NukeWorker Forum

News and Discussions => Nuke News => Topic started by: atomicarcheologist on Jul 14, 2009, 04:36

Title: NPUA
Post by: atomicarcheologist on Jul 14, 2009, 04:36
I have been hearing about the NPUA while in the trenches, holes, and other excavations in the outside world.  Is this group doing any real organizing work for the power plant HP techs?  Have they made any statements regarding DOE personnel?  Thanks for your responses.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Jul 14, 2009, 10:34
Wisps of smoke, no fire.  Bartlett has staffed all the SGRs and is looking good to fill all the fall outages, despite call for "holdout."

Couldn't pick a worse time to attempt to herd RP cats.  Everybody just wants work.....
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Dave Warren on Jul 15, 2009, 09:36
I have been hearing about the NPUA while in the trenches, holes, and other excavations in the outside world.  Is this group doing any real organizing work for the power plant HP techs?  Have they made any statements regarding DOE personnel?  Thanks for your responses.

This is the latest news from Kevin and the crew: http://www.npua.org/news/index.htm

This is the home page: http://www.npua.org/index.html

I think you will find that they are making a very conscious effort to do the right thing. This type of thing takes time and they are going about it the right way. I can say one thing. They are taking the time and putting forth the effort to lay the groundwork for equality between the RP ranks. No one else is stepping up and taking charge and they have the balls to do it. Kudos to them.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: withroaj on Jul 21, 2009, 11:00
http://www.npua .org/index.html

It's a 'dot-org.'  The above link will take you there. (No it won't.  For some reason the site doesn't wanna show .org)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: desertdog on Jul 21, 2009, 10:19
Quite possibly specifically targeted, a guess.....?  I'm sure there is no animosity between the Bartlett backed Nukeworker (which sells its outage schedules) vs. the NPUA which publishes just as accurate and/or more accurate outage schedules for free.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: DJ@Retired on Jul 22, 2009, 09:31
Quite possibly specifically targeted, a guess.....?  I'm sure there is no animosity between the Bartlett backed Nukeworker (which sells its outage schedules) vs. the NPUA which publishes just as accurate and/or more accurate outage schedules for free.
Really. Do they supply a open forum? Do they offer email?  Mike does this site with a high band use rate which means its needs to be paid for and if you where or are a gold member you can get the outage schedules for free. By the way one of  the reason people know about the NPUA is this site. Also the fact this is a Bartlett sponsored site does not mean it is controlled by them.
I'm a Union Steward and have tried to contact the NPUA. All I get for replies is a news letter on holding out.  The plan is sounded but the support is weak.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jul 22, 2009, 12:07
They do offer a forum, but it is not as full of information as NukeWorker.

The outage schedules have incorrect federal per diem rates for some locations:

Ginna is listed as $145, the actual federal rate is $109.

Palo Verde is listed as $144, actual is $181

Beaver Valley is listed at $168, actual federal is $109.

You might also notice that they highlighted in red the fact that Diablo Canyon is paying the federal per diem rate, but did not afford the same special treatment to several sites that are paying at or above the federal rate.  Do we detect a little bias?  Of course, the GSA published rates are only good until the end of the fiscal year, but it is also very likely that they will actually go down as of October 1.  So, there will be a bit of a tax trap at for a few folks this year unless they adjust their rates to match the GSA published rates.  All in all, I appreciate them putting out the information, but it is nothing that we couldn't find out (with a bit more accuracy) by spending a minute or two on the phone or online elsewhere. You might reconsider your use of the term "accurate" in any case.

The site is quite professional in appearance, but the content leaves quite a bit to be desired.  I'm still waiting to know what their plans are other than hoping that every tech will hold out this year and sign with one of their sponsored companies.

Bartlett is a big supporter of NukeWorker.com but I am not aware of a single instance where they have tried to use that sponsorship to control the content of this site in any way.  There is a plethora of negative posts here on this site about Bartlett, and I have not seen any attempt to remove, edit, or control those posts as long as they comply with the forum rules.  What do you suppose NPUA would do if you bashed them on their site?  Hmmmmm?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Dave Warren on Jul 22, 2009, 12:28
Actually BeerCourt, I haven't heard a peep out of Rennhack in awhile.

We haven't smited each other for s***s and giggles in awhile either.

Are you up there hunting Wolverines, Rennhack?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 22, 2009, 02:08
Actually BeerCourt, I haven't heard a peep out of Rennhack in awhile.
We haven't smited each other for s***s and giggles in awhile either.
Are you up there hunting Wolverines, Rennhack?

Dave, Flag on the play. There is nothing in that post about NPUA.  You are off topic.  I would think that now that you are married, you would be better at following the rules. ;)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: DJ@Retired on Jul 22, 2009, 10:37
Oh I almost forgot. Kudos to you Dave Warren. Glad you feel the way you do about the NPUA. It's been a struggle for them but like you I believe it can and will work. Just takes some time and lots of effort from lots of people.

Jeff, I was not bashing anyone. But stating facts for desert dog. About this site. As far as NPUA is concerned I have offered to help and no responses as of yet....I do know this if we start with the deconners it would be easier to get done. I do not want to explain why for good reason. But if you think about it a light should go on in above your head.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Dave Warren on Jul 23, 2009, 07:24
Oh I almost forgot. Kudos to you Dave Warren. Glad you feel the way you do about the NPUA. It's been a struggle for them but like you I believe it can and will work. Just takes some time and lots of effort from lots of people.

I look at it this way, Jeff.
As a Rad Engineer or ALARA Planner, you will make $35-$42 bucks an hour at "most" places.
The rates that NPUA is "proposing" are $45 an hour for the same job.
Someone who I am not paying, is trying to get me from a $3 to $10 an hour raise and I didn't even ask them to. All I have to do is send them a resume and sign a confidentiality agreement.
The ultimate no-brainer.
I don't plan on doing a whole lot of outage work as I am in my mid-40's but still younger than most of these geezers....:). But in 22 years and 4 months in this industry, I have not seen anyone as aggressive as they have been regarding a union or fighting for higher wages. They may be just pi**in in the wind but at least they are putting their names and reputations on the line for someone else besides themselves. And in today's world, that tells me something about their character.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Dave Warren on Jul 23, 2009, 10:12
Rumor is third time's the charm,.....

Look. This is my second time in 44 years. I would say that is pretty darn responsible.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jul 23, 2009, 10:19
This is the voice of union "leadership"....a fine example of why every attempt to organize has failed.

I don't think DJ is speaking as a leader of this or any union in this case.  It's a little unfair to characterize him that way.

Yeah, the little bulb lit up over my head right away.  It's pretty obvious, and rather intelligent to consider organizing the deconners first.  You probably picked up on the reason right away too.  Now that the idea is out there, I wonder why nobody has mentioned it before.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Jul 23, 2009, 12:35
I feel compelled to post. If the masses knew the level of personal investment of time and money on this movement by Kevin, I think it might make the skeptics take another look instead of simply dismissing the movement as another half assed attempt to get us caught up. I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate like these guys are. If you think it might be for personal gain, remember, the leadership is elected going forward. He has put his head out there along with a few others to try and make a difference for us all. A failure could mean the risk professional suicide, a success could mean a better wage for all of us but the union board could still be voted out at some point in the future. I would encourage everyone to give the NPUA the benefit of the doubt for a long enough period to allow you to investigate deeper. I have a hard time believing that NPUA staff has been unavailable for anyones questions or concerns.

I don't know if the union is right and I have traditionally been anti-union. But I will say that I like what the NPUA has to say so far and I certainly don't have any better ideas to get us where we need to be. I support the idea.

For all those who want to nit pick the small stuff like the layout of the website, or the completeness of the forum area etc. Do you really think that in the early stages of a movement like this, everything is going to look and run like an operationally excellent company with many years of refinement? Give them a break and look through the small stuff to keep your eye on the goal. Or, be happy with your $25/hour, capped travel, substandard per-diem, etc. etc. etc.

If you are ill informed on the NPUA, find out more before spreading negative uninformed babble. I believe that our group is an intelligent group, also very opinionated and independent. These traits have also been the foundation of our failure to come together and make contract RP work a more stable way to make a living.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Jul 23, 2009, 07:18
Wisps of smoke, no fire.  Bartlett has staffed all the SGRs and is looking good to fill all the fall outages, despite call for "holdout."

Couldn't pick a worse time to attempt to herd RP cats.  Everybody just wants work.....

Looking good to fill all the fall outages? You have got to know something the rest of us don't, do tell.

The rough math of outages vs # of techs seems off all by it self, now add the new DOE work. Unless there are going to be a tremendous amount of Jr. positions available (working Jr's, which is unheard of in commercial plants for the most part) or someone magically turns Jr's and 18.1 techs into ANSI 3.1 techs, there is going to be a shortage. Doesn't really matter about holding out (not that it would hurt), there will be a shortage either way. Will they survive? Don't know. I know the outages will get done one way or another, but I am willing to bet that there will be several outages that are going to simply suck to work at as a RP tech due to short staffing. Unless you are working these outages on a back up contract making $35 and fed. per-diem with uncapped travel...that should ease the pain. In fact, it would put a great big grin on my face while doing 10 hours/shift in the can.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Jul 23, 2009, 10:27
The fall outages will be successfully completed.  SGRs are already staffed up.  RPMs have been talking for months about strategies to mitigate shortage and work rule impact...sharing, juniors, zone covg., remote cong., community college program participants, shorter in-processing, etc.  Easy money.

Welders are a problem.  Can't weld with a $40 video camera or a community college trainee.  RP is NOT a problem. Those seeking to opportunistically leverage this fall's shortage are naive and self-impressed.  They may soon find themselves permanently replaced by a networked alarming dosimeter.   
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Jul 23, 2009, 11:14
Dear Meterswangin,
I already know I am not as important as a welder.  They make more , but you are wrong.  Sr. Techs are not toilet paper.  My hat is off to the efforts of NPUA and the personnel efforts for all.  There are so few techs that do anything for others.  I can tell where you stand.  Take care off yourself because I for one do not have your back.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: thenukeman on Jul 24, 2009, 10:02
It just does not seem that it will work.  Staffing companies will go through their lists and get people to commit,  That is their job, no one should be mad about it. People who won't commit or decommit will be on the outside looking in.  Thats my opinion and I could be wrong!!!  If there is a way NPUA has found to leverage a few bucks and they do it I will applaud them.  But with shared resources( IF utilitys were really short they could borrow from others) and people looking after number 1 , I doubt it.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Jul 24, 2009, 10:38
Fume not.  Reality bites.

RP is a small sideshow in the nuclear circus.  And getting much, much smaller.  Remember big radwaste groups, onsite laundry operations, dosimetry labs, multiple control points, frisking "dogpounds?"  All gone.  Jobs gone.

So be not dismayed as the value of the Road Tech continues to decline.  Tis the natural order of things.  Began long ago, and will continue as utilities improve their business models.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: justme on Jul 25, 2009, 10:58
I 'm wondering???
 How many outages can they staff as backup?

 How many of the resumes that they have are people who are working long term stuff, and won't work outages this fall, or are already staffed at outages with Bartlett and Atlantic, but put their resumes with the NPUA company as a backup.?

Wouldn't backing out on Bartlett or Atlantic to work a backup with the NPUA be cutting into what they are trying to stop?

Seems to me, if they are using the same tactics in presenting resumes of people that have no intention of, or are already staffed at, fall outages, they are no better than the practices that are out there now.

Just wondering, not attacking anyone here.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: 11 for 12 on Jul 26, 2009, 05:03
So what are you wondering????
Did you summit your resume with them yet?
Sounds like you are attacking them and have some problem with them trying to help the technicans.
What they are trying to do is help all of us earn a better living.
I was just wondering if you would ever work for them if they got  contracts.
If the techs are already working it won't really make a difference.
How about when bartlett and atlantic both summit your resumes to the same plant.If your working for one  i guess you cant go with the other.
The  NPUA are not trying to put anybody out of bizz. They just are trying to get the wages up to at least house tech levels and fed. per diem rate for all your trouble of traveling and exp's.
So you can earn what you deserve.
maybe even get you some better health coverage unless that obama mortages the country to give us all it for free.

Just wondering what would you suggestion be to do it the right way?
I 'm wondering???
 How many outages can they staff as backup?

 How many of the resumes that they have are people who are working long term stuff, and won't work outages this fall, or are already staffed at outages with Bartlett and Atlantic, but put their resumes with the NPUA company as a backup.?

Wouldn't backing out on Bartlett or Atlantic to work a backup with the NPUA be cutting into what they are trying to stop?

Seems to me, if they are using the same tactics in presenting resumes of people that have no intention of, or are already staffed at, fall outages, they are no better than the practices that are out there now.

Just wondering, not attacking anyone here.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Jul 26, 2009, 06:28
Trying to boost wages up to what the house techs are making PLUS fed per diem rates?!!  Holy pipedream, Batman.

No education beyond high school required.  3 years experience running a mop and frisker and you are in.  Then you expect travel in, travel out, $37/hr and $200+/day tax free diem?

No offense, amigo, but look around.  Sharp, industrious, capable. college-educated professionals of all stripes are tending bar and slinging coffee these days for lack of work.  If you think mullet-shorn Bubba Breakroom has any kind of leverage in this market you need to report for a fresh MMPI.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: thenukeman on Jul 26, 2009, 10:50
I would say  at least 15 Conus states have 200 diem and most states you can get 180 for some cities.  Saying this I have to say NPUA would seem to have a uphill battle on a Ice Road. Yes Techs get chumped about 50 dollars a day or more diem LOL.  However most people find hovels and make the 50 back so they break even.  LOL 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: 11 for 12 on Jul 27, 2009, 12:37
Hello McFly anybody home????
 Why shouldn't we get as much as a house tech whe it come to supporting an outage thats what we do because at most plants the house techs don't cover almost any of the work it' the contractors.
There is a fla. palnt where some house techs haven't been in the can for more than 10 yrs
And as far as per diem your way out of touch with the rates.
oh by the way have you seen the rates that diablo pays their contract techs.
So it isnt inpossible
Trying to boost wages up to what the house techs are making PLUS fed per diem rates?!!  Holy pipedream, Batman.

No education beyond high school required.  3 years experience running a mop and frisker and you are in.  Then you expect travel in, travel out, $37/hr and $200+/day tax free diem?

No offense, amigo, but look around.  Sharp, industrious, capable. college-educated professionals of all stripes are tending bar and slinging coffee these days for lack of work.  If you think mullet-shorn Bubba Breakroom has any kind of leverage in this market you need to report for a fresh MMPI.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Jul 27, 2009, 12:56
Pine not for what you feel worth, my friend.  Meaningless in the marketplace.

Degreed RPs from Laguna Verde will work their asses off...and do, for half what you "feel" worth.

One sleepy house tech can remotely cover 3 high rad jobs by video/teledosimetry with doughnuts in hand for a fraction of what a crew of 3-in-3-out diemDuds "feel" worth.

The Work Hour Rule will dilute your OT and further disrupt the market.  Utilities are accelerating programs to wean themselves off outage.  And they are not finding it difficult to do.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: justme on Jul 27, 2009, 08:24
So what are you wondering????
Did you summit your resume with them yet?
Sounds like you are attacking them and have some problem with them trying to help the technicans.
What they are trying to do is help all of us earn a better living.
I was just wondering if you would ever work for them if they got  contracts.
If the techs are already working it won't really make a difference.
How about when bartlett and atlantic both summit your resumes to the same plant.If your working for one  i guess you cant go with the other.
The  NPUA are not trying to put anybody out of bizz. They just are trying to get the wages up to at least house tech levels and fed. per diem rate for all your trouble of traveling and exp's.
So you can earn what you deserve.
maybe even get you some better health coverage unless that obama mortages the country to give us all it for free.

Just wondering what would you suggestion be to do it the right way?


Speaking of attacking????
As I stated, I wasn't attacking, just asking questions.  If one doesn't ask, one doesn't know.
Do you just jump into anything without proper information.  .  Would you work for them or are you all talk?  Don't assume anything about me and I won't about you.
NPUA can be a good thing, just not there yet. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: justme on Jul 27, 2009, 08:30
Don't forget about DCPP...  you work for the utility directly, not through another company or union.  You only pay dues when you work.
NPUA can't compare itself to this and doesn't.  They are different from each other.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: UncaBuffalo on Jul 27, 2009, 09:01
Pine not for what you feel worth, my friend.  Meaningless in the marketplace.

Degreed RPs from Laguna Verde will work their asses off...and do, for half what you "feel" worth.

One sleepy house tech can remotely cover 3 high rad jobs by video/teledosimetry with doughnuts in hand for a fraction of what a crew of 3-in-3-out diemDuds "feel" worth.

The Work Hour Rule will dilute your OT and further disrupt the market.  Utilities are accelerating programs to wean themselves off outage.  And they are not finding it difficult to do.

I have to ring in on that one.  Yeah, some of the techs from south of the border work hard...some don't...just like any other category of techs you can give me...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Hoser on Jul 27, 2009, 10:43
Interesting thread. But... please don't compare house utility Radiation Protection / Health Physics wages  with the contractor's unless you add in the total values. Contractor R.Ps /H.Ps for the most part, do not get any of the added benefits that have a real monetary value such as short and long term disability, paid sick time, paid new dad / mom time etc.
As for the Per-diem, that should never be on the contract table period. There is a national publication  that our country's gov. employees and Representatives use and that should be the simple guide. The kiss principle should really apply; my opinion ;-)
Also it is my opinion that  we really need to remove the viewed responsibility of the Utility's and Contract companies of the wages of the technicians. Technicians whether house or contract, are a market driven force. The utilities are bound to their shareholders and can only do so by getting the best value for the least cost to maximize their shareholder investments. They will pay the market price. The contract companies will do what they can do stay in business by keeping as many products they manage, there by earning the % profit share that they have decided on. In a nut shell, the ball is in our court " technicians ". My father " bless his soul " used to say: " your worth what you are willing to work for ...so.. ifin your not happy.. get off MY boat ".
If anything, the NPUA can and should be a leader in the publication of true values. It is a labor organization. At this time, the only losers the last 15 years are the contract technicians and we are the ones who are directly responsible.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retired nuke on Jul 27, 2009, 11:05
Interesting thread. But... please don't compare house utility Radiation Protection / Health Physics wages  with the contractor's unless you add in the total values. Contractor R.Ps /H.Ps for the most part, do not get any of the added benefits that have a real monetary value such as short and long term disability, paid sick time, paid new dad / mom time etc.
As for the Per-diem, that should never be on the contract table period. There is a national publication  that our country's gov. employees and Representatives use and that should be the simple guide. The kiss principle should really apply; my opinion ;-)
Also it is my opinion that  we really need to remove the viewed responsibility of the Utility's and Contract companies of the wages of the technicians. Technicians whether house or contract, are a market driven force. The utilities are bound to their shareholders and can only do so by getting the best value for the least cost to maximize their shareholder investments. They will pay the market price. The contract companies will do what they can do stay in business by keeping as many products they manage, there by earning the % profit share that they have decided on. In a nut shell, the ball is in our court " technicians ". My father " bless his soul " used to say: " your worth what you are willing to work for ...so.. ifin your not happy.. get off MY boat ".
If anything, the NPUA can and should be a leader in the publication of true values. It is a labor organization. At this time, the only losers the last 15 years are the contract technicians and we are the ones who are directly responsible.
Well said Don.  ;)
I don't see the contract worker getting any leverage. It's been tried in the past, even with previous DOE ramp ups - remember when all those techs went to Fernald / Mound / RFETS etc? nothing changed.
If you want house tech wages, you gonna have to get a house tech job.
Too many years of 3 in 3 out break room commandos, and utilities short staffing, and making it, have shown that RPs, who do not produce anything, are not high dollar requirements.
 :-\
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Hoser on Jul 27, 2009, 11:36
get a house tech job.

I read that !  8) 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Jul 27, 2009, 07:51
Pine not for what you feel worth, my friend.  Meaningless in the marketplace.

Degreed RPs from Laguna Verde will work their asses off...and do, for half what you "feel" worth.

One sleepy house tech can remotely cover 3 high rad jobs by video/teledosimetry with doughnuts in hand for a fraction of what a crew of 3-in-3-out diemDuds "feel" worth.

The Work Hour Rule will dilute your OT and further disrupt the market.  Utilities are accelerating programs to wean themselves off outage.  And they are not finding it difficult to do.


You have either been away from the outage rounds for too long and don't remember, or, you were never there and speak with no basis. Your comment of covering 3 high rad jobs with donuts in hand is a pretty good indicator of what quality of coverage can be expected by many house techs if the contractors went away. That's if you can find them or wake them to do the remote coverage. Most of your posts have a negative bias toward contract techs, that usually means that you have never been one. But remember, many many MANY rent-a-techs have been house techs before. Some have been many times. Many others come right out of the Navy or shipyard and have a very strong RP base. The idea that house techs are more trained is true, if you are talking about shift work in an operating unit. As far as experience goes, you are only going to get real outage, job coverage experience from being a traveler.

I just realized that I am wasting valuable time splitting hairs. You think contract techs deserve less $ than a house tech for doing most of the RP work at your outages, and you are dead wrong! Why don't you hit the road for a couple of years and get back to us when you have enough experience to speak about this subject and be taken seriously. Maybe let us know what plant you work at so we traveling techs can be forewarned that the help will not be appreciated.

If you think there are no staffing problems this fall for RP's, that is really the most obvious sign that you are out of touch with the outage/contract scene. What ever, I'm done.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Jul 27, 2009, 09:27
Damn it Brother Brett!

Ya, I know.

Someone gets on here and asks about the NPUA and then somehow the thread turns into how worthless meterswangin thinks contract techs are.

The facts are this. There are some worthless RP folks on both sides of the fence, and unfortunately those are the ones that people remember. They don't remember the contract tech that was competent, came to work and took care of business. The techs on the road that match the latter are the majority IMO. I also know plenty of great house guys, Palo, Cook, Hatch all have examples of this. So whats with the stone throwing?! It's immature and I appologize for getting sucked into it too.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: azkidd on Jul 27, 2009, 09:38
I,m sorry.....but this is getting into another topic...another thread dealing with...union issues.  NPUA hasn't even thought about submitting a contract negotiation yet!!  Lets put Union issues where they belong.  I believe the point has been made about NPUA...  go to the website, see what they have to say, give them your input (if any), so be it.  Put Union issues, biases' etc on the other thread.

Thank You
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Jul 27, 2009, 09:57
Take no offense, dear Brett.  The point is not to malign, but discuss.

Fact:  The market is changing drastically for road techs.

Fact:  Many (some on this list) feel entitled, and thus disrespected.  NPUA seeks to capitalize.

Fact:  Good or not, disrespected or not, Diem-Techs are going the way of the dodo bird.

So don't attack...adapt.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: 11 for 12 on Jul 27, 2009, 10:40
Pine not for what you feel worth, my friend.  Meaningless in the marketplace.

Degreed RPs from Laguna Verde will work their asses off...and do, for half what you "feel" worth.

One sleepy house tech can remotely cover 3 high rad jobs by video/teledosimetry with doughnuts in hand for a fraction of what a crew of 3-in-3-out diemDuds "feel" worth.

The Work Hour Rule will dilute your OT and further disrupt the market.  Utilities are accelerating programs to wean themselves off outage.  And they are not finding it difficult to do.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: 11 for 12 on Jul 27, 2009, 11:14
Oh I got to answer this!
First off what does that have to do with the price of a dozen eggs in china that the mexicans work hard?
First off have you ever worked with them some are very good and some are as lazy as the day is long just like some of our gringo techs.
 
Also at  your plant you sound like you got some pretty worthless house techs ,
if they are covering 3 locked high rad jobs sleeping.
It sounds like th only thing you guys are really concerned about at your plant is if the doughnuts are powdered or cream filled.

Sounds like you need some new techs at your plant with those kinds of work practices

Also if the plants ween off of us your house techs might have to get off playing on the internet and cover some work.

 

Pine not for what you feel worth, my friend.  Meaningless in the marketplace.

Degreed RPs from Laguna Verde will work their asses off...and do, for half what you "feel" worth.

One sleepy house tech can remotely cover 3 high rad jobs by video/teledosimetry with doughnuts in hand for a fraction of what a crew of 3-in-3-out diemDuds "feel" worth.

The Work Hour Rule will dilute your OT and further disrupt the market.  Utilities are accelerating programs to wean themselves off outage.  And they are not finding it difficult to do.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: 11 for 12 on Jul 27, 2009, 11:41
Take no offense, dear Brett.  The point is not to malign, but discuss.

Fact:  The market is changing drastically for road techs.

Fact:  Many (some on this list) feel entitled, and thus disrespected.  NPUA seeks to capitalize.

Fact:  Good or not, disrespected or not, Diem-Techs are going the way of the dodo bird.

So don't attack...adapt.
The npua is trying to help make the techs more money and benifits they  deserve.
As far as your self rightous thinking,anwser me this do you feel that sr house techs deserve to make more money than contract sr rp's i would like to here an answer to that question.

AS far as us going the way of dodo bird when we die off the sloughs will rule the world and have to get off their ass's do some work for a change because lets face it during an outage the contractors do mostly all the work. It's ok you can say it it's all right to say the contract techs due most of the work.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Dave Warren on Jul 28, 2009, 10:56
Marssim, you have been out in the dirt way too long.
Talking about bulls and herds and what not.

I think alot of people are getting their feelings hurt here because as we all know NPUA and Bartlett are not the best of friends.
There are people here with a certain amount of allegiance to Bartlett.
The Bartlett lemmings see the NPUA as a threat.
Here are some lines from the great movie, "The Warriors", altered slightly by Dave Warren.......

Can you count, suckers? I say, the future is ours... if you can count!

Now, look what we have here before us. We got the Atlantic Group sitting next to The Bartlett Boys. We've got DeNuke right by CSI. Nobody is wasting nobody. That... is a miracle. And miracles is the way things ought to be.
 
You're standing right now with nine delegates from 100 power plants. And there's over a hundred more. That's 20,000 hardcore members. Forty-thousand, counting affiliates, and twenty-thousand more, not organized, but ready to fight: 60,000 soldiers! Now, there ain't but 20,000 house techs in the whole town.
Can you dig it?
 Yeah.
 Yeah!
Cyrus: Can you dig it?
Gang Members: YEAH!
  Now, here's the sum total: One gang could run this city! One gang. Nothing would move without us allowing it to happen. We could tax the crime syndicates, the police, because WE got the streets, suckers! Can you dig it?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: xobxdoc on Jul 28, 2009, 11:59
  Now, here's the sum total: One gang could run this city! One gang. Nothing would move without us allowing it to happen. We could tax the crime syndicates, the police, because WE got the streets, suckers! Can you dig it?

[/quote]

Isn't it right about here where Cyrus got blown away?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: thenukeman on Jul 28, 2009, 08:26


Can you dig it.  LOL  The Warriors
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: SoCal on Aug 17, 2009, 11:55
Did everyone hear?
The NPUA (via Spectrum), got the contract at Wolf Creek!  35 & 109 with HARD start and stop dates.  

This could be the start of a beautiful friendship...    :)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: 11 for 12 on Aug 18, 2009, 12:21
CONGRATS TO NPUA its been a long time coming and i hope it makes some compitition and helps out all the techs with better pay and bennies. We tried in 90 and this time i hope the techs support the movement towards a better life
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Aug 18, 2009, 10:47
Did everyone hear?
The NPUA (via Spectrum), got the contract at Wolf Creek!  35 & 109 with HARD start and stop dates.  

This could be the start of a beautiful friendship...    :)

Hopefully the first of many! Congratulations NPUA!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Aug 18, 2009, 11:13
I was just wondering who got the contract. Was it the NPUA or Spectrum. It was my understanding that the NPUA is a Union type organization that bargained for its members and would not be bidding on any particular contract at a job site. If I misunderstood what the NPUA is please let me know. So I take it that Spectrum got the contract and the NPUA has a contract with Spectrum and anyone that accepts a job there would have the NPUA  as their bargaining voice. Please make sure that we are all informed of what is actually going on here.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: UncaBuffalo on Aug 18, 2009, 12:18
I was just wondering who got the contract. Was it the NPUA or Spectrum. It was my understanding that the NPUA is a Union type organization that bargained for its members and would not be bidding on any particular contract at a job site. If I misunderstood what the NPUA is please let me know. So I take it that Spectrum got the contract and the NPUA has a contract with Spectrum and anyone that accepts a job there would have the NPUA  as their bargaining voice. Please make sure that we are all informed of what is actually going on here.

Yeah, it's Spectrum that has the contract, but they will only be hiring union personnel (thru NPUA), so...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Aug 18, 2009, 04:40
Yeah, it's Spectrum that has the contract, but they will only be hiring union personnel (thru NPUA), so...

According to Spectrum they are hiring through the NPUA.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: UncaBuffalo on Aug 18, 2009, 05:14
Yeah, it's Spectrum that has the contract, but they will only be hiring union personnel (thru NPUA), so...
According to Spectrum they are hiring through the NPUA.

Yes.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Aug 18, 2009, 05:15
According to NPUA:

Quote
Wolf Creek has awarded Spectrum Technical Group a split contract for the October 10th, 2009 outage that is scheduled to last until November 22nd. There are 59 Senior RP positions paying as high as $40/hour with the federal per Diem and travel rates. This is the first of many we hope to be supporting this fall.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: UncaBuffalo on Aug 18, 2009, 05:23
Yeah!  $40 an hour is enough that a house tech has to start looking at available vacation hours!  :)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: SoCal on Aug 20, 2009, 02:54
Split contract? --- WHO CARES?!?!
We all deserve the pay raise we've needed for the past 10-20 years right?!?!
Other union craft have been getting their due for years, haven't they?
How many outages have we all been to that have the union trades making more than us - PLUS the bennies?
Too many for me to count, that's for sure.
Which job are you going to take?  The higher paying one of course!
And what happens when EVERYONE wants to work ONLY for the higher paying union/company?  That's right, the competitors must follow or go quietly into the night.  And we all start getting what we have deserved for a very long time.
Though this will only last as long as we all support the people/union/company that will consistently fight for giving us our fair share.  Falter in this and things will go back to the old ways (pay and standard practices in general) - YOU CAN GAURANTEE IT.
Sometime ago the thinking in the nuke world changed to, "You all are lucky to have jobs in the first place - you all need us."  This is WRONG.  truth is "They need us."  Without us my fellow RadPro's, they cannot do what they need to do every 18-24 months.  They must be reminded of it now.
Christ, we are not being greedy are we?  I think we all just want what is fair as far as skilled trades go.  Because we ARE A SKILLED TRADE - aren't we?!?!  Go ahead and fire away everyone, I appreciate ALL feedback.  God bless and good night....
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Aug 20, 2009, 02:10
Anybody want to guess which techs will be laid off first?
Split contract with one paying higher than the other means don't pay for your hotel by the week.  Of course, if both contracts pay the same....  there will be non-union techs making the same $40 and thumbing their noses at the members.  Always happens that way. 

Will the NPUA take punitive action against members who work non-union?  This is a long-standing practice of unions that is just about necessary to maintain the solidarity of the membership.  So, my question still stands -- if you work this contract for Spectrum, and they don't get another contract for the rest of the year, will the NPUA members be allowed to work for Bartlett and damage the union, or will they be banned from non-union work at the risk of losing their membership?

It is a tough question to answer, but only ONE answer is going to come out of a REAL union.  Are they willing to say it out loud?  Of course, a REAL union would also be trying to organize the Bartlett and Atlantic employees instead of steering them to other companies.  That is what real unions do.  Getting into bed with one company to help them drive down the competition.... real unions don't do that.

So, let's see which this one is.  Has anyone out there been approached by them to organize Bartlett or Atlantic employees?   HMMMMM??
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Buddy Sorrell on Aug 20, 2009, 03:26
I'm already making +$40/hr as a Sr. HP this fall, all without a stinking union.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Aug 20, 2009, 04:28
I was just reading all these posts again and was thinking whether or not I could afford to work 4 weeks every two years and still maintain my lifestyle. I doubt if I could. I myself was wondering why the NPUA hasn't tried to get contracts with Bartlett and Atlantic along with Spectrum and organize all the Techs in the industry. I have recieved only one e-mail from NPUA and when I didn't answer it they never sent anything else. I personally have been a member of a Union ( retail clerks international) when I was younger. I know a little bit about how unions run, Usually the union would try to get workers(Techs) to sign a card agreeing to join and then they would go to the company, that the techs work for ,and present to them. Now with that being said it seems to me that Spectrum and the NPUA has a contract or agreement of some type. Which is good but only if Spectrum can bid on every job out there and get enough work to keep people working at least as much as Bartlett or Atlantic is now. It will take months or maybe even years for that to happen because a lot of contracts are already signed with the other companies for the spring and fall seasons next year. It seems to me that the NPUA should be approaching all Techs and letting us know what is in this for us in the future. I haven't seen anything about the "contract" with Spectrum except pay rates and start and stop dates. That isn't enough for me to jump on the bandwagon. I don't make as much maybe as a Spectrum Tech does but at least I have only collected 5 weeks of unemployment since 1995. Work hard, be on time and don't lay out and you will keep working too if you want to.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: SoCal on Aug 20, 2009, 06:37
Well said Frank!  I know you wanted to type that all out in caps - didn't you!  C'mon, admit it :O)
Beer & Frank - in a nutshell:
1.  The reason that the NPUA went with Spectrum is not to try to run somebody else out of business or to drive up wages.  It is because
     Bartlett/Atlantic did NOT want anything to do with the NPUA.  Hell, the only division of Atlantic that is not union right now
     is the RP one!  Pull your heads out of the sand.
2.  Yes, bart/atl has contracts beyond this year with some of the other utilities.  Wolf Creek was one of them.  Remember?!?!  As I said in
     my last post, as long as we support the union/company that gives us what we deserve, the only ones left standing will be the ones
     that give us what we deserve.
3.  I'm sure that if you ask any of the union members or its management if they care who/how/where they get their fair wages from (be it the
     NPUA, Spectrum, Bartlett, Atlantic), they couldn't give a rat's a--.  Just as long as they get them (this includes insurance, pension, etc...).
4.  The isn't really a even question of pro or anti union really & there is no vendetta against bart or atl either.  It's a question of getting what
     we deserve.
  If bart/atl had started doing that in the first place, the NPUA would have never been formed.

     I'll tell everyone this though; the NPUA and Spectrum stepped up to the plate first though.  And I didn't see bart/atl do anything to participate, negotiate, contact, or reply in any way, shape, or form to say, "Hey guys your right, it's time for a change so let's talk".  Best regards all... (BTW, Frank was right you know.  Read his posts again only more slowly this time).
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: ruth13 on Aug 20, 2009, 11:48
Will the NPUA take punitive action against members who work non-union?  This is a long-standing practice of unions that is just about necessary to maintain the solidarity of the membership.  So, my question still stands -- if you work this contract for Spectrum, and they don't get another contract for the rest of the year, will the NPUA members be allowed to work for Bartlett and damage the union, or will they be banned from non-union work at the risk of losing their membership?
My guess is that it will be the other way around - the techs who work with Spectrum are most likely to be "banned" by Bartlett/Atlantic.....
I hope not...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: thenukeman on Aug 21, 2009, 08:35
You can hire who you want for outages.  I would hire my most loyal techs then give crumbs to the rest if I had them.  I would not blame Bartlett or Atlantic for doing this.  Just smart business, not antiunion.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Aug 21, 2009, 10:33
First let me say, I am pro Union and always have been. Now to my questions...

1. For those of you who will be fortunate enough to work this outage with Spectrum/NPUA what are your plans for afterwards? Are you going to go elsewhere for the lower wages paid by the majority of the companies or are you going to sit at home and wait until they all come around and pay what Spectrum does?

2. I'd like to see Beercourts question answered:

"Will the NPUA take punitive action against members who work non-union?  This is a long-standing practice of unions that is just about necessary to maintain the solidarity of the membership.  So, my question still stands -- if you work this contract for Spectrum, and they don't get another contract for the rest of the year, will the NPUA members be allowed to work for Bartlett and damage the union, or will they be banned from non-union work at the risk of losing their membership?"


Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: SoCal on Aug 21, 2009, 11:27
Three minutes of self-initiated research would have answered that question.
If it looks like a bear, acts like a bear, & sounds like a bear - well, you know...
that has yet to be seen, after filling out info requests at the NPUA website, the focus of dialogue was what, when and how to pay my dues,...not my credentials,...
Like you said, "Three minutes of self-initiated research...".  There's also the telephone if you can't seem to find your answer.
not a balanced comparison, Diablo seriously scrutinizes which techs work Diablo, not anybody is accepted to fill those slots, 40/month is no guarantee that Diablo will accept your resume when proferred via the NPUA, but if you have seniority, Diablo should be guaranteed to you, otherwise the union fails one of it's fundamental precepts,.....
First, there will be scrutiny, rest assured.  Second, remember the union is brand new.  Seniority comes into play after each initial contract thereby succeeding at one of its fundamental precepts.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: SoCal on Aug 21, 2009, 11:53
still seems a bit skewed to pay union RP techs 40/hr and union Reactor Operators 28/hour
Has anyone ever heard of the saying that went something like, "There are a few things in life you should not go cheap on such as heart surgery, brakes for your car, etc..."?  Sounds like those RO's are dealing with some of same things we are right now.  Unless of course it's somewhere where the cost of living is phenomenally low.

Camella, if Spectrum does not have another contract, we all must do what we have to to support ourselves and families.  Take a job if you need to but TRY to support those who will treat you FAIRLY first.  There are plenty of jobs other jobs out there until the NPUA gets more work.  Understand that change is always painful and some sacrifices have to be made.  Believe me that it's partly because of some people's personal sacrifices that we are seeing the some of pay increases across the board.  As for your other Q, you won't be punished for working for nonunion jobs.  As I said you should try to support those with your best interests in mind first.  Understand that you can't just join and refuse EVERY job and not work for the union at all either.  Just paying dues will not cut it.  You have to support what you believe in and believe what you support.  If you talk the talk, then walk the walk and stand up for yourself (that was for everyone in general, not just you Camella).  :O)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: SoCal on Aug 21, 2009, 12:18
I'd like an answer to a few of my question now (with answers and not excuses).
Again, this is not pro union but more like pro what's best for all of us in general.

1.  Why do techs continue to accept substandard wages and benefits across the board when there ARE other options out there to increase their quality of life (something that has not happened in the past 15-20 years)?
2.  Why won't techs stand up for themselves and support change that is better for them in every facet and gives them what some have NEVER had (pensions, insurance, better quality of life, etc...) - at least as individuals?
3.  Why don't techs reach for that brass ring that's right in front of them right now when all the answers to these questions are being answered or are at least available to them?
4.  Why would anyone who is a proponent for change go back to work for someone who is not for that change?  Why would you do that if you can have it good, wether it be with the union or not?

I bet if you could ask some of the techs who have some of these better paying jobs right now (non union), if they would go back to work for someone who treats them unfairly again, they would unanimously answer no way.

Why don't we all stand up for ourselves right now and only go to work for employers who are ready to make that change(union or non union)?
God Bless and good luck to everyone...  :O)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Aug 21, 2009, 01:35
This is very good discussion.  Certainly, there will be a lot of questions that will be answered as time progresses, and not before that.

There is also going to be a lot of pain and sacrifice on the part of the members.  You don't get anything for free.  The cost of a strong union is paid by the members.  It remains to be seen if they will continue to be willing to pay it.

If you signed on to Wolf Creek just to get that one hit at $40/hr and go right to work for the non-union companies after that, your union will not survive.  Maybe there will be a small niche for the few who stick it out.  They will continue to make the big bucks on the few jobs as backup contracts.  The end-of-year total compensation may be no better than they are getting now, but will come from fewer weeks of work at fewer places.

For the individual tech, this is a small opportunity.  Thirty-four people will, for a short while, get what they have been seeking for a long time.  But, for the profession as a whole, this is small potatoes at this point.  One employer, with half of a contract, is a good start and nothing more.  To keep it going and growing, the individual techs will have to make a commitment.  They will have to face the prospect of no work for a while.  Standing firm often means standing in a lonely, exposed place.  Standing firm together makes a big difference, but you have to rely on others to join you in your resolve.  Can you?  Will your brothers and sisters be willing to stand with you, or will they all look out for themselves?  If your union allows them to remain in good standing while they work for the non-union shops, it is only breaking its own back.

If the NPUA is a good thing -- and I am not denying that it could be -- you have to commit to it wholly or it won't last.  It is too early at this point to know who will do that.  It is too soon to know if it is all true.  The proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating.

Let's have this talk again in December.  Lets see how many of the 34 are still on the team and how many have joined them.

Of course Bartlett and Atlantic have wanted nothing to do with this.  That is no news.  They haven't had a reason to engage the NPUA in discussions.  First of all, because their employees have not signed the cards to begin the process, and secondly because they don't have much to fear at this point from a startup outfit.  Give them a reason to want to be involved.  If they start losing work because they have no employees to staff their contracts, they have a few options to fix that.  One of which will be to negotiate the return of their best techs.  But if this is only a temporary setback they will not enter into a permanent solution.  Only the techs decide whether this is temporary or permanent.  If you want to get Bartlett and Atlantic to take you seriously, you need to take away their other options.  Right now, they have plenty of those.  They can sit and wait for their people to return.  They can grow their employee database by hiring and training new people.  They can offer a better product than their unionized competition.  They can negotiate with NPUA.  Or, they can do any and all of the above.  

If you have a lock on the most, best-trained, best-performing technicians, you take away all other options and they have to play at your level or quit.  On the other hand, if you have a tenuous hold on a few techs who are only in it for the money, they'll eat your lunch for you.

All this is why I have been so skeptical about this venture.  Right now, the ENTIRE discussion is about numbers of people and the price that it will take to get those numbers.  It has to be about quality.  A premium product demands a premium price.  Bulk quantities are always sold at a discount.  Decide once and for all which you are offering and stand on that.

If you are a member of this union, give the best you have to offer and demand it from your co-workers.  They represent you, and you represent them.  Make yourself worth the higher price and you will continue to get what you are willing to earn.

But, if you think for a minute that you "deserve" the better pay and treatment while you continue to perform at the level of the current tech population, get a clue.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: SoCal on Aug 21, 2009, 02:12
Marssim, it was not meant to be ANY kind of insult.
I don't operate that way.
I apologize for any misunderstanding.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Aug 21, 2009, 02:22
I'd like an answer to a few of my question now (with answers and not excuses).
Again, this is not pro union but more like pro what's best for all of us in general.

1.  Why do techs continue to accept substandard wages and benefits across the board when there ARE other options out there to increase their quality of life (something that has not happened in the past 15-20 years)?
2.  Why won't techs stand up for themselves and support change that is better for them in every facet and gives them what some have NEVER had (pensions, insurance, better quality of life, etc...) - at least as individuals?
3.  Why don't techs reach for that brass ring that's right in front of them right now when all the answers to these questions are being answered or are at least available to them?
4.  Why would anyone who is a proponent for change go back to work for someone who is not for that change?  Why would you do that if you can have it good, wether it be with the union or not?


1. Techs accept jobs wherever they can get them because they have bills to pay and need more than Minimum wage to pay them. Up until this week there were fewer choices  and even with the Spectrum contract there are still few choices. It's good that Spectrum has a high paying contract with the NPUA backing; however with 59 slots that are pretty much filled already that leaves about 99% of the techs out in the cold with no other choice. Work where you can or be homeless.
2. Same as answer to 1.
3. Same as answer to 1.
4. Same as answer to 1.
I was part of the walkout that was held in 1990 while working at Plant Hatch. I know that was a different type deal but the bottom line is still the same. Techs have to pay bills and eat to live. People couldn't hold out then and they can't hold out now and the Big Companies know this. If Spectrum can somehow get most of the back-ups, then more and more folks would be able to hold out a few weeks waiting for the back-up to bring them in. I don't think 59 positions for 900(just a guess) techs is all that great. I would love to be union and work where I wanted to and make millions of dollars but to me it just seems like it is going to take a long time for that to happen. I hope we all last long enough to see it.

  by the way henry have you ever been on the npua website?just curious:)

Yes, I visit the website on a regular basis and as a matter of fact I posed a question on Tuesday of this week through the sites e-mail link. I did this because someone here recommended that I go straight to the Horses mouth for an answer. So I did. The site said I would have and answer within 2 to 3 days. This is day 3 and I am still waiting.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Aug 21, 2009, 04:14

still seems a bit skewed to pay union RP techs 40/hr and union Reactor Operators 28/hour

lemme see; skin contamination prevention versus core meltdown prevention,...hmmmmmmm   ;)

(sic)

Excellent point on behalf of the Reactor Operators. They should be fighting too!

Frank and Socal, right on, thanks for posting.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: SoCal on Aug 22, 2009, 12:50
1. Techs accept jobs wherever they can get them because they have bills to pay and need more than Minimum wage to pay them. Up until this week there were fewer choices  and even with the Spectrum contract there are still few choices. It's good that Spectrum has a high paying contract with the NPUA backing; however with 59 slots that are pretty much filled already that leaves about 99% of the techs out in the cold with no other choice. Work where you can or be homeless.

  This is ABSOLUTELTY NOT TRUE.  There have been PLENTY of choices this summer and there still are.  There are OTHER choices & techs do not have to be left out in the cold or be homeless neither.
  Remember all out there who read this.  Like I've REPEATEDLY said before; this is not so much about the union as it is to NOT SUPPORT employers who will support change and start treating us all as skilled or professional workers.  Just like any other skilled trade.  The NPUA & Spectrum just happen to be the first to step up to the plate and bat for us.  So WHY NOT support them first?
  There are a ton of jobs out there right now paying seniors anywhere from 30.00-38.00/hr and 80-180/day with benefits!  And these are not with either bartlett nor atlantic.  I know because I have been contacted by almost all of them and I've networked for the rest starting back in May.  There are too many examples to list here & I'm sure ANY true road tech worth his/her salt know about these also because even while gainfully employed, you ALWAYS have your ear to the ground prospecting for your next job (if you want/need one that is).
  So with these other options in the front of your mind, I'm still waiting for decent answers to my questions...
  Take care all...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: SoCal on Aug 22, 2009, 04:15
  Like you Marssim, I'm not picking a fight either .  But it does sound like you are whining a lot though.
  You know, if you spent half as much time supporting ANY entity that will benefit your quality of life as you do complaining about issues (deconner & jr pay), that will probably never affect you for the rest of your life, you would be a great benefit to your fellow RP techs.
  As it is, you sound like (and yes, I could be wrong), one of the reasons ALL RP techs do NOT enjoy the quality of life enjoyed by other professionals/skilled workers in similar lines of work.
  So why don't you just stop worrying, complaining, & commenting on it?  I mean if you are against an increase in all of your fellow techs' way of life, why don't you just say so?
  I'll be the first to admit that the NPUA/Spectrum deal may not be perfect, but NOTHING IS - is it?  Can you name me any union or company (related to our field of course), that is?  I'd like to hear about it.  Just like this isn't the perfect country on Earth, but damn sure if it isn't the best one there is.  So if your looking for perfection, that's fine.  Just go somewhere else and find it because I admit that it isn't here.
  With due respect...
P.S.  I'm still waiting for anyone to answer my questions  :O)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HydroDave63 on Aug 22, 2009, 09:10
  Like you Marssim, I'm not picking a fight either .  But it does sound like you are whining a lot though.
  You know, if you spent half as much time

1. Yes, that is picking a fight

2. Marssim has more time on the crapper in the RCA than you do on this forum.... why not simply take a deep breath, and see that the questions being raised by BC, Marssim and others are questions that other all-star techs (that you NEED to attract to make this work) have been asking. Instead of making it your personal deal, why not look at it as free batting practice from people whose kung-fu is stronger than yours?

BTW, I'll spare you the ad-hominem reply, I'm a shop steward where I work, and your "props" are pretty much fitting the mold of why people inherently dislike union organizers.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Nuclear NASCAR on Aug 22, 2009, 11:06


An equal percentage for increases in pay compensation would be an analogous nod of respect to the juniors and deconners that are either working their way up or are happy where they are at.

At least that's my take on part of what a union should be. It appears I would be a lousy union executive, steward or negotiator.


Marssim you would make a great steward, executive, or negotiator.  If you sacrifice the lower paid workers for the sake of those making more you not only slap them in the face but you run the likelihood of losing their support and eventually your Union. 

On-topic; I'd like to believe that this is the start of something good.  In this case I'm going to defer to hindsight rather than make predictions.  ;)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Aug 23, 2009, 05:09
Maybe there would be less contractors if some of the house techs would get off their ass's and cover a job once in awhile?

How does that message help anything?  It's just argumentative.

AND you are off topic, there was nothing in there about NPUA.

All off topics will be deleted.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Aug 23, 2009, 12:40
    You know, if you spent half as much time supporting ANY entity that will benefit your quality of life as you do complaining about issues (deconner & jr pay), that will probably never affect you for the rest of your life, you would be a great benefit to your fellow RP techs....

  ...As it is, you sound like (and yes, I could be wrong), one of the reasons ALL RP techs do NOT enjoy the quality of life enjoyed by other professionals/skilled workers in similar lines of work.
 

I find that to be a contradiction.  The "I got the deal I wanted, so screw you" mentality of the contract RP workforce is the real reason.  The lack of solidarity and unwillingness to make a short-term personal sacrifice for the benefit of the group as a whole is the best tool that the other side has in keeping the compensation package as cheap as they have for all this time.

Believe it or not, what you are proposing here on this topic is as divisive as it can get when it comes to organizing a profession or trade into a union.  You are scolding Marssim for looking to the welfare of those outside his own paygrade when you really need the support of all those people in the lower classifications.  After all, they are the future members of the top tier.  If you don't support them now, you won't have them later.

But, I don't think you really mean to do that.  If you were in it just for yourself, why would you be here arguing for this union when you could just take your good deal and relax?  You wouldn't be trying to sell this idea unless you realized the obvious fact that you need to garner a large base of support from the tech population.

This is a process.  It is not static by any means.  NPUA has a foot in the door.  That is all.  For it to work, there needs to be widespread support for it at every level.  If you don't get, hold, and grow that support you will one day be reminiscing about that one outage at Wolf Creek when you got a good check every week for a month and calling it "the good old days."

I've had my misgivings about this arrangement from the start, and I won't repeat them here.  You can scroll back to read them.  But, I will repeat that it is not a good idea to align the union with one company - any one company.  The very fact that anyone on this forum refers to Spectrum/NPUA as a single entity sends warning signals through my brain as if I had touched a hot stove.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Chimera on Aug 23, 2009, 05:25
Dang, Marrsimm . . . yeah . . . what you said!!!!!

I tend to be skeptical of unions and their activities.  This comes from many decades of observing their organizing and striking tactics - and SEIU's current shannigans don't help my perceptions of union activities at all.

An effective brotherhood that all the "body shops" and utilities would respect is something worth considering.  I'm still not seeing that.  What I'm seeing is an opportunistic outfit using the current tech shortage to jump in.  How many of those techs that jumped onto Spectrum's band wagon had already agreed to work for a different company and are only following the money now?  This doesn't appear to be significantly different than what happened a few years ago when a few utilities upped their billing rates to get techs to jump their current contracts to go and support their outages.

I'm not looking for an outfit who's victory cry is based on a temporary situation.  But I like Marrsimm ideas a whole lot.  Let me hear more of that and I just might change my mind.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Longtime Nuke on Aug 23, 2009, 06:59
What a sad thread.

Five years and you all either have house jobs, or are greeting at Walmart. 

"Remember when Kevin promised $40/hr, 3 in - 3 out, travel pay, govt diem, meals, women...?  And we jerked each other on Nukeworker about how important we all thought we were?  What happened?  Now they do 20 day outages with all house resources and electronic coverage."

Supersize that, sir?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Aug 23, 2009, 07:21
I find that to be a contradiction.  The "I got the deal I wanted, so screw you" mentality of the contract RP workforce is the real reason.  The lack of solidarity and unwillingness to make a short-term personal sacrifice for the benefit of the group as a whole is the best tool that the other side has in keeping the compensation package as cheap as they have for all this time.


Well said, but off the mark.

First of all, the compensation package is not presently "cheap."  With diem, wages, and markup utilities pay more for semi-skilled RP travelers
than is paid for skilled teachers, cops, or nurses.

There is absolutely no solidarity...true enough.  But the die cast in deeper respects.  The industry is changing.  Maturing.  Adapting.  The guys running the show are not stupid.  Doing without expensive RP travelers won't be hard.  The current "crisis" will just accelerate the inevitable.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Old HP on Aug 24, 2009, 08:48
It is nice to see the pay go up, although at this time it is more a result of basic economics (supply & demand) than union or if one company has better workers than the other.
It is also a time when those techs( that end up at a job which is only half staffed ) really have to be carefull not to be pushed by management expectations that the work will go as scheduled with or without proper coverage. Try not to get pushed into covering 2 or 3 constant coverage jobs at one time as it will happen.
Remember what Clint Eastwood said " A tech has got to know his (or her) limitations"

Be carefull out there this fall season..

                                                        Old HP
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Aug 24, 2009, 08:59
1. Techs accept jobs wherever they can get them because they have bills to pay and need more than Minimum wage to pay them. Up until this week there were fewer choices  and even with the Spectrum contract there are still few choices. It's good that Spectrum has a high paying contract with the NPUA backing; however with 59 slots that are pretty much filled already that leaves about 99% of the techs out in the cold with no other choice. Work where you can or be homeless.
2. Same as answer to 1.
3. Same as answer to 1.
4. Same as answer to 1.


  This is ABSOLUTELTY NOT TRUE.  There have been PLENTY of choices this summer and there still are.  There are OTHER choices & techs do not have to be left out in the cold or be homeless neither.
  Remember all out there who read this.  Like I've REPEATEDLY said before; this is not so much about the union as it is to NOT SUPPORT employers who will support change and start treating us all as skilled or professional workers.  Just like any other skilled trade.  The NPUA & Spectrum just happen to be the first to step up to the plate and bat for us.  So WHY NOT support them first?
  There are a ton of jobs out there right now paying seniors anywhere from 30.00-38.00/hr and 80-180/day with benefits!  And these are not with either bartlett nor atlantic.  I know because I have been contacted by almost all of them and I've networked for the rest starting back in May.  There are too many examples to list here & I'm sure ANY true road tech worth his/her salt know about these also because even while gainfully employed, you ALWAYS have your ear to the ground prospecting for your next job (if you want/need one that is).



 In an attempt to "Not beat a dead horse" I am only going to say that what I said is true for most Techs. Yes I know about all the other jobs out there paying more, because i do keep my ear to the ground listening for a gold mine to come along. However if you add all those other jobs to the 59 positions that Spectrum has, and filled them all, there will still be Techs working for less that they are worth. I believe anyone working for less than they are worth is doing it because they have bills to pay.

I too have been a union member and shop steward before so I know how unions work. I am pro union all the way; however, with just one company and one contract  it is going to be a long time before it benefits very many techs.

One last thing then I am getting off this soap box, on the posts that I have read here about the union it seems that most posters use  NPUA and Spectrum as they are one entity. I believe when talking about union business that Spectrum should not be mentioned unless someone wants to know which company has a contract with The NPUA. Then it won't seem that NPUA is the one staffing a job.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RDTroja on Aug 24, 2009, 09:21
 Like you Marssim, I'm not picking a fight either .  But it does sound like you are whining a lot though.
  You know, if you spent half as much time supporting ANY entity that will benefit your quality of life as you do complaining about issues (deconner & jr pay), that will probably never affect you for the rest of your life, you would be a great benefit to your fellow RP techs.
  As it is, you sound like (and yes, I could be wrong), one of the reasons ALL RP techs do NOT enjoy the quality of life enjoyed by other professionals/skilled workers in similar lines of work.
  So why don't you just stop worrying, complaining, & commenting on it?  I mean if you are against an increase in all of your fellow techs' way of life, why don't you just say so?
  I'll be the first to admit that the NPUA/Spectrum deal may not be perfect, but NOTHING IS - is it?  Can you name me any union or company (related to our field of course), that is?  I'd like to hear about it.  Just like this isn't the perfect country on Earth, but damn sure if it isn't the best one there is.  So if your looking for perfection, that's fine.  Just go somewhere else and find it because I admit that it isn't here.
  With due respect...
P.S.  I'm still waiting for anyone to answer my questions  :O)

You ever sell used cars?

I have to agree with the others who have pointed out that it is entirely disingenuous (more help with your vocabulary, mutant) to make a claim that you are not trying to start a fight and then insult the person with whom you are not trying to start that fight.

I don't currently have a dog in this fight because of the job I have right now, but I recognize the distinct possibility that I may be back in the RP pool one day. With that in mind, I am very interested to make sure that the contract RP industry remains healthy in my absence and I would very much like to see the rates be more in line with what other skilled craft make. The problem with the NPUA is the same problem we have had many times before: so far there are a lot of promises and even a glimmer of hope, but there is no track record to measure against the promises. The other times this has happened in the last 35 or so years, the results were a big fizzle. There have been occasional big number outages for a few people followed by a deafening silence. If you are looking for support, you are fighting history. This is not to say it won't or can't work, just that most of us are jaded by past experiences with unions that all made the same promises. You are asking a group of people that have been bitten before for trust that has not yet been earned.

I hope it goes well. I hope there are more jobs to follow and that eventually all outages are paying a fair price. I can't say I have any faith yet and there is certainly no hard evidence so far. But there is hope... hmmm, where have I heard that before?

I don't know you or any of the organizers or supporters of the union personally, so I have to make judgments on incomplete data and trust. Sorry, but that comes hard to someone that has been around for the last couple of decades. Frankly your combative approach has not helped much. I do know BeerCourt personally and I trust his opinion more than yours (naturally) and tend to take his side of an argument more often than not (although we have disagreed on the forum occasionally.) Most of the people on Nukeworker have read his posts and know he actually takes time to think about issues and measure his response. Dismissing his opinion and questioning his background are significant errors if you are looking for any credibility. (I also know quite a bit about his background, having worked with him over 20 years ago.)

As I said before, I wish the NPUA luck. But more than luck, they need good PR. Several outages where they come through on their promises will go a long way toward that PR. Arguing with people and starting fights (particularly ones you claim to want to avoid) will not.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Aug 24, 2009, 12:12
I don't know you or any of the organizers or supporters of the union personally, so I have to make judgments on incomplete data and trust. Sorry, but that comes hard to someone that has been around for the last couple of decades. Frankly your combative approach has not helped much. I do know BeerCourt personally and I trust his opinion more than yours (naturally) and tend to take his side of an argument more often than not (although we have disagreed on the forum occasionally.) Most of the people on Nukeworker have read his posts and know he actually takes time to think about issues and measure his response. Dismissing his opinion and questioning his background are significant errors if you are looking for any credibility. (I also know quite a bit about his background, having worked with him over 20 years ago.)

Well Said Roger.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Aug 24, 2009, 12:29
Strong, straight, truthful reply Henry (may I call you Henry? we've never met). If you're paynig dues I would expect you to get an answer from the NPUA quicker than three days. If you're not paying dues, I dunno.

(sic)

Yes Sir, you may call me Henry. I am not a paying member but the webpage said expect a reply in 2 to 3 days. I still haven't got a reply; not that it matters anymore. I have seen enough here to answer my question. Thanks for reading and posting.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Aug 24, 2009, 08:58
Okay, can I ask another dumb question?  I see on the "other" site that Spectrum is still posting for techs at the one outage where they have 59 slots paying "up to" $40/hr.  The most recent time stamp on that posting is yesterday.
So here's the question.  Why?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Aug 24, 2009, 09:23
Okay, can I ask another dumb question?  I see on the "other" site that Spectrum is still posting for techs at the one outage where they have 59 slots paying "up to" $40/hr.  The most recent time stamp on that posting is yesterday.
So here's the question.  Why?

And why not post here?  Where all the Rad Techs hang out?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Aug 25, 2009, 12:34
What a sad thread.

Five years and you all either have house jobs, or are greeting at Walmart. 

"Remember when Kevin promised $40/hr, 3 in - 3 out, travel pay, govt diem, meals, women...?  And we jerked each other on Nukeworker about how important we all thought we were?  What happened?  Now they do 20 day outages with all house resources and electronic coverage."

Supersize that, sir?

There is a lot of denial in this forum.  The industry trend away from costly semi-skilled travelers is crystal clear. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Aug 25, 2009, 12:40
Few posters ID themselves as house or travelers, union or non-union, so I may be wrong, but it appears that union house techs are ambivalent on the subject of represented travelers.  Have the unions that represent house employees been silent on the NPUA or have they thrown their support (potentially considerable support) behind the effort to organize travelers?   It seems that the house unions would be thrilled if the health and welfare of their members were in the hands of fellow union workers instead of the dreaded ‘scab’ techs.

By the way...at the moment I am a non-union traveler.

House unions are dying dinosaurs.  Membership is drying up, bargaining power flacid, leadership in survival mode.  Our utility has 12,000 employees....fewer than 2500 are represented.  Think the unions give a crap about a few dozen RP travelers showing up a few weeks a year for outages?  Too worried about losing their parking spots....
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Aug 25, 2009, 08:11
Isn't that in itself a dumb question?  Smile, you know that is funny! :)

Why are they still posting Sr. slots at Wolf Creek?  That's easier to answer than a plane source question.  They are still posting because they still have slots open.  The tougher question, kind of like a decay formula, would be why do they still have slots available.

Yeah, I'm smiling.

