mm, em, et, elt?

[JustinHEMI05]

Give me any piece of equipment and I will repair or rebuild it faster, more efficiently and better than any regular MM.

Mike

+1. Along with that, I was the only one who was allowed to touch the still and my division of smags had to explain to the MMs why having a competition about who could make more water with the 10K without accounting for its chemistry was a bad thing. They weren't allowed to run the 10k for half a deployment.

Justin

[Preciousblue1965]

Just the same we had ELTs that weren't allowed to stand Mechanic watches unless there were at least 2 ERS qual'd guys on watch with them.  It can go either way.

[Fermi2]

There were dozens of Mechanics in my Navy Career who scared the crap out of me when they were standing watch. It's not specific to ELTs and to imply otherwise is asinine.
Outside of maybe 2 other individuals and me about the 5 best mechanics I ever knew were ELTs.

[Smooth Operator]

I always took the ELT-hate in stride.

Cause someone always needed me to turn the tough valves.

[DLGN25]

ELT's, well they don't walk on water.  We had one that made a big time mistake that resulted in a visit from Rickover and his henchmen.  Then there was the EM who tried to do a PM on a turbine generator, but failed to note it was on line.  Then there was the MM, who in the process of changing an oil filter on the main engine blew hot oil all over the place.  But I never knew an ET to make a mistake.  Well, er, perhaps one.

Long hours affect everyone's ability to stay focused.  I do have to admit, duty rotation for the ELT was the best in the engine room, the ET's had the worse whether under way or in port.

The only down side for an ELT from my perspective, is they were the guys that got to go first into the reactor compartment and look for hot spots, then shield them.  I swear to this day I could feel the neutrons when I had to go in there.

[G-reg]

And as it turns out we have proof (due to fraud and a lack of integrity) that the Navy's Rx's are fool proof even when no action, by an ELT, is taken.

I know what you're referring to here, and your statement is incorrect.  That event in no way provided the "proof" you are mentioning here.

Furthermore, I think you're smart enough to realize that without me having to tell you.

[HydroDave63]

Masters of their own domain, I believe they're called. 

Shouldn't that, in the Seinfeld context, really be "Queen of the castle" ? 

JERRY: But the question is, are you still master of your domain?

ELAINE: (Sets the glass down) I'm queen of the castle. (Pops a piece of food into her mouth)

http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheContest.htm

[goobs22xx]

Wow, this conversation went from humorous to slightly over the top.

I'm nothing but a lowly MM2(SU) staff scrape up. I've seen a vast array of fast boat, boomer, carrier, and even cruiser guys of all rates here at the floatotype, which I believe to be a unique situation in that (virtually) no one coming here has any past experience on this platform. I've seen guys of the same rate, same boat, and same crew prove themselves to be at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to performance/aptitude. To say that ones rate predetermines their worth to a crew is a little short sighted.

Of course, this is all just my humble opinion. But as this thread has proven, there are outliers to everyone's situation. ELTs have been called out as the best mechanics and as the absolute worst mechanics by two different people. Maybe YOUR ELTs were awful/lazy/worthless but someone else could have had a great RL div. Think about what a limited view we all get of things as a whole when compared to the many ships that have been manned by many different nukes over many different decades.

Again, just my opinion, but I've worked alongside and learned from the entire gambit of possibilities of rates/prior platforms. It really comes down to the person and, more importantly, the people in their division that help to bring them to speed. Motivation and aptitude seem to be the true variables that dictate success, not so much rate.

This is all just my $.02. I'm sure someone will point out (like I get on an almost-daily basis) that I haven't been to sea so I don't have a good perspective on it. Maybe you're right and I'll have crappy MMs/EMs/ETs/ELTs/JOs/DHs....or whatever. I just have a hard time believing that some arbitrary assignment to a rate can dictate what kind of a professional you are.

I may be wrong, but that would be truly disappointing.

[HydroDave63]

to ya!

I think some of us were just poking at those with the "my rate is better" spiel.

On topic: Original poster, do you do anything with chemistry or electronics now?

[withroaj]

... but someone else could have had a great RL div...

Even the worst (well, maybe not the worst...) RL Div just happens to be great.  Someone else could have recognized it.

... I'm sure someone will point out (like I get on an almost-daily basis) that I haven't been to sea so I don't have a good perspective on it...

