpected happens, it looks like the worst is behind us.
LINKS!!! this is FANTASTIC news. Probably would have saved a lot of headache if they would have reported this to begin with (I imagine the plan was there from the get go).
Xe -> We're not hysterical. Just raising the questions and opening them for our community to answer. I think we all have the required baseline knowledge to know this isnt any kind of chernobyl-esque incident. The secrecy of the japanese reporting just isnt helping the PR side of this.
Heres some fantastic info. Despite whats happened, heres the latest casualty report
Injuries
2 TEPCO employees have minor injuries
2 subcontractor employees are injured, one person suffered broken legs and one person whose condition is unknown was transported to the hospital
2 people are missing
2 people were 'suddenly taken ill'
2 TEPCO employees were transported to hospital during the time of donning respiratory protection in the control centre
4 people (2 TEPCO employees, 2 subcontractor employees) sustained minor injuries due to the explosion at unit 1 on 11 March and were transported to the hospital
11 people (4 TEPCO employees, 3 subcontractor employees and 4 Japanese civil defense workers) were injured due to the explosion at unit 3 on 14 March
Radiological Contamination
17 people (9 TEPCO employees, 8 subcontractor employees) suffered from deposition of radioactive material to their faces, but were not taken to the hospital because of low levels of exposure
One worker suffered from significant exposure during 'vent work,' and was transported to an offsite center
2 policemen who were exposed to radiation were decontaminated
Firemen who were exposed to radiation are under investigation
The IAEA continues to seek information from Japanese authorities about all aspects of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.
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I hope the pool has enough integrity left to hold water!! Don't know how damaged it is. Good news though.
Mighty putty? :)
https://www.buymightyputtynow.com/flare/next?rtag=mightyputty&
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Xe -> We're not hysterical. Just raising the questions and opening them for our community to answer. I think we all have the required baseline knowledge to know this isn't any kind of chernobyl-esque incident. The secrecy of the Japanese reporting just isn't helping the PR side of this.
Charlie,
My take (& we all know I could be wrong) is the reminder that this fantastic discussion can be understood by many of us as talk around this virtual breakroom table that is Nukeworker. The perception by some or even just one of the 63 guests who were viewing this just recently COULD BE "See I told you we were all doomed!" based on their interpretation of it.
I agree wholeheartedly that the reporting isn't helping the PR side, at least here in the States. I don't believe that it is totally a subterfuge on their part but more cultural. (Again, I could be totally off-base)
One thing I AM CERTAIN OF is what our next SOER report will be. I do look forward to our lessons learned and continue to keep our brethren over there in my thoughts & prayers.
Peace, (Shamelessly stolen from Marssim)
Tom
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Some good news, finally. (From World nuclear news)
There are now 130 new personel at the plant, nuclear experts, engineers, rescue, military.
Several fire trucks are pumping water into the spent fuel pool and the best news, they have restored one of the emergency diesels so they now have power to the pumps to cool the cores. Unless something unexpected happens, it looks like the worst is behind us.
The EDG is for Units 5&6, which are the ones in relativley good shape.
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Charlie,
My take (& we all know I could be wrong) is the reminder that this fantastic discussion can be understood by many of us as talk around this virtual breakroom table that is Nukeworker. The perception by some or even just one of the 63 guests who were viewing this just recently COULD BE "See I told you we were all doomed!" based on their interpretation of it.
I agree wholeheartedly that the reporting isn't helping the PR side, at least here in the States. I don't believe that it is totally a subterfuge on their part but more cultural. (Again, I could be totally off-base)
One thing I AM CERTAIN OF is what our next SOER report will be. I do look forward to our lessons learned and continue to keep our brethren over there in my thoughts & prayers.
Peace, (Shamelessly stolen from Marssim)
Tom
edit: I do understand your point, I will try to phrase questions differently.
Id ASSume that the members who are going to think that, are also paying dear attention to MSNBC and eating every word of it up too. Their ignorance shouldnt prevent us from asking questions should it?
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I have followed this thread closely, this one has been a very good, and much more professional than some of our other threads that can descend into meandering thought and squabbling. I don't know about the other forum staff but I personally am very happy with the conduct and contribution that has been provided so far. Please don't take this wrong, the gentle reminders and moderation by participants is much preferred to any active moderation by the Forum staff.
Thanx, everyone is doing a great job
Marlin,
Moderator
Xe -> We're not hysterical. Just raising the questions and opening them for our community to answer. I think we all have the required baseline knowledge to know this isnt any kind of chernobyl-esque incident. The secrecy of the japanese reporting just isnt helping the PR side of this.
Easy people. This board is starting to look like a free fall into hysteria. There are some good questions, thought provoking to be sure, that have been posted but these problems remain... controlled. All is not well with these plants, some to a greater extent than others - but that does not mean lets get the helicopters were out of time. Calm, rational, and above all informed decisions need to be made prior to taking ANY action. People with a whole lot more information than we have, and who I am sure are a lot smarter than me, are watching this closely. If they are smart, they will have ditchpoints set up and stick to them. That is if rad release rates reach X we go option b, at Y release rate we commence option c, and entomb it. At no point should this be a carpet bombing of sand and boric acid and cement. Strategic dumps, should they be necessary, should suffice.
I believe it premature to just write it all off. Things are bad, but they are not in freefall.
XF
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I don't know about the other forum staff but I personally am very happy with the conduct and contribution that has been provided so far. Please don't take this wrong, the gentle reminders and moderation by participants is much preferred to any active moderation by the Forum staff.
Clearly we do know, Tom weighed in while I was composing. [coffee]
Thanx Tom,
Charlie,
My take (& we all know I could be wrong) is the reminder that this fantastic discussion can be understood by many of us as talk around this virtual breakroom table that is Nukeworker. The perception by some or even just one of the 63 guests who were viewing this just recently COULD BE "See I told you we were all doomed!" based on their interpretation of it.
I agree wholeheartedly that the reporting isn't helping the PR side, at least here in the States. I don't believe that it is totally a subterfuge on their part but more cultural. (Again, I could be totally off-base)
One thing I AM CERTAIN OF is what our next SOER report will be. I do look forward to our lessons learned and continue to keep our brethren over there in my thoughts & prayers.
Peace, (Shamelessly stolen from Marssim)
Tom
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The NRC is already looking into US plants. I didn't bring a copy of the document home to list specifics, but each plant has to answer a list of questions by the 24th, pertaining to readiness for such events.
Justin
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Now is definitely not a time to bury our head in the sand and push our "I believe" buttons. The situation has been out of "control" for days.
There are measures of control. I do not have complete "control" over anything, except possibly my own actions. The situation in three reactors is rough, but they have injection which means cooling, there is, as far as we know, no core breach (fuel outside of the reactor). We have venting of containment which means cooling water can continue to be injected. Containment is mainly intact around these reactors for all three - again as far as we know. Any dropping of the "triple cocktail" on these three reactors will serve no purpose except to prevent further efforts to get on top of the situation there. The pools right now have water being pumped in at what I would guess is tremendous flowrates. The pools may require the cement and sand and boric acid but they are not there yet. Situations can change and degrade fast in any catastrophe, nuclear power plants especially, but in my opinion we still have some measure of control.
My opinion is worth the price you paid for it,
XF
EDIT: we = they. I can not help but to put myself in their shoes, so I default to using "we". Sorry.
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The BBC is reporting that TEPCO has gotten a power line onto the site.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12779512
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There is a Wikipedia page dedicated to the accident that is updated fairly regularly. I can't speak for its veracity, but it does contain a time line and the only place I've found with any appreciable information regarding attempted solutions to the problems with loss of power and cooling as well as damage and fire suppression efforts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_nuclear_accidents
As with everything else you see, take it with a grain of salt and always confirm to the best of your ability and resources.
PJ
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The NRC is already looking into US plants. I didn't bring a copy of the document home to list specifics, but each plant has to answer a list of questions by the 24th, pertaining to readiness for such events.
Justin
The NRC or INPO? We received an INPO limited distribution document that sounds very familiar to what you're talking about.
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This is the 2nd update we here at the Nevada Test Site have received on some of the CMRT crew that flew over on Monday from Nellis AFB-------
Got a call from Kevin ****** this afternoon (time in Japan is 16 hours ahead, so 3 PM our time is 7 AM Japan time, next day). They are staying at Yokota Air Base (a USAF base) (www.yokota.af.mil) (100 mi. west of Tokyo) and working out of a hanger. He said he and Ray ****** had a driver take them to the US Embassy yesterday, and while he and Ray were taking an air sample and swipes on the roof, they were hit with a 6.2 magnitude quake.
They are getting 20 uR/hr general area dose rate readings, which he thought were background, and 0 on the swipes. They were detecting iodine in the air samples. Ray asked for 10,000-15,000 more swipes and 10 boxes of swipe envelopes, which Paul ********** is getting over to RSL for shipment tomorrow. I guess they’re planning on being busy.
Kevin, Ray, and Paul ***** are working days , and Rob ****** is working nights.
If you want to talk to them, Kevin has an RSL cell phone (***-***-****) and will have it with him today.
We will all (NTS CMRT RCT's) get a rotation in Japan. Wish us luck
Edited By Rennhack: Removed peoples last names and phone number, which appeared to have been used without permission.
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The NRC or INPO? We received an INPO limited distribution document that sounds very familiar to what you're talking about.
.......nuclear utilities across the country are taking actions to address vulnerabilities
identified as a result of considering the occurrence of extreme events at U.S. nuclear power
plants that are well beyond those that were considered in the design of the plants. Several
of these actions are being coordinated by the Institute of Nuclear Power Operations (INPO),
an industry organization which promotes excellence and the highest levels of reliability in
the operation of commercial nuclear power plants.
INPO distributed a Level 1 Event Report this week that provides recommendations for
utilities to take due to the unusual nature of events and significant damage that has
occurred to the six units of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station following a
magnitude 9.0 earthquake and subsequent tsunami on March 11, 2011.
The teams staffing centralized response centers and satellite centers at the nuclear
sites will ensure actions associated with INPO’s recommendations are performed as
expected. Even though the full extent of damage to the Fukushima Daiichi reactors is still unknown,
this represents a significant challenge to the safety of these units. As more is learned
about the Japanese events, INPO said that more long-term actions will be developed. The
recommendations provided by INPO this week to senior executives representing all U.S.
nuclear power plants include:
Verify each company’s capability to mitigate conditions that result from severe adverse
events, including the loss of significant operational and safety systems due to natural
events, fires, aircraft impact and explosions. Specific actions include testing and
inspecting equipment required to mitigate these events and verifying that qualifications
of operators and support staff required to implement them are current.
Verify that the capability to mitigate a total loss of electric power to a nuclear power
plant is proper and functional. This will require inspections verifying that all required
materials are adequate and properly staged and that procedures are implemented.
Verify the capability to mitigate flooding and the impact of floods on systems inside
and outside the plant. Specific actions include verifying required materials and
equipment are properly located to protect them from flood.
Perform walk downs and inspection of important equipment needed to successfully
respond to fire and flood events. Identify the potential that the equipment’s function
could be lost during seismic events appropriate for the site and develop mitigating
strategies for potential vulnerabilities.
The nuclear industry’s priority remains providing Japan with any support requested to help
maintain safety at the Fukushima reactors. Industry updates on the situation in Japan are
available from the Nuclear Energy Institute and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
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The NRC or INPO? We received an INPO limited distribution document that sounds very familiar to what you're talking about.
It may have been INPO, but I could swear I saw the NRC crest on it when I glanced over it, but I was more interested in other things at the time so I didn't pay that close attention. Either way, we have something to respond to. :)
Local newpapers and news here is reporting "Beaver Valley only able to withstand 5.8!! OMG!!!!!" >:( >:( [BH] [BH] [censored] [censored] [RTFM]
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It may have been INPO, but I could swear I saw the NRC crest on it when I glanced over it, but I was more interested in other things at the time so I didn't pay that close attention. Either way, we have something to respond to. :)
Local newpapers and news here is reporting "Beaver Valley only able to withstand 5.8!! OMG!!!!!" >:( >:( [BH] [BH] [censored] [censored] [RTFM]
Well, when the techtonic plates under central usa shift, I know what plant im gonna stay away from! :)
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The challenge from INPO to ensure plant readiness is excellent. I am very proud of this decisive, formal, and comprehensive look at our plants ability to cope with beyond design disasters. This is exactly the type of look at ourselves that will doubtlessly reveal some shortcomings that can be addressed swiftly before they are relied upon to protect the public, should they ever be needed.
XF
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The challenge from INPO to ensure plant readiness is excellent. I am very proud of this decisive, formal, and comprehensive look at our plants ability to cope with beyond design disasters. This is exactly the type of look at ourselves that will doubtlessly reveal some shortcomings that can be addressed swiftly before they are relied upon to protect the public, should they ever be needed.
XF
Yup, I am just glad I am not the one that has to answer it. We are in outage so no one is available except the Ops ILT sup, and he ain't happy about it either. :D
Justin
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I dont understand why they are trying to "save the situation" anymore. Isnt it time to bring out the lead and steel? Even with 1000R/hr radiation level a fifteen minute drop from a helicopter would only be 166 R. (yes "only", I get it). Last I checked 166 Rem acute dose would be a somatic effect and prognosis would be good (95%+). Even then, 1000R/hr at the pool wouldnt be what they would get in a helicopter. EPA limit is 75 rem for lifesaving, does preventing a massive release of radiation count towards this?
I agree. Total core meltdown isn't a matter of "IF" anymore as we all have agreed it is now a "WHEN."
Get them out and seal it off best you can. [2cents]
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No need to redact (retract?) any names or phone numbers. I want the world to see Ray and Kevins names, and Rob's for that matter. If you've been in the business (nuke) long enough, these three birds should ring a bell somewhere. Come back safe guys. My turn is comin soon.
the link below shows the CMRT team loading up.....
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One of the things that I've thought merits consideration is examining the number of units at a single site. During a cataclysmic event like the earthquake in Japan, having multiple design basis accidents going on at the same time is beyond the response capability of even the best-trained, most-experienced organizations. Loss of power and/or cooling water at the same time is bad enough at a single unit, but imagine being the Shift Manager with 3 simultaneous ECA 0.0's going on at the same time. Add to that the inability of response organizations being able to make it back to work puts an enormous burden on the crew standing the watch.
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I absolutely could not disagree with you more doc. "Total core meltdown" is by no means a certainty, in fact the situation seems to be getting [marginally] better not worse. This is not based on hopes and wishes but actual operating experience and many years of training. This event is on the order of weeks to stabilize not days, give it some time. As I posted also, right now there is no way to "entomb" anything without making the situation even worse. If it gets worse, then by all means they should do what needs to be done. I am not advocating waiting to do anything, I am advocating that we give countermeasures being taken a real chance of making things better - throwing in the towel will make things much, much worse right now. That is a fact.
XF
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I absolutely could not disagree with you more doc. "Total core meltdown" is by no means a certainty, in fact the situation seems to be getting [marginally] better not worse. This is not based on hopes and wishes but actual operating experience and many years of training. This event is on the order of weeks to stabilize not days, give it some time. As I posted also, right now there is no way to "entomb" anything without making the situation even worse. If it gets worse, then by all means they should do what needs to be done. I am not advocating waiting to do anything, I am advocating that we give countermeasures being taken a real chance of making things better - throwing in the towel will make things much, much worse right now. That is a fact.
XF
Not trying to sound disrespectful by any means, but does anyone have any concrete proof in front of them?? CNN is reporting one thing one day and totally opposite the next. And Fox entertainment may as well be a Madd Magazine.
Japanese officials are saying no no no, we are doing ok and the levels are acceptable, but #1 has anyone been inside to see the pools??? And why is an exec from Tokyo power siding with American analysts saying it is worse than what is being reported?
I know I am new on this forum, but when they are pulling the rest of their people out, sounds like it may be more than they can handle and aren't giving the whole truth.
Again, I am not an expert in nuc physics, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....... :D
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And regardless of the outcome, I hope the people that live remotely close to the plant fair well. It isn't bad enough that they had an earthquake and tsunami, but the rescue forces are still divided between this and trying to save those who are still alive in the mess.
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I have no experience with core damage
I have no idea what the SFP looks like
I have very little hard data that supports my position
But I have been in this industry for some time, so I also have the following:
I understand nuclear physics (I do not possess a degree)
I understand plant design (I am not a designer)
I have knowledge of plant procedures, including those that are being used now
I have great trust in our industry for solving problems
I have tremendous respect for the personnel over there fighting this disaster
I have confidence in the tenacity and selflessness of the Japanese people
I have an unshakable faith in the combined efforts of the world to see this thing appropriately resolved. I may end up being wrong, but I will remain committed to my beliefs.
XF
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I have a healthy sense of uneasiness for potential failure modes
...a sensitivity to operations
...a reluctance to oversimplify and, a
...deference to expertise when things go south
And it ain't looking good for Fukushima
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I have a healthy sense of uneasiness for potential failure modes
...a sensitivity to operations
...a reluctance to oversimplify and, a
...deference to expertise when things go south
And it ain't looking good for Fukushima
Eloquent speech. Utterly useless.
What are you basing your prognosis on Fukishima on? The fact they finally have power? The fact they finally have the cores covered with stable water supply? Or maybe its the new bodies coming in to take the place of the battle scarred and weary initial responders? No... It must be the fuel pools getting recovered in water.
yes, that just sounds awful...
(http://vixxiv.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/picard-facepalm.jpg)
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Let's focus. All viewpoints are valid.
Justin
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I am no cheerleader for the industry. I am a realist, but I am optomistic about the outcome. I can quote facts like minimum steam cooling water level, the height of the fuel, pressure vs. temperature in containment... but ultimately no one gives a damn. Is it safe... hell no - they have major issues they have to deal with. First of all they need power back to all 6 units, then they need to get some decay heat removal pumps running at 3 of the units when they can get the pumps working. They need to stabilize water level in, and commence cooling, their spent fuel pools. They need to get cooled back down so the discharge of radioactive steam from containment can be stopped. Their buildings are open to atmosphere, they will need temporary repairs at some point. They have a massive amount of contamination to clean up. The reactors at units 1-4 will never work again, that's fine, but are they "melting down"? No, I doubt it, there is a lot of fuel damage. Is it worse than 3 mile island, oh yeah - as bad as chernobyl - not even close. So I absolutely agree with you Barbie, it does not look good for Fukushima, but it does not look like the end.
Here is some good news from NISA:
Cable installation to receive electricity from the transmission line of
Tohoku Electric Power Company. Schedule to be connected to Unit 2
after the completion of discharge work. (17:30 March 17th)
・ Emergency Diesel Generator (1 unit) for Unit 6 operable. Supplying
electricity to Unit 5 and 6. Water injection to Spent Fuel Pool through
the Make up Water Condensate System (MUWC) progressing. Schedule
to inject water to the Reactor Pressure Vessel (RPV) after the recovery of
external power source.
XF
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I am sorry...it was obviously taken out of context...here's a hint:
http://www.amazon.com/Managing-Unexpected-Resilient-Performance-Uncertainty/dp/0787996491/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300410677&sr=8-1
It's called High Reliability Operations...spawned by some guy named Hyman in the last century.
So, they have the fuel covered? I must have missed that.
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ABCNEWS.COM is reporting
"Radiation levels have soared in some places around the plant in the last 24 hours. The highest readings outside the area have come 30 kilometers northwest of the plant, where levels of 170 millisieverts were measured. "
I don't think so :-X
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Let's see...170 millisieverts is 17 rem...30 kilometers from the plant...if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. It sounds like fuel melting and releasing radioactivity into the atmosphere. I can't help but hope the report is incorrect.
I hope the best for the Japanese people and all those downwind...
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I heard an interview on the radio today in the Seattle area. The woman being interviewed was an Assistant Professor of Nuclear Engineering at Idaho State. I didn't have a pen handy to write down her name. If any of you know who this might be, can you please let me know or pass on a "BZ" from me please? She did a very good job during the interview. David Bose (the host) was asking her a lot of questions that were leading to the "this is going to be bad in the US right?" line of thinking, and she did an excellent job of answering his questions ("no") and steering the conversation back to more accurate lines of thinking, all while explaining the situation very well for the lay man. She also did a good job of not speaking down to the host or the audience (something I have a problem with most of the time). I wish I could remember her name so I could try to tell her this myself, but I am hoping that word can get to her somehow from this forum. The community needs more people like her to try to educate the general public.
V/R
01changeup
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01 Change Up,
Only one women listed on the ISU Nuclear Engineering Faculty Page
Dunzik-Gougar, Mary Lou Ph.D. - Assistant Professor
Dr. Dunzik-Gougar received her Ph.D. from Pennsylvania State University in 2003. Her research interests include the nuclear fuel cycle, systems modeling, spent fuel processing, and waste form development.
mldg@isu.edu
OT: Seattle - You a Zag Fan?
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OT: Seattle - You a Zag Fan?
Nope, Buckeyes all the way! I am just stationed here for now...
V/R
01changeup
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01 Change Up,
Only one women listed on the ISU Nuclear Engineering Faculty Page
Dunzik-Gougar, Mary Lou Ph.D. - Assistant Professor
Dr. Dunzik-Gougar received her Ph.D. from Pennsylvania State University in 2003. Her research interests include the nuclear fuel cycle, systems modeling, spent fuel processing, and waste form development.
mldg@isu.edu
Thanks for the info. I must have had too much St. Patrick's Day juice already; I didn't even think of looking at the site! My bad. Thanks for doing the leg work for me.
V/R
01changeup
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Let's see...170 millisieverts is 17 rem...30 kilometers from the plant...if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. It sounds like fuel melting and releasing radioactivity into the atmosphere. I can't help but hope the report is incorrect.
Maybe I am arguing too fine a point on melt down... there is fuel damage, a lot of it - you're getting no argument from me. It seems more than likely there was a partial melting of fuel, I don't know how long the reactors or the spent fuel pool went without water. If the damaged fuel, whether from the spent fuel pool or the reactor or containment, can be covered then the continued release of airborne should slow or stop. When I hear "meltdown" I think a loss of coolable geometry of the core (or the fuel in the fuel pool). I am not sure they are there yet. I don't know the gap release so I don't know the extent of damage, so really I have no basis at all for any argument They are in the RP and e-plan realm now and I defer to their better judgement. You may be right.
XF
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ABCNEWS.COM is reporting
"Radiation levels have soared in some places around the plant in the last 24 hours. The highest readings outside the area have come 30 kilometers northwest of the plant, where levels of 170 millisieverts were measured. "
I don't think so :-X
I assume what is meant per hour rate. If at 30 km it is 17 rem, at one km it is around 15,300 Rem, an instantly fatal dose. How could there be workers there still? I thought the greater danger was contamination to the public and associated cancer rates that result.
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17R at 30km. give me a break.
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Think airborne radioactivity, not inverse square law...
The number is possible considering plume dispersal; however, it certainly sounds high and like everything else should be taken with a grain of salt.
Which way has the wind been blowing?
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I heard an interview on the radio today in the Seattle area. The woman being interviewed was an Assistant Professor of Nuclear Engineering at Idaho State. I didn't have a pen handy to write down her name. If any of you know who this might be, can you please let me know or pass on a "BZ" from me please? She did a very good job during the interview. David Bose (the host) was asking her a lot of questions that were leading to the "this is going to be bad in the US right?" line of thinking, and she did an excellent job of answering his questions ("no") and steering the conversation back to more accurate lines of thinking, all while explaining the situation very well for the lay man. She also did a good job of not speaking down to the host or the audience (something I have a problem with most of the time). I wish I could remember her name so I could try to tell her this myself, but I am hoping that word can get to her somehow from this forum. The community needs more people like her to try to educate the general public.
