My question is what is the attrition rate once one is in prototype? Also are they just pushing in training nukes through now?
Also what advice can you give me on my prime. I am an upper level (mechanic). I am supposed go onto on crew in 3 weeks.
that said, I was an upper level prime :).
Isn't that what they call the 8 dollar seats at the top of Dodger Stadium? ;)
My question is what is the attrition rate once one is in prototype? Also are they just pushing in training nukes through now?
"Needs of the Navy" is the Key phrase here, the attrition rate can change from year to year.
I wasnt an instructor, but I have hard time believing them getting briefed before a class up
"ok guys, we only need XXXX nukes this year, so we need to fail out XX of them out of this class. Get ir done!"
My class had the 3rd highest gpa to go through power school. The class ahead of us came darn close to setting a record low. I had a 3.33 in powerschool and was bottom half :( for reference. Id be willing to bet the quality of recruiting may change? i.e. scraping the dregs to get nukes in. If that was your point, then I apologize.
Resume the draft at ~100,000 bodies per year. Darwin will keep the pipeline full.McDonald's may make that more difficult than you realize. Food for freedom gets a whole new meaning with 75% of our teens being too fat or too stupid to get in. Not smart enough for a AO? :stupidme:
I think there are too many factors ( Academic fails, discipline fails, pregos, sad pandas, deserters, & such) for anyone to keep a set value of what the pipeline needs to push through.
Lose your NEC, be derated to Buttswain's Mate. Should be plenty of motivation!Not when you are too fat or stupid to get in the door. (which is my point as to why the draft wouldn't work well with current standards)
Resume the draft at ~100,000 bodies per year. Darwin will keep the pipeline full.
Ugly times, local judges gave young men the option of going to jail with a felony record or enlisting, the draft fueled anti military sentiment andI think it is a major improvement for our military that we have raised our standards to not let in the people that society doesn't want. I get a little defensive when people look at someone and act like they have no choice or should just go join the military because they have burnt every other bridge. I acknowledge that it is an opportunity for some, but nobody wants to serve next to the jail dodgers and people who got backdoored into being there. If only we could raise the ASVAB standards further and keep the trend going.....
rich families found a way to keep their kids out of the draft or listed as 4F. As negative as some see the attitude in the Navy now I can almost guarantee it was much worse during the draft.I think we can rest assured that this wouldn't happen today... ::) ::) :->
If only we could raise the ASVAB standards further and keep the trend going.....
(Which you would know if you read my essay that was in Navy Times, not that anyone cares about Navy Times)I think we can rest assured that this wouldn't happen today... ::) ::) :->
the draft fueled anti military sentiment and rich families found a way to keep their kids out of the draft or listed as 4F.
That's odd, Elvis, Ted Williams and Willie Mays were fairly famous and/or affluent when they were drafted. Just because a few corrupt politicians of the Entitlement Generation let the rules slide during Nam doesn't mean a legitimate conscription wouldn't be a useful tool in raising recruitment standards today.
That's odd, Elvis, Ted Williams and Willie Mays were fairly famous and/or affluent when they were drafted. Just because a few corrupt politicians of the Entitlement Generation let the rules slide during Nam doesn't mean a legitimate conscription wouldn't be a useful tool in raising recruitment standards today.
That's odd, Elvis, Ted Williams and Willie Mays were fairly famous and/or affluent when they were drafted. Just because a few corrupt politicians of the Entitlement Generation let the rules slide during Nam doesn't mean a legitimate conscription wouldn't be a useful tool in raising recruitment standards today.
I found the whole thing a pump, there were a few people that were removed for academic failure before prototype, but mostly they had 2.7 or 2.8 GPAs and the huge amounts of mandatory hours just took the fight out of them. Prototype we had alot of people give up and say they wanted to commit suicide to get out. I don't remember any academic failures though, alot of people failed every test, including comp on the first try and still passed. There were also people so behind the curve that they graduated with the class behind them, we called them Senior Senior Class.
The draft and Vietnam put a lot of people with some college, if not a degree into the system. Most of the nukes back then had college.
The threat of orders to Gitmo or PBR's made the point you did not want to fail.
I'm not sure where I fall out on this one....