Don't EVER let anyone with less than ten years of sea duty hold sea time over your head (funny thing is, people with 10+ years sea time usually don't hold it over your head).  I've been a staff pickup, SSN ELT, and now I am a CVN ELT.  The work was harder and more demanding as a prototype instructor than at any other time I've experienced as of yet (including WestPac, EOH, ORSE, MTT, PCO Ops, "Squadron Assists," and workups, workups, workups...). 

Sea-going plants don't start up and shut down twice (or more) a shift, three shifts a day, 365 days a year.  "Sea time" is mostly spent walking around your space, taking logs and cleaning -- imagine steady state or mild transients for weeks.  Staff drills are more intense than shipboard drills.  The standard for formality and professional conduct is much higher for P-type instructors than it is in the fleet.  You get stuck with just about all of the "boy" work.  As a SPU at a prototype you work your whole shift, every shift.  On a ship/boat there are days you can skate early (not too many, but...).  Sure, you haven't experienced the infinite boredom and loneliness of a deployment.  You haven't had a coner/topsider "shipmate" you for some inane garbage.  I can tell you that by the time you leave prototype and report as a "nub" to your first ship/boat, you will have more startup/shutdown experience than any other first-termer on board (don't let that go to your head, though).

The point is, your $0.02 is worth just as much as anyone else can offer.  The other point is, ELTs really are great.  That's just how it goes.

[JustinHEMI05]

Hate?  I don't think so.  Dislike?  Yes.  Our ELT's never had to stand any watch but Engine Room Forward.  They never had to do MM PMS or any maintenance M-Div wise ever.  So, yes dislike is the better term.

That's yours, your leading firsts and your chiefs fault.

Jealousy is so unbecoming. Or is it simply your apparent lack of ability to see the good natured humor in the posts the former ELTs are making? Either way, you feelings are clear.

Justin

[metoo]

That's yours, your leading firsts and your chiefs fault.

Don't forget to add LELT (and/or possibly up) fault.

I was on one of those Engineroom forward boats.  We got a new Captain who wasn't stuck in the "let's defend ourselves from ORSE" mode, and I started qualifying MM's as Secondary Chemists.  It worked great!  ELT's got out of ERF.  M-diver's got a taste of our world.  Folks got along better, enjoyed their work more (or hated it less).   Bottom line, we got more done.  The ELT's stuck in ERF was a lack of leaders with testicular fortitude problem.  ORSE grades actually went up! 

As to ELT's not being mechanical, that's all over the board.  On my crew, two of us grew up as farm boys, and another was a gear head with a fast car.  We were always in the thick of M-div maintenance, and more especially, repairs, as we had more experience making broken things work than most of  M-div.  However, there was a certain "smooth crotch" on the other crew who was way more concerned with his: 1) Time off to go clubbing in the city.  2) Safety of his BMW's parking spot.  3) Protection of his manicure, than doing his job, that he was useless other than to say you had a warm body you could stick on a watch station.

Personally (not that anyone cares, sometimes I just like to brag if I've had a good weekend on the farm), I just rebuilt a carburetor on one tractor, rebuilt a hydraulic valve on another, and diagnosed and repaired two concurrent electrical faults on a third tractor this past weekend.   Yes, I can, and have replaced mech seals on pumps.

[Gamecock]

Back in the day, a hard working and extremely smart  (and also very handsome) LTjg was medically DQ'd from his boat and sent to work at Squadron awaiting the Disqual paperwork to go through the appropriate channels.  While at Squadron, this LTjg worked directly for the Squadron Engineer, and as such got to spend a lot of time with the Master Chiefs and Senior Chiefs that also worked directly for the Squadron Eng.  One day, the E9 results for that year were released, and the Squadron Radcon guy was selected.  The LTjg always assumed that is was hard for a submarine ELT to make chief, let alone Senior chief or master chief.  The LTjg based this assumption on the fact that on his old boat, the LELT was a 19 year MM1.  He also remembered the plethora of submarine ELTs at NPTU that were life-long MM1s.  So, the LTjg asked the newly selected MMCM how in the world did he manage to make E9 in 13 years while a good portion of his colleagues were still MM1s.  The newly selected MMCM revealed the secret....

He said that first and foremost the ELT is a MM.  He said that it should be easier for the ELT to make CPO then the regular mechanic because on top of doing MM work, the ELT also has to deal with chemistry and RADCON (i.e. the ELT is a MM that has a rather important collateral duty).  Therein lies the secret...which in my mind is no secret at all....