I'm not sure that you came up with the definitive answer.
It could be that they have no slots open and are just mining for more resumes.
Could it be that this union has fewer than 59 members?  It would seem so.

But, if you are right, there could be several possible answers to your question.
Maybe (and this is not a big maybe) all the $45, $40, and $38 slots are filled and all they have left are the $35, $30 and $25 slots to fill.  You can almost hear that canyon cracking open in the ranks.  There WILL be seasoned veteran RP's offered the lower rate jobs and resenting the ones with less ability who are hanging lead for $45/hr.  Or, they'll just go with Absolute, who is offering $41 for ALARA and $36 for Sr. RP's with 3 yrs. experience.  Or, they will find that Aerotek, Shaw, and possibly a few others have entered the game this fall.

It appears that things have come to a head.  With DOE grabbing up techs., and almost all the outages scheduled to be at the same time, there will be a shortage of RP's for a couple of weeks this fall.  This alone has driven the increase in rates.  NPUA/Spectrum is merely playing one hand in a game where the stakes have been raised.  There will be a new hand dealt in the spring.  There will be another after that.

Undoubtedly, someone is going to take the credit for getting the wages and per diem up this far, and maybe they deserve at least part of it.  It remains to be seen if they, or anyone else, can get enough chips to buy the pot from here on.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Aug 26, 2009, 01:31
There is a lot of denial in this forum.  The industry trend away from costly semi-skilled travelers is crystal clear. 

Ever feel like the rest of the crowd isn't listening to you? Wonder Why? I have a pretty good idea why, at least I am semi-sure.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Aug 26, 2009, 09:23
Yeah, I'm smiling.

I'm not sure that you came up with the definitive answer.
It could be that they have no slots open and are just mining for more resumes.
Could it be that this union has fewer than 59 members?  It would seem so.

But, if you are right, there could be several possible answers to your question.
Maybe (and this is not a big maybe) all the $45, $40, and $38 slots are filled and all they have left are the $35, $30 and $25 slots to fill.  You can almost hear that canyon cracking open in the ranks.  There WILL be seasoned veteran RP's offered the lower rate jobs and resenting the ones with less ability who are hanging lead for $45/hr.  Or, they'll just go with Absolute, who is offering $41 for ALARA and $36 for Sr. RP's with 3 yrs. experience.  Or, they will find that Aerotek, Shaw, and possibly a few others have entered the game this fall.

It appears that things have come to a head.  With DOE grabbing up techs., and almost all the outages scheduled to be at the same time, there will be a shortage of RP's for a couple of weeks this fall.  This alone has driven the increase in rates.  NPUA/Spectrum is merely playing one hand in a game where the stakes have been raised.  There will be a new hand dealt in the spring.  There will be another after that.

Undoubtedly, someone is going to take the credit for getting the wages and per diem up this far, and maybe they deserve at least part of it.  It remains to be seen if they, or anyone else, can get enough chips to buy the pot from here on.


I called Spectrum and asked whether you had to be a member of the union to be submitted and was told that while Spectrum was not a union company that they were only taking union resumes; they then asked if I wanted to speak to Kevin about joining the union.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Aug 27, 2009, 07:20
Okay, now I'm curious about that.
When they asked if you wanted to speak to Kevin, was there any reason for you to believe that he was perhaps in the same office?  I mean, did they give you a phone number for him, or did it seem that they were going to put him on the phone right there?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: 11 for 12 on Aug 28, 2009, 09:37
Maybe im missing something here ,but what difference does it make if he was in the same room or somewhere else? I mean does it really make a difference for you where he is at? He could be answering call for the Npua anywhere who cares? Just an opinion and why is it such a big deal to you?
Okay, now I'm curious about that.
When they asked if you wanted to speak to Kevin, was there any reason for you to believe that he was perhaps in the same office?  I mean, did they give you a phone number for him, or did it seem that they were going to put him on the phone right there?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Aug 29, 2009, 11:07
Okay, I'll let you in on my thoughts about this.

Realize please that I have nothing more than speculation and suspicion to go on.  But, the suspicion is that this union is a front for a company who is trying to bypass competition by taking a large part of the tech population off the market and waiting for the shortage to manifest itself in higher prices.

That may be a legitimate strategy.  But, the way they may be doing it could be a problem.

Here is what I see through my skeptical eyes:  The "union" (which is not affiliated with any national labor organization) is not behaving like a union.  They are making no attempt to organize the employees of the established companies in the field.  The current union leadership is not elected by the membership.  They advocate working for one company.  If the relationship between the union leadership and the company is too close, there will be a conflict of interest.  If they have any financial stake in this company, the conflict is unethical and possibly illegal.

Are these people really acting in the best interest of the members, or are they acting in the interest of the company?  The bells have been going off in my head for months now.  Nobody has offered any indication that this union would be willing to negotiate with any other company.   They offer the excuse that other companies aren't interested, but that doesn't make any difference.  It is the EMPLOYEES of those companies who should determine whether they wish to be represented by this union or not.  Instead of trying to organize these employees, they are just telling them to jump over to another company - a company that they may or may not have an ownership interest in.

A lot has been said in praise of the union leadership having made a large financial investment in this endeavor.  This sets off another alarm.  Why do people invest their own money?  To get a return on that investment.  How will this be realized?  Even if NPUA has no relationship with Spectrum whatsoever, there is still the question of the personal investment?  Will those who have put their own money at stake act in the interest of the membership, or will they act  in their own interest to protect and grow their personal investment?

I'll repeat that this is all speculation on my part, based on my suspicion.  Maybe it would all be answered if somebody would lay all the cards on the table.  What is the relationship between the NPUA leadership and the owners of Spectrum?  What efforts have been made to organize the employees of any other company, such as Bartlett or Atlantic?  Where is the financial backing for NPUA coming from, and who stands to benefit from it?  When will the NPUA membership be allowed to elect officers?  When will the membership be voting on the contract with Spectrum?

That is why it makes a difference to me where Kevin is sitting when he takes your call.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: desertdog on Aug 29, 2009, 01:23


Realize please that I have nothing more than speculation and suspicion to go on.  But, the suspicion is that this union is a front for a company who is trying to bypass competition by taking a large part of the tech population off the market and waiting for the shortage to manifest itself in higher prices.

Nobody has offered any indication that this union would be willing to negotiate with any other company.   


Hi BC,

I'd like to respond to one of your questions above. They are all good questions IMO.

To start let me say that I have not yet joined the NPUA but I was privy to much of what was going on early in the NPUA. Well before Spectrum became involved, Kevin travelled to Atlanta for the RPM's meeting. He was there to start a dialogue with the utilities and if possible to negotiate directly with them. While many expressed interest, the powers that be within the the HR and Legal Depts. of the utilities balked at the added 'responsibility'. It was then that he started pursuing the idea of going through a contract company. After a year or more of this, Spectrum was the only viable company with the contacts and contracts within the industry willing  to take up the torch with Kevin to improve the travelling techs benefits and wage package through the NPUA. There was another company willing to negotiate but they were deemed 'too radical' in their demands for wage rates.

I only say this to answer your question of whether the NPUA is a front to help this company. They both existed well before they started working together.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Aug 29, 2009, 04:53
I only say this to answer your question of whether the NPUA is a front to help this company. They both existed well before they started working together.

Thank you for sharing.  This is good information.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Aug 29, 2009, 06:21
Thanks.  This sheds some light on the situation.  It also eliminates the suspicion of false dealings and financial impropriety.

However, it does leave me concerned that Kevin did this EXACTLY BACKWARDS.  He tried to g through the utitlities and then through a contract company.  He should have been going through the techs.  You don't form a union by lining up with a company and recruiting members/employees.  You form a union by recruiting members from among the employees of existing companies and using the power of unity to force the companies to negotiate.

What you have here is NPUA/Spectrum as one entity which bargains for contracts without the input or approval of the membership and then offers the deal to prospective members/employees as a take-it-or-leave-it option.

What you have here is not a union.  You have a company that collects dues from its employees in return for which it gives them practically NO opportunity to earn higher wages.

It isn't criminal.  It's just not a union.  Period.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Longtime Nuke on Aug 29, 2009, 06:29
Has Spectrum/NPUA actually PLACED anybody at Wolf Creek under this backup contract?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: northstardjn on Aug 30, 2009, 08:50
This is the first time I have posted on Nukeworker.

I've read most, but not all, of the comments posted, and I'd like to point out a couple of things.

First, the intent of the NPUA was, and I hope is, to entice utilities into hiring techs direct, as Diablo does.  It was not to start up another company or to be just another body shop.  It had adapted because utilities are not geared to hiring direct, and such a shift in practices will take time.

Second, the NPUA is also interested in raising the quality of technician.  When I got into the biz, back in 1980, no one would even have considered giving a senior tech a test to see if he/she could read a meter and the techs I worked with, Beercourt among them (Beircort, I think) could all perform decay calcs, shielding calcs, cpm/dpm conversions.  All that stuff.  Those days are gone.  The NPUA would like to bring them back.

Third, I have supported the NPUA because they are not just about seniority, or if they are, I will withdraw my support.   Unions have a bad name because they support the lazy and incompetent.  The NPUA has printed a Standard of Excellence.  This is what they are telling me they expect my behavior and actions to reflect.  My expectation of the NPUA, and I have talked to Kevin about this, is the NPUA will enforce those standards, and will remove anyone from the rolls who will not conform to those standards.  That is one reason why the NPUA did not go to the IBEW, Teamsters, etc.  Internationals don't support their printed standards.  Anyone who worked Nine Mile or any Commonwealth Edison plant in the Eighties could tell you that.

Fourth, when I got in, not only did we get paid mileage, we got a days per diem and a days pay for travel.  Which makes sense.  You get  to the site the day before.  You're already piling up hotel bills.  You should get paid for it.  Just as we should all get paid for tolls, food and lodging while we travel.

As to contract companies and the NPUA, think about it.  If there were a standard wage throughout the industry, those that get the contracts would be those who ran the leanest (less overhead). Bartlett seems to have a rather high maintenance bill.  I don't know what Atlantic's is, but those companies would have to cut costs and be competitive with each other.  They would not be able to bid a contract on how low they could drive technician pay, nor would they be able to intimidate techs by threatening to put them on the bottom of the work list. 

Those of you who take the defeatist attitude that this will never work are indulging in circular logic and self-defeating thought processes.  It can work, and will work, if techs quit being self absorbed and, for once, work for their common good, as well as the good of the industry they are employed in. 

Finally, as has been mentioned, this will take sacrifice to get it started.  But, consider this:  All you really have to do to get higher wages raised is to not commit to an outage.  That's it.  It doesn't take a union per se, it just takes commitment and personal courage.  That's it.  I have a mortgage, car payments, and my wife doesn't work.  But committed to no one.  I've done it before.  The work will be there.  The required use of HPs will be there.   What the NPUA is doing is saying we deserve higher wages, but here is what you (utilities) will get in return:

Better techs

Higher standards.

Better, well run, more error free outages.

If anyone can come up with a logical, non-fearbased reason not to get onboard, I'd like to hear it.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: desertdog on Aug 30, 2009, 10:52
What you have here is not a union. 

It isn't criminal.  It's just not a union.  Period.

I argued for it to not be called a union. Not for the reasons you state only. I agree and I'm sure Kevin would also that this does not conform with the norms of a union.

If it was called an association I think it would more accurately describe what he has formed and would be less likely to scare off techs that would otherwise support it. I know the union dealings scared a lot of road people in the early nineties.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Aug 30, 2009, 11:21
Okay, now I'm curious about that.
When they asked if you wanted to speak to Kevin, was there any reason for you to believe that he was perhaps in the same office?  I mean, did they give you a phone number for him, or did it seem that they were going to put him on the phone right there?

I was not told that Kevin was there. They only asked if I would like to speak to him.  I just told her no that I was inquiring for another party and that they would call back later.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Aug 30, 2009, 12:25
You know what?  I think it is a good plan.  I think they should stop pretending to be a union and stick with their intended goals.

As you can tell by my rants, the posturing of NPUA as s union only causes confusion, skepticism, and (worst of all) resistance from those who are not politically inclined to support unions.

Scrap the dues.  Lose the union rhetoric.  Just call it what it is.  It is a venture to reshape the profession with higher standards for performance and pay.  To achieve that, they will have to tell some techs "you don't make the cut".

If it works - and there is no reason why it shouldn't as long as they adhere to those standards all around -God Bless 'em.  Many techs, including me, have been hoping for something like this to happen for years.  

While the other companies have been competing with lower cost, nobody has offered higher quality.  There is room in the industry for both.  The Diablo Canyon model that has been used extensively in this thread is as good as an example as you can get.  It costs more per technician hour to get the work done, but every tech who has gone there will tell you that the plant is getting better value for its money.  It is all a matter of value.  You all know I love analogies.  Try this one.  Go to Harbor Freight and buy a bunch of cheap tools.  Then try to get a major project completed with them.  After you have bought replacements for all the broken ones, and cussed like a sailor because they just make the job harder, you'll figure out why some folks just go and buy one set of good tools at Sears for three times the money.

Time will tell.  Let's see if they can stick to their guns with this.  If NPUA or Spectrum provides a better quality product to their customers, and maintains higher standards, they will last a long time, and I'll be in their corner.  

For now, put me in the fourth category along with mutant.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Aug 30, 2009, 01:38

Third, I have supported the NPUA because they are not just about seniority, or if they are, I will withdraw my support.   Unions have a bad name because they support the lazy and incompetent.  The NPUA has printed a Standard of Excellence.  This is what they are telling me they expect my behavior and actions to reflect.  My expectation of the NPUA, and I have talked to Kevin about this, is the NPUA will enforce those standards, and will remove anyone from the rolls who will not conform to those standards.  That is one reason why the NPUA did not go to the IBEW, Teamsters, etc.  Internationals don't support their printed standards.  Anyone who worked Nine Mile or any Commonwealth Edison plant in the Eighties could tell you that.





The Code of Excellence defines ten areas of NPUA members’ standards of conduct. In most cases, corrective action (discipline) is progressive, with penalties ranging from a warning to expulsion from the Union.

The Employers will apply the standards of conduct and their respective work rules in a fair and equitable manner. The following are prohibited activities and a worker who has been terminated for cause by his or her Employer for engaging in such activities shall be subject to appearance before the Code of Excellence Committee:

Excessive Tardiness or Absenteeism
Poor and Unprofessional Attitude and/or Appearance
Non-compliance with Employer/Customer Work Rules
Poor Workmanship or Productivity
Using “self-help” instead of the Grievance Procedure
Horseplay
Harassment of Co-Workers
Participation in, or instigating any type of Work Slowdown or Work Stoppage
Theft
Jobsite Violence

A Code of Excellence Committee will hereby be established for the exclusive and limited purpose of assessing corrective action associated with the prohibited conduct stated above. The Code of Excellence Committee shall assume the authority given it by the President of the NPUA. In addition, either party may request an individual be called before the Committee either in person or via electronic communication. The Committee shall have the authority to determine the individual’s continued eligibility for referral.

The Code of Excellence Committee shall notify an individual of the time and place to appear in person or via electronic communication, following the most recent qualified termination for cause. An individual, who fails to appear, when requested for cause, will have his/her corrective action decided by the Committee in their absence, and will be notified of the outcome.

An individual may be called to appear before the Committee for the first termination for cause for any of the following:

(Note: Violations of numbers 1, 2 and 3 below may also result in Union discipline or expulsion)

Instigation of or participation in any type of work slowdown or work stoppage.
Theft.
Jobsite violence.
Harassment of co-workers.

The Code of Excellence Committee shall review all individuals who have been terminated for cause two times in a 12-month period with a mandatory appearance before the committee either in person or via electronic communication. In addition, the committee may issue the following:

The committee may require the individual to obtain further training before being eligible for referral, or they may refer the individual to the Executive Board for further evaluation and action;
The committee may disqualify the individual for referral for a specified period, depending on the seriousness of the conduct and/or repetitive nature of the conduct;
The committee may refer the individual to an employee assistance program;
The committee may restore the individual to his/her place on the referral list.

The Code of Excellence Committee shall consist of five members, three from the Executive Board appointed by the NPUA president and two from the NPUA membership appointed by the Executive Board. A majority decision of the Committee shall be final and binding on all parties.

Where possible Union discipline or expulsion is indicated, that can only occur pursuant to decisions by the Code of Excellence Committee, acting on proper charges filed in accordance with the worker fails to comply without good cause, the worker will be subject to further corrective action until achieving compliance.

(Retrieved August 30 2009 from http://www.npua.org/resource-center/code_of_excellence.htm)

I would like to know what would be considered unprofessional? Excessive jewelry, body piercings, tattoos, hairstyles, colors, weight?

I think I'll pose this question to the NPAU and get back to ya'll with an answer.





Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Marlin on Aug 30, 2009, 02:53
   I don't mean to be too pessimistic but, I was a member of the HP CO-OP that did one job at Calvert Cliffs then fell apart because we got little or no support from fellow technicians even fellow members of the CO-OP. I lost a job due to my support for a union and my fellow technicians told me I should have known better. I have been on a picket line but the people who talked the loadest in support of a union in the break room did not show. I was the Executive Director for the Professional Radiation Protection Association (very similar to the NPUA in stated purpose) again technicians put their own self interest ahead of the interest of the whole. Whether it is the Oil Chemical and Atomic workers of the 70s the IBEW of the 80s and 90s or any other attempt to organize professionally or through a union my experience has been the same, lack of commitment from the technician community as a whole.
   Before anyone tries to rebut my statement with that was then and this is now, please tell me what has changed. Are technicians tighter today than before, I doubt it. I don't have a dog in this race as I have not swung a meter for many years, but if this is to succeed what is being done different and have you learned from the mistakes of the past.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Aug 30, 2009, 06:06
I see MARLIN's, BEERCOURT's, and MARSSIM's singing the same tune.  Do you know what those three people have in common?  Here is a multiple choice test to help you:

A) Very smart, and rose to the top of their profession.
B) Have a great understanding of how the world really works.
C) Vast, diverse and extensive experience.
D) Ask questions so that they can make informed judgments.
E) Good people, and try to help others.
F) Used to swing a meter, and have moved on to better paying jobs.
G) All of the Above.

These are smart people trying to help you, you would be wise to listen to them.  They are not anti-union.  They are just smart, experienced, wise, and helpful people.  They don't have a dog in this hunt, nothing to gain or loose.  They are just trying to help others.

Listen to their questions and observations, and try to gain some wisdom and knowledge from their experience.

There is a book called "How people learn", you should read it (but you probably won't).
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: northstardjn on Aug 30, 2009, 08:00
Mr. Rennhack:

Just what is your post referring to?  The NPUA.  Answering questions?  Is there something I wrote that leads you to believe I am somehow ill-educated and uninformed? 

I got news for ya, bud;  I are smart too.

to mutant, Marlin (he's a game fish), and Carmella:

As to the Standard, it's written out.  Personally, I don't exactly know what a professional appearance is.  For myself, I come in clean shaven every day.  I don't wear clothes with holes in them.  I even wear matching socks.  But that's me.  I don't know what other people consider a "professional appearance".   I don't.... And I expect that this is one area which has not been really thought out.  If you have input on what you think the Standard should be, go to NPUA.org and give your opinion.  I do believe there is something in the verbiage about the Standard reflecting whatever the standard at the power plant in question is, and from my point of view, that's about all that could be enforced.  Follow the rules of the plant.

As to direct hire, that was the goal when this Union was formed, and maybe still is.  I hope so.  The model was Diablo.  The way it should work is a plant, or a company, contacts the hall (hiring center), tells them how many techs they want and what type, the Union contacts the techs on the waiting lists, asks them if they are interested, and sends out a list of techs and resumes to the requesting party.  That's how it was done this time, and that is how it should continue.

The Standard is not a one strike and your out kinda deal.  There is a process that will be followed.  You can't be removed from the rolls for a single infraction, unless it's a major one (theft, lying on your PHQ, those kind of things). 

Raising the quality of Techs. 

Most Unions have some type of apprenticeship program.  This Union should be no different.  Anybody who has been in this business for anytime at all knows that, just because a resume says three years in a power plant, this doesn't mean the tech involved has an adequate level of knowledge to cover any job that comes up.  This is especially true of those ANSI 3.1's who were 18.1's until the plant found itself short of 3.1's.  Raising the level of training and education is also a goal because, if you're gonna ask for more money, somewhere you need to show why the increase in pay is justified. 

And, to my mind at least, increased training and higher standards of knowledge will lead to less incidents.  What happened at Diablo, which was referenced earlier, was management pushing and making less than conservative decisions.  But anyone on this website knows of incidents that were driven purely by the lack of skills of the person involved.  By having an actual apprenticeship program, these skills will increase in Techs as a group and those types of ignorance driven incidents should decrease.

Finally, a couple of points:

Everything that has been discussed here could have been asked on the NPUA website.  Just go to it and ask.  It's really simple.

As to the failure of efforts in the past, that's up to each and everyone of you.  Kevin has done the basics.  Some of us have ceased sitting on the fence.  Most of you are either still there or are afraid to even hop up and straddle the thing.  No effort such as this will succeed if those of you currently throwing stones stay on the sidelines and refuse to take part.  As I said earlier, it's as simple as not committing to an outage.  (Yes I did commit, but not in June or May, or July.)  All a power plant needs is about two weeks or so to process paperwork.  Committing months in advance because you're afraid there won't be any work doesn't make sense to me.

There aren't enough Techs to cover the work.  DOE will draw off more.  Outages will not get staffed, period, and the quality of techs will be drawn down further as more and more techs are "created" to fill the gaps. 

That's really all I'm going to say on this.  Go to NPUA.org.  Put your questions to those who are actually on the Board (or whatever it's called)  Get the word right from the horses mouth.  It's your future after all. 

"Never try to teach a pig to sing.  It wastes your time and it annoys the pig"

                                                                          Robert Heinlein
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Marlin on Aug 30, 2009, 09:31
Mr. Rennhack:

Just what is your post referring to?  The NPUA.  Answering questions?  Is there something I wrote that leads you to believe I am somehow ill-educated and uninformed? 

I got news for ya, bud;  I are smart too.

to mutant, Marlin (he's a game fish), and Carmella:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing.  It wastes your time and it annoys the pig"

                                                                          Robert Heinlein

If you are that bright, try reading for comprehension. No matter how well the program is written it will depend on the cooperation of the companies that hire and the techs on the road, no matter what the NPUA has in writting or how good their intentions they are not the only factor in achieving success. I have no interest in calliing them and for those who do there are more questions to be asked then what NPUA has to say, talk to your fellow techs to see if there is really any support, if there is go for it, if not.....

I guess your singing lessons are over.

"That's just my opinion I could be wrong." Dennis Miller
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Aug 31, 2009, 12:04
Mr. Rennhack:

Just what is your post referring to?  The NPUA.  Answering questions?  Is there something I wrote that leads you to believe I am somehow ill-educated and uninformed?  

I got news for ya, bud;  I are smart too.

to mutant, Marlin (he's a game fish), and Carmella:

As to the Standard, it's written out.  Personally, I don't exactly know what a professional appearance is.  For myself, I come in clean shaven every day.  I don't wear clothes with holes in them.  I even wear matching socks.  But that's me.  I don't know what other people consider a "professional appearance".   I don't.... And I expect that this is one area which has not been really thought out.  If you have input on what you think the Standard should be, go to npua and give your opinion.  I do believe there is something in the verbiage about the Standard reflecting whatever the standard at the power plant in question is, and from my point of view, that's about all that could be enforced.  Follow the rules of the plant.

As to direct hire, that was the goal when this Union was formed, and maybe still is.  I hope so.  The model was Diablo.  The way it should work is a plant, or a company, contacts the hall (hiring center), tells them how many techs they want and what type, the Union contacts the techs on the waiting lists, asks them if they are interested, and sends out a list of techs and resumes to the requesting party.  That's how it was done this time, and that is how it should continue.

The Standard is not a one strike and your out kinda deal.  There is a process that will be followed.  You can't be removed from the rolls for a single infraction, unless it's a major one (theft, lying on your PHQ, those kind of things).  

Raising the quality of Techs.  

Most Unions have some type of apprenticeship program.  This Union should be no different.  Anybody who has been in this business for anytime at all knows that, just because a resume says three years in a power plant, this doesn't mean the tech involved has an adequate level of knowledge to cover any job that comes up.  This is especially true of those ANSI 3.1's who were 18.1's until the plant found itself short of 3.1's.  Raising the level of training and education is also a goal because, if you're gonna ask for more money, somewhere you need to show why the increase in pay is justified.  

And, to my mind at least, increased training and higher standards of knowledge will lead to less incidents.  What happened at Diablo, which was referenced earlier, was management pushing and making less than conservative decisions.  But anyone on this website knows of incidents that were driven purely by the lack of skills of the person involved.  By having an actual apprenticeship program, these skills will increase in Techs as a group and those types of ignorance driven incidents should decrease.

Finally, a couple of points:

Everything that has been discussed here could have been asked on the NPUA website.  Just go to it and ask.  It's really simple.

As to the failure of efforts in the past, that's up to each and everyone of you.  Kevin has done the basics.  Some of us have ceased sitting on the fence.  Most of you are either still there or are afraid to even hop up and straddle the thing.  No effort such as this will succeed if those of you currently throwing stones stay on the sidelines and refuse to take part.  As I said earlier, it's as simple as not committing to an outage.  (Yes I did commit, but not in June or May, or July.)  All a power plant needs is about two weeks or so to process paperwork.  Committing months in advance because you're afraid there won't be any work doesn't make sense to me.

There aren't enough Techs to cover the work.  DOE will draw off more.  Outages will not get staffed, period, and the quality of techs will be drawn down further as more and more techs are "created" to fill the gaps.  

That's really all I'm going to say on this.  Go to npua.  Put your questions to those who are actually on the Board (or whatever it's called)  Get the word right from the horses mouth.  It's your future after all.  

"Never try to teach a pig to sing.  It wastes your time and it annoys the pig"

                                                                          Robert Heinlein


1. My name is clearly spelled C a m e l l a; there is no "r" in it. While this may seem petty, I would like to point out the mistake.

2. I just don't understand all the negative attitude towards those of us who are asking legitimate questions... by momma always said you'd catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, try it some time.  ;)

3. According to Kevin (posted on the Npua site) the employer would be responsible for determining if a worker appeared professional or not.


Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Aug 31, 2009, 12:22
Mr. Rennhack:
Just what is your post referring to?  The NPUA.  Answering questions?  Is there something I wrote that leads you to believe I am somehow ill-educated and uninformed? 
I got news for ya, bud;  I are smart too.
Robert Heinlein


What makes you think I was talking to you?  Did I quote you, or direct it to your real name or screen name?  Maybe I wasn't talking to you.

I guess that makes you mutant's "The hard line pro-union".

We love everyone here.  And we appreciate this discussion.  I think there are many good points in this thread, and more 'good stuff' than in most threads on this subject. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Aug 31, 2009, 08:30
That's really all I'm going to say on this.  Go to npua.  Put your questions to those who are actually on the Board (or whatever it's called)  Get the word right from the horses mouth.  It's your future after all.  



                                                                          Robert Heinlein

This sounds like a good idea except foer one thing; I posted a question on the NPUA website through their e-mail. It said expect an answer in two to three days. Its been almost two weeks now and I still don't have an answer. Maybe they thought my question wasn't worth an answer. But they should have acknowledged getting it. Thats just one man's opinion.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Chimera on Aug 31, 2009, 11:14
Training has been mentioned.  Who conducts the training?  At what facilities?  Who covers the costs?  Who sets the standards?  Beyond the basics of our profession (covered by the NUF exam), how are site specifics covered, i.e., systems, instrumentation and unique quals?  How often is the training to be conducted?  Would it be "continuous training" or a one-time deal every three or four years?

An apprentice program already exists.  It's called "Jr. Tech".  Actually, according to the ANSI standards, you either are a Tech or you aren't.  The union contracts I have worked under do set out a whole progression of Tech levels, but they are based on the ANSI standards.  All the various levels are just pay rates based on seniority.  Will the pay rates be based on seniority or on demonstrated abilities?  Who determines the level of "demonstration"?  What about all those jobs that don't require those higher levels of demonstrated abilities?

In principle, the union idea makes sense.  The practicalities of our various situations make it a lot harder to provied broad-stroke generalities.

As to the those poor guys in PATCO, when you sign a contract that says you can't go on strike and then violate that contract by going on strike, being fired is a logical outcome.  Personally, I don't believe that people who get their paychecks from taxes should be allowed to unionize.  Any increase in their pay rates is an increase in the taxes we all have to pay - and we, the general populace, have no voice in that process.  That's called taxation without representation.  In the unique case of teachers, we used to vote on referendums that allowed those pay raises with our consent to the increase in the tax base that would permit those raises.

While I would like to see NPUA succeed, I don't think they've thought this whole thing through.  They're omitting whole portions of our profession and concentrating only on commercial work while leaving many issues dangling.  It isn't just about the pay check.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HydroDave63 on Aug 31, 2009, 11:27
Personally, I don't believe that people who get their paychecks from taxes should be allowed to unionize.  Any increase in their pay rates is an increase in the taxes we all have to pay - and we, the general populace, have no voice in that process. 

On the Federal level, you do have some voice, in that Congress approves the changes to the General Schedule (GS) pay rates, and other Federal pay rates come from OPM, getting their direction from Dept. of Labor. So we do have a voice, but it is circuitous.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Aug 31, 2009, 05:19
As of yesterday, the Spectrum posting has been updated to inform prospective employees that the only remaining jobs to be filled at Wolf Creek are at the $35 and below pay rates (good to see that they are paying attention).  These rates are still considerably higher than they have been in the past and higher than many other rates at other sites.

Also, a new development has arisen on the scene.  A brief romp through the Jobs section here on NukeWorker has revealed the following information from Bartlett.

"Bartlett has been assured by our clients that in cases where any vendor places a technician at a site that we are currently staffing, the compensation offered by each vendor will be comparable."

While this seems to have taken away Spectrum's advantage for staffing the outage, it makes the game more interesting.  The "call" bet has been thrown into the pot.  Who has the winning hand?

Well, if we assume for the sake of this discussion that Spectrum will deliver what it is selling, they will take the pot.  Undoubtedly, Bartlett will be showing a few high cards.  But will Spectrum turn over all aces?  Here's something to think about.  If the Spectrum crew demonstrates a clear superiority in the ability and work-ethic of their technicians, and the usual mix of heavy-hitters and scarf-knitters turn up for Bartlett, the difference in value received for the money will be unmistakable.  Rake in your winnings, Spectrum.  But, if there is no discernible difference between the techs of one company and the other, it will be a draw.  Aces and threes with a deuce in each hand.  The customer will feel like they have been played for a sucker.  Pay rates will go back to where they were last year.  If it comes down to competing over cost again, Bartlett will clearly be in the lead because they had more chips coming in.

My advice to both companies:  Send your best and only your best techs to this outage and then STOP.  Make the other guy fill the remaining slots with the money-grabbing trailer-gods.  Don't try to play this hand to win; play not to lose.  This one hand may turn the game around, but it is not the whole game.

To pause for a minute from my poker analogy, you have to look beyond staffing this job and see it through to the end.  This is clearly a test case to see if the concept of higher pay for better performance is valid.  If you pay them more, they will come.  And it appears that both competitors are going to pay more and the techs will come to this outage.  So, what happens after they arrive at the gate is the real test.

Stay tuned for more exciting poker action here at the Wolf Creek Nuclear Plant and Casino.  Shuffle up and deal!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Longtime Nuke on Sep 06, 2009, 11:30
Some smoke, no fire.

Outages are staffing...mostly.  Utilities have reacted as expected.  Sharing, using Jrs, etc.

I hope the NPUA - lings don't take it too hard.  It was a nice idea.  Just unbelievably bad timing.  Like organizing pony express riders as the final train tracks are laid.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Jim Keating on Sep 07, 2009, 03:38
If the timing is bad now. When would the timing be good? Perhaps when Bartlett tells you it's OK?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: 11 for 12 on Sep 07, 2009, 10:02
Some smoke, no fire.

Outages are staffing...mostly.  Utilities have reacted as expected.  Sharing, using Jrs, etc.

I hope the NPUA - lings don't take it too hard.  It was a nice idea.  Just unbelievably bad timing.  Like organizing pony express riders as the final train tracks are laid.
What are you kidding me unbelievable bad timing are you crazy?
When would you say it would be good timing PLEASE RESPOND?
3 sgrp's,head replacements,diablo, almost every plant short.
THIS IS THE BEST CHANCE THEY WOULD EVER HAVE TO MAKE THIS WORK!
They are trying to better the wages and benefits for everyone one including you.
Come On Wake up!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Sep 07, 2009, 10:59
What are you kidding me unbelievable bad timing are you crazy?
When would you say it would be good timing PLEASE RESPOND?
3 sgrp's,head replacements,diablo, almost every plant short.
THIS IS THE BEST CHANCE THEY WOULD EVER HAVE TO MAKE THIS WORK!
They are trying to better the wages and benefits for everyone one including you.
Come On Wake up!

Terrible timing, my brother.  Open up to the big picture.

The economy is in the dumps, unemployment high.  Labor is cheap and abundant.  No time for small cadre of semi-skilled nichelings to try to muscle anybody.

Utilties are 3 years ahead of the NPUA on this thing.  Launched successful DOL/Linn State programs nationwide to restock labor pool.  standardized training and exams, NANTEL, other iremote monitoring, etc to reduce dependence on expensive traveling labor.

Most plants are now affiliated or allied unlike they were 10 years ago.  Large fleets (Exelon, Duke, FPL, Etc.) and the USA Alliance, STARS, etc.  Guess what...they talk!  Got out in front of this thing last year...worked out sharing, standardization, using Jrs, etc.

Resource options exist now that were new several years ago..  Don't need diem dudes for FME, helpers, firewatch, nozzle dam jumping, all knids of other routine stuff.  Got plants staff doing that now.  Just makes road techs all the more endangered as culture changes.

Most importantly....now REALLY open your mind, the NRC Work Rule.  Do you understand where it came from, and what the NRC is REALLY causing to happen here?  It is directly aimed at YOU, my friend.  The rule is intended to reduce overtime and use of travelers at nuke plants.  It is an order to hire more plant staff...an order they can't make, but can effect nonetheless.  Plants MUST hire more operatorsm security guys, and RP techs to reduce use of OT under the order.  NPUA a problem.....?  Hardly. 


Terrible timing.



Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RDTroja on Sep 08, 2009, 08:27
...

Most importantly....now REALLY open your mind, the NRC Work Rule.  Do you understand where it came from, and what the NRC is REALLY causing to happen here?  It is directly aimed at YOU, my friend.  The rule is intended to reduce overtime and use of travelers at nuke plants.  It is an order to hire more plant staff...an order they can't make, but can effect nonetheless.  Plants MUST hire more operatorsm security guys, and RP techs to reduce use of OT under the order.  NPUA a problem.....?  Hardly. 

For someone with such a low opinion of contract technicians, you sure have an overinflated view of their influence.

The NRC could not care less about contract RP techs. The only reason for the fatigue rule is that the NRC recognized that if there is another accident word will get out about the number of hours the operators are working and there will be a public outcry. They are supposed to be the industry watchdogs and they don't like having people blame them for anything. All they are doing is looking to avoid being held responsible if something goes wrong. Well, to be fair they are also trying to avoid the accidents in the first place.

For years when things have gone wrong, one of the convenient apparent causes has been fatigue, either the operators or the mechanics or I&C techs. RP gets to play because the worst thing that can happen in a nuclear plant (in the public's eye) is any accident involving radiation exposure. If you make fatigue the cause of a lot of small incidents, it becomes a precursor to a large accident. If a large (TMI-style) accident is even remotely connected to fatigue (and it will be) and the NRC has done nothing about the excessive hours worked by the people that caused the accident, the crosshairs go directly on the regulators. The average person can't imagine working 12 hours a day, 6 or 7 days a week. When I tell people that we used to do 3 month and four month outages on 12 hour (or 12 1/2 hour) days without a day off, they are just astounded. They can't even wrap their brains around it. That kind of work schedule has to affect your ability to make sound judgements.

To say that the fatigue rule is aimed at contract RP technicians is asinine. They are barely a blip on the NRC's radar.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: thenukeman on Sep 23, 2009, 08:06
I like the Bartlett approach, Up front honest and giving the loyal techs first option as it should be.  And Hey I have not worked for them for 3 years.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Sep 23, 2009, 11:04
An over abundance of qualified HP techs, enough to fully staff all of the outages and all of the DOE work, would make their presence known if suddenly utilities and the DOE offered qualified HP techs $140/hr and full expenses.  That will not happen of course so many of us will continue to support ourselves and our families in other ways.

Do not understand this analysis of the law of supply and demand. 

Sez "if demand drove prices up more supply would surface."

34 outages this season.  Wages and diem up everywhere.  Even niche suppliers lined up at the trough.

Who do you think is holding out while nationwide unemployment is peaking?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Sep 24, 2009, 10:23
Nothing covert about Bartlett's intentions to punish those of us who chose to work for Spectrum, Atlantic, or any other supplier this Fall.  This is a definite change from the BNI modi operandi of the mid-80's.  I like this approach better than the D-S-P approach or Bruce's private rolodex.  At least now you know what side your bread is buttered on.

We have no intention to as you say "punish" anyone that works for Brands X, Y or Z- if you go back thru my posts over the years you will see that this is a business practice that Bartlett has used since our conception, we try to hire those that most recently worked for us first, then everyone else - why would we lay some one off and contribute into thier unemployment then hire some one else that was collecting thru Brand X - first of all thats bad business and second it does not reward those that did support us.  Just because we strive to reward those that support us does not mean we want to punish everyone else.  As far as the "D-S-P" goes there is nothing double, and nothing secret about it - if Bartlett isnt going to hire you I have no qualms about telling you so and the reason why. 

With that said, take it slow & be safe

Eric Bartlett
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: thenukeman on Sep 24, 2009, 02:21
+ Karma for Eric Bartlett and Bartlett,  Common sense and good business sense. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Mar 16, 2010, 11:40
Be careful when complaining about per diem.  If you look at the job postings on the NPUA site many of those list the jobs as being for >1 year, yet they still pay per diem.  Even at the rates you describe, it is illegal to pay per diem for even a single day on a job that is scheduled to last more than a year.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Mar 16, 2010, 11:42
We have no intention to as you say "punish" anyone that works for Brands X, Y or Z- if you go back thru my posts over the years you will see that this is a business practice that Bartlett has used since our conception, we try to hire those that most recently worked for us first, then everyone else - why would we lay some one off and contribute into thier unemployment then hire some one else that was collecting thru Brand X - first of all thats bad business and second it does not reward those that did support us.  Just because we strive to reward those that support us does not mean we want to punish everyone else.  As far as the "D-S-P" goes there is nothing double, and nothing secret about it - if Bartlett isnt going to hire you I have no qualms about telling you so and the reason why. 

With that said, take it slow & be safe

Eric Bartlett

Eric,
We have had discussions before, and I appreciate your willingness to respond and answer concerns. But I have been working for you at CR3 since last June and when I called for an ALARA job in Dec. looking to go somewhere in the spring......I was told that there were NO slots for ALARA. None? You have 70% of the contracts out here and there wasn't 1 slot to go to? This was after a recruiter checked with you on availability. My resume shows I have been doing pretty much nothing but ALARA or Coordinating and they can't find me a slot? What you said above may be true but personally I feel a little slighted. And I'm sure others have experienced the same. Just passing along info that you said you needed to address these kind of things.

Take care
Mark
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HydroDave63 on Mar 16, 2010, 05:55
Thanks for setting me straight T Tarbox. I was wondering why the lodging rates were reduced.

I guess that I am to assume that the price for food, meals and incidentals are also reduced by greater than 40% after 30 days at these sites since the rate drops from $39/day to $20/day ;). Wish that these discounts would apply to my hometown.

Funny thing is, at 0130 when you posted the update, it was interesting to see that some positive change is going on. Now you have to go and get OCD on the subject and anyone who is trying to give helpful advice so that people don't get themselves in a legal pickle over per diem, and ya have to go and disrespect. Not the best spokesperson approach. Now if you will excuse me while I reverse the polarity of the power leads on that +K to a -K....  ;)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Mar 16, 2010, 07:10
As I understand it...

The Per Diem reduction after 30 days is the result of the "hotel tax" on rooms being eliminated after 30 days of consecutive residence in a hotel room;

the Per Diem transforms into "other taxable income" after 12 months, and is no longer "Per Diem".



You guys just don't get this at all.

If the job is expected to last for a year - or if there is no definite end date - per diem can not be paid at all.  Not for a year, not for a month, not for a day.

So, all these great jobs that are being posted with per diem - good or bad per diem - are just traps to get people screwed by the IRS.

Here's a suggestion.  Instead of bragging about how much per diem the NPUA is negotiating, how about let's talk about getting some job security, benefits, training, and higher professional standards?  A union is only valuable if it offers and secures better quality for both the employers and the employees.  If they proceed on the assumption that all they need to do is squeeze more money from the companies, they are not going to get anywhere.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: sammoyers on Mar 16, 2010, 11:08
Be careful when complaining about per diem.  If you look at the job postings on the NPUA site many of those list the jobs as being for >1 year, yet they still pay per diem.  Even at the rates you describe, it is illegal to pay per diem for even a single day on a job that is scheduled to last more than a year.

That is only if you do not return to your "Tax Home" or like myself have a wife at my permanent residence. If I am maintaning a "Tax Home" and work a contract for more than a year, but I maintain my home of record and intend to return to it at the completion of the job, not only is perdiem legal, it is not taxable.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Mar 16, 2010, 11:26
That is only if you do not return to your "Tax Home" or like myself have a wife at my permanent residence. If I am maintaning a "Tax Home" and work a contract for more than a year, but I maintain my home of record and intend to return to it at the completion of the job, not only is perdiem legal, it is not taxable.

Then many people have this wrong as I know of a number of workers who have had to leave a plant and then go somewhere else to reset their per diem. I have had family members working in this business for more than 30 years and as far as I've ever been able to understand perdiem after a year is okay but taxable. I have also not only prepared taxes for the past 20 years, I have dealt with the IRS way back when many of us got slammed after working for IRM.

Here is what the IRS says....


Temporary vs. Indefinite Travel Assignments

Reimbursements of travel expenses for "temporary" assignments away from the tax home are generally not taxable to the employee. If the assignment is "indefinite," the employee is considered to have moved his/her tax home to the new work location. Reimbursements of expenses for "indefinite" travel are taxable. The employer must determine whether an assignment is realistically expected to last less than one year when the assignment begins. .
Rev. Rul. 93-86; Rev. Rul. 99-7

An assignment is generally considered temporary if it is realistically expected to be, and does in fact lasts, one year or less.
An assignment is generally considered indefinite if it is realistically expected to last, and does in fact last, for more than one year.
These rules apply unless the facts and circumstances of the case clearly indicate otherwise. All relevant facts must be considered to determine whether the travel assignment was intended to be temporary or indefinite. Rev. Rul. 93-86; Rev. Rul. 93-7


Temporary" Travel Assignment Becomes "Indefinite"
If an assignment away from home at a single location is, initially, realistically expected to last one year or less, and then later it is realistically expected to last longer than one year, the assignment is considered temporary until the date the expectations change. At that time, the travel is considered "indefinite" and any travel reimbursements from this date on are taxable.

(retrieved March 16 2010 from http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/fringe_benefit_fslg.pdf)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Mar 17, 2010, 12:09
That is only if you do not return to your "Tax Home" or like myself have a wife at my permanent residence. If I am maintaning a "Tax Home" and work a contract for more than a year, but I maintain my home of record and intend to return to it at the completion of the job, not only is perdiem legal, it is not taxable.

That is not true.

Just ask the Travel Tax Experts:
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,18812.msg121125.html#msg121125
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: sammoyers on Mar 17, 2010, 04:51
That is not true.

Oh, okay I guess the tax codes are wrong then, silly me for reading them instead of listen to lawyer speak and numerous years of working away from home, not getting per diem and claiming the expenses straight from the the tables. For more than thirty years now....

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: traveltax on Mar 17, 2010, 07:16
That is only if you do not return to your "Tax Home" or like myself have a wife at my permanent residence. If I am maintaning a "Tax Home" and work a contract for more than a year, but I maintain my home of record and intend to return to it at the completion of the job, not only is perdiem legal, it is not taxable.

Going home does not change the fact that you are continuing to receive income from the same source and tax homes are judged individually, not as a family even if you file joint. Any job expected to last longer than a year is considered "permanent" or "indefinite" in the eyes of the IRS (IRS Publication 463) and do not qualify for tax free allownaces or per diems.

One thing that can be confusing is the fact that a "tax home" and a permanent home/residence are not the same thing. A tax home is based on economic factors, primarily, where the taxpayer makes his/her income, not where they actually keep a home. The income based determination of a tax home is changed when the job or series of engagements are temporary, which is defined as less than 12 months
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Mar 17, 2010, 08:14
Thanks.  This sheds some light on the situation.  It also eliminates the suspicion of false dealings and financial impropriety.

However, it does leave me concerned that Kevin did this EXACTLY BACKWARDS.  He tried to g through the utitlities and then through a contract company.  He should have been going through the techs.  You don't form a union by lining up with a company and recruiting members/employees.  You form a union by recruiting members from among the employees of existing companies and using the power of unity to force the companies to negotiate.

What you have here is NPUA/Spectrum as one entity which bargains for contracts without the input or approval of the membership and then offers the deal to prospective members/employees as a take-it-or-leave-it option.

What you have here is not a union.  You have a company that collects dues from its employees in return for which it gives them practically NO opportunity to earn higher wages.

It isn't criminal.  It's just not a union.  Period.

Don't get offended, but you seem to know eveything about all the subjects spoken on the forums here, but you need to get your facts straight before you start trashing people. If you know so much how to start up a union......then why haven't you or anyone else put your neck out there and risked everything to make a difference for us all? This man at least seems to be doing SOMETHING to better our treatment from these utilities. Be very careful to criticize something if you are not willing to get involved. If you are not involved you have no right or validity to your opinions, especially when they are not based on ALL the facts.

Like I said, please don't get offended. Just some simple advice that may help down the road that I have learned the hard way. I used to be suspicious of EVERYTHING. And also looking at things negatively. I was miserable. I have since tried to look at the good in people and stay positive. Believe me, I am SOOOOOO much happier and at peace with things you wouldn't believe! I wish everyone the best!
Good Luck!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Mar 17, 2010, 09:39
Maybe you ought to know about me.
I have been a union member.  I work with union craftsmen every day.
I know how this works.
What doesn't work is to look at the whole situation like some greedy, hungry dog.  It is not all about how much money you can get for an hour's work.
Yes, HP's have been complaining about the rate for quite some time.
It isn't about how much per diem you can get for an outage.
Again, a major concern for the techs for years.
It isn't even about how many weeks of work you can get in a year.

The one thing that the techs really need, whether they know it or not, is a contract.
Sure, you can post a "proposed" contract on your website.  But that is nothing more than promises made by people who are in no position to keep them.  A contract has to be made by both the labor AND the management.  If you can get an actual contract, all these other things will come to be - maybe with a few compromises from both sides.

You will never get a contract if you just pound that same old drum, "demand, demand, demand"  By definition, and by law, a contract must give equal consideration to both parties.  So, instead of saying "we deserve" or "we have a right to" all the damn time, you want to switch to things like "we will provide a superior service by fully trained, competent technicians in exchange for a fair compensation package."  Then, you have to back it up.

Be careful here.  You might get what you ask for.  If you promise a better-trained technician for a higher price, you have to train them.  Guess who pays for the training of union members.  Yep, it comes right out of your hourly rate.  You pay for it from your paycheck.  And not just your training.  Every hour you work, you'll be assessed for the training of the "apprentices".  You want benefits?  Same deal.  You will pay for benefits that you will never use, and sometimes you will use benefits that are more than you paid for.  This is all part of the "collective" concept of a union.

In my opinion, it is better to have a contract than not.  So, I encourage the formation of a union.  Only, do it with your eyes open.  Realize that it will not mean people throwing huge sums of money at you for doing the same thing at the same level that you have been doing before.

But if you think a BA will be any different from a Bartlett recruiter in regards to favoritism, honesty, and hiring only the best-qualified people -- think again.  Same job.  Same reality.  Different title.  There will be no difference in the way some are treated.  Some will be treated better, and some worse.

Doing SOMETHING is not the same to me as doing the RIGHT THING.  Signing a "letter of understanding" with a Canadian company who is in the business of providing temporary web designers and computer programmers is not the same thing as signing a contract with your employer.  To me, it all looks like an ineffective way to slide in the back door of this business, when the way in is to organize the employees of the existing companies (who WILL have all the work anyway) and getting a contract with them.  Until NPUA shows any evidence of making any attempt at that whatsoever, I won't put any faith in them.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Mar 17, 2010, 01:51
It would be great if 'Kevin', the NPUA founder, would post here and try to clear things up.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Mar 17, 2010, 03:21
What is the purpose of your posts in this thread?

Are you the spokesperson for NPUA?

Are you here to recruit new members and answer questions?

Why do you post with two different profiles?

Why does one of your profiles say "Nukeworker Rules! Donate Now!", yet you are a non-supporting member for either profile?

To clear up the last question. I have a blurp on my ID also that I never personally put there. I thought the site inserted it. How do you change that?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Mar 17, 2010, 05:52
To clear up the last question. I have a blurp on my ID also that I never personally put there. I thought the site inserted it. How do you change that?

Go to your profile and make changes there.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Mar 17, 2010, 06:43
Just like in the 90's alot of armchair quarterbacks on the sideline. Keep up the good work boys and enjoy your bonus this spring. Do you think this gesture will contine next fall without compentention? Think again!

Okay, I have to agree with this, though you probably don't want me to.  Anybody going for the cha-ching is being short-sighted.  As soon as the outage season demands can be filled without bonuses, they will be gone.  So will the sweetheart backup contracts being filled by the little, non-nuclear companies who have signed with NPUA. The techs will once again have to take what is offered or stay home.  If you get a contract, you won't stand to lose 30-50% of your compensation just because the outage was staffed easily.

No, you won't automatically get $35/hr and GSA per diem on every job right out of the gate.  But you'll get the best you can bargain for as long as everyone sticks together.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retired nuke on Mar 24, 2010, 10:54
It would be great if 'Kevin', the NPUA founder, would post here and try to clear things up.

I just visited the NPUA site for the first time....

I doubt anyone that is involved with NPUA could clear up anything.... worse than the old IBEW 1500 group. Amusing, but incompetent..... :o
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Marlin on Mar 24, 2010, 12:24
I do remember those guys,....oh my goodness,..... 8)

I had the opportunity to speak with their organizer out of DC. They had expectations of the techs picking up the load for their own local and the techs expected the IBEW to do the heavy lifting, just another star crossed love affair.  ;)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Mar 24, 2010, 11:29
It would be great if 'Kevin', the NPUA founder, would post here and try to clear things up.

"Mutant" went mute when the wannabe-union became moot........
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Mar 25, 2010, 12:04
I just visited the NPUA site for the first time....

I doubt anyone that is involved with NPUA could clear up anything.... worse than the old IBEW 1500 group. Amusing, but incompetent..... :o

Just another negative soul that has to put other people down to make themselves feel important. You might want to ask the people that have worked Wolf Creek, Nine Mile, Farley and Vogtle. They made and are making alot more money than 90% of the techs out here. What......you complaining because you don't have what it takes to take a risk? As far as your comments go......GROW UP! Personally I wouldn't want a person in the same union with that kind of attitude and devisive mindset.

Good Luck to you sir.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: justme on Mar 25, 2010, 02:58
Don't know about Wolf Creek, Votgle or Farley, but the money went up at Nine Mile BEFORE any backup contracts, not after.
 Remains to be seen if the NPUA will have any effect at all.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Mar 25, 2010, 05:39
Yeah, really.  They are acting like the invented the backup contract.  It's cyclical.  Lots of people doubled their weekly take on backups all through the 80's and 90's.  Every single one of them went right back to the regular pay rate when they no longer happened to be available at the exact moment that a backup contract was being staffed.

But, where's the contract?  Negotiations going well?  Who knows?

This is a Brother-in-law deal and everybody knows it.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Mar 25, 2010, 07:57
 
This is a Brother-in-law deal and everybody knows it.

Na.......I think the NPUA represents the Health Physics Industry, not Safety!

Could be wrong, been wrong before..... ;)

RG!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Mar 25, 2010, 08:33
Good one, RG.  You're half right.  They don't rep the safety professionals.  The question is still very much in doubt as to whom they really represent.

By the way, what ever happened to Spectrum?  There isn't even a link to them on the NPUA website.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: justme on Mar 25, 2010, 09:29
Weird how they went from an American company to a Canadian company.  What ever happened to union does American made?  Another outsource to a country other than the USA.  Did Spectrum dump them or they dump Spectrum????
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Mar 26, 2010, 11:13
Okay, explain it to me really slow.
How does billing an American company,paying part of it to American employees, and sending the rest of it to a Canadian company result in a positive cash flow from Canada to the US?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Mar 26, 2010, 11:55
Bartlett and Mexico...humm :)

Would that be considered out sourcing or in sourcing? ???

The money is coming from Canada and the techs are from the U.S A. Not the reverse

$35/hr, $116/day per diem, time and a half over 8 hours. "God Save the Queen" and keep those Canadian Dollars coming in! Not the American Dollars going out. Kinda refreshing for a change don't you think???

Now that is a technician stimulus plan for the U.S.A.



I'd like to know how many weeks anyone has actually worked and made this amount through the NPUA; I'd also like to hear any stories about the hard feelings caused by techs sitting out until they can come in on a backup contract. I heard rumor that at least 1 utility actually paid ALL the techs regardless of the contractor the NPUA because they did not want any problems.

And finally it seems to me and I may be wrong, but  as far as" Canadian Dollars coming in" how do you come to that conclusion?... American Utility paying American Dollars to the Canadian Contractor holder - then those American Dollars are given to American Workers - minus the cut that said Canadian Contractor keeps as their profit; so in conclusion, yep American Dollars are going out of the country.

Oops, I didn't see BC's post, but heck I'm gonna let mine stand as I want the answer to this too.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Mar 27, 2010, 05:34
BC....Good Question, where did they go.... ::)

Actually my first question pertaining to Spectrum was......Who the Hell are They?

As for the company who replaced them......Who the Hell are They?

I wish them all the luck in the world, but do they actually know our world?  There are thousands of temp staffing companies in the world today and I don't believe there are many with the technical expertise to properly represent our industry.  If they don't speak the industry language, or know the product, then why would anyone expect them to survive in the industry? 

I haven't heard any individuals names associated with these companies, or seen any company profiles, so I may be unjustified with my opinion.

Time will tell,

RG!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retired nuke on Mar 27, 2010, 11:21

This isn't about the petty stuff, this is about fair wages folks. Look at the crafts...do they have the same responsibilities we have? Yet at many sites laborers make more than us. Do professional deconners not deserve a "bonus" how about Jr's? Fair is fair for all people.


Those laborers usually come onsite able to do work. Operate equipment (forklift, etc) safely, understand safety rules and equipment, usually at least basic rigger qual. They support other trades, get the material there, on time. They can read a schedule and understand it.

Too many RP techs walk onsite, need 2 tries to pass the basic knowledge test of their craft, can't look at a station schedule and know what is coming up next, are usually the ones without hardhats, not in fall protection, or standing under a load trying to smear something. Too often their support of other work consists of holding things up because they didn't stage the air sampler or HEPA unit until the crew showed up.

A lot of the time, laborers are worth more.

Let the smites begin.......
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: justme on Mar 27, 2010, 03:47


I know I will get slammed by the 'non Monday night Quarterbackers' or 'non sideliners', but here goes. But I shouldn't as this is America and the last I looked, I have as much freedom to speak as they do.
How many of the heavy supporters are actually working a NPUA job now.  Many are working as suggested by the union organizers, to work DOE or more semi-long term jobs.  How have this affected them as they are not sitting out with the possiblity on not working at all for a season?
I know that some do, but not all. 
 
So far, all that is discussed is what a technician THINKS he/she is worth.  I have worked with techs that are worth more than they are paid, and sadly many more that are not worth what they are paid.  Should the individual that passes all tests with flying colors, but can't cover a simple job, or continuously say "I can't do this or that", be paid what the one who does the job of 2 techs?

I have read and heard comments from those highly supporting the group.  How do you get more support when people are constantly talking down to others who don't 100 percent agree with everything they say?   Speaking to others who have a little different view that yourself, is what caused problems in the past.  For those that say," Forget what happened in the past with the IBEW", I say those who forget the past, are doomed to repeat the mistakes made in the past.

I have spoken with union craft people when they ask about this movement. Many say that more pay should not be the only issue.  They don't agree with paying dues without any healthcare or retirement benefits. Many also do not pay working dues when unemployed, but lesser separation dues.

I know changes need to happen but unless the American way of putting out work to the lowest bidder ends, companies will continue to get the best for the lowest price.  I don't know too many individuals who don't shop around for the best price on anything.

Let the slamming begin.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Mar 27, 2010, 06:32
Are you happy with what you have now?

(That is not including the "bonuses".)

Because they will be a thing of the past if the effort of NPUA goes away. Fact!

Ask youselves.... where were the $10 and $15/hr bonuses the past twenty years. Why are many sites still paying in the low $20's?

Do many of you think this is all you deserve? If so be happy, for that is exactly what you will continue to get.

This isn't about the petty stuff, this is about fair wages folks. Look at the crafts...do they have the same responsibilities we have? Yet at many sites laborers make more than us. Do professional deconners not deserve a "bonus" how about Jr's? Fair is fair for all people.

If the big boys can staff the sites with low wages....they will. That is a fact.


DOE is looking better and better every day. Wait until you see next falls outage schedule....slim pickin's! Factor in DOE demands for techs....there will the same situation in fall as there is this season this season. Commit early and you may miss out on fair wages.....again.

$35/hr, time and a half after 8 hours, double time after 12/hrs and a min. of $116/day per diem....doesn't that seem fair?

OR

$22/hr and $80/day????

I guess it is

 who defines the term fair.

I don't know about anybody else but two old saying come to mind here... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and don't count your eggs before they hatch; I hate to be a downer because I have always been a union person, but something just ain't right with this whole situation. I have seen question being asked for more than a year and still no answers...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Mar 28, 2010, 04:09
ld5030,

This is actually one of your better posts on the topic; not defensive or offensive in reply to those either questioning or disagreeing with you. +K to you for the better approach.

It is my understanding that "The leadership of the NPUA will not participate nor support anything on that website." ("that website" being Nukeworker.com, of course).

I still wish you or someone else would attempt to answer some or all of the questions in the thread; transparency and honesty is the key to trust for any company or organization; while I respect NPUA's decision to decline comment on this site, I think they are passing up on an opportunity for reasonable discussion on the subject; I believe the fact that this thread still exists and Mike has already openly extended the offer to NPUA leadership to contribute shows they will receive fair and equal "time" for their contributions.

Respectfully,

Tim
His NPUa-ness is here every day.  Write "mutant" about the union.  He started it, and has plenty of time to respond....not working.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Mar 28, 2010, 05:17
ld5030,


It is my understanding that "The leadership of the NPUA will not participate nor support anything on that website." ("that website" being Nukeworker.com, of course).


I am not sure that NPUA is not commenting on this site, but they are not "openly" posting on this site. I was with some of the folks that started the movement a few years ago, while we were friends, I didn't initially support the organization. I now believe that the intentions are nobel and aimed to help us as a group. Are they doing a good job? I don't know, I have been away from the conversation for a while as I am a member of different union.

There were some very ugly exchanges in the beginning on this site about the NPUA. It is my opinion that nukeworker.com tried it's best to squash the information NPUA wanted to get out on this site. Maybe that was a play to keep nice nice with the contract companies that advertise here...don't know for sure. But when posts started being deleted and altered (including some of mine at the time) it was painfully obvious that this site does not have open and free conversation at times. That is the choice of the site and I am fine with that. But that was also when I decided not to pay for a membership any longer.

It would be great to have an open line to Kevin and the other members of the NPUA on this site, but I don't know how much it really matters...many many many many technicians and deconners don't ever bother to come to this site. And many that do come here are just looking for job postings or news in the industry.

If anyone thinks that NPUA needs the support of nukeworker.com for success, I don't believe that to be the truth. I would love to see the sharing of information on the subject from the NPUA on this site, but I don't think it's going to happen without the emotions of the few that post on here killing the thread and other opinions or information being erased if it doesn't meet the narrow path of what is acceptable conversation.

And I will say this...My feelings are not unique among many of the technicians I have worked with in the past few years who no longer come to this site for any reason. I personally still find usefull information here and still enjoy some of the threads, but I won't pay until it's open, uncensored, and unbiased.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Mar 28, 2010, 06:00
I am not sure that NPUA is not commenting on this site, but they are not "openly" posting on this site. I was with some of the folks that started the movement a few years ago, while we were friends, I didn't initially support the organization. I now believe that the intentions are nobel and aimed to help us as a group. Are they doing a good job? I don't know, I have been away from the conversation for a while as I am a member of different union.

There were some very ugly exchanges in the beginning on this site about the NPUA. It is my opinion that nukeworker.com tried it's best to squash the information NPUA wanted to get out on this site. Maybe that was a play to keep nice nice with the contract companies that advertise here...don't know for sure. But when posts started being deleted and altered (including some of mine at the time) it was painfully obvious that this site does not have open and free conversation at times. That is the choice of the site and I am fine with that. But that was also when I decided not to pay for a membership any longer.

