Navy Nukes overmanned?

[JustinHEMI05]

I was just wondering. Do people at civilian plants still have to have some level os integrated plant knowledge or is it brute force memorization of procedures? I assume some logic has to intervene somewhere as they cant make a procedure for everything right?

I agree with War Eagles sentiments. There can, in fact, be a procedure for everything.  At least, the industry is trying very hard! 20 years ago, operators maneuvered the plant based simply on integrated plant knowledge. Well, in some cases, that led to monthly unplanned scrams, reactivity control errors and NRC ordered shut downs. The industry is now very focuses on procedural compliance and configuration control.*

Operators still must have a high level of integrated plant knowledge however, because as War Eagle alluded to, these big ol nukes are infinitely more complicated than a Navy plant. There are some occasions, at least at my 2 BWRs, where you simply do not have the time to consult procedures. Yes, the CRS has the TRIPs (transient response procedures) to guide him through a scenario, but each step has deep meaning that he and the other operators have to understand in order to implement the strategy effectively. Commercial plants are much less forgiving than Navy plants, and that is simply a matter of their respective uses. Like it has been said many times, Navy plants are Ferrari's and commercial plants are freight trains and thus, their designs are dictated by the needs.

*These statements are based solely on my current plant's history and in no way imply that every plant experienced the same sore of troubles. YMMV.

[VincentVega]

hahahahahahahaha.   sigh. overmanned.  sorry I couldn't stop laughing.  They ARE bringing more of us in.  NOT overmanning, however, since a lot of senior enlisted are not re-enlisting.  They, (the Navy) have lowered standards to the point a 2.5 is a passing grade.  Oh God, don't get me started. We had a student in my class who failed 2 out of 3 subjects, and was given the opportunity to taknot everyonee comp!   If he would have passed, he would have been allowed to continue through the pipeline! Honestly, what are they (the Navy) thinking.  People can only understand a little over HALF of the information and still be pushed along.  Sometimes, when I read the posts of those of you who have been here at NNPTC in the past, I am really jealous.  You knew that the sailors who were there next to you at graduation were competent.  I do not and never will consider 2.5 competent by any means.  Navy knows best, but my common sense tells me lowering standards at NNPTC for students cannot be good for maintaining standards in the fleet. 

Listen...maybe everyone isn't as smart as you.  I am currently an instructor at NNPTC and it always makes me laugh when I hear guys like you call these kids stupid just because they are barely passing.  By no means am I a hugger, but the vast majority of these kids are going to make good nukes.  There will always be problems with the weeding out process, but with the way things are right now we need all the bodies we can get in the fleet.  If we can teach these kids 2.5 knowledge and send them on their way, then it is up to the leadership of whatever command they end up at to ensure that they are really transformed into useful, knowledgeable nukes.  And if there are Chiefs out there that don't want to do that, then I would say that they are more useless than that 2.5 student. 
I barely made it through this pipeline myself...and (not to be cocky or anything) I have always been one of those "go to guys" in every Engineering Dept that I have been a part of. 
Don't judge these guys too much on how they are doing now.  Not everyone is as smart as you are and the light doesn't always come on at the same time for everyone.  Teach them as much as you can and then look forward to the opportunity that you have in the future to really teach these guys how to be good nukes.
And by the way...if the minimum was 3.20 knowledge to make it to the fleet, there would always be someone out there that would say that is still too low...so you tell me...where should we draw the line?  Trust me...there are plenty of 2.5 guys out there that are terrific operators...and there are even more 3.5 guys out there that are completely useless.

[Cycoticpenguin]

Listen...maybe everyone isn't as smart as you.  I am currently an instructor at NNPTC and it always makes me laugh when I hear guys like you call these kids stupid just because they are barely passing.  By no means am I a hugger, but the vast majority of these kids are going to make good nukes.  There will always be problems with the weeding out process, but with the way things are right now we need all the bodies we can get in the fleet.  If we can teach these kids 2.5 knowledge and send them on their way, then it is up to the leadership of whatever command they end up at to ensure that they are really transformed into useful, knowledgeable nukes.  And if there are Chiefs out there that don't want to do that, then I would say that they are more useless than that 2.5 student. 
I barely made it through this pipeline myself...and (not to be cocky or anything) I have always been one of those "go to guys" in every Engineering Dept that I have been a part of. 
Don't judge these guys too much on how they are doing now.  Not everyone is as smart as you are and the light doesn't always come on at the same time for everyone.  Teach them as much as you can and then look forward to the opportunity that you have in the future to really teach these guys how to be good nukes.
And by the way...if the minimum was 3.20 knowledge to make it to the fleet, there would always be someone out there that would say that is still too low...so you tell me...where should we draw the line?  Trust me...there are plenty of 2.5 guys out there that are terrific operators...and there are even more 3.5 guys out there that are completely useless.