V/R
01changeup
I have found the interview to which I was referring. For those who are interested, here is the link:
http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=193
V/R
01changeup
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Weather Underground:
http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/47595.html
Wind 13 MPH from the WNW
So it is blowing in the direction of the prevailing westerlies in the mid latitudes and supposed to continue for the rest of the week. It's blowing offshore - that is a blessing.
I am suspect of those radiation levels.
PJ
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ABCNEWS.COM is reporting
"Radiation levels have soared in some places around the plant in the last 24 hours. The highest readings outside the area have come 30 kilometers northwest of the plant, where levels of 170 millisieverts were measured. "
I don't think so :-X
Sorry gotta call BS on this one. After Chernobyl the radiation levels in Pripyat (3Km from the plant) were 1r/hr. This incident is no where near Chernobyl. This is a case of some idiot reporter getting it wrong... yet again.
I have to say the workers at that plant have my utmost respect. When you look at pictures of the utter devastation in the area around the plant there and realize these guys have basically been cut off from the world since the Tsunami wiped out their city. These guys have been making silk purses out of sows ears for a week now. They are the ultimate in my book. True heroes.
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Possible, but highly improbable, particularly considering wind direction...probably microsieverts, not millisieverts
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Possible, but highly improbable, particularly considering wind direction...probably microsieverts, not millisieverts
You have to think - the media has been having problems between milli and micro all week and if some of them are trying to convert between sieverts and rem - and then mixing the terms - well!
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You have to think - the media has been having problems between milli and micro all week and if some of them are trying to convert between sieverts and rem - and then mixing the terms - well!
What??? The media doing incorrect calculations on activity levels????? They don't know what they are talking about????? ROFL
Good call Old1!!!!
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I found this article quite disturbing:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703818204576207012491767884.html?mod=WSJ_newsreel_business
On Tuesday, Tepco requested 10 GE truck-mounted gas turbines, which can provide temporary power, for use in the emergency-response effort. The power plant's backup diesel generators and their fuel supplies were destroyed by the tsunami. GE said that three of the 10 trucks are ready in Florida, awaiting air transport.
Why aren't some of these trucks already on their way to Japan? All it takes is making the transport high enough priority; for example the Commander-in-Chief could direct the dispatch of a few C-17's......
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I found this article quite disturbing:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703818204576207012491767884.html?mod=WSJ_newsreel_business
Why aren't some of these trucks already on their way to Japan? All it takes is making the transport high enough priority; for example the Commander-in-Chief could direct the dispatch of a few C-17's......
GE is waiting for the purchase order? :)
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I just listened to the radio broadcast posted earlier regarding the Nuclear Scientist explaining g things in laymens terms for the general public. It was excellent and she did a wonderful job of placing things in perspective. We need to get her interviewed by as many media outlets as possible.
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I wonder if they are using any of the remote controller helicopters available to help find out the status. They're not radiation hardened, but they might last long enough to get some images from of the spent fuel pools.
http://www.rchelicopter.com/category/rc-helicopter-film-digital-video-still-camera-systems/
http://www.draganfly.com/industrial/products.php
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GE is waiting for the purchase order? :)
Ugh! Isn't that the truth?! [BH]
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I just watched the live NRC briefing on CNN. In a nutshell they said this accident will put a huge damper on new plant construction and will delay license renewals by 12-24 months as they focus on lessons learned. They also hinted at making storage pools 1E.
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GE is waiting for the purchase order? :)
GE will be waiting quite some time for some other purchase orders ;) I'll bet there are quite a few folks on the ABWR project that could help out on the loading dock...
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LA Times Story: States workers attempting to restore power had to retreat due to hi radiation.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sci-japan-reactor-damage-20110318,0,7832119.story
This is not a very optimistic article. It has been remarkably quiet today. I hope that we enter a phase where power is restored, SFP levels are reestablished, rad levels drop, and then I would expect news to dry up as the clean up begins in earnest. I don't think we're there yet and that's why the lack of news bothers me.
Anybody have any information to the contrary?
Thanks,
PJ
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LA Times Story: States workers attempting to restore power had to retreat due to hi radiation.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sci-japan-reactor-damage-20110318,0,7832119.story
This is not a very optimistic article. It has been remarkably quiet today. I hope that we enter a phase where power is restored, SFP levels are reestablished, rad levels drop, and then I would expect news to dry up as the clean up begins in earnest. I don't think we're there yet and that's why the lack of news bothers me.
Anybody have any information to the contrary?
Thanks,
PJ
The article says "repeatedly" not "retreated", is it possible that they are surveying their way in, establishing shield walls, and rotating workers to equalize dose?
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While 'retreat' is not the exact word (and I am the first to admit we are suffering from a lack of precision in these reports), here is the first sentence of the above referenced article:
"Efforts to try to restore power to reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi complex are interrupted as high radiation forces the withdrawal of workers. "
The operative phrase being "... HIGH RADIATION FORCES THE WITHDRAWAL OF WORKERS."
You say withdrawal, I say retreat ... any Gershwin fans?
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GE will be waiting quite some time for some other purchase orders ;) I'll bet there are quite a few folks on the ABWR project that could help out on the loading dock...
Obviously I was kidding but seriously I do not see what the hold up is for power. US Army has 75 5kV 750kW mobile generators capable of being airlifted in. Where are they? I understand the issues with roads torn up, radiation levels, overall chaos but a week without having power back is a joke. I don't care what was damaged, mobile substations are easy to find (I have a bunch of them).
To me the only logical (?) reason is the government has not allowed or asked for assistance, or waited too long.
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Some decent technical info released
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Insight_to_Fukushima_engineering_challenges_1803112.html
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While 'retreat' is not the exact word (and I am the first to admit we are suffering from a lack of precision in these reports), here is the first sentence of the above referenced article:
"Efforts to try to restore power to reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi complex are interrupted as high radiation forces the withdrawal of workers. "
The operative phrase being "... HIGH RADIATION FORCES THE WITHDRAWAL OF WORKERS."
You say withdrawal, I say retreat ... any Gershwin fans?
PJ, I was a publisher of a newspaper for a little over 3 years...you quote the heading which is designed to capture a person's attention...the body of the text says, "...but their task was repeatedly interrupted by the need to withdraw workers because of high radiation levels."
Either interpretation is possible given the circumstances, but I usually rely on the body text; not headlines.
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Here is an article I received from my father in law, I believe it was from the New York Times editorial desk
011 03 18
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR. Homer Simpson Need Not Apply. By MICHAEL FRIEDLANDER. Michael Friedlander is a nuclear engineer.. Hong Kong
WATCHING the coverage of the crisis at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station unfold on TV, I was reminded of my own close call with a nuclear emergency.
In 1988 I was a newly minted shift technical adviser at the South Texas Project, a power plant near the Gulf Coast. Hurricane Gilbert, at the time a Category 5 storm, was bearing down on us. I received word from plant management that all workers should leave except for critical plant personnel like myself. I called my wife and told her to go inland with our 4-month-old daughter. Eventually the storm weakened and turned south. But there was never a question: my team and I would stay, regardless of what happened.
The situation facing the 50 workers left at Fukushima is a nuclear operator's worst nightmare. Fortunately, despite harrowing situations like mine, almost none of us will ever deal with anything like it. But the knowledge that a nuclear crisis could occur, and that we might be the only people standing in the way of a meltdown, defines every aspect of an operator's life.
The field attracts a very particular kind of person. I became a nuclear worker in the 1980s, in the wake of the oil crises of the 1970s. Nuclear power, for all its risks, seemed like the best alternative, and people like me who signed up at the time saw ourselves as the guardians of America's energy future. We were the ones who would prevent the risks of nuclear power from becoming a reality, who would keep the plants safe and, in turn, the country's way of life secure.
The same spirit motivates today's workers. Contrary to the depiction of nuclear operators as bumbling slackers in 'The Simpsons,' the typical employee is more like a cross between a jet pilot and a firefighter: highly trained to keep a technically complex system running, but also prepared to be the first and usually only line of defense in an emergency.
Training to be a senior reactor operator takes up to two years and involves demonstrating one's ability to process complex, sometimes contradictory information rapidly and under intense pressure. The training regimen also grinds into us the overwhelming importance of staying put in an emergency situation, even at great risk to our own safety. There are simply too many contingencies and too many functions that require close observation for an emergency to be handled remotely.
And so while the world wondered why the workers at the Fukushima plant didn't flee, my fellow nuclear operators and I weren't surprised. One employee is reported to have received a significant dose of radiation while trying to vent pressure on one of the reactor's containment vessels. There is no question that this act saved countless lives. But there is also no question that the operator acted knowing full well that he could suffer long-term injury from doing so.
Those of us in the industry are also watching the management of the crisis. It's easy to be critical, from a distance, and while I have yet to see anything that smacks of negligence or mishandling, a few obvious questions come to mind.
For one thing, considering the difficulties of managing a nuclear accident within a disaster zone, was the plant staff provided with the necessary technical support and equipment? It's also clear that procedures need to be in place for better handling of the insatiable demand for information from the news media. Finally, given the multiple problems at Fukushima, we should revisit the standard protocol for dealing with a nuclear emergency, which assumes a problem with a single reactor, even at a multiunit site.
We will likely hear numerous stories of heroism over the next several days, of plant operators struggling to keep water flowing into the reactors, breathing hard against their respirators under the dim rays of a handheld flashlight in the cold, dark recesses of a critically damaged nuclear plant, knowing that at any moment another hydrogen explosion could occur.
These operators will be hailed as heroes, and deservedly so. But if they are like the rest of the tightly knit community of nuclear workers, they will simply say they were doing their job.
Helping keep some of it in perspective.
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Touche,
That is an excellent point. I don't know that I have seen it (sensationalized headlines) as bad as during this set of events. I'd love to have a PI server and access to real time data to better understand exactly what is going on, absent that I/we (others on this board) have been searching and attempting to piece things together. I have found many instances of new 'breathless' headlines above 'stale' information.
Thanks for pointing that out - it's actually been annoying me and I more or less fell into their trap.
PJ
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:o
May be sending direct observations soon. Was just asked to prepare to mobilize for Japan.
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:o
May be sending direct observations soon. Was just asked to prepare to mobilize for Japan.
What is your area of expertise that is in high demand at this stage of control and recovery?
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Health Physics, ERO
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I just listened to the radio broadcast posted earlier regarding the Nuclear Scientist explaining g things in laymens terms for the general public. It was excellent and she did a wonderful job of placing things in perspective. We need to get her interviewed by as many media outlets as possible.
someone intelligent that can explain whats going on in a manner that doesnt sound like the nuclear apolocolypse is this week? Nah, that wont do for american media ... we need dr kaku telling the world whats POSSIBLE that could happen in the most extreme methods possible. yeah, that makes sense -.- :D
hatrai07, be safe and let us know whats going on if you get the chance to go over!
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Obviously I was kidding but seriously I do not see what the hold up is for power. US Army has 75 5kV 750kW mobile generators capable of being airlifted in. Where are they? I understand the issues with roads torn up, radiation levels, overall chaos but a week without having power back is a joke. I don't care what was damaged, mobile substations are easy to find (I have a bunch of them).
To me the only logical (?) reason is the government has not allowed or asked for assistance, or waited too long.
I think one problem is that even when power arrives on site, the switchgear and other electrical components have been exposed to sea water. Even the water they've been pumping into the reactor buildings has been sea water. Pump motors and other equipment will need some maintenance to be operable. With the doses in the reactor buildings, that could be a tall order.
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I think buckeye is on the money with that one.
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I think he hit that one right also.
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Japan has both 50 and 60Hz. These particular plants are 50Hz. Japan uses 400V instead of 480V as their main AC industrial voltage. These plants might be 480 given their GE heritage, but maybe not.
I hope someone has that all figured out before they ship the generator over there.
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This situation was out of control when the SFP became uncovered...you can blow sweet smelling smoke all day...but it is what it is.
If you don't understand what that means, you will learn...we are all about to learn...this accident exceeded the TMI accident on Tuesday...it is Friday...is the fuel covered? Did I miss something?
So, what's the temperature of uncovered fuel? Now, what happens to water when you put it on really hot stuff? Sorry, but the truth stinks.
Let me know how that putting water on bare spent fuel works...
Quack, Quack
The situation exceeded TMI last weekend it still has a long way to go to come close to Chennobyl. Read all the real info not just the s*** put out by the media that doesn't understand the difference between micro, milli, & Macro.
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Barbie has information that even the IAEA doesn't have! As far as I know everything is speculation. Yes, the fuel pool levels may be dropping. But, how many LPRM cannisters did they have stored in that pool? Falling debris may have upset a storage can of LPRM detectors. Where are the Fuel pool heat exchangers located in this model? Damage to the Heat exchangers? Filters from Tri Nukes, or other media? Maybe a container of stellite bearings from recent Blade disposal projects? Everything is speculation.
On a brighter note; I heard today that a manufacturer has been contacted about his EDEx shield vests for use in Japan. That tells me that these missions of recovery are being controlled by an actual ERO plan. "Retreated due to dose rates" means they have been briefed on the specific mission, given turn around dose rates for re-evaluation, and are proceeding with revised plans. A lesson we all should learn, to partake in quarterly ERO drills with a little more interest....
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Okay, there are only 2 possibilities as I see it.
A. The core is, or will, completely melt. I believe I have made my position clear on this likelyhood. But let's assume for a minute that is does. There is literally nothing more than what is being done to minimize the effects of this. They are injecting water and venting the steam, and they are filling containment in at least two of the sites. Until other means of cooling become available that is all they will have. There is no way to drop any cement or boric acid or anything else on top of that core or even onto the reactor because containment is still intact. Unless that changes there is NO REASON to even attempt this, it can only make matters worse since anything that was being done is no longer going to work.
B. The core is in as bad a state as it will get and steam cooling has been moderately effective. Then you put your efforts into continuing as in 'A.' but you are setting yourself up for long term decay heat removal with the RHR system. This should work with few issues at units 1 and 2 since as you guys have been talking about there hasn't been dumping of seawater all over those buildings so the pumps are likely in "decent" shape. Unit 3 may be pretty tough, again as you guys have posted. The refuel floor is not water tight but it also not a straight shot down into the building, and with no walls much of the water may have just dumped back outside of the building. Until the status of those pumps is known, and the likelyhood they will remain in a usable state based on Spent fuel pool damage and further water additions, there is no way to predict how this will play out. But they can continue as in A. above until a solution becomes avaialble.
The spent fuel pools may end up needing the cement and sand mixture. I wish there was more detail about their status other than "level low" and "fuel damage suspected"
XF
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I am thinking so too. Looking at the pictures of the surrounding area, it's just utter devastation. They could have had all the DC gear pre-placed they wanted, but if your gear is smashed, washed away, or just plain missing after a 1000 year category Tsunami, well there ain't much you can do. This accident can't be taken in isolation of what has occurred around it. It's part of the overall picture.
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Once they decided to use seawater for cooling they gave up ever operating the plant again making them nuclear mausoleums at that point.
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Just read a Reuters article that said they have almost completed stringing the power lines to the outside of the plant, they have another 5000 ft of cables that need to be rigged inside the plant to make it work. That's a heck of a job.
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The situation exceeded TMI last weekend it still has a long way to go to come close to Chennobyl. Read all the real info not just the s*** put out by the media that doesn't understand the difference between micro, milli, & Macro.
This situation will never get to the point of Chernobyl due to 1. No graphite moderator burning out of control for days, providing a transport path for the decay products, 2. No major steam explosion forcing in milliseconds an 8 foot thick reactor head 30 feet into the air and landing sideways, exposing the core, and 3. the entire core hasn't blown out of the reactor vessel, with whats left getting so hot from the fire and decay heat to melt completely out of the vessel and becoming a lava flow in the basement. Just my .02.
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Video made for children to explain the situation at the Fukushima plant.
Would also make for a great RadCon training video.
Wish our media wasn't so dumb.
This guys blog has some great entries about media sensationalism when it comes the Fukushima plant
http://modernmarketingjapan.blogspot.com/ (http://modernmarketingjapan.blogspot.com/)
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Video made for children to explain the situation at the Fukushima plant.
Ooohhhh..... Now I get it. :P
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Video made for children to explain the situation at the Fukushima plant.
Would also make for a great RadCon training video.
Wish our media wasn't so dumb.
This guys blog has some great entries about media sensationalism when it comes the Fukushima plant
http://modernmarketingjapan.blogspot.com/ (http://modernmarketingjapan.blogspot.com/)
LMAO 8 kinds of awesomeness here ;)
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I think one problem is that even when power arrives on site, the switchgear and other electrical components have been exposed to sea water. Even the water they've been pumping into the reactor buildings has been sea water. Pump motors and other equipment will need some maintenance to be operable. With the doses in the reactor buildings, that could be a tall order.
I had made that same assumption but come on, they have had over a week. Mobile switchgear could have been brought in and cabled to bypass the contaminated (Salt water) gear. Motors, that one I did not consider, I would assume the motors are protected from water intrusion, but if not megger them to see which ones are godd/bad and plan from there. Replacement motors could have been on site by now.
Of course if radiation levels are too high around that equipment for people to be there then it makes it hard. But, the generators, switchgear, and motors should have been staged at the site a day or two into this. It is not that hard to have it all staged.
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Of course if radiation levels are too high around that equipment for people to be there then it makes it hard.
And it is that lack of understanding of the big picture, that makes me thankful y'all only sell switchgear and not rad protection services >:(
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And it is that lack of understanding of the big picture, that makes me thankful y'all only sell switchgear and not rad protection services >:(
Well you are making some odd assumptions but I fail to see your point. Care to explain what is wrong about what I said?
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JAPANESE EARTHQUAKE—11 MARCH 2011
1
WANO UPDATE 13—19 March 2011, 12:08 GMT
Fukushima Daiichi Site—Efforts continue to restore electrical power to units 1 and 2,
the goal is to have power restored today. Concurrent efforts are underway to restore
power to units 3 and 4 which is expected to occur within the next couple of days.
The highest dose rate observed outside of the 20kilometre evacuation zone was
140microSv/hr (14mrem/hr)
Some radioactivity has been detected in food samples taken within a 30kilometre
radius of the station.
Fukushima Daiichi Units 1/2/3—Seawater injection continues into these units.
Fukushima Daiichi Unit 3—The Tokyo Fire Department is using an unmanned
water injection gun to spray water into the spent fuel pool. Spraying was temporarily
suspended due to the attempt to restore electrical power to the unit.
Fukushima Daiichi Units 4—Plans are being made to begin using water cannons to
resume adding water to the unit 4 spent fuel pool.
Fukushima Daiichi Units 3/4—Maximum radiation level measured next to the
reactor buildings is 150mSv/h (15Rem/hr) on 18 March.
Fukushima Daiichi Unit 5/6—A second unit 6 emergency diesel generator has been
started and is supplying electrical power to various equipment in both units.
A residual heat removal pump was started at 05:00AM JST and is providing cooling
to the unit 5 spent fuel pool.
In order to prevent hydrogen gas from accumulating three holes have been drilled
through the reactor building roofs
Maximum radiation level measured next to the reactor buildings is 1mSv/h
(100mrem/hr) on 18 March.
Miscellaneous Information—The number of spent fuel assemblies in the spent fuel
pool of each unit is as follows:
Unit : number / capacity
Unit 1: 292 / 900
Unit 2: 587 / 1240
Unit 3: 514 / 1220
Unit 4: 1331(*) / 1590
Unit 5: 946 / 1590
Unit 6: 876 / 1770
Common (Shared) fuel pool: 6375 / 6840
(*) 1331 includes 783 spent fuel assemblies and 548 unloaded from the reactor for the inspection.
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Just read a Reuters article that said they have almost completed stringing the power lines to the outside of the plant, they have another 5000 ft of cables that need to be rigged inside the plant to make it work. That's a heck of a job.
When I first left the navy, I worked as an electrician in a brand new steel mill that was still under construction in some places, and my first job was to pull a bunch of very heavy cable about 300 feet. Took me a while and was tough work, but I had "good" air, plenty of lighting, and all the time in the world to do it.
I could not imagine pulling 5,000 feet as quickly as I can, probably wearing anti-c's and a respirator, in the dark while keeping an eye on my dose rate.
What these guys are having to do is just incredible to think about.
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As if the media misinformation wasn't bad enough we have predators on the web as well.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/technology/fallout.asp
If anyone here who is in the business is asked a question please be patient as there is not one clear picture and there are people with agendas of their own disseminating false and heavily biased information. Much of what I hear in the media from any of the outlets is a little off the mark. Nukeworker has been a good forum so far for information but there are still gaps I would like filled but understand that it is unlikely we will get a full view until it is over as it should be, the real experts for these plants are very busy with the emergency and we will get evolution of the event with data, Root Cause and lessons learned in detail after the fact.
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As if the media misinformation wasn't bad enough we have predators on the web as well.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/technology/fallout.asp
If anyone here who is in the business is asked a question please be patient as there is not one clear picture and there are people with agendas of their own disseminating false and heavily biased information. Much of what I hear in the media from any of the outlets is a little off the mark. Nukeworker has been a good forum so far for information but there are still gaps I would like filled but understand that it is unlikely we will get a full view until it is over as it should be, the real experts for these plants are very busy with the emergency and we will get evolution of the event with data, Root Cause and lessons learned in detail after the fact.
Yeah, I saw that pic the other day. Went to the Australian company whose logo is on that picture and the first thing I saw was a big disclaimer in red letters saying they had nothing to do with that graphic. It is sad that there are predators out there taking advantage of public fears. But there are guys like us who are informing our relatives when they call us, and posting on message boards we frequent to try and clarify what is really going on and give truthful information about the nuclear industry, radiation, and contamination. I really urge all of you to start a thread on message boards you go to concerning this topic. We have something here that didn't really exist in this form in the 80's when the combination of Chernobyl and the late 70's TMI-2 accident occurred. The internet. Let's all use it as a way to get good info out to the public.
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Does anyone know where the diesels are located? I haven't yet seen any detailed site layout diagrams which show this, and I haven't seen any aerial images showing obvious exhaust stacks, etc.
Also, here is the DigitalGlobe image from 3-18-2011.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5133/5537297305_207bd7d9bf_o.jpg
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5133/5537297305_207bd7d9bf_o.jpg)
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Does anyone know where the diesels are located? I haven't yet seen any detailed site layout diagrams which show this, and I haven't seen any aerial images showing obvious exhaust stacks, etc.
Also, here is the DigitalGlobe image from 3-18-2011.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5133/5537297305_207bd7d9bf_o.jpg
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5133/5537297305_207bd7d9bf_o.jpg)
Just guessing by looking at the layout, it looks like their emergency diesels are in the bottom right corner, next to Unit 4. I could be wrong, so take it for what its worth. They have what appears to be piping or a bus running over to those buildings.
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http://www.weather.com/blog/weather/8_24226.html?from=blog_permalink_mainindex#comment
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Interesting NEI white paper on changes made to Mark I containments.
http://www.nei.org/filefolder/Report_-_BWR_Mark_I_Containment_03192011_2.pdf
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Following this incidnet makes me realize the major media has ADHD.
Just last week this was the unending focus of the media. Nothing but non-stop breathless reporting about how dire the situation was.
This week? Nothing, it is forgotten.