I initially went through the piepline back in 1990, and the drop rate at NFAS and NPS was very high. If you went to mast, you weren't likely to be retained in the program. If you were academically challenged, there wasn't many chances to fix yourself (they did sometimes "roll back" guys in NFAS). Was this the right balance?
Attrition today is low, with lots of "extra" help available to get kids through the pipeline. Is this the right balance?
Perhaps, we (Big Navy) owed more to those kids we brought in back in the day when the failure rate was much higher then it is now then to just kick them to the curb when things went awry.
I suspect the right balance is somewhere in the middle, but then again, what do I know.
The hardass method doesn't work when you take into account that the people from today are not the same as the 80s. To be frank it's impossible to expect the same level of commitment and hard work out of the people that grew up in the 90s and 2000s. Well, it's not impossible to expect it, you just won't get it about 95% of the time. So the program takes what it can get and pushes them through, if it didn't then we wouldn't have enough nukes, it's as simple as that really. It's still a filter, it just isn't a very good filter.
There have been times I've felt like I know what it would have been like to live in Salem at this command...
From what I understand of how it used to be, only those immediately involved would have been masted when it was a "filter".
The Salem remark was made in reference to the mass mastings more so than to "bad deals".
You would be wrong. If you were party too or had knowledge of said event (and did nothing) in the old days and they could (and in most cases they didn't care if they could) prove it then you went to mast and you were toast.
You don't have any idea what the old program was like, obviously.
Do not pass go and do not collect $200.
Mac
I think he's refering to old navy more then old nuke.
Mainly because Im still in A-school. It's a pain to change into NSU/Civilian clothes to run to the store or get a haircut off base just to come back and change back into NWU's, finish the homework, change back into civilian clothes to sleep in... Granted its a minor inconvienence but Im practicing the whole bitching sailor thing :-P
Comparing the people getting masted in the past to the people getting masted today is apples and oranges. From everything I have ever been told of how it "used to be" far fewer people got masted in the past. Not so much because of a change in behavior, but because of a change in command climate. There have been times I've felt like I know what it would have been like to live in Salem at this command...
That was my point HydroDave. It takes a whole lot to get dropped from the program these days. Most masted people don't get kicked out of the program in the current setting. However, the command is much more likely to take people to mast. For example - a similar incident happened to your .38 BAC occurance and 15+ people were taken to mast. Most of which are still in the program. From what I understand of how it used to be, only those immediately involved would have been masted when it was a "filter".
The Salem remark was made in reference to the mass mastings more so than to "bad deals".
It is frustrating to always hear the same thing ("If you haven't done a sea tour, you dont know squat") when that experience is unrelated to the topic at hand. I offered my opinion of a current student at NNPTC on a topic that had shifted (as it usually does) from NPTU to the training pipeline in general. My opinion is shared by many of my fellow students (I would say a majority). We base our comparison to the multitudes of stories we hear about Orlando, and when Charleston first opened, which are usually followed by "You could get away with it back then, it wasn't like it is now."You get flack because it's difficult to judge the quality of a training program until you see the results. That won't happen until you are qualified and talk to a new gaggle of prototype graduates who can't intelligently talk about any of the few systems or components that are actually the same between prototype and the ship.
"You could get away with it back then, it wasn't like it is now."I heard that one too and think some things were probably better and others have become better. It goes both ways. I wanted that life back in the plant far more than I did during the pipeline.
More like the shadow of Rickover fading,...This is true as well. It's his program and in his absence it has slowly loosened the grip for sure. I think that was unavoidable.
The shadow fades,.....
Mac, thank you for highlighting that - as I said - my knowledge of past events in the training pipeline was second hand. Thank you also for pointing out that I am a current student in the pipeline. From your posts I know that you were in my shoes in the 80's, and are now no longer in the Navy. In other words - my experience with the pipeline in the 80's are roughly the same as your experience with the current pipeline.
It is frustrating to always hear the same thing ("If you haven't done a sea tour, you dont know squat") when that experience is unrelated to the topic at hand. I offered my opinion of a current student at NNPTC on a topic that had shifted (as it usually does) from NPTU to the training pipeline in general. My opinion is shared by many of my fellow students (I would say a majority). We base our comparison to the multitudes of stories we hear about Orlando, and when Charleston first opened, which are usually followed by "You could get away with it back then, it wasn't like it is now."