Please dont make a habit out of bumping posts that are over a year old,  especially for your first post

Your GPA point is irrelevant. The way nukes are taught now, is not the same as how they were taught 15-20 years ago. Also, they lowered the GPA requirement to 2.5 instead of 2.8. If it was still 2.8, I know, at least in my class, quite a few would have been fed to the meat grinder.

The line is arbitrary. Pointless to discuss. The ability to operate and understand are two very different things.  I knew quite a few fantastic TG watches that could start that bad boy up in no time, but when it broke, they'd be in the corner with their tail in their legs.

Teach to your hearts content, YOU, sir, are molding the nuclear navy directly. What we send through is a direct result of your's and your fellow instructors doing. Take pride and comfort if you really feel what you are doing is adequate, Im not going to judge it.

[DDMurray]

Please dont make a habit out of bumping posts that are over a year old,  especially for your first post

Your GPA point is irrelevant. The way nukes are taught now, is not the same as how they were taught 15-20 years ago. Also, they lowered the GPA requirement to 2.5 instead of 2.8. If it was still 2.8, I know, at least in my class, quite a few would have been fed to the meat grinder.

The line is arbitrary. Pointless to discuss. The ability to operate and understand are two very different things.  I knew quite a few fantastic TG watches that could start that bad boy up in no time, but when it broke, they'd be in the corner with their tail in their legs.

Teach to your hearts content, YOU, sir, are molding the nuclear navy directly. What we send through is a direct result of your's and your fellow instructors doing. Take pride and comfort if you really feel what you are doing is adequate, Im not going to judge it.

ObiJuan- you are wise in the way of the nukes.  You seemed to have gained more knowledge in 6 years than the rest of us learned in a career.  When I was in class 8502, the minimum grade was 2.50.  I also knew plenty of guys who were book smart and public dumb (and vice versa).  I also know guys who were great operators and knowledge powerhouses that were crappy nukes because of their inability to work well with others. 

I acknowledge your omniscience, but please don't take a condescending tone with somebody who did something you didn't - stepped up to the plate to try and make a difference.

[Cycoticpenguin]

I acknowledge your omniscience, but please don't take a condescending tone with somebody who did something you didn't - stepped up to the plate to try and make a difference.

EXCUSE ME???

Oh you're a senior chief, forgot that makes you better then me. Get over yourself.

edit : please tell me where I had a "condescending" attitude... I was giving him praise if anything. I gave him crap for being a thread necromancer on his first post...

[Styrofoam]

heh. I started reading this thread thinking it was still 2010. I got to March, then I thought "Hey, it's not March yet."

[DDMurray]

edit : please tell me where I had a "condescending" attitude... I was giving him praise if anything. I gave him crap for being a thread necromancer on his first post...

Please dont make a habit out of bumping posts that are over a year old,  especially for your first post  

Why not?

Your GPA point is irrelevant. The way nukes are taught now, is not the same as how they were taught 15-20 years ago. Also, they lowered the GPA requirement to 2.5 instead of 2.8.

How do you know how they were taught 15-20 years ago?  You imply that you know that a 2.5 now is not nearly as tough to get now as it was in back in your day (6 years ago).

The line is arbitrary. Pointless to discuss. The ability to operate and understand are two very different things.  I knew quite a few fantastic TG watches that could start that bad boy up in no time, but when it broke, they'd be in the corner with their tail in their legs.

How many TG startups have you done or even seen (and I don't mean at NPTU)?  If I recall correctly you spent most of your time in the shipyard on medical hold.

Teach to your hearts content, YOU, sir, are molding the nuclear navy directly. What we send through is a direct result of your's and your fellow instructors doing. Take pride and comfort if you really feel what you are doing is adequate, Im not going to judge it.