Work harder then the next guy and you will be rewarded......If you are an ELT and you just want to sit in nucleonics and shoot the breeze, then you will reap what you sow and likely be a career MM1.  If, on the other hand, you become a vital part of M-div as well as RL div, you will stand-out and you will be rewarded for your hard work.

[JustinHEMI05]

Well said Game.

Justin

[Khak-Hater]

Very old joke:  

What's 2+2?

ET:  [Using calculator] "4.00"
EM:  [briefly awakening from nap] "four, now leave me alone"
MM:  [counting on fingers] "uh, four?"
ELT:  [Smiling] "What do you need it to be?"

ELTs tend to be more philosophical [if you're going to hear a conversation comparing Heidegger to Camus, there's probably at least one RL Div. dude involved].  Other nukes might know facts and have opinions [they're all smart people], but you won't find as many true philosophers amongst their ranks.  After all, philosophy isn't about what you know or think.  It's about what you don't know.  No other nukes are as keenly aware of what they don't know as ELTs.  

The stuff about having more charm [personality/charisma] is also well founded.  Remember, whether you are chosen to be an ET, EM, or MM is an almost arbitrary decision made in boot camp and is not based on actual nuclear performance (i.e., it's luck of the draw).  ELTs, on the other hand, are hand chosen [for ELT school] from the NPTU graduating class of MMs.  Therefore, they have to do something during their nuclear training, at some point, to stand out.  On the pig, we also had a lot [over a dozen] of ELTs who were MM staff scrape-ups at NPTU (i.e., NPTU selects a small portion of their graduating class to immediately serve as instructors before going to sea) who selected ELT school as their STAR C-School before their sea tour.  Therefore, the ELT ranks were thick with personnel who had distinguished themselves [in some way] at NPTU, whether they be Type A personalities, accomplished sycophants, hard driven introverts, or some other form of achievement oriented men.  All of these traits were due, primarily, to the selection process [the "nature" in "nature vs. nurture"].  

Unfortunately, because of the type of work that they do, ELTs also tend to be the most "mafioso" ["don't go against the family"] of all nukes.  It is almost impossible for the khaks [Navy management] to actually closely supervise the work of ELTs like they can the work of other nukes.  It is an obvious fact whether a valve or breaker is closed, a pump or generator is running, etc., but radiological conditions and plant water chemistry aren't as obvious.  Therefore, ELTs are required to be more self policing, leading to almost a secret society driven mentality.  Their routine duties also include a great deal more supervisory duties and responsibilities than the average watchstander.  Therefore, they tend to develop leadership skills a little faster.  These tendencies are related to the work performed [the "nurture" in "nature vs. nurture"].  

These are all generalizations:  ELTs are charming and/or "creative";  ETs are prissy and/or anal; EMs are slothful and/or invisible; and MMs are more manly and/or physical.  There are plenty of exceptions.  I had a shift of ELTs who worked for me who made up the majority of the ship's Rugby team [not a lot of Dostoevsky reading on that shift].  I knew some ETs and MMs who were as philosophical as anyone.  I knew plenty of ELTs who were completely devoid of any charm.  Overall though, there are general tendencies that lead people to the stereotypes.

Does acknowledging these tendencies make us Rate-ist bigots?

mgm

[Fermi2]

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Awesome!

[HydroDave63]

whether they be Type A personalities, accomplished sycophants, hard driven introverts, or some other form of achievement oriented men.  

Which reminded me of the line from Dirty Dozen :

"You've got one religious maniac, one malignant dwarf, two near-idiots, and the rest I don't even wanna think about!"

But seriously, to ya, you made some excellent observations!

[DLGN25]

Forgetting who you are, or why you are there will hold you back.  As an ET radar (ETR), I had to compete with other ETRs for advancement.  So you come out of A school an ETR3, having been trained on only one radar, (SPS-10 in my case), then on to a year or so of nuke training.  So while in nuke school, you have to also study for the ETR2 test, again theory and radar specific.   If things go right, you leave nuke training, and you report to your ship, walking aboard as an ETR2.  Now while you qualify as an RO, standing watches and doing all the other maintenance and such, you have to study for the ETR1 test.  ETR3 was easy, ETR2 was easy, ETR1, not so easy, as you are now being tested on equipment you have never seen, and concepts you have not used for the past two or three years.  The same challenge for the ETC's (ET communication).  Now I know, more points are given to nuke ET to help advancement, but you still had to pass the test.