It would be great to have an open line to Kevin and the other members of the NPUA on this site, but I don't know how much it really matters...many many many many technicians and deconners don't ever bother to come to this site. And many that do come here are just looking for job postings or news in the industry.

If anyone thinks that NPUA needs the support of nukeworker.com for success, I don't believe that to be the truth. I would love to see the sharing of information on the subject from the NPUA on this site, but I don't think it's going to happen without the emotions of the few that post on here killing the thread and other opinions or information being erased if it doesn't meet the narrow path of what is acceptable conversation.

And I will say this...My feelings are not unique among many of the technicians I have worked with in the past few years who no longer come to this site for any reason. I personally still find usefull information here and still enjoy some of the threads, but I won't pay until it's open, uncensored, and unbiased.

After reading your post and reviewing my moderator duties I decided to remove my last post... I do have real question that I'd like to see answers but I will no longer take part in a sparring match as I do not want my thoughts to reflect badly against this site and the good that it does.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Mar 28, 2010, 06:29
Nice pun,.... ;D

I can type over 100 words/minute...not accurately all the time el le el le el le el le...now I'm confused ;D. You get what I mean.



Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Mar 28, 2010, 06:41
After reading your post and reviewing my moderator duties I decided to remove my last post... I do have real question that I'd like to see answers but I will no longer take part in a sparring match as I do not want my thoughts to reflect badly against this site and the good that it does.

Camella, please don't think I was targeting you alone or at all. It was a general statement of my feeling about the site. There is a lot to like about nukeworker.com, this is a great resource for us. But if your going to have a forum, the moderators (as site representatives) need to be unbiased and let the information flow until it gets off topic or too ugly to meet the intent of the thread. Deleting parts of threads that don't seem to go against the rules really can only be percieved as a play to guide the conversation one way or another based on personal opinions. It also appeared that there was some feeling of competition to nukeworker from NPUA when I don't think that was what they were after. I felt that when the NPUA was trying to get the word out on nukeworker, it was handled poorly by the nukeworker administrators. Not trying to pick fights, just giving an opinion on why we are not seeing NPUA represented on this site. It has always appeared that they are not welcome.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: desertdog on Mar 28, 2010, 07:08
His NPUa-ness is here every day.  Write "mutant" about the union.  He started it, and has plenty of time to respond....not working.



Still way off base here, dude.  Might want to recheck your sources and/or keep your delusions to yourself.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Mar 28, 2010, 07:58
Brett, I'd love to address all your points.  I don't think I have the mental stamina to do it all at once, but I'll try to get the important ones.

First,  Moderators on this site are not, and were never meant to be impartial arbiters.  We are members like anyone else, and permitted to express our thoughts.  We have opinions which are not necessarily shared among us and are definitely NOT the official opinions of nukeworker.com.  When I post, I am posting as myself and not as a moderator, unless the post is specifically concerning the conduct of the members.  Unless I am warning someone to keep it clean and on-topic, or something of that nature, my posts are my own.  Camella and the other moderators should be allowed the same privilege as any member.


Second, we do not delete posts that disagree with ours merely because we disagree.  We delete posts that violate forum rules.  I have had many of my posts deleted.  They strayed from the topic too far, so they had to go.  That is fair.  I delete posts that are incoherent, that insult people, that make accusations (especially about specific individuals), that contain profanity ... etc.  Just look at this topic.  I could save myself a lot of time by deleting posts that don't agree with mine.  I bet you can find at least ten posts on this site in under an hour that specifically attack me personally.  I could have deleted them all if I wanted to.  What Troy wants, however, is not a valid criteria for removing a post from the site.  I have had many posts reported to me by forum members that were about me.  I did not delete them.

Next, NPUA really should make an official presence on this site a priority.  Here's why.  Their unofficial presence here hasn't been doing them any favors.  The people who post here in their favor re doing them more harm than good.  The initial references to NPUA that were removed painted them as a bunch of scammers and dirty-dealers.
Here's another reason.  As you have pointed out, many people come to this site just to look for jobs.  If you want their attention, you have to get your message into the places where they are looking.  If you want to feed the ducks, you go to the pond.  If you are too good to go to the pond, then the ducks needn't regard you as much of a friend.

So far, I have been trying to bait them, goad them, or just plain get them mad enough that they can't resist coming here.  No takers.  Why have I been doing that?  Because I want to know - we really need to know - if they are a real union.  So far, all evidence points to no.  A real union is tenacious.  A real union never misses the chance to get their message to the workforce.  For that matter, a real union would never let ANY of my comments go unchallenged.

Even with the noblest of intentions, a failure is a failure.  If they can't organize a significant percentage of the techs and keep them working at those higher-wage jobs, they are just going to price out of the market those who do choose to join.  A real union never tries to put the non-union guys out of business until they have first done everything possible to make the non-union guys into union guys.  The point of the whole union philosophy is strength in numbers.  More numbers means more strength.  Yes, they do need the support of nukeworker - not the site itself, but of the people who do come here for news, job listings, and even the forum.  If a union turns its back on even one potential member; if they aren't willing to fight for the support of a single worker, they simply are not a real union.

I agree with may of the things that they say they want for the tech population.  I disagree with some of the ways they have gone about trying to get them.  And they haven't had the balls to come here and tell me why they are right and I am wrong.  If they can't debate me, they don't have a chance when it comes time to stand up to management over a contract dispute.

If you don't want to pay for a membership, you can give whatever reason you want.  Nobody is forcing you to be a Gold Member.  It is entirely voluntary.  But we are not going to reshape the site to meet the definition of "open, uncensored, and unbiased" that happens to suit you or any other individual.  The forum rules have stood the test of all this time.  There is no reason to change them now to allow unsupported accusations, ad-hominem attacks, unpaid advertisements, or off-topic ramblings.  From the perspective of any given member of the forum, paid or unpaid, censorship is any time one of his or her posts is deleted - no matter why.  Bias is any opinion that is different from his own; openness is the freedom for him to say anything he wants - even if it is libelous, untrue, incoherent, or off-topic; and objectivity is anything that he agrees with.


Oh, and Marssim, it's Noble gasses - not Nobel.  So, there really wasn't much of a pun, was there?  Just a simple typo.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Mar 28, 2010, 08:54
BeerCourt, I am not asking anyone to change anything about the site. We differ in opinions on why some posts get deleted, whatever. I have seen what I have seen and formed my opinions based on that. I am not looking for people who agree, I am giving an opinion on why some of us might not want to donate $ for a membership anymore and why the NPUA might not be on this forum defending themselves. Generally speaking, you represent the site very well from what I have seen. You typically leave emotions out and give differing opinions room to breath and be heard. I don't however, think that all do the same. Particularly where the NPUA is concerned.

I have an opinion about what I would like to see from this site, doesn't mean anything other than I have an opinion. Many others that I know share the same opinion and I thought nukeworker might like to know that, after all, it is a business as well as our resource. It might be worth mentioning why nukeworker has lost some gold memberships so they have a pulse reading on their customers. Doesn't matter if you agree or not, perception is reality. If they are not aligned, an adjustment might be warrented for the good of the site and its members. But that is a nukeworker.com issue, they can do what ever they want and we can respond however we want.

It frustrates me quite a bit how RP's will absolutely crucify someone for something as little as a couple of misspelled words in a post (not referring to my earlier one, I'm good with it, just a general statement on how tough of a crowd WE are at times). The NPUA is starting from the ground level by folks that have good intentions. They get beat up bad for any little conceived mistake as if they should have as much union savvy as a seasoned union like UAW, IBEW or Teamsters. The NPUA has smart people trying to make a difference and having to learn as they go, I won't beat them up for that. I won't let anyone else beat them up without saying something either if I don't think it is fair.

I don't know if they are going about this the most effective way, but I don't want to snuff out a group that is trying to help us as a whole even if I don't agree with everything they do for lack of extensive experience in getting a union off the ground.

RP's can be difficult, opinionated and unforgiving. It is the trait that sometimes makes us successfull as a group, and in this case it is hurting us as a group. If I were Kevin, I would not address this site in any way after the initial experience either. Again, it would be helpfull for them to be on here, but lets not be so proud of our selves in thinking that the majority of RP's are represented here on nukeworker. NPUA has a much bigger audience outside of this forum.

I for one hope they continue to move forward.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Mar 28, 2010, 08:58
You missed all my fun with the 1.8 Senior Techs awhile back,.....

I was all set with Nobel prizes for Noble gasses or is it Noble prizes for Nobel gasses or is it?!?!?!?

Party pooper,...... :P

(that's two groups with no sense of humor, union organizers and moderators) :P :P :P
I thought it was funny :)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Mar 28, 2010, 09:49
tough?!?!,...

pffffft, tough is in the GM arenas (if you can be tough on an internet forum), everything out here is just good natured ribbing, some of us just have delicate ribs,....

stay safe out there in northern cali., sounds like you guys got a good interesting job as long as the funding holds out,...  ;D

We are having a great time at Humboldt, I am in love and scared to death with this plant all at the same time. It is a great experience and pleasure to be here. And funding...This project is a "Trust fund baby". We may run out of money at some point, then the customers get to pick up the bill. This is the best place to have a nuclear decom job, the tree huggers can't wait for it to go away and don't mind if they have to foot part of the bill.

Anyway, back on topic. I've said what I thought I needed to.

Peace 8)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Mar 29, 2010, 07:59
DAM, I had to Moderated Myself...... :'(

BC,

Have you spent that much time and effort on the various companies.... ::)

Besides an Advertizing Banner, some Job Postings and one UNOFFICIAL spokesman, I must have missed something... ::)

I'm riding the line on this issue, neither for, nor against at this point!  Just Lurking, Listening and Learning!

You have to give them credit for one thing, they obviously know how to keep an idiot in suspense.. ;)

Just an Opinion........RG!


Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: let-it-ride on Mar 29, 2010, 11:57
I am curious about NPUA. Such as who are they, etc. I tried NPUA.com and came up with nothing.
What is their website. Thanks
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mohavejoe on Mar 29, 2010, 01:22
tty npua.org
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Mar 29, 2010, 09:06
We are having a great time at Humboldt, I am in love and scared to death with this plant all at the same time. It is a great experience and pleasure to be here. And funding...This project is a "Trust fund baby". We may run out of money at some point, then the customers get to pick up the bill. This is the best place to have a nuclear decom job, the tree huggers can't wait for it to go away and don't mind if they have to foot part of the bill.

Anyway, back on topic. I've said what I thought I needed to.

Peace 8)

Albers still there?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Mar 30, 2010, 02:13
Albers still there?
Please take the off topic Conversation to PM please.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Mar 30, 2010, 09:29
I am curious about NPUA. Such as who are they, etc. I tried NPUA.com and came up with nothing.
What is their website. Thanks

NPUA.org

Good site. They just haven't got all the dropdown lists built yet. Rome wasn't built in a day.
It pretty much explains everything on there, if you just surf through the different topics.

Good Luck!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Mar 30, 2010, 09:48
I am not sure that NPUA is not commenting on this site, but they are not "openly" posting on this site. I was with some of the folks that started the movement a few years ago, while we were friends, I didn't initially support the organization. I now believe that the intentions are nobel and aimed to help us as a group. Are they doing a good job? I don't know, I have been away from the conversation for a while as I am a member of different union.

There were some very ugly exchanges in the beginning on this site about the NPUA. It is my opinion that nukeworker.com tried it's best to squash the information NPUA wanted to get out on this site. Maybe that was a play to keep nice nice with the contract companies that advertise here...don't know for sure. But when posts started being deleted and altered (including some of mine at the time) it was painfully obvious that this site does not have open and free conversation at times. That is the choice of the site and I am fine with that. But that was also when I decided not to pay for a membership any longer.

It would be great to have an open line to Kevin and the other members of the NPUA on this site, but I don't know how much it really matters...many many many many technicians and deconners don't ever bother to come to this site. And many that do come here are just looking for job postings or news in the industry.

If anyone thinks that NPUA needs the support of nukeworker.com for success, I don't believe that to be the truth. I would love to see the sharing of information on the subject from the NPUA on this site, but I don't think it's going to happen without the emotions of the few that post on here killing the thread and other opinions or information being erased if it doesn't meet the narrow path of what is acceptable conversation.

And I will say this...My feelings are not unique among many of the technicians I have worked with in the past few years who no longer come to this site for any reason. I personally still find usefull information here and still enjoy some of the threads, but I won't pay until it's open, uncensored, and unbiased.
Very well said!!! I just don't understand all these negative, suspicious posts? Why can't we come together and SUPPORT each other? My goodness! These negative posts expect this union movement to suddenly appear OVERNIGHT! It takes TIME. Especially when we have so many nay sayers and critical people trying to make up some story or reason why it won't work. People with that kind of attitude and mindset will never be happy and never really succeed in anything. I choose to believe things can happen if we put effort behind it. I am nobody....but at least I choose to think positively (with a sense of educated reality) If people want to criticize everything....you can't change that person.
Good Luck to all of us that hope for a better future.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Apr 04, 2010, 10:18
What unions have you been a member of?

None, sadly I have not had the honor or privilege of working for a union company. I have however supported union workers by walking along side my father when his union was on strike and I was a HUGE supporter of the IBEW recognition strike back in the eighties. Anyone at Hatch should remember that I contacted the AP and attempted to get national coverage of the strike but there was a wire constraint... WRDW Channel 12 in Augusta aired video shot by me at Hatch and I was interviewed by journalist all over the country who were looking for information.

Oh and I almost forgot I was an honorary member of the International Brotherhood of Luders out of Florida City, FL wayyyy back in the early 1980's... anybody out there remember singing the national anthem (Elvira) at the local bar.  :) ;D 8)

Now while this post is slightly off topic, I would like to add... I am pro union, always have been, always will be... I'm not sure about the NPUA and that is mostly due to the actions and attitudes of some here on nukeworker. I also did not agree with what they had to say about Bartlett, I found it distasteful but that is my opinion and only mine.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: johnnyreb on Apr 04, 2010, 04:41
  if it wasn't for the abusive, short sided and ultimately self deprecating actions of Bartlett the NPUA would have no traction at all
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Apr 04, 2010, 07:15
  if it wasn't for the abusive, short sided and ultimately self deprecating actions of Bartlett the NPUA would have no traction at all

Bartlett is a $400M mega-success, and NPUA is on life support.  Them's just the facts.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Apr 10, 2010, 10:09
Brett, I'd love to address all your points.  I don't think I have the mental stamina to do it all at once, but I'll try to get the important ones.

First,  Moderators on this site are not, and were never meant to be impartial arbiters.  We are members like anyone else, and permitted to express our thoughts.  We have opinions which are not necessarily shared among us and are definitely NOT the official opinions of nukeworker.com.  When I post, I am posting as myself and not as a moderator, unless the post is specifically concerning the conduct of the members.  Unless I am warning someone to keep it clean and on-topic, or something of that nature, my posts are my own.  Camella and the other moderators should be allowed the same privilege as any member.


Second, we do not delete posts that disagree with ours merely because we disagree.  We delete posts that violate forum rules.  I have had many of my posts deleted.  They strayed from the topic too far, so they had to go.  That is fair.  I delete posts that are incoherent, that insult people, that make accusations (especially about specific individuals), that contain profanity ... etc.  Just look at this topic.  I could save myself a lot of time by deleting posts that don't agree with mine.  I bet you can find at least ten posts on this site in under an hour that specifically attack me personally.  I could have deleted them all if I wanted to.  What Troy wants, however, is not a valid criteria for removing a post from the site.  I have had many posts reported to me by forum members that were about me.  I did not delete them.

Next, NPUA really should make an official presence on this site a priority.  Here's why.  Their unofficial presence here hasn't been doing them any favors.  The people who post here in their favor re doing them more harm than good.  The initial references to NPUA that were removed painted them as a bunch of scammers and dirty-dealers.
Here's another reason.  As you have pointed out, many people come to this site just to look for jobs.  If you want their attention, you have to get your message into the places where they are looking.  If you want to feed the ducks, you go to the pond.  If you are too good to go to the pond, then the ducks needn't regard you as much of a friend.

So far, I have been trying to bait them, goad them, or just plain get them mad enough that they can't resist coming here.  No takers.  Why have I been doing that?  Because I want to know - we really need to know - if they are a real union.  So far, all evidence points to no.  A real union is tenacious.  A real union never misses the chance to get their message to the workforce.  For that matter, a real union would never let ANY of my comments go unchallenged.

Even with the noblest of intentions, a failure is a failure.  If they can't organize a significant percentage of the techs and keep them working at those higher-wage jobs, they are just going to price out of the market those who do choose to join.  A real union never tries to put the non-union guys out of business until they have first done everything possible to make the non-union guys into union guys.  The point of the whole union philosophy is strength in numbers.  More numbers means more strength.  Yes, they do need the support of nukeworker - not the site itself, but of the people who do come here for news, job listings, and even the forum.  If a union turns its back on even one potential member; if they aren't willing to fight for the support of a single worker, they simply are not a real union.

I agree with may of the things that they say they want for the tech population.  I disagree with some of the ways they have gone about trying to get them.  And they haven't had the balls to come here and tell me why they are right and I am wrong.  If they can't debate me, they don't have a chance when it comes time to stand up to management over a contract dispute.

If you don't want to pay for a membership, you can give whatever reason you want.  Nobody is forcing you to be a Gold Member.  It is entirely voluntary.  But we are not going to reshape the site to meet the definition of "open, uncensored, and unbiased" that happens to suit you or any other individual.  The forum rules have stood the test of all this time.  There is no reason to change them now to allow unsupported accusations, ad-hominem attacks, unpaid advertisements, or off-topic ramblings.  From the perspective of any given member of the forum, paid or unpaid, censorship is any time one of his or her posts is deleted - no matter why.  Bias is any opinion that is different from his own; openness is the freedom for him to say anything he wants - even if it is libelous, untrue, incoherent, or off-topic; and objectivity is anything that he agrees with.


Oh, and Marssim, it's Noble gasses - not Nobel.  So, there really wasn't much of a pun, was there?  Just a simple typo.

I just wanted to say, this is by far one of the best post I have ever read... I some how missed it until yesterday and decided to come back and reread it today.

Not only did you say what many of us have wanted to say about the NPUA, but you hit the nail on the head with this... "First,  Moderators on this site are not, and were never meant to be impartial arbiters.  We are members like anyone else, and permitted to express our thoughts.  We have opinions which are not necessarily shared among us and are definitely NOT the official opinions of nukeworker.com.  When I post, I am posting as myself and not as a moderator, unless the post is specifically concerning the conduct of the members.  Unless I am warning someone to keep it clean and on-topic, or something of that nature, my posts are my own.  Camella and the other moderators should be allowed the same privilege as any member."

Hopefully the NPUA is watching and learning and they will eventually address the concerns that many of us have, whether it is on this site or theirs.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Apr 11, 2010, 04:20
Bartlett is a $400M mega-success, and NPUA is on life support.  Them's just the facts.

In 1979/80 it read something like this...

Rad, IRM, NSS and Numanco are mega-successes and Bartlett is on life support.  Them's just the facts.

 ;)...RG!

 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: justme on Apr 11, 2010, 04:35
Shades of IRM??

 At Nine Mile, 2 NPUA techs didn't report for work cause their company didn't pay them.  Will this be a trend???  Maybe a one time thing, but maybe not.  Not fair to Nine Mile, they didn't cause the problem.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Apr 12, 2010, 05:18
Shades of IRM??

At Nine Mile, 2 NPUA techs didn't report for work cause their company didn't pay them.  Will this be a trend???  Maybe a one time thing, but maybe not.  Not fair to Nine Mile, they didn't cause the problem.

This one is playing out like a cross between the National Enquirer and the New York Daily News!  Bold Headlines on the front page and micro print retractors on page 30!  Once again, excuse my oldness, but if I supply my services and I don't get paid, (union or not), my course would be obvious.....What would your course be?  As far receiving your compensation on an agreed upon day, mistakes do happen and hopefully a knee jerk reaction wasn’t the action.  Of course in today’s technological world misplaced checks can be routed to a site in a day or two.  If they don’t arrive on the second agreed upon day/date, professionally speaking; Any and all previous agreements are nullified! 1-800-NEW-JOBS  

ARC, not IRM!  I know several people who claim IRM screwed them out of money and there may be some bases behind those claims, but ARC outright took the money and ran.  There also seems to be some confusion between who’s who in the nuclear mix?    I don’t remember seeing any direct hire employment opportunities offered by the NPUA!   Passively assigning responsibility, (negative or positive), to an affiliation is an obvious display of stupidity!   Actually it would have been more humorous if it read this way:

At Nine Mile, 2 techs from (BLANK) didn't report for work cause their company didn't pay them.  Will this be a trend???  Maybe a one time thing, but maybe not.  Not fair to Nine Mile, they didn't cause the problem.  

Hell, just fill in the blank….

…justme’s home plant!
…justme’s nuclear high school!
…justme’s home town!
…justme’s political party!

Just another opinion....RG!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Melrose on Apr 12, 2010, 11:31
I believe 'justme' may be a little off base, or just short of not knowing what he/she is talking about, seems I remember who this person is.  I would take it lightly, the contract is being filled by Bartlett and I-3 Solutions.  Now, unless I-3 Solutions is actually NPUA, maybe those are true statements.  If so, what a short fused reaction to something that can be handled overnight.  Good riddence to them.  They'll never be back, if that's the case.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Apr 15, 2010, 06:14
I just wanted to say, this is by far one of the best post I have ever read... I some how missed it until yesterday and decided to come back and reread it today.

Not only did you say what many of us have wanted to say about the NPUA, but you hit the nail on the head with this... "First,  Moderators on this site are not, and were never meant to be impartial arbiters.  We are members like anyone else, and permitted to express our thoughts.  We have opinions which are not necessarily shared among us and are definitely NOT the official opinions of nukeworker.com.  When I post, I am posting as myself and not as a moderator, unless the post is specifically concerning the conduct of the members.  Unless I am warning someone to keep it clean and on-topic, or something of that nature, my posts are my own.  Camella and the other moderators should be allowed the same privilege as any member."

Hopefully the NPUA is watching and learning and they will eventually address the concerns that many of us have, whether it is on this site or theirs.

Thank you Camella, but I do need to clear up one thing.  Moderators are, in fact, meant to be impartial when moderating.  I think I tried to make that clear, even though I contradicted myself.  Even this may not always be the only constraint.  Moderators need to not only be impartial when moderating, but also need to be restrained when posting - to a point.  It is one thing to be honest, and even to have an opinion, but it is also necessary to have the confidence of those who post here that we treat them fairly even when we have contradictory opinions to theirs.  So, even I am going to back off my normally acerbic opinions, climb onto my high, white horse, and play referee for a while.  If I just can't hold it in any longer, I may give up the moderator duties and jump back into the fray.

Peace.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 12, 2010, 06:12
Anybody else noticed the change in tone coming from NPUA lately?

All I can say is, "that's more like it".  (A strange phrase as it happens, but you know what I mean)

Go get 'em!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jun 14, 2010, 10:50
Anyone that may have questions about the NPUA and what they are trying to accomplish should go to their web site and start voicing concerns there. That's why they have a web site and there is a forum section as well. There has been a lot of progress with the site over the past couple years and it's turning out pretty good. I really don't blame them for not responding to questions on this site and I personally don't think that it's in their best interest to do so. You never even know what's going to get deleted.

Jeff, let's get real here... we have companies that have no problem to responding on this site but a Union can't do the same? I know plenty of people who have asked questions on the NPUA site and are still waiting for answers. If nothing else you would think that a professional run organization would have a good P.R. person and that they would be flooding this site with posts in their favor after all this is the most visited site for our industry.

As far as posts being deleted, as a former moderator I don't know of an any posts that have been removed.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Jun 14, 2010, 04:01
Jeff, let's get real here... we have companies that have no problem to responding on this site but a Union can't do the same? I know plenty of people who have asked questions on the NPUA site and are still waiting for answers. If nothing else you would think that a professional run organization would have a good P.R. person and that they would be flooding this site with posts in their favor after all this is the most visited site for our industry.

As far as posts being deleted, as a former moderator I don't know of an any posts that have been removed.
[/quote
Here is the web site. www.npua.org  If people REALLY want their questions answered then go to the site on their forum and ask. Simple as that. It's easy to trash someone or something when you don't have all the facts. I challenge people to go their and ask. What are people afraid of? That this thing may possibly work? Come on,..... grow up and act like professionals.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jun 14, 2010, 07:49
(http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz302/jimsteele1020/Beating_a_dead_horse.jpg)

The same could be said for all the explorers, inventors, researchers and pioneers who never gave up but kept on looking for answers, and asking questions  ;)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Jun 14, 2010, 11:39
(http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz302/jimsteele1020/Beating_a_dead_horse.jpg)


Real professional??? People on this site are a joke. A bunch of wanna bees that don't have the guts to DO anything. Just trash other people to make them feel better about themselves. As far as I'm concerned this will be my LAST post or visit to this site. I don't blame Kevin for not responding on this site. I'm sure your answers to your questions will be addressed on the NPUA site. But then again, most of the people really don't want to know the facts. So I'm sure they probably don't have the guts either to visit the site and "maturely" seek out the truth. They're here just to make cute little funny comments and see who can "out do" the next guy. Don't you people have a life? Geez!
Good Luck!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jun 15, 2010, 12:28
The point was:

1. NPUA representation was never going to visit the site to answer questions. I received that answer directly from the President of NPUA himself when I sent him a link to the thread the last time it fired up.

2. NPUA members were never going to answer questions.  This has been confirmed time and time again; you have proved it again tonight.

3. If people want to know about NPUA, they will need to visit the NPUA website to gain information.

4. Any attempt to continue a fact-seeking quest on this thread is, well..beating a dead horse.

As for me personally, I'm not an RP tech and couldn't care less either way if they unionize or not; it doesn't effect my life either way; that is a decision for the techs to make for themselves. Please feel free to PM me if you can produce any posts where I have trashed NPUA or anyone for that matter. I'll be glad to issue a public apology. I even recall helping you via PM MR BIG, to change your profile to some pro-NPUA slogans.

I stand behind my post. This thread is a dead horse.

Best regards,

Tim



Tim, you are correct. I just hate giving up. I went to the NPUA website again tonight and well I do wish them luck; however having said that I left the site with the distinct impression that "they" (the NPUA) and many posters were more worried about Bartlett than looking for new members. I understand that many people believe Bartlett is evil and does us wrong, but there are many sides to the story and to tell the truth, they pay my bills and have treated us well. I can't see Henry or anyone who is loyal and treated well by Bartlett ever supporting the NPUA supporting anyone who is so anti Bartlett but I may be wrong, and to tell you the truth that is sad as we do need a union.

I also have a feeling that nukeworker is frowned upon by some of the members, case in point go there and type nukeworker into the search box and see what comes up.

Please not this is my opinion only...

It is sad really that for a long time now we have been searching for answers, begging for them really and well we just ain't gonna get them are we?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jun 15, 2010, 10:28
Bartlett Services & Bartlett Support Services have a long record of employing unionized employees (including radiation protection technicians here and there). You could easily end up being union and still having the Bartlett stamp across your paycheck, there will simply be an extra deduction listed along with all the other deductions.

I am going out on a limb here and taking your word as fact  ;); and I want to be clear... I don't have a problem with unions but I do have a problem with some agendas.... like I said before I know some people have a problem with Bartlett but they aren't the only company out there and they sure aren't the worse offenders either... just look on this very website and read some of the SRS threads about some of the companies there.

It would look a lot better all around to me anyway if the NPUA would quit focusing on just 1 company especially in their news section and focus on the industry itself. I'm repeating myself again ... "you catch more flies with sugar than vinegar".




Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jun 15, 2010, 01:43
I also have a feeling that nukeworker is frowned upon by some of the members, case in point go there and type nukeworker into the search box and see what comes up.

I went there and typed 'nukeworker' into the search box, and you know what came up?  They censor their site (even though they say they don't), if you type the word "nukeworker" in their forum, it is replaced with the words "Other Website".

Camella is right, they seem to have a very narrow view of the buisness.  I wish them luck in making things better for everyone.  Thats what we try to do here too.  (Except, you can type NPUA here, and not have it censored.)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 15, 2010, 06:36
I'm getting just a little tired of all the people who log on to this site and tell me to stop talking about NPUA here, and that I shoulg go to www.npua.org.  The fact is that I have gone there quite a few times to get information.  But, if I want to talk about it HERE I AM GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT HERE!!!  If you don't want to read about it here, don't read about it here, but you cannot stop me from discussing whatever I want to discuss whereever I want to discuss it.

Factoid:  There are 57 people logged onto NukeWorker.com.  The last time I looked, NPUA did not have enough members to staff an outage with 34.

Lots of people claim to be for the NPUA.  Lots of people have listed themselves as fans of NPUA on Facebook.  How many are actual, dues-paying members?  How many of you stayed at home this past outage season rather than work a non-union job?  How many of you will refuse to work non-union this fall?  Y'know what I think?  I think there are a lot of fence riders who really want the NPUA to succeed -- because they want more money than they are making now (who wouldn't?) -- but won't commit to NPUA until they do succeed.  It is a self-defeating proposition.  The NPUA will not succeed as long as everyone who hopes to benefit from it reserves their support for it until after it is safe to support them publicly.  If you are saving your support until they succeed, you are part of the reason that they won't.  The support and commitment of the members needs to come first.  Naturally, they aren't doing themselves any favors in garnering support by turning up their nose at the majority of the population.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jun 16, 2010, 10:50
My question : As of today there are over 8 pages of posts concerning question and or comments about the NPUA; I would like to know if anyone has given real thought about addressing these questions either here or on Other Website.




Part of the reply I recieved from Kevin...

"We don't need to answer to a few people from one website who do not represent the opinions of the people we are helping. People on the other website that make unfounded accusations and personal attacks do not deserve a response. Period. We know what we are doing is right by the acceptance we have received from industry leaders. We have ALWAYS been accessible to anyone wanting to have their questions answered. Our phone number is 832.628.6782. It works fine. We average 12,000 minutes a month talking to people who want to stand up and make a change. Our email is admin@npua.org and it works great too.

There are other websites such as http://www.roadtechs.com and http://www.nuclearstreet.com. One website is not the voice of the industry. We should not be required to answer questions on any other website to be accepted as a credible answer to the problem with our industry. I think the article in the April issue of Nuclear News speaks volumes. We have been contacted by other reporters from industry standard periodicals who have requested information on industry events. These are professionals in their field of expertise. I didn't hear them stating that we had to answer questions posed by users of another website. This is where we will answer the questions.
"
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jun 17, 2010, 03:33
Kevin (by proxy) and Jeff have a very valid point.  We shouldn't expect people to come to our site to answer our questions about their company.  People should use the proper channels and methods.

That being said.  The other side of the coin has some valid points as well.  This site is a major source of information for their target demographic.  Just as Eric Bartlett is on here answering questions, so could Kevin.  One has chosen to be represented here officially, and one has not.  Kevin is not alone, Atlantic Grp does not come here and answer our questions either.  It's interesting to see the differences in the three 'companies' and how they market themselves.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: pittbull29 on Jun 17, 2010, 08:21
And you wonder why people call this a Bartlett website????  Just like NPUA, Atlantic Group has a toll-free phone number and they reply to emails.
Title: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 17, 2010, 09:53
The argument, "I won't dignify that with a response" really means, "I don't have a response".  So, it is getting very tiresome to see all the excuses why nobody from NPUA has the guts to come here and talk to us.  Nobody from NPUA has the guts to come here and tell us why they don't want to talk to us.
Basically, if it isn't their canned message, formatted and presented in the way that they want you to see it, they don't have anything to say.
I would hope that someone who expects to negotiate the livelihood of others would be a little bit stronger a debater than that.
Seriously, if all you have to say is that you have nothing to say, then don't say anything.

Excuses are worthless.  If you want to be trusted with the lives and fortunes of many many people, you need to be a little less afraid of confrontation.  If you are afraid to debate me, the lawyers and union busters are going to eat you up.  But you don't even have to debate me.  In fact, I promise not to debate you at all.  All I ask is that you join the discussion.  I ask you to bring your message here instead of making people come and beg you for it.  If you do that, I'll lay off and let you have your say, but STOP sending your proxies here to snipe for you.  It isn't dignified.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: lauriedude on Jun 17, 2010, 10:40
Gee, I said something good about their site and my post is disappeared!  Am I just lost here?  I sometimes can't figure this site out the way the posts are.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: lauriedude on Jun 17, 2010, 10:47
I might add....I couldn't post that on the NPUA.org website because only members can post.  WTF?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: northstardjn on Jun 17, 2010, 11:15
I last posted here in the fall of 2009.  Given what I felt were the less than sincere responses received, I decided to not waste my time.

It appears, however, the tone of the conversation has changed, which is good, so I figured I'll try again.

In 1979 when I got into this business, techs got rental cars (which they trashed) per diem, a days pay and per diem for travel, plus mileage.  Where are we now?

In 1992 I was getting $21.50 and hour plus per diem working as an engineering specialist at Fitz.  What were you earning?

Currently at some plants union laborers make as much or more than HPs. 

We carry a heavy knowledge burden, plants cannot have an outage with out us, yet we still make lower wages than most, if not all, skilled craft.  The only reason why our wages are low is because we are not organized.  There is no other answer which makes sense.

Techs have always been a fractious, independent, and stubborn lot, but I can think of no reason why there is no 100% support for the NPUA except fear.  Fear of not working, I guess.

Look around. Does anyone see a surfeit of technicians?  In most businesses supply and demand determine prices.  Why not in ours?  Is it possible that the two major contract companies, together with the utilities, conspire to keep wages low?  If so, what can we do about it?  That is where the NPUA comes in.

All anyone has to do is sign an Authorization Card send it to the NPUA, and wait.  That's it.  The cards are confidential.  The vote, when it comes, will be confidential.  There is really nothing to fear.

Bartlett has been sued in the past for retaliating against techs who supported the last effort, and Bartlett LOST.  They paid out, rather handsomely in a few cases. 

As to why the two major companies do not want to see us unionize, I think the answer is simple:  Money.

If pay, per diem, and benefits are equal across the board, then the only way for those companies to compete would be to cut costs and profit margins.  The money would come out of their pocket instead of the techs.  And, with equal pay across the board, newer, leaner companies would have the advantage at bidding time, not the large bloated ones.  Just imagine, 4 or 5 companies again instead of two.  Companies who would have to compete for techs, not just threaten them if they went somewhere else to work.

Beercort is right when he says this will fail if techs don't get off their duffs and act.  What will be even more pitiful is those same techs, the ones who take counsel of their fears, will be the ones saying "see, I told you it would fail".  It takes a little courage to stand up for yourself, apparently more than some people have.

Remember, the Authorization Cards are confidential.  The vote is confidential.  If you believe you are being retaliated against you can sue, and the NPUA has lawyers on call who can help.  You really do have nothing to fear but fear itself. 

So, why wouldn't you support the NPUA.

BTW, while they may have been just back ups, the NPUA did supply personnel to 5 outages this spring, 5 outages where the techs made more than most of you did.  Granted, that's just one year, but I worked for Bartlett back in 1980 and all Bruce had was backups.   

As to those who say the NPUA website doesn't have a lot of content, I'll bet Nukeworker didn't either when it started.  We could have this discussion there just as easy as here, but this site is a habit for a lot of people.  It will take time to get them all to switch, but I hope they do.  Personally, while I have only the word of people who say their posts have been deleted to rely on, I too believe this site may be a little biased towards a certain co-sponsor.

I could go on but I'm a hunt and peck typist, and this takes me way too long.

Hope to read some intelligent feedback in the coming days
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jun 18, 2010, 01:44
Personally, while I have only the word of people who say their posts have been deleted to rely on, I too believe this site may be a little biased towards a certain co-sponsor.

I challenge you to say anything you want about me, this site, and any company that sponsors this site.  We allow anyone to say anything.

I would however suggest that you start a new topic to do it, so that you are not off topic.

I started this site because i hated the censorship on roadwhore.  I don't believe in censoring people.  Say anything you like.  If you did a search of this site, you will see many people blasting me, this site, and the companies that sponsor this site.

It's perfectly ok to speak your mind here.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jun 18, 2010, 01:59
The argument, "I won't dignify that with a response" really means, "I don't have a response".  So, it is getting very tiresome to see all the excuses why nobody from NPUA has the guts to come here and talk to us.  Nobody from NPUA has the guts to come here and tell us why they don't want to talk to us.
Basically, if it isn't their canned message, formatted and presented in the way that they want you to see it, they don't have anything to say.
I would hope that someone who expects to negotiate the livelihood of others would be a little bit stronger a debater than that.
Seriously, if all you have to say is that you have nothing to say, then don't say anything.

Excuses are worthless.  If you want to be trusted with the lives and fortunes of many many people, you need to be a little less afraid of confrontation.  If you are afraid to debate me, the lawyers and union busters are going to eat you up.  But you don't even have to debate me.  In fact, I promise not to debate you at all.  All I ask is that you join the discussion.  I ask you to bring your message here instead of making people come and beg you for it.  If you do that, I'll lay off and let you have your say, but STOP sending your proxies here to snipe for you.  It isn't dignified.

I could not agree more; this game of I'm not going to tell you unless you come to me is for the birds. I have spent the last couple of hours visiting the 2 other sites that were mentioned to me and wouldn't you know it there is no information to be had on their websites either. So the only source I can find for information is from the NPUA website... even a 5th grader is smart enough to know you must have more sources than one.

I guess it is very clear that we may be talking about the NPUA, but we won't be talking to them. As far as calling or emailing them, I know of people who are still waiting for emails to be answered and I don't understand the refusal to put the facts or data out there for all to see without having to beg for.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Jun 18, 2010, 01:12
I might add....I couldn't post that on the NPUA.org website because only members can post.  WTF?

Here we go again with mis-information. NO, NO. NO......you DO NOT need to be a member to post on NPUA.org. You do however need to "register" on the forum link. You can remain anonymous. No one will know who you are. You can simply "make up" an e-mail address to register. It will accept it and then you can post.

Just wanted people to know the FACTS.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: lauriedude on Jun 18, 2010, 01:30
Well, thanks for that.  I guess I thought I registered when I filled out the card(s) at my work sites.  My bad :'(  Sorry
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: northstardjn on Jun 18, 2010, 07:57
"I challenge you to say anything you want about me, this site, and any company that sponsors this site.  We allow anyone to say anything.

I would however suggest that you start a new topic to do it, so that you are not off topic.

I started this site because i hated the censorship on roadwhore.  I don't believe in censoring people.  Say anything you like.  If you did a search of this site, you will see many people blasting me, this site, and the companies that sponsor this site.

It's perfectly ok to speak your mind here."  Rennhack

Well, number one, I really can't point to something on this site that has been censored, be it NPUA or anything else.  Proving a negative is always tough.

Number two, I believe somewhere in this thread Camella Black states that as a monerator, she has (had) the right to object
to content ( "First,  Moderators on this site are not, and were never meant to be impartial arbiters. ")  This statement seems to contradict the "lack of censorship" argument posed by you, Mr. Rennhack.  That or you are engaging in sophistry.  You know "I didn't do it.  I can't help what someone else, whom I appointed, does".  That particular scenario shows a lack of calcified vertabrae  (linguini spine).

Third, Bartlett is a co-sponsor.  You work for Bartlett.  As I understand it, you went from deconner to Rad Engineer, a pretty meteoric rise, considering it's hard to get an ALARA tech spot with any company unless you know somebody.  The appearance of a conflict of interest is quite high.

Fourth, as I stated above, while a union will help all techs, it will have a negative effect on the bottom line of rent-a-tech companies, at least the major ones.  I am sure that, as an intelligent man, you can understand why some such as myself are less than assured that Bartlett exerts no influence on you or the content of this site.  This, by the way, is one reason why the NPUA does not post here.  The feeling has been that, in the past, postings have been censored, possibly MS. Black being a less than objective moderator.

As I said, it's tough to prove a negative.  Perhaps, going forward, the NPUA will take you at your word and post here, believing that you won't engage in censorship from here forward.  I'll try to send that message to them.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Marlin on Jun 18, 2010, 09:30
Mr northstardjn,
   I am not currently a moderator but had been one for quite some time. We enforced the nukeworker rules as they were posted, when a moderator went beyond that stated function they were no longer moderators. I find your insinuation insulting and pompous. The company you seem to think is favored on this site has had many negative posts and debate about it positive and negative. If you and the NPUA can't handle the same treatment maybe you belong back up on the porch with the rest of the puppies.
  If you are finding some resistance to a union many of us have been there and done that, and when push came to shove many of the vocal advocates were in the plant while a few of us were out on the picket line. I don't have a dog in the union race as I have not swung a meter in a long time but I have recently been a moderator on this site and do take umbrage at your baseless accusations.

Not being a moderator allows me a lot more freedom to respond to tripe like this. We have now both violated rule number 4:

4. Please learn to be respectful, tolerate and support each other.  NukeWorker.com's goal is to help others, not see how many people we can annoy. Do not initiate arguments or tension. This will only cause the triggering of other members and make this site less professional.



Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 18, 2010, 10:20
Northstardjn,

You and I seem to have a fairly similar outlook on the situation.  Like you, I have seen the profession falling into a pitiable state over these last few years.  I want NPUA, or any legitimate organizing effort, to succeed.  This is why I am so hard on them.  They simply have to do this right or they will set back the profession even further.

At first, I was skeptical as anyone should be when someone offers you help that you didn't ask for.  I saw the early communication from NPUA as basically a scam.  Since then, I have been given reason to believe that it is not a scam, but perhaps misguided in its approach.  Now, it seems that they are aiming at the proper target, but STILL not using the right ammunition.  They are actually pushing people away -- or at least not attracting them strongly enough.

Remember 1990?  The IBEW never got my support in that effort because they never tried to get it.  They were indifferent, arrogant, or stupid.  Take your pick.  You can not get better wages and conditions without leverage.  By leverage, I mean enough people behind you that the employers have no choice but to bargain with you.  One outage here or there, or a few backups, is not enough to make them change their ways.  It isn't magic.  You just need to get enough technicians to say, "this is my union, and I will not work for you anywhere unless you bargain with them".  That is all.

As for Mike Rennhack being a Bartlett puppet, that is ludicrous.  The last two times I saw him, his hardhat had some other company's logo on it.  The sponsorship fee that Bartlett pays to this site is not enough to sway him or anyone else into saying what we don't believe.  It probably isn't even enough to cover the cost of running the forum.  I haven't worked for Bartlett in over six years.  That doesn't mean that I hate them.  It just means that I got a better job.

Mike has specifically instructed the moderators not to delete posts unless they violate the forum rules, and even then only if it is a significant enough violation to warrant the deletion of the post.  The last post I deleted was a one-liner that added NOTHING to the discussion from someone who was a member for only a short while.  And then I only deleted it after he had cancelled his membership.  The comment itself didn't agree or disagree with anyone.  It was just taking up space without saying anything at all.  If you read back a few pages you'll see that I don't tend to delete posts that disagree with me, or even insult me personally.  I delete the ones that don't say anything.  It is difficult for people to follow this discussion if it gets too filled up with meaningless junk.

Still the questions linger and go unanswered.  All we ask is that someone come here and give the NPUA's side of the story.  If we are saying things here that are incorrect, why not set us straight?  What on Earth are they afraid of?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jun 18, 2010, 10:57
"I challenge you to say anything you want about me, this site, and any company that sponsors this site.  We allow anyone to say anything.

I would however suggest that you start a new topic to do it, so that you are not off topic.

I started this site because i hated the censorship on roadwhore.  I don't believe in censoring people.  Say anything you like.  If you did a search of this site, you will see many people blasting me, this site, and the companies that sponsor this site.

It's perfectly ok to speak your mind here."  Rennhack

Well, number one, I really can't point to something on this site that has been censored, be it NPUA or anything else.  Proving a negative is always tough.

Number two, I believe somewhere in this thread Camella Black states that as a monerator, she has (had) the right to object
to content ( "First,  Moderators on this site are not, and were never meant to be impartial arbiters. ")
  This statement seems to contradict the "lack of censorship" argument posed by you, Mr. Rennhack.  That or you are engaging in sophistry.  You know "I didn't do it.  I can't help what someone else, whom I appointed, does".  That particular scenario shows a lack of calcified vertabrae  (linguini spine).

Third, Bartlett is a co-sponsor.  You work for Bartlett.  As I understand it, you went from deconner to Rad Engineer, a pretty meteoric rise, considering it's hard to get an ALARA tech spot with any company unless you know somebody.  The appearance of a conflict of interest is quite high.

Fourth, as I stated above, while a union will help all techs, it will have a negative effect on the bottom line of rent-a-tech companies, at least the major ones.  I am sure that, as an intelligent man, you can understand why some such as myself are less than assured that Bartlett exerts no influence on you or the content of this site.  This, by the way, is one reason why the NPUA does not post here.  The feeling has been that, in the past, postings have been censored, possibly MS. Black being a less than objective moderator.
As I said, it's tough to prove a negative.  Perhaps, going forward, the NPUA will take you at your word and post here, believing that you won't engage in censorship from here forward.  I'll try to send that message to them.

Northstardjn, please recheck your facts and post accordingly; at no time did I make the above statement, however I did state that I agreed with it. The author was in fact Beercourt.

I have to pull out the hip boots on the statement that postings have been censored on this thread as I follow it closely and have never seen anything being removed that related to the topic. As far as my former moderating, please understand that we moderators were assigned areas and moderated only those that we assigned. I'm a big girl and have no problems with pushing for answers or a response from the NPUA....now if you posted an off topic post in either the lodging, community or GM Entertainment sections then yes I may have deleted it.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: northstardjn on Jun 19, 2010, 08:43
Thanks for the responses.

First off, I owe MS Black an apology.  The quote I used was in the body of a response sent to in regards to a Beercort posting, which is where I got it from.  I did read the whole thing, and took away from the quote that moderators were not being objective in their duties.  I really don't have time to read everything on this thread, but I should have caught the quotation marks. I missed them.  Sorry. I was wrong to attribute that to you, Ms Black.  I'll do my best to read closer in the future.

Second, at no time have I said or accused Mr. Rennhack of being a Bartlett puppet, but the conflict of interest remains, and, given what sooo many others have said about being censored, that possibility exists.  I have read enough of Mr. Beercorts posts to know that he has been honest, and , as I stated, going forward I will take this site at face value.

In 1992 I was working for performance engineering, as stated, at Fitz.  I knew the head of the department, who liked my work as an ALARA tech and offered me a position based on that work.  So, yes, I did know somebody.  Your point? 

As to getting the NPUA to post on this site, I'm trying.  I do know some of what the strategy is, and where things are headed, but I am not sure it's my place to speak to those issues.  I am going to try and get someone who can speak to those issues here, but, for all the reasons mentioned in my last two posts, it's tough sledding.  I'm sorry if no one likes it, but this site DOES have the reputation for censoring, there is an apparent conflict of interest, and getting through to those who feel they have been censored isn't easy.   

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 19, 2010, 10:22
And thank you for your response.

I see that you are still a little wary of NukeWorker because we have a sponsorship from Bartlett.  I understand that you see the potential for a conflict of interest there.  But, consider this:

Any other company is welcome to sponsor this site at the same or higher level than Bartlett.  The NPUA is free to do so also.  Every utility and the vast majority of companies who contract with nuclear sites have posted jobs on this site.  They compete with each other and with Bartlett.  No sponsorship has made us turn them away.  As Mike has pointed out, there is PUHHHHLLLLEEEENTTTTYYYYY of anti-Bartlett sentiment expressed here all over the forum.  The only reason why Bartlett's side is represented here is that they choose to come here and give it.  This option is, again, available to all their competitors, and to the NPUA, free of charge. 

People will claim censorship whenever their own posts are edited or deleted.  Most of those who cry foul when we moderate their posts will also quickly click the Report to Moderator button on someone else's.  The fact is that we do not censor; we moderate.  The term is exactly what it says.  To moderate means that we keep the conversation civil.  We remove or edit things that are offensive, illegal, libelous, or unfair.  We clean up the clutter, organize the forums by putting posts in the proper places, remind the members of the rules, and try to help and give information.  So, ask yourself this, when someone cries that we are "censoring" his posts, is there a reason why?  Could it not be that the post was beyond the bounds of civil discourse?  Did we warn the member not to break the rules?  Did we ask or give him the opportunity to repost the message without the offensive content?  Really, can you just look around this site and say objectively that we censor people?  I mean, if we allow what we allow, what outrageous exception would we not allow?  If you can see all the posts where people are hanging over the edge of civility, bashing our sponsors, slamming our advertisers, insulting us personally, accusing, complaining, and throwing mud in ALL directions, what in the hell can be left?  No, if someone tell you he was censored on this site, you can be sure that he posted something that was an egregious violation of the rules and it got deleted or edited.

Honestly, I believe that I have never deleted or edited a post where the poster didn't look like a jerk (or more of a jerk) before I moderated his content.  They should actually be thanking us for saving them from embarrassing themselves. 

Now, can we please get back to the discussion?  I really want to know, how many members does NPUA have?  They claim to have hundreds, but there were not hundreds of techs refusing to work this past season for the non-union companies.  They staffed Wolf Creek with 59 people and only 15 showed up.  A union with hundreds of members should not only have filled all 59 spots, but there should have been a waiting list.
So, when I ask how many members they have, I'm not talking about how many resumes they have, or how many authorization cards they've collected; I'm asking how many dues-paying members in good standing are actually affiliated with this union?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smart People on Jun 19, 2010, 12:51
If I remember correctly, when Rennhack started the co-sponsor idea he offered it to several staffing companies. Bartlett was the only one who took him up on it. They are just paying for advertising space. Bartlett has no influence on the administration of the site.

If you'll check the Bartlett thread, several postings are negative to the company. They don't cry about it. But they do respond and give their side of the story. Knowing that Eric Bartlett will respond to posts and either explain the situation or find out the facts definitely generates respect from this poster.

All we are asking (I think) is that NPUA come on this site and do the same thing.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HydroDave63 on Jun 19, 2010, 04:41
(http://themixtapemonster.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/popcorn_soda.jpg)

On-topic: At this point, no amount of 'mechanical agitation' is going to sway anyone's opinion. Thread lock?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 20, 2010, 12:25
Mell -

I made no assumption.  I asked BC a couple of questions in an open forum about a statement he made in the same open forum.  If the questions go unanswered, then maybe I'll have to make an assumption.

We all know how easy it is to say we want a cause to succeed - save the whales - stop global warming - end the U.S. dependency on foreign oil - even the NPUA and their efforts to organize technicians.

We achieve nothing by simply saying we want these, or any cause, to succeed (or fail).  What makes a difference (and more sense) is actually doing something to help achieve what we publicly delare we support.

Actions speak much louder than words.



GEEEEZZZUUUZZZ!  How much more should I have to do?  Look, I have nothing to gain or lose if NPUA succeeds or fails.  I achieve nothing either way.  If any of you really want to know how to double your pay immediately I can tell you how, but I'm not going to do it for you.  I am simply offering some advice, perspective, opinion, and information.  NO!  I am NOT going to wrap it in velvet and hand-carry it on my knees to them.

Frankly, I really think that this union and their 14 active members are acting pretty high and mighty for a group of people with so little power and so little support.  I'm doing my best, but I don't have to do it by their rules -- ESPECIALLY if I think they have their heads way up their rectal passages.  If they need support, they will not get it by being arrogant and insular.  If they need members and need to spread their message, they have to spread it to the four winds and plaster it on every wall (especially this one) that they can find.  They need to be a little bit more amenable, get their noses out of the air and get on this site and answer the questions.

For the other side, if techs want this union, if they want what it offers, if they want it to prevail, they have to be a part of that process by joining it and standing by it.  You have no right to call yourself a member of NPUA if you submitted your resume to them when they waived $45/'hr at you and then backed out when you found out that they didn't have any other contracts.  Basically, if you want a gain, you have to take a risk.  You can't wait until the union succeeds before you join because the union will not succeed until you join.

But I am not here to help the NPUA.  I'm really here to help the members of NukeWorker.  I'm trying to get them some answers to important questions.  Yes, I have read the forum on the NPUA website.  But amazingly enough, I still don't know what I want to know.  I think that if someone wants to recruit any member of NW, then they owe the members of NW these answers.  I'm talking about things like: when is your next election (or did you appoint yourselves for life)?  Who will be eligible to run for office at the next election?  What companies have you successfully negotiated a contract with?  What happened to Spectrum?  How do you expect to get back your $30,000.00 that you personally invested in this venture?  Who will pay that?  What compensation do your officers and board members get?  What is the source of those funds?  Are your financial records open to inspection by prospective members?  Who is your independent auditor?  How can a board member of NPUA be "certified"by the NRRPT?  How can he have been "certified" by the NRRPT thirty years ago if he only has 13 years of nuclear experience?  How can a member expect you to get his pension correct if you can't even write two lines of biographical information about yourself without screwing that up? 

Yeah, yeah.  You won't dignify any of that with a response?  I know.  Good luck with that approach.  Call me in a year and let me know when it was that you realized that it was the wrong idea.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 20, 2010, 01:21
But they are reading this.  You can bet on that.  And don't be too sure that their "official" reps haven't been posting here.  They just don't want to admit to it because that would let the cat out of the bag that they got no game.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jun 20, 2010, 12:36
But they are reading this.  You can bet on that.  And don't be too sure that their "official" reps haven't been posting here.  They just don't want to admit to it because that would let the cat out of the bag that they got no game.

Amen to that brother (lord I miss Lost)... and thanks for asking the questions you did.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Jun 20, 2010, 02:39
This whole thread has become completely ridiculous. I am sure that NPUA reps spend hours pouring over this thread to see what someone says next!

If no one can look through this thread and figure out pretty quickly why the NPUA does not, and should not waste it's time in responding...Well, it just seems pretty obvious to me.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jun 20, 2010, 08:24
Just a little history from the guy that’s seen this site from the beginning, before it was even called nukeworker.com.
The first three years “NukeWorker.com” existed, we had no sponsors, and accepted no advertising dollars.  The sites name is nukeWORKER because it is for the workers.  IT’s not nuke jobs, or nuke recruiters, or nuke news, or nuke tourist, or nuke anything else.  It’s about the workers.  The NUCLEAR workers.

I created this site, as I said, because roadwhore banned my IP address, disallowing me to even visit their website because I asked a question about one of the companies that paid them to post jobs.  I had been a computer enthusiast since I was 12 years old, and had experience in old school BBS’s, electronic communities.   There was no place we could go and speak our minds.  I believe that if a company is doing wrong, we need to let our fellow nuke workers know about it.  WE are the only people WE can rely on. WE are the only people that understand what it’s like to be out there.

At the 3 year mark, our server bills were over $650/mo.  That was hard for me to pay for out of my own pocket, when I wasn’t making that in a week.  So we started allowing companies to pay for job postings and Banner Advertising.  Bartlett was the 19th company to sign up as a company on our site to post jobs.  Babcock/Isolve was 11th, and EDI was the first.  You always remember your first.

The first company to get the “Co-Branding” button ad was SEC, who had it for several years, they used it to advertise their instrument lab.  The advertising did well for the lab, but one year they decided to not renew.  I sent out an email to all of the companies that sponsor the site, and offered them the spot.  The only company to respond was Bartlett.  (Sad, I know… you would have thought that more companies would be interested… but they were not.)  When SEC had the button ad on the site, people thought SEC owned the site, and with Bartlett’s logo up there, they think Bartlett has some special sway.  No advertiser has sway over me, or this site.  The sites income generated from Bartlett accounts for less than 5% of the sites total revenue.  So I’m not going to jeopardize 95% of our revenue to satisfy 5%.  That’s just silly. 

The only companies that have ever asked me to remove something, and I complied with,  was just about every nuclear plant post 911, they asked me to remove pictures of their plant, until everything could be reviewed by security.

Additionally, I’ve dropped an advertiser because they tried to get me to change something that was said on our site.  (A company advertising OSHA training) They said it was hurting their revenue, and that the information on the site was inaccurate.  (Our site said you couldn’t get OSHA training online) I dropped them as an advertiser for even asking me to change something.  And you know what?  They were correct about the information being wrong.  It wasn’t about them being right or wrong, it was them threatening to change their advertising spending if I didn’t change what the site said.  I saved them the trouble.

I view the website not so much as mine, but ours.  It belongs to every nuke worker, I’m just managing it for us the best I can.

I don’t want any censoring on this site at all, and I only want the least amount of corralling as possible.

NPUA won't be treated any differently than any other company or organization.  No better, no worse.

I'd like to see NPUA buy a job posting agreement, and a banner ad... And that button ad... Then people could say I was a puppet for the NPUA.

Later, when I have time, I'll write a nice bit about how Bartlett isn't my main employer (http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,18812.msg124925.html#msg124925).  As Troy mentioned, 3 of my last 5 jobs were with Shaw, one of Bartlett's competitors (The other 2 with Bartlett ... after-all, I AM a rad guy,and they are the biggest rad company out there... If I want to work rad, why exclude them?) 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Jun 21, 2010, 07:32
Mike,

What's the TOPIC again...... ::)

I couldn't help myself.....RG!





Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Dave Warren on Jun 21, 2010, 10:28
I must be the most black-hearted SOB in the business,......heheheheheh,.... :P :P :P :P :P

Tongue-in-cheek
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jun 21, 2010, 02:11
Personally, while I have only the word of people who say their posts have been deleted to rely on, I too believe this site may be a little biased towards a certain co-sponsor.
Third, Bartlett is a co-sponsor.  You work for Bartlett.  As I understand it, you went from deconner to Rad Engineer, a pretty meteoric rise, considering it's hard to get an ALARA tech spot with any company unless you know somebody.  The appearance of a conflict of interest is quite high.

Later, when I have time, I'll write a nice bit about how Bartlett isn't my main employer. 

Ok, It's later...

Bartlett has been a great employer, but they are not my universe.  They are one of 12 employers I have had, and account for only 37% of my employment over the last 20 years.  They have only given me one career advancement out of seven, and that was a Jr HP Job (Gasp). 

As I understand it, you went from deconner to Rad Engineer, a pretty meteoric rise, considering it's hard to get an ALARA tech spot with any company unless you know somebody.  The appearance of a conflict of interest is quite high.

NOTHING meteoric, just a lot of hard work.  And obviously all of my really good 'breaks' were given to me by companies other than Bartlett.  First Job was with Westinghouse; First Sr HP was with GTS, First real Supervisor and Engineer jobs were with SEC, First ALARA Engineer & Safety Engineer jobs were with Shaw.

•   1989 1st Nuclear Plant Jr Decon Job - Westinghouse RS
•   1991 1st Time on Probation – Bartlett
•   1992 1st Per Diem Jr Decon Job - ARC
•   1995 1st Sr Decon Job – ARC
•   1997 1st First Jr HP Job - Bartlett
•   1997 1st "Sr" HP Job - Envirocare
•   1998 1st 18.1 Sr HP Job at Power Plant - GTS
->   1999 Started NukeWorker.com <--------------------------------------------
•   2000 1st Sr HP Job at DOE Site (Oral Boards) – GTS
•   2000 1st 3.1 Sr HP Job at Power Plant - Bartlett
•   2001 2nd Time on Probation – Bartlett
•   2001 1st REAL RP Supervisor job  - SEC
•   2003 1st FSS Engineer Job- SEC
•   2007 1st ALARA Engineer job at a Power Plant - Shaw Stone & Webster
•   2008 1st Safety Engineer Job at a power plant - Shaw Stone & Webster

I've been 'fired' twice while working for Bartlett, to include being placed on probation.

These are the facts.  "As I understand it" you are wrong. I have proven that Bartlett has given me no special breaks, and I have proved that they are not a significant overall source of revenue.  Now I would appreciate it if you stopped spreading lies about me, and mis-information.  An apology would be nice too.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RADBASTARD on Jun 22, 2010, 07:01
Wow for someone who has nothing to lose or gain you really seem occupied with this npua thread?
I'm so glad the techs have you on their side to look out for them and their welfare.
As far as us doubling our money O wise and great one.You could tell us but you won't oooohhhh .
I guess if I could get a gig as a stand in or body double for the next Harry Potter Movie I could double my money LOL
As far a wraping it in velvet im kinda partial to velour if you would be so kind.


The npua is trying to help techs make as much money as they can giving them an option.
 Out there you have laborers for example making almost as much as the techs with a way better beni's package and the don't have any responsiabilties that the techs have.

We can see your not here to help the NPUA and as far as them calling you in a year you got about as much chance of that happening as obama calling the glen beck show.

Im sure the techs are glad that you got their backs and are looking out for them with the Npua
GEEEEZZZUUUZZZ!  How much more should I have to do?  Look, I have nothing to gain or lose if NPUA succeeds or fails.  I achieve nothing either way.  If any of you really want to know how to double your pay immediately I can tell you how, but I'm not going to do it for you.  I am simply offering some advice, perspective, opinion, and information.  NO!  I am NOT going to wrap it in velvet and hand-carry it on my knees to them.

Frankly, I really think that this union and their 14 active members are acting pretty high and mighty for a group of people with so little power and so little support.  I'm doing my best, but I don't have to do it by their rules -- ESPECIALLY if I think they have their heads way up their rectal passages.  If they need support, they will not get it by being arrogant and insular.  If they need members and need to spread their message, they have to spread it to the four winds and plaster it on every wall (especially this one) that they can find.  They need to be a little bit more amenable, get their noses out of the air and get on this site and answer the questions.