If you read this and don't think it is condescending, then you are not nearly as wise as you portray yourself to be.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” - Teddy Roosevelt

CycoticPenguin/CM: I am a retired MCPO, but that is irrelevant.  What is relevant is that you espouse yourself to be some sort of expert and you are not.  A review of your posts tells me that you are an expert on:

1. How to extend your time at RTC/NNPTC/NPTU via medical hold.
2. Pointing out the deficiencies of others because you hit roadblocks in your quest to go from E-3 to O-6.

[Cycoticpenguin]

Why not?How do you know how they were taught 15-20 years ago?  You imply that you know that a 2.5 now is not nearly as tough to get now as it was in back in your day (6 years ago).
How many TG startups have you done or even seen (and I don't mean at NPTU)?  If I recall correctly you spent most of your time in the shipyard on medical hold.
If you read this and don't think it is condescending, then you are not nearly as wise as you portray yourself to be.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” - Teddy Roosevelt

CycoticPenguin/CM: I am a retired MCPO, but that is irrelevant.  What is relevant is that you espouse yourself to be some sort of expert and you are not.  A review of your posts tells me that you are an expert on:

1. How to extend your time at RTC/NNPTC/NPTU via medical hold.
2. Pointing out the deficiencies of others because you hit roadblocks in your quest to go from E-3 to O-6.

That rock you live under must be comfortable. My experience pales iin comparison to yours,  but two back to back deployments fully qualified. i have experienced my fair share of crap.You have some nerve to call me presumptuous.

Im not going to get into a pissing contest with you so consider anything further you say falling on deaf ears.

Edit : last time I checked shipyards last 6 months, not three years. And to answer your" why not" question, ever hear the phrase sayin something abouut a dead horse?

[DDMurray]

That rock you live under must be comfortable. My experience pales iin comparison to yours,  but two back to back deployments fully qualified. i have experienced my fair share of crap.You have some nerve to call me presumptuous.

Im not going to get into a pissing contest with you so consider anything further you say falling on deaf ears.

Edit : last time I checked shipyards last 6 months, not three years. And to answer your" why not" question, ever hear the phrase sayin something abouut a dead horse?

In case your deaf ears can still read:  You are right.  You have the right to your opinion.  I did not know that you did back to back deployments.  It was presumptuous of me to assume otherwise.  It was also uncalled for me to impugn your expertise.  For that I am truly sorry.  That being said, IMHO your comments to the instructor were still condescending and out of line.

[Cycoticpenguin]

In case your deaf ears can still read:  You are right.  You have the right to your opinion.  I did not know that you did back to back deployments.  It was presumptuous of me to assume otherwise.  It was also uncalled for me to impugn your expertise.  For that I am truly sorry.  That being said, IMHO you're comments to the instructor were still condescending and out of line.

I appreciate your response. I turned to this website for assistance with navy stuff, and it helped in most cases. I merely try to give my own perspective on things (95% of the time unwanted, but Im here ). Im not an "expert" and never will claim to be, but I do have enough experience (good and bad) to offer an opinion when the opportunity presents itself. My statement to the instructor wasnt intended to be condescending at all. I was saying he's directly interfacing with the "new" nuclear navy, and the product he provides (trained operators) will directly influence where the nuclear navy will go from today. Thats a huge responsibility!

[LaFeet]

WOW  what a great read..... nukes of old and nukes anew.....

 I was not (nor am I today) the smartest in my class.  Heck, I was more interested in the "all the beer & wine you could drink" nights at the local skating rinks (ahhh Orlando  I miss you).

 I did pass and I did comtinue on with my career.  Enough to bet I do not ever want to do another battery charge, long form precrit, D/P cell replacement, MG end bell removal, RISIC replacement or troubleshoot the Radioman's WLR ** again. Unlike most of you guys I was on more than one class of boat (two being one of a kind) so my experience may be a tad different than yours.  It was not uncommon for us to qualify different watch stations, in fact it was encouraged.  I think I was the first RO on the Narwhal to qualify BCE.

 As for the quality of todays students?  I can not answer that.  I have kids out there that I trained and I know they are trying to pass on what I learned back in the MagAmp days.  I can only hope that by "flooding the gates" we manage to get enough quality operators to safely man our fleet.

 With todays technology the operators may not be able to draw the Reactor Control Circuit but I damn well expect them to be able to draw the Discharge System or list all the vital loads (hell I cant forget it).

 All in all, to those that have served and to those now serving - thank you

[OldHP]

WOW  what a great read..... nukes of old and nukes anew.....

All in all, to those that have served and to those now serving - thank you!

I'll second that!   