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"Also on Friday, the IAEA reported updated incident levels for each of the damaged units. The incidents at units 1 though 3 are rated at level 5 out of seven. The incident at unit 4’s spent fuel tank is rated level 3."
http://nuclearstreet.com/
This would make 1-3 equal to TMI. At least not the 6 that France was declaring supposedly.
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"Also on Friday, the IAEA reported updated incident levels for each of the damaged units. The incidents at units 1 though 3 are rated at level 5 out of seven. The incident at unit 4’s spent fuel tank is rated level 3."
http://nuclearstreet.com/
This would make 1-3 equal to TMI. At least not the 6 that France was declaring supposedly.
TMI was a 5? I thought it was a 4 O.o At least thats what dr Kaku said...
are there criteria to meet for each level? Id imagine level of radiation release, physical damage, ability to "clean up", and casualties are the major factors? Who sets this limit? and Is chernobyl the "control group" so to speak, or did it just meet criteria to be a 7?
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http://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/pub1265_web.pdf (http://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/pub1265_web.pdf)
From Nuclear Street...
www.nisa.meti.go.jp/.../en20110320-4-2.pdf
(http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/.../en20110320-4-2.pdf)
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From NEI website this morning
"Radiation dose rates at monitoring posts are slightly higher than on past days. Rates at the plant site boundary range from 1 to 3 millirem per hour. Radiation dose rates in the area where fire trucks have been located are reported to be 2 to 3 rem per hour, with some isolated areas as high as 30 rem per hour."
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http://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/pub1265_web.pdf (http://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/pub1265_web.pdf)
From Nuclear Street...
www.nisa.meti.go.jp/.../en20110320-4-2.pdf
(http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/.../en20110320-4-2.pdf)
I dont see the 1-7 scale in there, seems to be a risk assesment vs actual scales. (Im seein categorys of potential problems vice what the actual casualties would put you in a certain category).
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I dont see the 1-7 scale in there, seems to be a risk assesment vs actual scales.
it wood appear that if yew melt yore core 'n set fire two your moderator to send said core all over the countryside, you are hi on the scale. if you melt your core 'n keep your containment intact to maintain control of your contamination you are low on the scale. iIf you are in between those too, you are middle of the scale.
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Site with some IR pictures of the 4 reactor buildings. Unit 2 doesn't look so good.
http://bigdustup.blogspot.com/2011/03/infrared-ir-thermal-images-of-fukushima.html
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Following this incidnet makes me realize the major media has ADHD.
Just last week this was the unending focus of the media. Nothing but non-stop breathless reporting about how dire the situation was.
This week? Nothing, it is forgotten.
:->
Did you mean incident?
And did you happen to notice that we (the US) entered into military action in Lybia with major action from the Naval and Air Forces? What means more to the media?
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it wood appear that if yew melt yore core 'n set fire two your moderator to send said core all over the countryside, you are hi on the scale. if you melt your core 'n keep your containment intact to maintain control of your contamination you are low on the scale. iIf you are in between those too, you are middle of the scale.
Im in between really annoyed and really amused, so I will remain nuetral to this comment ;)
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Im in between really annoyed and really amused, so I will remain nuetral to this comment ;)
Hey Yngwie..dont get mad or frustrated..
Try this link.
8)
http://www.google.com/ (http://www.google.com/)
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This explains a lot and fills in a couple of holes for me.
In the U.S., only the most worn-out rods typically are removed and transferred to a spent-fuel pool for storage, where they can stay for decades. Thus, U.S., pools hold only the oldest spent fuel, which is also the coolest in terms of temperature and radiation.
By contrast, at Tepco and other utilities, it's common to temporarily remove all the fuel rods. The freshest are eventually moved back to the reactor pressure vessel and supplemented with new rods to replace the oldest ones, which are left in the storage pools.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704433904576212980463881792.html
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This explains a lot and fills in a couple of holes for me.
In the U.S., only the most worn-out rods typically are removed and transferred to a spent-fuel pool for storage, where they can stay for decades. Thus, U.S., pools hold only the oldest spent fuel, which is also the coolest in terms of temperature and radiation.
The only units I have seen perform an inside the core shuffle (instead of full-core offloads) are the places without enough room in the SFP to fully off-load the core. I have heard of PWR's that think they could reload faster this way....
Since Unit 4 was shutdown for 5 months, I don't think they were trying to set a record outage....
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Full core offloads are all I remember, but I wasn't always on the refuel floor....
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All I remember are incore shuffles but then many plants had not gone to high density racks and many of the older plants were out of room. A lot of reracks were done in the 80s to accomodate full pools.
Note: I have not been in a power plant since the early 90's.
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This was posted on this thread five pages and six days ago,....
http://resources.nei.org/documents/japan/Used_Fuel_Pools_Key_Facts_March_16_Update.pdf
it's a good read,.... 8)
+K good stuff for us guys who have never been inside one of those! Thanks and Karma on this one!
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BWR's can do the shuffle thing because their fuel is self supporting, unlike PWR's that are just held in by the bottom latches and each other. Most PWR's do a full core offload to take water level below the flange for S/G eddy current to set the nozzle dams. BWR's don't have that problem, and with the smaller and therefore more numerous bundles, and the fact that they don't have to worry about an upender and transfer tube, a reshuffle just makes sense.
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This was posted on this thread five pages and six days ago,....
http://resources.nei.org/documents/japan/Used_Fuel_Pools_Key_Facts_March_16_Update.pdf
it's a good read,.... 8)
I read it but it does not mention a 100% off load of fuel during the maintenace cycle.
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I read it but it does not mention a 100% off load of fuel during the maintenace cycle.
An earlier post by peachie stated the following from a WANO Update (is the update accurate...*shrugs*)
"Miscellaneous Information—The number of spent fuel assemblies in the spent fuel
pool of each unit is as follows:
Unit : number / capacity
Unit 1: 292 / 900
Unit 2: 587 / 1240
Unit 3: 514 / 1220
Unit 4: 1331(*) / 1590
Unit 5: 946 / 1590
Unit 6: 876 / 1770
Common (Shared) fuel pool: 6375 / 6840
(*) 1331 includes 783 spent fuel assemblies and 548 unloaded from the reactor for the inspection."
This would seem to make sense for Unit 4 if it was preparing for, or performing, in-core inspections...if I recall correctly, there use to be a 10 year in-core ISI inspection that required a complete fuel offload...heck, one inspection resulted in a diver going into the vessel and I know we did a full core offload for that.
I am not a planner, but I would think the scheduled maintenance and plant capabilities would dictate either full off-load or in-core shuffle.
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I am not a planner, but I would think the scheduled maintenance and plant capabilities would dictate either full off-load or in-core shuffle.
Understood, the article I cited states that these plants do it as a routine each cycle which is not normal for an American BWR putting a much larger heat source from decay heat in the spent fuel pool on a routine basis. This was cited in the WSJ article as one of the contributing factors for the unexpected heating and fires in the spent fuel pool. I get and got that there is a distribution of fuel bundles in different states of decay between the reactor, the spent fuel pool, and the dry fuel cells. The article states that the ratio of recently removed bundles in the spent fuel pool is higher than might be expected in an American reactor in a normal fuel cycle.
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Understood, the article I cited states that these plants do it as a routine each cycle which is not normal for an American BWR putting a much larger heat source from decay heat in the spent fuel pool on a routine basis. This was cited in the WSJ article as one of the contributing factors for the unexpected heating and fires in the spent fuel pool. I get and got that there is a distribution of fuel bundles in different states of decay between the reactor, the spent fuel pool, and the dry fuel cells. The article states that the ratio of recently removed bundles in the spent fuel pool is higher than might be expected in an American reactor in a normal fuel cycle.
Agreed :)
Something I forgot to ask (I was in a hurry to leave for home)...What is the typical number of fuel bundles in this type of reactor? Does 548 account for a full offload?
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It really doesn't matter for a BWR unless the weir gate is closed since the fuel pool and the cavity are connected. The only difference would be the close packing in the reactor side verses the larger spacing and therefore better heat transfer capacity in the fuel pool.
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According to several reports, the Tokyo Water Supply has reported I-131 contamination in the tap water at 210bq/L. Which is 5676 uuCi/L. Report says it's twice the limit for infants.
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http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/22/chernobyl-cleanup-survivors-message-for-japan-run-away-as-qui/
I found this article yesterday and was up last night thinking of all the things wrong with this. Just wanted to post this so others would see the bad information be put out by the media. This lady did a great thing but now has decided to turn it into something bad. I just hope others see the truth as I did. We really don't need this adding to the fears people already have about Nuclear Power.
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http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/22/chernobyl-cleanup-survivors-message-for-japan-run-away-as-qui/
Good point. Something I keyed in on was the "Chernobyl Necklace". Thyroid issues are common even in people who have never been to Russia. Way to go to scare people even more.
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I know I am outraged by this article and the comments made by people. I wish someone would just state the facts for once. You are so right about the Thyroid issues. I wish there was better reporting on the issues and not opinions.
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Good point. Something I keyed in on was the "Chernobyl Necklace". Thyroid issues are common even in people who have never been to Russia. Way to go to scare people even more.
I've never been to Chernobyl, and I had half of my thyroid removed 7 years ago. Thyroid problems are also genetic, my maternal grandmother died from a thyroid tumor. Back then there were no thyroid hormone replacements.
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Konnichawa,
I have been reading the IAEA reports which seems to have the best information. I have been busting my hump on unit conversions. This is what I have been able to make of the situation in numbers we understand. Contamination levels up to 40 miles from the plant has reached levels of 150K on a 1 meter LAS or 15K dpm/100 cm2 beta-gamma, most of which is I-131. No alpha has been detected. This gives a general area dose rate of .9 mr/hr. At one point at about 20 miles from the plant, the dose rate (I assume from the plume since the numbers were smaller closer to the plant) were as high as 17 mrem/hr.
The gatehouse reached a maximum of 1,200 mrem/hr, this was 28 mr/hr as of yesterday. This maximum was when they had a high dose area of 40 rem/hr between units 3 and 4 with unconfirmed readings as high as 100 R/hr. Their dose limit was 10 REM and turn back number was 1 Rem/hr. When they exceeded that in the control room, they upped the limit to 25 rem and 10 rem/hr. So far of the "50" workers, 17 have received exposures greater than 10 REM.
There is a possible Chernobyl scenario as unit 4 SFP is covered with nearly 90 tons (I have a hard time with that number) of sea salt which is acting as an insulator for the spent fuel. This does not allow cooling while at the same time allows hydrogen to build up. If unit 4 SFP has even a slight hydrogen explosion, this could be an accident where lives are lost due to radiation with 1331 spent fuel bundles in the pool with the most recent defueling of the reactor Nov. 2010. I want to publically thank a person we all know as "Bruce" for my level 1 Japanese Rosetta Stone.
I apologize if this is a repeat of information. I didn't read all 20 pages.
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Sea water is 3.5% solids. To get 90 tons of salt would require the evaporation of 2500 tons of seawater. To evaporate that much water in 15 days would require about 6500 MW average power so I don't buy the 90 tons of salt claim.
I could buy that 90 tons of seawater - that could happen with 200MW of average power.
I wonder what their efforts to get freshwater to the plant are?
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Can a member explain why a plutonium MOX fuel poses a greater danger in a breach situation than regular low-enriched uranium fuel? Is it appreciable?
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I wonder what their efforts to get freshwater to the plant are?
"Tokyo Electric Power Co. is stepping up efforts to switch from sea water to fresh water for cooling the reactors and used fuel storage pools. The United States government has urged the switch to fresh water as soon as possible and is providing two U.S. Navy barges, each of which can carry up to 1,000 tons of water. The ships are scheduled to reach port about 60 kilometers from the Daiichi plant in about three days. Japanese workers at the site will install pipes and hoses to carry the water to the plant."
from source http://nei.cachefly.net/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/ (http://nei.cachefly.net/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/)
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Sea water is 3.5% solids. To get 90 tons of salt would require the evaporation of 2500 tons of seawater. To evaporate that much water in 15 days would require about 6500 MW average power so I don't buy the 90 tons of salt claim.
I could buy that 90 tons of seawater - that could happen with 200MW of average power.
I wonder what their efforts to get freshwater to the plant are?
The have been putting in 150 tons of seawater in one cooling shot. The 2500 tons is not out of reach.
Unit 3 has 6% MOX fuel. The rest do not from what I can tell. I am not sure if it will be an issue, other than the fact the reactor building roof is useless in unit 3. I remember sitting on the Peach Bottom fuel floor with my buddy Steve who said, "They spent 100 million dollars a piece to build these units and then they put a tin roof on it." (Actually corrugated steel.) I always wondered when the fuel pools being exposed as much as they are would bite the industry.
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The have been putting in 150 tons of seawater in one cooling shot. The 2500 tons is not out of reach.
It has to be 2500 tons of evaporation though. If the sea water is leaking back out, it will pick up salt and wash it away because sea water isn't saturated with salt.
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Unit 3 has 6% MOX fuel. The rest do not from what I can tell. I am not sure if it will be an issue
If you are interested in understanding what impact the presence of Mixed Oxide Fuel had, than get a copy of the ANS Technical Brief dated 03-25-2011 that was prepared by Michaele (Mikey) Brady Raap.
It clearly explains the impact MOX fuel had on the accident consequences at Fukushima Daiichi.
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I
t clearly explains the impact MOX fuel had on the accident consequences at Fukushima Daiich
No it don't. It's nothing more then a weak sales pitch that addresses only the impact of MOX on cooling the fuel as compared to LEU. With any luck, the article will stay internal to ANS. The industry would be better served with critical questions and solid solutions then endless pollyanna articles.
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I
No it don't. It's nothing more then a weak sales pitch that addresses only the impact of MOX on cooling the fuel as compared to LEU. With any luck, the article will stay internal to ANS. The industry would be better served with critical questions and solid solutions then endless pollyanna articles.
Being able to express differing opinions - one of the great things about America. As far as the document staying internal to ANS, no it don't.
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I have some doubt as to the source of the hydrogen in unit 4 coming from the spent fuel pool. The fuel there was aged for 4 months before the accident so it would have cooled down considerably.
Unit 3 and unit 4 share a stack and ventalation system. I wonder if the hydrogen was actually from unit 3? Since the ventelation fans were off, when the vent from unit 3 was open, the steam and hydrogen would have been driven throughout the ductwork. This could have resulted in a release of hydrogen into unit 4's reactor building.
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http://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/pub1265_web.pdf (http://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/pub1265_web.pdf)
From Nuclear Street...
www.nisa.meti.go.jp/.../en20110320-4-2.pdf
(http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/.../en20110320-4-2.pdf)
http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Factsheets/English/ines.pdf
Gives a graphic and everything.
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wasn't the unit 4 spent fuel pool on fire at one time? that would cause bunches of hydrogen, right? besides, uncovered fuel in a fuel pool will heat up unless it is really old. 4 months isn't enough time to think uncovered fuel won't heat up and cause hydrogen production unless I am missing something...
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Today's IAEA report is fairly detailed on unit status and worker exposure. I-131 and Cs-137 don't seem that bad in the surrounding areas, detectable and little above limits but not catastrophic. 200 to 600 rem to a couple of workers legs are a little higher than previous exposures.
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html
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wasn't the unit 4 spent fuel pool on fire at one time?
Something on the top of unit 4 was burning, but since no one was in there I don't think they know for sure. No doubt there is plenty of flammables up there to make a bunch of smoke.
that would cause bunches of hydrogen, right?
Burning of zirconium would not make hydrogen. Hot rods in steam would.
besides, uncovered fuel in a fuel pool will heat up unless it is really old. 4 months isn't enough time to think uncovered fuel won't heat up and cause hydrogen production unless I am missing something...
From what I understand, 4 months is at the edge of the window for heating enough to react the zirconium. The elements no doubt would get very hot, but the temperature necessary is 1900°F.
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yeah, but I mean buring rods combined with throwing seawater on them. hot rods with seawater being put on them is what I am talking about. didnt they pump seawater into the fuel pool? seems obvious but maybe I am getting something wrong?
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Speaking of cold seawater on spent fuel pools and uncovered cores, any data on Na-24 found?
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I have some doubt as to the source of the hydrogen in unit 4 coming from the spent fuel pool. The fuel there was aged for 4 months before the accident so it would have cooled down considerably.
Unit 3 and unit 4 share a stack and ventalation system. I wonder if the hydrogen was actually from unit 3? Since the ventelation fans were off, when the vent from unit 3 was open, the steam and hydrogen would have been driven throughout the ductwork. This could have resulted in a release of hydrogen into unit 4's reactor building.
What happened to the presumption by TEPCO that the U4 refuel floor fire was from lube oil? Was that rescinded? I have problems seeing how U3 venting could've affected U4 - containment venting paths are via the stack, whereas reactor building ventilation has its own exhaust. It would've had to reverse down all way through Standby Gas Treatment; with how light H2 is, that seems to be a stretch.
I read today that the U3 hydrogen detonation had such force that it lifted the 200 ton-capacity crane and dropped it to the refuel floor, maybe impacting the pool. Geez.
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What happened to the presumption by TEPCO that the U4 refuel floor fire was from lube oil? Was that rescinded? I have problems seeing how U3 venting could've affected U4 - containment venting paths are via the stack, whereas reactor building ventilation has its own exhaust. It would've had to reverse down all way through Standby Gas Treatment; with how light H2 is, that seems to be a stretch.
I read today that the U3 hydrogen detonation had such force that it lifted the 200 ton-capacity crane and dropped it to the refuel floor, maybe impacting the pool. Geez.
Uh, yea..that and like the detonation didnt suck some (not all but prob some) of that H20 outta the SFP..duh!
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What happened to the presumption by TEPCO that the U4 refuel floor fire was from lube oil? Was that rescinded? I have problems seeing how U3 venting could've affected U4 - containment venting paths are via the stack, whereas reactor building ventilation has its own exhaust. It would've had to reverse down all way through Standby Gas Treatment; with how light H2 is, that seems to be a stretch.
I read today that the U3 hydrogen detonation had such force that it lifted the 200 ton-capacity crane and dropped it to the refuel floor, maybe impacting the pool. Geez.
I believe venting containment directly to the stack at the current early BWR units is a rework; the containment originally vented to the RB exhaust system. The US units got the upgrade, but the Japanese units didn't.
If the containment venting was directly to the stack, then it would have gone right up the stack and never resulted in an explosion to begin with.
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I believe venting containment directly to the stack at the current early BWR units is a rework; the containment originally vented to the RB exhaust system. The US units got the upgrade, but the Japanese units didn't.
If the containment venting was directly to the stack, then it would have gone right up the stack and never resulted in an explosion to begin with.
Do you remember where you saw that Japanese plants did not get the hardened vent mod to allow venting direct to the stack? I saw an recent interview with the NRC commissioner who said he didn't know if they had it.
There are many ways hydrogen can get into a Mark I secondary containment even if you are intentionally trying to send it up the stack - sustained high pressures in primary containment can force it through valve seats, leakage through HPCI/RCIC steamsides, operating RHR in steam condensing mode, etc. Also, to successfully vent primary containment to the stack, you must isolate the Standby Gas secondary containment suction dampers; normal position for those dampers is open, and I've wondered if they remained open post-blackout and were never able to be closed once venting became necessary.
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If you are interested in understanding what impact the presence of Mixed Oxide Fuel had, than get a copy of the ANS Technical Brief dated 03-25-2011 that was prepared by Michaele (Mikey) Brady Raap.
It clearly explains the impact MOX fuel had on the accident consequences at Fukushima Daiichi.
While the article defines a very tight (and miss leading) objective to address, it totally misses the impacts of a failed MOX fuel cell that a reader might expect from the "American Nuclear Society". Now, what would that be?
Oh, here it is: Plutonium now detected in soil samples taken over a week ago.
At what point does Japan Prime Minster Fire these TEPCO clowns? What does it take? It looks like they wanted to quit and walk off the job two weeks ago, and their actions show conclusively they are no where near being up for the task at hand. The are using unqualified personnel for dangerous clean up and wasting the efforts the work force that is volunteering blindly following a sense of patriotic duty.
The PM should have accepted the resignation proposal from Fukushima NP and transitioned Emergency Response management to GE-Hitachi. Or Areva. Or ten random guys at the airport. There is no indication T+2 weeks into this that their is any leadership, management, or central control in place. What is the plan? Answer, there is no plan. You are looking at it.
A quick look under the hood of this TEPCO operation shows why: a history of coverups, bribes, forged maintenance inspections, parts failure, deaths, rad releases. And that is just what we know about with government officials and oversight in their back pocket.
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Do you remember where you saw that Japanese plants did not get the hardened vent mod to allow venting direct to the stack? I saw an recent interview with the NRC commissioner who said he didn't know if they had it.
I think it was the NEI; when I go back to the document it appears to have been modified due to the recent testimony.
There are many ways hydrogen can get into a Mark I secondary containment even if you are intentionally trying to send it up the stack - sustained high pressures in primary containment can force it through valve seats, leakage through HPCI/RCIC steamsides, operating RHR in steam condensing mode, etc. Also, to successfully vent primary containment to the stack, you must isolate the Standby Gas secondary containment suction dampers; normal position for those dampers is open, and I've wondered if they remained open post-blackout and were never able to be closed once venting became necessary.
Since you're far more familiar with these plants, how likely do you think it is for the hydrogen to back up into a sister unit?
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Since you're far more familiar with these plants, how likely do you think it is for the hydrogen to back up into a sister unit?
Well the more I think about it, the more plausible your theory that Unit 3 hydrogen migrated back down from the stack into Unit 4. It is a long way to go, but if the venting driving head was about 100 psig in Unit 3 primary containment, then at the base of the stack to was maybe 30ish pounds, which is probably enough to force some backward though Unit 4 Standby Gas (whose secondary containment suction dampers would have been in the normal open position). Over the course of several ventings, it could have pooled enough in the upper regions of the Unit 4 refuel floor until it reached deflagration (burn, not explode) levels. The assumption, though, would have to be that that Japanese plants do have the hardened vent mod, which would have allowed primary containment venting to the stack.
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Forgive me for being an outsider. This thread has really enlightened me on a lot of details.
But my question now is this:
How in God's name can they still with any confidence compare this disaster in any way to TMI? With the massive radiation release going on with Daiichi, likely primary containment leakage (which they still cannot confirm........why? too dangerous to send someone in? What about a robot?), radioactoive water escaping to the ocean via overflow releases (or whatever they're called), and likely major SFP issues? Shouldn't this be a 6 on the 7 level scale?
I think by this continuously being compared to TMI on the scale, they're blowing TMI way out of proportion, making TMI seem so much worse than it actually was.
I agree with Loffy Muffin, because as an outsider, just a normal joe, it looks like they have absolutely no plans, and the Gov't is just regurgitating whatever TEPCO tells them, which may or may not be correct, and is likely to be highly filtered and neutered vs. the truth. I agree the workers there are heroes, but their leadership appears to be plowing through the dark using telekinesis.
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Forgive me for being an outsider. This thread has really enlightened me on a lot of details.
But my question now is this:
How in God's name can they still with any confidence compare this disaster in any way to TMI? With the massive radiation release going on with Daiichi, likely primary containment leakage (which they still cannot confirm........why? too dangerous to send someone in? What about a robot?), radioactoive water escaping to the ocean via overflow releases (or whatever they're called), and likely major SFP issues? Shouldn't this be a 6 on the 7 level scale?
I think by this continuously being compared to TMI on the scale, they're blowing TMI way out of proportion, making TMI seem so much worse than it actually was.