For the other side, if techs want this union, if they want what it offers, if they want it to prevail, they have to be a part of that process by joining it and standing by it.  You have no right to call yourself a member of NPUA if you submitted your resume to them when they waived $45/'hr at you and then backed out when you found out that they didn't have any other contracts.  Basically, if you want a gain, you have to take a risk.  You can't wait until the union succeeds before you join because the union will not succeed until you join.

But I am not here to help the NPUA.  I'm really here to help the members of NukeWorker.  I'm trying to get them some answers to important questions.  Yes, I have read the forum on the NPUA website.  But amazingly enough, I still don't know what I want to know.  I think that if someone wants to recruit any member of NW, then they owe the members of NW these answers.  I'm talking about things like: when is your next election (or did you appoint yourselves for life)?  Who will be eligible to run for office at the next election?  What companies have you successfully negotiated a contract with?  What happened to Spectrum?  How do you expect to get back your $30,000.00 that you personally invested in this venture?  Who will pay that?  What compensation do your officers and board members get?  What is the source of those funds?  Are your financial records open to inspection by prospective members?  Who is your independent auditor?  How can a board member of NPUA be "certified"by the NRRPT?  How can he have been "certified" by the NRRPT thirty years ago if he only has 13 years of nuclear experience?  How can a member expect you to get his pension correct if you can't even write two lines of biographical information about yourself without screwing that up?  

Yeah, yeah.  You won't dignify any of that with a response?  I know.  Good luck with that approach.  Call me in a year and let me know when it was that you realized that it was the wrong idea.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 22, 2010, 10:20
Wow for someone who has nothing to lose or gain you really seem occupied with this npua thread?
I'm so glad the techs have you on their side to look out for them and their welfare.
As far as us doubling our money O wise and great one.You could tell us but you won't oooohhhh .
I guess if I could get a gig as a stand in or body double for the next Harry Potter Movie I could double my money LOL
As far a wraping it in velvet im kinda partial to velour if you would be so kind.


The npua is trying to help techs make as much money as they can giving them an option.
 Out there you have laborers for example making almost as much as the techs with a way better beni's package and the don't have any responsiabilties that the techs have.

We can see your not here to help the NPUA and as far as them calling you in a year you got about as much chance of that happening as obama calling the glen beck show.

Im sure the techs are glad that you got their backs and are looking out for them with the Npua

It's simple enough.  I care about my friends and former co-workers.  I want them to get a fair deal.  I'd be happy for them to get ahead and sad to see them get disappointed.

I said I'd tell you how, but I wouldn't DO IT FOR YOU.  Read a little more carefully next time.  And the answer is simple.  If you want twice the money you make now, you can convince me to hire you.  The lowest paid employee at our shop makes twice as much as a Sr. RP at the end of the week.  The highest paid ones ... well, I don't want to make it hurt too much so I won't go into that.  They work the same outage season that you do.  That does not include the GSA per diem that they all get.  With that said; it isn't as easy as you think.  Crying and whining won't get you there.  You have to earn the job.  You have to stand out as a sharp, motivated, intelligent worker. 

If all NPUA is trying to do is get the techs more money, you're all screwed.  That is not what a union is for.  If that is what you think it is for, you will be pretty mad later.

Don't give me the crap about laborers not having the responsibility.  RP's usually get paid for a 72 hour week during an outage.  With OT after 40 that comes out to 88 hours of straight pay every week.  36 hours in the break room plus 30+ hours of sitting at a control point or CCTV monitor telling war stories, leaves <6 hours a week to do any real work.  88 for 6 is pretty good.  That laborer is getting a lot more done with his time.  Does it make him more important than you?  Not necessarily, but somebody seems pretty willing to hire lots of 'em even at a higher rate than yours.  You figure it out.

No, they won't be calling me next year.  I'm aware of that.  I also won't be sitting by the phone waiting.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Old Dude on Jun 24, 2010, 07:30
WOW Beer Court,
I used to think you were a stand up guy, but your disdain for the hard working HP techs has opened my eyes.
You are truly a fat headed Jackass.
To think techs only work 6 hours in a 72 hour week is insulting to the techs and the utility.
Maybe your safety techs work that way, but in this day and age the utilities do not give us breaks like the old days especially in a BWR.
You talk a lot of crap about the NPUA !
You do not know jack about why we are trying so hard to establish a Tech union. You think it is just for the money? Yes that is a large part after all we all have to eat and pay our bills. Your Safety techs make $35 plus GSA pd. WHY SHOULD THE HP’S NOT MAKE THE SAME. We are as qualified; hell more qualified then safety techs.  I know two HP techs that are in safety (one works for you) they say that there safety job is 10 times easier with less responsibility.
Back to the NPUA!
We have worked for years to gain some respect from the utilities.  Thing are just starting to happen you will see. I am not at liberty to go in to all of our plans except to say the union is expanding every day.
To my fellow techs reading this post, JOIN US!
Go to NPUA.org read the by- laws, the news, call our number and ask questions, fill out an authorization card. It is all confidential no need to fear retaliation from the nuclear employers.  There are less than a thousand Hp techs working commercial plants. If half of us have the nerve and will to unionize then we can make it better for all techs.
I just read about another fallen tech. It saddens me to think that after 31 years in this business I do not have a company pension, affordable health care, or the respect of employers like Beer Court.
BTW Bartlett and Atlantic need us as much as we need them. ;D

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jun 24, 2010, 09:39
It's simple enough.  I care about my friends and former co-workers.  I want them to get a fair deal.  I'd be happy for them to get ahead and sad to see them get disappointed.

I said I'd tell you how, but I wouldn't DO IT FOR YOU.  Read a little more carefully next time.  And the answer is simple.  If you want twice the money you make now, you can convince me to hire you.  The lowest paid employee at our shop makes twice as much as a Sr. RP at the end of the week.  The highest paid ones ... well, I don't want to make it hurt too much so I won't go into that.  They work the same outage season that you do.  That does not include the GSA per diem that they all get.  With that said; it isn't as easy as you think.  Crying and whining won't get you there.  You have to earn the job.  You have to stand out as a sharp, motivated, intelligent worker. 

If all NPUA is trying to do is get the techs more money, you're all screwed.  That is not what a union is for.  If that is what you think it is for, you will be pretty mad later.

Don't give me the crap about laborers not having the responsibility.  RP's usually get paid for a 72 hour week during an outage.  With OT after 40 that comes out to 88 hours of straight pay every week.  36 hours in the break room plus 30+ hours of sitting at a control point or CCTV monitor telling war stories, leaves <6 hours a week to do any real work.  88 for 6 is pretty good.  That laborer is getting a lot more done with his time.  Does it make him more important than you?  Not necessarily, but somebody seems pretty willing to hire lots of 'em even at a higher rate than yours.  You figure it out.

No, they won't be calling me next year.  I'm aware of that.  I also won't be sitting by the phone waiting.


Okay, I have to throw a flag here for this unreal, outdated and insulting  statement. As the wife of a hard workig road tech I can tell you this... gone are the days of "deal em" breakrooms -heck many plants don't even have breakrooms anymore. My husband works hard, sometimes in the cold, the heat and the in between. I know of a lot of other techs that do the same.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 24, 2010, 10:27
Camella, I truly believe that Henry works hard.  But, the lack of a breakroom doesn't mean that everybody else is working as hard as he is.  I'm guessing that he isn't paying much attention to what everyone else is or is not doing.

Old Dude,  I do not think that NPUA or any union is doing it just for the money.  In fact, I am specifically cautioning anyone to avoid that expectation.  What they are doing is fulfilling the mandate of any union -- that is, to give the workforce a single voice that is stronger than the sum of the individual voices in negotiating FAIRNESS in pay, conditions, opportunity, and rights.  It also provides a central repository and administration of benefits and pension funds.
Stop comparing yourselves to laborers or to the techs who have gone on to something else.  Focus on what you do, and the value it provides to employers.  That is what you have to sell.
As for our Safety Specialists, if you think that they are less qualified than you are, or have less responsibility, then someone is giving you bad information.  What they do have is less stress over the unimportant stuff.  A former RP who has gone into safety can not be less qualified than the RP.  How can that be?  A person who is qualified for one job and then becomes qualified for another can't be less qualified than if he had stayed with just the first job.  Again, stop worrying about what everyone else is getting.  It won't help you.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jun 24, 2010, 02:06
Camella, I truly believe that Henry works hard.  But, the lack of a breakroom doesn't mean that everybody else is working as hard as he is.  I'm guessing that he isn't paying much attention to what everyone else is or is not doing.

Old Dude,  I do not think that NPUA or any union is doing it just for the money.  In fact, I am specifically cautioning anyone to avoid that expectation.  What they are doing is fulfilling the mandate of any union -- that is, to give the workforce a single voice that is stronger than the sum of the individual voices in negotiating FAIRNESS in pay, conditions, opportunity, and rights.  It also provides a central repository and administration of benefits and pension funds.
Stop comparing yourselves to laborers or to the techs who have gone on to something else.  Focus on what you do, and the value it provides to employers.  That is what you have to sell.
As for our Safety Specialists, if you think that they are less qualified than you are, or have less responsibility, then someone is giving you bad information.  What they do have is less stress over the unimportant stuff.  A former RP who has gone into safety can not be less qualified than the RP.  How can that be?  A person who is qualified for one job and then becomes qualified for another can't be less qualified than if he had stayed with just the first job.  Again, stop worrying about what everyone else is getting.  It won't help you.

You are correct, Henry is too busy to pay attention to what others are or are not doing...  :) I didn't mean to come off as as such a witch.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Old Dude on Jun 24, 2010, 04:59
To all ANSI 18.1 and 3.1 Techs.
You have gone to school, studied, taken tests,
You have worked hard long hours for many weeks, month, and years.
Sweating on the job. Training. Passing the NUF.
You have succeeded. You are an ANSI Tech.
You are mandated by the NRC /DOE to work at all nuclear facilities.
The commercial power plants need you. The DOE sites need you. The nuclear employers need you.
The union needs you.
Think about it!
Go to NPUA.org and sign the authorization cards.
Don't wait for the other guy to do it for you.
You have worked so hard for so long. The respect and financial compensation are within your grasp.
Go to NPUA.org and sign the authorization cards.
There is strength in numbers. We will speak with one voice.
At a minimum we will receive $35 an hour for ANSI 3.1 techs plus GSA pd.
I am so tired of utilities paying only $22 to $25 per hour for Senior Techs.
Laying off techs two weeks into a six week outage.  I could go on but you know the problems.
Go to NPUA.org and sign the authorization cards.
Join the brotherhood! ;D




Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: fueldryer on Jun 24, 2010, 07:05
It's simple enough.  I care about my friends and former co-workers.  I want them to get a fair deal.  I'd be happy for them to get ahead and sad to see them get disappointed.

I said I'd tell you how, but I wouldn't DO IT FOR YOU.  Read a little more carefully next time.  And the answer is simple.  If you want twice the money you make now, you can convince me to hire you.  The lowest paid employee at our shop makes twice as much as a Sr. RP at the end of the week.  The highest paid ones ... well, I don't want to make it hurt too much so I won't go into that.  They work the same outage season that you do.  That does not include the GSA per diem that they all get.  With that said; it isn't as easy as you think.  Crying and whining won't get you there.  You have to earn the job.  You have to stand out as a sharp, motivated, intelligent worker. 

If all NPUA is trying to do is get the techs more money, you're all screwed.  That is not what a union is for.  If that is what you think it is for, you will be pretty mad later.

Don't give me the crap about laborers not having the responsibility.  RP's usually get paid for a 72 hour week during an outage.  With OT after 40 that comes out to 88 hours of straight pay every week.  36 hours in the break room plus 30+ hours of sitting at a control point or CCTV monitor telling war stories, leaves <6 hours a week to do any real work.  88 for 6 is pretty good.  That laborer is getting a lot more done with his time.  Does it make him more important than you?  Not necessarily, but somebody seems pretty willing to hire lots of 'em even at a higher rate than yours.  You figure it out.

No, they won't be calling me next year.  I'm aware of that.  I also won't be sitting by the phone waiting.
BC hit the nail right on the head! Sometimes the truth seems to hurt alittle, doesn't it OldDude..
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 24, 2010, 08:43
To all ANSI 18.1 and 3.1 Techs.
You have gone to school, studied, taken tests,
You have worked hard long hours for many weeks, month, and years.
Sweating on the job. Training. Passing the NUF.
You have succeded. You are an ANSI Tech.
You are mandated by the NRC /DOE to work at all nuclear facilities.
The commercial power plants need you. The DOE sites need you. The nuclear employers need you.
The union needs you.
Think about it!
Go to NPUA.org and sign the authorization cards.
Don’t wait for the other guy to do it for you.
You have worked so hard for so long. The respect and financial compensation are within your grasp.
Go to NPUA.org and sign the authorization cards.
There is strenth in numbers. We will speak with one voice.
At a minimum we will receive $35 an hour for ANSI 3.1 techs plus GSA pd.
I am so tired of utilities paying only $22 to $25 per hour for Senior Techs.
Laying off techs two weeks into a six week outage.  I could go on but you know the problems.
Go to NPUA.org and sign the authorization cards.
Join the brotherhood!

NPUA Steward ;D




Man, you were so close.
Why do you promise what you CAN NOT deliver?
That is total bull$#!t about "at a minimum we will receive $35 an hour ..."

You will get what you bargain for when you and the employing companies reach a binding agreement.  The companies with most of the contracts have not bargained with you for a single minute.  What are you going to tell your members when they throw that statement back in your face?  How are you going to make good on that promise when you can't get them any higher than $30 and 100.
This is exactly why I have had so many problems with NPUA from the beginning.
You people do not know the first thing about being a union.  If you "succeed" you will at best get 30% of the work.  That is an optimistic estimate.  It is enough to make a difference, but you won't ever hold the industry hostage as you claim you will do.

ALL you will get if you are recognized is the right to bargain in good faith. 
You can not guarantee the outcome of those negotiations, yet you are doing just that in order to attract members.
For God's sake TELL THE TRUTH!!!
Yes, some small companies will bite early and sign the first thing you offer them.  Then Bartlett (with all the actual contracts) will negotiate a better deal and put them out of business.  If you are so naiive that you think Bartlett and Atlantic will be pushed aside by a tiny IT consulting "virtual" firm, there isn't much you won't believe in.

{Edited by Rennhack}Sun Dog, If that is such a good deal, why do you need the NPUA?  Can it be that is is ONE position with no relocation allowance, no training provided, no per diem, and no overtime?  Can it be that the $35.35 is really $32 plus a $3.35 kick to the H&W fund that you will probably never collect from?  Can it be that the $500 bonus (huge $$$$$ to be sure) is a clue that many people don't stick it out for 90 days?  ( I wonder why.)  Or is it that you don't have a Q clearance, HAZWOPER, and Core card that they expect you to show up with at anyone's expense other than their own?  Can it be that it will take you a whole year to make $65-70k -- which is about what you make now?
Yeah, maybe you and I ought to have a foot race to see who gets that job, cause it's just that goooood a deal.
Really.  Why would you come here and rally the techs around the idea that they are all underpaid, don't get vacation and benefits, yaddda, yadda, yadda ... then come right back at me with what a great deal there is available to them at a NON-NPUA JOB at Oak Ridge?.
Which is it?  Are you underpaid or satisfied?  Pick one and stick with it.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 24, 2010, 11:27
Being dressed in PC's, sitting at a CP, is not work.
Sitting in the Video Gallery, waiting for something to happen, is not work.
Hiding out in tool decon is not work.
Having a smoke on the roof is not work.
Escorting an LSA box that is reading 0.1mR/hr on contact down the driveway is not work.

Yeah, you have to do these things.  You get paid to do most of them.  But you'd have to be the biggest crybaby on the planet to count any of it as work (as in "work hard" or "overworked").

Lots of techs are sweating buckets in nasty places with no help and too many jobs to cover at once.
Lots more techs are pressing butt cheeks against a chair.

The irony is which group makes the most noise about their work load.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 25, 2010, 12:22
Okay, I took the badge off.

So, what part of your latest post actually refutes anything I have said?

Now, that I am not a staff member anymore ( which bore no reward other than that it restrained me from saying the following)

I am now free to return your professional and respectful comments to me.  As far as I can see, I'm dealing with the biggest bunch of greedy, lazy, "fat-headed, jackasses" in the energy industry.

From what I have seen over the past few years, the vast majority of contract HP's in the business are being carried on the backs of an ever-shrinking minority of hard-working, knowlegeable techs with a good work ethic.  They are the ones who are underpaid, overworked, and ill-used.  They are the least likely to complain that they have to pass an exam to work.  To them, it is a matter of professional pride that they are proven to be competent before they are allowed to perform the work which they know is important.  They sweat on company time and don't care who knows it.  They ar the kind of workers who would have their jobs whether the NRC/DOE mandated it or not.  They don't need a government agency to make them necessary.  They make themselves necessary by giving a day's work for a day's pay.
They are leaving the road rapidly to take house or long-term jobs.  Some are leaving HP altogether.  Those who are leaving, are leaving because they can, because they have more going for them than the fact that they have logged enough hours carrying a meter.  What do they get in return for all their hard work and professionalism?  From management they get the same pay rate as the shirkers, the retired-on-payroll, and the incompetent.  From their co-workers, they get no help, they get no respect, and when one of them lands a better position, they get "he/she must know the right person" instead of an acknowlegement that they deserved it.
They do not happen to be members of the current leadership of NPUA.

What we seem to have here is a group of lazy malcontents who have devised yet another way to get more to do less.

The people who need and deserve a union are the ones who don't want a damned thing to do with it because they don't want the lazy majority to control their futures.  They don't want to join because they don't want to be associated with the selfish demands and unreasonable expectations of the greedy underperformers.

Any one of them who wants to join a union, can just take a house job and join a real union anyway.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RADBASTARD on Jun 25, 2010, 02:56
Well Harry Potter I figured it out.I see that the 6 on 6 off must have been to stressful of a work load for you, so you went to the 1 on 11 off program with almost no dress out in the saftey dept. then you say hey bud put your saftey glass's on or i'll write you up!

I can't believe you slam you ex fellow hp's the way you did basically calling them lazy and they sit around doing nothing most of the time.

We have a hell of alot more responsibilty than a laborer get real.
We have tests,nuf,procedures,worrying about being tech A,somebody getting an uptake,
air samples,survey's,meters,losing the bulding,if the workers get crapped up it you ass who gets fired.
So knock of the self rightous crap.
You act like your YODA trying to teach a bunch of dumb luke sky walkers.
Well we arn't as stupid as you think.

As far as the NPUA it's trying to better what we already have.None of the road techs have a pension,affordable health care when they are off.You see our brothers and sisters dieing everyday in this field that have been on the road and have no beni's to fall back on later on in life from these companies.You say hey if you want beni's get a house job.There isn't alot of hiring going on out there now with obama screwed up economy so there are very few options right now for that.
PEACE OUT HARRY
It's simple enough.  I care about my friends and former co-workers.  I want them to get a fair deal.  I'd be happy for them to get ahead and sad to see them get disappointed.

I said I'd tell you how, but I wouldn't DO IT FOR YOU.  Read a little more carefully next time.  And the answer is simple.  If you want twice the money you make now, you can convince me to hire you.  The lowest paid employee at our shop makes twice as much as a Sr. RP at the end of the week.  The highest paid ones ... well, I don't want to make it hurt too much so I won't go into that.  They work the same outage season that you do.  That does not include the GSA per diem that they all get.  With that said; it isn't as easy as you think.  Crying and whining won't get you there.  You have to earn the job.  You have to stand out as a sharp, motivated, intelligent worker.  

If all NPUA is trying to do is get the techs more money, you're all screwed.  That is not what a union is for.  If that is what you think it is for, you will be pretty mad later.

Don't give me the crap about laborers not having the responsibility.  RP's usually get paid for a 72 hour week during an outage.  With OT after 40 that comes out to 88 hours of straight pay every week.  36 hours in the break room plus 30+ hours of sitting at a control point or CCTV monitor telling war stories, leaves <6 hours a week to do any real work.  88 for 6 is pretty good.  That laborer is getting a lot more done with his time.  Does it make him more important than you?  Not necessarily, but somebody seems pretty willing to hire lots of 'em even at a higher rate than yours.  You figure it out.

No, they won't be calling me next year.  I'm aware of that.  I also won't be sitting by the phone waiting.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Jun 25, 2010, 04:49
I guess someone has to say it.......... :D!

I must admit I'm not completely aware of the NPUA standard for acceptance as a member, but.....

Troy probably wouldn't be eligable for membership in the union!   :'(     (Safety Geek)

Camella probably wouldn't either!   :'(     (House Wife)

Maybe there's some sort of Honorary Membership?      :-X

Unions speak TO and FOR their membership and as rude as it sounds, I don't know of one that ISN'T a closed community!

As it's been stated many times on many threads, "Those who Can't, Bitch the Most"

I do have one question I wish Mike would clarify, "What Unions have Advertized on Nukeworker"?

My $0.02, RG!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retired nuke on Jun 25, 2010, 07:24
Okay, I took the badge off.

So, what part of your latest post actually refutes anything I have said?

Now, that I am not a staff member anymore ( which bore no reward other than that it restrained me from saying the following)

I am now free to return your professional and respectful comments to me.  As far as I can see, I'm dealing with the biggest bunch of greedy, lazy, "fat-headed, jackasses" in the energy industry.


Hmmmm, the hot tub seems a bit more splashy now.  ;)

I like it!

 8)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retired nuke on Jun 25, 2010, 07:32

We have a hell of alot more responsibilty than a laborer get real.
We have tests,nuf,procedures,worrying about being tech A,somebody getting an uptake,
air samples,survey's,meters,losing the bulding,if the workers get crapped up it you ass who gets fired.


Oooh, you have to take a test.... and follow procedures, etc...

Laborers have to follow the same procedures.
They are usually qualified (and tested) on many skills, with many responsibilities above an RP tech. Most are also able to run a forklift (one of OSHA's big injury causing devices), rig  equipment, and other things that if something goes wrong, people get physically injured or killed.

RPs really aren't responsible for the RP crap anymore. They follow procedures, and ALARA plans, but if they "lose the floor", nobody gets fired. They just work their 7th day cleaning it up. About the only injury an RP can cause is by their equipment being a trip hazard because RP techs won't even string the extension cords overhead....

Man up Romo - Troy is right, and you know it.

Peace out youself
John  

sorry for continuing the veer off topic, I'll try to refrain in the future... ;)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: JsonD13 on Jun 25, 2010, 09:21
I'm just wondering, if you go to a plant where you pay the house union dues, is NPUA going to charge you dues on top of that?

Jason
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 25, 2010, 10:46
Jason,
Crossing jurisdictions usually costs money.  But, I doubt that techs would have to pay the IBEW dues if they are members of NPUA.  At those sites, like Salem/Hope Creek, you have to be e member of the union to work there, but if you can get their union to recognize yours, you don't have to join theirs.

RadBastard,
What do you have to be insulted about?  I described two distinct groups of RP techs.  There are those pulling the wagon, and those riding in it.  Which group do you find yourself to be in?  If you feel insulted, it must be because you are sitting in the wagon.  For certain, if you are one of the ones pulling, you would be agreeing with me instead of objecting. I am amused at your limited understanding of my job though.  I have done your job.  I was doing it when you were taking Drivers' Ed.  I never found it difficult to grasp.  There were times when I found that getting the workers to follow the procedures was like herding house cats, but I still have that to deal with.  When you have as many years at my job as I have had in yours, you'll be able to talk to me about it.  For now, stick to what you know.

But you need to get the needle out of the groove that you keep playing over and over.  "The pay, the bennies, the per diem, the pay , the bennies, the per diem, the pay, the bennies, the per diem, the pay, the bennies, the per diem...."

Start singing this song, and the real techs will listen.
Security, professionalism, training, solidarity, qualification, Security, professionalism, training, solidarity, qualification Security, professionalism, training, solidarity, qualification Security, professionalism, training, solidarity, qualification ...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: JsonD13 on Jun 25, 2010, 10:53

But, I doubt that techs would have to pay the IBEW dues if they are members of NPUA.  At those sites, like Salem/Hope Creek, you have to be e member of the union to work there, but if you can get their union to recognize yours, you don't have to join theirs.

I would think that most sites that require techs to pay into the union (whether house or contractor) would tend not to recognize said union?

Jason
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jun 25, 2010, 12:35
I guess someone has to say it.......... :D!

I must admit I'm not completely aware of the NPUA standard for acceptance as a member, but.....

Troy probably wouldn't be eligable for membership in the union!   :'(     (Safety Geek)

Camella probably wouldn't either!   :'(     (House Wife)

Maybe there's some sort of Honorary Membership?      :-X

Unions speak TO and FOR their membership and as rude as it sounds, I don't know of one that ISN'T a closed community!

As it's been stated many times on many threads, "Those who Can't, Bitch the Most"

I do have one question I wish Mike would clarify, "What Unions have Advertized on Nukeworker"?

My $0.02, RG!


Is there some problem with being a housewife? It's a role I chose and a role I am proud of. If you had bothered to do a little research you would have discovered that I also hold a AD in Public Service and a BA in Psychology, so don’t attempt to portray me as the little woman who just sat at home, please… 
 
Besides, I HAVE worked in the nuclear industry and while it has been a long time ago, and I was but a junior  ;D, I did the job and I did it proudly and very well if I must say so myself.  I also have enough experience as the daughter, wife, sister, mother and spouse of nuclear techs that I believe anything the NPUA is offering is relevant to me. Please remember that I come from a nuclear family and while we might not be as famous as some to date we have combined in excess of 100 safe working years. 

Please remember, that a spouses' benefits are those of his/her dependants as well and in the case of accident or injury or even death; it will be the spouse or other dependant who will be dealing with either the lack of benefits or the resulting tangle of paperwork if there are any. It will also be the spouse and dependants who will (hopefully) rewarded with retirement (when that day comes).

To dismiss me (and by default other spouses) is insulting and insecure and goes back to what I have been saying the entire time... too many of you supporters are killing the NPUA with your negativity. Sad, really sad.


Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: fueldryer on Jun 25, 2010, 02:38

Where is this magical world where every week a tech gets 88-hours of pay for 6-hours of work?  Apparently two of you know where it is.

SunDog,
I'm not an RP, I move fuel for a living.I make damn good money and have some of the best bennies in the industry(which by the way,cost me nothing)And I don't/won't ever belong to another union.Been down that road before.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Marlin on Jun 25, 2010, 05:00
Thanx fschip, maybe some of the bickering will settle down (one can hope anyway).

+K
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Jun 25, 2010, 05:27
Being dressed in PC's, sitting at a CP, is not work.
Sitting in the Video Gallery, waiting for something to happen, is not work.
Hiding out in tool decon is not work.
Having a smoke on the roof is not work.
Escorting an LSA box that is reading 0.1mR/hr on contact down the driveway is not work.

Yeah, you have to do these things.  You get paid to do most of them.  But you'd have to be the biggest crybaby on the planet to count any of it as work (as in "work hard" or "overworked").

Lots of techs are sweating buckets in nasty places with no help and too many jobs to cover at once.
Lots more techs are pressing butt cheeks against a chair.

The irony is which group makes the most noise about their work load.

I think maybe someone should go and do an outage as a Sr. Tech to get a fresh perspective. Since I have been back (2006), I have noticed that it is much different to be a Sr. Tech on the road. The staffing has decreased significantly and sweating is a pretty common thing these days as an RP Tech. The items you mention as not being work, I agree with. Saying it in such a way that you point to the craft as a whole and not just the small percentage of lazy slugs that exist in every place of employment (and proffession) to some degree, is offensive and lacks insight. Not to mention that it is just plain incorrect to make an assumption that the RP group as a whole behaves in this manor, we don't. For over 20 years I have worked with mostly professional and conscientious RP technicians. I would categorize us as a professional group that cares about what they are doing and takes the responsibility seriously. There are of course a small percentage that simply suck wind, they are the exception in my opinion and should not have a bearing on judging the group as a whole. I hope you are not in a management position, I really can't see fair treatment with that kind of thinking.

Where I work, we all suck rubber and sweat. Most of us kind of like it and the ones that don't, never complain about it. We are professionals and our union sees to it that we are treated that way. The things you have described are people management problems, not RP technician problems.

Now what was this thread about anyway?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hamsamich on Jun 25, 2010, 09:52
I don't like sucking rubber.  But I do agree that the outages are going in that direction overall (more work).  Plants people don't really want to go to are usually the sites of harder working conditions.  The better plants (higher pay, better unemp states, friendly atmosphere, etc.), usually have enough people and you can still find 3 in and 3 out.  But on that 3 out there is usually something going on.  At Calvert we did do alot of sitting, but at Limerick there was mucho work.  I think the lower pay is driving people to find other work, either DOE or another job altogether.  It is tough going somewhere and being put in a responsible and conscientious job and being payed lower than most everyone else.  People can go on and on about not looking at other people's pay and just be happy with what you get, but honestly it is one of the ways we all gauge ourselves, say what you will.  That "just be happy" placebo only works to a point.  I could probably live and be happy on 15 bucks an hour.  I'd rather not.  But the part about people being paid market price is dead on.  If people will do it for 23 an hour, then that is what they will be paid.

The sticking point in my opinion is what kind of RP tech do these companies want?  I think there is a possibility they can get by with this run-of-the-mill RP tech who are populating the bulk of the less desirable plants.  You know the type; either they can't do it right, are scared, can't climb, take too many smears (inefficient) etc.  So a couple of strong techs anchor each area and they try to "get by" working the dogcrap out of the strong ones while the other techs run in place or hide.  So yes, while a majority of the techs are working hard, they may not be helping the cause proportionately.  I think if the pay continues to stay low you might have entire areas being run by these types of technicians.  The plant will have a harder time completing outages in a timely manner and a major mistake may eventually happen, or maybe not.  It seems some of the plants don't mind rolling the dice on this gamble.  We will see how it turns out.  I'm truly undecided on which way it will end up.

But aside from that, we are RP techs, not scaffold builders.  I'd rather go build a scaffold sometimes and not escort that 0.1 box.  But that is our job.  Saying that type of stuff isn't work is nonsense.  It is annoying having to do some of that silly crap....and it is work.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 25, 2010, 10:29
where to start:) several of the following answers are rather obvious to even the most uneducated laymen. npua elections are scheduled on a regular basis and are posted in advance to members on the npua website.since you know everything about unions you know that those positions are not appointed for life. succesful contracts have been posted there as well. the spectrum contract expired. personal funds will be paid back by the union when it can financially handle it. that would be union dues(rather obvious):) no, union financial records are not open to just anyone. no compensation for officers and board members at this time. a timetable based upon union financial viability is spelled out in the union bylaws as to when and if future compensation is to be paid. as for a board member being certified by the nrrpt 30 years ago with only 13 years of experience it probably never occured to you that perhaps he was in the business 30 years ago and was certified back then but left the business in 1992. he was just being honest on his resume. not trying to apply for the notre dame head coaching job. i guess the potential member wont have to worry about us getting his pension straight and it will be honest as well:) there you have it bc.....your response in well under a year. next time only ask questions THAT YOU CANNOT FIND ON YOUR OWN BY DOING A LITTLE READING ON THE NPUA WEBSITE. we really dont have the time or inclination to educate those that wont take the time to educate themselves:)

Yeah, 'cause that wasn't difficult to read at all.  How about writing it in sanskrit next time.
NRRPT does not "certify" anyone.  An RRPT knows that. 
You have an officer of your union who hasn't been in the nuke business for 18 years, but you and your proxies continually slap at me because I "don't have a dog in the hunt."
The Spectrum contract "expired" huh?  Gee I wonder why it wasn't renewed.
Won't open your books?  Why not?  What have you got to hide?  If you recall, I asked if they would be open tho the members.  I think you ought to reconsider that answer.
But, all that is trivia.  What I really want to ask is this:  Are you actually admitting that you are here, answering questions?  Is the "won't dignify that with a response" policy now officially over?  Or are you just going to pretend that you are not who I know you are?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: longbow55 on Jun 26, 2010, 01:29
This reply is from the Bret LaVinge statement. Couldn't agree with you more! Quotes from that particular person is what runs a lot of people away from this site, To be called things that he calls them and get away with it is amazing. I am one of the ones who has had posts removed before. They were not offensive to anyone and were actually in defense of someone.

Safety person, huh. Never see them after the first day. I spent 10-11 hours a day in containment and they spent 0. I guess all the work was going on at their desk. As for the money that's a bunch of hog wash. I've made their money before and it's nothing to get excited about. As an RP Tech my checks are 5k net every week during an outage.


Mr. Beercourt you spout a lot and try to intimidate people but the truth be told you are a blow hard. What you have to say about the NPUA makes not one bit of difference to me. You need to learn some manners and realize everybody counts, not just you. When you do that perhaps people will return to this site more often. As it stands now people have found alternative ways to stay in touch with the nuclear world other then here.
I realize this is off topic and I will refrain from any further digressions in the future if I visit here again.

Come to think of it, where do you get all of this free time to folllow the posts so closely if you work so hard? It would appear to me you have a lot of free time on your hands.








 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 26, 2010, 02:18

But, all that is trivia.  What I really want to ask is this:  Are you actually admitting that you are here, answering questions?  Is the "won't dignify that with a response" policy now officially over?  Or are you just going to pretend that you are not who I know you are?

cmon bc since you obviously know everything and you think im trying to hide who i am....just tell me who i am. anyone who really knows me should be able to answer that since i have had the same handle for all forms of communication for 15 years more or less. as for ending our so called official policy on no response i think its safe to say that if i only have 5 hours logged into this site since i joined years ago.......i dont waste a lot of time here. try reading the constitution and bylaws of the npua before wasting my time with questions that you can find out on your own. to paraphrase one of your earlier rants i'll tell you where to read it....im not going to read it to you.
 p.s. prospective members are not MEMBERS....go tell the ibew you are thinking about joining but you want to see their books first.....hmmm i wonder what they would say.
p.s.p.s. i guess you have no comment on the bartlett petition or the vote which will be a direct result of that petition here in the near future. that is probably too on topic and positive for you to comment on huh.

Go back a few pages and you'll see that I already gave you props for that move.  You don't get any more than that until you win the vote.

Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act.
Title II - Reporting Requirements

    * Unions must file information reports, constitutions and bylaws, and annual financial reports with OLMS.
    * Officers and employees of labor unions must report any loans and benefits received from, or certain financial interests in, employers whose employees their unions represent and businesses that deal with their unions.
    * Employers and labor-relations consultants who engage in certain activities to persuade employees about their union activities or to supply information to the employer must file reports.
    * Surety companies that issue bonds required by the LMRDA or the Employee Retirement Income Security Act must report data such as premiums received, total claims paid, and amounts recovered.
    * The Secretary of Labor has authority to enforce the reporting requirements of the LMRDA.
    * The reports and documents filed with OLMS are public information and any person may examine them or obtain copies at OLMS offices or via the OLMS Internet Public Disclosure Room at www.unionreports.dol.gov.
    * Filers must retain the records necessary to verify the reports for at least five years after the reports are filed.
    * Unions must make reports available to members and permit members to examine records for just cause.


According to the LMRDA I don't even have to be a prospective member to access those records.

Frank, I don't think that you are hiding your identity.  What I have a problem with is that you think people are stupid.  You can't come here and post under the name "fschip", sign your name "Frank" and then have your minions come here and deny outright that NPUA officers are posting here.  Apparently, there is some reason why you didn't want people to think that you were here, but whatever that reason is; you can't walk into a room and say "I'm not here."
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: JsonD13 on Jun 26, 2010, 03:38
I'm not perfectly sure how this works, but maybe someone could help.  The laborers and other trades are all unionized through the local unions.  The company makes up a contract with DZ or Bartlett or whoever, and they have to go to the union first to fill jobs.  Who gets the job is based upon the union's seniority list.  I am not sure how the pay and bennies work out, but if you are working under that union I would think that you are getting the same pay and bennies as the house guys (correct me if I am wrong).  The only thing that the laborers and trade workers have to do is make sure they are current on their dues and training so that they are eligible to be on the seniority list.


My question is this, if there is already a model for which this has been done, why try to reinvent the wheel on the way unions should interface with companies when it comes to contract workers?  I would think that as long as you are paying your dues to your union, you should be called up for the jobs you want and get the pay and bennies that the local union negotiates, yes?

I am not sure on the upsides and downsides of that model though, so if someone could help me understand why you would need an entirely separate entity to be the union when you are still paying the local union, that would be great.

I am not bashing anyone or saying that the NPUA is a bad idea, just trying to be educated.

Jason
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 26, 2010, 04:57
I'm not perfectly sure how this works, but maybe someone could help.  The laborers and other trades are all unionized through the local unions.  The company makes up a contract with DZ or Bartlett or whoever, and they have to go to the union first to fill jobs.  Who gets the job is based upon the union's seniority list.  I am not sure how the pay and bennies work out, but if you are working under that union I would think that you are getting the same pay and bennies as the house guys (correct me if I am wrong).  The only thing that the laborers and trade workers have to do is make sure they are current on their dues and training so that they are eligible to be on the seniority list.


My question is this, if there is already a model for which this has been done, why try to reinvent the wheel on the way unions should interface with companies when it comes to contract workers?  I would think that as long as you are paying your dues to your union, you should be called up for the jobs you want and get the pay and bennies that the local union negotiates, yes?

I am not sure on the upsides and downsides of that model though, so if someone could help me understand why you would need an entirely separate entity to be the union when you are still paying the local union, that would be great.

I am not bashing anyone or saying that the NPUA is a bad idea, just trying to be educated.

Jason

I don't think that NPUA is trying to do anything different from the regular union model.

A contract company hires people by calling the union Business Agent with their requirements.  The BA calls out workers based on their classification from the list of available members.  It is not done by seniority.  It is done by whose name comes to the top of the list next.  Theoretically, the person who has been out of work longest is called first.  When you get laid-off, your name goes to the bottom of the list.

The pay and benefits are negotiated with each employer.  They may be different from those of the house employees.  However, in a given locality, the contracts tend to be similar, if not identical, for all employers.  The union itself administers all benefits.  The employer simply pays the cost of those benefits to the union per the contract.  It is a little different from the house system, where the employer may provide some of the benefits directly.

The advantage of doing this is that the persons whom the NPUA are seeking to represent are not currently members of any union or they are working for several employers without any negotiated contract at different locations.  Some are members of another union, (IBEW for example) but only work under contract between that union and their employer at certain sites.  They are not dispatched to those jobs by the union, and their contract provides very few benefits if any.
For example, an RP working an outage at Hope Creek for Bartlett, would be a member of IBEW Local 96 (or is it 94?).  He isn't sent by a BA.  He isn't assigned based on any work list.  He is simply hired by Bartlett and pays dues to IBEW for the time he works there.  THe contract between IBEW and Bartlett does not contain any provisions for retirement, medical insurance, training, ... etc.  A month later, he may be working at Limerick for Bartlett, but not under any union contract.  It is very different from the arrangement that an Electrician would have with the IBEW.

There have been efforts to organize the RP/decon technicians into other unions, but they have not been successful on a nation-wide basis.  The NPUA is specifically oriented toward representing this small and unique niche of workers who don't really fit into the other unions because their trade is so specialized and the work doesn't really fit into the jurisdiction of many of the locals of other trades.  If a particular local of a trade union has one nuclear outage in its area every two years, it isn't suited to dispatch RP's at any other time - while a pipefitter can go from a nuke outage to a construction job to a coal-burner to a refinery all in the course of a few months.  RP's are not Pipefitters, or Carpenters, or Electricians.  For house employees, any trade, including RP's, can be members of whatever union represents the employees of that utility, it is very rare for a tradeperson who travels or works for contract companies to belong to any union other than the one that represents their trade.  The NPUA is currently the only union to represent the RP's as a trade.

Make sense?  I hope I didn't confuse you further.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: JsonD13 on Jun 26, 2010, 05:31
Naw you didnt confuse me further, I'm a pretty good reader.  ;)

So basically for the union plants out there, this could make things more difficult (and costly) by putting two unions under one roof (the house and the contractors unions) instead of just one.  I woud imagine that the tech would have to pay two dues, one to the local and one to the NPUA.  Also, the contract company would have to have two CBA's, one with the local (like they do now) and one with NPUA.

I dont think that will be too much of an issue though if NPUA gets rolling though.  My union dues are pretty low and I could handle paying double (not that I would want to ;)).

Jason
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 26, 2010, 05:58
Naw you didnt confuse me further, I'm a pretty good reader.  ;)

So basically for the union plants out there, this could make things more difficult (and costly) by putting two unions under one roof (the house and the contractors unions) instead of just one.  I woud imagine that the tech would have to pay two dues, one to the local and one to the NPUA.  Also, the contract company would have to have two CBA's, one with the local (like they do now) and one with NPUA.

I dont think that will be too much of an issue though if NPUA gets rolling though.  My union dues are pretty low and I could handle paying double (not that I would want to ;)).

Jason

I still don't think you get it.
House employees belong to whatever union they have chosen to represent them.
Contractor employees belong to the union that represents their trade.
A contractor's employees don't have to pay dues to the house's union.  They pay to their own.
If you belong to IBEW, and a contract company brings in people for the outage who belong to NPUA, you would be working under two different CBA's.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: JsonD13 on Jun 26, 2010, 06:00
Then why does my plant require contract employees to pay to our local union?  Does this go away if they become represented by a different union?

Jason
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 26, 2010, 06:06
It's a matter of jurisdiction.  If a member of your union from another local comes to work in your local, he may have to pay into the dues of your local.  There are reciprocity agreements among locals.  He can petition to have certain assessments returned to his local.
A member of another union who comes to work at your site doesn't have to pay dues into your union.  But, as Frank said, there may be some fees that the other union will pay in order to be recognized by the house union.  That is not normal, as long as both unions recognize each other, and there are clear delineations between what work can be done by whom.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HydroDave63 on Jun 26, 2010, 06:27
I don't agree that I am chasing people away from this site.  You're here, aren't you?  

The ones that have left didn't check in with you first.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 26, 2010, 07:29
Well, you did (at least me).

In the past you have told us that by striking deals with employers before striking deals with the employees the NPUA was going about organizing technicians ass backwards. Now, you tell us the NPUA is not trying to "do anything different from the regular union model."

I believe that you have also told us that the NPUA was not a real Union.  Correct me if I am wrong here, but haven't you previously described the NPUA as more an organization than a Union?  Now, you tell us that the "NPUA is currently the only union to represent the RP's as a trade." 

By declaring to everyone that the NPUA is a legitimate Union that is following the "regular union model" and the sole representative of the traveling RP Technician your ship has tacked.

Welcome aboard sailor.


I'm not on board yet.
We don't have the room, the time, or the energy to go over the whole timeline right now.  At first, the stuff they were doing really raised my suspicions.  They were either a scam masquerading as a union or a union that couldn't shoot straight.  I'm not convinced that they are expert marksmen at this point, but at least they are finally aiming in the direction of the correct target.
They way I see it, it is the NPUA ship that has tacked.  It was inevitable that they would figure out that the only way to organize a large enough portion of the techs is to go after the big players.  I grant you that it is a huge challenge, but it has to be done.
Striking the deal with Spectrum was ass backwards.  Spectrum didn't know what they were getting into.  When they learned what they would have to endure to staff an outage, they quickly disappeared.  I am not clairvoyant, but I saw it coming.  They had 59 people confirmed at Wolf Creek for some really well-paying jobs.  Only 14 showed up.  That was not NPUA's fault.  It was to be expected that the fickle techs would opt for the long term and go back to Bartlett and Atlantic rather than burn a bridge for one outage.  Spectrum didn't give any consideration to the need to have some work to follow that one hitter.  They weren't rooted in the business well enough to deal with 45 fish spitting out the hook.  They weren't totally to blame either.  The real blame rests with the people who were signing up for the glitter and gold but had no commitment to the union.
This is why I keep preaching to stop making it about the money.  If all you do is hawk big money, you're just going to get interest from people who will hear the cha-ching.  To stretch the fishing analogy a little further -- You can bait your hook with a tasty morsel, but you won't get a fish to want to get into the boat with you.
It's a simple reality.  If you get Bartlett or Atlantic you are in the game.  If you don't get either, you are on the bench.
NPUA is going after Bartlett.  I sincerely wish them the best of luck.
I don't know if Bartlett management would agree with me, but I feel that they would be better off if their techs were better off.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RADBASTARD on Jun 26, 2010, 10:51
Well oh wise HARRY POTTER,YODA i've been doing this 29 years as an hp how about you?
SO YOU THINK I GOT THE RIGHT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT IT?
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN DOING THIS?
 You think you've been doing this as long as me?
If you have it can't be much.
I was also house before so i've done both. I have had the titles of tech,supervisor,site cord,Worked overseas,and RSO so what.
As far as worrying about your fellow techs getting screwed,stop it like you really care all you have done is put it down from day one.The techs out there are big boys and girls and I even think a few even have brains so I really don't think they need you to have their backs
YOU ARE SO CONDESENDING IT ISN'T EVEN FUNNY.
You sound like that douche from BP calling everybody the little people
Yes bow before the ooohhh great one BEERCOURT I know so much more than you little people.
WHAT MAKES YOU SO GREAT AND ALL KNOWING ?
Jason,
Crossing jurisdictions usually costs money.  But, I doubt that techs would have to pay the IBEW dues if they are members of NPUA.  At those sites, like Salem/Hope Creek, you have to be e member of the union to work there, but if you can get their union to recognize yours, you don't have to join theirs.

RadBastard,
What do you have to be insulted about?  I described two distinct groups of RP techs.  There are those pulling the wagon, and those riding in it.  Which group do you find yourself to be in?  If you feel insulted, it must be because you are sitting in the wagon.  For certain, if you are one of the ones pulling, you would be agreeing with me instead of objecting. I am amused at your limited understanding of my job though.  I have done your job.  I was doing it when you were taking Drivers' Ed.  I never found it difficult to grasp.  There were times when I found that getting the workers to follow the procedures was like herding house cats, but I still have that to deal with.  When you have as many years at my job as I have had in yours, you'll be able to talk to me about it.  For now, stick to what you know.

But you need to get the needle out of the groove that you keep playing over and over.  "The pay, the bennies, the per diem, the pay , the bennies, the per diem, the pay, the bennies, the per diem, the pay, the bennies, the per diem...."

Start singing this song, and the real techs will listen.
Security, professionalism, training, solidarity, qualification, Security, professionalism, training, solidarity, qualification Security, professionalism, training, solidarity, qualification Security, professionalism, training, solidarity, qualification ...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 27, 2010, 11:56
Well oh wise HARRY POTTER,YODA i've been doing this 29 years as an hp how about you?
SO YOU THINK I GOT THE RIGHT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT IT?
HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN DOING THIS?
 You think you've been doing this as long as me?
If you have it can't be much.
I was also house before so i've done both. I have had the titles of tech,supervisor,site cord,Worked overseas,and RSO so what.
As far as worrying about your fellow techs getting screwed,stop it like you really care all you have done is put it down from day one.The techs out there are big boys and girls and I even think a few even have brains so I really don't think they need you to have their backs
YOU ARE SO CONDESENDING IT ISN'T EVEN FUNNY.
You sound like that douche from BP calling everybody the little people
Yes bow before the ooohhh great one BEERCOURT I know so much more than you little people.
WHAT MAKES YOU SO GREAT AND ALL KNOWING ?

Tom, Catch your breath. 
You have some big cojones to call me condescending.  Go back and look at your comments about my profession and tell me that wasn't meant to be insulting, condescending, and dismissive.  Your own words prove that you haven't got a clue about what I do.
You and I are the same age.  We started at the same age.  We have both been in this business exactly the same number of years.  We were both house techs and road techs.  We have worked together, and I have to say that you are one of the few RP's I could relieve without worrying that there was a "surprise" hidden somewhere.
But you haven't been an EHS specialist/manager for a single day.  So, you don't have anything to say about it.  We have both been RP's long enough to know what there is to know, but for you to talk like you know what I do now is like you're yelling at the quarterback through your television.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Marlin on Jun 27, 2010, 12:39
Neutral corners, count to ten, take a deep breath.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Jun 27, 2010, 03:05
My Dad can beat up your Dad!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HeatherB. on Jun 27, 2010, 04:12
 :-[  :'(  ::)  >:(  :(

I give up... I've been attempting to follow this thread (pathetic, really). And all I've really come to realize is that I am a mere peon. A plebe... a worker bee... a nothing. I've learned the basic regard of Safety guys & "old school" RP's towards the masses of hard working RP's is that of contempt. And to top it off, I'm only a mere Jr. HP ~~~ *GASP* ~~~ so I can only imagine the snarky comments that will illicit. I have such nerve... I know!

I've learned that the squeakiest wheel gets the grease (or the effort of many a reply, anyways). No real solutions offered by ANYONE... just a lot of defensive posturing & excuses. Bullying & intimidation isn't left in the schoolyard... it's alive & well on this board.

I don't care who's been doing this longest, who has the most experience, who works harder, who's married to whom & who's being paid by what advertiser. I come on this board looking for answers, guidance, suggestions & support. I found NONE of those here... great job everyone. This REDONKULOUS thread is (in a nutshell) what's going so terminally wrong with this industry. We all deserve respect, courtesy, integrity, high regard, civility, and compassion etc.etc. ESPECIALLY FROM EACH OTHER!!!

I have been debating on paying my $$$ and becoming a gold member for a few months, but looking on this board has become a futile effort.

WHAT WAS THE FREAKIN' POST ABOUT AGAIN??? Talk about an epic fail...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jun 27, 2010, 05:25
:-[  :'(  ::)  >:(  :(

I give up... I've been attempting to follow this thread (pathetic, really). And all I've really come to realize is that I am a mere peon. A plebe... a worker bee... a nothing. I've learned the basic regard of Safety guys & "old school" RP's towards the masses of hard working RP's is that of contempt. And to top it off, I'm only a mere Jr. HP ~~~ *GASP* ~~~ so I can only imagine the snarky comments that will illicit. I have such nerve... I know!

I've learned that the squeakiest wheel gets the grease (or the effort of many a reply, anyways). No real solutions offered by ANYONE... just a lot of defensive posturing & excuses. Bullying & intimidation isn't left in the schoolyard... it's alive & well on this board.

I don't care who's been doing this longest, who has the most experience, who works harder, who's married to whom & who's being paid by what advertiser. I come on this board looking for answers, guidance, suggestions & support. I found NONE of those here... great job everyone. This REDONKULOUS thread is (in a nutshell) what's going so terminally wrong with this industry. We all deserve respect, courtesy, integrity, high regard, civility, and compassion etc.etc. ESPECIALLY FROM EACH OTHER!!!

I have been debating on paying my $$$ and becoming a gold member for a few months, but looking on this board has become a futile effort.

WHAT WAS THE FREAKIN' POST ABOUT AGAIN??? Talk about an epic fail...

I disagree with MARSSIM, I think you hit the nail on the head.  I gave you karma, and I almost never do that.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jun 27, 2010, 05:44
It is about one of the only political debates you will find outside the GM poli-sci area of the site.  If you want to see real nasty stuff, go there.
Anything political is bound to arouse the passions of the posters.  The only reason this thread hasn't been moved into the GM area is because it directly affects all the people who might come here.
Maybe this thread won't help you, and it probably isn't the best one to be the deciding factor for buying a Gold Membership.  But, there are lots of others that might make it worth a little coinage to you.
The job postings on this site are the only job postings specifically aimed at people like you - an RP tech.  The other sites either glean postings off of thinhgamajob or other generic employment sites, or they are overwhelmed with postings for planners, engineers, NDE techs, QC/QA, etc.  You'll find those here too, but you won't have to scroll down 50 pages of them to find the one that is for you.
Whether the NPUA succeeds in organizing the road RP's or not, there will always be a lot of jobs posted for RP's outside the unionized ranks.  So, NukeWorker will be valuable to you or others in your situation for a long time to come.
So, please don't judge the thousands of pages of useful content based on on thread that is the most polarized and contentious of them all.

WHY are we arguing so heatedly?  Well, if you are a Jr. RP, you probably don't remember the several prior attempts to organize the RP trade.  They were worse than failures.  They actually set the field back years in advancement as far as pay, training, working conditions, opportunity, ...etc.
If you, like I, believe that a union is a good thing for the profession, you don't want to see this thing fail.  If you want nothing to do with any union of any kind, you still don't want to see this thing fail.  If it fails, you will lose either way.  So, I have wanted from the beginning for this effort to be done right or not at all.  A bungled or misguided effort will be a total disaster.  It is not a matter of being pro union or anti union for me.  If you are anti union, there will be plenty of work for you outside the NPUA.  If you are pro union, that option should be available to you.  Therefore, a successful attempt by any union to organize RP will "lift all boats" within the profession.  A failure will show the employers that you are powerless against them.
To be perfectly clear, I am not and have never been critical of the fact that NPUA is trying to organize the RP's.  I have been, and will be, critical of how they do it.
Frankly, I see them starting to do things better now than they have in the past. NO, I do NOT believe that those changes have anything at all to do with me.
If you don't like the tone of this discussion, I regret that, but it is nothing compared to what comes next.
Yeah, you're right about us old farts blowing a lot of hot air.  Please forgive us for that.  We just can't help it.  We're just too hard-headed and set in our ways.  Maybe a fresh voice like yours would help us keep it relevant.
So, let me ask:  What is YOUR postion on all this?  What do YOU want from a union - if anything?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Jun 27, 2010, 07:31
+Karma to HeatherB....... ;)

That was rather Inspirational........ ;D

Actually I believe you've missed the educational value of this threat........"How to tell the Players from the Sayers"!

It's actually quite easy........ ;)

Have a great one, RG!







Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jun 27, 2010, 08:27
+Karma to HeatherB....... ;)



Actually I believe you've missed the educational value of this threat........"

Freudian slip?

My only experience with the unions was at Shoreham years ago. We were forced to join. We did not have to, we just would not have a job there if we didnt. I believe we got a dollar an hr raise. We were a union in name only. We payed dues but could not strike or benefit the same as other union brothers.
It would be great to have an organization with bargaining power to represent my interests. I remember the jr, tech perdiem being less than sr. techs. I could not find the jr tech hotel rates or the jr tech food rates. Now I still am at the mercy of the company.Either take it or leave.
But organizing techs is like herding cats. There is allways someone willing to work for what ever is offered. And you cant blame someone for wanting to support their family. It will only happen when the plants cannot run because of a tech shortage.
And then there is the are they going to rip me off idea. Were do the dues go? Will we price ourselves out of work?. Perhaps this is an overly simplistic view. I would like to see it work,but will keep a close eye on it.  I have a basic mistrust of unions, but you can not count on the company to look out for you're best interest.
I like my unions like I like my government,small but powerfull and less intrusive. I dont want to feel like I work for the union,the union should work for me.
.I wish you folks would post in the safety section as much as you post here.MH
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: nuke_girl on Jun 27, 2010, 11:38
:-[  :'(  ::)  >:(  :(

I give up... I've been attempting to follow this thread (pathetic, really). And all I've really come to realize is that I am a mere peon. A plebe... a worker bee... a nothing. I've learned the basic regard of Safety guys & "old school" RP's towards the masses of hard working RP's is that of contempt. And to top it off, I'm only a mere Jr. HP ~~~ *GASP* ~~~ so I can only imagine the snarky comments that will illicit. I have such nerve... I know!

I've learned that the squeakiest wheel gets the grease (or the effort of many a reply, anyways). No real solutions offered by ANYONE... just a lot of defensive posturing & excuses. Bullying & intimidation isn't left in the schoolyard... it's alive & well on this board.

I don't care who's been doing this longest, who has the most experience, who works harder, who's married to whom & who's being paid by what advertiser. I come on this board looking for answers, guidance, suggestions & support. I found NONE of those here... great job everyone. This REDONKULOUS thread is (in a nutshell) what's going so terminally wrong with this industry. We all deserve respect, courtesy, integrity, high regard, civility, and compassion etc.etc. ESPECIALLY FROM EACH OTHER!!!

I have been debating on paying my $$$ and becoming a gold member for a few months, but looking on this board has become a futile effort.

WHAT WAS THE FREAKIN' POST ABOUT AGAIN??? Talk about an epic fail...
This was the best part of this thread...oh and when Brett said his Dad could beat up your dad lol
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smart People on Jun 27, 2010, 11:42
:-[  :'(  ::)  >:(  :(

I give up... I've been attempting to follow this thread (pathetic, really). And all I've really come to realize is that I am a mere peon. A plebe... a worker bee... a nothing. I've learned the basic regard of Safety guys & "old school" RP's towards the masses of hard working RP's is that of contempt. And to top it off, I'm only a mere Jr. HP ~~~ *GASP* ~~~ so I can only imagine the snarky comments that will illicit. I have such nerve... I know!

I've learned that the squeakiest wheel gets the grease (or the effort of many a reply, anyways). No real solutions offered by ANYONE... just a lot of defensive posturing & excuses. Bullying & intimidation isn't left in the schoolyard... it's alive & well on this board.

I don't care who's been doing this longest, who has the most experience, who works harder, who's married to whom & who's being paid by what advertiser. I come on this board looking for answers, guidance, suggestions & support. I found NONE of those here... great job everyone. This REDONKULOUS thread is (in a nutshell) what's going so terminally wrong with this industry. We all deserve respect, courtesy, integrity, high regard, civility, and compassion etc.etc. ESPECIALLY FROM EACH OTHER!!!

I have been debating on paying my $$$ and becoming a gold member for a few months, but looking on this board has become a futile effort.

WHAT WAS THE FREAKIN' POST ABOUT AGAIN??? Talk about an epic fail...

HeatherB, Don' let the cynicism of us old timers turn off your enthusiasm for the work.

This thread has become one of the most heated discussions i have ever seen on the forum, Poly-Sci included. Even some heavy hitters on the site seem to have found themselves crawling in the gutter. That should give you some indication of how touchy this subject is.

Being new probably means you have yet to see this conversation in the break room where chairs are nearly thrown. the union argument has been going on for decades.

Ask some real questions on this thread, hopefully you will get real answers, on both sides of the fence.

As far as gold member, I say do it. We love to have another voice in the discussion. just wear your flack jacket at all times and keep your hands inside the vehicle.

+karma by the way
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jun 28, 2010, 12:24
I am most familiar with the safety aspect so I’ll throw in my 2-cents on that.  This is just my opinion.

Unlike Senior RP Technicians, there is no ANSI standard for a safety rep.  Unlike Senior RP Technicians, the minimum number of safety reps on site is not dictated by the operating license.  Unlike a Senior RP Technician, the safety rep is not required to pass an entrance exam (excluding the MMPI and GET).

At a typical refueling outage, the primary outage contractor like DZ, Shaw/S&W, or Fluor will hire 2 or maybe 3 safety reps.  At the same outage there may be 75 Senior RP Technicians hired, in addition to the 20 or 30 house techs.   No wonder we don’t see safety in the plant as much as we would expect!  Now let’s say those 2 or 3 safety reps tell Mr. Site Manager “no way José, we want more!”    More money!  More per diem!  More travel pay!  More Security!  What would happen?  They would get the boot and the niece of Mr. Site Manager would step up and fill the void.  No questions asked.  You can’t pull that crap with an ANSI qualified Senior RP Technician or the myriad of other true professionals that cannot be so easily replaced as the friendly safety dude or dudette.

Good observation. K+
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Nuclear NASCAR on Jun 30, 2010, 10:35
Ok, hopefully I've made this back into a thread about the NPUA.  I'll delete this post once y'all get rolling again.  Sorry for the delay in the discussion.  (It was fun censoring the webmaster too!)  :P
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jun 30, 2010, 10:59
Okay, I have a question or two...

A. If the union is not open to anyone other than current/active RP's/HP's then how come one of the officers is no longer in the business?

B. If you can be retired and still join the union, then could lets say a housewife who "used" to work in the business as a Junior join? Or someone who spent 10, 15 years working but went on the something else join?

C. And why isn't this union open to other workers that support nuclear workers or work in a nuclear environment? (There was a list somewhere but it went to lala land).

D. Can someone in the know answer these questions?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 01, 2010, 12:17
Ok, hopefully I've made this back into a thread about the NPUA.  I'll delete this post once y'all get rolling again.  Sorry for the delay in the discussion.  (It was fun censoring the webmaster too!)  :P

Hey, where did all of our comments go?  Why didn't you split them off to another post?  What I had to say was important.  Stop censoring me.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Jul 01, 2010, 04:55
Okay, I have a question or two...

A. If the union is not open to anyone other than current/active RP's/HP's then how come one of the officers is no longer in the business?

B. If you can be retired and still join the union, then could lets say a housewife who "used" to work in the business as a Junior join? Or someone who spent 10, 15 years working but went on the something else join?

C. And why isn't this union open to other workers that support nuclear workers or work in a nuclear environment? (There was a list somewhere but it went to lala land).

D. Can someone in the know answer these questions?

You answered this question yourself, an “OFFICER”!  Officers represent the agenda of the group from a business perspective, not an in the field perspective.  Strange as it may seem, an officer may actually have to hang up their field career for a while to pursue the agenda of their elected position.  I’ve been a member of a couple of unions and the executive board members did not and we’re not allowed to actively engage in field duties during their terms.  That’s why officers are paid for their elected positions.  I don’t know the NPUA rules of election, but you may be eligible to run for office. You would probably have to be voted in by the ACTIVE membership.  You would be surprised at how many officers, of many unions, who are basically clueless as to what their members do!  Then again, you would also be surprised on how strong they are at the business aspects!  