That said the NNPP has been around 60 years. The "old days" are going to be different for most people you talk to. It would be difficult to find many people who had experience with the program in the 80's and are still with the program. While I don't doubt the truth of your experiences, I would not say they represent an exact representation of the pipeline for the entire 60 years. For example for the first 5 years of the 80's I doubt underage drinking was as big of an issue as it would have been in the second half of the decade, or as it is today.
I say this about this kid, because he is very unintelligent, but he works hard. That is all that matters. If you are so stupid that you can barely tie your shoe but you are trying extra hard and put in plus hours, you are as good as the kid who is 30% ahead of the curve.I'm sure he will do just fine in the fleet. My experience tells me that these guys can end up being a valuable asset to a division with some work ethic. I am not saying that dumb guys automatically have it, but it sounds like he does... and will do quite well. It's those guys that slide through without trying and then end up never trying on anything that drive me nuts.
On the other hand, short your hours and be stupid, you're out. Get a DUI, you are out. Decide you've got the brain pain and want to kill yourself and they may get rid of you, at least deNuke you.That's called being a "Sad Panda." If you're a facebook user, you can look up the Sad Pandas of RX. Department group. It started as a few ELT's on Truman making fun of the Sad Panda's and then slowly everyone else caught on and now it's a big group with a ton of nukes in there. This is the same in the fleet.
week 16 of sc 5sg proto this place is definitely a pump, if it was a filter i would have been gone in NFAS
week 16 of sc 5sg proto this place is definitely a pump, if it was a filter i would have been gone in NFAS
As a former instructor of the S8G prototype, in lovely Ballston Spa NY, I would have to say that the system is most definately a pump. It was hard for us to even propose that we get rid of any of the dumb kids, let alone ones that somehow managed to survive to week 24. As an example -
The legend of the Soup Pirate.
So, there I was, it was a cold, harsh winter, and the snow storms managed to knock out the power. A student that ended up in my section decided that during the cold, she wanted to warm up with a nice warm can of soup. Now, normal people take the soup out of the can when they heat up their soup... not the Soup Pirate. She slapped that can of warm delicious broth on the stovetop and turned it on. A few minutes later, Soup Pirate decided it was warm enough and turned the stove off. Now, comes the tricky part. Opening the can of soup.
Yep - you guessed it. IN THE FACE!!! The scalding hot soup expelled from the canister into her face and gave he second degree burns to her eyelid, and the good ol' clinic gave her a complimentary eye patch.
She is now a qualified member of the Surface Fleet.....
Im curious what hiring managers think when they read these kinds of threads...
From my experience, the non-hackers and slack asses won't typically make it through an well conducted interview anyway. Do some slip through? Yes, but like Mac alluded to, they will be weeded out eventually. One thing is for certain, commercial ops ain't pumping anyone through anything.
They do not need these threads to determine the worth of an ex-navy nuke. They hire them and see their results in their training program.
As a point of reference a particular company that hires ex-nav-nukes has seen them just barely make it through the program whereas the non-nav-nukes do a better job in training. I would also add the non-nav-nukes have a better attitude about 50% of the time. A total plus for off the street non-nav-nukes.
These threads just advertise the demise of a once guaranteed good product to the rest of the world.
YMWV
I would also add the non-nav-nukes have a better attitude about 50% of the time. A total plus for off the street non-nav-nukes.
What I meant was that from my experience for every nav-nuke that had a good attitude you could find that number plus an additional 50% (i.e. more) that had a equal too or better attitude (re: non-nav-nukes). Mac
I think I have confused you. Yes, I am sure that is true for all nav-nuke generations. But, this attitude issue is or was not even a blip on the radar with the pre'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It is a major problem with the post'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It has caught or training departments attention. And not in a good way. Mac
I think I have confused you. Yes, I am sure that is true for all nav-nuke generations. But, this attitude issue is or was not even a blip on the radar with the pre'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It is a major problem with the post'1995 (ish) nav-nukes. It has caught or training departments attention. And not in a good way. Mac
I think that the poor attitude comes from the fact that the Nuclear Navy tends to dick people over into a certain level of grudging dissatisfaction and marginal ability to work. I know that when I reported onboard the Hate My Job, I was enthusiastic about things and gung-ho about qualifying and learning my field.