I agree with Loffy Muffin, because as an outsider, just a normal joe, it looks like they have absolutely no plans, and the Gov't is just regurgitating whatever TEPCO tells them, which may or may not be correct, and is likely to be highly filtered and neutered vs. the truth. I agree the workers there are heroes, but their leadership appears to be plowing through the dark using telekinesis.
To put this simply, they are responding to a disaster beyond the Safety Basis Design with a thousand year event, the fifth largest earthquake in recorded history. They are in a controlled chaos mode that does not lend itself well to updating upper management on every minute detail and I don't think they should their priority is the safety of the public right now as the plants are a loss. Communication is starting to flow but they just got lights back on in their control rooms this week so that is not to bad in my opinion.
You are right this should not be compared to TMI which was purely an economic disaster for the utility alone. It is not close to Chernobyl which blew a large portion of its active core out the top of the building. That and the design of Chernobyl was substandard by western norms, that and the Russian bureaucracy fueled an initial plant condition with safety systems blocked for an experiment.
Yes you are right the front line workers are heroes.
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This Fuku things seems to be something in between TMI and Chern. More units involved than either with Fuku, more radiation released to the environment than TMI, more physical damage to components that are supposed to protect the health and safety of the public than TMI, more damage to levels of containment. No deaths attributed to acute radiation exposure yet....TMI had none, chern had plenty. 100 rem/hr due to airborne near the Fuku plant is another hard to swallow point put out by the media, I think they meant puddles of radioactive water were reading 100 rem/hr (1,000 millisieverts per hour reported). Maybe they mean if you stuck your face right in the middle of the plume of the worst unit? Until TEPCO puts out better reports and more of the mainstream media learns to interpret better, we are still in the who knows phase....
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Right Marlin, I agree with some points. Of course we don't get the whole story though the media so I try to take it with a grain of salt, but there needs to be a reliable, consistent line of reporting from the front-line guys to the corporate heads/government to allow the full situation to be understood. What I believe is happening is TEPCO is watering it down for the government rather than telling the whole truth. I believe TEPCO knew from the get-go that this was a terrible scenario and that radiation was escaping but wanted the Govt' to believe they had a handle on it.
I know this is definitely no chern. I've read a lot on Chern and it seems like that was just a snowball of ignorance, disbelief, and failure to follow procedures based on warnings. And the several people sent to check the reactor who reported it had exploded were consistently met with disbelief.....just unbelieveable that situation was.
However, TMI was minor, in my opinion, compared to Daiichi is now. We're getting Iodine isotopes reported on the east coast of the U.S., some 5,000 miles from Daiichi. I can't sit here as an outsider with a straight face and go "oh, this is no big deal to Japan, those workers have this under control."
The way I see it, they need to inject boron/concrete into those reactors and stop this whole mess now. I doubt they'll be able to safely get in there and remediate/disassemble those things in any safe manner to people or property. I know the plant is a total loss, that much was clear when they started using salt water.
Again, forgive me, but that is my view as an average joe.
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need to cool the reactors. covering it all with concrete would not help that cause until much later. freshwater much better at this point to keep them from catching on fire at 2200F or more. gotta get rid of the decay heat first.
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The way I see it, they need to inject boron/concrete into those reactors and stop this whole mess now. I doubt they'll be able to safely get in there and remediate/disassemble those things in any safe manner to people or property. I know the plant is a total loss, that much was clear when they started using salt water.
Then what do you do with the monolithic waste that needs to be monitored and controlled. If you followed Chernobyl you would know that they burrowed under the facility as well to contain it. The less you have to dig out and ship to a proper landfill or above ground repository the better. Beach front mausoleums does not sound like a good stable environment for this kind of "nuclear waste" here in the US it would be "greater than class C" waste which has no permanent disposal path at this time.
Again, forgive me, but that is my view as an average joe.
Nothing to forgive, you are much better informed than most "average Joe's" I speak with.
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need to cool the reactors. covering it all with concrete would not help that cause until much later. freshwater much better at this point to keep them from catching on fire at 2200F or more. gotta get rid of the decay heat first.
Understood, and this makes sense. The decay heat will take a bit of time to work out, I'm assuming, somewhere along the line of months+ to get to a reasonable stability?
Marlin:
Good point. I forgot that they fully entombed Chern, not just built overtop of it. I imagine the logistics of digging underneath Daiichi would be more than difficult due to it's oceanside locale.
Is there any chance of them being able to remediate this once the decay heat dissipates somewhat, assuming they get the cooling under control and manage the leaks?
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Is there any chance of them being able to remediate this once the decay heat dissipates somewhat, assuming they get the cooling under control and manage the leaks?
We remediate and demolish reactors on a regular basis. It's just much more complicated in this case, but yes a few half lives of the shorter lived isotopes in the fuel will be necessary before any recovery work starts. Like the Hanford tank farms proximity to a large body of water makes the stabilization and remediation of the facility a priority.
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Some pretty high radiation readings in this IAEA report
Timestamp: IAEA Briefing on Fukushima Nuclear Accident (29 March 2011, 16:30 UTC)
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html
Check my math, but "... Dose rates at the surface of this water were 0.4 millisieverts/hour for Unit 1 and over 1 000 millisieverts/hour for Unit 2 as of 18:30 UTC on 26 March."
1,000 millisieverts/hour = 100 REM/Hour - ouch! That's hot for a surface reading on a trench by the turbine building.
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1,000 millisieverts/hour = 100 REM/Hour - ouch! That's hot for a surface reading on a trench by the turbine building.
I did some calculations last night and got the same amount. 100 REM/hour seems pretty high! Chernobyl was a lot worse. Not that they compare by any means, but just to see the difference in the two accidents. I believe they were experiencing around 400-500 REM/hour in some of the hotter areas where the radioactive graphite was being picked up by the fire fighters (correct me if wrong). I read a book that gave firsthand accounts of plant workers during the Chernobyl accident. I believe the name of the book was Ablaze. Very good book to read. It discussed how the situation unfolded and the many causes.
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At what point does Japan Prime Minster Fire these TEPCO clowns? What does it take? It looks like they wanted to quit and walk off the job two weeks ago, and their actions show conclusively they are no where near being up for the task at hand. The are using unqualified personnel for dangerous clean up and wasting the efforts the work force that is volunteering blindly following a sense of patriotic duty.
The PM should have accepted the resignation proposal from Fukushima NP and transitioned Emergency Response management to GE-Hitachi. Or Areva. Or ten random guys at the airport. There is no indication T+2 weeks into this that their is any leadership, management, or central control in place. What is the plan? Answer, there is no plan. You are looking at it.
A quick look under the hood of this TEPCO operation shows why: a history of coverups, bribes, forged maintenance inspections, parts failure, deaths, rad releases. And that is just what we know about with government officials and oversight in their back pocket.
What you must understand is the very powerful nature of the Utilities in Japan. It's essentially a quasi-mafia thing. This is because of the strange divide between the 50Hz Western Japanese Grid, and the 60 Hz Eastern Japanese Grid. This prevents competition for power supplies East v. West. It also had the effect of creating extremely powerful monopolies in the utilities. Up until this incident, there wasn't a politician alive in Japan who would go against the utilities. It was political suicide. The Utilities control power to the big corporations, the big corporations then lean on the pols. It remains to be seen what the, pardon the pun, fallout will be from all this. One of the things that's really hurting Japan right now is power shortages in the East, but they can't import power from the West where there is currently a huge surplus. Perhaps Japan will finally standardize on a frequency, but up to now that has been impossible because the utilities didn't want to do it as it would bust up their rackets. There are something like only 4 conversion stations in all of Japan to convert 50 Hz to 60 Hz and vice versa. In essence, Eastern Japan is on its own for power. That's why rolling black outs are happening in Tokyo, but in the other cities, like Kyoto, it's business as usual.
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wow about the east/west 50/60hz thing. truth is stranger than fiction.
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wow about the east/west 50/60hz thing. truth is stranger than fiction.
The 50Hz was based on European equipment Japan bought before WW2. Geography being what it is, we bombed away most of the infrastructure eat of the mountains of Honshu, so after the war they bought/built new from the US.
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Yea, it's strange. It comes from the fact that after WW2, the single government utility was broken up and they were allowed to buy their own equipment to rebuild. Some bought from the US (the Western utilities), some bought from Europe (Eastern Utilities). If you look at a map everything from about mid-Honshu up is 50 Hz, and from there down is 60. The dividing line is sort of North East of Nagoya and runs to the North East of Sado Island.
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Some news agencies are reporting that the unit 2 core melted through the bottom of the containment vessel. Has anyone heard this, or know if that is even a feasible scenario? Wouldn't it take a pretty incredible temperature to do that?
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Fresh water has been continuously injected into the Reactor Pressure Vessels (RPVs) of Units 1, 2 and 3. From today at Unit 1, the pumping of fresh water through the feed-water line will no longer be performed by fire trucks but by electrical pumps with a diesel generator. The switch to the use of such pumps has already been made in Units 2 and 3. At Unit 3, the fresh water is being injected through the fire extinguisher line.
Good news:
NAEA most recent update. A diesel generator supplying cooling water to 3 reactors? That can't be, 30 year veteran licensed nuclear shift manager said that it can't it be done. And multi group thinkers all agreed (with great prejudice I might add). It's good news but about 18 days too late, that should have been done within the first couple hours.
Should start to get the units into cool shutdown status in a couple of days. The most pressing issue remains the SFP. No satellite imaging? Hmmmm, $1T defense budget and we can't get simple high res satellite image? I would expect the worst here. With Pu being detected, #3 SFP would be most likely source.
No details on how they got the EDG in, I think they helo'd them in considering that would be the easiest. I did a quick google search on the weight of a skid mounted EDG set. Ranges from 27 ton to 15 ton on the three I looked at for 2KW. That chopper that was dumping 7.5 tons of should have been used to helo in multiple 2KW EDG's. 7x4 = 28 tons, it just takes 4 helo's per Set. A gas turbine would be lighter for the power output.
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No details on how they got the EDG in, I think they helo'd them in considering that would be the easiest. I did a quick google search on the weight of a skid mounted EDG set. Ranges from 27 ton to 15 ton on the three I looked at for 2KW. That chopper that was dumping 7.5 tons of should have been used to helo in multiple 2KW EDG's. 7x4 = 28 tons, it just takes 4 helo's per Set. A gas turbine would be lighter for the power output.
2KW, well now that IS impressive. Heck, the 5KW that I bought at Lowe's weighed upwards of 100 lbs.
A 4 helo snatch? Cool, when you get that working, call me right after the guys from Guinness Book of Records. I'd love to see 4 helos that could handle huge lateral torsion while controlling pitch. That would be like an UNREP in 4 dimensions!
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I wonder how many 2 kW generators it would take to make up for the lost EDGs?
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Good news:
NAEA most recent update. A diesel generator supplying cooling water to 3 reactors? That can't be, 30 year veteran licensed nuclear shift manager said that it can't it be done. And multi group thinkers all agreed (with great prejudice I might add). It's good news but about 18 days too late, that should have been done within the first couple hours.
Should start to get the units into cool shutdown status in a couple of days. The most pressing issue remains the SFP. No satellite imaging? Hmmmm, $1T defense budget and we can't get simple high res satellite image? I would expect the worst here. With Pu being detected, #3 SFP would be most likely source.
No details on how they got the EDG in, I think they helo'd them in considering that would be the easiest. I did a quick google search on the weight of a skid mounted EDG set. Ranges from 27 ton to 15 ton on the three I looked at for 2KW. That chopper that was dumping 7.5 tons of should have been used to helo in multiple 2KW EDG's. 7x4 = 28 tons, it just takes 4 helo's per Set. A gas turbine would be lighter for the power output.
question asked and answered.
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Latest NEI Updates
UPDATE AS OF 6:30 P.M. EDT, TUESDAY, MARCH 29:
Tokyo Electric Power Co. said that cooling water is being added to the spent storage fuel pools at reactors 2 and 3. Reactor 2 was using a temporary motor-driven pump and reactor 3 was using a truck to pump the freshwater into the fuel storage pools. The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said that plans are being made to begin pumping freshwater into the fuel storage pool at reactor 4 starting today.
IAEA said that 63 food samples taken March 24-29 in eight prefectures (Chiba, Fukushima, Gunma, Ibaraki, Miyagi, Niigata, Tochigi and Yamagata) were below regulatory limits set by the Japanese government for iodine-131, cesium-134 and cesium-137.
New analyses of seawater about 1,000 feet from the discharge point of reactors 1 through 4 show "a significant decrease" in radiation levels from March 26, IAEA said.
Readings for iodine-131 went from 2,000,000 picocuries (1 picocurie is one-trillionth of a curie) per liter on March 26 to 297,300 picocuries per liter on March 27. Readings for cesium-137 went from 324,324 picocuries per liter on March 26 to 51,351 picocuries per liter on March 27. IAEA said that radiation readings in seawater "will be quite variable in the near future depending on water discharge levels."
Two Curies per liter? At a 1000 feet from discharge? I'm wondering where the magenta and yellow rope is for surfing?
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Latest NEI Updates
UPDATE AS OF 6:30 P.M. EDT, TUESDAY, MARCH 29:
...
Readings for iodine-131 went from 2,000,000 picocuries (1 picocurie is one-trillionth of a curie) per liter on March 26 to 297,300 picocuries per liter on March 27. Readings for cesium-137 went from 324,324 picocuries per liter on March 26 to 51,351 picocuries per liter on March 27. IAEA said that radiation readings in seawater "will be quite variable in the near future depending on water discharge levels."
Two Curies per liter? At a 1000 feet from discharge? I'm wondering where the magenta and yellow rope is for surfing?
Check my math, but isn't that 2 uCi/liter?
2,000,000 picocuries
2,000,000 = 2.0e06
pico = 1.0e-12
2.0e06 * 1.0e-12 = 2.0e-06
Thus,
2.000,000 picocuries/liter = 2.0 uCi/liter
I'm not suggesting that still isn't cause for some concern; but it's better by six orders of magnitude.
Just sayin'
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Good news:
NAEA most recent update. A diesel generator supplying cooling water to 3 reactors? That can't be, 30 year veteran licensed nuclear shift manager said that it can't it be done. And multi group thinkers all agreed (with great prejudice I might add). It's good news but about 18 days too late, that should have been done within the first couple hours.
Nice straw man!
Nobody said it couldn't be done, just that it'd take something on the order of weeks not hours.
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No details on how they got the EDG in, I think they helo'd them in considering that would be the easiest. I did a quick google search on the weight of a skid mounted EDG set. Ranges from 27 ton to 15 ton on the three I looked at for 2KW. That chopper that was dumping 7.5 tons of should have been used to helo in multiple 2KW EDG's. 7x4 = 28 tons, it just takes 4 helo's per Set. A gas turbine would be lighter for the power output.
Most likely it came by road. The Japanese are VERY good at road repairs. They managed to get most of the vital arterial roads repaired in about a week. Here's a really good before and after shot
http://www.geargather.org/profiles/blogs/japan-road-repair-6-days
As for your 4 helo pipe dream, dude... nope. It doesn't work that way. I know movies have shown something like that, but it has no basis in reality. It's just not possible. Way too dangerous.
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As for your 4 helo pipe dream, dude... nope. It doesn't work that way. I know movies have shown something like that, but it has no basis in reality. It's just not possible. Way too dangerous.
Agreed. Anyone every try to carry a full keg using 4 people and ropes???
Were the trucks from Japan or off island?? They could get a C-4 Galaxy in there if they had a long and strong enough strip. Just playing devils advocate.
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Agreed. Anyone every try to carry a full keg using 4 people and ropes???
Were the trucks from Japan or off island?? They could get a C-4 Galaxy in there if they had a long and strong enough strip. Just playing devils advocate.
I believe you mean C5 - Galaxy
(http://www.howitflies.com/files/photos/wikiexport/e/e6/C5_galaxy.jpg)
Which is not a short field aircraft. The C17 is the new heavy (not a replacement for the C5 though) lift aircraft for the airforce. It was designed for rough and short field operations in mind.
(http://www.nsf.gov/od/opp/images/prss/c17_ice_runway.jpg)
Or you could just get a C130 to do the job.
(http://www.farfromglory.com/images/c130.jpg)
But, heck this is as close to a propeller as I get.
(http://images.wikia.com/macgyver/images/3/30/0808281240172.jpg)
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So,...........................
dude, everybody knows paper mills, nuke plants and oil derricks can all be fixed lickety split with a trash can lid and a bucket of wood ashes, just like John Wayne does it in the movies,.......
:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P,..... [coffee]
Or ... maybe ...
(http://uncrate.com/men/images/2010/05/macgyver-garb.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LiJCTiIqdb4/TG3blj34gVI/AAAAAAAADBU/-W9lRTKWn3w/s1600/1229271-macgyver_demotivational_poster_1216334236_super.jpg)
(http://www.dennis-jansen.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/macgyver.jpg)
Just saying, YMWV ;)
:P :P :P
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Check my math, but isn't that 2 uCi/liter?
I'm not suggesting that still isn't cause for some concern; but it's better by six orders of magnitude.
Just sayin'
My bad, I should have used my pointer to count the zeros. Still, saying that spill is evenly distributed over 1000 square meters where is that rope going to be posted?
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What you must understand is the very powerful nature of the Utilities in Japan. It's essentially a quasi-mafia thing. This is because of the strange divide between the 50Hz Western Japanese Grid, and the 60 Hz Eastern Japanese Grid.
I know this is but a nit, but I believe you have that backwards.
http://m.npr.org/news/Business/134828205?page=3
""One major problem is that the east and west of Japan have different electric cycles and the capacity of the connectors are very much limited," he says.
That's partly an accident of history. Eastern Japan followed the German model and has a 50-cycle electrical power grid. The western part of Japan used the American model and has a 60-cycle grid. Transferring power from one grid to another requires a very expensive facility. And there are only three connections between eastern and western Japan. That bottleneck means the power transfer is just a trickle, even during this national emergency. Creating more capacity would take years."
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I believe you mean C5 - Galaxy
Or you could just get a C130 to do the job.
Thanks for the correction Mac. I did mean C5. 4 and 5 are next to each other on the keyboard. :P
I know the C130 have quite a bit of cargo room, but I didn't know how big the generators were since I have never seen one before. Got any pics of those?
-Doc
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I know this is but a nit, but I believe you have that backwards.
http://m.npr.org/news/Business/134828205?page=3
""One major problem is that the east and west of Japan have different electric cycles and the capacity of the connectors are very much limited," he says.
That's partly an accident of history. Eastern Japan followed the German model and has a 50-cycle electrical power grid. The western part of Japan used the American model and has a 60-cycle grid. Transferring power from one grid to another requires a very expensive facility. And there are only three connections between eastern and western Japan. That bottleneck means the power transfer is just a trickle, even during this national emergency. Creating more capacity would take years."
East West confusion, yes made a mistake there, but I did have it correct in my later post, Everything from just north east of Nagoya down... i.e. Kyoto and all the US bases like Yokuska Sasebo, etc are all 60 hz. So yea... gig for Bean.
On the C-5A vs. C-17 vs. C-130J... depends on the weight of the generator you want to move. I think I saw earlier in this thread something like 27 tons. Which off the top of my head the C-130J should be able to move payload wise. It would depend on the dimensions of the generator though. You might have to go with a C-17 if you need more volume. C-5 would be overkill. In any case, it's irrelevant since there is no runway at the plant.
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In any case, it's irrelevant since there is no runway at the plant.
No not really. With the C130 you can LAPES (Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Altitude_Parachute_Extraction_System). I'm not sure if they still do this. It has killed a number of crews due to the load not coming off the ship even with the parachute deployed.
No strip ... No problem.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/C130lapes.jpg)
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C-5 would be overkill. In any case, it's irrelevant since there is no runway at the plant.
The dimensions are what I was referring to not the weight, although I know not too many driveable generators could weigh as much as an Abrams, right?
In my original post I did disclaim if they had a big enough runway to handle the load and length of the Galaxy. And if you flew 4 of them at once I think a Galaxy would fair better in fuel and flight hours versus 2 or 4 trips with a Hercules, wouldn't it?
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In my original post I did disclaim if they had a big enough runway to handle the load and length of the Galaxy. And if you flew 4 of them at once I think a Galaxy would fair better in fuel and flight hours versus 2 or 4 trips with a Hercules, wouldn't it?
Either way, it has to traverse a road capable of supporting the heavy transporters. Fortunately, the Critical Path of road repairs prevailed, and that's how the EDGs were delivered (much to Loffy Muffin's dismay of not going the 1 Mole-of-2KW generators-wired-in-parallel mode)
Since we're now down the route of AirForceLoadmaster.comTM... the logical route of future deliveries of large, heavy equipment once the spraying from barges evolutions are done, would be the same method as how the coastal plants received the vessels at construction: Large shallow draft barges.
Perhaps then we can debate whether to use LCAC's vs. Russian "Zubr" class hovercraft vs. car ferries ;)
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We should be able to agree that PACOM had the ability to get EDG's in there,...
All the C in C had to say was, "Make it so Number One",....
He didn't, and the buck stops there,....
Starting to pick up on your affection for Obama, but we will save that for PolySci.
I am just glad they are able to get the pumps working again and not seeing the situation get worse.
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While the article defines a very tight (and miss leading) objective to address, it totally misses the impacts of a failed MOX fuel cell that a reader might expect from the "American Nuclear Society". Now, what would that be?
At what point does Japan Prime Minster Fire these TEPCO clowns? What does it take? It looks like they wanted to quit and walk off the job two weeks ago, and their actions show conclusively they are no where near being up for the task at hand. The are using unqualified personnel for dangerous clean up and wasting the efforts the work force that is volunteering blindly following a sense of patriotic duty.
The PM should have accepted the resignation proposal from Fukushima NP and transitioned Emergency Response management to GE-Hitachi. Or Areva. Or ten random guys at the airport. There is no indication T+2 weeks into this that their is any leadership, management, or central control in place. What is the plan? Answer, there is no plan. You are looking at it.
A quick look under the hood of this TEPCO operation shows why: a history of coverups, bribes, forged maintenance inspections, parts failure, deaths, rad releases. And that is just what we know about with government officials and oversight in their back pocket.
TEPCO or PECO? For a point of reference, at TMI we would sample 40 ml of reactor coolant into shielded containers that would read close to 100 mr/hr. This was a year after the accident. The coolant had roughly the same Cs-137 as Sr-90, about 30 uc/ml if my old memory serves me correctly.
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100mr/hr at the sample or on the outside of the shielding?
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Helo in 2MW would be ridiculously easy.
The EDG is on a skid, made up of components. It would take me 2 hours to disassembly the skid, and 2-3 hours to reassemble. I would disassemble the skid even if I had a russian Miv 26 chopper so that I could easily move the power in position where I needed it.
The plant seemed to put too much into the running the cable. It seems to be a failure so far. The pumps are still being run by diesel generators (and where fire truck pumpers before that). Running those cables restricts where you tap into and exposed people to high rad. It might have been ok for a backup plan, but as the only plan it is a failure. Took too long. You need power before you can even trouble shoot the system. The fight doesn't even start until you have power. A break down in basic critical problem solving. Should have set the time constraint as 24 hours, that would have taken "pull the cable 2500 ft" off the table.
Getting all the power I need is the easy part of the problem. I figure 12 hours to located, stage, and line up resources. 12 hour to get the first 2MW for each plant available. 24 total. Then in a day or two I would not be power limited. The hard part would then start-trying to cobble together what works, what don't, get parts, fabricate, install, test. Of course, they get power in there within 24 hours they don't have high rad and explosion damage. They made a workable problem a complete disaster by failure to act. +5billion dollar clean up Fission products in the ocean. And 5GW off the grid that needs to be replaced.