E-6 is a comfortable place to be as a nuke (there were a lot on my ship), to high in rate to do the dirty stuff, and low enough to not have to deal with the division bs or be required to qualify as a watch officer.  This is not true in the conventional fleet, where as an E-6 you are in the midst of it all, if not at the fore front.  E-7 is where a lot conventional ETs liked to be, the field narrows as you move to 8 and 9 as the lazy or non-motivated drop out.

Even as a trained nuke, the Navy looks at your nuke job as an assignment, to the Navy, you are your rating.  Or at least that was the way it was back then.

Now back to the person who started this thread.  Your question comes down to two.  What rating pays the best and housing for your family at each of your posts.  If you are only into this for the money, you will not be content.  The hours are long and expectations high, the demands are always there.  It is hard enough for a father to miss his children's birthdays, first day of school, or winning their first soccer game, or to not be there to tend to a sick or hurt child, or to comfort his wife when she is down.  I can barely imagine what it is for a mother to miss all of that, and my hat is off to those women who enlist and their husbands who have to be mother and father (and mothers who have to be both).

Keep in mind that sailors serve on ships, and the ship always comes first.  The Navy will own you lock, stock, and barrel for six years.  You will do what they say, go where they say, when they say, and for how long they say.  If you think the extra money will offset this reality, then go for it.  If not, stay out of the military, or join the Air Force. 

[Pirate Bob]

Where did you get that number?  25 seems awfully young for something like that.  I know for a fact that there were people MUCH older than 25 in my nuke school classes.  If there is a restriction on people 25 and older, I have absolutely no doubt you would be able to get it.  Even so, I think you heard wrong, because the age limit is probably closer to 35 than 25.

*Ahem*
Finally, something I can talk about and not sound like an idgit. There is a requirement for an age waiver if you are older than 25 before entering RTC.  It is not very difficult to get, but can take a while.  4-6 weeks is how long it is taking right now.

As a side note, it looks like there aren't any openings for nukes until next March (and yes, the bonuses are now 21-25K).  I went in the summer, for less money (and was around more young'ins), and had a blast decent time of it.  There were two weeks straight of black flag (>95F), which meant no double-time (running) when outside.  It gets pretty freakin' cold up there in the winter. Due to my hatred of temperatures less than 70F, I decided that I would take less money and sweat my weight away in the process.  Good thing I'm stationed in San Diego now!

[xrex1x]

Just a quick note and a slight tweak: The age waiver is necessary if you are 25 or older, not over 25, when you enter RTC.  I turned 25 a few weeks ago, leave for RTC in July, and I needed an age waiver.

Rex.

[stephpatton]

.

Now back to the person who started this thread.  Your question comes down to two.  What rating pays the best and housing for your family at each of your posts.  If you are only into this for the money, you will not be content.  The hours are long and expectations high, the demands are always there.  It is hard enough for a father to miss his children's birthdays, first day of school, or winning their first soccer game, or to not be there to tend to a sick or hurt child, or to comfort his wife when she is down.  I can barely imagine what it is for a mother to miss all of that, and my hat is off to those women who enlist and their husbands who have to be mother and father (and mothers who have to be both).

Keep in mind that sailors serve on ships, and the ship always comes first.  The Navy will own you lock, stock, and barrel for six years.  You will do what they say, go where they say, when they say, and for how long they say.  If you think the extra money will offset this reality, then go for it.  If not, stay out of the military, or join the Air Force. 

i just want to point  out that I do not miss the obvious fact that I will be away from my family for long periods of time for the next 6 years.  I also want to point out that my current job is almost just as bad, with the exception that I have the opportunity to quit at my own will.  i work 330 am to 300 pm.  in a dialysis unit.  my work is fast paced, constant, and sometimes just plain sucks so bad I could punch somebody.  especially when someone dies.  and you are told you shouldn't be close enough to these patients you see 3 days a week, 5 hours a treatment that you would cry over them.  i have been squirted with arterial spray, puked on, pooped on, given CPR to a patient in a lazy boy, pulled crash carts and got out the defibrillator, you name it.  and it isn't even the hospital, its just an outpatient clinic. so my options in life are to do this, day in day out 12 hours a day, 4-6 days a week, sometimes working 330 am to midnight, and not ever being able to have the time to finish my engineering degree so I can have a better life for my daughter, or I can join the navy and give just 6 years up for her.  She only sees me 2-3 hours a day now.  i love  her so much.   My husband is very supportive, and i know one parent should not be expected to do the job of 2.  but this is a different world,  i cannot sit at home and be stay at home mommy.  unless i wanted to be on welfare when my husband gets laid off.   one day, she'll know what I did so she can go to a better school and live a better and more secure life.  she'll be 8 when i get out.  and i plan on devoting all i can in my short time i will have with them.  I just would like a bigger sign on bonus...to pay off my debt, why not be patient and wait if it means 5k extra? so  it is about making ends meet and putting food on the table.  Navy first yadayada...OK, i get it.  doesn't mean I'm a horrible parent if i want better for my child in the long run. 