Were you "old timers" (pre 95' as per mac's statement) "brainwashed" like we were?
How about pre-1985 in the late 70's there wasn't a lot of influx yet but it was starting. I saw a lot of changes toward the Navy way of doing things including hiring ex-Navy admirals to honcho troubled plants. It did not take long to saturate and adapt to a middle ground, by the 90s Navy influence was a "been there done that".
Oldhp, you were interviewing people 12 years before I was born :p
The creation/formation of INPO (post-TMI) 'with a heavy Navy influence', created a demand for NNPP experience; however, the commercial industry adapted to the 'INPO Standards' and found out quickly that they could train locals to do the task at hand (all areas) with less cost and risk!
JMO [dowave]
I have to agree with that, INPO was staffed by a lot of "Ring Knockers". But then INPO and Navy influence brought not just the people but the programs (including training) to a different level, there was a coal burner mentality that was common in Nukes before then.
Greetings,
I've been reading through posts on here with great interest because my son is interested in joining the Navy. He originally wanted to become a corpsman. However, due to several factors, among them: there would be a long waiting list, my wife's strong objection to his being attached to a Marine combat unit, the high score he recorded on the little "pre-Asvab" test they give in the recruiter's office, he's now looking at becoming a nuke.
Anyway, that's why I'm here.
As to the morale and attitude issue, please know that in my industry, semiconductor manufacturing, we still look very favorably upon resumes of former Navy nukes. Other than the almost certainty that they are quirky, we know their breadth of knowledge makes them good candidates to be equipment maintenance technicians in our fabs.
Greetings,
I've been reading through posts on here with great interest because my son is interested in joining the Navy. He originally wanted to become a corpsman. However, due to several factors, among them: there would be a long waiting list, my wife's strong objection to his being attached to a Marine combat unit, the high score he recorded on the little "pre-Asvab" test they give in the recruiter's office, he's now looking at becoming a nuke.
Anyway, that's why I'm here.
As to the morale and attitude issue, please know that in my industry, semiconductor manufacturing, we still look very favorably upon resumes of former Navy nukes. Other than the almost certainty that they are quirky, we know their breadth of knowledge makes them good candidates to be equipment maintenance technicians in our fabs.
Quirky... I like that. Very polite. ;)
whats the pay like :p
Cool, good luck to your son on his endeavours and the trials he will face if he goes nuke :)
Base pay for a fresh out with no experience in semiconductors would be in the neighborhood of $50K-$60K.
Thanks for the good luck wishes.
Good luck to your son...
Semper Fi to you...
Well a wise person once told me:Not only are they continuing to survive, the other E in the surface fleet just gave out big MONEY (http://www.military.com/news/article/navy-news/enterprise-lucky-13-pocket-1-million.html) (which is roughly 39 Ford Mustangs) to those who are keeping the model of surface nuclear power alive and well. They may be too [insert :old: :old: here] for many of your standards, but it's still steaming and selling jewelry and letter jackets on the messdecks. We also know that with it's new CO, it's remembering the dawn and dodging fog at every opportunity!
Every generation has complained about the generation that came after them, yet we continue to survive
We as LPO's, LCPO's, DIVO's, PA's, etc...need to stop complaining about the level of knowledge todays newbie's have. The current system is not going to change. So, it is a leadership challenge that WE as leaders need to overcome.I don't always agree with Gamecock, in fact I don't even like the SEC or the old ball coach... but this is one of the best statements on the subject that I have seen in some time. It was probably all that submarine time that gave him this Rocky insight on the topic.
BTW...when I was a young nub MM3 back in 1990 I occasionally heard the "old timers" complaining about the level of knowledge of the nubs. I'll bet if you if you went into the way back machine and emerged in the 1970's you probably would have heard some crusty MM1 complaining about the level of knowledge of his nubs. Same thing over and over.
I am pretty sure this thread is dead?!?!? But, I better make sure ... (http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/a143.gif)[OT] [OT] [hijack] [OT] [hijack] <3 [GH] [agree] :-> [OT] [boohoo] [devious] :dupe: [Flamer]
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