I would rate getting power complexity as 1 star out of 5.
One 2000kw detroit diesel gen, skid mounted:
http://www.dieselgeneratorsmiami.com/generalpower/650-kw-to-2000-kw-diesel-generators/218/2000-kw-diesel-generator-2500-kva-60-hz-three-phase-sdmo-x2000uii-detroit-mtu-diesel-generator-open-skid-mounted-version.html
The diesel is 6 tons. (I can disassemble this to the crank/block if needed)
The generator is 4 tons. ( I can further separate the stator - rotor-if needed.)
The skid is 2-3 tons
The Exciter/controls/cooler is 2-3 tons.
Total is 15 tons.
Each medium lift chinook chopper is rated oh..10 tons. My weight limit is the diesel. Barely over 50% capacity.
Anyway, its better then TEPCO's "cops with water canon" plan that got rolled out after 8 days.
(http://www.dieselgeneratorsmiami.com/imagenes/tienda/thumbnails/X2000-12V_2_350x350.jpg)
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"Always with the negative waves, Moriarity, always with the negative waves." Oddball from Kelly's Heroes
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CNN is reporting today that radioactivity has been found in milk in 2 states.
When does this now get recognized as it should be: much more severe than TMI?
And when does the U.S. gov't get involved and say "you need to get this radiation leakage under wraps now, because it's travelling thousands of miles and contaminating our soil.....and we're more than 2 weeks after the fact."
Do we have any people over there working with the engineers?
Have they tried using robots to access highly radioactive areas to see if in fact there is a leak from the main containment? Seems to be a lot of guessing on their part from what I'm reading in spotty news reports.
I have a 10 month old daughter, so I don't want her getting anything any more contaminated than the natural environment :/
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Would that be this report?: http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/03/31/radiation.us/index.html?hpt=T2#
"Results from screening samples of milk taken in the past week in Spokane, Washington, and in San Luis Obispo County, California, detected radioactive iodine at a level 5,000 times lower than the limit set by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, officials said."
"This morning I spoke with the chief advisers for both the EPA and the FDA and they confirmed that these levels are miniscule and are far below levels of public health concern, including for infants and children," Gregoire said in a statement.
"According to them, a pint of milk at these levels would expose an individual to less radiation than would a five-hour airplane flight."
Take it all in context and it's not quite as alarming is it?
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Take it all in context and it's not quite as alarming is it?
[/quote]
Take it out of context and the virtues become vices, the vices become virtues and facts get cross-ways, side-ways, back-ways, etc..... Then the ignoramists are wiggin' out b/c they keep their face glued to the newspaper and listening to what the magic box has to say instead of researching it themselves.
Good post
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In context and QUANTIFIABLE information.
Tell me what the contamination levels are.
Tell me what the radiation levels are.
Tell me what specific damage has been sustained.
Breathless reporters babbling things like, "There could be a full meltdown and leaking radiation levels are ten billion times normal!" Nobody knows what that truly means, but it hypes the situation and gets viewers to sell advertisements and the media wheel keeps spinning. And what is the normal reading anyway? Ten billion times less than minimum detectable activity, is still less than MDA.
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Take it all in context and it's not quite as alarming is it?
Yes, but does that sell an anti-Nuke agenda or increase ratings for News outlets???
:-> [devious]
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Not choices I would like to make. Check out the interactive graphics tab.
**********************************
At the heart of the day's moves lies a calculated choice between bad and worse: To meet their goal of keeping reactors cool enough to forestall catastrophe, officials appear willing to risk letting some highly radioactive water spill out of vents that are positioned some 50 to 70 yards from the sea.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704471904576229854179642220.html
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No not really. With the C130 you can LAPES (Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Altitude_Parachute_Extraction_System). I'm not sure if they still do this. It has killed a number of crews due to the load not coming off the ship even with the parachute deployed.
No strip ... No problem.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/C130lapes.jpg)
Um, dude look at the pictures of the area around the plant... there is not sufficient space to do some LAPES kind of deal. Yes, they still do it. Though the preferable method is parachute from a higher altitude.
They Trucked the damn thing in, OK? It's the only way. Probably the same route they used to bring in the high voltage power lines.
To LM,
The MAX payload on the CH-47D is 21000 lbs, but it has about zero range at that point. In order to get sufficient range you have to reduce the payload. We use curves called Payload-Range curves to calculate this. At a range of about 20 miles, the payload is down to ~18000 lbs. So, unless your superwhamadyne plan involved breaking the payload up into multiple trips, your out of luck. Your claim of "it's just 50% above" max payload is, on it's face ludicrous. Aircraft aren't something you can just "go to 110%". If you are over weight BAD things happen.
Here's a video of an overloaded Russian Mil MI-14
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Um, dude look at the pictures of the area around the plant... there is not sufficient space to do some LAPES kind of deal. Yes, they still do it. Though the preferable method is parachute from a higher altitude.
They Trucked the damn thing in, OK? It's the only way. Probably the same route they used to bring in the high voltage power lines.
I don't recall making the advice of using a/c. Just offering a/c options and clarifications. A single helo would be a good choice but with the current issues that is really out of the question (range v payload due to position of carriers and bases).
A good alternative is a hoover craft.
But, just to let you know. They have tested Herc's on aircraft carriers.
Article on the testing of a C130 on an aircraft carrier. (http://www.military-heat.com/65/c130-hercules-deck-landing/)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/TolipM/RxecD1eNquI/AAAAAAAAAyM/1YFucyfjpA4/s800/forrestal%26c-130.jpg)
So if you have a road you have a strip of useable area for LAPES. Not that I am suggesting that is what should have been done.
[2cents]
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I was at Vogtle when that happened. Not as big a deal as they made it out to be. Truck going into the transformer yard to refuel the backup generator hit a transformer. Wackiness ensued. It was all over in a few hours. Most of us "essential" personnel stayed on site through the whole thing.
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Getting back on topic. Todays IAEA report out has surface contamination reports. Seems pretty bad in some areas, which I assume are closest to the plant.
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html
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Todays IAEA report out has surface contamination reports. Seems pretty bad in some areas, which I assume are closest to the plant.
What a shock!
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100mr/hr at the sample or on the outside of the shielding?
If I recall that was an unshielded reading. I don't remember any Hi-Rad control lugging that thing around in my pocket. Back pocket, of course.
In looking at the TEPCO own reports and Wiki, it appears they are doing simple GeLi analysis on contamination/sea water samples etc. One of the isotopes was Y-91, which means you have Sr-91. Now a nuclear accident is not going to produce Sr-91 without producing Sr-90. We have yet to hear about the Sr-90 isotope, which at TMI was produced in nearly the same abundance as Cs-137. I really don't think these people know what they are doing.
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yeah if puddles are reading 100 R I don't really need to know what the contamination levels are. WOW.
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I have only read about half of the postings on this topic, but I was going blind reading it on my I-pod. Can I ask some questions. It was reported the workers (heroes) did not have any way to take a shower. How do they de-contaminate?
Concerned about the ocean. If the contamination gets into the water and goes up the food chain, will this not increase the spread of the radiation, leading to the supposed killing of the ocean?
Regarding the farmers who are not leaving the area around the F plant, obviously they are concerned over their livestock, cows do need to be milked. Will these people be able to go out into the public, will they be a hazard to be around? This does not even address the animals and what will happen to them. I can't even wrap my mind around that. I am not a Nuke worker, live in a state without nuclear power plants, somewhat a tree hugger, but I believe Nuclear energy is necessary, I enjoy everything electricity brings me. Thank you for the info I have found on this site about this tragedy in Japan.
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More questions. Is it true that the ports have a lot of sunken ships and nothing could be delivered that way anyway, and the shore infrastructure is destroyed as well.
All of this water that is running off or accumulating in tunnels, how is that water decontaminated?.
Are any of you taking any precautions here in the good ole USA, are you eating the veggies and fruits from California, are you walking in the rain?
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Concerned about the ocean. If the contamination gets into the water and goes up the food chain, will this not increase the spread of the radiation, leading to the supposed killing of the ocean?
If this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Castle_Bravo_Blast.jpg didn't kill the ocean, what is happening in Japan won't either.
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Are any of you taking any precautions here in the good ole USA, are you eating the veggies and fruits from California, are you walking in the rain?
No. Nor should anyone be bothering to. The reported levels in the US are barely detectable, and certainly not a cause for alarm.
As for walking in the rain. I live in Seattle... we can't avoid it.
You should be more worried about the Mercury spewed out by Coal fired power plants, not to mention the Sulfur compounds that lead to acid rain.
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Hey PlaysWithAirplanes,
Don't forget the mercury from compact fluorescent bulbs as well - the horror! :o
My incandescent bulb turned off consumes less mc-squared than their CFs do when they're on.
PJ
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Good web site for information on plumes and dose rates. It has links to other sites:
http://ppalme.wordpress.com/2011/03/14/list-of-radiation-radioactive-nuclear-fallout-monitoring-websites/ (http://ppalme.wordpress.com/2011/03/14/list-of-radiation-radioactive-nuclear-fallout-monitoring-websites/)
It links to TEPCO which puts out dose rates:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/monitoring/11040105a.pdf (http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/monitoring/11040105a.pdf)
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are you eating the veggies and fruits from California?
The cannibalistic lifestyle is not for me...but, if it helps reduce the population of Kalifornia I may reconsider...
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CNN is reporting today that radioactivity has been found in milk in 2 states.
When does this now get recognized as it should be: much more severe than TMI?
1. And when does the U.S. gov't get involved and say "you need to get this radiation leakage under wraps now, because it's travelling thousands of miles and contaminating our soil.....and we're more than 2 weeks after the fact."
Do we have any people over there working with the engineers?
Have they tried using robots to access highly radioactive areas to see if in fact there is a leak from the main containment? Seems to be a lot of guessing on their part from what I'm reading in spotty news reports.
2.I have a 10 month old daughter, so I don't want her getting anything any more contaminated than the natural environment :/
1. Google " TVA coal pile " for downstream health hazards
2. She is at more risk from the thimerosol in all the "mandatory" immunizations, including Gardasil. Also note less incidence of alzheimer's in countries where flouridation of tap water isn't done.
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Been following this forum for a couple years, but just decided to join....
A question for folks closer to the industry than I. Suppose you were sent back in time 1 year or so. Your job is to provide information that there would be an earthquake and tsunami somewhere in the world that would cause a serious nuclear accident. You contact the US NRC, IAEA, TEPCO, GE, and whoever else has a pile of engineers that could develop procedures. You identify the equipment as GE-4, Mark I containment, and lay out the challenges related to the station blackout, keeping the core cool, hydrogen buildup and explosion, loss of secondary containment, sfp issues, etc.... You're not allowed to give the location of the plant to preclude shutting it down before the earthquake. Knowing the outcome, is there anything that could have been done differently as soon as the earthquake hit?
Many pages ago, someone tossed out the idea of bootstrapping the generator off residual steam. Is this something feasable, or just a "wouldn't it be nice if" Along those lines, how about a limited restart of one unit after the trip to "back up" the EDG's. What about running the HPCI turbine with the turbine exhaust routed to the atmosphere instead of the supression pool. Obviously a release, but would the tradeoff of being able to keep the core cool and suppression pool sub-saturated longer have improved the long term situation? Am I correct in assuming that if the core remained intact there wouldn't be any issues with hydrogen or containment integrity?
It looks as if the plant operators followed accepted procedures early in the situation. When working with a complex system like a nuclear power plant, you need to stay with proven, established procedures. I'm not suggesting that anyone should have responded differently to the situation, just looking to see if a better outcome could be provided if a similar situation is encountered in the future. My research suggests that earlier designs like the GE-4 have a great deal of their core damage frequency estimate attributed to station blackout events. How does that look going forward?
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Cellman...I found your question interesting. Here's a similar question:
Let's say an intelligent, influential congressman managed to get a bill passed that required all pilot compartments on commercial airlines to have a security door installed and in use by September 10, 2001.
I know, the idea of an intelligent, influential congressman is a bit farfetched.
I have found it interesting that many users of this particular post found it incredulous in the early days that the Japanese reactors might actually "melt"...hmmm, as if reactor safety was never a cog in their intellectual wheel. We even had nuclear educated (an assumption of course) folks that thought approaching a drained fuel pool would actually be possible. Perhaps they have noticed that we indeed have fuel failure...denial is not just a river in Egypt.
I also found it interesting that the very first post came to pass...we actually did "ship coolant to Japan"
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Ok I will indulge this silly post with one comment.
The reason everybody found it silly that people were talking about sending coolant is because calling it coolant is silly. It is just water. As for the rest of your post this explains why the rest of the world and media get so riled up over the possibility of any problem with nuclear power. 18000 dead due to Equake and Tsunami this one time, how many dead in the last 40 years due to the COMMERCIAL USE of nuclear power in the western world???
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Interesting to note that one of the world's largest concrete pumps is being sent from savannah river to Daiichi, along with several others made by Putzmeister (is that the correct german company?), with the intent of pumping more water in.
More water? Could this just be a cover story for their actual intended purpose of pumping concrete? They have pumps run by EDG's right now, right? Feeding water to the reactors via various means.
CNN just shared a story where they just filled a conduit tunnel with a special polymer blend with newspaper and something else to stop the water leaking into the ocean. But they don't know the source of the highly radioactive leak, yet.
I dunno. I just think that the more time goes on, the more they realize there's other damage they didn't notice earlier due to other more critical issues. This is a big, big mess.
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I wouldn't think you'ld need to cover up pumping in cement. Whatever is the right answer just do it water or cement. They could use these pumps later for cement, that may be a bonus reason for gettting them. TEPCO already said we won't be using these reactors anymore, so who cares how we make them safe? Pouring cement over decaying fuel could insulate them from cooling water and cause them to catch on fire depending on how old they are. Maybe they could use some cement in another area to plug up a hole somewhere, but why would this be a big deal to hide it? Tepco like to hide things as we all know so maybe they will try to hide it, but I see no reason to here. Hard to hide a mega cement pourer from the world though so I don't think so.
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On the Putzmeister pumps: My understanding is that there are only 3 in the whole world. Two are headed for Japan, one from SRS, another from California. They are being refitted to pump water instead of concrete. They are too big for conventional transports. A special Russian made transport plane is being used to fly them to Japan. Liberal talking head Rachel Maddow did a piece on this the other night. She sited the Augusta Chronicle as her source.
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Local news did a story about Peach Bottom. Nice to see some news trying to get facts instead of succumbing to gonzo journalism.
http://www.abc27.com/Global/story.asp?S=14368058
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Cellman...I found your question interesting. Here's a similar question:
Let's say an intelligent, influential congressman managed to get a bill passed that required all pilot compartments on commercial airlines to have a security door installed and in use by September 10, 2001.
I know, the idea of an intelligent, influential congressman is a bit farfetched.
I have found it interesting that many users of this particular post found it incredulous in the early days that the Japanese reactors might actually "melt"...hmmm, as if reactor safety was never a cog in their intellectual wheel. We even had nuclear educated (an assumption of course) folks that thought approaching a drained fuel pool would actually be possible. Perhaps they have noticed that we indeed have fuel failure...denial is not just a river in Egypt.
I also found it interesting that the very first post came to pass...we actually did "ship coolant to Japan"
You can "what if" and "how come" all day. The necessity for certain things comes as an after thought. Reverse engineering is how the nuclear community works. Theres only so much foresight we can have. None of us here have gone through an 8.9 earthquake combined with a shattered infrastructure all the while keeping a plant in some modicum of safety. Containment was never needed because we had highly skilled operators working on highly technical safety equipment that could never break down. We also had a giant boat that could never sink. We had submarines that were put together by safe and skilled laborers that have been doing there job for many many years.
The point is, we dont know until we see it first hand. We can speculate on things that COULD happen all day. Then we're getting into the realm of the incredulous, and cost will begin to be a factor. Sure, we can design some super plant that can withstand an F5 tornado, a 9.9 richter scale, full area flooding, and catastrophic terrorist events, but where do we draw the line?
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To follow up Charlie's great post, I must say that in order to make things as close to indestructible and failure proof as possible, we must first learn from past failures to understand what caused the failure and what must be improved and how.
Anyone who feels that we can design something for the uninevitable every time needs to read a book called "To Engineer is Human" by Henry Petroski. Petroski is a civil engineer who explains the role failure plays in successful designs. We have to learn from past mistakes to further improve on what we currently have. We must also understand as Charlie mentioned that Economics plays a LARGE role in the engineering world.
Nuclear plants are EXPENSIVE machines and saving money is important to the utility so that the construction is not a loss on their part. Safety should never be compromised and I don't feel it ever has in the design and construction of Nuclear power plants in the U.S. or Japan. But Engineers can't put some outrageous margin of safety figure out there and conclude that it will withstand the inevitable and that it will be attainable with the budget of the project. Engineers have to find the "middle ground" where practical engineering safety standards are met and a large enough safety factor will cover enough of the "worst case scenarios".
Japan just had a record-breaking earthquake and tsunami hit them that is a once in a lifetime event. We can't discount the magnitude of this disaster and analyze how the Fukushima plant contained "flaws". These are the flaws that we will learn from and improve on in existing plants as well as new plants to be built in the near future. We must learn from our mistakes. Looking back on history of Commercial Nuclear Power, I don't think the record is bad at all.
Look at statistics. A lot more people die from drunk driving accidents each year then they do from nuclear power reactors. So why does the media make such a big deal about the safety of nuclear power plants when the numbers are on the table?
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I suppose if a comet hit the site, the question would be, "Why did the engineers not consider this contingency in their design?"
I know one thing for sure, and that is virtually every large airplane that has a "station blackout" results in the death of everyone aboard.
I still fly.
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Local news did a story about Peach Bottom. Nice to see some news trying to get facts instead of succumbing to gonzo journalism.
http://www.abc27.com/Global/story.asp?S=14368058
Wheres the article mentioned? "This comes after an Associated Press article that claimed a power outage could lead to a partial meltdown."
Sounds like someone is playing jump to conclusions!
(http://douglasernstylp.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/office_space.jpg)
*I am talking about the article mentioned in the one Justin posted, not his CM :stupidme:
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Wheres the article mentioned? "This comes after an Associated Press article that claimed a power outage could lead to a partial meltdown."
Sounds like someone is playing jump to conclusions!
(http://douglasernstylp.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/office_space.jpg)
Sounds like you are. Justin posted it up earlier....
this is for you :
drayer (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=associated+press+peach+bottom)
Justin your simulator is WAY nicer then ours haha :D are you guys doing a power upgrade??? 1.3 billion is a lot of hooch ;)
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I try to live by Marlin's rules, CM. 8)
Anyway, CM, I don't work there anymore but they are just about "power uprated" out. There may be a new FW heater or two in the future, but that is about it. And, that 1.3 billion is to be spent over the entire fleet. Yes, they are building essentially a whole new plant with all the power uprates across the fleet for 1/6th of the cost. When all is said and done, they will have about 1000MWs of new capacity.
Justin
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I try to live by Marlin's rules, CM. 8)
I wish I followed my own advice more. [coffee]
Maybe I just like to hear myself type. :P
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Sometimes I slip myself, but when someone posts such as that above, it is easy to remember them. :)
Justin
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I wish I followed my own advice more. [coffee]
Maybe I just like to hear myself type. :P
Dont you mean "hype".
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Dont you mean "hype".
Mom always liked me best. 8)
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I try to live by Marlin's rules, CM. 8)
Anyway, CM, I don't work there anymore but they are just about "power uprated" out. There may be a new FW heater or two in the future, but that is about it. And, that 1.3 billion is to be spent over the entire fleet. Yes, they are building essentially a whole new plant with all the power uprates across the fleet for 1/6th of the cost. When all is said and done, they will have about 1000MWs of new capacity.
Justin
key words here ;) good upgrades though, too bad a lot of those plants wont get more then 20 years out of it.
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key words here ;) good upgrades though, too bad a lot of those plants wont get more then 20 years out of it.
Not necessarily true. They are doing this in order to be able to get another 20 year extension, when the time comes, for a total of 80 years online.
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http://www.epa.gov/japan2011/
Good thing I got my tin suit and hat on. I have also stopped collecting rain water for post apocalyptic living for the time being. 8)
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Not necessarily true. They are doing this in order to be able to get another 20 year extension, when the time comes, for a total of 80 years online.
Lets hope so, with the amount being dumped in, would seem to be a shame to "Waste" those upgrades. Im sure the number crunchers and engineers have a good idea of whats going on anyway. Just curious how the RE-RE-licensing thing works lol...
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anybody hear of any contract companies hiring yet (Rad Techs) to go to Japan?
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I try to live by Marlin's rules, CM. 8)
Justin
I wish I followed my own advice more. [coffee]
Maybe I just like to hear myself type. :P
Sometimes I slip myself, but when someone posts such as that above, it is easy to remember them. :) Justin
JMO - JH you are trying to respond to a pair of newbies that have an opinion on everything and want to argue everything, even when they are talking apples and oranges.
Remember Marlins Rules! ;D And then every now and then throw a [Flamer]!
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anybody hear of any contract companies hiring yet (Rad Techs) to go to Japan?
http://www.nukeworker.com/job/job/japan---immediate-need-sr.-rct-and-sr.hp/14254/
Go get'em tiger.
Also read Teco is hiring "jumpers" at $5K a day.
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I have sat back for a while now watching this thread develop and devolve, but have yet to see a discussion on #3 SFP...? Although the NYT recently mentioned it in passing- that some material from the explosions could be up to a mile away, they weren't too specific. It would appear that the area where it used to reside doesn't exist anymore... Anyone else find this weird?
Side note- I found the discussion at ars technica forum to be quite interesting...
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1139141&sid=b4a0c0af3bb3156d0fe6d2f8aa979703&start=2280
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Looking at the current hi-res pictures, unit 3 refuel floor is somewhat intact at the floor level, so the explosion appears to have affected only the refuel floor and not the spent fuel pool itself. You can see the drop down area, which is wide open, and the rest of the floor structure seems to be intact. Sure, the refuel bridge and all of the other miscellaneous materials are gone, but the spent fuel appears to still be in the pool.
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NRC Reactor Safety Team's assessment. It's a week old but still pretty interesting...
http://cryptome.org/0003/daiichi-assess.pdf
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Well, they don't tell you that on the news. Thanks for that link. Don't see how the explosion could have ejected parts, but it is what it is.
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CNN just reported a magnitude 7.1 quake near the Miyagi prefecture.
They also reported (can't validate) the Daiichi plant is being evacuated because of the quake.
Hopefully this is just precautionary and systems are still functioning......but who knows.
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CNN just reported a magnitude 7.1 quake near the Miyagi prefecture.
They also reported (can't validate) the Daiichi plant is being evacuated because of the quake.
Hopefully this is just precautionary and systems are still functioning......but who knows.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/07/japan.quake/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
http://www.npr.org/2011/04/07/135206877/major-earthquake-hits-off-japans-coast?sc=fb&cc=fp
Looks like they just got a scare. But still, can't they get a break???
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Aftershocks will probably go on for months. Given the magnitude 9.0 of the initial quake, the aftershocks are going to be pretty massive quakes in and of themselves. It's not a new phenomena, but yea... pretty much sucks. I hope that the recovery at the plant is unaffected. The good news is there doesn't seem to be any tsunami associated with this aftershock. The tsunami is really what did the vast majority of the damage (not just to the plant).