Most unions maintain a standard for membership forever!  There is a difference between ACTIVE and INACTIVE membership.  Both will be on the books, but only active members will have voting rights.  I currently hold white cards in two unions, which means I am still on the books as a member, but have no rights to vote on any union issue.  Both of those unions have criteria to be considered active; pay the required dues and a working member of a shop under their union’s contract.  Both are Required!

That’s called AGENDA!  Have you asked that same question to the other unions who represent other crafts at nuclear facilities…Carpenters, Boiler Makers, Operators and the list goes on!  Why do each of those trade have a separate and unique union, instead of just one?

Now I have to spin the lazy susan 180 and pose a question.  If I walk up to you and informed you that I have not actively participated in your venue because I pursed another.  Then requested you to devulge everything you knew about that venue, what would your second question be?

I already know the first.....WHY?

Just an opinion and NOT that of the NPUA...

RG!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jul 01, 2010, 09:01
You answered this question yourself, an “OFFICER”!  Officers represent the agenda of the group from a business perspective, not an in the field perspective.  Strange as it may seem, an officer may actually have to hang up their field career for a while to pursue the agenda of their elected position.  I’ve been a member of a couple of unions and the executive board members did not and we’re not allowed to actively engage in field duties during their terms.  That’s why officers are paid for their elected positions.  I don’t know the NPUA rules of election, but you may be eligible to run for office. You would probably have to be voted in by the ACTIVE membership.  You would be surprised at how many officers, of many unions, who are basically clueless as to what their members do!  Then again, you would also be surprised on how strong they are at the business aspects!  

Most unions maintain a standard for membership forever!  There is a difference between ACTIVE and INACTIVE membership.  Both will be on the books, but only active members will have voting rights.  I currently hold white cards in two unions, which means I am still on the books as a member, but have no rights to vote on any union issue.  Both of those unions have criteria to be considered active; pay the required dues and a working member of a shop under their union’s contract.  Both are Required!

That’s called AGENDA!  Have you asked that same question to the other unions who represent other crafts at nuclear facilities…Carpenters, Boiler Makers, Operators and the list goes on!  Why do each of those trade have a separate and unique union, instead of just one?

Now I have to spin the lazy susan 180 and pose a question.  If I walk up to you and informed you that I have not actively participated in your venue because I pursed another.  Then requested you to devulge everything you knew about that venue, what would your second question be?

I already know the first.....WHY?

Just an opinion and NOT that of the NPUA...

RG!



Thank you for your answer, it was clear and informative until the last part of your reply; please tell me can you and others not answer a question without being sarcastic and demeaning? I don't know what your problem is with me, but I have every right to ask questions, as I've stated before I have an interest.

Tell me this, why in the world can you state this "You would be surprised at how many officers, of many unions, who are basically clueless as to what their members do!" and then question my attempt to understand the structure of the NPUA?

Anyone else care to answer my question minus the personal attack?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Nuclear NASCAR on Jul 01, 2010, 09:58
Hey, where did all of our comments go? 
They flew through cyberspace.

Why didn't you split them off to another post?  What I had to say was important.  Stop censoring me.

You mean like this place? 
http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,24610.0.html   ;)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Jul 01, 2010, 11:09
Okay, I have a question or two...


C. And why isn't this union open to other workers that support nuclear workers or work in a nuclear environment? (There was a list somewhere but it went to lala land).


I have read the Constitution of the NPUA and nowhere does it mention RP/HP. It actually states:


Section 1. This organization shall be composed of men and women employed in and around the nuclear energy sector and related industries and organizations, including entities that are the successors, subsidiaries, affiliates, mergers and acquisitions of employers whose employees are represented by the union, and any other place now under the jurisdiction of the National Union as well as officers, staff representatives or employees of the National Union. The union shall admit to membership all who apply and conform to the Constitution and Bylaws. Persons having supervisory power, excluding the right to hire and fire, shall be eligible for membership subject to the approval of the National Union.


So I am wondering why doesn't the NPUA try to organize other groups of Nuclear workers that don't have Collective Bargaining Agreements. I was really interested in joining this union but I haven't seen any reason to so far. The posts that I have seen here on Nukeworker alone would keep from joining. I understand from reading your website that I3 is bidding on all of the Fall outages. I would believe that most if not all Fall Outages already have contracts in place. Its getting a little bit close to outage season to be placing bids now( even though the news section was updated June 13).

Do you think it is possible to reach an agreement with Bartlett now for outages that they have already bid on and have contracts for a set amount of money. I don't think trying to Bankrupt a company is the right way to go about it. And I believe people trying to force Bartlett to the bargaining table when they are working on an existing contract is not the right thing to do. Maybe you should look at trying to get a CBA with Bartlett or whoever for upcoming contracts that haven't been bid on yet. This isn't something that is  going to happen overnight.

All of this is my opinion and mine alone. I remember the last time when the IBEW tried to organize RP's and they went about it the wrong way too. They failed and that is what will happen to the NPUA, if you aren't very careful. I myself would like to see the NPUA succeed in this endeavor,  but only if you go about it in the proper manner.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 01, 2010, 01:32
Do you think it is possible to reach an agreement with Bartlett now for outages that they have already bid on and have contracts for a set amount of money.

It is not possible.

Contracts area bid as such:

Billing Rate = Worker Pay Rate + Costs (Tax's & Insurance) + Overhead + Profit

These costs are fixed percentages.  The amount of money the employer has to pay in Federal & State taxes, FICA, unemployment insurance, and workers comp, are all fixed percentages (Different companies can negotiate different workers comp rates based on their safety record).  The only way to adjust overhead is to fire office employees, and I don’t think we want them to let the payroll lady or the recruiter go.  The only adjustable number is the desired profit, which typically is fixed at ~3% for successful companies.  You could add more profit to your proposal, but then you’ll lose the bid on the contract.  Below are some examples.

Billing Rate = Worker Pay Rate + Costs (Tax's & Insurance) + Overhead + Profit
Billing Rate = $22.50/hr Pay Rate + 22-36% Direct Costs + 6-12% Overhead + 3-6% Profit

Billing Rate = $22.5/hr Pay Rate + $8.10/hr Direct Costs + $1.35/hr Overhead + $0.68/hr Profit

Billing Rate = $32.63/hr

These are realistic numbers, I can't say that these are Bartlett's exact numbers, (probably a few % high, the actual billing rate is probably lower than that above) but they are realistic.

Conclusion:  I don't see how Bartlett could pay a Union $8-$10/hr more than they can bill on their current contract.

Bartlett doesn’t mind paying people more, if they can win the contract.  Because everything else (profit including) are percent multipliers.  When you get paid more, THEY get paid more.

If you get paid $10/hr, your employer has to pay taxes and insurance at ~36% = $3.60/hr, their overhead is ~6% $0.60/hr (again, just an example I don't know their specific numbers, but they are in the ball park) and their profit would be 3% or $0.30/hr, with a billing rate of $14.5/hr.

If you got paid $100 an hour, then Bartlett would make a profit of $3/hr on you instead of 30 cents.  The more you make, the more they make.  They LOVE paying you more.  That means THEY make more.

If they had to pay a Union $5/hr, and you $35 ($40/hr total), Bartlett wouldn't mind, because then their billing rate would be $58/hr, and $1.20/hr of that would be profit, which is better than the $0.68/per hour they are making on you now. (As long as they got the contract awarded... it's more likely that Atlantic would get the contract because they could bill at $33/hr instead of $58/hr.

I’ve posted these numbers before, and how these contracts really work.  People don’t want to believe the facts.  They want to think Bartlett makes $100/hr on them.  It just isn’t true.  If it was, I’d be in the tech rental business.  But at 67.5 cents an hour profit ($27/week on 40 hrs), it’s not worth the hassle.  I’d rather pick up cans along the road.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Jul 01, 2010, 03:00
I know how this all works and I also know that Bartlett can't pay more than the contract is bid for, without  driving themselves to Bankruptcy. I don't believe it is right for anyone that said they would work for a set amount to try to force any company into paying more by using a Union to bargain for them. If you said you would work for an amount then "Work for that amount until the contract ends or quit and go somewhere else". That is one thing you will never hear me complain about because if I said I would work for a set amount then I will until that contract or the job ends.
Thanks for reposting the info again Mike, but I was really just trying to get some of the posters here to think about what they were saying.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Jul 01, 2010, 04:32
Camella, 

I'll issue an apology, but that was not a personal attack.  All unions I've been affiliated with guards their business plans. 

Just like the contract companies....... ;)

RG
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 01, 2010, 07:00
Thanks for reposting the info again Mike, but I was really just trying to get some of the posters here to think about what they were saying.

Henry,

I wasn't really directing it at you, even thought I quoted you.  It was meant more as in informational post, as people in general thing that the companies make tons of money on us. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Chimera on Jul 03, 2010, 12:24
:-[  :'(  ::)  >:(  :(

I give up... I've been attempting to follow this thread (pathetic, really). And all I've really come to realize is that I am a mere peon. A plebe... a worker bee... a nothing. I've learned the basic regard of Safety guys & "old school" RP's towards the masses of hard working RP's is that of contempt. And to top it off, I'm only a mere Jr. HP ~~~ *GASP* ~~~ so I can only imagine the snarky comments that will illicit. I have such nerve... I know!

I've learned that the squeakiest wheel gets the grease (or the effort of many a reply, anyways). No real solutions offered by ANYONE... just a lot of defensive posturing & excuses. Bullying & intimidation isn't left in the schoolyard... it's alive & well on this board.

I don't care who's been doing this longest, who has the most experience, who works harder, who's married to whom & who's being paid by what advertiser. I come on this board looking for answers, guidance, suggestions & support. I found NONE of those here... great job everyone. This REDONKULOUS thread is (in a nutshell) what's going so terminally wrong with this industry. We all deserve respect, courtesy, integrity, high regard, civility, and compassion etc.etc. ESPECIALLY FROM EACH OTHER!!!

I have been debating on paying my $$$ and becoming a gold member for a few months, but looking on this board has become a futile effort.

WHAT WAS THE FREAKIN' POST ABOUT AGAIN??? Talk about an epic fail...

Okay, I'm going to throw my two-cents worth in on this one, too.

The squeakiest wheel gets the grease?  In my world, the squeakiest wheel oft times gets replaced.

I've been in this industry for over forty years.  You're a peon?  We all started there.  We were all peons at one time or another.  Union or non-union, you represent the future of our craft.  Without Juniors, there will be no Seniors in the future.  However, some of the "newer" seniors have forgotten from whence they came.  As a Tech, I always took a Junior with me whenever possible to help them learn our craft.  Now, as a Supervisor, I pair my Juniors with different Seniors so they can gain the experience they will need when they become Seniors themselves.

Frankly, some of my Juniors are more capable and knowledgeable than some of my Seniors.  Don't let the discussions in here or at work jaundice your opinions of all of us or of our craft.

This union versus non-union discussion has been going on for over thirty years amongst the roadies.  Some want a louder voice in their own futures and some just want more money.  Most have never had to bid on a contract and don't really know what all is entailed in that process.  Some have been in unions in the past and want that protection while others want nothing to do with the politics and in-fighting they saw.

I don't know the answers.  I only know what feels right to me based on over forty years of experience in this industry on all sides of the fence.  I have seen the positives and negatives of both sides of the discussion.

But one thing I do know for sure.  You Juniors are the upcoming heart-beat of our craft.  Don't let us old fogies turn you off to this profession.  Listen, learn, and come to your own conclusions.

Michael
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Jul 03, 2010, 12:41
Conclusion:  I don't see how Bartlett could pay a Union $8-$10/hr more than they can bill on their current contract.

Bartlett doesn’t mind paying people more, if they can win the contract.  Because everything else (profit including) are percent multipliers.  When you get paid more, THEY get paid more.



I don't know why this is so difficult to understand? It's NOT trying to cut into the Bartlett's or Atlantic's profit margin. It's getting the UTILITIES attention to bring the contract back onto the negotiating table. The higher wages and benefits will pass on to the utility. The tech companies will STILL make their 3-6% profit. It's the utilities that need to get off their billfolds.....not the billing company. I thought everyone understood this! The utilities have increased the wages in practically every other craft associated with their outages. Why not RPs & Deconners?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jul 03, 2010, 04:57
I'd just like to comment that I took "Frank's" advice and I emailed him; I recieved a quick, informative and might I had friendly reply within hours of emailing him... this was after he took the time to say he was at work and would get back to me afterwards.

He answered my questions without being demeaning or sarcastic. I have to say thankyou, thankyou, thankyou!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 03, 2010, 05:38
I don't know why this is so difficult to understand? It's NOT trying to cut into the Bartlett's or Atlantic's profit margin. It's getting the UTILITIES attention to bring the contract back onto the negotiating table. The higher wages and benefits will pass on to the utility. The tech companies will STILL make their 3-6% profit. It's the utilities that need to get off their billfolds.....not the billing company. I thought everyone understood this! The utilities have increased the wages in practically every other craft associated with their outages. Why not RPs & Deconners?

Amen +k
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Old Dude on Jul 04, 2010, 05:34
A union is only as strong as its members.
That said, the NPUA need people to join our ranks.
You do not have to be a paying member, but it would help.
Call us (832) 628-6782  or write  
NPUA
17424 W. Grand Parkway S. #176
Sugarland, Tx 77479-2564
We will be glad to answer your questions.
The best thing you can do now is go to NPUA.org and sign the authorization cards.
Most of our members are HP techs, but we are not exclusive,
We accept everyone who would like to join as long as you are in the nuclear field.
The process to be a union is this:
1.    30% of a company workforce signs an authorization card. (All names are kept secret)
2.    The information is sent to the National Labor Relations Board.
3.     The NLRB sends out ballots for the workers to vote for a union.
4.    If 50% plus 1 workers vote for the union than the company is notified.
5.    NPUA will begin contract negotiations.
6.   The union rank and file votes on ratification of the contract.
7.   You are now a union with collective bargaining.
Strength in numbers, go to NPUA.org and sign the authorization cards.
Let’s get started!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 04, 2010, 07:26
How bout folks that work at doe sites?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Jul 04, 2010, 08:16
Camella, That's Great News.... ;D

MR BIG...... ;)

VOGEL...... :'(

I hate to toss that one on this thread, but last seasons outage at VOGEL goes to point!

I've heard a lot of reasons for Vogels RP staffing problems last outage.  Primarily the way they treated their supplimental RP staff in prior years.  Although most people would displace that fact by assigning it as a rumors, I couldn't find any rumors to the contrary.  Over and above their 20th century wage package, they managed to toss out a $10.00/hr bonus, ($15.00 for overtime hours).  Imagine that, Southern Company increasing the overall compensation on the plantation by 43%..... :o

WOW, they found the addition funds for a fluke!  BUT, was it........... ::)

That situation didn't hurt the contract company, or cut into their profit margine.

Best rumor wins....RG!

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Jr8black3 on Jul 05, 2010, 07:59
No dog in this fight, I back away cause I can choose to do what I want to to do.

I will tell you this I've known Mike Renneck and his family for many years, he went from nothing to somthing..

He has a great site here that alot of folks enjoy, I don't think NPUA has a clue. Every person out there has a choice, NPUA will take that choice away, I like the ability to decide what I want to do, hey I might make the wrong decsion so be it it's me that pays for it.

Is a Union wrong prolly not. But I'm not ready for it..I'm sure they know more then me,, lol I've only managed to get by for 25 years..

Kevin

PS I do not like it Mike is taking crap for any of this,,Mike did a great thing with this site,, and NO i'm not kissing your ass..:)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Sun Dog on Jul 05, 2010, 09:30

We should not accept lower wages or assignments away from home without per diem just because it is a long-term job.


How could anyone expect to receive a per diem stipend during a job that is expected to last a decade?  Let me clue you in.  If you accept a job that is expected to last a decade you have become a local, and per diem is out of the equation.

JMNSHO
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Jul 06, 2010, 12:45
  We incur two sets of bills working away from home. Why is that we should accept lower wages than those incurring only one set of bills?
 

We are free to live in our car or rent a penthouse suite.  Employers care not, owe not.  This is America; Land of the Free and home of at-will employment.

Folks who think employers OWE travel pay, benefits, per diem, and high wages to short-term traveling high school graduates might try Detroit.  Lots of like-thinking union bros to hang with during usta-work hours.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jul 06, 2010, 10:28
How could anyone expect to receive a per diem stipend during a job that is expected to last a decade?  Let me clue you in.  If you accept a job that is expected to last a decade you have become a local, and per diem is out of the equation.

JMNSHO

True.  No per diem for a job that is expected to last more than a year.

BUT!!!  Asking people to relocate should come with some allowance for the cost of doing so.  Many of those who are of the management ranks on such a project will be paid generous relocation benefits both coming and going.
It is one thing to take a job away from home short term with reimbursement for travel expenses.  It is quite another to uproot your whole family and drag them to a strange place.  And to do that knowing that you are going to have to find another job in 7 to 10 years would require some consideration of the fact that such a move (done twice) will cost tens of thousands of dollars.
Very few lone wolves are going to get more than mileage to take this job.  A strong unified voice might change that.

MS, you are correct also.  The employer owes the employee nothing other than what he agreed to pay and the employee agreed to accept.  Now, having said that, there isn't a damned thing wrong with changing the parameters of what you will agree to accept.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Jul 06, 2010, 10:24
MS, you are correct also.  The employer owes the employee nothing other than what he agreed to pay and the employee agreed to accept.  Now, having said that, there isn't a damned thing wrong with changing the parameters of what you will agree to accept.

Well said, and true.  If unionists would just state it that way:  "We just want more, and believe we can squeeze you by banding together."

But they don't.  They refer to management as "oppressive," and fight for their "rights."  Spew vitriol.  Have seen union leadership get on TV., kill a merger, lie about the utility, vandalize property....open warfare.  Even these NPUA guys talk openly about being taken advantage of, Bartlett as the devil, etc.

Nothing wrong with demanding more.  Good luck.  My integrity just is not worth the price the way these guys play the game.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Old Dude on Jul 07, 2010, 08:21
Unionizing the nuclear field is not an easy task. Let’s give the NPUA a chance before some tear it apart with negative attitudes.
You have read Kevin’s post. He said a lot of positive things about the future.
WE NEED YOUR HELP
Sign the authorization cards.
Plant the seed and the tree will grow.
A union is only as good as its members.
In solidarity
 :D
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hamsamich on Jul 07, 2010, 10:23
I think CSI is trying to staff Turkey early with that 35 and 150 job.  those are the type wages NPUA was getting.  even if you dont go union maybe you could get more money???
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 07, 2010, 01:39
The basic idea of a union is good. They all start out with good intentions. Next thing you know your company is on the verge of bankruptcy because the union wants more and more power. Sounds familiar doesnt it?
Unions exist because of unscrupulous companies that take advantage of peoples desire and need to work. Good examples of the atmosphere that produced unions are the canaries ( cans not the birds ) of the northwest,textiles of the southeast, and migrant workers everywhere. The textile companies targeted children,women and blacks because they would work for less. Migrant workers have been treated as farm animals.
I don't believe a wage like 35/150 would put the utilities out of business. How long would it take a plant at full power to sale enough elec. to cover the cost of all the contract hps for the entire length of the outage. Probably not long. Please correct me if I am wrong.
If a union would help get techs a better wage fine. But when it the union gets to demanding and starts getting heavily involved with the work, no. I dont want to work for a union. I would not mind working for a company and being represented by a union.There is a difference.
I saw a coffee mug one time. It was in the shape of an elephant, and when you looked inside there was the shape of a donkey. Message ( mesage or message, Al could tell me) being there is a little democrat in every republican. And the opposite would be true.
I see the need for a union but I do not trust them.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hamsamich on Jul 07, 2010, 03:15
35/150.  pretty good.  what I was saying is if you don't go NPUA, at least go for a higher paying plant.  that speaks volumes as well.  some people might not bite at the 35/150 for other reasons.  I think most of us know what those are...some valid, some figments.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 07, 2010, 04:09
A case could be made that you would never see a 35/150 RP job if it wasn't for the efforts of the NPUA.  Ride their coat tails if you want, or get off the fence and support them so 35/150 becomes the norm, not the exception.

The same could be said of the internet and websites like NukeWorker.  Before NukeWorker went online everyone was making $14.50 & $50.  -- Due to increased communication via the internet (and a shortage of workforce), the rates have gone up.

The companies that are paying $35/hr are not paying it because of the NPUA; they are paying it because it’s the only way to get good techs.  There is a shortage of good techs out there.  You want the good techs, you pay for good techs.  It’s just that simple.

If you want to pay $22/hr for techs… you get what you pay for. i.e. Someone that CAN’T work where the rate is better, or someone that will jump ship at the first BETTER offer.

I believe we all agree that if a tech wants to make $35/hr, they can.  The jobs are out there.  Most all DOE sites are paying $32-35/hr.  The techs have to stop accepting $22/hr jobs and crying about it.  They have to take action.  That action might include the NPUA, it might not.  It might include learning to pass the CORE exam, and stepping outside your comfort zone.  God forbid we adults have to learn something new or challenge ourselves.

If you include the NPUA in your plans, then do it right, don’t just sign a card.  Follow all of their other guidance, not just the parts that are convenient for you.

This is the advice I give my friends, and it has made them a lot of money, it might work for you too:  All you need to do is decide what you are worth, and only accept jobs that pay that number.  Company A will call you and offer you the ‘going rate’ and you need to turn it down, even if it is at home, or at your favorite plant with your best friends.  Company B will call you too and offer you the going rate at a string of sites promising you a long and fruitful string of jobs.  Turn it down.  Tell them both that you want to work for them, and what you are willing to work for, and when they have a job that pays that rate, you are available.  You know what?  They will call.  Not later that day, or tomorrow, but they WILL call.  They have jobs at all pay rates.  They fill the low paying jobs with workers that have historically accepted low paying jobs.  They fill the higher paying jobs with workers that they can’t put in the lower paying jobs.  They need to fill all of the spots.

When staffing firms can’t fill the $22 jobs, but fill all of the $35 jobs, they go back to the client with their hat in their hand.  They tell the client that they CAN staff the job, just not at the rate they all agreed to.  The client doesn’t like this, and has the option of giving them more money to staff it at a higher rate or to let another company try to staff it at the same rate.  Typically, the staffing firm can staff it at the higher rate, and everything is good in the world.  Sometimes they can’t.  When the client decided to let another staffing firm try to staff it at the lower rate, the result is typically the bad, no one wants to go there.  The client eventually learns that they need to pay more.  The client hates paying more.  They hate it because they have to tell their superiors that they need more money. And that makes their superiors mad, because they in turn have to tell their superiors, etc.

At some point, someone says, “Just get it done, and make it happen”.  That’s when everyone makes more money except the client.

Now, if people accept the $22/hr job, none of this happens.  The client gets a bunch of crappy workers at the low rate, and just thinks that the industry is full of crappy workers.  No one makes more money.  The client isn’t going to pay more next time either, because they assume all of the workers are crappy, and are not worth more money.  It isn’t a staffing issue, because they staffed it.  It’s a general industry problem of low quality workers.

You have to only accept the job that pays what you feel is fair for your valuable time.  If you are worth $35/hr, then take any job that pays $35, and let the people that can’t get $35 accept the $22/hr jobs.  Some people work at the $22 jobs because it is near their house.   I love you, but if you accept those jobs, you are part of the problem.  NOT part of the solution.  It does matter.  Go ahead and take the job, and I’ll still love you.  But I don’t want you to ever complain about the wages anywhere, any time.  Because it’s the people that do what is convenient that make the wages stay low.  Only take the highest available job, all the time.  And you will be part of the solution.

Part 2 of the plan, is, of course, to make yourself worth more… so you can get more of those higher paying jobs.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RDTroja on Jul 07, 2010, 04:16
Very well stated. I have been saying the same thing for years but I think you said it better.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: stownsend on Jul 07, 2010, 04:58
When the mortgage company calls and says where's my $1500,I tell them I'll only pay $1000. Call me back when you'll accept $1000. The wife and kids say I'm hungry can we eat today? I say no you ate yesterday come back and see if we have food tommorrow.At some point I have to decide if I can live on Mike's love. I understand the intent but not all households have the same cash flow.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jul 07, 2010, 05:08
The same could be said of the internet and websites like NukeWorker.  Before NukeWorker went online everyone was making $14.50 & $50.  -- Due to increased communication via the internet (and a shortage of workforce), the rates have gone up.

The companies that are paying $35/hr are not paying it because of the NPUA; they are paying it because it’s the only way to get good techs.  There is a shortage of good techs out there.  You want the good techs, you pay for good techs.  It’s just that simple.

If you want to pay $22/hr for techs… you get what you pay for. i.e. Someone that CAN’T work where the rate is better, or someone that will jump ship at the first BETTER offer.

I believe we all agree that if a tech wants to make $35/hr, they can.  The jobs are out there.  Most all DOE sites are paying $32-35/hr.  The techs have to stop accepting $22/hr jobs and crying about it.  They have to take action.  That action might include the NPUA, it might not.  It might include learning to pass the CORE exam, and stepping outside your comfort zone.  God forbid we adults have to learn something new or challenge ourselves.

If you include the NPUA in your plans, then do it right, don’t just sign a card.  Follow all of their other guidance, not just the parts that are convenient for you.

This is the advice I give my friends, and it has made them a lot of money, it might work for you too:  All you need to do is decide what you are worth, and only accept jobs that pay that number.  Company A will call you and offer you the ‘going rate’ and you need to turn it down, even if it is at home, or at your favorite plant with your best friends.  Company B will call you too and offer you the going rate at a string of sites promising you a long and fruitful string of jobs.  Turn it down.   Tell them both that you want to work for them, and what you are willing to work for, and when they have a job that pays that rate, you are available.  You know what?  They will call.  Not later that day, or tomorrow, but they WILL call.  They have jobs at all pay rates.  They fill the low paying jobs with workers that have historically accepted low paying jobs.  They fill the higher paying jobs with workers that they can’t put in the lower paying jobs.  They need to fill all of the spots.

When staffing firms can’t fill the $22 jobs, but fill all of the $35 jobs, they go back to the client with their hat in their hand.  They tell the client that they CAN staff the job, just not at the rate they all agreed to.  The client doesn’t like this, and has the option of giving them more money to staff it at a higher rate or to let another company try to staff it at the same rate.  Typically, the staffing firm can staff it at the higher rate, and everything is good in the world.  Sometimes they can’t.  When the client decided to let another staffing firm try to staff it at the lower rate, the result is typically the bad, no one wants to go there.  The client eventually learns that they need to pay more.  The client hates paying more.  They hate it because they have to tell their superiors that they need more money. And that makes their superiors mad, because they in turn have to tell their superiors, etc.

At some point, someone says, “Just get it done, and make it happen”.  That’s when everyone makes more money except the client.

Now, if people accept the $22/hr job, none of this happens.  The client gets a bunch of crappy workers at the low rate, and just thinks that the industry is full of crappy workers.  No one makes more money.  The client isn’t going to pay more next time either, because they assume all of the workers are crappy, and are not worth more money.  It isn’t a staffing issue, because they staffed it.  It’s a general industry problem of low quality workers.

You have to only accept the job that pays what you feel is fair for your valuable time.  If you are worth $35/hr, then take any job that pays $35, and let the people that can’t get $35 accept the $22/hr jobs.  Some people work at the $22 jobs because it is near their house.   I love you, but if you accept those jobs, you are part of the problem.  NOT part of the solution.  It does matter.  Go ahead and take the job, and I’ll still love you.  But I don’t want you to ever complain about the wages anywhere, any time.  Because it’s the people that do what is convenient that make the wages stay low.  Only take the highest available job, all the time.  And you will be part of the solution.

Part 2 of the plan, is, of course, to make yourself worth more… so you can get more of those higher paying jobs.

Mike, I could not disagree with you more... I don't mean to be rude but to be blunt... get real! Do you honestly believe the things you wrote here? What I believe YOU and others have not come to realize is this... sometimes it's just NOT about the money. How long have you been on the road? And how long have you been married? Just wait until you have to make a decision to either stay close to home and experience your children growing up and taking that $35 job and seeing them every few months, missing not only ball games, recitals and birthdays but memories that can never be replaced.

Thankfully our family traveled together for the first 8 years Henry did... then the business changed and we came home and he traveled... at one time we spent 9 months apart only seeing each other 2 days in that time period and although we and our marriage survived, it did hurt our children and us... we then came to a decision later in life and that is we'd take less money to be closer to home. This decision by us and by others does not make any of us "crappy workers" or unable to find work at a decent rate. To say this is degrading to the people who support this site and who have worked their asses off to make way for you and others.

Now, I and I am sure Henry would love to make more money, better yet we'd like to have better bennies but we learned our lesson as so many more have... while money makes the world go round it does not always make for a happy tech or tech family.



Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Jul 07, 2010, 05:09
When the mortgage company calls and says where's my $1500,I tell them I'll only pay $1000. Call me back when you'll except $1000. The wife and kids say I'm hungry can we eat today? I say no you ate yesterday come back and see if we have food tommorrow.At some point I have to decide if I can live on Mike's love. I understand the intent but not all households have the same cash flow.

Amen!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: nukewood on Jul 07, 2010, 06:29
Camella, I agree with you,in part, and with Mike,in part. There are many qualified commercial techs working for $25/hr who are intimidated by taking the CORE test ,which would enable them to make $35/hr or more. But there are also techs,like me, who are working away from home at a DOE site for good money but realizing that I can't walk slow enough nor put up with the petty BS that one has to put up with in a strong union " entitlement " environment. I survive by dwelling on the positive, the best I can , and driving home 300 miles as often as I can.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jul 07, 2010, 07:05
When the mortgage company calls and says where's my $1500,I tell them I'll only pay $1000. Call me back when you'll except $1000. The wife and kids say I'm hungry can we eat today? I say no you ate yesterday come back and see if we have food tommorrow.At some point I have to decide if I can live on Mike's love. I understand the intent but not all households have the same cash flow.

You have a good point also. But what if you didn't NEED to accept any offer that comes along?  It is a paradox that those who can afford the least pay the most.  People who can afford to pay cash get 0% loans, while those who can't afford to pay get to borrow at 29% and up.  The same principle is true for the job market.  The more you NEED the money, the less money they have to pay to get you.
The power in any relationship rests with the one who needs it least.
If you can afford to pass on the low paying jobs, you will get the higher paying ones.  Still a paradox.  
I was more like you.  I took the going rate because I needed to keep afloat.  The going rate kept me floating in a very shallow pool.  So, I found myself in a situation where there were two employers calling me.  One was dead certain to call and keep me working for $20-24 an hour with "adequate" per diem.  The other was less certain to call, but offered a far better wage and GSA per diem.  The second guy would tell me that I should work for the first if I really needed the work.  I always told him that I'd rather wait than commit to a $24 job.  It made my wife a little nervous every August when I still had no outage lined up and was turning down Employer #1.  But I knew that Employer #2 would probably call, and if he didn't the other guys would be calling again anyway.  She isn't nervous anymore, and the mortgage isn't deciding my future for me anymore.

Here's a little advice.  Take it or leave it.  Organize your finances so that you can live on less than you make.  Get a little more self confidence. You really are worth more than $22/hr.



Choice=competition.  Competition is good for the marketplace.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Jul 07, 2010, 08:28
I just have to say something here. First, I work where I like to work even though it may not be the highest paying job out there.  There is more to life than money. One thing you will never hear me say is that I don't make enough. I took the job at what ever rate they were paying and I will never complain about the pay. I Love my family more than anything else so I work close to home to be near them and I go home every weekend. I could be at SRS or any other DOE site making 35 or more but I just prefer Commercial Power over DOE. I have worked at both and I can pass the Core Test and the NUF. The way I see it everyone has to decide what is best for them.

 I was a UNion member when I worked in the grocery business before I became an HP in 1981. They treated me good at Big Star Foods and I sincerely believe it was because of Retail Clerks International. I worked there before we were unionized and after. WE signed cards and the NLRB was petitioned and they(the Union) bargained for us. It meant more money and better benefits and didn't cost that much really. I believe we paid about 1.25 per week union dues. ( Could be wrong me memory isnt as good as it used to be). Anyway the people that represented us in our endeavor to become union members were open, answered any questions that we had, and if they didn't know the answer they simply said so. They didn't promise us things that they weren't sure they could get. In reality they didn't promise us anything, because they didn't know what would come from the collective bargaining agreement. However they did get us a lot, like more money and better working conditions.  I was for the union in 1990 and I will back a union now but not until    the folks that do the talking for NPUA, on here or wherever stop promising that they can get a certain amount of pay, and say that they want to try to get that amount. All they can really do at this time is talk about what they hope to achieve. Once they get to the bargaining table then we will all find out together just how much money and benefits the NPUA can get for their members. Just don't forget that contracts are bid in advance, and most of the fall and some spring outage contracts are already bid on and won. I doubt that I3 and the NPUA have the back-up contracts at most of these so they may not be able to put everyone that holds out to work making the big bucks. I hope they can but I will have to see it to believe it. Remember that it isn't good to bite the hand that feeds you because if all this falls through then you may have to go back to work for a company that may not pay what you think you are worth. So I say, get it together and stop making promises that you may not be able to keep. Tell folks what you want to do but don't promise something that you may not be able to deliver. Doing so will only make it all fall through again just like 1990, which will only make it worse for the ones that are left on the road.  Ok I am going to get off my soapbox now. "A Minute to Win It" is on and I want to watch it.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Jul 07, 2010, 09:40
 I was for the union in 1990 and I will back a union now but not until    the folks that do the talking for NPUA, on here or wherever begin to tell the truth about what they can do for members. All they can really do at this time is make idle promises. So I say, get it together and stop making promises that you may not be able to keep. Tell folks the truth about what you can do, or what you want to do but don't promise something that you may not be able to deliver.

I personally know people that have worked NPUA supported outages and were paid far better than the other non-NPUA outages. They have accomplished something, a start.

That being said, I think to say that they are making idle promisses that may not be able to be kept is an uninformed statement. Getting people interested by talking about what could be available is different than making promisses. And the figures they talk about are not "Pie in the sky" figures. They are based on what they perceive as the market value of a traveling nuke worker. I am sure that "represented" workers salaries were taken into account, so my point is that they are not pulling it out of thin air and then making a promise to any of us. They have a goal package in mind and they are striving to achieve it. Letting you know what that goal is, is not promissing that they are going to get it for you.

I would also like to see the accusation of lying qualified. I have not known the NPUA to do anything but give me truthfull information. So if you have an example of something different, you should share it with us.

I'm not trying to start anything here Henry. Some of your post felt misguided. Since the NPUA has so many harsh critics on here, I feel compelled to at least have statements like these qualified so the rest know what they are based on. Statements like these will stick with people and help form their opinions on the NPUA. Most people only need the opinion of another to form their own without ever looking into it themselves.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Jul 07, 2010, 10:49
I personally know people that have worked NPUA supported outages and were paid far better than the other non-NPUA outages. They have accomplished something, a start.

That being said, I think to say that they are making idle promisses that may not be able to be kept is an uninformed statement. Getting people interested by talking about what could be available is different than making promisses. And the figures they talk about are not "Pie in the sky" figures. They are based on what they perceive as the market value of a traveling nuke worker. I am sure that "represented" workers salaries were taken into account, so my point is that they are not pulling it out of thin air and then making a promise to any of us. They have a goal package in mind and they are striving to achieve it. Letting you know what that goal is, is not promissing that they are going to get it for you.

I would also like to see the accusation of lying qualified. I have not known the NPUA to do anything but give me truthfull information. So if you have an example of something different, you should share it with us.

I'm not trying to start anything here Henry. Some of your post felt misguided. Since the NPUA has so many harsh critics on here, I feel compelled to at least have statements like these qualified so the rest know what they are based on. Statements like these will stick with people and help form their opinions on the NPUA. Most people only need the opinion of another to form their own without ever looking into it themselves.

Very well said, Brett! Henry, don't get mad or take it personally, but you make accusations without any facts or real knowledge of the truth. Please research the FACTS before you start throwing your opinions out there. Just something I noticed. Again, don't get offended. We ALL want to make our lives better, whether it's near home or far away on the road.
Good Luck everybody I wish us the best.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Jul 08, 2010, 04:59
ROFLMAO,

Those Bastards....They wiped out my posting....... :'(

RG!

PS:  EB should not have moderator privileges..... :D
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Jul 08, 2010, 06:25
Okay I edited my post and took the word "truth" out of it. I was saying what I percieved as the truth after reading all of the post here and on the NPUA website.  
Very well said, Brett! Henry, don't get mad or take it personally, but you make accusations without any facts or real knowledge of the truth. Please research the FACTS before you start throwing your opinions out there. Just something I noticed. Again, don't get offended. We ALL want to make our lives better, whether it's near home or far away on the road.
Good Luck everybody I wish us the best.
Mr. Big I don't know who you are because you hide behind a screen name, but evidently you don't know me because, if you did then you would know that I don't get mad. Also I don't let something said in a chat room offend me either. You have your opinion and so do I, its just that everyone that reads mine really knows who said it. I say "Good Luck to you all" too, because what you fail at will eventually affect my life too.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hamsamich on Jul 08, 2010, 08:48
I don't feel like the NPUA is promising anything that isn't a glaring type of issue.  I think what they are saying is, if we can get together the pay will go up to something that house techs, some outages, and DOE already pays.  To me that isn't an idle promise given the conditions here in 2010.  If things work out and enough people support the NPUA, the money will be there.  It is sorta like saying I'll be out to visit you if I can get the money for a plane ticket.  Well, there is a possibility I won't get that money, but I hope nobody calles me a liar if it makes sense.  Someone correct me if I am wrong.  The state of the industry right now seems ripe for a substantial pay rise if we stick together and make some attempt to work jobs that pay more money/support the NPUA.  I understand why some people will take less money, and that is ok, I've done that too, albeit with a really rotten taste in my mouth. And I understand why some people choose not to support the NPUA/higher pay due to their own wants and needs.  That isn't my choice normally.  But don't let reality upset you; the fact is if we did band together (enough of us), pay would go up.  I think that is all the NPUA is really saying, and I believe that to be close to a 100% fact.  Doing it the right way and getting enough people together are the 2 major hurdles.  I'll do what I can when I can when conditions are favorable.

I'm not sure the NPUA is the perfect vehicle to get us where we want to be, but I do believe it can get us there if we can get the bus full enough.  That is the only part that isn't a given.  No moral finger pointing here at all, just a very probable outcome.

People get very opinionated to the point of cutting off nose to spite face.  Take the last 10 years of politics.  If you asked most Americans whether or not they want our country to fail in a general sense, you would get a resounding "NO!" hopefully.  But ask many a hard righty or lefty on whether they'ed like to see Bush or Obama fail, and some of them will actually admit they would like that very much.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: stownsend on Jul 08, 2010, 09:47
I personally know people that have worked NPUA supported outages and were paid far better than the other non-NPUA outages. They have accomplished something, a start.

I hope I haven't stepped on any toes for stating my opinion about accepting jobs.I've been around well over thirty years have no problem passing tests.NRRPT/DOE/NUF.I agree with NPUA and have stated I will support them. I don't consider myself a crappy tech but if I need to work I make a choice of whats out there.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Old Dude on Jul 08, 2010, 01:39
To all Bartlett Technicians
A Bartlett tech is anyone who has worked for Bartlett in the last three years.
Please go to NPUA and sign an authorization card even if you have signed one in the past.
Once we (NPUA) receive 400 signed cards we will petition the NLRB for a union vote of Bartlett Inc.
The sooner we receive the cards the sooner we can become a union.

BTW $35/hr and conus pd is not a promise, however all of the last five NPUA contracts paid this amount.

As has been stated we negotiate a contract and the members vote on ratification. ;D
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 08, 2010, 03:59
Here is a link to the Authorization Card on their site, so you don't have to spend all day looking for it:

http://www.npua.org/upload/userfiles/file/Authorization_Card.pdf
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Old Dude on Jul 08, 2010, 06:02
Thanks Mike ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Jul 09, 2010, 11:59
From what I’ve read over the past few weeks on this thread has truly amazed me. For those who are trying to start a union. Save it. Since I’ve been in the business (1979), it has been tried and has failed on many a front. As HPs why hook your team up to a wagon that goes around in circles? Why get on board a sinking ship? You guys are way too selfish to ever support a union. Besides, does the good group of HPs who deserve the $35 an hour drag along those less deserving? Imagine the talk at the break table when a “union” brother is at the control point while the other “union” brother is sweating his balls off in the can. There are a thousand other examples of why it won’t work but I will spare you all.
Instead, think about it from a business sense. Obviously, demand drives supply so there is the first thing you need to think about. Do you think for one minute the Utilities are sitting back thinking “well, I guess we have to pay them more $$ cause their union”. Hell no. Utilities have been in cahoots for years. It’s in their best interest to stifle all unions. Putting the “union label” on the HP group only makes you knuckleheads a bigger threat to their profits. The death knell to HPs as you know them today would be going union. Why get into a club where it’s been in steady decline for the last twenty years. Hello! Unions are on the way out. Bought a car lately? Worked at an outage with union workers? How hard is it to get things done?
Your union organizer needs to change things from starting up a union to starting up a corporation which represents HPs. Each HP can join and have their record of employment be their market value. Why drag down the value of good HPs with bad ones. Have those $20 something an hour pukes take those lower paying jobs. Faster, organized outages are done better with professionals. That’s how you market  HPs. That’s how you sell the value of the service. You want work all of the time? Do a good job. Create a worth for your services. Be a marketable entity. Slap a union sticker on your product and see how far that takes you.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Marlin on Jul 09, 2010, 01:26
From what I’ve read over the past few weeks on this thread has truly amazed me. For those who are trying to start a union. Save it. Since I’ve been in the business (1979), it has been tried and has failed on many a front.

I won't disagree with you entirely, but, there was a pay jump during each attempt to organize whether it was OCAW or IBEW. At least the threat of a union made a difference.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 09, 2010, 02:27
Strength in numbers. Unions can and do work. Its only when they get to controlling and drag the work down that they become a liability for a company or employer. A union with the purpose of increasing wages by controlling supply of techs will work if enough people get involved and stick with it. But you cannot expect someone to let their family suffer. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to protect yourself or family. Sometimes this means taking a job you would prefer not to take. And yes you will have to drag everyone along. There will allways be those that work and those that don't. Some slugs will benefit from your work. Thats just how it is. Its worth it.
If you can drive up wages without pricing yourself out of work , a fair wage for fair labor, we would all benefit.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: t_tarbox on Jul 09, 2010, 03:29
When you hire union, you expect certain things; for example:

I need to move a RVCH in a shipping container; I'm probably going to hire (or my contracted rigging and handling company is going to hire..) union ironworkers, perhaps a union crane operator and teamster, depending on the job..I realize my subcontractor is going to pay more for the union support..so I'm going to pay more..why would I do that, when I could hire some non-union trade people and pay less..?

The answer is obvious..skill and quality of work; when I pay for union skills, I know I'm paying for people that can do the job safely and properly. I am not paying more just because a group of people have banded together just to create a higher wage.

The trade unions have apprenticeship programs, skills testing and qualification programs.

A union of RP techs will need to be able to offer something more than "supply and demand" to justify an increase in the cost of the support. There will need to be a proven basis of knowledge and job skills through a qualification and training program.

NRRPT is a good example. As I understand it, an RP Tech that is registered with the NRRPT will command a higher wage than an unregistered tech. Why? It is not supply and demand..it is the fact that the customers is willing to pay more for a verified knowledge and skill set.

IMHO, every union RP tech should either be NRRPT, or be entered into a formal apprenticeship program (regardless of time and experience) that leads to being a registered tech. Now you've got something I'd consider paying an extra 20-30% (or whatever the difference turns out to be) cost for the support.

If I come to you and pay a higher cost over supply and demand, I'm going away as soon as there is a shift in the marketplace. If I come to you and and pay a higher cost for proven knowledge and skills, I'll come back, regardless of the marketplace.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 10, 2010, 10:36
I wonder how the failure/repair rate compares between cars made in union plants vs nonunion plants. All techs here must take the exams wether NRRPT or not. This is because some NRRPT certified techs have failed the exams. And this is not because the exams are so hard. Certs and training are not definitive indicators of performance. But this is about unions not performance vs certs.
I can agree that if union members can consistently and noticeably perform better this would benefit a company, but their are a lot of quality nonunion techs to select from allready. So there must be some other impetuous for a company to hire union.The only reason manufacturers move to the south is a cheaper nonunion work force. Not that unions dont exist here, they do, but are not as prevalent as in other parts of the country. They move because they have a choice. And I imagine the price of building a car factory is pretty high, so the savings by getting out from under a union must be worth it.
So the union must represent a significant enough portion of the work force that it impacts the entire work force. If enough techs are getting paid better then very few will work for less and soon the hiring companies will accept the higher wages. But there has to be some restraint. You cant keep demanding and demanding and demanding until pressures of the market place drive a company out of business.  In the case of a utility they would just displace the cost on to us, the electricity buying public. In the case of the auto industry, the price of autos goes up until demand goes down, and if demand goes down so goes profits and as go profits so goes the jobs.
The industry allready has minimum standards ,to a degree, imposed on it by federal regs and, I suppose, for self preservation. Though a union suplying techs with a minimum skill set ,reliable and demonstrable, would be great, NRRPT is a bit much. A union could insure that techs meet existing quals and standards of performance. But I think a union is mainly about worker treatment,  so help me get work at a better wage and stay employed. This not only helps me but helps all of us.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Jul 10, 2010, 02:59
From what I’ve read over the past few weeks on this thread has truly amazed me. For those who are trying to start a union. Save it. Since I’ve been in the business (1979), it has been tried and has failed on many a front.


With that kind of thinking...we would all be running around trying to kill our food and praying for fire. If there is a good reason you don't support it, then fine. Not doing it because nobody else has been successfull yet is a terrible reason not to do something.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retread on Jul 10, 2010, 03:36
With that kind of thinking...we would all be running around trying to kill our food and praying for fire. If there is a good reason you don't support it, then fine. Not doing it because nobody else has been successfull yet is a terrible reason not to do something.
Excellent point Brett!  fsennyes seems to be a bit jaded.  Maybe he got hosed in the early 90's when the union bombed?  Until proved wrong, I'll support unionization of road techs.  With the overlapping outages and stagnate wages, something has to change or I won't be able to support my family in the way we've become accustomed.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Jul 12, 2010, 09:29
Boys, my point was how long it’s been discussed trying to get unions in as a bargaining chip when all you have to do is use your value as a tech as the bargaining ship. Both of you missed the point. My point was why try to start a union (which by the way, all unions have been in a steady decline over the last twenty years)? Think out of the box. Band together but as something stronger. A stronger faction which could drive a greater point home to the utilities verses using the union label. I would like to see techs, etc., get higher wages because the utilities have been having their way for a long time. My thoughts were to use the fact there is a limited supply of good techs out there and use that as an advantage. Surely all of the “brains” we have out there could figure something out.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hamsamich on Jul 12, 2010, 09:53
That makes sense, but I still think the union idea also has value.  Seems short-sighted to me to belittle people for trying to organize to get a better deal, whether union or not.  Plenty of things have failed in the past then eventually got done.  Maybe there is a better idea, but at least someone (NPUA) is putting money where mouth is and giving it a real try.  To that I applaud!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retread on Jul 12, 2010, 02:48
Should I assume by your claim of support that you have signed and submitted to the NPUA an Authorization Card?   Yes sir I have!

How did you support them in the ten years you were out of the business?   Why, by working or course!  Nuclear isn't the only business out there.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Sun Dog on Jul 19, 2010, 10:15

Just don't forget that contracts are bid in advance, and most of the fall and some spring outage contracts are already bid on and won.


Just don't forget that contracts can be re-negotiated after they have been awarded.  Case in point:

Bartlett Nuclear has received a new Compensation Package for the Fall 2010 Refueling Outage at Fermi Nuclear Power Plant, to include new Pay Rates, Bonus Structure, and Travel Re-Imbursement.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 19, 2010, 11:14
Just don't forget that contracts can be re-negotiated after they have been awarded.  Case in point:

Bartlett Nuclear has received a new Compensation Package for the Fall 2010 Refueling Outage at Fermi Nuclear Power Plant, to include new Pay Rates, Bonus Structure, and Travel Reimbursement.

You are correct, they "Can", not "shall".  The utility can elect to NOT renegotiate, as they often do.  The SMART utilities make concessions to get what they want.  Not all utilities are smart.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Jul 19, 2010, 11:23
You are correct, they "Can", not "shall".  The utility can elect to NOT renegotiate, as they often do.  The SMART utilities make concessions to get what they want.  Not all utilities are smart.



You took the words right out of my mouth.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: UncaBuffalo on Jul 25, 2010, 11:08
Okay, I've been avoiding posting on this thread, because I didn't have a dog in the fight.  That may change in the near future, so:



What's the status of the training that NPUA will be providing their members?  I know it is a slow process to set up a decent training program, but that is the one huge advantage a union technician will have over a non-union one...when it happens.
 

Right now, the poor state of contractor training is the worst problem faced by utilities wanting to use rent-a-techs.  Many of them are relying more & more on shared resources, so they have a qualified individual that is ready to hit the ground running.  Even very experienced rent-a-techs have a hard time staying 'trained', if all they get is a couple of days of CBTs each year.
 

Whoever solves this problem...be it NPUA, or some other entity...will have my eternal gratitude.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Shawnee Man on Jul 25, 2010, 04:38
You are correct. Training is the key issue.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Sun Dog on Jul 25, 2010, 05:02

You are correct. Training is the key an issue.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Shawnee Man on Jul 25, 2010, 05:29
And you just proved why anybody can be put into an RP slot. Because the view even from within their own ranks is that training is not the key issue.

Why does operations retrain, recertify, and get the big bonus?

As long as nuclear industry feel its not the big issue, within the ranks not a big issue, then the plants will not and why should they if all they get are monkey see monkey do technicians.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Sun Dog on Jul 25, 2010, 05:47
And you just proved why anybody can be put into an RP slot. Because the view even from within their own ranks is that training is not the key issue.

Why does operations retrain, recertify, and get the big bonus?

As long as nuclear industry feel its not the big issue, within the ranks not a big issue, then the plants will not and why should they if all they get are monkey see monkey do technicians.

Anybody can be placed into an RP slot?  Referring to techs as monkeys?  Wow!  

Let me guess, you make a living selling training programs.  I am not minimizing the importance of training.  The lack of training for traveling RP techs is one of many issues that challenge our industry.  Why do you think utilities hire travelers to augment their RP staff during outages?  Because the traveler knows how to cover a job.  They are not hired because they know how to manipulate a decay formula.  No classroom or on-line training will prepare a tech to cover jumpers.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Shawnee Man on Jul 25, 2010, 06:11
Anybody can be placed into an RP slot? (Never a kin or girl friend with no previous training) Referring to techs as monkeys (good understanding on your part)?  Wow! 

Let me guess, you make a living selling training programs (No I dont get a pay check from selling training programs).  I am not minimizing the importance of training.  The lack of training for traveling RP techs is one of many issues that challenge our industry.  Why do you think utilities hire travelers to augment their RP staff during outages?  Because the traveler knows how to cover a job (you are saying RP Staff dont know how to cover a job?).  They are not hired because they know how to manipulate a decay formula(only RP Staff know how to do that?).  No classroom or on-line training will prepare a tech to cover jumpers (so you have no prior classroom training, such as mockup training for covering jumpers or divers?).
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RAD-GHOST on Jul 25, 2010, 06:27
fschip, In reference to your last posting.  The one that ain't there anymore....... :o

Creating an illusion of progress

After questioning the usefulness and motives of the union, the second imperative of a union avoidance campaign is to humanize the executives in the eyes of workers.  The goal is to portray the company as benevolent, compassionate, and caring.  According to former union buster XXXXX  XXXXXX, managers might learn at seminars ways to market themselves through the alteration of perceptions, such as appearing more open and caring by relaxing certain rules.

Management temporarily submits to the guidance of consultants concerning all communications with employees.  Examples of management's changes in procedures are publicized to all employees. Through surveys and interviews, the union buster develops an insight into who in management the union likes and trusts. These members of management become the new face of the company during the union organizing campaign while the others are coached on masking or overcoming their dislikeable characteristics. Absent such transformation, their visible role is diminished.

Give the workers just enough rope so that they believe they are off the leash, just enough to fool them into scorning the union. The golden rule of management control, as I taught it, was: incorporate dissent, institutionalize it. They would find, I promised my disciples, that dissension won't be half as attractive to the masses once the rebels are sitting down with the bosses...the cunning manager should embrace his workplace rebels. Be grateful for them, I offered, for they are your most effective shield against the union. If you can convince the activists that they'll accomplish more, perhaps have more power, without a union, why, you've won the war.

Managers or owners may be asked to visit worksites and exchange jokes, gossip, and laughter with workers. The theme of company-as-family prevails, with the union portrayed as an upstart outsider. Only after a union organizing drive is defeated, might company executives revert to their previous conduct.

RG
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Jr8black3 on Jul 25, 2010, 07:08
Monkeys? Sun you just lost my vote for anything, there are some folks out there that are so damn good and trying to teach others, and you have the the nerve to call them Monkeys..WTF is wrong with you? You better hope I never cross paths with you..If you think there are not (Monkeys) out there trying to help folks your wrong. I try anytime I can to get a person ahead..

I totally smite you for your comment. Your somebody that screwed up in their past and your trying to blame everybody..
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Sun Dog on Jul 25, 2010, 07:23
Monkeys? Sun you just lost my vote for anything, there are some folks out there that are so damn good and trying to teach others, and you have the the nerve to call them Monkeys..WTF is wrong with you? You better hope I never cross paths with you..If you think there are not (Monkeys) out there trying to help folks your wrong. I try anytime I can to get a person ahead..

I totally smite you for your comment. Your somebody that screwed up in their past and your trying to blame everybody..

What are you talking about?  I never referred to RP Techs as monkeys.  I did make note that Shawnee Man related RP techs to monkeys, as in monkey see, monkey do.  Jr, you are upset at the wrong person.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: UncaBuffalo on Jul 25, 2010, 07:27
...I am not minimizing the importance of training.  The lack of training for traveling RP techs is one of many issues that challenge our industry.  Why do you think utilities hire travelers to augment their RP staff during outages?  Because the traveler knows how to cover a job.  They are not hired because they know how to manipulate a decay formula.  No classroom or on-line training will prepare a tech to cover jumpers.

I totally agree with you that we have to be brought in to beef up the job coverage on the 'heavy' jobs.  No one that has been doing routines for 18 months is going to be on their 'A' game...the quality rent-a-tech will always be more prepared for the realities of hot work in their area of expertise.

Unfortunately, we (as rent-a-techs) tend to focus ONLY on our area of expertise.  I'd need several days to get up to speed on covering a jumper...I've been stuck up on the refuel floor for 15 years now.  Heck, are they even USING jumpers any more?  I thought it'd be 99% robotics by now?

And a word in defense of 'decay-formula-and-it's-ilk' training.  Yes, I can still pass the NU or DOE core if I study the day before.  But wouldn't it be nice to have some continuing training that kept me up-to-date on the theory AND the practical?  I've been sitting in a house job the past couple of years and it reminded me just how little training I HAD gotten (on the road) since sites started bringing the contractors in the day before the outage.  Someone...either the utilities, or NPUA, or XXX...is going to have to start training the rent-a-techs again.  Or this house-of-cards is going to fall over.

JMO
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 25, 2010, 07:59
The best way to stay trained is to work a lot. If you don't use it you lose it. Its true. I have covered steam jenny work,divers,cavity,refuel floor,rerack,TRU and on and on. I have participated in the mock up of jumping jennies( when I jumped) and TRU glove box work. I believe between work training is beyond the scope of a union.
A long time ago when I had long hair and played in rock and roll bands I ran an add in the local paper looking for a lead guitarist. After auditioning billions of musicions we finally settled on someone we felt comfortable with. One guy called and told me he was union and had to have union scale and paid rehearsals. I said good luck but no thank you. So
Where would the union build the training facility and who would do the training? Would we get travel pay to the facility? Would we get paid while we trained? Would there be enough bananas to go around? The union cannot be all things to all techs. There are many challenges facing techs both on the road and off. A union could help, mainly with the money.
I'm sorry,but monkeys? Would that be old world,new world,chimps,orangs,or maybe silver backs for fully mature techs? I want to at least be an orangutan.
Like many on this site I spent many years(~21) learning how to do my job. Allmost all on the job. A little good sense on my part and a whole lot of experience passed on to me from other more experience techs. How can a union address this?
Besides, I could get the termites out of the ant hill much quicker than a monkey and I could save you a lot of dose doing cavity work.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Old HP on Jul 25, 2010, 11:04
Training?  When was the last time anyone worked a PWR that actually included contract HPs in any kind of mock up training (especially with the actual workers involved.  ECT, Incores, transfer canal work, maybe even SGRs, etc ?
How about BWRs and CRDs, pulling incore intrumentation ?
It was VERY common 20 to 30 years ago, I have seen very little since then.
I am curious as I have only worked at 30 or so sites maybe I am at the wrong plants.
If the utilities are not willing to invest in training at their site because of the cost how will a union make it a reality.
Like everyone else I am looking for the answers to make this a better "Profession" than where we are now.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 25, 2010, 11:37
fschip, In reference to your last posting.  The one that ain't there anymore....... :o

fschip must have deleted it, because it's not in the moderation log, and only Tom and I can delete anything.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 26, 2010, 07:15
i was asked to delete it (not by anyone here!) until after the election on thursday.

I thank you for clearing that up.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Jul 26, 2010, 09:20
Training?  When was the last time anyone worked a PWR that actually included contract HPs in any kind of mock up training (especially with the actual workers involved.  ECT, Incores, transfer canal work, maybe even SGRs, etc ?
How about BWRs and CRDs, pulling incore intrumentation ?
It was VERY common 20 to 30 years ago, I have seen very little since then.
I am curious as I have only worked at 30 or so sites maybe I am at the wrong plants.
If the utilities are not willing to invest in training at their site because of the cost how will a union make it a reality.
Like everyone else I am looking for the answers to make this a better "Profession" than where we are now.

I believe; and this is only my opinion; they dont let RP Techs go to mock ups as much as they used to do because the plants have started taking less RP's and they don't have the manpower to do that. In reality all we are responsible for is dose rates and smears and any 18.1 or 3.1 tech should already know how to do those things. I agree that it does help to see the entire evolution and when you shoud take a smear or a dose rate, but it isnt absolutely necessary.

It will be interesting to see if the NPUA or any other union will  be willing to spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on mock-ups and training for RP's. They want an apprentice program; which we already have called Jr. RP. The only way that I know to train someone is either through OJT or mock-ups. Maybe the NPUA can get the utilities to get the Jr's out of their chairs and into the plants more often to watch and learn from sr's. I know there some jr's that already get in the plants as much as possible and I applaud you for that. When I was a Jr. it was expected that you spent most of your break time assisting Sr's. By assisting ,back then, I mean doing the work while they watched and let you know what you did wrong or stepped in and took over if you were lost  as to what to do next. Joe Kiman, Wayne Dees and Bill Mahoney taught me this way while at ANO in 1984 during my last Jr. job.  I better stop before I get off Topic.
 The most important thing here to me is this; If you call yourself a Sr. Tech , make sure you know what you are doing because you can be held liable for your actions and be fined and/or imprisoned for them. I say if you don't know or aren't sure about something then ask someone. Thats what I still do after almost 30 years because I don't claim to know it all and never will.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: UncaBuffalo on Jul 26, 2010, 11:07
...It will be interesting to see if the NPUA or any other union will  be willing to spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on mock-ups and training for RP's. They want an apprentice program; which we already have called Jr. RP. The only way that I know to train someone is either through OJT or mock-ups. Maybe the NPUA can get the utilities to get the Jr's out of their chairs and into the plants more often to watch and learn from sr's...

...but, if they don't provide a higher quality tech (through training and self-policing of standards), how is NPUA helping the utility?  

In the short-term, the shortage of qualified techs will push our wages up (and the NPUA definitely is helping speed this process)...but in the long-term, any union is going to have to supply a better product - or the utilities will go straight back to the low-bidder when the tech pool fills back up.  (Which will happen when the DOE sites lose the stimulus money...esp. at the rate colleges are starting new RP programs...)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jul 26, 2010, 11:15
The best way to stay trained is to work a lot. If you don't use it you lose it. Its true. I have covered steam jenny work,divers,cavity,refuel floor,rerack,TRU and on and on. I have participated in the mock up of jumping jennies( when I jumped) and TRU glove box work. I believe between work training is beyond the scope of a union.
A long time ago when I had long hair and played in rock and roll bands I ran an add in the local paper looking for a lead guitarist. After auditioning billions of musicions we finally settled on someone we felt comfortable with. One guy called and told me he was union and had to have union scale and paid rehearsals. I said good luck but no thank you. So
Where would the union build the training facility and who would do the training? Would we get travel pay to the facility? Would we get paid while we trained? Would there be enough bananas to go around? The union cannot be all things to all techs. There are many challenges facing techs both on the road and off. A union could help, mainly with the money.
I'm sorry,but monkeys? Would that be old world,new world,chimps,orangs,or maybe silver backs for fully mature techs? I want to at least be an orangutan.
Like many on this site I spent many years(~21) learning how to do my job. Allmost all on the job. A little good sense on my part and a whole lot of experience passed on to me from other more experience techs. How can a union address this?
Besides, I could get the termites out of the ant hill much quicker than a monkey and I could save you a lot of dose doing cavity work.