[playswithairplanes]

You have to have a better integrated knowledge level AND there are more procedures.  Commercial nukes are much more complicated than Navy plants.  Not better in my opinion, just more complicated.

The plants are much more complex because they are 30+ years old. There hasn't been a new built plant in the USA in that time. If the new designs were to be built a lot of that old complexity would be engineered out. If you look at some of the German Siemens designs, they are slick. Just my 2 cents.

[Sun Dog]

The plants are much more complex because they are 30+ years old.
 

Certainly the Navy does not have any ships running on reactors that are 30+ years old!

USS Enterprise (CVN-65) commissioned 25 November 1961

USS Nimitz (CVN-68) commissioned 03 May 1975

USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69) commissioned 18 October 1977

[playswithairplanes]

Certainly the Navy does not have any ships running on reactors that are 30+ years old!

USS Enterprise (CVN-65) commissioned 25 November 1961

USS Nimitz (CVN-68) commissioned 03 May 1975

USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69) commissioned 18 October 1977

Yes. Even in the Navy side, things get less complex with time. Comparing A1W or S3G to the current plants being use. It wasn't my intent to say that these were in some way bad plant designs, or some how inferior. Simply pointing out that the newer 4th Gen and 5th Gen reactors that are being designed and used in Europe are much less complex. Take the Siemens Gas Cooled PBRs. Essentially eliminates the LOCA and loss of flow accident possibilities by design. Or compare an old style S3G to an S8G with NC flow capability. Different generations, different levels of complexity. That was my point. Not trying to start a fight.

[Cycoticpenguin]

The plants are much more complex because they are 30+ years old. There hasn't been a new built plant in the USA in that time. If the new designs were to be built a lot of that old complexity would be engineered out. If you look at some of the German Siemens designs, they are slick. Just my 2 cents.

My plant is far, far, far less complex then an A4W....

Of course, comparing a plant with size and weight restrictions, while maintaining appropriate output and bouncing abilities to be able to operate in a war scenario, while being able to resist impacts and still maintain integrity to a plant designed to make money isnt comparing apples to apples... while at the same time, the technology on my a4w experience is vastly superior to my "crappy" instrumentation here. 

[HydroDave63]

My plant is far, far, far less complex then an A4W....

Of course, comparing a plant with size and weight restrictions, while maintaining appropriate output and bouncing abilities to be able to operate in a war scenario, while being able to resist impacts and still maintain integrity to a plant designed to make money isnt comparing apples to apples... while at the same time, the technology on my a4w experience is vastly superior to my "crappy" instrumentation here. 

So just when DID you license on either one? Oh, I see....

[JustinHEMI05]

My plant is far, far, far less complex then an A4W....

Wrong.

[drayer54]

My plant is far, far, far less complex then an A4W....

Of course, comparing a plant with size and weight restrictions, while maintaining appropriate output and bouncing abilities to be able to operate in a war scenario, while being able to resist impacts and still maintain integrity to a plant designed to make money isnt comparing apples to apples... while at the same time, the technology on my a4w experience is vastly superior to my "crappy" instrumentation here. 

But does it have clever little drawings everywhere in the shape of a male cough: genitalia cough: ? Do the radiation signs have years of history and sadness etched on the back of it? Do you get to taste the sweet aroma of jet exhaust ? Does it have piping being held together by lagging and years and years of paint? I better stop before I get homesick....

[MacGyver]

My plant is far, far, far less complex then an A4W....

Of course, comparing a plant with size and weight restrictions, while maintaining appropriate output and bouncing abilities to be able to operate in a war scenario, while being able to resist impacts and still maintain integrity to a plant designed to make money isnt comparing apples to apples... while at the same time, the technology on my a4w experience is vastly superior to my "crappy" instrumentation here. 

[Cycoticpenguin]

But does it have clever little drawings everywhere in the shape of a male cough: genitalia cough: ? Do the radiation signs have years of history and sadness etched on the back of it? Do you get to taste the sweet aroma of jet exhaust ? Does it have piping being held together by lagging and years and years of paint? I better stop before I get homesick....

nah, you get fired for that crap

[drayer54]

nah, you get fired for that crap

I find that hard to believe..... 

[MacGyver]

[Cycoticpenguin]

I find that hard to believe..... 

Its not the navy man. You dont go to NJP for stuff. You go to jail and get fined by the NRC. No smilie faces here.  Yes theres some horseplay, but thats about where it stops.