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Fukushima tsunami now estimated at 48 feet. One of the plant employees got it on video.
http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/04/09/unavoidable-disaster-watch-the-tsunami-wave-crash-into-the-fukushima-power-plant/?xid=rss-world-huffpo
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Aftershocks will probably go on for months. Given the magnitude 9.0 of the initial quake, the aftershocks are going to be pretty massive quakes in and of themselves.
What really qualifies as an aftershock? I mean to me a 7.1 quake a few weeks later is what I would concider another earthquake. I am not a geologist nor do I study geology, but doesn't that make sense to you? Just curious.
-Doc
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My understanding is that a quake is caused when plates move. An aftershock is caused by the "settling" of the plates into a stable condition.
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The new ranking signifies a "major accident" with "wider consequences" than the previous level, according to the Vienna-based IAEA.
"We have upgraded the severity level to 7 as the impact of radiation leaks has been widespread from the air, vegetables, tap water and the ocean," said Minoru Oogoda of Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.
"The announcement is being made now because it became possible to look at and check the accumulated data assessed in two different ways," he said, referring to measurements from NISA and the Nuclear Security Council.
But what the public needs to make clear is that.
Nishiyama noted that unlike in Chernobyl there have been no explosions of reactor cores at the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant, although there were hydrogen explosions.
"In that sense, this situation is totally different from Chernobyl," he said.
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"But what the public needs to make clear is that" ... 15 yard penalty!
I wish these guys would stop comparing it to Chernobyl - trying to make their situation seem better than it really is. The ONLY thing that's positive is the apparent lack of deaths caused or immediate deaths anyways. I say apparent cause many workers didn't have proper dosimetry and therefore who knows their accumulated dose? Also, the cleanup for this situation is more complex and I doubt anyone who's followed the situation closely thinks their total release will be less than Chernobyl. Amazingly enough, their biggest helper has been the ocean... dilution is the solution!
I digress. Here's an amazing set of pictures of #3 and #4 reactor buildings for you all.
http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/fukushima.html
**Edit: removed "half a brain" and replaced with "who's followed the situation closely". That was inappropriate and unnecessary.
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"But what the public needs to make clear is that" ... 15 yard penalty!
I wish these guys would stop comparing it to Chernobyl - trying to make their situation seem better than it really is. The ONLY thing that's positive is the apparent lack of deaths caused or immediate deaths anyways. I say apparent cause many workers didn't have proper dosimetry and therefore who knows their accumulated dose? Also, the clean-up for this situation is more complex and I doubt anyone with half a brain thinks their total release will be less than Chernobyl. Amazingly enough, their biggest helper has been the ocean... dilution is the solution!
I digress. Here's an amazing set of pictures of #3 and #4 reactor buildings for you all.
http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/fukushima.html
And you are basing these seemingly subjective, opinionated statements on????
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"But what the public needs to make clear is that" ... 15 yard penalty!
I wish these guys would stop comparing it to Chernobyl - trying to make their situation seem better than it really is. The ONLY thing that's positive is the apparent lack of deaths caused or immediate deaths anyways. I say apparent cause many workers didn't have proper dosimetry and therefore who knows their accumulated dose? Also, the cleanup for this situation is more complex and I doubt anyone who's followed the situation closely thinks their total release will be less than Chernobyl. Amazingly enough, their biggest helper has been the ocean... dilution is the solution!
I digress. Here's an amazing set of pictures of #3 and #4 reactor buildings for you all.
http://www.houseoffoust.com/fukushima/fukushima.html
**Edit: removed "half a brain" and replaced with "who's followed the situation closely". That was inappropriate and unnecessary.
Too late.
Japan ups nuke crisis severity to match Chernobyl (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20110412/D9MI2HB00.html)
and this
Japan Raises Nuclear Crisis to Same Level as Chernobyl (http://www.cnbc.com/id/42542704)
and this
Slight amounts of strontium found near crippled Japan nuclear (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/slight-amounts-strontium-found-near-crippled-japan-nuclear-20110412-041822-802.html)
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Yep, I knew when I heard about this on the radio this morning that the idiots in the press would make this situation to be now the SAME as Chernobyl, both in magnitude and impact. Now there will be even more stupid statements, and the press will create more hysteria (all in the name of selling more ad space and making more money, no doubt).
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IMO, this "level" system for nuclear accidents is as useless as the Homeland Security threat levels. It provides no real value except to confuse and scare the general public.
So it is now a level 7... so what? It is a meaningless label as the actions to combat and consquences of the accident don't change.
-C
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The Japanese situation is bad, but not even close to chernobyl. people were kicking pieces of the reactor core back into the reactor building for god sakes at chernobyl. assign whatever level you want to it but really nasty things happened to alot of people at chernobyl because of the immediate release of a large amount of radiation right after the reactor was critical with no containment building. this didn't happen in japan and can't because the japanese reactors didn't explode, they have containment, and they slowed the release of the radiation by cooling the fuel for as long as they could. plus people were evacuated in Japan and TEPCO has been better than USSR at telling people to get away. Even though TEPCO could have shared more info, they did way better than the USSR did.
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Well, at least one media organization is not hyperventilating about it. The Christian Science Monitor.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0412/How-can-Fukushima-crisis-be-rated-as-severe-as-Chernobyl
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I would say the Sr-90 was there from the initial release. The article didn't say where or when the samples were taken and at what levels the Sr-90 is at. The severity of the accident was classified separately for each unit. When they combined the curie content of the releases of units 1,2, and 3 (each given a 5 rating previously) they totaled a 7. Perhaps this was done to trigger certain relief and aid available. Unit 4 still has a separte classification of 3. Depending on the source, I have seen the release been stated as 10%, 40% and >100% of Chernobyl. Certainly with fuel from 3 reactors and over a 1,000 spent rods in a fuel pool, the potential release is greater than Chernobyl.
In comparing accidents, it is like comparing apples and oranges. Yes people died at Chernobyl, but how much of the countryside and nation's econmy did it effect? The Soviet military came in, shot all the pets and herded people into buses. Stay away. Area isolated.
In Japan they have contaminated part of their "bread basket." Farm lands can not be used. Factories in the US have been shut down. Fishing waters can not be used. Massive amounts of radioactivity is being dumped into the ocean. 400,000 gallons of waste water is generated per day and they don't have anywhere to put it all. The units are in continuous release. They are still trying to get the accident under control after a month. Japan was "fortunate" because people left due to the tsunami.
Nuclear power: We are safe for all the accidents we plan for.
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Thanks Guys and Gals for keeping some form of sanity to this discussion. I've been following the problems in Japan since the start and here is the only place I've found reasonable discussion of the severity of whats happening in Japan. Keep up the good work and keep the trolls in their dark uneducated holes.
Thanks again,
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Thanks Guys and Gals for keeping some form of sanity to this discussion. I've been following the problems in Japan since the start and here is the only place I've found reasonable discussion of the severity of whats happening in Japan. Keep up the good work and keep the trolls in their dark uneducated holes.
Thanks again,
welcome! :)
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Plutone ... You are a boob. I don't care to waste more time or words on you than that.
Floyd "Hairdude" Flanigan
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We are no longer seeing I-131 in our air samples here in Northern CA.
The problem with all of this is that we have the ability to look for atoms (E -14). Because the MDA is so freaking low, we can't just say <MDA. Once you make results available to the public that don't say <MDA, they don't understand anything else...they just get freaked out that we can see anything at all.
I went on a small campaign to enlighten non-nuke folks about the misinformation the media was spreading. It was received very well by many, but I was also called a "Liar for the industry" many times by others. It is shamefull how the media has handled all of this.
Shamelessly stolen from another thread discussing I131 from Japan. I understand being apprehensive & even scared of something we haven't ever experienced before. There is no denying that this is major. There is also no denying that we can & will learn from it.
You've come to a great place to get TRUE answers to your questions & concerns. What you do with that truth and how it gets retold is what I look forward to hearing in the future. Please let us know when it does, OK?
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Okay. Can we get back on topic here?
I'm one of those noobs who genuinely want to learn more about what's going on at Daiichi. I'm not here to argue for or against nuclear power. Honestly, I'm for it, but I know enough to know I don't know anything in terms of forming a logical argument for or against it.
Gracias!
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Okay. Can we get back on topic here?
I'm one of those noobs who genuinely want to learn more about what's going on at Daiichi. I'm not here to argue for or against nuclear power. Honestly, I'm for it, but I know enough to know I don't know anything in terms of forming a logical argument for or against it.
Gracias!
Not a lot new there but here is an article on comparison of Fukishima to Chernobyl:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/12/us-japan-fukushima-idUSTRE73B1RH20110412
I noted that the lead in (Reuters) - "Japan on Tuesday raised the severity level of its nuclear crisis to put it on par with the 1986 Chernobyl accident, the world's worst nuclear power disaster." does not match the body of the text "Fukushima has its own unique risks, but comparing it to Chernobyl is going too far. Fukushima is unlikely to have the kind of impact on the health of people in neighboring countries, the way Chernobyl did," said nuclear specialist Kenji Sumita at Osaka University.". This seems to be an ongoing media slant on almost all news outlets to sell the story.
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I would like a moderator to remove all posts not directly related to "Japan's Nukes Following Earthquake", and kindly put them in their own topic.
Just finished you can open them up. 8)
New topic is: Pointed questions for nuclear enthusiasts and careerists (http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,27318.0.html)
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Just read about the robot results from units 1 and 3. 4.9 R/hr and 5.7 R/hr. Not surprising, considering the known fuel damage, but the results don't say where, if it is an average or hot spot. Anyone have anything else on this?
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/04/17/japanese-government-disaster-plan/?test=latestnews
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By the way you are still a psuedo intellectual troll your post here is just more proof of that.
Name calling is still exceeding serious answers 10 to 1.
1) Will Fukushima #5 and 6 ever operate again?
2) Ballpark estimates of total cost of Fukushima, including loss of investment, remediation, evacuation, interuption of business claims, real estate and food production losses?
3) Do similar reactors in US have backup power to their SFPs? (I get conflicting opinions on this).
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I would have to believe that the spent fuel pools are supplied by the safety-related busses. Can someone verify this for me?
That would be the busses that were being supplied by the diesel generators at Fukushima until the tsunami hit and knocked them offline.
In my plant, the service water system provides cooling to the spent fuel pool heat exchangers.. the SW pumps and spent fuel pool pumps are safeguards equipment, and on protected busses, powered by the diesels like you said. edit: However, i believe the SFP pumps are initially "stripped" off the safeguards busses, as it typically takes a number of days before SFP heat is a pressing issue. That gives the Ops team time to restore offsite power, or re-fuel the diesel tanks, etc.. Of course, having an entire core offloaded into your SFP for refueling or inspection changes that a little (like in one of the Fukushima units).
I wonder if the tsunami physically took out both trains of the diesel generators themselves at fukushima (if they even have separate trains??), or if the wave simply took out the fuel tanks, effectively disabling both? (or all of the above?).. In any case, losing emergency backup power is bad.. No SI, no aux feed (pwr of course), no spent fuel cooling, no RHR for RCS cooling... Everything was going well after the earthquake. The other plant (Daichi?), which was only a few miles from the epicenter (much closer than the fukushima plants) shut itself down just fine.. It was definitely the wave that did fukushima in. It will be interesting to see what new system enhancements/recommendations/requirements come out of this event for U.S. plants.
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From what I have gathered is TEPCO is using military grade robots from iRobot in Bedford MA and robots from Mitsui Engineering from Japan. The Mitsui robot can be remote operated from as far as a kilometer away with a 3D thermographic camera. The main purpose of iRobots err robot is explosive ordinance disposal. Only one iRobot from Ma is fitted with the capabilties of detecting radiation.
RW
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Quote from: plutone on Yesterday at 21:47
1) Will Fukushima #5 and 6 ever operate again?
2) Ballpark estimates of total cost of Fukushima, including loss of investment, remediation, evacuation, interuption of business claims, real estate and food production losses?
3) Do similar reactors in US have backup power to their SFPs? (I get conflicting opinions on this).
1. If the future dose rates from 1-4 don't prevent it, and the tsunami replacement costs don't approach the cost of constructing new generation, then I would say yes, as they need the power. The geography of 5 & 6 has proven that it does not suffer the same kind of common mode failure with waves as 1-4.
2. US financial firms have estimated this based on the current roadmap TEPCO has laid out ($24 billion) and a worst-case ($130 billion)
3. Yes spent fuel pool cooling has power availability from emergency electrical, which has redundant sources. Unfortunately all the redundancy went away with the the 45 ft wave and sustained flood. Emergency diesel generators are in Class 1E seismic/flood qualified structures, and so are a few days supply for fuel for each and all their respective cooling water pumps. But, I suspect the impact of the wave knocked out the cooling pump structure, which would've tripped the emergency diesel generators very shortly thereafter. Saturation of all the electrical cable runs and components by the sustained flooding probably then put them in this situation of slowly restoring or replacing all the wetted equipment.
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I did see a picture on line of a robot going into what wass described as the reactor building. It was through a hinged door. Those dose rates are well within human working levels if you have a 25 REM/ yr limit.
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these photos --> http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp10/daiichi-photos10.htm
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Areva and Veolia Water to decontaminate water at Fukushima Nuclear station.
http://nuclearstreet.com/nuclear_power_industry_news/b/nuclear_power_news/archive/2011/04/20/areva-and-veolia-water-to-decontaminate-water-at-fukushima-nuclear-station-042003.aspx
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Here are a couple of links about robots being used at Fukishima:
From a Japanese news outlet (includes video of robot at work)
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/video/
Robotic Aerial Vehicle Captures Footage of Fukushima Reactors
http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-robots/robotic-aerial-vehicle-at-fukushima-reactors
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Robotic Aerial Vehicle Captures Footage of Fukushima Reactors
Must see pictures! Wow, talk about bad timing. Earthquake and tsunami hits during refueling outage.
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Here are a couple of links about robots being used at Fukishima:
From a Japanese news outlet (includes vidoe of robot at work)
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/video/
Robotic Aerial Vehicle Captures Footage of Fukushima Reactors
http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-robots/robotic-aerial-vehicle-at-fukushima-reactors
Cool photos. I wish I had this Karma thing figured out, I would toss some your way. Even after an earthquake and melting the bejesus out of the core, the reactor building still looks cleaner than PB and the dose rates are less than OYC. Time to crank that baby up.
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Cool photos. I wish I had this Karma thing figured out, I would toss some your way. Even after an earthquake and melting the bejesus out of the core, the reactor building still looks cleaner than PB and the dose rates are less than OYC. Time to crank that baby up.
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Summary of reactor status.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/53554592/Table-Summary-of-Reactor-Unit-Status-at-21-April-0700-UTC
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I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.
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I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.
Yeah Yeah .. Yadda Yadda Yadda .. My goodness do you write with this many fallacies at work? If so, I can then understand why you would want to be anonymous.
Try using less logic fallacies (http://jerz.setonhill.edu/writing/argument/fallacies.html#List) in the future for better results. Thanks in advance your hin'nass.
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I try to be anonymous, but damn if everybody doesn't know who I am.
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I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.
Why are you here then? You have done nothing but spread discord and grief with your presence. In my response now, I am letting you win, but only because I choose to do so. If its so "useless", then 1) do something and fix it or 2) shut up/leave. Its pretty simple and everyone wins with whichever choice you decide, unless you go for the hidden option 3) ignore everyone, and continue this holier-then-though ranting which has absolutely nothing to do with topics at hand.
that said, I implore people to ignore any more ignoramus responses from you until you decide to actually fight against your proclivity to be annoying/nuisance.
My 2 cents, but I feel Im throwing out nickels and dimes instead of pennies.
Mac -> you're implying there's any logic in his statements kind sir.
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I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.
What color is your Cape and Mask............. [OT] [OT] [OT] [OT] [OT] [OT]
RG
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Marlin's wrestling with pigs quote keeps coming to mind...glad to see that you are all passionate about something...even if it is misdirected.
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Marlin's wrestling with pigs quote keeps coming to mind...glad to see that you are all passionate about something...even if it is misdirected.
(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/30/lake_nobody_cares.jpg) (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=3081)
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I have been on nukeworker for almost 10 years and have been in the nuclear industry since most of you were born....RealityCheck is not my first moniker...my position/work does not allow me to be anything but anonymous...nukeworker has allowed the moderators to delete posts based on their personal position...this forum, which was once considered useful, has became useless...and the product of myopic minds.
I think they are just jealous of your avatar. At 65 your position should be "retired."
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I think they are just jealous of your avatar. At 65 your position should be "retired."
Watch what you're saying youngster, some of us are still feeling young and working well past 65! [dowave]
Then again, others should have gone down that road much earlier! [dowave]
:-> Since 'realitycheck' probably meant to say "before" instead of "since", since employment in the field yesterday would qualify as being in the field since all posters were born.
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Yeah, I agree...must be the avatar...smart and good looking...how much farther do I have to go to get the record for negative karma? Oh wow, it looks like plutone has me on the negative karma....here I come buddy, you will not beat me and that's final! It looks like only the moRons that have shelled out nukeworker cash have the ability to dispense Karma...hmm, how to dis them all simultaneously...a solution forthcoming. Odd, I used to imagine positive karma as the goal...I challenge you all to smite me with your karma wand!!! MoRons, all of you...
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Yeah, I agree...must be the avatar...smart and good looking...how much farther do I have to go to get the record for negative karma? Oh wow, it looks like plutone has me on the negative karma....here I come buddy, you will not beat me and that's final! It looks like only the moRons that have shelled out nukeworker cash have the ability to dispense Karma...hmm, how to dis them all simultaneously...a solution forthcoming. Odd, I used to imagine positive karma as the goal...I challenge you all to smite me with your karma wand!!! MoRons, all of you...
You have a long long long long way to go to even catch up to me, much less hydro dave haha.
HydroDave63 - 590
Dave Warren - 483
Charlie Murphy - 378
darkmatter - 252
MeterSwangin - 233
I dont think you are going to get smited too much more, you're really not worth the time. In fact, I have no idea why Im entertaining you to begin with. Theres one easy way to get -karma, but thats my trade secret ;)
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RC, -10...Glad to help a Brother out!
Odd, I used to imagine positive karma as the goal.
Once a Goal is Unachievable, one must lower their standards..... ;)
Just one of the moRons......RG! [dunce]
PS: Dave has always been a trend setter!
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Yeah, I agree...must be the avatar...smart and good looking...how much farther do I have to go to get the record for negative karma? Oh wow, it looks like plutone has me on the negative karma....here I come buddy, you will not beat me and that's final! It looks like only the moRons that have shelled out nukeworker cash have the ability to dispense Karma...hmm, how to dis them all simultaneously...a solution forthcoming. Odd, I used to imagine positive karma as the goal...I challenge you all to smite me with your karma wand!!! MoRons, all of you...
Without revealing too much, I believe I held that record in a former life. At least 4 figures. moo!
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I came across this article regarding a postulated BWR station blackout. http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1981/3445600211884.pdf. In my limited understanding of the finer points of nuclear power, is this a fairly accurate description of the early stages of the Fukushima incident? Granted they flooded the drywell before the core went through the floor, and it seems that Fukushima lasted longer on/after batteries than the projection indicated. The report shows the two most likely failure points of containment as a rupture of the torus, and the electrical penetration seal. Its been reported that the torus may have cracked at unit 2. Also, do you think the reports of contaminated water in an electrical trench would be consistant with a failure of the drywell electrical penetration seal?
An additional question. In the earlier pages of this post, many of you have indicated that HPCI and RCIC can be operated manually once the batteries are exhausted. The report indicates those functions being lost once the batteries go below 200 volts. Can you help us understand some of the technical details?
Thanks again to the industry professionals on this board. Nuclear power has been an interest of mine for a long time, and I appreciate the time and energy you have given to enlighten the rest of us!
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sell crazy someplace else realitycheck. you only look at what you want to see.
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I came across this article regarding a postulated BWR station blackout. http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1981/3445600211884.pdf. In my limited understanding of the finer points of nuclear power, is this a fairly accurate description of the early stages of the Fukushima incident? Granted they flooded the drywell before the core went through the floor, and it seems that Fukushima lasted longer on/after batteries than the projection indicated. The report shows the two most likely failure points of containment as a rupture of the torus, and the electrical penetration seal. Its been reported that the torus may have cracked at unit 2. Also, do you think the reports of contaminated water in an electrical trench would be consistant with a failure of the drywell electrical penetration seal?
An additional question. In the earlier pages of this post, many of you have indicated that HPCI and RCIC can be operated manually once the batteries are exhausted. The report indicates those functions being lost once the batteries go below 200 volts. Can you help us understand some of the technical details?
Thanks again to the industry professionals on this board. Nuclear power has been an interest of mine for a long time, and I appreciate the time and energy you have given to enlighten the rest of us!
There is no evidence thus far that the failed fuel breached the reactor vessels in any of the Fukushima reactors. You would be looking at reactor vessel-to-primary containment pressure equalization and very high bottom head temperatures (what is referred to as “core breach signature”).
There is indication that primary containment ruptured in Unit 2. The station blackout analysis you referenced assumes that it would have ruptured due to eventual overpressurization due to loss of containment cooling systems (all AC-powered); however in the case of Fukushima it was due to an internal hydrogen detonation . BWR/4s now have a primary containment vent capability that can be used to avoid the former. Unfortunately without AC power, hydrogen mitigation is difficult; it can be tough to vent all the hydrogen out without the nitrogen dilution system available to help purge it (again, AC-powered), and unfortunately for Fukushima, their vent system went directly to their reactor building secondary containment, where it detonated at units 1&3 anyway. Some plants vent to the outside, which in hindsight is a better idea, but this method of venting is an aftermarket mod aimed at reducing core damage frequency, and not tech spec required.
HPCI needs DC power to operate – it is a large system and I don’t know of any plants that have a contingency for local manual operation. Once batteries run out, RCIC can be operated locally (some operators call it “riding RCIC”, since you end up straddling 1000 psig steam supplies). However, as mentioned above, with AC-powered containment cooling lost, eventually containment pressures get so high that they impose too much backpressure on the RCIC turbine exhaust, and it will fail.
Water in cable trenches doesn’t necessarily mean an electrical penetration breach – those trenches are just lowpoints, and with the amount of external injection that was going on, the water just found its way there. There is a unit 2 break somewhere, though, since the primary containment pressure very quickly went to atmosphere, and water with fuel fragment traces had been identified.
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http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1981/3445600211884.pdf.
Thanks for the link! I took the liberty to repost it at physicsforums as that is easily the best ongoing discussion about this unfortunate disaster...
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=480200&page=332
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sell crazy someplace else realitycheck. you only look at what you want to see.
Funny video :) We all only look at what we want to see...it's been called the confirmation bias...we should all go back to school, don't you think?
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There is no evidence thus far that the failed fuel breached the reactor vessels in any of the Fukushima reactors. You would be looking at reactor vessel-to-primary containment pressure equalization and very high bottom head temperatures (what is referred to as “core breach signature”).
I was reading the reports and according to the core temperature reading variations they suspect Unit 2' s core is sitting on the concrete floor. The cores are so damaged that even if they get power to various cooling systems, they may not work due to blockage. Plus if they do work, you will be transporting damaged fuel through the system...won't that be fun. MORE LEAD!
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I was reading the reports and according to the core temperature reading variations they suspect Unit 2' s core is sitting on the concrete floor. The cores are so damaged that even if they get power to various cooling systems, they may not work due to blockage. Plus if they do work, you will be transporting damaged fuel through the system...won't that be fun. MORE LEAD!