There has to be more to the training than what you pick up on the job.  A true apprenticeship program will have to include classroom and laboratory style training.

Who would pay?  You.  The members of a union are normally assessed an hourly amount to fund training.  

A training facility for RP's would most probably be somewhere that is conducive to summer attendance.  Since summer is the low season for RP work, it makes sense to do the bulk of training then.  Places like Las Vegas (where the lodging and airfare are heavily discounted in the summer) are good choices.  The Nevada Test Site is frequently used for training all kinds of people in radiation detection and measurement.  (Trinity Glass from the craters makes for excellent "fake" contamination).  Anyway, that's my suggestion.  NTS.
The classroom portion could be at least partially done online by CBT and Webinar type packages.

Students are not normally paid while in training, but the union could arrange for the employers to pick up the cost of transportation and lodging for their employees.  The instructors would, of course, be paid.

Off the job training is very valuable.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: LaFeet on Jul 26, 2010, 12:06
There has to be more to the training than what you pick up on the job.  A true apprenticeship program will have to include classroom and laboratory style training.

Students are not normally paid while in training, but the union could arrange for the employers to pick up the cost of transportation and lodging for their employees.  The instructors would, of course, be paid.

Off the job training is very valuable.

 Well put Troy - sign me up...heck Id even be glad to be an instructor again for something like this.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Jul 26, 2010, 12:55
...but, if they don't provide a higher quality tech (through training and self-policing of standards), how is NPUA helping the utility?  

In the short-term, the shortage of qualified techs will push our wages up (and the NPUA definitely is helping speed this process)...but in the long-term, any union is going to have to supply a better product - or the utilities will go straight back to the low-bidder as soon as the tech pool gets filled back up.  (Which is going to happen eventually when the DOE sites lose the stimulus money...esp. at the rate colleges are starting new RP programs...)

They will have to pay based on evaluations. They can't base it strictly on their training programs because some people may not be able afford to take the summer off and go to Las Vegas or some other training site. Or the Utility may not be able to let some long term people take off for months. Even though it is summer they still have some work that has to be done.  I know that in the past evaluations have been biased toward some people based on what the Site coordinator thought of them. For this reason there would have to be a better unbiased evaluation done by someone "in the know". This is one way to make sure the Utilities get what they are paying for.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 26, 2010, 01:00
Who would pay?  You.  The members of a union are normally assessed an hourly amount to fund training.  

= Fail
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 26, 2010, 01:10
I know that in the past evaluations have been biased toward some people based on what the Site coordinator thought of them. For this reason there would have to be a better unbiased evaluation done by someone "in the know". This is one way to make sure the Utilities get what they are paying for.

You don't think Site Coordinators are 'in the know'?  You think someone else is more unbiased?

I disagree.  The site coordinator gets more information about his people on site than anyone else would get, which equals them being the most 'in the know'.  They get to know all the 'behind the scenes' stuff that isn't made public.  The site coordinator may appear biased because you are not privy to all of the information they use in their judgments.

Sometimes it's easier to say that someone has it in for me, rather than to self reflect, and improve.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 26, 2010, 03:04
Theory recquires no centralized training facility,though it could be incorporated into one. A mock up can be an extremely valuable tool,and can be as simple as a hidden source to be found by frisking student. Many important skills and techniques can be learned in a simple mock-up. But,to be more effective complex or hazardous jobs recquire more  specific mock-ups. You want your actual working conditions to be as close to real as possible. Some sites have platform replicas for genny work,I have never seen a cavity mock-up,or seal table,rhr flats,etc.The TRU mock-up was very helpfull to me. We had a functioning glovebox and had the room laid out and posted similarly to what we were to face on the job. It helped in developing the work and covering the work.
Another viable option is internship. This can work if students are reacquired or of their own volition actively participate in the work. An intern is kind of like being a junior tech. But you have got to do more than set an access point.
It is beyond the scope of a union to even attempt to provide relevant training beyond just basic rad-con practices.Its also unrealistic to expect techs to travel and train on their own dime. After spending time in the Navy,or college,or the years it takes to become a senior why should anyone spend the money or time? Should it be reacquired?  The complex work environment cannot easily be reproduced so that it is an effective training tool.
The union cannot be expected to provide a better quality tech. You cannot winnow out the slackers completely. In my opinion a unions most usefull role is to protect the compensation package for the worker , help ensure fair hiring practices and fair treatment on the job.
It is up to the individual worker to develop a work ethic,personal integrity,and a desire to learn and to progress. You cannot teach these things, and expectations will not make it so.
A union will benefit all, not just the "good" techs. Like safety, peer pressure is probably has a great impact on shaping the culture in witch we work and live.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Jul 26, 2010, 07:58
You don't think Site Coordinators are 'in the know'?  You think someone else is more unbiased?

I disagree.  The site coordinator gets more information about his people on site than anyone else would get, which equals them being the most 'in the know'.  They get to know all the 'behind the scenes' stuff that isn't made public.  The site coordinator may appear biased because you are not privy to all of the information they use in their judgments.

Sometimes it's easier to say that someone has it in for me, rather than to self reflect, and improve.

Yes Site Coordinators are in the know and and yes I guess everyone is biased to an extent. Its just that I have seen coordinators fill out evaluation forms based on how good their friendship is with some techs.  I have worked outages where the SC never went to nights to see how his folks are on nights are doing. I was just saying that maybe there should be more than one person doing evaluations.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jul 26, 2010, 08:59
= Fail
How so?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 27, 2010, 07:23
How so?
Who would pay?  You.  The members of a union are normally assessed an hourly amount to fund training. 

From reading the posts, it seems that the tech's are not interested in training, or paying for others to get trained, or to even give a few weeks of their summer down time to get trained.

They don't want to be assessed an hourly amount to fund training, they just want more money.

I could be wrong, I'm just going by what I read from the people that are posting.  The only people that seem interested in getting training going are the people that are no longer techs.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 27, 2010, 10:06
Just so you know that I'm not being grumpy or anti-anything, below is a list of threads on the subject that I used to form my opinions.

Please review these older articles:

Sooo, Why Haven't the Roadrats organized? (http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,397.0.html) Spring 2003.
Rock the Boat (http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,801.0.html) Fall 2003 (One of my favorites)
The Last Outage! (http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,2585.0.html) Summer of 2004.
Spring Season, The Squeeze is on! (http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,3708.0.html) Fall 2004, the good stuff starts on the second page.

Besides money what drives an hp? (http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,1412.0.html) Spring 2004 (Sorry, its in the gold members area.)
Some stuff you probably won't read. (http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,249.msg103.html#msg103) December 2001.

Add them to the fact that I tried to organize an annual summer gathering of nuclear workers where they could get free training and certifications, and only one person signed up (Nuclear NASCAR).

They said they were only interested in coming if they were paid to come get the training.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HydroDave63 on Jul 27, 2010, 01:36
Even when I give house techs training, they dont like it if there is a test involved. So I can understand contractor, house, or new apprentice feelings of testing, but it is a necessary evil. The more training, the more knowledge that separates individuals abilities, the difference in pay levels.

Let me guess, you make a living selling training programs (No I dont get a pay check from selling training programs).

I'm seeing a bit of a disconnect here  ::)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: UncaBuffalo on Jul 27, 2010, 06:10
...Some stuff you probably won't read. (http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,249.msg103.html#msg103) December 2001...

;)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 27, 2010, 09:35
A union could encourage techs by stratifying pay per qualls. But after a point the tech performing more hazardous work should get compensated more. Or how bout the tech that operates more efficiently and saves the company money or dose? This gets complicated and is difficult to keep fair.
There allready exists a bunch of training resources: navy,college,plants have training Dept's,etc. There allready exists the minimum standards set forth by 10cfr.
What can a union do besides help keep track of qualls.or provide a very basic level of training that would be mostly useless for a lot of us. Classroom training for those who need help preparing for the tests would work.
At some point,early on, personal integrity and work ethic must come into play.
Now, as I have said before, I did not pull the rods in the sun. I am a pretty good tech but have met better. No one had to tell me to study for the tests once I realized I would have to take them. No one had to tell me to become NRRPT certed. I did these things on my own. I asked for and received help from time to time and would have had a lot more if this site existed  back then. But I did what I understood I needed to do.
Some of us like the work we do for the works sake. Some of us like the learning for the knowledges sake. That being said,I will not work for free. But I will and do study and learn for free. I paid for NRRPT, not the company I work for. The people I work for do not care. The only compensation I received was personal, I proved to myself that I could still get my weak and lazy mind to plod into a haltering trot. And I am proud that I did.
All this being said, a union could help through a pay structure that encouraged more qualls,but not tests alone. A test by itself is not an effective indicator of ability. It only shows an ability to take a test. Some of the best techs I have known were terrible test takers. And some of the worst were very good at a test.
A union will best serve the greater number of techs by getting us more money through collective bargaining. It will only work if the union is pretty much the only place you can get a tech from. And the union cannot be selective, it will have to work for all of us, not just the "good" techs. More techs will become good techs if ,like safety,(had to get that in there) the culture is such that peer pressure forces people to be better. No union can or should do that.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: UncaBuffalo on Jul 28, 2010, 05:02
...More techs will become good techs if...the culture is such that peer pressure forces people to be better. No union can or should do that.


???  Why should the union not be about us being better people?  ???


I know I can always improve.  And enjoy working around other techs that like to do the job right.  So, I think being in a union that did apply peer pressure to excel would be a wonderful thing. 

Set the perfomance bar high...the money will follow. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 29, 2010, 10:04
I think I can agree with you uncle. Peer pressure works the same in or out of a union. The idea of a union being discriminatory is what bothers me. I dint want a union to rate techs or send techs to jobs based on a system that may are may not be objective. The lack of objectivity and the favoritism is allready apparent in our industry a union has the potential to make it worse. So  set the bar high as long as we set it. The union should reflect the members. I hope I have made sense, I still have sucker marks from the hog head I just took off and am a little sleep deprived from the rotating shift.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RDTroja on Jul 29, 2010, 12:05
...in our industry a union has the potential to make it worse.

...in our industry a union has the potential to make it worse better.

You are both equally right. I think that is one reason why the distrust factor is so high right now.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: stownsend on Jul 29, 2010, 03:34
Maybe a union is the way to go after reading SEC recuitment for a hotcell specialist with 10 years experience offering $36 PER YEAR.I'm sure it's a typo but fun to poke around.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: LaFeet on Jul 29, 2010, 05:28
 I feel training is essential.  We should all strive to better ourselves as professionals.  I do see problems in assigning a location or time frame. 

 As for pay grades, I still believe that the better qualified and performing techs should be rewarded with a higher pay rate.  As for how we grade them, a standard needs to be developed and followed. 

 I would be willing to perform as a trainer if a system was set up to benefit my fellow Radiation Protection and Decon coworkers.

 Ok  nuff said  good luck all (still out where the sun don't shine - Humboldt) - Paule
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 30, 2010, 01:54
I just returned from the npua web site were I saw the info about the southern company vote and the grant application. I also saw a little about doe techs,road techs,all of us. I did not find a place on the site to get more information about npua. My comments are about how I feel about unions in general. i would like to know more about npua specifically. I have done a small amount of research on the history of unions in this country from 18th century to present. I don't like to vote from a position of ignorance and would like to know more about the npua. I saw a lot of industry news and some forum comments but no real information about npua. Am I just not looking in the correct part of the site? How can I become informed ? Preferably in writting in an official publication from npua.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 30, 2010, 02:50
all this talk of training and quals is well and good in its own right.however in a forum labeled "re npua"what amazes me is that in the weeks up to today when an actual vote is taking place at farley vogtle and hatch about whether or not the npua gets to negotiate for the 12 core techs there....no one in this forum thinks that a worthy topic of discussion.......simply amazing!. oh by the way a petition was filed against bartlett in florida for crystal river....hearing set for 8/6/10. sorry for the interuption....go back to generating another couple of pages on training and tech quals etc etc
training etc is important...... at the appropriate time. i guarantee you that the people that are voting today are not voting on training. they are voting on compensation, payrates /perdiem, holidays, overtime etc etc. after that comes benefits, health insurance and retirement...somewhere after that is training..continuing or otherwise. we as a union need to focus right now on what is THE MOST IMPORTANT to our members. in the npua we have had discuussions on training continuing as well as advancement/progression training, live classroom vs online. all of that is theoretical until the union is in a better position financially to address those issues. honestly though there are far more important issues facing the npua right now than training. fyi we have applied for a federal grant to set up an online continuing/ progression training course available at the npua.org website.

I appreciate you keeping us informed.  I also appreciate your participation here. +k
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Jul 30, 2010, 03:11
What happened with the vote at the Southern Company plants. The NPUA news said they would know something by 5PM Yesterday. Please inform us.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Jul 30, 2010, 04:21
What happened with the vote at the Southern Company plants. The NPUA news said they would know something by 5PM Yesterday. Please inform us.

From what I've been told the majority voted no to the union, I'm surprised that the result hasn't already been posted...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jul 30, 2010, 06:52
Quote
Lancaster Services is soliciting resumes to submit for the "one hit wonder" fall outage at Turkey Point. ...  there is no firm end date. Without one, you can be laid off at any time. In addition there is no double time being offered by any of them. If you must work the Turkey Point outage, then we ask that you sign and complete an Authorization Card during the time of your employment. Turkey Point will more than likely be the only outage that LSI provides supplemental staffing this fall. We will file a petition with the National Labor Relations Board and bring them to the negotiation table. I am sure that they did not budget the costs of a petition with the NLRB when they sent in their proposals.

Stuff like the above message posted on the NPUA website really bothers me.  Steve Lancaster is out there trying to help people.  He is paying $10 more per hour than a lot of other contracts.  He is a one man show, using his own money, just trying to survive.  The only thing the NPUA is going to accomplish by dragging him into court is driving him bankrupt, causing him to lose his house, and making his family live on the streets.  -- REAL nice bunch of guys.
 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: FatMalky on Jul 30, 2010, 07:10
Stuff like the above message posted on the NPUA website really bothers me.  Steve Lancaster is out there trying to help people.  He is paying $10 more per hour than a lot of other contracts.  He is a one man show, using his own money, just trying to survive.  The only thing the NPUA is going to accomplish by dragging him into court is driving him bankrupt, causing him to lose his house, and making his family live on the streets.  -- REAL nice bunch of guys.
 

I don't know Steve Lancaster, but surely he is out there to make money from the big money contracts the nuke plants (Turkey Point) are offering and ultimately provide some sort of competition to Bartlett and the like?

Or maybe, like you say, he is just out there to "help people".
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HydroDave63 on Jul 30, 2010, 08:26
the vote was 6-4 against the NPUA representing them with 2 people not voting i believe. the reason it was not posted earlier here was because i was travelling yesterday afternoon (ERIC:).the election is presently under review by the NLRB because of some questionable messages regarding future offers of compensation  from BARTLETT to the voting employees right before the election, (one was posted here last week by me prior to the election but was removed (by me) after one of the affected voting employees who felt intimidated requested that it be removed). the NPUA after review by the NLRB has until next Thursday to decide to file unfair labor charges against  BARTLETT regarding this election. now i have one question for you ERIC.why did BARTLETT feel the need to offer their employees a significant raise right before the scheduled election? last question ERIC, why can southern company pay NPUA members at those outages 35/hr (which is what started this whole election process anyways) and the best BARTLETT can offer in their new compensation is still 3/hr less than what the NPUA members were getting?
as i said in a post a couple of days before the election those 12 employees will be better off no matter which way they voted. that is of course if BARTLETT follows through with their offered compensation package on 9/1/10 right before the FARLEY outage!!!
p.s. ERIC you really dont have to answer those questions. i already know the answers:)

Oh my!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 30, 2010, 08:37
If you allready know the answers then why ask? Why don't you asnwer my question? I work at a place with ~400 hp techs. More than participate in the npua forum. I ask for information or directions to it.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jul 31, 2010, 02:45
Stuff like the above message posted on the NPUA website really bothers me.  Steve Lancaster is out there trying to help people.  He is paying $10 more per hour than a lot of other contracts.  He is a one man show, using his own money, just trying to survive.  The only thing the NPUA is going to accomplish by dragging him into court is driving him bankrupt, causing him to lose his house, and making his family live on the streets.  -- REAL nice bunch of guys.
 

While I believe that a union should be an option for the RP's, it is stuff like this that has soured me on NPUA from the start.  NO -- Not just the fact that they are threatening Steve Lancaster.  It is the fact that, for all their slick web design, they continue to say things that make them look like they haven't got a clue.  Aside from the fact that fschip writes his posts like a teenage girl texting to her friends, there are material errors of fact that can't be ignored.

First,
..... i guarantee you that the people that are voting today are not voting on training. they are voting on compensation, payrates /perdiem, holidays, overtime etc etc. after that comes benefits, health insurance and retirement...somewhere after that is training..continuing or otherwise. ....
The fact is that those people were voting one one question and one question only - to wit: whether or not they would assign the NPUA as their agents to bargain on their behalf.  The result of the vote either way does not guarantee a single one of those things mentioned above.  Obviously, those who vote against unionizing believe that they will be better off without Kevin and Frank on their side.  I guarantee YOU that everybody - regardless of how they vote - wants better compensation, benefits, training, pension ... etc.  The election is not about that.  It is about YOU and whether the workers want YOU on their side.  Full Stop.

Second,  NPUA cannot force LSI to negotiate unless and until the LSI employees sign authorization cards.

Frank, if you're still there, listen good.  Tell whoever speaks for the NPUA to stop acting like a bully.  Those tactics are probably the number one reason why 88% of this country's labor force is non-union.  (for non-government workers it is 92.4%)  Keep talking total CRAP like that and you can "guarantee" that you won't be responsible for making that closer to 92.3%

While I have your attention, I think I'll answer your question about why everybody was talking about training on the day that 12 techs are having an election.
1)It isn't the freaking moon landing fer chrissakes!  We aren't so glued to CNN awaiting the outcome of this world-changing election that we can't take a little time to chew the fat about something important to us. 
2)It's because most of us didn't know that there was an election.  Perhaps that is due to the total absence of any mention of it in the Union News section or the News/Events Calendar of the website that you tell us contains everything.  Maybe you ought to read that site now and again before you tell us yet one more time that it is the great oracle of all things we might want to know. 

I've been giving NPUA some credit lately for pointing in the right direction.  As long as you keep making progress in the right direction, I can't have much reason to criticize like I did before.  But, you still haven't totally convinced me that my first overwhelming impression was wrong.  Load up your ammo, but it seems to me that the safest place to stand is right where you're aiming.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 31, 2010, 07:02
"Those who tell you of trade-unions bent on raising wages by moral suasion alone are like people who tell you of tigers that live on oranges."

                                                                                                                                                -Henry George 1891
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 31, 2010, 07:15
Went to the npua web site again. I would like to know what the union stands for. The bylaws,the constitution,more info about what they intend to do. On the forum questions are met with cryptic  hostile comments. They bad mouth other nuke web sites. From what I can access on the npua site I have little information with witch to work. Again, I work with ~400 hp techs. Techs here do not know who you are or what you stand for.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 31, 2010, 02:08
The npua web site has good links to other sites but I have found little about the npua there. Perhaps it gets screened out here at work. I will go there one more time at home. If I find nothing there I Will waste no more time looking. If the rest of your union brothers have the same pet pees about helping someone find information about the union then good luck recruiting. You will fail. I myself am reasonably capable of doing research and you seemed to be a good source. I thought you would help. Unions are a hard sale in the south. So keep reminding all of the folks that read these posts how you represent your union. Remember,what you do for the least of my brethren you do for me. Or is it to me?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retread on Jul 31, 2010, 04:38
harmless both of your questions are answered on the npua website as i said before. ,there is a mission statement under the first tab and the constitution and bylaws are under the 3rd tab both of which are open to non members. one of my personal pet peeves is wasting my time answering questions that people can EASILY find on their own with a LITTLE effort.
as for what is posted in the public forum there those are individuals opinions and as far as i know they are not censored or edited.
Please note that I supported the union earlier.  After reading all the crap you have posted, I would like to withdraw that support.  Your arrogance is kind of unsettling at the least.  To have an inadequate website and still have no tolerance with those trying to understand what you represent, you leave very little room for support.  Maybe you should have counted to 200 before you responded to mostlyharmless?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hatchling2002 on Jul 31, 2010, 05:36
Aaaaammeeennn....... Finally, a voice of reason.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retread on Jul 31, 2010, 07:34
What the NPUA stands for (a.k.a. Mission Statement) takes < 30-seconds to find, on a slow connection.


The Constitution and By-Laws were equally simple to locate.


I will shave off a few seconds for the curious, go to:

http://www.npua.org/mission-statement.htm

http://www.npua.org/resource-center/constitution-bylaws.htm



 
Oh Sundog, you do know how to get to the point don't you?  I had no problems finding their mission statement, by laws, et all, but it's still a very inadequate website.  Their mission statement seems a little sophomoric and lacking in specifics.  I'm fairly sure mostlyharmless was able to find those topics.  I'm also fairly sure he couldn't find any specific plan to support. +K for your being such a smart a**!  It will make up for the smite I gave you yesterday.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 31, 2010, 07:44
Now that I am home I have been to the npua web site and can see all the tabs that were blocked by my sites security. So you see the problem was only  ignorance on my part. But instead of understanding you have acted with derision. That is unfortunate. But your organization is probably not well represented by only a pedantic few,so I will give the npua an objective re view. Its bad form to talk down to people, especially when so many see it,you will lose support for your cause.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 31, 2010, 09:19
According to what I read 40% of npua money will go to training. I am very concerned about training as I have done a bit on my dime. To talk about training is not drivel, especially at 40%. If you don't like the comments now, would you like it more if we are members? If I have a concern about training will my concern be considered drivel?
On the surface the npua looks good. All the talk about excellence and professionalism,pay structure and the intentions are admirable. The union is a good idea. How it all works out in reality may be something else.  Your comments about surfing at work are illogical unless you know what is permissable at my place of employment. And I have explained my difficulty with the web site. But you still imply insult. Maybe the first training npua should initiate should be pr.You should brush up on your people skills. I had no question other than how to find the information for myself. I have done that. You have shown your contempt for me,whom you do not know. While I respect you a great deal for the time and effort that must go into the npua and for devoting yourself to an ideal,especially, as you say,you may not benefit directly for it,perhaps you should reconsider your recruiting style. There was no need to respond to me in that way,it only invites distrust. Many ,many potential members read these posts and will not like the tone. Is this how you will treat other members?
Even though, I would ask every nuke professional interested in the unions to read the information on the npua web site, and do a little research on the history of unions. With all respect due,40$ a month and 1%. MH
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Jul 31, 2010, 09:25
Allmost 38,000 views and over 400 posts. Think about it.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Jul 31, 2010, 11:16
Well Frank,
Thanks for switching to capital letters for purposes other than shouting.  As you might notice, capitalization, punctuation, whole sentences, etc. makes it far easier to read.
Leaving those things out are a sign of laziness and disrespect for your readers.  It is as if you believe that we don't deserve the consideration that makes you expend the effort to use the shift key.
Anyway, thanks again.

I really understand what you are saying about the fact that the techs still in the business are working for a paycheck (a smaller than fair paycheck) and nothing else.  I get it.  I really do.  That is why I support the concept of organization.  Even if the votes fail, having them every now and then will keep the thought in the minds of management that they can only mistreat you so much before you eventually win one of those votes.  They have to give at least something just to stave that off.

But, please don't insult our intelligence.  Don't tell me that you and Kevin have nothing to gain.  I have read your constitution and bylaws.  If you get a contract anywhere where any single member is paid $40/hr that will result in Kevin's salary as President to be $162,864 per year.  Yours would be $140,400.  If you manage to get just one single person a rate of $45/hr, your salaries will be $183,222 and $157,950 respectively.  Of course, those salaries go away if you lose an election.  I see that elections are not yet scheduled.
Yes, you do have something to gain personally by organizing this union.  There isn't anything wrong about that, and it is right there in the open for everyone to see.  The only way for you to not gain is for the entire effort to fail.  You're not so pessimistic that you think it will,are you?  It is a little early to predict that it will fail.  So, it is a little early to be so sure that you won't hit that jackpot.

"ARTICLE XIV – SALARIES AND EXPENSES

Section 1. The salary of the President shall be 145% of the highest wage secured for the members of the NPUA through collective bargaining. The salary will be based on a standard work week of 54 hours. The salary will be paid in biweekly amounts.

Section 2. The salary of the Vice President shall be 125% of the highest wage secured for the members of the NPUA through collective bargaining. The salary will be based on a standard work week of 54 hours. The salary will be paid in biweekly amounts.

Section 3. The salary of the Secretary-Treasurer shall be 110% of the highest wage secured for the members of the NPUA through collective bargaining. The salary will be based on a standard work week of 54 hours. The salary will be paid in biweekly amounts. "
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Jul 31, 2010, 11:55
What an entertaining thread!  Watching the union organizing efforts tank was not nearly as much fun in the 80s, and 90s, and......
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Aug 01, 2010, 08:21
I read the bylaws and saw the salaries.  Benevolence is rare almost a myth. It mentioned nuclear energy specifically. Surely npua would be interested in the many folks at other nuke related sites. I cannot assume this is so.
 I don't understand, there are unions within the nuke industry; construction folks,security folks. There is the ibew. On the surface the npua looks good. We could all benefit, so why are techs so reluctant to organize?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Marlin on Aug 01, 2010, 11:41
I read the bylaws and saw the salaries.  Benevolence is rare almost a myth. It mentioned nuclear energy specifically. Surely npua would be interested in the many folks at other nuke related sites. I cannot assume this is so.
 I don't understand, there are unions within the nuke industry; construction folks,security folks. There is the ibew. On the surface the npua looks good. We could all benefit, so why are techs so reluctant to organize?

Once burnt twice shy!!!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: duke99301 on Aug 02, 2010, 01:01
they all look for them selfs thats why , my ex was at crystal river as a Jr. tech and was walking the line even when it was getting over I told her to go back in , but heck no stayed out one day to long and got canned as you recall most of the other techs had jobs lined up and walked right by the lines to work.
I was just a a job and was made to join the IBEW and they did nothing for me. oh but they did take my money.
look this new has new deals a buddy mine worked with them he liked them.
the only fair way is to work it like the craft locals 1st then travlers no diem cause you have a good package and no travelers as foremans ect ect.


 tell you what there a lot of old techs out there right now in there late 70s  you do the math,
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Aug 02, 2010, 03:35
197,198,199,200 Nope retread it did not work. Still peeved.  For the record DOG I am not posing as an NPUA official. I am the VP of the NPUA. As for the inadequate website and sophomoric mission statement, sorry it’s the best our personal limited funds can accommodate at this time. If you want to help then send a donation to web dev to the NPUA office in Sugarland Texas (I’ll personally make sure it gets spent on just that). Don’t want to do that but still want to complain about it….Tough.
As for harmless questions I took a nonnuclear professional and told them to find the NPUA  website and to find who they were and what were their constitution and bylaws….it took them less than 3 minutes to find everything. If you think I’m unsympathetic to someone who is surfing at work while I’m responding on my own offtime …..that’s TOUGH as well. Harmless still has not asked a question of me yet, that he cannot find the answer too fairly easily at NPUA.ORG. if you want to take the time to go back a couple of weeks ago before all the drivel about training, you will find that I did answer questions from Cammella that she could not find out on her own…..and had no problem doing it either. I even posted my own personal email for anyone else who had legitimate questions to ask me directly instead of depending on me seeing it here.
What you all fail to realize is that none of us here at the NPUA are compensated for our efforts. None of us here are lifelong UNION professionals….it has been a slow expensive learning curve for all of us. I can only speak for myself personally as to the following. If this union effort fails will it affect me directly….NO. I presently have long term employment as an rp tech at significantly higher compensation than the best cba./contract the NPUA has negotiated to date (which is much higher than the best contract companies typically are paying). If the union effort succeeds will it directly affect me….maybe….and that’s only if it happens in the next several years. I’m at the age now where I’m probably at my last job….never say never though. Why do I do it…..because I believe in it and I care about my younger sister who is in the business as well as my nephew just starting out in the business and anyone else in the business who is not close to retirement? I personally think that’s its bs for a company the size of Bartlett that the best they can do in their 401k is 200.00 per year no matter what you put in. I think its bs that you can work 35- 40 years in your field and when you “retire” after paying your home off you get to start a new mortgage called health insurance because when your cobra runs out through Bartlett or dz or anyone else that’s it….and that’s if you’re in good enough health to even be insurable…..you know what their response is TOUGH. I think its bs that I can go to an outage and make less hourly than the most junior house tech and probably end up having to show him how to cover jobs on top of it as well. If none of those things bother you then this union is not for you. If you want to be spoon-fed and have everything handed to you with no effort on your part this union is not for you. If you want to sleep on the job or falsify records or not live up in general to the npua code of conduct and then expect this union to go to the mat for you legally, this union is not for you.
Finally if I or Kevin seem a bit callous or unsympathetic because we won’t help those who won’t help themselves……remember it’s our time and dime that is pushing the effort forward that in all likelihood will never benefit us directly. Remember that the next time you criticize the incomplete web page or the unprofessional organizing strategy or the girlfriend posts on this site (troy). I’m done GIVING you anymore of my offtime this weekend. Frank

Who wants this guy in charge anything? Good leadership expects and plans for all of the rebuttles (sp).
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Aug 02, 2010, 03:48
now i have one question for you ERIC.why did BARTLETT feel the need to offer their employees a significant raise right before the scheduled election? last question ERIC, why can southern company pay NPUA members at those outages 35/hr (which is what started this whole election process anyways) and the best BARTLETT can offer in their new compensation is still 3/hr less than what the NPUA members were getting?  p.s. ERIC you really don’t have to answer those questions. i already know the answers:)

Hello FRANK, long time no talk to.  Even though I try not to respond to antagonistic posts, I will make an exception for this one as there are many individuals out there that just want the truth so here it is and as always take it or leave it, your choice.

1st question "why did BARTLETT feel the need to offer their employees a significant raise right before the scheduled election?

Answer, we have proposed many times over the past couple of years to increase wages at SNOC that never came to fruition.  After this past Spring Season we decided to try again and this time we are being taken seriously.  Our rate increase proposals were put in prior to us ever even knowing y’all would be filing a petition down there. 

as for your second question "last question ERIC, why can southern company pay NPUA members at those outages 35/hr (which is what started this whole election process anyways) and the best BARTLETT can offer in their new compensation is still 3/hr less than what the NPUA members were getting?

Answer, when we try to renegotiate rates with any client we of course always try to go as high as possible to increase the technicians overall compensation package as much as possible.  But as you know we don’t control the purse strings, the client does.  Your answer is the same as the answer to why couldn’t Bartlett match the rates that were being paid last spring?  Because it is out of our control.  Would i3 pay more than they could bill?  Doubt it.  Would Spectrum pay more than they could bill?  Doubt it.  It’s called Business 101, FRANK.  If we can’t bill it, we don’t pay it. I’m sure that is common practice for any company in this or any other business, you pay what you can bill, if you cant bill it, you don’t pay it unless of course you are looking to spend more than you make and when companies do that they go the way of so many others like ARC &  IRM.

So, FRANK I do believe you when you stated the following “ERIC you really don’t have to answer those questions. i already know the answers” I believe that you already knew the answers but I wanted to make sure that the rest of the interested parties out there knew them also and realize there is no nasty practices in play like you insinuate.   

I have posted this time and time again.  Union or Non, it doesn’t matter – we staff both.  It all comes down to the more we can pay, the more a tech can make, the more a tech can make the more likely they will stay in the business and the more likely that new techs will get into this business, the more that stay and get into this business, the more likely we can staff our commitments.  The better we staff the more work we get, the more work we get the better chance we have of giving technicians gainful employment.  Now for the greedy side – the more we can pay the more we can bill, the more we can bill the more we make.  Its very simple, once again Business 101. 

Anyways I feel I’ve ranted on long enough and addressed both of your questions FRANK.  You may want to try being less adversarial in the future, but my advice is like my answers to your questions, take it or leave it, your choice.  Good luck to you in your endeavors.

As always I hope y’all are having a safe and enjoyable summer.

Take it slow,

Eric
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Aug 02, 2010, 05:22
Business 101 - Profit margins...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smart People on Aug 02, 2010, 05:32
Business 101 - Profit margins...

Bad Bartlett!!!!....making profit.....BAD!!! (swats nose with rolled up newspaper)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Aug 03, 2010, 09:21
Invoice $48, tech pay $36...you do the math.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smart People on Aug 03, 2010, 09:44
12!! Did i get it right?

The next question is how much of that goes to administrative costs, withholding matching, unemployment insurance, health insurance (for those who take it)..... I"m sure you know the answer to this. Or maybe Eric can enlighten us.

I'm sure some on this thread would love to hear that Old Blue only makes $1 a day on their techs but that would hardly be an incentive to even be in this business and then who would you bargain with to make your 125% salary?

Why not make NPUA a staffing company in the first place. Then you can have all those profits to yourself rather than requiring union dues from every worker. Oh wait, then you would have administrative costs, withholding matching, unemployment insurance, health insurance (for those who take it)... never mind
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hamsamich on Aug 03, 2010, 09:51
lets see 1$ times 88 hours a week times 20 weeks times 1000 techs.  I know they are likely billing more hours than this but this is just a startin place...so the profit is at least a couple million if they are clearing a dollar past all the overhead.....don't read anything into these numbers anyone!!!  I just pulled them out of my butt as a starting point.  but heck I wouldn't sneeze at a couple mil a year.  so if they could only make a buck an hour per tech it still seems viable.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Aug 03, 2010, 11:58
Actually my statement was $1 a day total

Jim, $1/day is way off.  The other poster is correct. Most companies add 3% to 6% to a billing rate as profit, not to be confused with overhead which can be 6-12%.  Profit is about $1/hr on a $22/hr employee or about $3/hr on a $60/hr employee.

So, if you have 3 techs working a backup contract, 72 hrs a week, for 4 weeks, you just made $216 a week profit ($864 total) on that backup contract for all of that trouble.

As the poster also noted, the economy is in the scale. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smart People on Aug 03, 2010, 12:43
I was speaking to the perceived mentality.

I'm sure some on this thread would love to hear that Old Blue only makes $1 a day on their techs

Also the idea put out there was that the $12 over the tech's wages was pure profit, no overhead involved.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retread on Aug 03, 2010, 02:14
That was the point I was trying to make to the Kool-Aid drinker...
Frank, oh Frank, you're not going to make too many friends with that attitude!  Do you realize you represent the Union on these threads?  How do you figure on getting more support when you are so abrasive here?!  Like SmartPeople (swats nose with rolled up newspaper!)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Aug 03, 2010, 03:11
I know…I’m actually a supporter a person getting a fair wage. The tech companies get more than their fair share which is why I’m a bit curious about some of the responses here. In fact, the obvious tech company suck ups really surprises me. It’s a far cry from the Chuck Pierce NUMANCO days…
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smart People on Aug 03, 2010, 05:21
Okay, Back on topic (I think).

I'm guessing that fsennyes is probably close to agreement with your  :-> post.

Invoice $48, tech pay $36...you do the math.

Fortunately someone already did:

It is not possible.

Contracts area bid as such:

Billing Rate = Worker Pay Rate + Costs (Tax's & Insurance) + Overhead + Profit

These costs are fixed percentages.  The amount of money the employer has to pay in Federal & State taxes, FICA, unemployment insurance, and workers comp, are all fixed percentages (Different companies can negotiate different workers comp rates based on their safety record).  The only way to adjust overhead is to fire office employees, and I don’t think we want them to let the payroll lady or the recruiter go.  The only adjustable number is the desired profit, which typically is fixed at ~3% for successful companies.  You could add more profit to your proposal, but then you’ll lose the bid on the contract.  Below are some examples.

Billing Rate = Worker Pay Rate + Costs (Tax's & Insurance) + Overhead + Profit
Billing Rate = $22.50/hr Pay Rate + 22-36% Direct Costs + 6-12% Overhead + 3-6% Profit

Billing Rate = $22.5/hr Pay Rate + $8.10/hr Direct Costs + $1.35/hr Overhead + $0.68/hr Profit

Billing Rate = $32.63/hr

These are realistic numbers, I can't say that these are Bartlett's exact numbers, (probably a few % high, the actual billing rate is probably lower than that above) but they are realistic.

Conclusion:  I don't see how Bartlett could pay a Union $8-$10/hr more than they can bill on their current contract.

Bartlett doesn’t mind paying people more, if they can win the contract.  Because everything else (profit including) are percent multipliers.  When you get paid more, THEY get paid more.

If you get paid $10/hr, your employer has to pay taxes and insurance at ~36% = $3.60/hr, their overhead is ~6% $0.60/hr (again, just an example I don't know their specific numbers, but they are in the ball park) and their profit would be 3% or $0.30/hr, with a billing rate of $14.5/hr.

If you got paid $100 an hour, then Bartlett would make a profit of $3/hr on you instead of 30 cents.  The more you make, the more they make.  They LOVE paying you more.  That means THEY make more.

If they had to pay a Union $5/hr, and you $35 ($40/hr total), Bartlett wouldn't mind, because then their billing rate would be $58/hr, and $1.20/hr of that would be profit, which is better than the $0.68/per hour they are making on you now. (As long as they got the contract awarded... it's more likely that Atlantic would get the contract because they could bill at $33/hr instead of $58/hr.

I’ve posted these numbers before, and how these contracts really work.  People don’t want to believe the facts.  They want to think Bartlett makes $100/hr on them.  It just isn’t true.  If it was, I’d be in the tech rental business.  But at 67.5 cents an hour profit ($27/week on 40 hrs), it’s not worth the hassle.  I’d rather pick up cans along the road.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smart People on Aug 03, 2010, 05:40
How about one standing on a soapbox or speaking from an altar?

Sorry, fsennyes portrays the tech companies as the devil raking money hand over fist over the bodies of the individual worker and calls those who disagree as "the obvious tech company suck ups " and "Kool-Aid drinker"

I'm all for negotiating for better pay and benefits and if the union can do a better job than me for me then I am all for it. Of course you end up working for the union and not necessarily the company. but I digress and I have already been  [spank] for that.

I'll get off of my (http://forum.case.edu/smileys/soapbox.gif) for today.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Aug 04, 2010, 09:20
"Sorry, fsennyes portrays the tech companies as the devil raking money hand over fist over the bodies of the individual worker and calls those who disagree as "the obvious tech company suck ups " and "Kool-Aid drinker""

On the contrary, I think a business should hire employees and make profits. I also agree in fair trade which hasn’t been the case in a while. The “monopoly” company(s) have a nice grip on the situation which I don’t agree with. Collusion has run rampant over the years which people turn a blind eye to so they can make car payments.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Old Dude on Aug 04, 2010, 03:07
Truth is Bartlett has a built in overhead expanse clause and profit margin clause in all of their contracts.
Senior techs are being billed at $55/hr for all hours worked.
Anyone can request the contract under the Freedom Of Information Act at TVA a government facility. 8)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Aug 04, 2010, 03:55
Truth is Bartlett has a built in overhead expanse clause and profit margin clause in all of their contracts.
Senior techs are being billed at $55/hr for all hours worked.
Anyone can request the contract under the Freedom Of Information Act at TVA a government facility. 8)
I'll bet that the real truth is that you haven't read ALL of Bartlett's contracts.
What you describe is typical for a Federal government contract.  It is absolutely not typical of a commercial contract.
Historically, TVA jobs were outside the norm in that they paid a lot higher than the commercial nukes but no per diem.  I believe that this has changed, but it doesn't necessarily mean that per diem isn't built into the hourly rate.  That used to be common practice, although it is rare these days.
Anyway, $55 is much higher than the normal billing rate for a Sr. RP tech - which is one reason why I don't try to staff those jobs.  To make the juice worth the squeeze you have to operate at very high volume or high gross margin.  You have to spread out your overhead over a lot of techs working a lot of hours in order to turn a net profit and still be able to compete.  What many people don't realize is that Bartlett, Inc. is much bigger than just Bartlett Nuclear.  But even without the other parts of Bartlett, BNI is still big enough to employ economies of scale.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Old HP on Aug 24, 2010, 10:38
So getting back on topic.....
Where do we sign up for the $35 & $150  Sr. Tech jobs now? 

                  Old HP

   P.S.  That job does come with a rental car doesn't it?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Aug 25, 2010, 11:30
Truth is Bartlett has a built in overhead expanse clause and profit margin clause in all of their contracts.
Senior techs are being billed at $55/hr for all hours worked.
Anyone can request the contract under the Freedom Of Information Act at TVA a government facility. 8)

Truth is you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about - I'm not going to list out our actual rates as they are proprietary information and I am not authorized to do so but I can tell you you are so far off base that your not even in the park as our rates are substantially lower than what you claim.  You can continue to think what you want and spread the lies all you want, I know the truth and will continue to tell it as long as there are individuals like yourself out there hiding your identity and spreading lies, falsehoods, and half-truths. 

Eric

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Aug 25, 2010, 01:55
Whatever...the number moves according to the contract. You are fooling know one. Combined services or just HP. Making enough for the shareholders to be happy. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: UncaBuffalo on Aug 25, 2010, 05:05
vote at crystal river yesterday was 12-2 in favor of npua representation.

Thanks for the update!


(And for being an on-topic poster!)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Aug 26, 2010, 10:12
Whatever...the number moves according to the contract. You are fooling know one. Combined services or just HP. Making enough for the shareholders to be happy. 

And what are you in this business for?  The Love of the Game?  The betterment of all mankind?  No, you - like the rest of us - go to work to get paid.  So, why make that sound dirty when someone else is doing it?  It is "evil corporate greed" when the company wants to take in a profit.  It is "corruption" when your union wants you to pay dues and assessments.  But, it is "only fair" when you want to double your pay without increasing your skills?
Work on this skill.  Attention to detail.  You are impressing "know one".
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Aug 26, 2010, 10:53
I have tried to avoid this topic but its like trying to drop a bad habit. Look,the truth is that Bartlett has built a successfull business that has employed a lot of people over the years. Whats wrong with that? I still shop at Walmart and the Waltons are billionares. I am not endorsing these companies but they have done what most of us would love to do if we had the forsight and drive to do it; start a business. What profit margin is acceptable? What pay is acceptable? Look at this web site. Blind monkeys with no hands underwater could create this site faster than I could. I don't resent it, and I do endorse this site. I agree to do relatively specific work for a specific wage. I agree to it. I will not work for free. I don't expect anyone else to either. But I do have choice. With  or without a union I will have choice.
Fair pay for fair work.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Aug 26, 2010, 11:10
The "know one" comment was a joke. Sorry you didn't get it beer court. Otherwise I could care less what Bartlett makes. All I was trying to point out was the bs from boy bartlett. Sympathy was not something I was willing to give someone who makes a ton of money. Good for them though. Wish I would have thought of it first.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Aug 26, 2010, 03:50
The "know one" comment was a joke. Sorry you didn't get it beer court. Otherwise I could care less what Bartlett makes. All I was trying to point out was the bs from boy bartlett. Sympathy was not something I was willing to give someone who makes a ton of money. Good for them though. Wish I would have thought of it first.

Once again I get sucked into the fray.  Not looking for sympathy, never have, never will and if you think I was, then your even more lost than your posts lead me to believe you are.  As I have stated in many posts before, I'll lay out the truth as I know it, you don't have to believe me and if you choose not too all the more power to you, I don't begrudge anyone for wanting to live in ignorance.  It is what it is. 

I apologize to the rest of you for the tangent this thread has taken, now back to the topic at hand...

Eric
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: OldHP on Aug 26, 2010, 09:12
Quote
Once again I get sucked into the fray.  Not looking for sympathy, never have, never will and if you think I was, then your even more lost than your posts lead me to believe you are.  As I have stated in many posts before, I'll lay out the truth as I know it, you don't have to believe me and if you choose not too all the more power to you, I don't begrudge anyone for wanting to live in ignorance.  It is what it is. 

I apologize to the rest of you for the tangent this thread has taken, now back to the topic at hand...

Eric

If you are unhappy, don't blame it on some one who is doing a job and keeping folks from being unemployeed.  Eric is doing his job and keeping up what Bruce started.  I've never met the gentleman, but I know Bruce and have always concidered him a friend - so by proxie - Eric is a friend.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: twinturbo427 on Aug 26, 2010, 09:44
I have tried to avoid this topic but its like trying to drop a bad habit. Look,the truth is that Bartlett has built a successfull business that has employed a lot of people over the years. Whats wrong with that? I still shop at Walmart and the Waltons are billionares. I am not endorsing these companies but they have done what most of us would love to do if we had the forsight and drive to do it; start a business. What profit margin is acceptable? What pay is acceptable? Look at this web site. Blind monkeys with no hands underwater could create this site faster than I could. I don't resent it, and I do endorse this site. I agree to do relatively specific work for a specific wage. I agree to it. I will not work for free. I don't expect anyone else to either. But I do have choice. With  or without a union I will have choice.  Fair pay for fair work.

See the bolded copy above?  This is just a small fraction of what it takes and I wholeheartedly agree.
See the red copy above?       This sentence is almost exactly what came out of my mouth when I was asked to train uncertified technicians to do MY JOB after which I would be "released" from my position.  I had requested a pay raise and the counter offer was for me to train my replacements.

I reread the line about creating this website ten times trying to figure out how it could have possibly offended Mr. Rennhack.  It appeared as though mostlyharmless was being completely self-deprecating as to his website creation abilities.

I too have avoided this topic like a visit to the proctologist.  Being an outsider newbie, the union debate seems divisive and counter productive.

WARNING: Shameless pitch---> Maybe if I was inside , I would have a better feel for what this is all about.  :D

sidenote: I have spent most of my life in a "right to work" state, few unions.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: NJ on Aug 28, 2010, 03:16
After reading this thread I'm not too impressed with the V.P. of the union.  Actually I'm a bit embarrassed for him.  Sounds like he was downing a few brews before he hit the send button.  I don't think I want you representing me...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Incline on Aug 28, 2010, 04:21
 Does the utility have to recognize the NPUA should the contractors at the site decide to organize? If not, then what is to stop the Utility from changing contract companies along with baseline workers at the end of the contract? Thereby getting rid of the Union and paying lower wages again.

 The way I see it is that any gains the NPUA makes could be short lived if they do not negotiate directly with the utility. At my site we have a pay scale for what the contractors will be paid and how they will be paid in our contract. While they are not members of the union, their employer pays a fee for them to work under our contract. From what I hear, the contractors like how they are paid...double time on Sunday, high time, ect..

 I hope it works, I was a contractor for 14 years and remember very well how I was treated by the various contract companies out there. Mostly good, but one company in particular had a bad habit of sending my check to sites I wasn't at.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smooth Operator on Aug 30, 2010, 02:58
476 posts deep......Is NPUA a reality yet?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Aug 30, 2010, 10:20
476 posts deep......Is NPUA a reality yet?

Bingo.  Fun discussion topic....entirely obsolete concept.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Sep 12, 2010, 04:07
NPUA certified by the NLRB

congrats to all that participated in the effort at crystal river, especially those that had the courage to vote their conscience. it is time for a positive change. now starts what may be the tougher part of getting big blue to negotiate openly and fairly. once again congratulations:):)

Frank, I gotta ask this.... did you ever think that perhaps everyone did vote their conscience. Just because some voted against the NPUA does not mean that they didn't vote the way they actually wanted.

We are a world made up of many and not all of us believe in the same thing, I know its hard for some to accept that but that's the truth and nothing but.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Sep 12, 2010, 04:40
Frank, I gotta ask this.... did you ever think that perhaps everyone did vote their conscience. Just because some voted against the NPUA does not mean that they didn't vote the way they actually wanted.

We are a world made up of many and not all of us believe in the same thing, I know its hard for some to accept that but that's the truth and nothing but.



I am convinced that no matter what Frank posts, he'll catch a hard time. I think his point was a valid one about voting your conscience. Working as a tech on the road leaves few choices for employers, openly supporting this union movement can be an anxious position to be in when your trying to make a living or raise a family. I can see where someone might not vote the way they really feel for fear of losing income. Why don't we give him a break and let the good news just be good news?.

Thanks for the update Frank, AWESOME news!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retired nuke on Sep 12, 2010, 06:58
Congrats NPUA

Now comes the hard part.... an actual contract.
The certification by the NLRB now gives NPUA the right to bargain. Not the right to get everything they want. I hope that they get a fair contract. Remember that wages are but a part of it. Work rules (overtime, seniority, call ins, shift schedule, duties and responsibilities) are usually the majority of the verbiage in a good contract.

Good luck
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Sep 12, 2010, 11:39
I am convinced that no matter what Frank posts, he'll catch a hard time. I think his point was a valid one about voting your conscience. Working as a tech on the road leaves few choices for employers, openly supporting this union movement can be an anxious position to be in when your trying to make a living or raise a family. I can see where someone might not vote the way they really feel for fear of losing income. Why don't we give him a break and let the good news just be good news?.

Thanks for the update Frank, AWESOME news!

Brett, you have it wrong. The Crystal River vote was nearly 3 weeks ago and Frank has already put out his congrats on the vote. I had no problem with that post or him repeating his congrats. I have a problem with him taking pot shots at those who did not vote for the NPUA.

In my opinion when he makes a statement such as he did he should not be shocked to see so negative feedback. and BTW pressure can come from any side and negative remarks such as these can cause fear or anxiety in a person as well.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 13, 2010, 07:10
NPUA certified by the NLRB

congrats to all that participated in the effort at crystal river, especially those that had the courage to vote their conscience. it is time for a positive change. now starts what may be the tougher part of getting big blue to negotiate openly and fairly. once again congratulations:):)

I believe that even the ones that voted no, most probably voted their conscience. I believe that if you agree to a certain amount of pay and benefits, then you should be willing to work for that amount untill that particular job is over and it is time to negotiate for your next job. So if I had been there, and even though I wanted the NPUA to represent me, I still could not have voted yes.  I guess for the NPUA's sake its a good thing I haven't been working at a site that they have been trying to win a vote at. It is just my opinion and doesn't really mean anything to anyone but me. I was taught by my Dad that all a man has is his word, and you are only as good as your word. For this reason if I say I will do something then I will do it. And if I say I will work a job for set amounts then I will work it for those amounts and negotiate for more next time around.

But what I don't understand is why accuse "Big Blue" as you call them, of not wanting to negotiate openly and fairly. I doubt if Bartlett minds paying more and having better benefits as long as it doesn't decrease their profit margin. What everyone needs to keep in mind is this; The contract  is already bid on and awarded and they will have to go to the Utility and ask for more money and if the Utility says no then Bartlett can't increase anything until the contract is bid on again. Then it is a good possibility that some other contractor will step in and under bid them and win the contract. Then the NPUA will have to start all over again with the new company.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Sep 13, 2010, 07:36
So...  If Bartlett Nuclear was forced to negotiate with a union, at the higher union rates... What company could negotiate a lower rate directly with the utilities?  Bartlett Services?  Bartlett Support Services?  El Camino?  Bartlett De Mexico?  Atlantic Group?  Lancaster Services? EnergySolutions?   Denuke? ReNuke? i3? VAS? URS? Entercon? Marcom? SEC? Cabrera?

There is no shortage of companies out there willing to take a contract from Bartlett when they are forced to bid at a higher union rate.  Many of them would even hire out the staffing and payroll back to Bartlett.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 13, 2010, 09:05
Thats a good question. I bet there would be companies starting up just to under bid them. Scary times are before us I'm afraid.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: nukems on Sep 13, 2010, 11:39
We have been certified by the National Labor Relations Board as the representative for the Bartlett employees working at the Crystal River nuclear plant. We will be contacting Bartlett management on Monday, September 13th to initiate negotiations. Thanks to all of those that stood up and voted. Thanks goes out to those who helped organize and handed out the Authorization Cards.

It's been one step at a time. We have been at this for almost three years now. Many people, especially those on other websites, have not given us any credit in our effort. They've continued to take what we have accomplished and tried, and I say tried, to find fault with our effort. This has been a clear sign of those people trying to slow down our momentum. What was it some of them said? "The NPUA was on life support" and "can't beat a dead horse". What will they be saying now?

Maybe Kool Mow Dee can say it best...."How Ya Like Me Now?"

I wish everyone a healthy and prosperous 2010
Kevin McLaughlin
President NPUA
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: nukems on Sep 13, 2010, 11:40
THIS GREAT NEWS!!!! WE ALL NEED TO GET ON THE BAND WAGON. ALL JR. SR. TECHS, DECONNERS AND ALARA IF YOU HAVE NOT JOINED THE UNION PLEASE DO SO. ALL OF YOU THAT WILL BE WORKING FOR ATLANTIC THIS FALL; WE ARE HAVING A UNION VOTE AT THE PLANTS. ANYONE WHO HAS WORKED THREE OUTAGES IN THE LAST TWO YEARS WILL BE ABLE TO VOTE. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE NOT WORKING FOR ATLANTIC THIS FALL YOU CAN STILL VOTE. WE ARE HAVING A NATIONAL MAILING TO YOUR HOME OF RECORD ON FILE WITH NPUA. WHEN YOU RECEIVE YOUR BALLOT VOTE YES AND SEND THEM BACK AT ONCE. IF YOU HAVE NOT SIGNED A UNION CARD OR A CARD ASKING FOR UNION REPRESENTION PLEASE DO SO.WE NEED YOUR ADDRESS TO SEND THE BALLOT. YOU CAN FIND BOTH CARDS ON THE NPUA SITE.

CRYSTAL RIVER IS JUST THE START. LET'S ALL GET OUT THERE AND VOTE!! AND GET YOUR FELLOW TECHS, DECONERS, AND ALARA TO DO THE SAME.
WITH HARD WORK AND DETERMINATION WE CAN ACHIEVE THE GOAL OF BE COMING A UNION WORK FORCE AND ACHIEVE HIGHER WAGES WITH BENIFITS. IT WOULD BE NICE TO BE ABLE TO RETIRE SOME DAY.
THANK YOU KEVIN FOR ALL YOUR HARD W

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Marlin on Sep 13, 2010, 11:54
THIS GREAT NEWS!!!! WE ALL NEED TO GET ON THE BAND WAGON. ALL JR. SR. TECHS, DECONNERS AND ALARA IF YOU HAVE NOT JOINED THE UNION PLEASE DO SO. ALL OF YOU THAT WILL BE WORKING FOR ATLANTIC THIS FALL; WE ARE HAVING A UNION VOTE AT THE PLANTS. ANYONE WHO HAS WORKED THREE OUTAGES IN THE LAST TWO YEARS WILL BE ABLE TO VOTE. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE NOT WORKING FOR ATLANTIC THIS FALL YOU CAN STILL VOTE. WE ARE HAVING A NATIONAL MAILING TO YOUR HOME OF RECORD ON FILE WITH NPUA. WHEN YOU RECEIVE YOUR BALLOT VOTE YES AND SEND THEM BACK AT ONCE. IF YOU HAVE NOT SIGNED A UNION CARD OR A CARD ASKING FOR UNION REPRESENTION PLEASE DO SO.WE NEED YOUR ADDRESS TO SEND THE BALLOT. YOU CAN FIND BOTH CARDS ON THE NPUA SITE.

CRYSTAL RIVER IS JUST THE START. LET'S ALL GET OUT THERE AND VOTE!! AND GET YOUR FELLOW TECHS, DECONERS, AND ALARA TO THE SAME.
WITH HARD WORK AND DETERMINATION WE CAN ACHIEVE THE GOAL OF BE COMING A UNION WORK FORCE AND ACHIEVE HIGHER WAGES WITH BENIFITS. IT WOULD BE NICE TO BE ABLE TO RETIRE SOME DAY.
THANK YOU KEVIN FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK.

WALLY HENDRIES
NPUA

Nukeworker rule #8...  [RTFM]
8. DON'T TYPE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS, IT IS THE ELECTRONIC VERSION OF SHOUTING AT PEOPLE.

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,4700.0.html
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 13, 2010, 11:56
I think it was intentional.  I know the nukeworker member.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hamsamich on Sep 13, 2010, 12:28
Maybe no shortage of companies, but will there be a shortage of techs WILLING to work for those companies?  That is the important part.  Keep steering torwards the best deal (NPUA), and there won't be many techs working for those other companies, hopefully.  Spread the word so people know what is what.  I feel like my best bet as a contractor is the NPUA.  When and if I start working outages again, I will give them priority as long as they have a job for me.  Yes Bartlett has to go by the contract they signed, but if they would have thought to organize people to begin with, they may not have had to sign those contracts in the first place....Not saying Bartlett is evil, but Bartlett cares about Bartlett, and it seems to be a short-sighted view.  If we have the opportunity as technicians to impact our own bottom line, let's do it.  Because Bartlett cares about their own bottom line first and foremost.  Of course they do!  Just the way the world works.  If we want to take care of us, we are going to have to do it ourselves.

I don't feel like people are asking for an unfair rate of pay and bennies, if they were the utility might have more incentive to find another way to staff outages.  But I feel we deserve what the NPUA is asking for.  Hopefully I am correct.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 13, 2010, 01:57
We have been certified by the National Labor Relations Board as the representative for the Bartlett employees working at the Crystal River nuclear plant. We will be contacting Bartlett management on Monday, September 13th to initiate negotiations. Thanks to all of those that stood up and voted.


Kevin McLaughlin
President NPUA

Are you even thanking the ones that voted no

Maybe no shortage of companies, but will there be a shortage of techs WILLING to work for those companies?  That is the important part.  Keep steering torwards the best deal (NPUA), and there won't be many techs working for those other companies, hopefully.  Spread the word so people know what is what.  I feel like my best bet as a contractor is the NPUA.  When and if I start working outages again, I will give them priority as long as they have a job for me.  Yes Bartlett has to go by the contract they signed, but if they would have thought to organize people to begin with, they may not have had to sign those contracts in the first place....Not saying Bartlett is evil, but Bartlett cares about Bartlett, and it seems to be a short-sighted view.  If we have the opportunity as technicians to impact our own bottom line, let's do it.  Because Bartlett cares about their own bottom line first and foremost.  Of course they do!  Just the way the world works.  If we want to take care of us, we are going to have to do it ourselves.

I don't feel like people are asking for an unfair rate of pay and bennies, if they were the utility might have more incentive to find another way to staff outages.  But I feel we deserve what the NPUA is asking for.  Hopefully I am correct.

I doubt if there will be a shortage of techs because most techs have bills to pay and toys to buy, so if another company steps in and takes the contract at the lower rates then the people will still go there and work. Crystal River has never had any trouble staffing in the past and probably won't in the future. As far as Bartlett looking out for themselves first, that should come as no surprise to anyone. I have been working for Bartlett for close to twenty years,except when I was working at SRS, and they have taken pretty good care of me and my family. Maybe I haven't made millions, but then again maybe I have, either way I have always been paid what we decided on and  therefore I can't complain about it. I agree that we can impact our own bottom line but what I am saying is that let's just be careful because we don't want our bottom line to be smaller than it already is.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hamsamich on Sep 13, 2010, 03:34
I was under the impression we have a shortage of techs right now.  Not sure about this, but have seen some of the harder to staff outages not able to fill techs in the 26/hr range, one was 30 techs short according to management in 2008.  One of the hardest plants to get into was 6 techs short last outage.  I have had conversations with 3 subcontract companies at SRS and they beg me to supply them with names to fill spaces here because they are given 12 spots and can only fill 5.  40 house positions were offered at SRS with SRR and they could not fill them all after months of searching.  Talked to Eberline last year and they complained of not enough people to fill spots at Hanford; seems chronic in nature to me, they post on THE OTHER WEBSITE at leas once a week.  I guess it is all a matter of opinion, but to me there is evidence of at least a moderate chronic shortage of 3.1 ANSI RP techs starting about 5 years ago and slowly getting worse.

I am also worried about pricing myself out of the market but 22/85 is WAY too low in my opinion.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Sep 13, 2010, 03:40
I am also worried about pricing myself out of the market but 22/85 is WAY too low in my opinion.

Especially with all the DOE sites happily paying $30-$38.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 13, 2010, 05:53
I am working at a Nuclear plant on a 9 month assignment.  House decon gets $25/hr,  Union laborer from the hall $28 and 3.1 Sr for 20 years gets $27.  The example of the current process of he who bids the lowest wins.  Fully qualified in house Sr.$44/hr.  How does the management think their guys are worth so much and we are worth so little.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Sep 13, 2010, 09:31
I am working at a Nuclear plant on a 9 month assignment.  House decon gets $25/hr,  Union laborer from the hall $28 and 3.1 Sr for 20 years gets $27.  The example of the current process of he who bids the lowest wins.  Fully qualified in house Sr.$44/hr.  How does the management think their guys are worth so much and we are worth so little.

Try not to be offended.  The market for road RPs is $27-34 per hour these days.

Not a reflection of your worth, or of low regard the plant might seem to have for your services.  Just simple economics at work.  Demand is dwindling, supply is no real problem.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retired nuke on Sep 13, 2010, 09:41
I am working at a Nuclear plant on a 9 month assignment.  House decon gets $25/hr,  Union laborer from the hall $28 and 3.1 Sr for 20 years gets $27.  The example of the current process of he who bids the lowest wins.  Fully qualified in house Sr.$44/hr.  How does the management think their guys are worth so much and we are worth so little.

Training
Responsibility
Plant knowledge
Procedure compliance

 8)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Sep 13, 2010, 11:04
Demand is dwindling, supply is no real problem.