[DLGN25]

stephpatton , please do not misunderstand my post.  I did not mean to imply you are a bad Mother, or will be one should you join the Navy.  My Father was a career Navy man.  I was the eldest and grew up with two brothers and two sisters who I helped raise.  I remember how hard it was on my mother, I also know how much I missed my Father.  Although times have changed, and you can stay much more in touch then those days when a stack of letters would all come at once, it is not an easy life.

I joined the Navy at 19, after giving college a try and became a reactor operator on the Bainbridge DLGN-25.  I married at 22.  At the time I was an E-5.  Even then, money was tight until I was allowed to re-enlist for three years at the end of three years, and go from active reserve to active Navy.  The bonus was $10,000, and given I was in the war zone, tax free. 

While enamored with the wonders of nuclear power, the hours were intolerable.  Underway, no big deal, but in port I worked 10-12 hours per day and had duty every third day.  After two years on Bainbridge, I got orders to Idaho Falls for instructor duty.  I knew what that work schedule was and turned the orders down.  So instead of instructor duty, my last two years were served as an E-6 on a conventional destroyer, life was much better.  So much better, that I contemplated making it a career.  Anyway, when my enlistment was almost up, I got orders to Enterprise.  No way was I going to a bird farm.  The 500 souls on Bainbridge were bad enough, but 5,000, no way.  I left the service.  Two years later I was divorced.

I am retired now, from a career that had nothing to do with engineering, and look back on my Navy experience with pride.  I remember the good and the bad.  If I could roll back the clock to when I was 19, and knew then what I know now, I am not sure I would do it again. 

Anyway, I do care about what happens to you and your family, and I know you will do what is necessary for their well being.  I just wanted you to be aware of what you are getting into.

Take care, and I hope it all works out for you and your family.

Noelan

[goobs22xx]

I was just giving my version of the story.  Maybe it wasn't as funny.  I was giving the other side of the coin a turn.

Maybe I misinterpreted it but your post did seem a tad personal ("You all thought you were the go to MM.  The fact is you weren't and as far as I can tell you are all legends in your own minds.").

Your elts maybe weren't special, as elts or as mms, but I know that I surely have no clue about the elts you worked with. I know that our elts aren't involved with anything on the mechanical side of things and would be a liability standing watch. That doesn't mean that one should assert that to be the case everywhere, especially not to the point of directing it at someone with whom you've never worked.

However, if I read too much into your post, I apologize.

[Pirate Bob]

Just a quick note and a slight tweak: The age waiver is necessary if you are 25 or older, not over 25, when you enter RTC.  I turned 25 a few weeks ago, leave for RTC in July, and I needed an age waiver.

Rex.

That's what I meant.  I was so concerned about getting the spelling right I forgot to make the wording right.
 


(If you turn 25 today, tomorrow you are older than 25, right?)

[Marlin]

Keep telling yourself that if you want.  I don't buy it.

   Chemistry in the class room and the chemistry of an operating plant don't always match up. Adding chemicals to a vat or beaker may be a nice clean evolution but a system with varying parameters in mass, flow, and "nuclear phenomenon" may require an under the table extra scoop of chemicals. Learning a little "Tribal Knowledge" on the characteristics of a plant was always helpful. Being an ELT on a sub was a very independent watch compared to the other watch stations, being the only 24/7 watch that was pretty much left up to the ELT to manage his time for work, sleep, and maintenance. After a while on watch you could predict chemical and radiological results with a very good accuracy based on power and normal depletion rates of chemicals.
   I won't be foolish enough to deny that at times the emphasis in Radiochemistry is the "Radio" since that seems to arise from time to time most recently on the USS Hampton, but desired results can be obtained by timing the sample or manipulating the water levels in the S/Gs etc.. You could also get the blood pressure of a young EOOW up by running your backgrounds at operating depth then run a couple of MDA samples after surfacing, just make sure you tell him whats going on before he calls the Engineer or CO unless you are really feeling evil they will not figure it out until you tell them.

Ex MM1ss ELT (and Gnuclear Philosopher)