How would you verify that? Is there a base slab that has a gap between the reactor and the concrete? Or would it fill the area where the torus is located?
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I was reading the reports and according to the core temperature reading variations they suspect Unit 2' s core is sitting on the concrete floor. The cores are so damaged that even if they get power to various cooling systems, they may not work due to blockage. Plus if they do work, you will be transporting damaged fuel through the system...won't that be fun. MORE LEAD!
How would they have measured "core temperature reading variations" if the core was sitting on the ground lol. Also, core spray systems would be recirculation through the torus and core and wouldnt really be spreading any more fuel then would already be present... That said, radiation levels would sky rocket and would be the real indication, not fuel temperature. Thermocouples would be long destroyed before measuring that level.
How would you verify that? Is there a base slab that has a gap between the reactor and the concrete? Or would it fill the area where the torus is located?
the mark 1 containment has the reactor over the torus, and the ring doesnt sit underneath the reactor. It wouldnt touch the torus unless it expelled out violently vice "melted through", so itd be sitting in the drywell if anything.
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I was reading the reports and according to the core temperature reading variations they suspect Unit 2' s core is sitting on the concrete floor. The cores are so damaged that even if they get power to various cooling systems, they may not work due to blockage. Plus if they do work, you will be transporting damaged fuel through the system...won't that be fun. MORE LEAD!
I haven't seen such a report - can you provide a link?
Indeed the core geometries are likely badly damaged, but this far after shutdown you can worry less about preserving the clear flowpath through the core and can instead just mitigate by keeping the vessel bottom flooded. This of course becomes impossible if the core has melted through the vessel to the floor, which is why you hear about primary containment flooding contingencies. I have not seen any industry person yet say that they believe the core have melted to the containment floor, though.
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good reading.
http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/24/072/24072657.pdf
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How would they have measured "core temperature reading variations" if the core was sitting on the ground lol. Also, core spray systems would be recirculation through the torus and core and wouldnt really be spreading any more fuel then would already be present... That said, radiation levels would sky rocket and would be the real indication, not fuel temperature. Thermocouples would be long destroyed before measuring that level.
the mark 1 containment has the reactor over the torus, and the ring doesnt sit underneath the reactor. It wouldnt touch the torus unless it expelled out violently vice "melted through", so itd be sitting in the drywell if anything.
For those of us who have actually been in drywells the floor is concrete. The core temps are perhaps misleading as they are actual inlet and outlet variations, reflective of core temps.
Richard Lahey, who was head of safety research for boiling water reactors at General Electric when the company installed the units at the Japan plant, says the radioactive core in the Unit 2 reactor appears to have melted through the bottom of its containment vessel and on a concrete floor.
“The indications we have, from the reactor to radiation readings and the materials they are seeing, suggest that the core has melted through the bottom of the pressure vessel in unit two, and at least some of it is down on the floor of the drywell,” Lahey told the paper.
Lahey did add there was no danger of a Chernobyl-style catastrophe.
http://homelandsecuritynewswire.com/fukushima-daiichi-nuclear-plant-lost
http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2011/03/29/nuclear-expert-japanese-reactor-core-has-probably-melted-through-containment-vessel/
IAEA report 3/21: Unit 2
Coolant within Unit 2 is covering about half of the fuel rods in the reactor, and Japanese authorities believe the core has been damaged. Following an explosion on 15 March, Japanese officials expressed concerns that the reactor's containment may not be fully intact. As of 19 March, 11:30 UTC, officials could no longer confirm seeing white smoke coming from the building. Smoke had been observed emerging from the reactor earlier. White smoke/vapour was observed again from 9:22 UTC on 21 March and diminished to nearly invisible by 22:11 UTC the same day. During the time of smoke emission, an increase in radiation dose rates was reported at 9:30 UTC 21 March. TEPCO then ordered an evacuation of plant personnel, though workers returned as of 00:00 UTC 22 March
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I have talked to someone who has just returned from Japan. They were helping them establish boundries in the country side, 20 miles away from the plant where they have mrad smearable. Foreign visitors were not allowed near the coast.
The fact is they don't have enough people to monitor. They don't have enough instruments. They don't know at what levels they should tell the people it is okay, or if they can plant crops or what crops to plant. They could use mobile labs, but no one seems to have suggested that idea. I used to do Sr separations in a trailer using stone knives and pitch forks and got the same results as B and W Lynchberg. How difficult would it be to ship trailers with WBCs, GeLi counters, and wet labs? Seems like there is a lot more things we could be doing...and alot more money to be made in the future.
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I don't think it is that bad. I am starting to feel good about being able to play fantasy football this fall.
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Have you seen these yet?
http://nuclearstreet.com/newsletters/5_11_11.html
A lot of "junk in their trunk"
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can anyone tell us how the 'simpsons' containment dome is coming along ?
can't hardly find any good news in the press re: fukushima these days.
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can anyone tell us how the 'simpsons' containment dome is coming along ?
can't hardly find any good news in the press re: fukushima these days.
Don't expect to, it is old news as far as the 'press' is concerned. They have much more 'sensational' things to mis-report on!
JMO [dowave]
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The IAEA which was making daily reports, seems to have gone to weekly reports even though the situation is still "serious" and they got tons of highly radioactive water all over the place. Ideas to flood the drywell as well as process and reuse the water are being floated.
Arnold's wife has split. Don and Huck-No. Newt-yes. Bin Laden-dead. William and Kate married. Topless Pippa photos. IMF in jail. It has been a busy spring. Oh yes and the world is going to end May 21... from a guy who has predicted the end of the world before.
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Oh yes and the world is going to end May 21... from a guy who has predicted the end of the world before.
Did bismuth-210 make that prediction..... ::)
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...Oh yes and the world is going to end May 21... from a guy who has predicted the end of the world before.
Was he right the first time? If so, we better get ready!
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http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,2058823,00.html
No new information, but some very interesting photos...
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can anyone tell us how the 'simpsons' containment dome is coming along ?
can't hardly find any good news in the press re: fukushima these days.
Well as soon as you come up with our request for documentation we might be helpful to you in return.
Just a reminder, we are still waiting for that email:
in case you didn't get the email, a strong pro-nuke talking point is that if the plants go offline, then we will be forced to live in caves or endure rolling blackouts. this is often parroted by IP supporters, which is close to NYC.
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TEPCO has just released "diaries" from early in the accident giving us a better view of the sequence of events from the operators point of view.
The bulk of the materials, distributed on discs with digital files, show reams of raw numerical data. They include photos of broadsheet computer printouts and other formatted charts with thousands of data points for measurements of reactor heat, pressure, water levels, fuel rod positions and the status of cooling pumps, among other functions. Tokyo Electric, or Tepco, also released a smaller batch of more recent documents highlighting its various efforts to restore electric power to each of the reactors, a task that was achieved on April 26.
But a series of what Tepco terms reactor "diaries" from the first 48 hours after the quake include the most visually arresting materials. These feature snapshots of whiteboards on which plant employees—11 of whom remained in each of the plant's three control rooms—jotted down status updates on the progress of the reactor shutdowns and steadily increasing radiation levels around the facility.
Using red, black or blue ink markers, the plant operators appear to have scribbled down the notes quickly. Many are smudged or illegible. Others depict complex diagrams and are peppered with technical jargon or acronyms such as SBO for "station blackout."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704281504576329011846064194.html
So helpless were the plant's engineers that, as dusk fell after Japan's devastating March 11 quake and tsunami, they were forced to scavenge flashlights from nearby homes. They pulled batteries from cars not washed away by the tsunami in a desperate effort to revive reactor gauges that weren't working properly. The plant's complete power loss contributed to a failure of relief vents on a dangerously overheating reactor, forcing workers to open valves by hand.
And in a significant miscalculation: At first, engineers weren't aware that the plant's emergency batteries were barely working, the investigation found—giving them a false impression that they had more time to make repairs. As a result, nuclear fuel began melting down hours earlier than previously assumed. This week Tokyo Electric Power Co., or Tepco, confirmed that one of the plant's six reactors suffered a substantial meltdown early in Day 1.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704322804576302553455643510.html
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http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2011/05/20/photos-when-the-tsunami-hit-fukushima-daiichi/?mod=WSJBlog&mod=WSJ_Japan_JapanRealTime
More tsunami pix...
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Lots of interesting information in this paper from TEPCO:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_110525_01-e.pdf (http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_110525_01-e.pdf)
Units 1-4 did not have RCIC. They had isolation condensers. Not only that, the isolation condensers were water cooled with 8 hours of water in the condenser reservoir.
HPCI required DC power to operate. The turbine lube oil pump was DC; it didn't have a shaft oil pump. I think this may be common here too, anyone willing to verify that?
That's why they had trouble so quick: 8 hours later and without AC power they had no way to get water to the pressure vessel. About the same time the instruments died from a lack of battery power is about the time they lost the isolation condenser from a lack of water.
They also verify that they didn't have the hardened vent modification.
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The link to this article was Japan: seniors volunteer for 'suicide corps' I can't blame the press for that but pyramiding with a negative bias by the news link was clear. The reasons for the seniors work to perform the work and their risk analysis seems sound, and if you believe in radiation hormesis then the gentleman with cancer could even benefit.
Fukushima may have a group that could tackle the nuclear crisis looming over Japan. The Skilled Veterans Corps, retired engineers and professionals, want to volunteer to work in the dangerous conditions instead of putting younger generations at risk.
More than 200 Japanese retirees are seeking to replace younger workers at Fukushima while the plant is being stabilized.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/307378
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The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) on June 6 revised the level of radioactivity of materials emitted from the crisis hit Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant from 370,000 terabecquerels to 850,000 terabecquerels.
(from 10,000,000 curies to 22,972,972.97 curies)
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110606p2a00m0na009000c.html
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The Japanese report to the IAEA
http://www.kantei.go.jp/foreign/kan/topics/201106/iaea_houkokusho_e.html
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The following article focus's on US spent fuel storage safety,
Several members of Congress are calling for the fuel to be moved from the pools into dry casks at a faster clip, noting that the casks are thought to be capable of withstanding an earthquake or a plane crash, they have no moving parts and they require no electricity.
but there is a reference to Fukishima's dry storage casks farther into the article.
But Robert Alvarez, a former senior adviser to the secretary of energy and expert on nuclear power, points out that unlike the fuel pools, dry casks survived the tsunami at Fukushima unscathed. “They don’t get much attention because they didn’t fail,” he said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/06/business/energy-environment/06cask.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&ref=science
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Interesting piece of info.
In 1967, Tepco chopped 25 meters off the 35-meter natural seawall where the reactors were to be located, according to documents filed at the time with Japanese authorities. That little-noticed action was taken to make it easier to ferry equipment to the site and pump seawater to the reactors. It was also seen as an efficient way to build the complex atop the solid base of bedrock needed to better protect the plant from earthquakes.
But the razing of the cliff also placed the reactors five meters below the level of 14- to 15-meter tsunami hitting the plant March 11, triggering a major nuclear disaster resulting in the meltdown of three reactor cores.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303982504576425312941820794.html
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Hind sight is 20/20 eh?
Are they still trying to get techs over there to clean up?
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Still? Never heard that anyone was looking for "techs" to go to Japan and "clean up." A few specialists have been recruited, but I haven't heard of a call out for "techs" (whatever those are).
I know Denuke had a posting shortly after the tsunami had rolled through there. I just haven't seen any more talk about it.
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I know Denuke had a posting shortly after the tsunami had rolled through there. I just haven't seen any more talk about it.
Thus, a lesson in body shops and resume stacks, grasshoppah....
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Interesting piece of info.
In 1967, Tepco chopped 25 meters off the 35-meter natural seawall where the reactors were to be located, according to documents filed at the time with Japanese authorities. That little-noticed action was taken to make it easier to ferry equipment to the site and pump seawater to the reactors. It was also seen as an efficient way to build the complex atop the solid base of bedrock needed to better protect the plant from earthquakes.
But the razing of the cliff also placed the reactors five meters below the level of 14- to 15-meter tsunami hitting the plant March 11, triggering a major nuclear disaster resulting in the meltdown of three reactor cores.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303982504576425312941820794.html
The part I put in bold is the key part. You don't build nuclear plants on the overburden when bedrock is 25 meters away. That's just not viable in earthquake country.
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The part I put in bold is the key part. You don't build nuclear plants on the overburden when bedrock is 25 meters away. That's just not viable in earthquake country.
Maybe ;)
Toyota was a key executive who was involved in the Fukushima No. 1 plant construction.
It is actually common practice to build primary nuclear plant facilities directly on bedrock because of the temblor factor.
Toyota also cited two other reasons for Tepco clearing away the bluff — seawater pumps used to provide coolant water needed to be set up on the ground up to 10 meters from the sea, and extremely heavy equipment, including the 500-ton reator pressure vessels, were expected to be brought in by boat.
In fact, Tepco decided to build the plant on low ground based on a cost-benefit calculation of the operating costs of the seawater pumps, according to two research papers separately written by senior Tepco engineers in the 1960s.
If the seawater pumps were placed on high ground, their operating costs would be accordingly higher.
"We decided to build the plant at ground level after comparing the ground construction costs and operating costs of the circulation water pumps," wrote Hiroshi Kaburaki, then deputy head of the Tepco's construction office at the Fukushima No. 1 plant, in the January 1969 edition of Hatsuden Suiryoku, a technical magazine on power plants.
Still, Tepco believed ground level was "high enough to sufficiently secure safety against tsunami and typhoon waves," wrote Seiji Saeki, then civil engineering section head of Tepco's construction office, in his research paper published in October 1967.
Engineers at Tohoku Electric Power Co., on the other hand, had a different take on the tsunami threat when the Onagawa nuclear plant was built in Miyagi Prefecture in the 1980s.
Like Fukushima, the plant was built along the Tohoku coast and was hit by tsunami as high as 13 meters on March 11.
Before building the plant, Tohoku Electric, examining historic records of tsunami reported in the region, conducted computer simulations and concluded the local coast could face tsumani of up to 9.1 meters.
Tohoku Electric had set the construction ground level at 14.8 meters above sea level — which barely spared the Onagawa plant from major damage from 13-meter-high tsunami that hit in March.
Former Tepco worker Naganuma said many locals now feel they have been duped by Tepco's long-running propaganda on the safety of its nuclear facilities, despite the huge economic benefits the plant brought to his hometown of Okuma, which hosts the Fukushima No. 1 plant.
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Why are we not hearing any updates on Japanese nuke problems, releases, affects on environment ,etc. ?
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The cores in the units in question have melted through their reactor pressure vessels and breached their drywells.
Anyone who has stood in a sub pile room or worked a torus or suppression pool must be wondering what this looks like.
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I've never set foot in a BWR, but I'd love to see pictures of what the heck the state of things are in there.
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"The government should relax restrictions on the amount of allowable radiation in food and also rethink its evacuation criteria for Fukushima Prefecture, site of the world's worst nuclear accident since Chernobyl, a British physics professor said Monday.
"The real problem is fear," Oxford University professor emeritus Wade Allison said at the Foreign Correspondents' Club of Japan in Chiyoda Ward, Tokyo."
"The 500-becquerel limit on food sales imposed by the Japanese government is identical to the EU's limit but lower than the 1,200-becquerel limit set by the United States, which, Allison asserts, is also overly cautious."
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20111004a4.html
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"Three months after the start of full-scale water circulation system operations at the crippled Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant, high-level radioactive waste has kept piling up amid no clear indications of its final disposal destination."
"The Kurion and Sally systems are designed to purify decontaminated water through an absorption unit called a "vessel" that contains zeolites. The vessel is changed every few days and the used vessels become radioactive waste.
Areva's water treatment system filters contaminated water by having sand absorb radioactive materials and precipitate with the help of chemicals. But the treatment produces highly polluted sludge.
According to TEPCO, radioactive waste as of Sept. 27 included 210 Kurion-made vessels (a total of about 307 cubic meters) with each vessel measuring 0.9 meters in diameter and 2.3 meters in height and 581 cubic meters of sludge via the Areva unit."
"Professor Akio Koyama at Kyoto University Research Reactor Institute says, "The density of high-level decontaminated water is believed to be a maximum 10 billion becquerels per liter, but if it is condensed to polluted sludge and zeolites, its density sometimes increases by 10,000 times. The density cannot be dealt with through conventional systems.""
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20111003p2a00m0na011000c.html
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The operator of Japan's tsunami-hit Fukushima nuclear power plant Monday said the amount of radiation being emitted from the complex has halved from a month ago, in the latest sign that efforts to bring the plant under control are progressing.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/17/us-japan-nuclear-idUSTRE79C0PL20111017
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The government and the Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO) are expected to announce that they will aim for a stable condition called "cold shutdown" of the nuclear reactors at the crippled Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant by the end of this year, slightly earlier than the originally planned deadline of mid-January.
The government will hold a meeting of its nuclear disaster taskforce as early as December to decide on whether they can call the "step 2" phase of the roadmap to bring the nuclear power plant under control finished. This "step 2" phase aims for "having the release of radioactive material under control and a sharp curb in radiation levels." The target period for achieving step 2 was set for "between mid-October and mid-January next year."
One condition for achieving a cold shutdown was having the temperature at the bottom of each reactor pressure vessel of the No. 1 to 3 nuclear reactors at the Fukushima plant under 100 degrees Celsius from the beginning of this month -- a condition currently being met. Furthermore, according to TEPCO, the amount of radioactive substances being released from the nuclear reactor buildings from Sept. 1 to Sept. 15 was about 200 million becquerels per hour, about one four-millionth of what was measured immediately after the outbreak of the nuclear crisis, and the amount of radiation on the outer premises of the nuclear plant's grounds is estimated to be at most 0.4 millisieverts per year, below the legal limit.
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20111017p2a00m0na007000c.html
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What is the instrument on the tripod in these photos of the DOE RAP team set up at Fukushima?
http:// http://m.flickr.com/lightbox?id=6231181876
http://m.flickr.com/lightbox?id=6231181804
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First glimpses inside the Fukushima No. 1 compound since 3/11
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20111117f1.html
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/images/photos2011/nn20111117f1/index.html
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Very detailed report from INPO (publically released) is available at the following link:
http://www.nei.org/resourcesandstats/documentlibrary/safetyandsecurity/reports/special-report-on-the-nuclear-accident-at-the-fukushima-daiichi-nuclear-power-station
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I read through the INPO report on Fukushima. Seems very complete and fact based, although it does a good job of putting people in the middle of the situation. I can only imagine hooking car batteries up to instruments to take RPV level readings and probing other insturments. The feeling of doom watching the water level fall must have been overwhelming.
One question comes to mind. Several chapters in the report refer to highly radioactive debris scattered about from the reactor building explosions. With the SFP's apparently intact, and the containments largely intact, where did all this radioactive material come from. Is there enough activated stuff up there to cause widespread contamination? Otherwise, are we looking at contamination from gaseous fission products that escaped with the hydrogen that built up in the RB?
Thanks!
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Is there enough activated stuff up there to cause widespread contamination? Otherwise, are we looking at contamination from gaseous fission products that escaped with the hydrogen that built up in the RB?
Thanks!
At the levels they were talking about, it has to be the fission products going out with the vented steam and hydrogen as you're speculating.
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It was mixed reviews in my household. I found it quite interesting and thorough. Wifey looked over my shoulder and proclaimed "Dear God, why would anyone read something so incredibly boring."
I'd like to see more on what's happened since the end of the report narrative.
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Two of the handouts from the Nov 30 press conference have now been translated to English by TEPCO:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_111130_04-e.pdf (http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_111130_04-e.pdf)
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_111130_08-e.pdf (http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_111130_08-e.pdf)
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Two of the handouts from the Nov 30 press conference have now been translated to English by TEPCO:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_111130_04-e.pdf (http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_111130_04-e.pdf)
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_111130_08-e.pdf (http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_111130_08-e.pdf)
Lots of colorful pictures and graphs with simple explanations. My kind of reports. ;)
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Surveys find radiation and more leaked water
21 June 2012
A robotic survey of the unit 2 reactor building in mid-June measured radiation levels directly over the fifth floor reactor well, where radiation was extremely high.
Measurements ranged from 415-530 mSv/hr directly adjacent to the well, and 783-880 mSv/hr directly over it. Even near the open spent fuel pool, which the mobile robot Quince photographed, levels ranged between 80-173 mSv/hr. The temperature and humidity over the reactor well was 20.5°C—however it is ventilated by the opening from the blow-out panel—and humidity is 75.3%. Radiation measured on lower floors was much less: 10-23 mSv/hr on the third floor, and 11-22 mSv/hr on the fourth floor.
http://www.neimagazine.com/story.asp?sectioncode=72&storyCode=2062559&goback=%2Egde_2530360_member_128566879
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The Nuclear Accident Independent Investigation Commission of the Japanese Diet has issued it's report.
http://naiic.go.jp/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/NAIIC_report_lo_res.pdf
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Workers at the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant were ordered to cover their dosimeters with lead plates to keep radiation doses low enough to continue working under dangerous conditions, the Asahi Shimbun has learned.
Some refused the orders. Others raised questions about their safety and the legality of the practice. But the man in charge, a senior official of a subcontractor of Tokyo Electric Power Co., warned them that they would lose their jobs--and any chance of employment at other nuclear plants--if they failed to comply.
The pocket-sized dosimeters sound an alarm when they detect high radiation levels. A worker who has been exposed to an accumulated dose of 50 millisieverts within a year must stop working and stay away from the area for a certain period of time.
The 54-year-old senior official at Build-Up, a midsize construction company based in Fukushima Prefecture, worked out a system to ensure the dosimeters would not reach the limit, according to the workers. It included having the workers themselves build the lead cover that would prevent the radiation from reaching the dosimeters.
http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201207210069
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Just what the industry needs!
>:( >:( >:( >:(
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Just what the industry needs!
>:( >:( >:( >:(
I am hoping it is just one overzealous manager. The US has similar skeletons in it's closet (not recently to be clear) but we are as an industry ethical in these matters. But yes any black eye hurts all of us even internationally. I am glad to hear that many of the workers did question the practice as the Japanese are higher than Americans on the Power Distance index and much lower on the individualistic scales.
Just finished reading Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell who references these scales in his book. Instead of a Sea-Lawyer I guess you could call me Sea-Physiologist ;)
http://www.clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/power-distance-index/
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Physiology
1 : a branch of biology that deals with the functions and activities of life or of living matter (as organs, tissues, or cells) and of the physical and chemical phenomena involved.
"A major lapse in Japanese aviation was air to air communication. Voice radios were generally unreliable, often due to unshielded ignitions so pilots developed ishin denshin or a mutual sixth sense."
Clash of the Carriers, Barrett Tillman
Marlin,
Thankyou again for the "well done". It meant alot to me.
Bill
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Who do suppose wrote the RWP for this job? And, what is Yoshi on the extended probe reading? Somewhere around Godzilla/hr I'd imagine...
(http://maximumnewsinformer.com/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/6c808_120722-japan-fukushima-nuclear-115a.photoblog500.jpg)
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It is probably new fuel they had staged for the refueling. Trying to recover it, I would guess.
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Workers at the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant were ordered to cover their dosimeters with lead plates to keep radiation doses low enough to continue working under dangerous conditions, the Asahi Shimbun has learned.
Some refused the orders. Others raised questions about their safety and the legality of the practice. But the man in charge, a senior official of a subcontractor of Tokyo Electric Power Co., warned them that they would lose their jobs--and any chance of employment at other nuclear plants--if they failed to comply.