I dissagree.

23-25 outages this fall, and  (drum roll please) 45 outages next spring.

BAM!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smart People on Sep 14, 2010, 08:20
the answer to your question is no Camella. i don't think that working (on the road) techs always vote their conscience. its hard for someone in a permanent position to understand the pressure the contract companies can put on workers when their jobs only last 45 days perhaps and then they have to go back to those same few companies for their next job. why else would someone ask for the unions help (IE sign an authorization card) and then when it came time to vote, not vote in the affirmative...IE what happened at vogtle farley and hatch a while back. do you really believe that the contract companies don't exert influence/pressure over their employees?


I would say the opposite is true. many workers will fill out a authorization card mainly due to influence brought on by coworkers and union reps. When the actual vote comes up and they can vote their conscience without anyone looking over their shoulder, they do so.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: nukems on Sep 14, 2010, 08:42
WE ALL NEED TO GET ON THE BAND WAGON. ALL JR. SR. TECHS, DECONNERS AND ALARA IF YOU HAVE NOT JOINED THE UNION PLEASE DO SO. ALL OF YOU THAT WILL BE WORKING FOR ATLANTIC THIS FALL; WE ARE HAVING A UNION VOTE AT THE PLANTS. ANYONE WHO HAS WORKED THREE OUTAGES IN THE LAST TWO YEARS WILL BE ABLE TO VOTE. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE NOT WORKING FOR ATLANTIC THIS FALL YOU CAN STILL VOTE. WE ARE HAVING A NATIONAL MAILING TO YOUR HOME OF RECORD ON FILE WITH NPUA. WHEN YOU RECEIVE YOUR BALLOT VOTE YES AND SEND THEM BACK AT ONCE. IF YOU HAVE NOT SIGNED A UNION CARD OR A CARD ASKING FOR UNION REPRESENTION PLEASE DO SO.WE NEED YOUR ADDRESS TO SEND THE BALLOT. YOU CAN FIND BOTH CARDS ON THE NPUA SITE.

CRYSTAL RIVER IS JUST THE START. LET'S ALL GET OUT THERE AND VOTE!! AND GET YOUR FELLOW TECHS, DECONERS, AND ALARA TO THE SAME.
WITH HARD WORK AND DETERMINATION WE CAN ACHIEVE THE GOAL OF BE COMING A UNION WORK FORCE AND ACHIEVE HIGHER WAGES WITH BENIFITS. IT WOULD BE NICE TO BE ABLE TO RETIRE SOME DAY.
THANK YOU KEVIN FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK.
SIGN CARDS AND VOTE !!!!!!!!  I KNOW I AM SHOUTING !!!!!

WALLY HENDRIES
NPUA
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Marlin on Sep 14, 2010, 09:03
 I KNOW I AM SHOUTING !!!!!

WALLY HENDRIES
NPUA


 -K Please don't it's against forum rules and very rude.  -K

 [DH]
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smart People on Sep 14, 2010, 09:15
Wally... put... the ... all caps megaphone... down!!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 14, 2010, 10:49
I KNOW I AM SHOUTING !!!!!

WALLY HENDRIES
NPUA


I would be more open to listening to someone that first wasn't shouting, and second, at least made an effort to follow the simple rules. If you can't follow these forum rules what other rules do you not care about? Just not the type of person I want representing me!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Sep 14, 2010, 11:16
the answer to your question is no Camella. i don't think that working (on the road) techs always vote their conscience. its hard for someone in a permanent position to understand the pressure the contract companies can put on workers when their jobs only last 45 days perhaps and then they have to go back to those same few companies for their next job. why else would someone ask for the unions help (IE sign an authorization card) and then when it came time to vote, not vote in the affirmative...IE what happened at vogtle farley and hatch a while back. do you really believe that the contract companies don't exert influence/pressure over their employees?

Frank; did you ever stop and think that perhaps the often rude, overbearing and bordering on bulling behavior by major NPUA players had anything to do with some changing their minds?

Funny story... my daughter was getting married and I went to a local florist who I had always used. Her workers were beyond rude and well being a strong minded woman I took my business elsewhere even though I thought her designs were the best.... because as I told my motherinlaw "it's my money and my husband works hard for it".

In other words some people can be put off by the least little thing and we do have the ability to change our minds. In my humble opinion every time you or others bring up the fact that some voted against you or changed their minds you are bulling them, plain and simple.

Get over it and look to the future  :)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: biloxoi blues on Sep 14, 2010, 11:35
Should of asked your husband what he thought about the florist, since it was his money you were spending, also.  I know you other guys were thinking the same thing,  but were scared to tell the truth.   I wonder why no woman will ever marry me?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: smallwave on Sep 14, 2010, 12:19
What do flowers and getting married have to do with this subject toooo much BS
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Fluffy Bunny on Sep 14, 2010, 02:48
What do flowers and getting married have to do with this subject toooo much BS

Good point, but then who died and made you coach?  You beat the Buffalo Bills 15-10 and all a sudden, you are telling everyone how to play the game.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MeterSwangin on Sep 14, 2010, 08:22
Wrong.  It definitely is a reflection of a persons "worth" as an employee. If a tech accepts work at $27 per hour then that is exactly what they are worth to an employer.  If a tech thinks he or she is worth more, accept nothing less. 

Detroit is full of unionists who clung to this same "worth" paradigm too long.  Find the lucky ones now flipping burgers.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Sep 14, 2010, 11:19
Should of asked your husband what he thought about the florist, since it was his money you were spending, also.  I know you other guys were thinking the same thing,  but were scared to tell the truth.   I wonder why no woman will ever marry me?

You have got to be kidding right?  :o  What century are you living in?  ROFL On topic, I was attempting to show that no matter how good something looks or sounds people can be turned off by the wrong attitude.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Sep 15, 2010, 10:55
Camella,
You seem to be talking to the one person who is least likely to get your point.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: BigMo on Sep 15, 2010, 01:11
It could do us bad depending on the process to do contract negotiations. The Utilities will go with the lowest bid/contract they can get. Even if there is representation doesn't mean they have to use the folks that have requested the representation. They can hire a bunch of Jr. qualified people, including within their existing organization as temporaries (secretaries, internal labor support, management personnel), and have their house Sr. techs oversee them. I have seen them do this many many times over the last 36 years Ive been in this mess. Or.....south of the border folks come in on a much lower wage (like they have been doing with Bartlett Mexico) and take the contract and be happy. They are just dying to get our jobs in this market.
A simple scaled wage for the various job descriptions, including Supervision and Engineering, and taking time/loyalty in the industry into account, with a minimum of $5/hr increase across all the scales would be a start. Pay per diem at least CLOSE to the Conus rate cause the cost of living sure as hell isn't going down any. And if a reasonable claim is made, pay full travel without cap. Expecting too much or making demands too high will get you nothing but the Utilities finding ways to eliminate our positions and work leaner. Its happened before and will happen again. They can do temporary hiring through their own organization, eliminate the middle man entirely, pay what they want, and get the people they need. If you haven't noticed, people are out of money and about to lose their possesions, and will take work no matter what.....
Have you seen any outages that came to a halt because they couldnt fully staff???!!! Hell no, if they dont get what they want, it doesnt matter, the outage goes on without. Its all about the big picture.....OUTAGE BUDGET.....you can boycott, whine, or whatever, but bottom line, they will get around it and get the unit back on line.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 15, 2010, 01:51
I am willing to risk it.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 15, 2010, 02:08
It could do us bad depending on the process to do contract negotiations. The Utilities will go with the lowest bid/contract they can get. Even if there is representation doesn't mean they have to use the folks that have requested the representation. They can hire a bunch of Jr. qualified people, including within their existing organization as temporaries (secretaries, internal labor support, management personnel), and have their house Sr. techs oversee them. I have seen them do this many many times over the last 36 years Ive been in this mess. Or.....south of the border folks come in on a much lower wage (like they have been doing with Bartlett Mexico) and take the contract and be happy. They are just dying to get our jobs in this market.
A simple scaled wage for the various job descriptions, including Supervision and Engineering, and taking time/loyalty in the industry into account, with a minimum of $5/hr increase across all the scales would be a start. Pay per diem at least CLOSE to the Conus rate cause the cost of living sure as hell isn't going down any. And if a reasonable claim is made, pay full travel without cap. Expecting too much or making demands too high will get you nothing but the Utilities finding ways to eliminate our positions and work leaner. Its happened before and will happen again. They can do temporary hiring through their own organization, eliminate the middle man entirely, pay what they want, and get the people they need. If you haven't noticed, people are out of money and about to lose their possesions, and will take work no matter what.....
Have you seen any outages that came to a halt because they couldnt fully staff???!!! Hell no, if they dont get what they want, it doesnt matter, the outage goes on without. Its all about the big picture.....OUTAGE BUDGET.....you can boycott, whine, or whatever, but bottom line, they will get around it and get the unit back on line.

You said a mouthfull of the truth there Big! I guarantee that the outages will come and go even if they can only get a handful of folks to come in and work. I have worked outages that were 30 techs short and it isn't fun,  but it happens pretty regular now. If they can't reach the numbers they want, then they just change the numbers to what they get.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 15, 2010, 03:36
National Labor Relations Act Section 7 protects your right to form, join or assist in forming a union at your workplace.  The NLRB insures your  legal right to a free choice and prohibits your employer from discriminating against you as a result of your union activity. I think Big Blue learned this the hard way last time around.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: JsonD13 on Sep 15, 2010, 03:59
I think the problem is that the NPUA isnt going after ALL the contract companies.  If they did that, it might be harder to undercut a union.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 15, 2010, 04:08
They are following the legal process.  Big Blue is next.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: cairnit on Sep 15, 2010, 04:20
The RP contract companies who are providing services to Commercial Nuclear Power plants = 2.
So they are going after 50% right now.
Aerotek and I3 Solutions are paying union scale. No need to go after them, they are working with NPUA (check the web site).

You can get jobs as juniors without experience if the plants change their procedures, but there will be a shortage of Sr. qualified techs to take responsibility for their work.

If the Sr. Techs agree to NPUA representation, where are the techs going to come from to work at these plants, haven't seen many techs who work for the lowest wage on purpose. Don't forget that most union plants have a clause that states if there is a UNION company to provide the service then they have to hire UNION before bring in a NON- Union company......we have never had a Union to belong to, we have only been allowed to work at those few hard core union sites because our companies have been paying the dues for us.

Essentially being union workers without the benefits.

Time to STEP UP.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: BigMo on Sep 15, 2010, 05:18
So ya dont believe me huh?? Check the 16th job down the list on the NPUA site for Turkey Point. 10 slots, temporary hire-in's for the plant, for outages and other work....THIS is how they get around it, and so will others. They DONT have to hire union, they CAN set the price as they want, and they CAN get around the middle man easily. They will throw a few extra dollars over the Big Blue rate to entice, and off they go.....I agree with the concept and the need for better wages and all, but the Utilities are big and powerful. They are BUDGET minded and will take the bottom of the barrel if need be to get by and get the work done. They dont care a crap about us....and most of them bolstered their inhouse Sr. HP staff several years ago, or are doing it currently.....why you think they are doing that?????? To eliminate contract positions in the future. Believe what you want. Been there and dont that WAY too long.......
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: RDTroja on Sep 15, 2010, 05:32
I am not disagreeing with you, but the Temp employees at Turkey Point are not normal outage technician positions. They are being hired because there are two power uprate projects going on and there is a lot more RP work than normal, even outside the outages. FPL is not hiring very many permanent positions right now (for several reasons) and this is their way of getting the people they need without having to keep long term contractors around -- partly because the union has a problem with that. They are (or at least were) also considering hiring a Temp RP Shift Supervisor position to supervise the Temp technicians.

There are a lot of good reasons for a union and some bad ones, too. I am not passing judgement here, just trying to add a little clarity.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: AARPSHP on Sep 15, 2010, 05:51
I do not post often but as a member of the older group now I think it is time to say something.  It does seem like progress is being made.  I have been a house tech and a contractor.  I like contractor better because I have control over when and where I work.  Yes I would like to make more money.  As we progress in this union stuff we must remember that we are professionals.  We must communicate both verbally and written as professionals.  We have to set a positive example for both the utilities and the companies we work for.  I have worked for both major companies I have positive and negative things to say about both.  I enjoy my job as a contract HP because I get to work with lots off really great people.  When I need help someone is there to help.  That does not always happen in the utility end.  So lets keep moving forward and hear some more good news down the road.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 15, 2010, 06:41
Bigmo plants are not hiring to eliminate us,  They are hiring to meet new 10 cfr 26 fatigue rules. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Sep 15, 2010, 06:52
There is no reason to fear this.  People will get work if they want work.  All that will change is that some of the places where you work will change.
Union representation among the techs will shake out to whatever percentage is determined by the tech population.  If you want to work union, you will work where the union contractors have work for you.  If you don't want to work union, you'll work at the other sites.
If a site can't be staffed by a non-union contractor, the work will go to the union shop.  If you are non-union, and not getting enough work, you can join the union.  For a while, you will be able to bounce back and forth, but eventually the union will kick you out if you work non-union.
In any case, if 75% of the techs want to be union members, then 75% of the work will be union work.  If only 10% join up, then they will have 10% of the work.
It all works out.  Everyone will work, and most will be happy with their choice.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: BigMo on Sep 15, 2010, 07:26
I agree with that Troja, and I understand the way TP does business, I have worked there as RP Supervisor for the past five years or so....but a Utility can get it done in many ways. I also agree with BeerCrt, that work will be around just depends on what you want. I am like AARP said, house several times, road lots of years, worked just about every company that has ever been in business since 1976 all the way back to Rad Services. I agree with the union concept, cause we (techs) have never got together and agreed in solidarity ever that I know of. Lost a good job once many moons ago when me and the boys walked, and others claimed to be with us and went to work while we got run off....maybe it will get the wages fair and the travel/per diem where the hell it should be. I too like to work at my whim and choosing so i remain a roadwhore. But I hope care is taken with this, and greed doesnt blow it all, just saying.....
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Incline on Sep 15, 2010, 07:36
 Some of plants are hiring in Ops to meet the new fatigue rule. As far as hiring in other areas including Ops, it is to pass on the knowledge of the more experienced workers to the younger folks. You can proceduralize it for the newer ones, but you can't proceduralize the finesse some jobs take to get it done right. Believe it or not but about 50% of the current workforce (in-house) is eligible for retirement in the next 5 years and it seems like 80% of the contract workforce retired 5 years ago. :) At least that is the story at my plant.
 I believe resource sharing is going to eliminate some contract positions if the utilities ever figure out a way to get there fuel cycles in line with each other instead of on top of each other, but it is nothing to worry about anytime soon.
 
 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Sep 20, 2010, 12:19
The NLRB in Atlanta ruled in favor of the NPUA in regards to the recent core tech representation election at Vogtle/Farley/Hatch. As a result the election results were overturned and Bartlett received an unfair labor charge from the NLRB.

When do they get their $35/hr?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 20, 2010, 04:36
When they all have to leave Southern Company because they gave the contract to some fly-by-night operation that underbid Bartlett and took the contract from them. Than the folks there can go somewhere else and make it. Maybe they can go back on the road and work DOE, I hear they are paying that much.

By saying overturned does that mean that they have to revote or does that mean that they have to take representation whether thay want it or not. If the answer is revote, then what will happen if the new vote is still NO.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Sep 20, 2010, 04:57
...then what will happen if the new vote is still NO.

By god, we'll keep re-voting until we get the answer we want!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 20, 2010, 05:06
By god, we'll keep re-voting until we get the answer we want!

Maybe after 10 or 15 years of voting the guys there will forget what they are voting for and just all say yes. Who knows maybe some of their grandkids could vote there too in a few years. Could be the beginning of the end for core techs at Southern Companies.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: longbow55 on Sep 20, 2010, 06:16
Henry you are using reason where that is not wanted or welcome. Has everybody forgotten what happened in 1990? The utility simply cancelled the contract of the company with the union issues and brought in a new company that had no affiliation or connection with the union. Utilities did not become as large as Southern Co. and not know how to deal with these things. People wake up, you are subcontractors. I was one for many years and am all for everybody making as much money as they can. Or having all the benefits they need. But believe me you are not going to force the utilities to pay you more. You have to use your brain and make yourself more valuable, not a liability or problem. I don't believe Southern will disband the core tech group. They like not paying per-diem when they don't have to. Per-diem is the one thing most companies hate the most, imo. 

On another note some of the so called Union backers on this site have not made any friends in the industry, including their coworkers. I have worked with some of you and do not want to work with you again, enough said.

I always thought the beauty of being a contractor was I could leave if the situation became unbearable. I was independent and decided my own destiny. With that comes responsibility and ownership. I am wise enough to not buy the snake oil. No one owes us anything, that is an emotion we left behind with our teenage years.     
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 20, 2010, 07:46
Henry you are using reason where that is not wanted or welcome. Has everybody forgotten what happened in 1990?


I don't know how you can say that it is not wanted or welcome. But if it isn't wanted then maybe a moderator will delete it because I am not going to!
 I am just telling the truth as I see it right now. If any company feels like they are being forced into something that they don't want they will cut you loose and won't even bat an eye! Hence No More Core. These people went there as core techs for a certain amount of money and benefits. Now you can't just decide in the middle of the contract that you want more and expect to get it. Sure Southern Company might just say " Sure we will give it to you so you can pay the Techs more" and they may not. They could say since you agreed to come here for what we are paying you:" then Take it or leave it.. Remember they are in a "Right to work state". Bartlett is just the middle man and all they can do is ask the utilities for more money and hope they get it. So I am saying if you don't like it, if they say no, then quit and find yourself another job. I remember the 1990 strike because I was right in the middle of it with my family and it cost me money. They didn't go at it right then and in my opinion the NPUA isn't either. If they want to organize then go after contracts that haven't been signed yet. Go after Atlantic and Bartlett or whoever you want to. I think they should try to get an agreement set up that goes into effect when this contract is renewed. And then let the folks decide if they want to make what the offer is.

I know most of the core techs at all three sites and I want all to know that I am all for unionization, but only if it is done right. I have been a shop steward so I know a little about the way unions work. I hope everyone gets what they want and wants what they get but we all know that isnt going to happen.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: longbow55 on Sep 20, 2010, 07:58
Henry,

     Sorry I didn't make myself real clear but I agree with everything you are saying. You make a lot of sense. What I meant was that the others don't want to hear reason. Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HydroDave63 on Sep 20, 2010, 08:39
Or.....south of the border folks come in on a much lower wage (like they have been doing with Bartlett Mexico) and take the contract and be happy. They are just dying to get our jobs in this market.

Or, on the other hand....if NPUA or some other agency has 400 signed cards wanting representation, and companies X, Y and Z lobby their pet Congresscritter that they need more H1-B visas for foreign techs because they can't find enough techs (at the lowest accepted wage), organized labor will hold real prima facie evidence to rebut that argument. As it stands now....well, we all have our own opinions and facts, don't we? ;)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Sep 21, 2010, 08:48
The NLRB in Atlanta ruled in favor of the NPUA in regards to the recent core tech representation election at Vogtle/Farley/Hatch. As a result the election results were overturned and Bartlett received an unfair labor charge from the NLRB.

While the NLRB ordered a re-vote due to the timing of Bartlett’s announcement about previously approved wage increases, the NLRB agreed that the actual wage increases were “not objectionable.”  In fact, the Board stated that “it is therefore clear that the enhanced wages and benefits are the fruit of the Employer’s extended negotiations with Southern Nuclear, negotiations which pre-date and were unrelated to the Union’s campaign.”  The union had nothing to do with it.  Which once again shows how the propaganda machine rolls and spreads the half truths and falsehoods such as the following statement pulled off their propaganda site…

“…Let me be clear, neither DZ Atlantic nor Bartlett have been willing to negotiate higher wages without involviing the NLRB….best regards NPUA leadership”

Now they want you to believe that we, as a contractor, don’t champion higher wages for the work force, that we, in their words, “low ball” contracts.  There could be nothing further from the truth.   I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we don’t decide how much we can pay, the market does.  Our mark-ups are such that we make next to nothing on a single technician, there is no wiggle room.  We make money by staffing whole outages, and it isn’t a whole hell of a lot of money after the dust from overhead settles.  We want to pay as much as we can, more often more than our clients approve.   

It’s a simple equation…The more we can pay, the more likely you the technician can make a living and stay in the business.  The more we can pay the more it attracts new blood into the business.  The more people in the business the better chances we have of staffing our contracts.  Now for the icing, the more we can pay, the more we can bill – who would have thunk?   So ask yourselves, why, for what perverse reason would we not want to renegotiate to increase wages with all of our clients?  Why would we not want to pay as much as we possibly can?  There is no legitimate reason, so the propaganda machine churns out falsehoods and half truths.  They promise if you side with them you’ll get $35/hr…guess what, not unless they can reach an agreed upon CBA and the client agrees. 

Have any of you that have questioned what this union will do for you been treated like a person or were you just yelled at, demeaned, and pushed aside as if your thoughts, opinions and concerns don’t matter.  Do you realize this union has no benefits, has no strike fund, and cannot legitimately promise you what they have been promising.  I of all people know how this industry has changed, how it’s gotten tighter and harder to earn a living. I’ve worked it for 21 years now.  I’ve seen it change first hand.   Do you really think it will be easier if they should take over – think about it.  Do you honestly think it will be better for all, or just the self appointed officers of the union that stand to make upwards of 140K or more.   Bring them in and you can add another layer to the equation, a bureaucracy that will tell you where you have to go to work and when or lose your standing in line.   

Right now y’all have a choice.  Right now you can apply for any site you want.  Decline any job you don’t want.  Work for any vendor you want.   Let them into your life and that won’t be the case anymore.  While you are being told where and when you have to go to work, or risk falling to the bottom of the list, the self appointed officers will be kicking back making 140+k per year.  Of course that’s not what they want to advertise.  $35/hr and a chicken in every pot!  Not unless they can reach a CBA and the client agrees.   Amazing isn’t it?  That they don’t tell you that part is no wonder, after all why tell you the truth when they don’t have to whereas I am bound by labor laws to tell you the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Anyways, believe what you will.  Their lies and half truths or the facts as I present them, it’s your choice, your prerogative.  As always I will stand up to the falsehoods, half-truths and propaganda that anyone throws our way.  Take it or leave it, it’s your CHOICE.  The operative word here is CHOICE.  Keep your right to choose or give it away, you decide.  Do some research, read up on this group and see how much it will cost you for no legitimate guarantee in return.  All I ask is that y’all think long and hard before you make a decision.  It’s a lot easier to vote them in than it is to vote them out. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smart People on Sep 21, 2010, 09:12
Have any of you that have questioned what this union will do for you been treated like a person or were you just yelled at, demeaned, and pushed aside as if your thoughts, opinions and concerns don’t matter. 

Quote from: fsennyes on Aug 03, 2010, 09:54
That was the point I was trying to make to the Kool-Aid drinker...

I know…I’m actually a supporter a person getting a fair wage. The tech companies get more than their fair share which is why I’m a bit curious about some of the responses here. In fact, the obvious tech company suck ups really surprises me. It’s a far cry from the Chuck Pierce NUMANCO days…
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Sep 21, 2010, 09:31
And why did I get sucked back into this topic again?

Well, I'm siding with Bartlett after giving it much thought. Bartlett makes more sense especially the comment about telling techs what to do. None of the Techs I've been involved with enjoy that part of it. Free agency has always been the biggest benefit of being a road tech. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hamsamich on Sep 21, 2010, 01:12
I don't care how much the union leadership makes if I can actually get 35 an hour.  I've been to the Bartlett headquarters and seen the "overhead".  Pretty nice.  Anyway, 22/85 was just too low for me.  I agree with some of what Eric is saying but I'd rather take a chance to get a much better wage.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smart People on Sep 21, 2010, 01:23
I think I need to make an apology.

I have to admit a certain amount of confusion between the forum members Frankie Love/fsennyes and fschip.

The point I was hoping to make with my post above was that the NPUA vice president was doing exactly as Eric had mentioned in his post as to how those who disagree are treated on the thread.

So, reading Frankie Love's next post had me wondering where his "sarcasm alert" icon was.

Doing some research has shown me that Fankie Love and fschip are not the same people.

Where fschip is the admitted vice president of the NPUA

Frankie Love is not a representative of the NPUA as far as I can tell and is just another co-worker and contributer to the debate.

So to Frankie Love, for confusing you with fschip and making the post above, I'm sorry.

And to fschip, for insinuating that you had ridiculed members of this debate without cause, my apologies to you as well.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: DJ@Retired on Sep 21, 2010, 02:00
I heard that the union company is having problems paying there Techs. Just a rumor.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Sep 21, 2010, 02:02
I've been getting that a lot lately. I am the guy who goes by Frankie Love and am not related to fschip. I'm the guy that started in 79 at DC Cook not the fschip that is a union guy. Besides, fschip does not make my BF list. Smart People now does. ;D
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Sep 21, 2010, 02:14
I heard that the union company is having problems paying there Techs. Just a rumor.

i heard you had 6 heads, and 14 arms...  Just a rumor.

Lets try not to be rumor mongers.  If its facts, say its facts.  If its bullshit, say its bullshit.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Sep 21, 2010, 02:19
I've been getting that a lot lately. I am the guy who goes by Frankie Love and am not related to fschip. I'm the guy that started in 79 at DC Cook not the fschip that is a union guy. Besides, fschip does not make my BF list. Smart People now does. ;D

It stems from you not quoting properly.  I just edited reply #446 for you, to help make it clear that you were not the other guy.

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,18812.msg127548.html#msg127548

Remember to properly quote people, and put your words outside of the quote.  This will help people not get confused.  SmartPeople and Beercourt were both confused, and I have to admit that I had to look a few times to figure it out myself.  These are all experienced forum users and smart people.

Click on the quote button to properly quote them, or use the
Code: [Select]
[quote]Stuff you want to quote.[/quote] commands to free-form quote stuff.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Sep 21, 2010, 02:23
I have to admit a certain amount of confusion between the forum members Frankie Love/fsennyes and fschip.

I was also having trouble keeping them straight from nukems.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 21, 2010, 02:31
I don't care how much the union leadership makes if I can actually get 35 an hour. 

In this case IF is a pretty big word. I am pretty sure that someone just pulled that number out from somewhere. (Somewhere we don't want to talk about now.) The NPUA cannot promise 35 dollars or any other amount until they get through with all of the negotiations and see what the utilities are willing to pay. I really don't want anyone that makes idle promises to represent me. Now if they would just say we hope to get... or we will try to get... or we are doing our best to get... a certain amount then I may listen, but I know enough to know when someone is just blowing smoke...... I hope they are able to get members 50 dollars an hour but until they get a contract with every fly by night operation and the real companies out there, it is still going to be just wishful thinking. The little companies will just underbid the big companies and take the contracts from them, just like the old days when there were bunches of companies.  I hate to say it but wishful thinking won't pay my bills, but working for Bartlett for almost 20 years has paid them rather nicely for me. Would I like to make more? Of course I would, but I said I would work for my present salary, and I will until the contract runs out again.  Ok enough about that take care everyone and be safe!

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Sep 21, 2010, 03:12
It stems from you not quoting properly.  I just edited reply #446 for you, to help make it clear that you were not the other guy.

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,18812.msg127548.html#msg127548

Remember to properly quote people, and put your words outside of the quote.  This will help people not get confused.  SmartPeople and Beercourt were both confused, and I have to admit that I had to look a few times to figure it out myself.  These are all experienced forum users and smart people.

Click on the quote button to properly quote them, or use the
Code: [Select]
commands to free-form quote stuff.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Sep 21, 2010, 03:21
Better?    :D
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hamsamich on Sep 21, 2010, 03:29
I already know people that got 35/hr and better per diem working for the NPUA company.  I thought everybody already knew that had happened?  I just said IF because 35/hr has only been available for a couple of jobs.  I hope it becomes more common place, that is where the IF came it.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: duke99301 on Sep 21, 2010, 05:52
There are jobs that pay 35 an hour plus time and half and Diem is better and you do not have to pay union dues.for someone who will not help you when you have problems. all you have to do is shop for them they are there. A company I worked for last spring payed a very good rate to hp techs to be back up at VC summer.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: DJ@Retired on Sep 21, 2010, 08:37
i heard you had 6 heads, and 14 arms...  Just a rumor.

Lets try not to be rumor mongers.  If its facts, say its facts.  If its bullshit, say its bullshit.
Ok you caught me its a fact. Techs at Duane Aronld had trouble getting paid.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retread on Sep 21, 2010, 09:36
Better?    :D
Better.  In order to have your response in the same post, hit "quote".  You'll see the copied post in words only.  At the end of the post, you'll see the word "quote".  If you put your cursor to the right of "quote" and hit enter, you can put your response there.

For you more experienced members, if there's an easier way, please post it.
I still haven't figured out how to quote only a sentence within a post, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Sorry for being off topic, but wanted to help!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Smart People on Sep 21, 2010, 11:11
I still haven't figured out how to quote only a sentence within a post, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Just delete what you don't want
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Sep 22, 2010, 10:26
I don't care how much the union leadership makes if I can actually get 35 an hour.  I've been to the Bartlett headquarters and seen the "overhead".  Pretty nice.  Anyway, 22/85 was just too low for me.  I agree with some of what Eric is saying but I'd rather take a chance to get a much better wage.

I already know people that got 35/hr and better per diem working for the NPUA company.  I thought everybody already knew that had happened?  I just said IF because 35/hr has only been available for a couple of jobs.  I hope it becomes more common place, that is where the IF came it.

I understand where you are coming from but I feel I do have to explain a couple of things – 1st of all the headquarters are now rented from the previous owner of BNI (Bruce) at a cost lower than most facilities in this area of the country, if the rent were high we wouldn’t be still here in these buildings.  Plus overhead stands for a lot more than just our rent, we have statutory to pay, insurance, and non billable payroll to name a few things that go into it.

Next is the $35/hr.  I know its sounds good, hell I’d love to pay it – as the old saying goes in this business “pay it and they will come” but I can assure you just because they promise it doesn’t mean it will happen.  First they would have iron out a CBA with the vendor and after that the vendor would have to get utility approval, which I might add maybe easy to do on a back-up for a half dozen or a dozen techs, but to get a full crew…I don’t think so.  The reason I state that is because we have tried and it hasn’t happened.  Does this mean we won’t continue to try to get the highest possible wage our clients will allow? No.  Does this mean we will stop trying to educate our clients on the ever changing dynamics of this industry and what we think we need to do as far as increasing compensation? No.  This means we will continue to champion pay and overall compensation changes that will benefit our work force and give them the ability to earn what they feel they should be earning. 

All I ask is to at least do yourself justice by doing the research and taking a close look at THIS group and make an educated decision before rushing blindly like lemmings off the cliff just because they “promise” $35/hr.   


As always,

Eric
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Sep 22, 2010, 11:21
In my previous nuclear life, I attended a number of NRC region meetings. As always, the concern was staffing HP's for the outage. RPM's were concerned as well as the HP vendors about staffing. But, whomever the Corporate utility, the Corp. $$ squeeze will continue. Doesn't matter what the situation, monies will be moved around which supports what Eric is saying. If it's in the utilities best interest to pay, they will pay. Otherwise, not. I'm sure there are reasons dictating those utilities who chose to pay the extra $$. Goes back to what I said before. Free agency is still better. [2cents]
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Sep 22, 2010, 02:17
In this case IF is a pretty big word. I am pretty sure that someone just pulled that number out from somewhere. (Somewhere we don't want to talk about now.) The NPUA cannot promise 35 dollars or any other amount until they get through with all of the negotiations and see what the utilities are willing to pay. I really don't want anyone that makes idle promises to represent me. Now if they would just say we hope to get... or we will try to get... or we are doing our best to get... a certain amount then I may listen, but I know enough to know when someone is just blowing smoke...... I hope they are able to get members 50 dollars an hour but until they get a contract with every fly by night operation and the real companies out there, it is still going to be just wishful thinking. The little companies will just underbid the big companies and take the contracts from them, just like the old days when there were bunches of companies.  I hate to say it but wishful thinking won't pay my bills, but working for Bartlett for almost 20 years has paid them rather nicely for me. Would I like to make more? Of course I would, but I said I would work for my present salary, and I will until the contract runs out again.  Ok enough about that take care everyone and be safe!





Lying in the hospital bed this past week; I was thankful for Bartlett and them paying our bills as well. I was thankful for the insurance that has paid all my bills after deductible (even though it was a high one)... and funny thing as I talked to Henry long distance I wasn't concerned about not having a vacation home or a time share, a bigger better car, more cash in the bank as I couldn't take it with me and well... I just missed my husband and thought about all the days, months and years we had been seperated while he traveled the road.

As far as the NPUA, I believe forcing a second vote at Southern Company is childish, a waste of money and wonder when it will end. I also pondered this... how many techs are there in the United States, or how many people are eliglbe to belong to the NPUA vs how many have signed cards? Statics please?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 22, 2010, 03:05
If Henry made more money maybe he could stay home once in a while.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Sep 22, 2010, 04:52
If Henry made more money maybe he could stay home once in a while.


Perhaps or perhaps he would have spent it on more toys like most of us.... could have, would have, should have.... however I'd like to say you either forgot the fact or didn't know that Henry and I are 30 plus year vets and we've seen big money come and go. Been there and done that. Been through IRS audits because of IRM, been through no work because of last union effort and been through loosing friends and family to the business...

Seems to me that you and others are the ones worried about more money... what would you do with and how much is enough? Instead of being a &*&D and taking nasty shots at me do something to promote your cause (NPUA).  :(  -K -K -K -K -K


BTW, my husband was right where he needed to be with me before and after surgery and for the next 2 days then he took a break and went to work.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 22, 2010, 06:14
I would save for my retirement and maybe stay at my own home once in awhile.  I have one income and I will never be able to retire at this rate.  I do not have a boat , motorcycle, second home or any of that B. S.  I do however have a job in the industry.

BTW your IRS problems were your own.  You should have paid your taxes.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Sep 22, 2010, 06:15


Next is the $35/hr.  I know its sounds good, hell I’d love to pay it – as the old saying goes in this business “pay it and they will come” but I can assure you just because they promise it doesn’t mean it will happen.  First they would have iron out a CBA with the vendor and after that the vendor would have to get utility approval, which I might add maybe easy to do on a back-up for a half dozen or a dozen techs, but to get a full crew…I don’t think so.  The reason I state that is because we have tried and it hasn’t happened.  Does this mean we won’t continue to try to get the highest possible wage our clients will allow? No.  Does this mean we will stop trying to educate our clients on the ever changing dynamics of this industry and what we think we need to do as far as increasing compensation? No.  This means we will continue to champion pay and overall compensation changes that will benefit our work force and give them the ability to earn what they feel they should be earning. 

All I ask is to at least do yourself justice by doing the research and taking a close look at THIS group and make an educated decision before rushing blindly like lemmings off the cliff just because they “promise” $35/hr.   


As always,

Eric
I wish people on hear would stop making up stories (is that called a lie) The FACT is that it isn't just a promise ($35.00/hr) Techs have already worked four different plants at that wage. How can reality be a promise. Yeah it was a back-up, but it takes time to develop a business. Did Bartlett start off with 90% of the business?.....NO. How can you say you are trying to help the tech out there get higher wages when you are the lowest bidder and lowest pay to the tech in the industry in the majority of your contracts? Come on Eric. I have thought of you in the past as pretty straight up, but be honest here.

I expect you to run a business to make a profit, but don't skew things to make yourself look better than the next guy. It compromises your credibility. And that's a hard thing to do after what Bruce used to do to us in the past. You have a tough job to turn that around.
Good Luck to you.




Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 22, 2010, 06:19
Well said MR BIG

Eric a sounds sort of like this


 "A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage" – Herbert Hoover
 That is what Bartlett and Atlantic can do for you.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Sep 22, 2010, 06:48
I would save for my retirement and maybe stay at my own home once in awhile.  I have one income and I will never be able to retire at this rate.  I do not have a boat , motorcycle, second home or any of that B. S.  I do however have a job in the industry.

BTW your IRS problems were your own.  You should have paid your taxes.

Once again your lack of education, experience or research is showing... the tax problems are well noted by anyone working in this industry pre 1985 or so; I.R.M. the big guy on campus back then faced an audit and many of the workers got caught up in the fracus due to the way our per diem was paid and filed.

I do have a job in the industry also.... as the spouse of a 30+ veteran, my livelyhood depends upon him so therefore what affects him concerns me, I am sooooo tired of repeating myself.

Now, if the NPUA could put in writing that they have paid medical leave, paid vacation 2 weeks plus please, 401k and a health insurance plan that would follow up from plant to plant along with life insurance then I might jump on the band wagon.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 22, 2010, 07:05
I have been in the business that long.  I even went to IRM school.   IRM was busted for deeming techs were self employed and the techs for not making their quarterly tax payments on their own or for collecting and not reporting Per Diem that was illegal due to tax laws. You do not even know what the NPUA is offering.  We do not get vacation now, Atlantic does not even pay holidays and I am getting rich off of that $200.00 dollar contribution Bartlett makes to my 401 K.
You cannot jump the bandwagon,  you have to be in the business to vote.

 You are not in the business any more than Michelle is President by being married to one.  
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Old HP on Sep 22, 2010, 07:51
Hey lets lighten up on Camella.  She is just sharing here opinions and experiences in the industry. Some of us have been around the block so many times that we tend to not trust anyone.
Eric has been very up front with some answers and the questions are still the same as they were with the IBEW attempt in 1990.
The big thing to remember as we work at the numerous outages( that are understaffed or inadequately staffed ) is poor planning on the utilities part does not have to force us to accept pushing the envelope of proper job coverage. 

                                               Old HP
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 22, 2010, 08:11
When you make statements like this you picked a fight
" Once again your lack of education, experience or research is showing..."  Camella Black to 25 plus year SR. Tech.

If she cannot run with the Big Dogs she should stay on the porch



 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Nuclear NASCAR on Sep 22, 2010, 08:38
4. Please learn to be respectful, tolerate and support each other.  NukeWorker.com's goal is to help others, not see how many people we can annoy. Do not initiate arguments or tension. This will only cause the triggering of other members and make this site less professional.

I think this is better advice than "She started it!" which is what your last post sounds like.   ;)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 22, 2010, 08:56
This advice goes both ways.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Sep 23, 2010, 12:54
I have been in the business that long.  I even went to IRM school.   IRM was busted for deeming techs were self employed and the techs for not making their quarterly tax payments on their own or for collecting and not reporting Per Diem that was illegal due to tax laws. You do not even know what the NPUA is offering.  We do not get vacation now, Atlantic does not even pay holidays and I am getting rich off of that $200.00 dollar contribution Bartlett makes to my 401 K.
You cannot jump the bandwagon,  you have to be in the business to vote.

 You are not in the business any more than Michelle is President by being married to one.  

BTW I just wanted to say I was serious about the bennies I mentioned....


1. Okay so you have been around the block, good for you then you really should be ashamed and to set the record straight many, many techs got caught up in the IRM tax mess while filing quarterly taxes and with tax accountants at hand.

2. Well Bo why don't you tell me what the NPUA is offerering as the only person I've heard give me a straight answer that wasn't laced with b.s. and sarcasm was Frank through a personal email (thanks Frank).

3. I don't know about you but my husband gets 2 weeks vacation hours a year and that is way more than we've seen in 30 years.
 
4. Right now aside from a few staples and lack of a medical release there is nothing stopping me from returning to this business. I may not have worked in years or that long but I hold both a BA and Associates degree on top of years of special training through both FEMA and the state for Haz/Mat, Emergency Management, Incident Command, etc. I believe I could find a job, thats not the point thought... once again I asked a question and the bullies came out to play.

Oh and BTW, Michelle may not run the White House but I bet if she asked a question every Tom, Dick and Harry oh and Katie would rush to hear her answer; I can also bet that President Obama listens to that sweet little whisper in his ear at times too. Good Night.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Sep 23, 2010, 01:00
When you make statements like this you picked a fight
" Once again your lack of education, experience or research is showing..."  Camilla Black to 25 plus year SR. Tech.

If she cannot run with the Big Dogs she should stay on the porch



 

I did not mean to offend you, this is a common statement in my area which basically says you spoke without having all the facts; your replies on this thread led me to believe this. As far as having 25 years in the business I had already been exposed to the business for a decade before you began so I have seen a lot and heard a lot.

The last sentence is funny, so very funny because I am known to run aren't I Tom? I'm trying to be good, honest.  :) I'm going to the porch now.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 23, 2010, 09:24


Eric
I wish people on hear would stop making up stories (is that called a lie) The FACT is that it isn't just a promise ($35.00/hr) Techs have already worked four different plants at that wage. How can reality be a promise. Yeah it was a back-up, but it takes time to develop a business. Did Bartlett start off with 90% of the business?.....NO. How can you say you are trying to help the tech out there get higher wages when you are the lowest bidder and lowest pay to the tech in the industry in the majority of your contracts? Come on Eric. I have thought of you in the past as pretty straight up, but be honest here.

I expect you to run a business to make a profit, but don't skew things to make yourself look better than the next guy. It compromises your credibility. And that's a hard thing to do after what Bruce used to do to us in the past. You have a tough job to turn that around.
Good Luck to you.


I believe $35.00 per hour is still something made up to make one party look good and another look not so good. The back-up for 4 outages in the two years that I have been hearing about the NPUA is not a very good track record in my opinion. A lot of the NPUA spokespersons talk about it like they are the "Company" that members will be working for. I am pretty sure that NPUA is supposed to be a representative of their members and not the "Company" that they are working for. If they are trying to be a company that bids on contracts with the utilities then just say so and I will submit my resume to you and we will see what happens. However if you are going to be my representative with a real company like Bartlett, then "No Thanks". I have heard too much demeaning and unprofessional chatter for me to want NPUA to represent me.


If she cannot run with the Big Dogs she should stay on the porch


Tech, I am not even going to answer this one even though I want to. I am sure Camella;(Notice the spelling), can run with the big dogs if she takes a mind to. Even though she may not be in the business, I can assure you that she knows the  business as good or better than most that are active in it now. Her Dad, Mother,two brothers, son, sister-in-law, and me, not to mention that she was a JR. RP at Millstone in the 80's have all been in the business. Maybe she can't vote in the NPUA, but I can and I will tell everyone this much;  The way things are being handled now by you folks, then my vote will be "NO".

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 23, 2010, 10:00
I am not on the board of NPUA or do I officially represent them.  I just think it is time for a change.

Bartlett's vacation policy is if you work 50 of 52 weeks you get 1 week of vacation.  However this is excluded from some contracts so if you hit one of those outages those weeks do not count.  Henry must have a special deal. 

Bartlett was recently awarded the EXCEL contracts which were previously Atlantic's and it involved a loss of returnee, safety and long term retention bonuses.  It also was a 10% pay cut from the previous contract.  This would be moving in the wrong direction
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: mostlyharmless on Sep 23, 2010, 10:12
A fine way to represent. All I hear is 35/hr  defensive and demeaning rhetoric. NPUA does seem to represent itself as a business. Not a representation of working folks. This indicates self interests, which is what I suspect is at the heart of all unions, power,control, and put as much into union leadership pockets as possible. Now this does not mean all union members are this way, there are many good union folks, but the union leadership ends up acting like an entrenched govt bureaucracy, interested only in self preservation and enrichment.
There is no such thing as benevolence. No one is looking out for my good. I must either accept the union, with its flaws,reject it or try and change it. But regardless I must look out for myself. I resent the fact that the union leaders set themselves up to make a lot more than the people they represent. This is very telling.
The pressures of the market place will drive up wages. When I started it was 16/50 for seniors,of course this varied on location. What is it now? A good bit more. But no one is going to make a lot of money with short outages. And the utilities are not going to stop looking for ways to save money. Can a union guarantee you more outages? Can a union alter the outage schedules? A lot of industry has left this country. Did the unions prevent this? Look at the state of union run jobs now.How is the auto industry going? How is the education of your children going?
Sound like anti union? Not really, just pro independent thought. Just don't want to get caught up in an organization that is no better than the ones they criticize.
Think for yourself,rely on yourself. Not Bartlett not unions,not the utilities.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 23, 2010, 10:14


Bartlett's vacation policy is if you work 50 of 52 weeks you get 1 week of vacation.  However this is excluded from some contracts so if you hit one of those outages those weeks do not count.  Henry must have a special deal. 


No special deal, but if you work more than one year straight then you are entitled to 2 weeks. I work for Bartlett at Duke-Energy, and have been here for 4+ years now. That is how I get two weeks. Their policies are different at some utilities, so I don't know what it is with excelon. Take care and be safe!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 23, 2010, 10:25
That must be A Duke contract item because of the core techs.  It is not the general policy.  Everyone else is work 50 weeks straight and collect 1 week.  You have to be careful to have hours in all the weeks because if you miss 1 due to illness or death you lose the vacation.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: biloxoi blues on Sep 23, 2010, 03:34
Not sure but, doesn't the 50 weeks have to be in the same calendar year  to get the one week vacation?  I think the vacation was set up for the management (region cordinators) and the people at the bartlett office.  Im sure this includes the core techs also.  I could be wrong again.  This is in reference to the Bartlett vacation.  The vacation time for the traveling road techs is called unemployment.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 23, 2010, 04:15
Not sure but, doesn't the 50 weeks have to be in the same calendar year  to get the one week vacation?  I think the vacation was set up for the management (region cordinators) and the people at the bartlett office.  Im sure this includes the core techs also.  I could be wrong again.  This is in reference to the Bartlett vacation.  The vacation time for the traveling road techs is called unemployment.

At least here it isn't that way. As I understand it,  you have to work 50 out of the first 52 weeks you are here, then you are eligible for 40 hours  pay for vacation. Not the calendar year but the first 52 weeks.  The weeks don't have to be in a row as long as you don't miss more than two. The second year as long as you don't miss more than one week every 6 months then you are entitled to 80 hours. The traveling techs here get treated the same as core techs in this regard.  I am sure if this is wrong someone will correct me, but this is the way I understand it. I don't know how it is other places but I do believe some of them have policies similar to these. Generally traveling Techs don't stay in one place long enough to become eligible, and in that case I guess unemployment is their vacation pay.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hamsamich on Sep 23, 2010, 04:37
35$ an hour and higher per diem is not made up.  What is it with people?  I guess you can think what you want to think but all I can say is WOW.  35/hr is available.  But not all the time.  Hopefully someday it will be (all the time).  We can be part of something that may help it become more of a reality, or we can continue to make stories up.  Now whether or not they had pay problems or got less work, well that is an issue.  I read these forums and scratch my head about certain people.  Can we please get real here?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 23, 2010, 08:08
Oh well, I think I rather make $25- $30 per hour 52 weeks per year, than to make $35 per hour 12-16 weeks per year. It would be nice if every person at every outage made $35, but i just don't see it happening in the very near future. I believe that more people will jump on the bandwagon when you folks prove that you are doing what you say you are. This will of course take time and the we will see if you can get everyone $35 per hour. It is possible that everyone will be making that anyway by then. We all know that supply and demand is what drives the wages up and this fall the demand isn't that much more than the supply. Next spring though is another story because the demand may be two times what the supply is, and then wages will naturally go up anyway.  I guess it will be a "wait and See" time for most.

At the present time which companies do you have  a contract with and do they have any contracts for outages this fall or next spring. I am not talking about back-up contracts but primary contracts. Just wondering for my own info so I can tell if what you are saying about wages is coming true. Also what benefits do they offer if any.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: grantime on Sep 23, 2010, 09:59
By the way what happened to the NPUA contract company- I3? From what I gather they aren't even answering the customers calls or emails.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Jr8black3 on Sep 23, 2010, 11:21
Hate to say this, I think every person can see what is going on,are there alot of techs worth 35.00 an hour or more, yes there are, are there rookie SR. Rps like me that arent Yes,, There are folks worth the money, but there are alot that need to get their wings,,I've been in this business along time but I don't know what all the old timers know, I get the chance to learn anytime I get to learn from one of them, heck it might be a smart ass comment but I learn from them, they don't know it cause I show no care, but I do..

Who cares about me anyway,,just a washed up deconner turned RP..<<No nothing..lol

Were all a family no matter your feelings on this subject.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Sep 23, 2010, 11:36
By the way what happened to the NPUA contract company- I3? From what I gather they aren't even answering the customers calls or emails.

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,25329.0.html
http://www.nukeworker.com/job/job/hp-techs-3.1-and-18.1/12761/
http://www.nukeworker.com/job/employer/i3/2395/
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Jr8black3 on Sep 24, 2010, 12:02
LOL Mike prolly thinks I'm worth 6/30 Typical decon rate when I was good,,, but then again I was never good at it..

guess what I got to do it today, after their 5 tries, I was like hmm breakfast.. So I did it,, first time poof gone,, I guess I never forgot where I came from.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: cairnit on Sep 24, 2010, 12:21
Henry, I worked long term (over 2 yrs) at Browns Ferry for Bartlett. Have worked for them for quite a few years and am used to asking the usual questions when accepting job assignments; what's the hourly pay/per diem/length of assignment/hours worked? Never thought there wouldn't be any vacation or holiday pay, thought it was standard with Bartlett to give some type of vacation pay after working some much time and at least some holiday pay; we didn't even get the plant recognized holidays as paid.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Incline on Sep 24, 2010, 01:23
 I had something similar happen to me a few years ago when I worked for Bartlett. I was at a site for 8 months, laid off for three weeks at christmas, came back to the site and after 4 months had my per diem pulled because i was not at away for 8 continuous weeks. I asked about vacation not long after that and was told that since I was laid off, I did not qualify for vacation. I still think they owe me travel pay, even though i went house.javascript:void(0);

 I am for the road techs going union to get better wages and benefits, but i still think many people are right in that contract companies will lose contracts to low-ball non-union outfits. The only way i can see to prevent it from happening is to negotiate with the utility and the contractor. It's kinda the damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 24, 2010, 05:59
Henry, I worked long term (over 2 yrs) at Browns Ferry for Bartlett. Have worked for them for quite a few years and am used to asking the usual questions when accepting job assignments; what's the hourly pay/per diem/length of assignment/hours worked? Never thought there wouldn't be any vacation or holiday pay, thought it was standard with Bartlett to give some type of vacation pay after working some much time and at least some holiday pay; we didn't even get the plant recognized holidays as paid.

I am sure it depends on the contract at the place you are working. Vacation and holidays are bid in the contracts, or that is what I was led to believe. So you may get it one place and not at another. I don't know since I have nothing to do with Bids, I am just a lowly RP Tech struggling to make a living.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Sep 24, 2010, 10:25
Henry,
         You are fortunate to have 7 reactors and DOE work all so close to your home.  A lot of technicians have to travel hundreds or thousands of miles from their families to be able to work year round.  It is not financially worth it to totally relocate for a less than 5 year assignment especially with no relocation package.  I am working year round but have changed sites and utilities to do so.  Therefore no vacation pay and I have been at my own home 6 days in the last 12 months. We all do not have the option to stay long term and change sites to maintain Per Diem.  Lets face it the days of the long term contractor are gone at most utilities.  The changes to the unemployment laws have not helped either.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Sep 24, 2010, 11:02
Henry,
         You are fortunate to have 7 reactors and DOE work all so close to your home.  A lot of technicians have to travel hundreds or thousands of miles from their families to be able to work year round.  It is not financially worth it to totally relocate for a less than 5 year assignment especially with no relocation package.  I am working year round but have changed sites and utilities to do so.  Therefore no vacation pay and I have been at my own home 6 days in the last 12 months. We all do not have the option to stay long term and change sites to maintain Per Diem.  Lets face it the days of the long term contractor are gone at most utilities.  The changes to the unemployment laws have not helped either.

You are correct that I am fortunate to have a bunch of reactors near me. There are roughly 16 reactors near me at least within 4 hours drive. I am thankful that I can stay near home. I have traveled for many years and I know what it does to a family. I will PM you with some info that might affect you. Take care and be safe!  Henry
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Sep 29, 2010, 12:29

Bartlett was recently awarded the EXCEL contracts which were previously Atlantic's and it involved a loss of returnee, safety and long term retention bonuses.  It also was a 10% pay cut from the previous contract.  This would be moving in the wrong direction

Well said, tech.
That's my point Eric. How can you say you are working towards increasing our wages and benefits when it has been proven in the last year of wages going DOWN after you took over from Atlantic? Can you explain that?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: LaFeet on Sep 29, 2010, 05:09
If you search for it you may find it.  I am working at over 35 dollars an hour and have been doing so for some time.  My per diem will expire next year at which time I start drawing the  taxable "Field Pay".

 As for working for Barltett, Atlantic or being a part of the NPUA, I am looking out for myself and hope that my coworkers fair as well as I am.

 And yes -  I am worth way more than 35 $/hr..... and I have the tattoo to prove it

Peace all and good luck
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: cairnit on Oct 11, 2010, 03:21
Saw this post while cruising the NPUA site.......

ALL SR/JR RPs, DECONTAMINATION, ALARA and DOSIMETRY TECHNICIANS

All technicians full or part-time who have worked three (3) or more outages for DZ Atlantic within the two (2) year period between August 29, 2008 and August 29, 2010 are eligible to vote in the election being conducted by the National Labor Relations Board. You can either vote at a DZ Atlantic staffed nuclear power plant (ie. Beaver Valley, Palisades, Palo Verde) or if you are not at one of these sites, you will be able to vote by mail; ballots will be mailed to your home of record. If you do not receive a ballot by 10-27-2010 and you believe you are eligible to vote, then contact the National Labor Relations Board toll free @ 1-866-667-6572.

Your ballots must be returned and received in the National Labor Relations Board office by 16:30 hours on 11-12-2010.

Please return the ballots with a YES vote.

This is the time for all technicians to come together and make a stand to bring our power plant wages up to those currently being received at the DOE sites. With the responsibility we have at the power plants, aren't you tired of being one of the lowest paid craft on site? (Yes, craft is how we are viewed by DZ Atlantic....just look for a job on their web site.)

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Oct 11, 2010, 03:37
This is the time for all technicians to come together and make a stand to bring our power plant wages up to those currently being received at the DOE sites. With the responsibility we have at the power plants, aren't you tired of being one of the lowest paid craft on site? (Yes, craft is how we are viewed by DZ Atlantic....just look for a job on their web site.)

Whats wrong with being a master craftsman?  You seem to imply that you are somehow better than a craft person.  I'm sure that I'm misunderstanding your post.  There is no way you would think that you are better than a craft worker. -- But it sure sounds that way.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Oct 11, 2010, 04:42
The guys here that are laborers and helpers make more than a senior.  Not master craftmen.  I think we are more technical than craft.  We are not better,  but we are not the same.  We have more responsibility.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Oct 11, 2010, 05:47
The guys here ... make more than a senior.  Not master craftmen.  I think we are more technical than craft.  … We have more responsibility.

Just so we are on the same page, “Craft” is more than laborers and helpers.  According to the dictionary, a craft is an occupation requiring special manual skills and abilities. For example the craft of an Asbestos Worker, Boilermaker, Bricklayer, Carpenter, Cement Mason, Electrician, Ironworker, Laborer, Millwright, Operator, Painter, Pipefitter, Plumber, Roofer, Sheet Metal Worker, Sprinkler Fitter, or Teamster.

If a carpenter has a bad day, I could die from a bad scaffold.  If an electrician has a bad day…  But if an RP tech has a bad day?  I might have to spend an extra hour in the shower or body counter.  Do you have any idea how ‘technical’ the job of an electrician is?  Do you have any idea what their level of responsibility is?  You are attacking ALL craft workers.  You are wrong.  You might have more responsibility than a laborer… but you attacking every craft worker that made this country.

You have been in the business since the IRM days, and seen many coworkers get old and die.  You have a lot of experience and knowledge.  You’ve been an active member of this site since we started.  – But seriously, you should re-evaluate your position of superiority versus all craft workers.  It just makes you look ignorant, instead of the wise man you are.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Oct 11, 2010, 06:25
I am not saying I am superior to craft. you are putting words in my mouth. My father was a diesel mechanic, WHO was recognized by for being able to tear down a rebuild a Detroit Diesel faster than any one in The North East in the seventies.  I have always been proud of him and the work he did. IN reference to the bad day part you forgot fired, fined and being Tech A in OE that gets to hang around long after you retire.
I think cairnit is just pointing out that we are the lowest paid at many plants.  Futhermore cairnit's spouse is craft.
Did you miss the sentence where I said we are not better ? I know electrican's and other highly skilled craft have important jobs. Everyones part is important including the person who cleans the locker room to the shift supervisor.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Brett LaVigne on Oct 11, 2010, 08:10
Just so we are on the same page, “Craft” is more than laborers and helpers.  According to the dictionary, a craft is an occupation requiring special manual skills and abilities. For example the craft of an Asbestos Worker, Boilermaker, Bricklayer, Carpenter, Cement Mason, Electrician, Ironworker, Laborer, Millwright, Operator, Painter, Pipefitter, Plumber, Roofer, Sheet Metal Worker, Sprinkler Fitter, or Teamster.

If a carpenter has a bad day, I could die from a bad scaffold.  If an electrician has a bad day…  But if an RP tech has a bad day?  I might have to spend an extra hour in the shower or body counter.  Do you have any idea how ‘technical’ the job of an electrician is?  Do you have any idea what their level of responsibility is?  You are attacking ALL craft workers.  You are wrong.  You might have more responsibility than a laborer… but you attacking every craft worker that made this country.

You have been in the business since the IRM days, and seen many coworkers get old and die.  You have a lot of experience and knowledge.  You’ve been an active member of this site since we started.  – But seriously, you should re-evaluate your position of superiority versus all craft workers.  It just makes you look ignorant, instead of the wise man you are.

Not splitting hairs here, but if a tech has a bad day at the site I work at, you may be heading for chelation therapy. Likewise, you should not play down the level of responsibility RP's have. Generally we are the "go-to" people on site. Where I work, we are responsible for the RP stuff, RNOC controls, medical first response, basically any emergency first response. We help plan the jobs and then control the jobs. If someone needs to use the restroom, they are directed to RP.
Also keep in mind that the controls I provide fullfill a federal regulation for which I can be held personally responsible for when Joe Blow gets a puncture wound and an additional 75 rem of exposure to take home with him.

We all have responsibilities, that term doesn't have to mean "with life threatening consequences" like you imply. It also means having the answers as a designated point person during an outage. To say that RP's have more responsibilities than the next craft worker would be generally true in my opinion. I guess it's all how you read into what the poster was trying to say. And none of that should come accross as high-brow, they are just the facts. And none of that tells anyone that electricians or carpenters aren't important, just that they gennerally carry less responsibility on site. The responsibilities that they do have are important obviously, but they are also very narrow compared to Rad Protection.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Oct 12, 2010, 07:32
I am not saying I am superior to craft. you are putting words in my mouth. ...
I think cairnit is just pointing out that we are the lowest paid at many plants.  Futhermore cairnit's spouse is craft.
Did you miss the sentence where I said we are not better ? I know electrican's and other highly skilled craft have important jobs. Everyones part is important including the person who cleans the locker room to the shift supervisor.

Sorry for putting words in your mouth.  I'm just telling you how your words came across to me.  That's the thing with these words with no sound or inflection.  Some times its hard to get the exact intent. -- Which is why I tried to get clarification.

Likewise, you should not play down the level of responsibility RP's have.

We all have responsibilities, that term doesn't have to mean "with life threatening consequences" like you imply.

As an ANSI 3.1 RP & DOE RCT myself, I understand the level of responsibility RP's have. It shouldn't be downplayed, but it shouldn't be over played either.  When people start saying they are more responsible than anyone else on site and berate people for being craft, I have to throw the Bullshit flag.  Especially when the 'lowly craft' have "life threatening consequences" responsibilities.

I don't discount OUR responsibilities as RP's.  But I don't talk crap about craft either.  RP's are not super-humans, that are better than CRAFT (i.e. electricians) in any way. RP's should get paid a fair wage, and they do... just not at power plants.  If everyone went to the $35-$38/hr DOE jobs for just one outage season... the wages would be right where you want them to be at the power plants.  -- No messy votes, or negative berating of others required.  -- That's all I'm saying.  -- You can get there without stepping on others.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: cairnit on Oct 12, 2010, 01:32
Just so we are on the same page, “Craft” is more than laborers and helpers.

I believe techtoolong is intelligent enough to understand that there are other craft workers then just laborers and helpers and that those other craft can have a mastercraftsman designation, however the specific point being made was that the laborers and helpers at the power plant this individual is currently working at are making more than 3.1 Contract Sr. Technicians.

RP's should get paid a fair wage, and they do... just not at power plants. 

This was what the original message was talking about that I posted. As I said, I saw the info on the NPUA website about the vote and thought someone interested in voting might be left out of being heard in the vote. Everyone who votes get a choice to vote yes or no. Also in the past on this site when we (RPs) have been refered to as craft workers there were people on the site that stated that me were not craft workers so it was pointed out that the DZ Atlantic website has our jobs listed as craft not technical.

I'm sure the craft workers I work with don't consider the techs performing job coverage as craft workers, and more of the power plants have started requiring specific work attire such as collared shirts and no blue jeans. Haven't heard of the contract craft workers as having that requirement for walking the halls of the plant (not talking about flash protection or fire retardant clothing for performing specfic job functions). I understand the idea of acting and dressing as a professional, but most professionals make higher than a laborers wage.