The funny thing about this is that if you find an anti-nuclear site you'll find statements saying that they were "ordered" to shield their TLD's or else they would lose their jobs. If you look at other sites you'll find that they were told that if they wanted to continue working at the fukushima site they should shield their TLD's because they would have to stop working there once they received their allotted exposure. It's not as if they were going to be fired if they didn't shield their TLD's, they just wouldn't be allowed to receive any more radiation for the year.
Now, don't get me wrong I think the company was still pissing on moral boundaries but the workers were not threatened with their jobs as some activists would like you to believe.
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The stresses of personal involvement in the evacuation, management and cleanup related to the Fukushima nuclear accident have emerged as the biggest factors in ill health for Japanese people.
The mental or physical burden of the forced move from their homes because of the Fukushima accident was the cause of 34 early deaths, said a report from Japan's Reconstruction Agency on 21 August. The figure compares to 1916 people from Fukushima, Iwate and Miyagi prefectures that died during evacuation from areas hit only by the tsunami and the earthquake. The leading causes of the majority of those early deaths were disruption to the smooth operation of hospitals, the exacerbation of pre-existing health problems, and the general 'mental fatigue' from dramatic changes in life situation.
"If we took a 'do more good than harm' approach I suspect we would abandon forced evacuation altogether, especially where iodine tables are available."
Malcolm Grimston
Imperial College
A cross-section of all people that died during their evacuation showed that the vast majority were elderly: only 4% were below 60 years of age, while 67% were over 80. Some 18% of these fatalities came within one week of the natural disasters and nuclear accident; 48% within one month; and 78% within three months.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_The_health_effects_of_Fukushima_2808121.html?goback=%2Egde_2170900_member_154737743
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The stresses of personal involvement in the evacuation, management and cleanup related to the Fukushima nuclear accident have emerged as the biggest factors in ill health for Japanese people.
The mental or physical burden of the forced move from their homes because of the Fukushima accident was the cause of 34 early deaths, said a report from Japan's Reconstruction Agency on 21 August. The figure compares to 1916 people from Fukushima, Iwate and Miyagi prefectures that died during evacuation from areas hit only by the tsunami and the earthquake. The leading causes of the majority of those early deaths were disruption to the smooth operation of hospitals, the exacerbation of pre-existing health problems, and the general 'mental fatigue' from dramatic changes in life situation.
"If we took a 'do more good than harm' approach I suspect we would abandon forced evacuation altogether, especially where iodine tables are available."
Malcolm Grimston
Imperial College
A cross-section of all people that died during their evacuation showed that the vast majority were elderly: only 4% were below 60 years of age, while 67% were over 80. Some 18% of these fatalities came within one week of the natural disasters and nuclear accident; 48% within one month; and 78% within three months.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_The_health_effects_of_Fukushima_2808121.html?goback=%2Egde_2170900_member_154737743
Here is a parallel article that critisizes the evacuation then continues to evacuation and emergancy response in general. The full article is at the link below.
The Aftermath of Fukushima
Civil Defense Perspectives September 2012, Vol. 28 No. 6
After Fukushima, people are asking questions such as: Should Japan, and the world, totally give up on nuclear energy(Nature 6/7/12)? Casualties from radiation, from the worst nuclear accident in history, are still zero. But what about the projected later cancers? What if an accident contaminates the environment forever? Should people be allowed to return home?
A rational discussion of evacuation policy must begin with the question: “What is the dose?” The follow-up: If we evacuate Fukushima, should Denver be evacuated? How about Finland?
The Harm of Over-reaction
The 172,000 people living within a 30-km radius of the Fukushima Daiichi plant have been forced or advised to leave. More than two-thirds of the world’s 211 nuclear power plants have more people than that living with 30 km (Nature 4/28/11).
Because of shutting down most of its nuclear reactors, Japan’s imports of fuel increased by $55 billion in 2011. This, coupled with slowdowns in manufacturing from power shortages, reversed Japan’s trade balance from 20 years of trade surpluses to an $18 billion deficit (W. Tucker, WSJ 3/6/12).
Uprooting people from their homes, work, and usual support systems, and forcing them into crowded refugee centers, causes casualties, especially among the elderly. It may permanently destroy their livelihood from farm or business. After Chernobyl, the most widespread and devastating effects were psychological, including suicide and psychosis, writes Z. Jaworowski (http://tinyurl.com/95rdafa). He attributes this to excessive remedial measures and global radiophobic propaganda.
Consistent, Meaningful Doses
The public is often frightened by doses given in tiny units, or confused by new international units (sieverts, grays) versus older units (rems, rads). For example, some workers “suffered” exposures of 100,000 μSv [100 mSv, 10 rad] after wading in radioactive water (WSJ 6/14/11).
Another scary number is the 36,000 terabequerels (~1 million curies [Ci]) of radioactivity that the plants “spewed”—which amounted to 11 kg of radioactive material out of the 60,000 kg of fuel per unit (http://tinyurl.com/9mvb5du). Alarmists warned that the reactors contained about 134 million Ci of Cs-137 or 85 times as much as was released at Chernobyl. In contrast, U.S. and Russian weapons complexes have released some 1.6 billion Ci, compared with an inventory of ~140 billion Ci in the oceans.
Exposures from a contaminated environment, suggest Buongiorno et al., should be compared with average total natural background rates (http://tinyurl.com/c6whqb8). This accounts for the low dose-rate and is thus more scientifically valid than comparisons with medical exposures delivered over a few seconds. Comparison with the range of natural levels is also much more informative than with government permissible limits, which may be thousands of times too low.
The world average dose-rate for natural background is 0.27 μSv/hr (times 8766 hr/y gives 2.4/y). The excess dose received in Denver is 3 mSv/y—what Richard Muller calls the “Denver dose.” The current International Commission on Radiological Protection (ICRP) evacuation standard of 1 mSv/y would appear to require the immediate evacuation of Denver, Muller notes (WSJ 8/18-19/12), among many other places.
Some approximate lifetime (70-y) exposures in mSv:
United States (avg)
180
Sweden*
410
Finland*
510
Chernobyl (“high” contamination)*
480
Kerala, India (coastal)+
1,600-14,000
Ramsar, Iran (high background area)‡
18,200
*Jaworowski, op. cit.; +Luckey http://tinyurl.com/9jrt52u;
‡Health Physics 2002;82:87-93.
http://www.physiciansforcivildefense.org/2012/09/28/the-aftermath-of-fukushima/#more-44
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'I am one of the Fukushima fifty': One of the men who risked their lives to prevent a catastrophe shares his story (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/i-am-one-of-the-fukushima-fifty-one-of-the-men-who-risked-their-lives-to-prevent-a-catastrophe-shares-his-story-8517394.html)
pull quote
It was, recalls Atsufumi Yoshizawa, a suicide mission: volunteering to return to a dangerously radioactive nuclear power plant on the verge of tipping out of control.
As he said goodbye to his colleagues they saluted him, like soldiers in battle. The wartime analogies were hard to avoid: in the international media he was a kamikaze, a samurai or simply one of the heroic Fukushima 50. The descriptions still embarrass him. “I’m not a hero,” he says. “I was just trying to do my job.”
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The stresses of personal involvement in the evacuation, management and cleanup related to the Fukushima nuclear accident have emerged as the biggest factors in ill health for Japanese people.
The mental or physical burden of the forced move from their homes because of the Fukushima accident was the cause of 34 early deaths, said a report from Japan's Reconstruction Agency on 21 August. The figure compares to 1916 people from Fukushima, Iwate and Miyagi prefectures that died during evacuation from areas hit only by the tsunami and the earthquake. The leading causes of the majority of those early deaths were disruption to the smooth operation of hospitals, the exacerbation of pre-existing health problems, and the general 'mental fatigue' from dramatic changes in life situation.
"If we took a 'do more good than harm' approach I suspect we would abandon forced evacuation altogether, especially where iodine tables are available."
Malcolm Grimston
Imperial College
A cross-section of all people that died during their evacuation showed that the vast majority were elderly: only 4% were below 60 years of age, while 67% were over 80. Some 18% of these fatalities came within one week of the natural disasters and nuclear accident; 48% within one month; and 78% within three months.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_The_health_effects_of_Fukushima_2808121.html?goback=%2Egde_2170900_member_154737743
Following up again in reference to over reaction to nuclear disasters is the WHO report on anticipated cancers from release of radioactive material from Fukishima power plant.
The release of radioactive materials from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant 2 years ago this month is unlikely to cause a significant cancer burden, according to a 172-page report released yesterday (February 28) by the World Health Organization (WHO). While workers who were directly involved with the disaster may be at higher risk of leukemia, thyroid cancer, and all solid cancers, even those living near the plant should be safe, the WHO concluded.
“Outside the geographical areas most affected by radiation, even in locations within Fukushima prefecture, the predicted risks remain low and no observable increases in cancer above natural variation in baseline rates are anticipated,” the report’s summary read.
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/34565/title/Little-Cancer-Risk-from-Fukushima/
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'I am one of the Fukushima fifty': One of the men who risked their lives to prevent a catastrophe shares his story (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/i-am-one-of-the-fukushima-fifty-one-of-the-men-who-risked-their-lives-to-prevent-a-catastrophe-shares-his-story-8517394.html)
pull quote
It reminds me of some of the stories about operators and maintenance personnel at Chernobyl.
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Radiation levels across the Fukushima Daiichi power plant site have dropped significantly as clean-up efforts continue. Most workers receive less than 1 milliSievert of radiation per month - well within normal limits.
Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) has employed some 25,837 workers at the power plant since March 2011, keeping records of their radiation doses during the accident as well as the clean-up operation. One important task has been to protect workers and make the site workable by decontaminating the site and clearing away the radioactive rubble that was spread by the hydrogen explosions. Dust inhibiting sprays were used and heavy rubble was handled by remote control earth moving equipment. An airtight cover has been installed over unit 1 to prevent airborne release and the majority of rubble has been cleared from all the reactor building roofs.
A radiation survey map of the site made last week revealed substantial progress: the highest dose rate anywhere on the site was 0.15 milliSieverts per hour (mSv/h) near units 3 and 4. Two years ago a similar survey put the highest dose rate at 300 mSv/h near rubble lying alongside unit 3.
Fukushima Daiichi 4 area and central storage facility 28-29 March 2011 (Tepco) 460x120
Wreckage from the non-nuclear seafront portion of the plant stands out in an area otherwise cleared of debris in this archive picture from late March 2011 (Image: Tepco)
Elsewhere on site, the latest survey showed three areas with rates of 0.13 and one with 0.10 mSv/h. Below that, the higher levels found were spots at 0.06 mSv/h and 0.04 mSv/h. The majority of the power plant area is at less than 0.01 mSv/h, although of course many areas inside the power plant buildings remain too hazardous for workers to enter.
This reduction in on-site radiation is one factor in low doses for workers, also shown by recent data: During January, the 5702 workers at the site received an average of 0.86 mSv, with 75% of workers recorded as receiving less than 1 mSv. In total, only about 2% of workers received over 5 mSv and the highest dose in January was 12.65 mSv for one worker.
Occupational health and safety rules place a limit of 50 mSv/y per year on professionals working with radiation in Japan. Exposure limits of 100 mSv and 250 mSv were in place during the most difficult days of the accident but these have since been taken away in favour of more normal radiation protection standards.
Tepco managers assign tasks on the basis of each worker's exposure to date, their specific expertise and the predicted exposure from a planned task. This allows managers to make progress on site while keeping doses as low as they can. In total from March 2011 to the end of January 2013 some 25,837 workers had spent time on site. Of these, over 95% received less than 50 mSv during the 25 month period; 4% received 50-100 mSv and fewer than 1% received over 100 mSv.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Controlling_doses_at_Fukushima_plant_1103131.html?goback=%2Egde_2530360_member_221671086
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Pressure-washer robot to aid Fukushima decontamination
A new robot that delivers an extremely high-pressure jet of water will soon join the decontamination effort at the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant.
Workers need to sluice down the walls and floors of buildings before they can safely work inside, and the robot's arm would allow operators to direct a jet of water up to 2 meters in height, developer Hitachi Ltd. said.
The company said the water is under such high pressure it can remove paint or even the surface of concrete.
The robot, named "Arounder," was shown to the media on March 8.
Operators will control it remotely, using six cameras to monitor its progress. The operators will be located at least 75 meters away.
And with regard to one enduring problem at the plant--vast quantities of radioactive water--Hitachi said the robot will suck back up almost all the water it uses, leaving little on site and making it easier to deal with the contaminated material it collects.
Its tanks will hold enough water to clean up to 5 square meters at a time.
The robot is expected to be deployed at the nuclear plant in the summer.
http://mainichi.jp/english/english/newsselect/news/20130309p2g00m0dm012000c.html?goback=%2Egde_2530360_member_221625260
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Rat Body Linked to Blackout at Atomic Site
TOKYO — The operator of the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant said Wednesday that it had found what it believed was the cause of an extended blackout that disabled vital cooling systems this week: the charred body of a rat.
The operator, Tokyo Electric Power Company, said that when its engineers looked inside a faulty switchboard, they found burn marks and the rodent’s scorched body. The company said it appeared that the rat had somehow short-circuited the switchboard, possibly by gnawing on cables.
The company, known as Tepco, has blamed problems with the switchboard for the power failure that began Monday, cutting off the flow of cooling water to four pools used to store more than 8,800 nuclear fuel rods. It took Tepco almost a day to restore cooling to the first of the affected pools, with cooling of the final pool resuming early Wednesday.
Tepco said it would have taken several days for temperatures in the pools to have risen above the safe level of 65 degrees Celsius, or 149 degrees Fahrenheit. Still, the blackout served as an uncomfortable reminder to many Japanese about the continuing vulnerability of the plant, which had a triple meltdown in March 2011 after a huge earthquake and tsunami knocked out cooling systems. It was the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl.
Two years later, the Fukushima plant still relies on makeshift cooling systems, some of which were built as stopgap measures in the frantic weeks and months after the accident. The spent fuel pools have been a particular source of concern because they contain far more radioactive material than the three reactor cores that melted down two years ago, forcing the evacuation of 160,000 people.
A Tepco spokesman, Masayuki Ono, said temperatures in the pools were cooling, though it would take several days for them to get back to their pre-blackout levels.
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TOKYO, July 10 | Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:29am EDT
Japan's nuclear regulator expressed growing alarm on Wednesday at increased contamination beside the seafront of the stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station and urged the plant's operators to take protective measures.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/10/japan-nuclear-idUSL4N0FG1IY20130710?feedType=RSS&feedName=rbssEnergyNews&rpc=43 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/10/japan-nuclear-idUSL4N0FG1IY20130710?feedType=RSS&feedName=rbssEnergyNews&rpc=43)
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Steam coming from the building? This does not sound good after all this time.
***********************************************************
Fukushima nuclear plant: Japan takes steps over sea leak
Japan says it is taking steps to prevent contaminated water from the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant leaking into the sea.
The plant's operator recently admitted for the first time that radioactive water was still going into the sea.
A government spokesman said the authorities had taken immediate action.
Workers were asked to act promptly to stop the leak as steam was seen rising from one of the reactor buildings for the second time in a week.
On Tuesday, Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) said steam was seen around the fifth floor of the building housing Reactor No 3 shortly after 09:00 local time (00:00 GMT).
Workers were continuing with the ongoing operation to inject cooling water into the reactor and a pool storing nuclear fuel, it added.
It is not clear what is causing the steam, but levels of radiation around the reactor have not changed.
The sight of steam rising is worrying because it means somewhere inside the reactor building water is boiling, says the BBC's Rupert Wingfield-Hayes in Tokyo.
The badly damaged reactors are supposed to be in what is called "cold shutdown"; the temperature of the cooling water inside the reactor should be well below boiling point.
It is another sign that Tepco still does not fully know what is going on inside the damaged reactors, our correspondent adds.
Steam was last seen rising from a reactor building at the plant on 18 July.
The plant was crippled by an earthquake and tsunami in 2011, which knocked out cooling systems to the reactors, three of which melted down.
Leak
On Monday, Tepco said the plant was likely to be leaking contaminated water into the sea, something that has been suspected for some time, but previously denied by the company.
Outside experts have long suspected that the damaged reactors are leaking water, because of the very high levels of radioactive caesium still being found in samples of fish taken near the plant.
"High readings of radiation were detected from the soil [ground] of the turbine building. We are very sorry for causing concerns to many people, and especially we deeply apologise to the people of Fukushima," a company spokesman said.
Plant officials believe a leak is possible because the underground water levels in suspected areas fluctuate according to tide movements and rainfall, he added.
The Japanese government says it is taking the issue seriously.
"The ministry of trade, economy and industry was instructed to act promptly to prevent contaminated water from leaking to the ocean," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga told a news conference on Tuesday.
Since 2011, the plant has seen a series of water leaks and power failures.
Earlier this month, a sharp increase in radioactive caesium was detected in groundwater 25 metres (82ft) from the sea.
In June, radioactive water was also found to be leaking from a storage tank.
Experts say years of work lie ahead before the problems at the plant can be fully contained.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23419325?goback=%2Egde_2530360_member_260808614
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This originally came from Pravda (Truth) I'll let you be the judge. Best to be informed about the information that the nuclear naïve have read. I saw this picture on Facebook with the title of this article it did not take long to find the source.
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Fukushima: Pacific Ocean poisoned, millions at risk!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/537187_456424127789774_578872129_n.jpg)
Bad news from Fukushima. Over two years since the nuclear explosion which wrecked the facility after the 2011 earthquake and tsunami, the Pacific Ocean is being poisoned daily with lethal doses of highly toxic substances. This has been going on for over two years and according to some analysts, millions of people are at risk. Including in the USA.
Michael Snyder is among many researchers investigating the tonnes of toxic waste pouring every single day from Fukushima for some 750 days, and it continues, every single second of every minute of every day, week and month. In his article “Radioactive Water From Fukushima Is Systematically Poisoning The Entire Pacific Ocean” published originally in the website The Truth on August 6, 2013, he claims that “a massive amount of highly radioactive water is escaping into the Pacific Ocean from the ruins of the destroyed Fukushima nuclear facility in Japan.”
The article identifies tritium, cesium and strontium as the toxic substances pouring into the Pacific Ocean and being spread far and wide by ocean currents, rain and wind. Due to the fact that these substances are toxic and are almost certainly in the food chain, then people consuming contaminated Pacific seafood are probably already contaminated and possibly have rising levels of toxicity building up inside them.
Let us see what the operator of the plant, TEPCO, or Tokyo Electric Power Company, has to say. On Monday the operator admitted that since May 2011, between twenty and forty trillion becquerels of radioactive material have poured into the Pacific Ocean. So much for the official line that the contaminated water was contained in the holding tanks under the plant.
It gets worse. There is a developing emergency situation at one of the reactors and it is spinning out of TEPCO's control: Japan's Nuclear Regulatory Authority has confirmed that radioactive material has breached a security barrier. In other words, TEPCO has lost control of the situation.
400 metric tonnes, every day, is being pumped into the reactor, radioactive water is getting into the sea, cancer-causing elements are leaking into the Pacific Ocean. But it gets worse still - the levels of radioactive materials is rising: levels of Caesium-134 rose by 90 times over the weekend and Caesium-137 rose by 86 times between Friday and Monday, according to TEPCO.
Quite how polluted the Pacific Ocean is and how far the contamination has spread is still a mystery. When people start dropping dead in California and Australia, we may find out.
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/08/fukushima-pacific-ocean-poisoned-millions-at-risk-2732248.html
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This originally came from Pravda (Truth) I'll let you be the judge. Best to be informed about the information that the nuclear naïve have read. I saw this picture on Facebook with the title of this article it did not take long to find the source.
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Fukushima: Pacific Ocean poisoned, millions at risk!
How soon we forget:
http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/Text-of-Pravda-Article-on-Chernobyl/id-ccd16da5af3412d86255ddad9d69340e
May. 6, 1986 11:39 AM ET
MOSCOW (AP) _ Here is the report by the English-language service of official news agency Tass on an article about the Chernobyl nuclear accident published in today's edition of the Communist Party newspaper Pravda:
.....Some Western news agencies and all kinds of 'radio voices,' Pravda went on to say, tried to cultivate panic, by speaking of the death of thousands of people, of a nuclear explosion, of a massive irradiation of almost the entire European part of the country and of neighboring countries.
Here such reports cause perplexion, to say the least: what can be more shameful than to gloat over the trouble that occurred?
Measures to ensure the safety of the population and to put what was happening under control were made very swiftly. The evacuation was conducted in a strict and organized fashion. Only four hours were needed to get people ready and evacuate them from the nuclear power station's settlement. They were taken to neighboring districts, assigned to housing facilities, arrangements were made to meet their everyday needs, retail trade and medical services to the evacuees was organized. Deputies to rural Soviets assign people to lodging. They also arrange for their children to attend school. The evacuees help local residents in their work.
When people in Kiev learned of the accident that occurred at Chernobyl, many came to their workplaces, although it was Saturday, to volunteer assistance. None of the Kiev drivers refused to take part in the evacuation of the population from the station's zone, although only volunteers were offered to go. Many physicians in Kiev reported to city hospitals and polyclinics to offer their personal assistance to those affected.
Despite the entire complexity of the situation that took shape after the accident at the 4th power generating unit order reigned all that time and reigns now in nuclear power station's settlement and nearby villages. It was maintained thanks to the population and teams of Komsomol (Young Communist League) members in the first place. Automobile traffic on roads was and is orderly and organized, Pravda said.
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The operator of Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear plant is preparing to remove 400 tons of highly irradiated spent fuel from a damaged reactor building, a dangerous operation that has never been attempted before on this scale.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/14/us-japan-fukushima-insight-idUSBRE97D00M20130814 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/14/us-japan-fukushima-insight-idUSBRE97D00M20130814)
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A 5.3-magnitude earthquake has hit the Japanese prefecture that is home to the nuclear power plant crippled in the March 2011 earthquake and tsunami.
http://news.yahoo.com/-5-3-magnitude-earthquake-hits-japan-s-fukushima-184440374.html (http://news.yahoo.com/-5-3-magnitude-earthquake-hits-japan-s-fukushima-184440374.html)
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Below are links to very good pictures immediately following the accident. I don't know if these have been shared on here yet. I don't remember seeing them before now.
http://cryptome.org/2013-info/04/daiichi-11-03-04/daiichi-11-03-04.htm (http://cryptome.org/2013-info/04/daiichi-11-03-04/daiichi-11-03-04.htm)
http://cryptome.org/2012-info/daiichi-12-07/daiichi-12-07.htm (http://cryptome.org/2012-info/daiichi-12-07/daiichi-12-07.htm)
http://cryptome.org/2012-info/daiichi-12-0913/daiichi-12-0913.htm (http://cryptome.org/2012-info/daiichi-12-0913/daiichi-12-0913.htm)
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5 surprising health facts from the fallout of the Fukushima nuclear disaster
Thyroid Cancer Rates Lower in Fukushima Children Than Other Regions
Fukushima Seafood Safe to Eat
Fukushima Evacuation Zone Is Mostly Habitable
Cancer Rates in USS Reagan Crew members Lower Than Control Group
Fukushima Death Toll Is Too Small to Measure
http://www.businessinsider.com/5-surprising-health-facts-from-the-fallout-of-the-fukushima-nuclear-disaster-2015-3
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A great article......and yet all the comments (except one) are from dumb people. Just goes to show the majority of the public and ALL the anti-nukes are complete idiots when it comes to the wonders of Nuclear Power. I thought about making some comments, but I've decided (at least at this time) to refrain from wasting my time.