Many of us did work the DOE sites, but our year was up so we left. We know the shortage will increase the wages, at some point. There are strong feelings about the vote, if you qualify then vote the way you feel. Just don't whine if you don't take advantage of the opportunity to voice your opinion and the vote doesn't go your way (kind of like with the government elections).
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Oct 12, 2010, 02:05
Cairnit,

Thank you for clarifying your post.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Oct 21, 2010, 06:56
The DZ Atlantic national election has begun. This is the first major step for us to receive a living wage from both Dz Atlantic and Bartlett. For those receiving a postal mail ballot, please vote and return them asap in the postal mail. The ballots must be in Minneapolis, Minnesota by November 13th, 2010.

DZ Atlantic Vote
Who is eligible to vote?

All full-time and part-time SR, JR RP techs, decon techs, Alara Techs and Dosimeter Techs employed by DZ Atlantic who have worked 3 or more outages for DZ Atlantic within the 24 month period preceding August 29, 2010

If you believe you are an eligible voter and do not receive a ballot in the mail by
October 12, 2010 communicate immediately with the National Labor Relations Board
Suite 790, 330 South Second Avenue, Minneapolis, Mn 55401
Telephone 612-348-1757 or Toll Free1-866-667-6572



No matter if you want to vote "yes" or "no", you should get your ballot and vote. Just because you don't want the NPUA representing you is not an excuse not to vote.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: tymekeeper on Oct 21, 2010, 10:21
Very good point Henry. Finally, a voice of reason seldom seen in this thread.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Oct 21, 2010, 11:28

To sign a authorization card go to NPUA home page
Select members area drop down menu
Select Join NPUA
Select new authorization card sign up
click on Authorization card,  fill it out and submit

It is that easy 8)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Oct 23, 2010, 09:32
To sign a authorization card go to NPUA home page
Select members area drop down menu
Select Join NPUA
Select new authorization card sign up
click on Authorization card,  fill it out and submit

It is that easy 8)

That's right. But if you bring up the Home page there is a link button at the bottom of the front page that says "Authorization Card" Just click on it and follow the 3 simple steps. No matter if you have signed a card before, everyone needs to fill one out at each outage they go to. It now only takes about 3 minutes to fill out online. Simple. And NO you are not joining the Union by filling out a card.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: roadhp on Oct 24, 2010, 12:03
So what are you doing when you sign an authorization card, except to authorize the union to negotiate for you.  That sounds like joining the union to me, and is slightly similar to card check, in a back door kind of way.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

My next question is if the union is negotiating for wages, then what do we need the contract companies for?  Usually, the company with union people bids to do a job, such as change out a transformer or refuel the plant, but with HP's all they do is provide people to work for and along side the house people, under the direction of the house, for whatever the house decides.  The Business Agent (BA) finds the jobs for the workers and places them according to seniority, so no more talking to Kristie or Roxanne, or if you are Bartlett, Scott, Joey, etc.  As a matter of fact, you would be prohibited from talking to these people except through the BA.  Again, correct me if I am wrong.  Understand, and bear with me, as I haven't been able to read the entire thread.

Another question of mine is how this will affect current union contracts, such as Salem, where it is in their contract with the house techs that the contractors will belong to their union.  Will you have to belong to both?  Pay dues to both?  Follow both contracts?  If there is a conflict, which union wins?

Finally, for this thread, will we have union stewards at each site for NPUA?  How will they be chosen, since the people for the outage change from outage to outage, and what happens if a previously elected or appointed steward isn't selected for that outage?  Will they have the seniority to bump another tech from that outage so a steward will be present?

Again, I haven't read the entire thread, but will continue to try (it is a long thread).  If ony of my questions have been answered in previous posts, please post the link or send it to me.  Thanks.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: azkidd on Oct 24, 2010, 12:05
Am I supposed to fill out an authorization card in order to receive a ballot in the mail for the current labor vote?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: roadhp on Oct 24, 2010, 02:47
Thanks, Marssim, that was helpful.  It didn't answer my questions one bit, but it was helpful in directing me to that website.  I know, I should have looked at it first, but so far in my journey I have only uncovered more questions and some big concerns about this union.

For instance, quoting from the union constitution, it states in Article XIII,

"Assessments

Section 1. From time to time the Executive Board may deem it necessary to levy an assessment on all members of the NPUA to support NPUA activities and/or meet NPUA expenses.

Section 2. All assessments imposed in accordance with the NPUA Constitution and Bylaws must be paid within the time determined by the Executive Board and payment is required to protect the member's continuous good standing and benefits.

Section 3. Members shall not be required to pay assessments for welfare benefits in which they cannot participate."

So an order from the executive board could require me to pay the union should the union spend more than it takes in, regardless of whether or not they have been frugal with our money?  Some might say it is ok because it will only benefit us, but what if the board authorizes something to be paid to promote the union, or train the officers, etc. and then don't have enough left over for the normal expenses that would providee benefits?

Another problem that I have with the constitution is the pay for the officers.  Again I quote:

"ARTICLE XIV – SALARIES AND EXPENSES
Section 1. The salary of the President shall be 145% of the highest wage secured for the members of the NPUA through collective bargaining. The salary will be based on a standard work week of 54 hours. The salary will be paid in biweekly amounts."

I don't know about you, but I don't work 54 hours every week of the year.  I could see the salaries being paid as 145% of the prevailing wage, but this is a little high compared with the standard worker compensation.

Just my thoughts.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: techtoolong on Oct 24, 2010, 10:37
If my pay goes up I do not care what the Union President makes  :) 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: longbow55 on Oct 24, 2010, 04:21

What a great deal. I decide how much my salary is and other people work to pay me. Where do I sign up?

Or do I just run for Congress?

No one is seriously okay with this are they? 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Oct 24, 2010, 09:41
I'd be fine with it as long as he was fairly elected.

Wonder when the election is going to be?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Oct 25, 2010, 07:31
What a great deal. I decide how much my salary is and other people work to pay me. Where do I sign up?

Or do I just run for Congress?

No one is seriously okay with this are they? 

So do you ask every single company President that you have ever worked for what they make?
My guess is ...........NOT.

Let's see, if a person or persons implement something that will increase my income by $20,000 to $30,000 a year, do I really care what that person makes? Myself, I could care less what they make if they were responsible for getting me that extra income. I just increased my income . It didn't cost me a dime. It INCREASED my income. Get it? Anyone with common sense and can add SHOULD be able to figure that out. But then again there are actually people in this world that have a poverty spirit that they live under. And all a poverty spirit is.......is simply WRONG THINKING.

I am seriously OK with that. As Forrest Gump says "stupid is as stupid does". I would hope most RPs & Deconners aren't that stupid. But then again............????
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Oct 25, 2010, 07:35
So what are you doing when you sign an authorization card, except to authorize the union to negotiate for you.  That sounds like joining the union to me, and is slightly similar to card check, in a back door kind of way.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

My next question is if the union is negotiating for wages, then what do we need the contract companies for?  Usually, the company with union people bids to do a job, such as change out a transformer or refuel the plant, but with HP's all they do is provide people to work for and along side the house people, under the direction of the house, for whatever the house decides.  The Business Agent (BA) finds the jobs for the workers and places them according to seniority, so no more talking to Kristie or Roxanne, or if you are Bartlett, Scott, Joey, etc.  As a matter of fact, you would be prohibited from talking to these people except through the BA.  Again, correct me if I am wrong.  Understand, and bear with me, as I haven't been able to read the entire thread.

Another question of mine is how this will affect current union contracts, such as Salem, where it is in their contract with the house techs that the contractors will belong to their union.  Will you have to belong to both?  Pay dues to both?  Follow both contracts?  If there is a conflict, which union wins?

Finally, for this thread, will we have union stewards at each site for NPUA?  How will they be chosen, since the people for the outage change from outage to outage, and what happens if a previously elected or appointed steward isn't selected for that outage?  Will they have the seniority to bump another tech from that outage so a steward will be present?

Again, I haven't read the entire thread, but will continue to try (it is a long thread).  If ony of my questions have been answered in previous posts, please post the link or send it to me.  Thanks.



Go to www.npua.org and register on the Forum. Its free and anonymous. Post your questions there and they will be addressed.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: roadhp on Oct 25, 2010, 08:50
Suggestion, MR BIG, if you want to win an arguement, the first rule is don't call the other person stupid.  I know you didn't directly call me stupid, but since I was thinking the same thing... 

It isn't free if we have to pay for it, and we do.  It isn't a company.  It isn't ok with me if several people are making twice the money I am making living off my dues and the dues of less than 2000 others.  I could see it if they were in charge of the IBEW, but you are talking about a union the size of most locals. 

I may join the forum at NPUA, or I may not.  I posed the questions here since here is where I already am registered.  I have had companies ask if I wanted to work at a place just so they could show the client they had enough people.  I'm not saying this is the case, but until I get some answers to my questions this union is a lost cause in my mind.  Just my opinion, and subject to change.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: longbow55 on Oct 25, 2010, 09:39
So do you ask every single company President that you have ever worked for what they make?
My guess is ...........NOT.

Let's see, if a person or persons implement something that will increase my income by $20,000 to $30,000 a year, do I really care what that person makes? Myself, I could care less what they make if they were responsible for getting me that extra income. I just increased my income . It didn't cost me a dime. It INCREASED my income. Get it? Anyone with common sense and can add SHOULD be able to figure that out. But then again there are actually people in this world that have a poverty spirit that they live under. And all a poverty spirit is.......is simply WRONG THINKING.

I am seriously OK with that. As Forrest Gump says "stupid is as stupid does". I would hope most RPs & Deconners aren't that stupid. But then again............????


So you think I'm stupid do you???????? You must have talked to my wife at some point!  8)   :->

Seriously, this post does not warrant any reply except sarcasm. Good luck in your endeavors.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Oct 25, 2010, 03:05
So do you ask every single company President that you have ever worked for what they make?
My guess is ...........NOT.

Let's see, if a person or persons implement something that will increase my income by $20,000 to $30,000 a year, do I really care what that person makes? Myself, I could care less what they make if they were responsible for getting me that extra income. I just increased my income . It didn't cost me a dime. It INCREASED my income. Get it? Anyone with common sense and can add SHOULD be able to figure that out. But then again there are actually people in this world that have a poverty spirit that they live under. And all a poverty spirit is.......is simply WRONG THINKING.

I am seriously OK with that. As Forrest Gump says "stupid is as stupid does". I would hope most RPs & Deconners aren't that stupid. But then again............????


This same type of attitude towards what Presidents/CEO's/CFO's etc make is what helped lead this country down a scary road which included bank going under, car companies borrowing money from the government, etc.

As far as I am concerned, all union members SHOULD be aware and concerned over whatever is going on within their union; to not be fully educated and involved is both irresponsible and naive not to mention stupid.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Oct 25, 2010, 08:07
Suggestion, MR BIG, if you want to win an arguement, the first rule is don't call the other person stupid.  I know you didn't directly call me stupid, but since I was thinking the same thing... 

It isn't free if we have to pay for it, and we do.  It isn't a company.  It isn't ok with me if several people are making twice the money I am making living off my dues and the dues of less than 2000 others.  I could see it if they were in charge of the IBEW, but you are talking about a union the size of most locals. 

I may join the forum at NPUA, or I may not.  I posed the questions here since here is where I already am registered.  I have had companies ask if I wanted to work at a place just so they could show the client they had enough people.  I'm not saying this is the case, but until I get some answers to my questions this union is a lost cause in my mind.  Just my opinion, and subject to change.


No, I WAS NOT calling you stupid. I apologize if you took it that way. I was calling that line of thinking stupid. Meaning.....having an opportunity to increase my income and not take advantage of that.. Sorry again if you took it personal.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: MR BIG on Oct 25, 2010, 08:17

This same type of attitude towards what Presidents/CEO's/CFO's etc make is what helped lead this country down a scary road which included bank going under, car companies borrowing money from the government, etc.

As far as I am concerned, all union members SHOULD be aware and concerned over whatever is going on within their union; to not be fully educated and involved is both irresponsible and naive not to mention stupid.

I agree with what you say here, but this isn't apples to apples. My government isn't INCREASING my income. They are raising prices and keeping my wages down. Shareholder equity is tanking. And your right "get fully educated". I'll wager 90% of the people that post here and have already formed an opinion about how terrible this effort is, have taken very little time, if any, to go to the web site to read through all the information. Or called Kevin with their questions. That is human nature for the most part. Fly off with an opinion before I get ALL the facts. I know.....I have done it numerous times in the past. Again, get educated on it and then you have a much better perspective of reasoning behind it. Good luck to everyone. Aren't we ALL supposed to be in this together? Why is there so much division? Sounds like our government, huh?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Camella Black on Oct 26, 2010, 10:10
I agree with what you say here, but this isn't apples to apples. My government isn't INCREASING my income. They are raising prices and keeping my wages down. Shareholder equity is tanking. And your right "get fully educated". I'll wager 90% of the people that post here and have already formed an opinion about how terrible this effort is, have taken very little time, if any, to go to the web site to read through all the information. Or called Kevin with their questions. That is human nature for the most part. Fly off with an opinion before I get ALL the facts. I know.....I have done it numerous times in the past. Again, get educated on it and then you have a much better perspective of reasoning behind it. Good luck to everyone. Aren't we ALL supposed to be in this together? Why is there so much division? Sounds like our government, huh?

Mr. Big, I agree that we should all get the facts but for some it has been very, very hard. I have corresponded with both Kevin and Frank and all I will say is that Frank gave me the most informative reply. As far as the "90%" of people posting here forming an opinion; I believe that has been caused by the attitude of many of the NPUA supporters.

Yes we are all suppose to be in this together, but sadly I don't believe we ever will.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: tolstoy on Oct 26, 2010, 11:30
I find that when everyone is "supposed to be in it together" you've got a great recipe for protected mediocrity.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Oct 26, 2010, 11:48
Quote
I find that when everyone is "supposed to be in it together" you've got a great recipe for protected mediocrity.

Couldn't have said it better... [pigfly]
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: fschip on Oct 27, 2010, 06:57

This same type of attitude towards what Presidents/CEO's/CFO's etc make is what helped lead this country down a scary road which included bank going under, car companies borrowing money from the government, etc.

As far as I am concerned, all union members SHOULD be aware and concerned over whatever is going on within their union; to not be fully educated and involved is both irresponsible and naive not to mention stupid.






yes they should which is why the compensation for officers is out in the open for everyone to read.,...just curious if you can find the compensation for the president of bartlett nuclear or dz atlantic as easily as the proposed compensation for the npua officers? i say proposed because no officer has drawn or is drawing compensation:):)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Oct 28, 2010, 09:08





yes they should which is why the compensation for officers is out in the open for everyone to read.,...just curious if you can find the compensation for the president of Bartlett nuclear or dz Atlantic as easily as the proposed compensation for the npua officers? i say proposed because no officer has drawn or is drawing compensation:):)

I believe the reason that the NPUA should post the officers salaries and Bartlett doesn't have to is this:
The NPUA is not a "Company" even though that is what most people on here call it. If it is a  legitimate Union then it is an organization that is ran by officers; voted on by the members, paid by the members, and backed by the members, and governed by laws that require everything to be out in the open. I would be willing to bet that if it wasn't a law then their salaries would not be as easy to find either.
Bartlett on the other hand is a "Company" owned by a conglomerate of people and/or investor companies. The employees of most companies have nothing to do with the salaries of the CEO or President or whatever you want to call them. The Board of Directors set those salaries. If you know where to look and what to ask then you can find their salaries also.
What I am saying in a nutshell is: If The NPUA is a company then stop calling it a union, but if it is a Union then stop calling it a Company. The NPUA doesn't bid on contracts with utilities, they agree to terms of  contracts with companies that bid on contracts with utilities.
I hope this makes sense!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: AARPSHP on Oct 29, 2010, 10:25
Who is paying the salaries of the current NPUA officers?

My last few jobs I have got only 60 hour weeks not 72 hour weeks.   Even if you get a increase in pay and get a decrease in hours the numbers do not work out all the time.

Why is Mr Big so crabby all the time?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: nukems on Nov 01, 2010, 02:51
The DZ Atlantic national election has begun. This is the first major step for us to receive a living wage from both Dz Atlantic and Bartlett. For those receiving a postal mail ballot, please vote and return them asap in the postal mail. The ballots must be in Minneapolis, Minnesota by November 13th, 2010.

DZ Atlantic Vote
Who is eligible to vote?

All full-time and part-time SR, JR RP techs, decon techs, Alara Techs and Dosimeter Techs employed by DZ Atlantic who have worked 3 or more outages for DZ Atlantic within the 24 month period preceding August 29, 2010

If you believe you are an eligible voter and do not receive a ballot in the mail by
October 12, 2010 communicate immediately with the National Labor Relations Board
Suite 790, 330 South Second Avenue, Minneapolis, Mn 55401
Telephone 612-348-1757 or Toll Free1-866-667-6572


Get those ballots in the mail
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Nov 03, 2010, 12:40
Well said, tech.
That's my point Eric. How can you say you are working towards increasing our wages and benefits when it has been proven in the last year of wages going DOWN after you took over from Atlantic? Can you explain that?

First off I apologize for such a late reply to this question as I wanted to research the matter thoroughly before I gave an answer.   Now over the past couple of weeks I have been making inquiries to what was being paid prior to Bartlett taking over at the Xcel sites.  I’ve heard a myriad of rates, diem and bonus structures.   From what I can deduce out of the different answers I have received is that yes wages have gone down, diem was increased and the bonus monies have remained the same or even have been increased, but are being paid under different criteria than what was stated above (returnee, safety & long term retention).

As discussed yesterday via private e-mail you hit the nail on the head when you stated it all had something to do with the existing USA Alliance Agreement.   Bartlett has never intentionally "low balled" a bid. That is not in your best interest or Bartlett's.  However, these contracts are competitively bid.   Several factors affect bid pricing and pay rates. The requirements contained in the utility's Request For Proposal (RFP) often reflect the economic climate and the utility's own efforts to control costs; this inevitably affects bid responses and ultimately, pay rates.... On an overall basis, Bartlett has been successful with most utilities in negotiating wage and per diem increases on behalf of our technicians. We intend to continue this policy. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee of success in any particular case. Each instance is a separate negotiation affected by utility specific economic concerns and perceptions.  

That is where Bartlett and the NPUA differ…Bartlett fully admits that we cannot guarantee higher wages as we are at the whim of the current economic climate and our clients perceptions of what is allowable where as the NPUA recklessly states they will guarantee $35/hr on every contract if they get voted in.  Trust me as a recruiter, as a 21 year member of this industry and as a Bartlett I would love to pay $35/hr for 3.1 SHP on each and every contract we have, as would every member of this company’s management team.  

I don’t know how many times I have to state the obvious – the more we pay, the more you make.  The more you make the more likely you will stay in the business.  The more we pay, the more attractive this industry is for new technicians to want to get into it.  The more people getting in and staying in this business the easier it is for Bartlett to staff and meet our contractual commitments.  And finally the more we pay, the more we can bill, which of course means the more we can make.  
 Now for the second part – Bartlett holds the negotiating power with the utility, not the NPUA.  The NPUA does not have a contract with the utility so they can promise $35/hr all they want, it will not guarantee that Bartlett’s clients will let us bill enough to pay that much.  If our client only lets us bill enough to pay $27/hr, guess what, NPUA or not all you are going to get is $27/hr.  The only thing that the NPUA can guarantee is that you will not be able to keep all of the money that you make while earning $27/hr because you will have to pay not only your set dues but also a % of what you have worked so hard to earn.  

Well there is my answer.  Now I have a question for the pro-union side.    Here is the hypothetical situation - John Doe is a card carrying member of the NPUA and lives next to Plant A, a non NPUA, non Union site.  Now Plant B, an NPUA Unionized site is having an outage the same time as Plant A.  If John Doe is offered and subsequently turns down a position at Plant B, the NPUA site, so that he could work Non-Union at his home site how does that affect Johns standing w/in the Union?  Similar situation except both sites are NPUA and Plant B shuts down and staffs 3-4 weeks prior to Plant A and also overlaps Plant A by 3 weeks.  John Doe is offered a slot at Plant B, but he turns it down trying to wait for Plant A.  Since he turned down “Union” work does he go to the bottom of the Union call list, possibly being too far down the list to be offered a slot at Plant A because he turned down a Union gig at Plant B.  

I’ve been asked these types of questions by numerous techs that for some reason think I have some insight as to how this “Union” will treat them in these circumstances so I figured I’d go to the best source I have at available – the Forum on Nukeworker.com (there’s a little plug for you Mike).  I would have gone to the NPUA website itself, but since one can not post on the NPUA website w/out becoming a site member, which I see no reason to ever do especially in light of how the top level Union Officers continuously spread lies and half truths about Bartlett, I have decided to keep the conversation going on nukeworker.com.  

As Always,
Eric

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Nov 03, 2010, 12:49
“NPUA Authorization Card
We have published the NPUA fully electronic online Authorization Card just in time for the national organizing effort with Bartlett. You asked for it and we have delivered. Take the time to complete one this fall so that we can file the petition with the NLRB in January of 2011. We will need at least 400 people to use this form of Authorization Card in order for the NLRB to use it in our petition to get Bartlett to the negotiation table on a national basis.”

The above quote was taken from the NPUA’s Propaganda Site on 11/1/2010 –


What You Need to Know About Union Authorization Cards...

Before you sign up we wanted to make sure you were aware of a few important things that the NPUA has failed to mention in any of its internet postings or other union organizing materials. (1) we have confirmed with the National Labor Relations Board that the NLRB has never authorized an election to be held where the union’s petition was based upon electronic authorization cards; (2) the NPUA is using it sown software to “verify” signatures as opposed to an independent third party vendor which would prevent the possibility of fraud or forgery; and (3) the Board is only at the preliminary stages of even exploring the idea of “electronic” voting methods. 

Get the facts first before you put your name on a card.

A few more comments about the NPUA’s blatant attempt to circumvent the current process of requiring paper documents with signatures which need to be validated by the Board before a vote takes place.  Signing a union authorization card can be LEGALLY BINDING on you before the courts and the NLRB.  As a result, by signing a card, you may be signing away to the Union your right of choice.  You should read the card very carefully and understand the commitment that you make by signing the card.  After you have had an opportunity to learn all the facts about this Union and how it affects you, you may decide you do not want it to represent you.  By signing the authorization card now, however, you may be giving up your right to vote against the Union if you should later change your mind and find out that union representation is not in your best interest.  Unlike paper documents which contain your original signature, you can not just ask for you “electronic” signature back.   How could you get it back?  It has been already memorized in a computer file. 

Union organizers may lead you to believe that they can improve wages, benefits, working conditions, duration of assignments, etc. by getting you to sign a card.  But if the union organizer is honest, he/she will tell you that the NPUA cannot guarantee anything.  The law related to good faith bargaining obligation of a company and a union does not require either party to agree to a proposal, or require the making of a concession.  Therefore, after good faith bargaining takes place, your wages and benefits may be the same as, more than, or less than you have now.

We urge you to think carefully about this matter and not sign a card unless you are willing to accept all of the legal consequences and legal obligations that arise as a result of your signature on the card.

As Always,
Eric
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retread on Nov 03, 2010, 01:15
Question:

If the NPUA were to organize Bartlett, Atlantic and maybe Denuke, wouldn't it follow that all three would bid the contract based on $35 and hour?  If the utilities balked and brought in one of the smaller companies, they couldn't possibly fill all the slots.  Thus, one of the companies mentioned earlier would have a backup contract where they could pay the $35 and hour.  Eric, if as you say, you want to pay $35 an hour, why are you afraid of unionization?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: hamsamich on Nov 03, 2010, 01:32
Nothing personal torwards either NPUA or bartlett, but I just thought the pay was too low.  To the point where I was very strongly considering moving to a different job.  So my opinion is, if Bartlett and Atlantic can't get the pay to go up, why not give the NPUA a chance?  Eric brings up some possibly good points that I don't fully understand, but I was about ready to jump ship anyway from rent-a-teching....  Bartlett people can say what they want, that they have no control over the pay and that it isn't their fault.  OK then, let's get someone in there who will at least TRY to get us more money and takes responsibility for it.  The fact is when the pay is too low, according to Bartlett they have no or limited vehicles to force companies to make the pay go higher, while the NPUA will stand fast and refuse to staff at less than 35$ an hour.  Eric is saying the NPUA is reckless, but when the pay gets too low (and in my opinion 22/85 was just too low), the NPUA will say no!, we need the pay to be at a certain level.  So if that is reckless, it's the kind of reckless I am ready to take on.  I have an itching feeling bartlett has more leverage but is unwilling to risk it's own well-being for under-paid technicians, which to me is a no-brainer and I understand why, although I'm not sure if long-term it was the best decision for Bartlett.  Of course bartlett wants to protect itself first.  But just because it makes sense for bartlett to protect itself doesn't make it my wish to be under-paid.  I don't feel this is about right or wrong, but I would like to be paid what I feel I am worth.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Nov 03, 2010, 03:01
I don’t know much about unions, and I have a few questions.

our petition to get Bartlett to the negotiation table on a national basis
Bartlett holds the negotiating power with the utility, not the NPUA.  The NPUA does not have a contract with the utility…

John Doe is a card carrying member of the NPUA and lives next to Plant A, a non NPUA, non Union site.  Now Plant B, an NPUA Unionized site is having an outage the same time as Plant A. 

If Bartlett negotiates with the NPUA on a national basis, wouldn’t that negate the ‘NPUA plant’ or ‘non-NPUA plant’ thingy?   If they negotiate with Bartlett and not the plants as stated, what makes a plant NPUA or non-NPUA? 

Please be patient with me, because I don’t understand ‘traditional’ unions, let alone such a unique union as the one proposed.

Additionally, would someone be interested in reviewing the 22 pages and 635 replies of this thread and make a summary/FAQ that we could refer to, so that same points and questions are not asked repeatedly?  Any volunteers? (You don’t have to be from Tennessee to be a volunteer.)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Nov 03, 2010, 04:00
I don’t know much about unions, and I have a few questions.

If Bartlett negotiates with the NPUA on a national basis, wouldn’t that negate the ‘NPUA plant’ or ‘non-NPUA plant’ thingy?   If they negotiate with Bartlett and not the plants as stated, what makes a plant NPUA or non-NPUA? 

Please be patient with me, because I don’t understand ‘traditional’ unions, let alone such a unique union as the one proposed.

Additionally, would someone be interested in reviewing the 22 pages and 635 replies of this thread and make a summary/FAQ that we could refer to, so that same points and questions are not asked repeatedly?  Any volunteers? (You don’t have to be from Tennessee to be a volunteer.)


   First let me say that I do know a little about unions because I have been a member of one in the past. That is why I keep asking why everyone pro-union seems to keep treating The NPUA as if it is a company. First let me say that a union can't be a company. Unions negotiate with companies for wages and benefits for their members(not employees).
   I am not the smartest person in the world and I am sure everyone knows that already, but I do know that just because the union says they can get you a set amount of pay doesnt really mean that they can. The Utilities hold all the real bargaining chips and they can pay as much or as little as they want. If Bartlett overbids some other company, then Bartlett won't get the contract. Then the other comany will pay based on their bid, but i bet it won't be $35 dollars per hour.
    If there is one thing that I have learned in the last 30 years is this: If someone needs to work and there is a $22/hr job out there, most will take that job before they let their house and car be foreclosed on, or their children go hungry. The utilities will shut down plants and restart them whether they are fully staffed or not. There are already signs of some of them starting to share resources between other plants.  They can and will work the ones that are there like rented mules if they have to, until the ones there leave.
   I work for Bartlett mostly and I am happy with  my arrangement with them. They pay what we agreed to and they pay ontime. As for me I don't need a union to negotiate for me, especially one that doesn't act like a union. 
   The NPUA officers really need to get their business in order with some of their spokespersons.  Either be a company if thats what you want or be a union. It doesn't matter to me which but you need to be one or the other. Stop promising things that you can't really deliver. Stop "slamming" Bartlett, DZ Atlantic or any other company for trying to make a profit. They are really businesses and in this country businesses are supposed to turn a profit or they go out of business. If enough techs vote no and you can't negotiate with a company then just move on without all the drama.
 I will now get off of my  [soap]. I just wanted to put in my [2cents] worth.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Nov 03, 2010, 05:05
I think more people are moving away from the union thing.

From the NYPost:

Flight attendants at Delta Air Lines Wednesday voted against organizing themselves into a collective bargaining unit, and ended 60 years of unionization at its Northwest Airlines unit, the Association of Flight Attendants said Wednesday.

According to the union, Delta flight attendants voted 9,544 against AFA representation, versus 8,778 in favor. Shares of Delta, which have been down a fraction most of the day, reversed direction and added 5 cents to $13.91.

Delta, which is largely nonunion, merged with unionized Northwest Airlines in 2008.

Flight attendants at Continental Airlines and United Airlines -- now units of United Continental Holdings -- as well as at American Airlines and US Airways are currently in contract negotiations.

For more on this story, please go to MarketWatch.

60 years of Union...hmmm...something to think about. Got a few folks in that group that are a bit smarter than some on this site...perhaps...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: ruth13 on Nov 03, 2010, 06:04
Now I have a question for the pro-union side.    Here is the hypothetical situation - John Doe is a card carrying member of the NPUA and lives next to Plant A, a non NPUA, non Union site.  Now Plant B, an NPUA Unionized site is having an outage the same time as Plant A.  If John Doe is offered and subsequently turns down a position at Plant B, the NPUA site, so that he could work Non-Union at his home site how does that affect Johns standing w/in the Union?  Similar situation except both sites are NPUA and Plant B shuts down and staffs 3-4 weeks prior to Plant A and also overlaps Plant A by 3 weeks.  John Doe is offered a slot at Plant B, but he turns it down trying to wait for Plant A.  Since he turned down “Union” work does he go to the bottom of the Union call list, possibly being too far down the list to be offered a slot at Plant A because he turned down a Union gig at Plant B.  
If you substitute "Bartlett" for the "NPUA" in your question, I think you answer your own question...Here is the hypothetical situation - John Doe is a card carrying member of the NPUA Bartlett and lives next to Plant A, a non NPUA, non Union Bartlett site.  Now Plant B, an NPUA Unionized Bartlett site is having an outage the same time as Plant A.  If John Doe is offered and subsequently turns down a position at Plant B, the NPUA Bartlett site, so that he could work Non-Union Bartlett at his home site how does that affect Johns standing w/in the Union Bartlett?

I do have a question for you...you made this statement... "Bartlett has a habit for making sure theirs are taken care of first"  - isn't that only good business you take care of those that take care of you?   Maybe I'm missing something, maybe we should be taking care of all the people that bagged us on jobs, backed out last minute, no showed, or tested positive prior to taking care of those that honored their commitments, helped us out and did a good job.  We try to take care of everyone that works for us and does a good job, sometimes we can help everyone, sometimes we can't...but we do try...its our job.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Nov 03, 2010, 06:05
the Government and UAW now own 89% of GM, right?  How is that a union?  Wouldn't that make them majority owners?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: justme on Nov 04, 2010, 07:39
I have seen how NPUA techs have been treated at a plant.  Not very well according to them. Those that I spoke with headed back to DOE.

One of my hesitations, there are many, is that neither the President nor the VP of the organization, work union backup  contracts.  One is working for PG&E , non NPUA and the other is working at a shipyard in northern CA, also non NPUA.  Thought one led by example and sat out like technicians are asked to do.

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Nov 04, 2010, 08:17
One is working for PG&E , non NPUA and the other is working at a shipyard in northern CA, also non NPUA.  Thought one led by example and sat out like technicians are asked to do.

Sounds from your description that they are not working outages at power plants as contractors, which is what they seem to be urging people to do, in order to get leverage.  They don't seem to be asking you to not work at all, just not to accept outage work for under $35/hr.  They don't seem to mind if you 'holdout' by working DOE, the net effect at the power plants is the same whether you collect a check form a DOE site or unemployment.

I could be wrong, because I don't really know their intentions, but that is how it seems to me.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Nov 04, 2010, 09:38
Quote
Sounds from your description that they are not working outages at power plants as contractors, which is what they seem to be urging people to do, in order to get leverage.

They might have more credibility if their background was "fighting in the trenches" like the rest of us. Something to think about I guess...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retread on Nov 04, 2010, 09:56
They might have more credibility if their background was "fighting in the trenches" like the rest of us. Something to think about I guess...
I bitch about them as much as anyone else but they do seem to be "fighting in the trenches" to me.  Am I the enemy because I'm working DOE?!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Nov 04, 2010, 12:44
If you substitute "Bartlett" for the "NPUA" in your question, I think you answer your own question...Here is the hypothetical situation - John Doe is a card carrying member of the NPUA Bartlett and lives next to Plant A, a non NPUA, non Union Bartlett site.  Now Plant B, an NPUA Unionized Bartlett site is having an outage the same time as Plant A.  If John Doe is offered and subsequently turns down a position at Plant B, the NPUA Bartlett site, so that he could work Non-Union Bartlett at his home site how does that affect Johns standing w/in the Union Bartlett?



ruth13 - you obviously don't understand what I am asking or how most Unions operate. It is not the same as substituting Bartlett for the NPUA.  If a tech decides to not confirm for Site A w/BNI because he or she is waiting on their home site, Site B there is no problem.  They don't go to the bottom of a call list, in fact they would go to the top of the call list for Site B when we start hiring for it.   But with most Unions if you turn down a job with them your name normally goes to the bottom of their call list, and that was what I was asking - if a tech turned down a Union job at Site A, would their name go to the bottom of the Union call list possibly being too far down to get the slot they wanted at their home site, another Union job. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retread on Nov 04, 2010, 12:50
Excellent point Eric.  I haven't worked with a union so I was of the same mind as Ruth.  You cleared things up nicely, thanx.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Nov 04, 2010, 01:37
Quote
“Let me be clear, neither DZ Atlantic nor Bartlett have been willing to negotiate higher wages without involving the NLRB. They continue to be the low bidder and subsequently do not want to pay you a living wage. We have received no response from either of them until we brought in the NLRB. At that point, they can no longer ignore your requests. Remember that important point when it comes time to vote. “

The above quote was taken from the NPUA’s Propoganda Site on Nov 3, 2010…

Once again the NPUA Management throws out blatant falsehoods and half truths.  Why? Because they think the majority of you are too ignorant to know the truth or too blind to see their propaganda for what it is.  They want you to just sit back and open wide while they spoon feed you this drivel.   

How does the NPUA think wages have been increased over the years without their influence…magic?  Now I can’t and won’t speak for Atlantic but I can tell you Bartlett has never ignored the requests and needs of our workforce when it comes to compensation packages – When Bartlett got into this industry y’all were on 1099’s, Bartlett changed that.  Bartlett was the only vendor in this business to pay advanced per diem and is still one of the few that will advance you Perdiem when you first arrive on a site.  Bartlett was the first company to introduce good, affordable health care.  Bartlett was the first to introduce a 401k plan limited though it may be, Bartlett has always championed the highest wages our clients will allow us to bill for and we are constantly in a fluid state of negotiations with our clients to increase compensation packages, i.e. wages, diem, bonuses, benefits, etc…

The NPUA states that “We have received no response from either of them until we brought in the NLRB” – of course they had received no response from Bartlett prior to them involving the NLRB.  The reason why is because they never contacted us to begin with.  Their way of contacting us is force a vote and then demand a re-vote if it doesn’t go their way.   

Quote from Retread on nukeworker.com on Nov 3, 2011
“Eric, if as you say, you want to pay $35 an hour, why are you afraid of unionization”

Response
Retread, I am in no way “afraid” of Unionization, I am against Unionization by this “Union”.   Here are a few of the reasons why…

1.   The way this “Union” uses falsehoods and half truths to con the workforce – remember I, as an employer, am held to tell the truth by the NLRB when it comes to organization attempts where as the “Union” can say anything they want be it truthful or not.   
2.   The way this Union attacks Bartlett
3.   I’ve seen who has “worked” under this Union and truthfully it only makes Bartlett look good having the majority of them work for someone else.
4.   The way this Union treats technicians with genuine questions and concerns
5.   Their questionable record – so far they have been affiliated with 2 companies that no longer have anything to do with them – that alone makes me leery of this group…

I personally don’t see a “Union”.   I see a business venture disguised as a Union that only cares about how much money they can put in their own pockets.  Listen to their message – all they promise and talk about is higher wages, they don’t talk about benefits like affordable health insurance, dental insurance or retirement plans – benefits don’t put more money in their pockets, wages do. 

As Always,
Eric

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: walstib on Nov 04, 2010, 02:48
You compare NPUA to Bartlett, and I'll grant you that over the years Bartlett has instituted some good change for the industry.  So, not to attack Bartlett but ...
Bartlett was the only vendor in this business to pay advanced per diem ”

That one I have to raise the flag on  [BS]
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Nov 04, 2010, 03:27
"ARTICLE XIV – SALARIES AND EXPENSES
Section 1. The salary of the President shall be 145% of the highest wage secured for the members of the NPUA through collective bargaining. The salary will be based on a standard work week of 54 hours. The salary will be paid in biweekly amounts."

I personally don’t see a “Union”.   I see a business venture disguised as a Union that only cares about how much money they can put in their own pockets.  Listen to their message – all they promise and talk about is higher wages, they don’t talk about benefits like affordable health insurance, dental insurance or retirement plans – benefits don’t put more money in their pockets, wages do.

Interesting observation.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Nov 04, 2010, 03:33
You compare NPUA to Bartlett, and I'll grant you that over the years Bartlett has instituted some good change for the industry.  So, not to attack Bartlett but ...
That one I have to raise the flag on  [BS]
My bad, I'll clarify - Bartlett was the only vendor in the business to Automatically pay advanced perdiem...

and no I am not comparing the NPUA to Bartlett, I am just pointing out that Bartlett has done more for technicians in this business than this Union wants to admit as they continue to paint us as that evil low balling vendor. 

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Nov 04, 2010, 05:02
In the past, Eric was distinguished from most posters by his ability to comment with little or no emotion or personal attacks.  But, the past is just that.  The past.

Everyone has their limit.  You can only get beat on for so long before you start to get tender.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: nukewood on Nov 04, 2010, 05:05
Kudos to Eric Bartlett for having the the honesty and tenacity to try to explain his stand on this site. I have worked for him on and off for many years and have found him to be forthright and honest. I currently work a union job for Bartlett at DOE with no complaints , even though I have historically been reluctant to enter into the union entitlement environment. Bartlett has made it possible for me to work in either a union or non union site-my choice. I have been reluctant to enter into or sign any agreement with NPUA . I have not enjoyed the interaction from their representatives Nukeworker.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Nov 04, 2010, 05:11
In the past, Eric was distinguished from most posters by his ability to comment with little or no emotion or personal attacks.  But, the past is just that.  The past.

If you have read my past posts going back over the years you will see I have always posted with emotion, especially if it was in defense of the company. 

As far as personal attacks, if I have instigated any type of personal attack on any individual I am truly sorry as that is not my intent.  Those of you that have dealt with me, those of you that know me, know that even if I disagree with I still value your input, just ask RadGhost - we disagree on a daily basis, but I still value his views on things.

I do however have no qualms about going on the attack regarding this "Union", as it came out swinging and has shown no qualms about attacking the company that I not only work for, but that also carries my name and if the "Union" expects me to hunker back in a defensive posture they are mistaken. 

As Always,

Eric
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: ruth13 on Nov 04, 2010, 06:50
ruth13 - you obviously don't understand what I am asking or how most Unions operate. It is not the same as substituting Bartlett for the NPUA.  If a tech decides to not confirm for Site A w/BNI because he or she is waiting on their home site, Site B there is no problem.  They don't go to the bottom of a call list, in fact they would go to the top of the call list for Site B when we  start hiring for it.   But with most Unions if you turn down a job with them your name normally goes to the bottom of their call list, and that was what I was asking - if a tech turned down a Union job at Site A, would their name go to the bottom of the Union call list possibly being too far down to get the slot they wanted at their home site, another Union job. 

Eric - you are right, I don't know how unions operate - I'm trying to learn so I can decide which side of this issue I want to be on.  What I was pointing out is that I believe the union will operate the same way Bartlett does, and in fact the same way  most businesses and individuals operate - that is "scratch the back of the person scratching yours".  In your example you are assuming BNI is staffing both outages the tech is considering. I was referring to previous posts of yours where you explained how BNI gives preference to the techs who work for them opposed to the ones working for BNI's competitors when making staffing decisions. I am not saying that is an unfair practice, or that I don't agree with it, I'm only saying it sounds like what you are saying the NPUA would also do. Not meaning to attack BNI or anyone - just trying to be informed.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Nov 05, 2010, 09:35
I guess you don't have to like the guy to work for him
Quote
I have not enjoyed the interaction from their representatives Nukeworker.
but it certainly helps. I've noticed the comments from the union rep on this site and quite frankly, I wouldn't want him representing anything from me. Just by the way he writes his emails tells a true story. Sounds like an angry guy.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: redline on Nov 05, 2010, 02:03
The above quote was taken from the NPUA’s Propoganda Site on Nov 3, 2010…

Once again the NPUA Management throws out blatant falsehoods and half truths.  Why? Because they think the majority of you are too ignorant to know the truth or too blind to see their propaganda for what it is.  They want you to just sit back and open wide while they spoon feed you this drivel.   

How does the NPUA think wages have been increased over the years without their influence…magic?  Now I can’t and won’t speak for Atlantic but I can tell you Bartlett has never ignored the requests and needs of our workforce when it comes to compensation packages  – When Bartlett got into this industry y’all were on 1099’s, Bartlett changed that.  Bartlett was the only vendor in this business to pay advanced per diem and is still one of the few that will advance you Perdiem when you first arrive on a site.  Bartlett was the first company to introduce good, affordable health care.  Bartlett was the first to introduce a 401k plan limited though it may be, Bartlett has always championed the highest wages our clients will allow us to bill for and we are constantly in a fluid state of negotiations with our clients to increase compensation packages, i.e. wages, diem, bonuses, benefits, etc…

The NPUA states that “We have received no response from either of them until we brought in the NLRB” – of course they had received no response from Bartlett prior to them involving the NLRB.  The reason why is because they never contacted us to begin with.  Their way of contacting us is force a vote and then demand a re-vote if it doesn’t go their way.   

Quote from Retread on nukeworker.com on Nov 3, 2011
“Eric, if as you say, you want to pay $35 an hour, why are you afraid of unionization”

Response
Retread, I am in no way “afraid” of Unionization, I am against Unionization by this “Union”.   Here are a few of the reasons why…

1.   The way this “Union” uses falsehoods and half truths to con the workforce – remember I, as an employer, am held to tell the truth by the NLRB when it comes to organization attempts where as the “Union” can say anything they want be it truthful or not.   
2.   The way this Union attacks Bartlett
3.   I’ve seen who has “worked” under this Union and truthfully it only makes Bartlett look good having the majority of them work for someone else.
4.   The way this Union treats technicians with genuine questions and concerns
5.   Their questionable record – so far they have been affiliated with 2 companies that no longer have anything to do with them – that alone makes me leery of this group…

I personally don’t see a “Union”.   I see a business venture disguised as a Union that only cares about how much money they can put in their own pockets.  Listen to their message – all they promise and talk about is higher wages, they don’t talk about benefits like affordable health insurance, dental insurance or retirement plans – benefits don’t put more money in their pockets, wages do. 

As Always,
Eric



I no longer have adog in the fight but I still can read, therefore I must also throw some flags.

"never ignored the requests and needs of our workforce when it comes to compensation packages" I recall not only being ignored but told to shut my mouth or leave!

"Bartlett was the only vendor in this business to pay advanced per diem" Every company paid advance per diem

"Bartlett was the first company to introduce good, affordable health care" I have to agree, Bartlett HAD the best insurance in the industry, now however it just flat blows! Main reason I left BNI 5 years ago never to return!

"first to introduce a 401k plan limited though it may be" Limited yes but not the first!

"always championed the highest wages our clients will allow us to bill for" and my all time favorite coming from a company that took an increase in billing rates intended to give Jr. Technicians a raise and kept 100% of it!

There is no reason for Bartlett to be afraid of unionization. It's often a necessary evit when doing business. If technicians unionize BNI will deal with it. But it also means higher overhead costs even if there is never a contract signed, and no company wants someone else telling them how to do their business. If I were a company I would do whatever's in my power to stop an organizing effort.

But please Eric, don't claim NPUA is spreading falsehoods in the same breath as you spread your own and claim them as truths.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retread on Nov 05, 2010, 03:51
Caution -  [hijack]


Pot..........Kettle...........Black........? ROFL ROFL [dowave] [clap] [clap] [stir] [stir]
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Nov 05, 2010, 03:56
Redline - its easy to throw stones when you don't back any of it up and hide in anonymity.  I would appreciate it if you sent me an e-mail or gave me a call to discuss with examples of where I am wrong and i will fully acknowledge that I was wrong and post a retraction.  Let me know who out of the RP vendors offered a 401k prior to BNI, who paid automatically paid diem in advance prior to BNI, etc... I will fully admit I have only been here for 21 of the 31 years BNI has been in existence.  What I stated was from my first hand knowledge in that 21 years.  If something happened prior to me starting here or even after I started that I am unaware of that contractdicts what I wrote, as stated above I will be more than happy to post a retraction with the most humble of apologies.  

As always,
Eric
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Jr8black3 on Nov 05, 2010, 06:21
I have to give Eric Bartlett much karma. Yes if had my issues with bartlett, that was between me and them, I don't need NPUA to stand in and heal the hard feelings, I busted my ass up at Fermi with little respect When Pete had that job he knew the guy that took over is a complete BOZO,, I shouldn't say anymore,,other then i wouldn't want the NPUA supporting me I can do fine on my own..
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: azkidd on Nov 05, 2010, 06:51
I agree.  I also have had differences with Bartlett (not with Eric), but believe, he is steering us straight.  I am currently working for DZ Atlantic, and am qualified to vote during this NLRB vs NPUA thingy.  However, I am not and was not at any of the outages (Beaver, Palo, or Palisades) during this vote.  Been waiting on my mail in Ballot, still have yet to see it.  I have been told that since I have not filled out a "Card" to authorize the Union to represent me, I will not see a ballot.  Oh well.  I can read through the fine print.  Don't need 'em, don't want 'em.  Thanks Eric!  We appreciate the straight talk!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: HenryBlack on Nov 05, 2010, 08:16
  Don't need 'em, don't want 'em.  Thanks Eric!  We appreciate the straight talk!

    I may be wrong here, but if so maybe someone will correct me. Please! It is my understanding that if the people that don't want the NPUA representing them do not vote NO, then the yesses will win. If you are eligible to vote and don't want the NPUA representing you then please get the NO vote in. AS for me I haven't had the opportunity to vote yet, but if given the chance I will definitely vote NO.
    I am happy working for Bartlett now as I have been for the last 21 years. I chose to work at Duke-Energy Plants because they are close to home for me and I get to work pretty much all I want. While money is good and we all need it, I believe there is more to life than Money. Happiness in my life and being with my family is more important. I have been negotiating for myself almost 30 years now and just as soon keep on looking out for myself.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: OldHP on Nov 05, 2010, 09:16
Right on Henry!  However, it sounds like (and smells like) a fix.  If you don't authorize them to represent you, you can't vote?  That is not a vote!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on Nov 05, 2010, 09:48
Go back a page or two.  The qualifications for those permitted to vote are listed in a recent post.  It is absolutely NOT necessary to sign an authorization card in order to vote.

If you intend to vote "no", you probably should not file a card.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Jr8black3 on Nov 05, 2010, 10:58
Beer, I grew up on a farm, so I believe in hard work day in and day out, so my vote is no..

To me I don't need them dealing with Bartlett,if I want a job I can can get one, there not that hard to find..

LMFAO Im sure PWHoppe is happy I'm finally a Sr. RP now,,holy crap I can make alot more money in the decon world..
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: spongerob27 on Nov 06, 2010, 12:21
Though I no longer have a dog in the fight I will put my two cents in.
I worked for BNI for almost 10 years. I started and took any outage I could until I earned the respect and expierience to try to go where I wanted. Anytime I had a problem and there were a few. I knew I could call you Eric and get a straight answer. I did not always like the answer and maybe sometimes he did not either. But Eric was straight with me.
Now that I have a house job I no longer have a dog in this fight. But my ability to put in for this job was directly related to BNI giving me the opportunity to get the expierience I needed.
I just think it is funny that Eric can give an articulate and insightful response and all I see from the "union" is attacks and inarticulate responses. If I was still on the road it would be an easy decision for me.
And thank you Eric and BNI for everything.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Chimera on Nov 06, 2010, 06:27
Redline - its easy to throw stones when you don't back any of it up and hide in anonymity.  I would appreciate it if you sent me an e-mail or gave me a call to discuss with examples of where I am wrong and i will fully acknowledge that I was wrong and post a retraction.  Let me know who out of the RP vendors offered a 401k prior to BNI, who paid automatically paid diem in advance prior to BNI, etc... I will fully admit I have only been here for 21 of the 31 years BNI has been in existence.  What I stated was from my first hand knowledge in that 21 years.  If something happened prior to me starting here or even after I started that I am unaware of that contractdicts what I wrote, as stated above I will be more than happy to post a retraction with the most humble of apologies.  

As always,
Eric

Pardon me for butting in but . . .

I was common practice in the "old" days for us to get our per diem for the week coming as opposed to the week corresponding to our paychecks.  However, too many Techs ruined that practice along with many other practices that were "comon practice" way back then.

However, as to working for Bartlett in general: I worked my first Bartlett outage in 1984 - still have the jacket - and Bartlett has always done the correct thing for the Techs on the jobs I've been on.  Even those who were put on "double-secret probation" earned it more often than not.  I had a couple of discussions with Bruce back in the days when I was a site coordinator for Bartlett wherein he revealed a much more level-headed approach to the operations and policies of his company than most of us would have suspected when our only contact with the home office was usually just our paychecks.

When this DoE/ARRA job winds down, I'll be back on the road and Bartlett will be my first point of contact.  I will trust Bartlett long before I will trust the mechanations I've been seeing with NPUA.  I don't need them to represent me - I represent me - and I vote with my feet if I don't like a particular job offering.

Have a good Thanksgiving, Eric, and I thank Bartlett for all the Thanksgiving dinners you've helped fund over the years.

Mike
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Jr8black3 on Nov 07, 2010, 11:27
Love it you hit every nail on the head
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Dec 07, 2010, 05:01
The DZ Atlantic national election has begun. This is the first major step for us to receive a living wage from both Dz Atlantic and Bartlett. For those receiving a postal mail ballot, please vote and return them asap in the postal mail. The ballots must be in Minneapolis, Minnesota by November 13th, 2010.

So, what was the result?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Mike_Koehler on Dec 08, 2010, 06:44
chirp,chirp,chirp (go the crickets).............


Bueller.........Bueller...... ...Bueller............

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Dec 09, 2010, 07:37
chirp,chirp,chirp (go the crickets).............
Bueller.........Bueller...... ...Bueller............

I guess that's my answer.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Dec 30, 2010, 12:55
;D let me tell you something about your NPUA Pres. he will not post a job on his site untill he gives it to his cronies and makes sure they have a chance first then he will post it ( thats A fact ) And you are all stupid to give any money to a Union that doesn't excise, NOT REAL.... do you know where all the money is or what it is being used for and have any of you asked or do you always give out your hard earned money to someone to fly home on your dime and to fly his dad to California on your dime and call it Union business. And the big Question is have you ever worked or met with your Union President, if you haven't then maybe you should. I have worked with him and hes a good tech. and hes the biggest to-face and insecued person i have ever met, he is not for you and the Union he is for himself and hjs cronies he doesn't care about getting you the pay it's about you sendind money all he talked about on the job with me was how many techs. he needed to get signed up with the Union to beable to quit his job and stay home and live off you. I can also tell you he is the biggest snitch and back stabbing person I have worked with his loyalties are not with getting you betters jobs or better pay as much as it is getting him it. he is nothing but a sell out and thats a fact. If theres one thing about him thats good is that he cover up who he really is. Hay I could use some of your money too and I dont need 40.00 dollars a month for nothing I just need 5.00 from each of you dummies. If you dont like who you work for then quit and move on and let someone ealse work or better yet go get a 9 to 5 job and see how much you make then and mybe the NPUA will help you there to.



Can anyone say "business venture" - if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - guess what it is most likely is a duck.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: tolstoy on Dec 30, 2010, 01:55
;D let me tell you something about your NPUA Pres. he will not post a job on his site untill he gives it to his cronies and makes sure they have a chance first then he will post it ( thats A fact ) And you are all stupid to give any money to a Union that doesn't excise, NOT REAL.... do you know where all the money is or what it is being used for and have any of you asked or do you always give out your hard earned money to someone to fly home on your dime and to fly his dad to California on your dime and call it Union business. And the big Question is have you ever worked or met with your Union President, if you haven't then maybe you should. I have worked with him and hes a good tech. and hes the biggest to-face and insecued person i have ever met, he is not for you and the Union he is for himself and hjs cronies he doesn't care about getting you the pay it's about you sendind money all he talked about on the job with me was how many techs. he needed to get signed up with the Union to beable to quit his job and stay home and live off you. I can also tell you he is the biggest snitch and back stabbing person I have worked with his loyalties are not with getting you betters jobs or better pay as much as it is getting him it. he is nothing but a sell out and thats a fact. If theres one thing about him thats good is that he cover up who he really is. Hay I could use some of your money too and I dont need 40.00 dollars a month for nothing I just need 5.00 from each of you dummies. If you dont like who you work for then quit and move on and let someone ealse work or better yet go get a 9 to 5 job and see how much you make then and mybe the NPUA will help you there to.

Can anyone say 'libel?' I have no use for the union, have never met the union pres, but this seems over the top.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Eric_Bartlett on Dec 30, 2010, 03:10
Just wondering if anyone has heard the final results of the DZA/NPUA vote – I’ve heard rumor to the effect that the NPUA was defeated 2:1 but have been unable to verify that – can anyone verify that rumor or set me straight?

Thanks - Hope y'all have a Happy and Prosperous New Year!

Eric
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Dec 30, 2010, 03:15
Can anyone say 'libel?' I have no use for the union, have never met the union pres, but this seems over the top.

I'm sure the unions lawyer will be contacting me, at which point I will have to hand over the posters IP address, and email address.  People need to know that they are not anonymous, or above the law.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: let-it-ride on Dec 30, 2010, 05:38
But what if it is TRUE?
 [hypno]
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: lopez1 on Dec 30, 2010, 05:51
Thats OK its my opinion on the NPUA President I have worked with him and I have gone out to dinner and have had a number of conversations with him and in that I can have an opinion on his character so if you don't think I'm right or the NPUA Lawyers do not like it tough sh-t. You can always try to sue me, so all you TECHS out there be sure to send them your 40.00 dollars. 
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Nuclear NASCAR on Dec 30, 2010, 08:43
If anyone other than an NPUA executive was the target of these baseless slams folks would chastise the accuser if not delete the post outright.  But, what we see are not so subtle endorsements of the juvenile rant by the leader and sponsor of this site.

Seriously?  Let me make sure I understand correctly.  Because Bartlett is a major advertiser and they don't like the NPUA we are bowing to their will and leaving it here to please them? 

No doubt that Bartlett has been wrongly slammed.  Even our DOE friends have been victims of less than glowing banter.  The difference [as far as my memory serves me] is the acceptance if not outright endorsement of the slams by NW leadership and NW sponsors. 

Sorry but I think this is where we'll just have to agree to disagree.  I do appreciate you stirring it up though!   ;) [stir]
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: roadhp on Dec 30, 2010, 11:50
I just want to know, from Sun Dog or anyone else, the answer to that burning question...What was the result of the DZ Atlantic vote?  So far, I haven't heard anything from the NLRB, NPUA, or DZ Atlantic, so just from that it appears the vote was negative, but no one has officially said.  Can anyone hiring in for DZ Atlantic say if they are being told to join the union for the spring outages?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: chosen on Dec 31, 2010, 12:50
it was negative almost three to one.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: retired nuke on Dec 31, 2010, 11:53
And no mention of anything on their website....

funny, that...
 ;)
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Chimera on Jan 01, 2011, 12:10
People and/or companies getting "slammed" on this site?  I think almost all of us have been slammed at one time or other in here - individuals, contract companies and utilities alike.  So what's the big deal?  Sometimes the individual is just blowing off steam over some perceived inequality or less than desirable practice that they've experienced along the way.

Libel?  Slander?  After over 40 years in this industry and having worked at over 40 sites - NRC, DoE, and military alike - I'm sure I could whine and complain with the best of them.  But I discovered a little secret: This isn't my life.  This is only my job.  It's how I pay for things I do with my life.  I've worked with some wonderful people over the decades as well as some I would just as soon never see again.  I've worked for companies (from ANEFCO to Bartlett) that I've vowed never to work for again and at sites I would just as soon never go back to.

As for NPUA: When I see a union that is willing to actually represent us and not be just another disguised job-shop with a Tech-hoarding scheme (my perception only), I will support it.  In the meantime, free enterprise is still the ruling principle of the day and our piece of the industry. 

If you have a better offer, the Techs will flock to it.  But we are a bunch of rugged individuals and not a group of sheeple who can be led around with some vague promise of a better pay check.  There are too many other issues involved - although we do all like to whine about our paychecks.

Okay, so much for my rant.

To all my brother and sister Techs (that includes all the deconners and juniors, too) out there in the nuclear world - have a happy and prosperous New Year.

Michael

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Soul Merchant on Jan 20, 2011, 11:40
 +K
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: AARPSHP on Jan 24, 2011, 09:27
Headed to Monty this spring.  We got a 10 percent pay increase.  Things are looking up.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: jbarney1957 on Feb 05, 2011, 11:12
WORKED FOR NPUA AND I-3 SOLUTIONS
HAD TO FIGHT FOR ALL MY PAYCHECKS AFTER THE OUTAGE WAS OVER ($18,000)
ALL THE TECH'S
THANK GOD FOR J.R. COLE RPM, AND NY STATE CONTRACT LAWS

NOW THIS IS FEB 2011 AND NO W-2'S  MY NEXT THANK GOD WILL BE THE IRS

I-3 SOLUTIONS AND NPUA ARE EXCUSES AND A LAME IRM

HONEST JOHN
[/color]
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Frankie Love on Feb 08, 2011, 12:26
Cracks in the armor…

Still no response…must be hibernating for the winter.

 [coffee] [coffee] [coffee]
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Already Gone on May 03, 2011, 09:34
Bueller?  Bueller?  Bueller?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Mike McFarlin on May 03, 2011, 02:55
WORKED FOR NPUA AND I-3 SOLUTIONS
HAD TO FIGHT FOR ALL MY PAYCHECKS AFTER THE OUTAGE WAS OVER ($18,000)
ALL THE TECH'S
THANK GOD FOR J.R. COLE RPM, AND NY STATE CONTRACT LAWS

NOW THIS IS FEB 2011 AND NO W-2'S  MY NEXT THANK GOD WILL BE THE IRS

I-3 SOLUTIONS AND NPUA ARE EXCUSES AND A LAME IRM

HONEST JOHN
[/color]
Same thing happened to me at Vogtle in March! Call me or PM me and I will explain all the shortcomings of I3 and NPUA. I have until next April 15th to get my taxes in line. BEWARE!!!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: GLW on May 12, 2012, 11:22
One year and nine days,.....

Well,....there you go,...

Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Laundry Man on May 14, 2012, 10:30
I thought they were in the "Fallen" forum.
LM
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: GLW on May 27, 2013, 10:43
Two years and 24 days,...
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: GLW on Oct 05, 2013, 06:06
Two years and 128 days, although they do check in and look every once in a while,... [coffee]
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Mike McFarlin on Dec 28, 2013, 12:45
Is the money that was kept for training still available? I had 500.00 or more withheld from my checks while at Vogtle. My "site coordinator" first told us we did not have to have these funds removed from our pay, but as usual he did not have a clue as to what he was talking about. Well I'm ready to use these funds for "more training" and would like to know where they are!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Mike McFarlin on Dec 30, 2013, 04:07
Come on Kevin, need a response.
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Mike McFarlin on Mar 15, 2014, 10:42
Still waiting Mr President!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: GLW on Mar 16, 2014, 01:35
Two years and 128 days, although they do check in and look every once in a while,... [coffee]

Two years and 290 days,...has been awhile since the big dog last checked in,...darn near 6 months now,...at least as a user,...guests are not tracked,...............maybe,.... :-\
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Mike McFarlin on Jun 16, 2014, 12:18
Come on Kevin, need a response.

Come on Kevin, need a response.

Where did this money go? Still waiting, been 3+ years now, if this rip off is whats gonna happen, be man enough to call and tell me!! Is the NPUA still active?
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Jun 16, 2014, 05:48
The last admin post in their forum was on Sun Nov 20, 2011 at 8:55 pm.  It was about the Fukushima Dai-ichi  Incident.

They are not even managing their forums, they are full of spam:  http://www.npua.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=397 Even the spam bots have stopped posting as of Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:11 am!




Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Rennhack on Apr 27, 2015, 10:57
Website is dead: http://www.npua.org/
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: Carolina Jethro on Apr 29, 2015, 03:21
Finally off life support!
Title: Re: NPUA
Post by: GLW on Apr 25, 2017, 02:15
Two years and 290 days,...has been awhile since the big dog last checked in,...darn near 6 months now,...at least as a user,...guests are not tracked,...............maybe,.... :-\

>1924 days,...

that's 233 days+ enough 4 me,...

reckon this one closes at 25 pages,....