Creating a virtual PWR

[IrradiatedPixel]

I'm not referring to a reactor simulator.  Instead, I mean a 3D computer graphics (CG) model that allows one to walk through the plant and see what you'd really see if you were in a PWR.  This is something I will eventually have to undertake in the process of creating my interactive fiction.  (I'm assuming there aren't already CG models available, but I'd love to hear about it if there are!)

Building a half-decent CG model is going to take some good reference material.  When I started researching NPPs, I didn't really expect to find much on-line, due to 9/11 and all.  However, I did actually find a decent amount of info.  nucleartourist.com gave me an excellent primer so that I can converse with y'all and only get mildly confused instead of bewildered. 

You guys have some very nice photos up (thank you all).  haefeli2 also has a site with some excellent photographic work in some Swiss plants (thanks to him too).  From nucleartourist.com, I was able to piece together most of a labelled illustration of Callaway that Joseph Gonyeau was using there in sections.  (If anyone from Callaway knows how I could get the whole thing, they'd make my day.)

Also from nucleartourist.com, I found something else that I really wasn't expecting: an 85MB PSAR of Lungmen NPS.  The level of detail in that is extremely useful.  Unfortunately, Lungmen is a BWR, so a good deal of that info isn't relevant to my virtual PWR.

What I now have to go from is not too shabby.  What would be ideal is probably not within my reach, thanks to Bin Laden and friends.  To create the model, I need to decide the 3D location and dimensions of every door, every hatch, every ladder, every catwalk, every pipe, every bus bar, every vent.. the diameter of every pipe, the distance between joints, where they disappear into the wall.. every button and light on every control panel, etc. etc..

I have to either get these details from somewhere, or dream them up.  My problem is I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist, and if I have to pick a diameter for a pipe, I'm liable to download a 300 page engineering document and sift through it trying to figure out how to calculate it.  (Well, maybe not that bad...)

One day while drunk on sleep deprivation, it occurred to me that this sort of data probably isn't much of a security threat for a plant that's dead and buried.  I checked the NRC site, and sure enough, there are some PWRs defuelled and taken apart.  I actually e-mailed the NRC asking whether such a thing might be available.  I didn't get any reply, and didn't really expect to.

What I'm wondering is whether there's a chance in ?? of getting data that would make my job easier, or if I should consider myself lucky to even have what I do, and ought to just run with what I have, even though piecing it all together will be a big job.

Assuming I can't get more than what I have, what I might do is post a link every once in a while to what I've managed to come up with, and anyone here interested can have a look at my drawings & pictures and let me know if anything is preposterously wrong.

Any comments on what my best bet would be?

Thanks,
Kevin

[shayne]

Getting such information could be difficult.  'Hollywood' cannot get such information to make somewhat of a accurate movie.  Although it may help if you didn't limit yourself to Nuclear Power Plants.  A steam plant is a steam plant.  Most of them look the same.

AutoCAD, Microstation, and other CAD programs are capable of doing such things.  However most plants were built or designed on paper before this technology was available.  Unless the plant has spent the money and time to get the prints updated to the latest versions of such CAD programs, which is unlikely.  I believe most plants would just scan the old print and inport the scanned image into CAD.  Any changes then would be written over in CAD.  The inported print would be off scale and have no 3D modeling.

Even if you could get the pipe size, chances are that it would be covered with lagging or shielding.  Most pipes are.  They are also ran together on the same support structure, so often walking through it is hard to determine what system each pipe is if they are not color coded or marked.

[HydroDave63]

I'm not referring to a reactor simulator.  Instead, I mean a 3D computer graphics (CG) model that allows one to walk through the plant and see what you'd really see if you were in a PWR.  This is something I will eventually have to undertake in the process of creating my interactive fiction.  (I'm assuming there aren't already CG models available, but I'd love to hear about it if there are!)

(snip)

You guys have some very nice photos up (thank you all).  haefeli2 also has a site with some excellent photographic work in some Swiss plants (thanks to him too).  From nucleartourist.com, I was able to piece together most of a labelled illustration of Callaway that Joseph Gonyeau was using there in sections.  (If anyone from Callaway knows how I could get the whole thing, they'd make my day.)

(snip)

What I now have to go from is not too shabby.  What would be ideal is probably not within my reach, thanks to Bin Laden and friends.  To create the model, I need to decide the 3D location and dimensions of every door, every hatch, every ladder, every catwalk, every pipe, every bus bar, every vent.. the diameter of every pipe, the distance between joints, where they disappear into the wall.. every button and light on every control panel, etc. etc..

(snip)

Any comments on what my best bet would be?

Thanks,
Kevin

If you want something using a couple pics for a virtual character to play Duke Nukem in, I don't think it is a problem. If you were to make a correct 3-d simulator (very labor intensive, there were a couple in the works at various plants I know of first-hand until 9/11), then I'm quite confident that the featured plant(s) will take vigorous action to preclude you from distributing the product, etc. Also, I'd probably not post publicly what plant(s) you wish to use for your simulator, along those same lines. Consider that the plant pics currently abvailable for public viewing have been vetted by the plants so as to not help evildoers in their planning.

[IrradiatedPixel]

...I'm quite confident that the featured plant(s) will take vigorous action to preclude you from distributing the product, etc...

Yeah, I figured using an exact model of a running plant wouldn't be a good idea, which is why I was thinking that a demolished plant might be a better bet because there's no further threat to the info being used against the plant.  Of course, it also means that there probably won't have been any effort to make CAD models, either.

I'm not sure how/if you could get details for a demolished plant.  I assume some record is kept somewhere, for posterity...

To model the whole plant to excrutiating detail would be a really massive effort.  (And creating a game is a massive effort as it is.)  Fortunately, I'm spared a bit by the format I've chosen for the game, which is that the character moves around on fixed views.  This means that I only have to pay attention to little details in the areas that happen to be close to my chosen vantage points.  For the rest, I can get away with lower detail.  I'm also at the advantage that it doesn't have to be perfect, as long as it looks good.

...Also, I'd probably not post publicly what plant(s) you wish to use for your simulator, along those same lines. Consider that the plant pics currently abvailable for public viewing have been vetted by the plants so as to not help evildoers in their planning.

Yeah, if I was to get complete data, it would probably be for a demolished plant, so not much of a risk.  If I do end up using what little bits and pieces I can get of live plants, it would most likely end up a mish-mash of different plants and so not be of much help to baddies.

As for the pipes being difficult to tell apart, that's actually an advantage for me because it means if it comes down to it, I can just throw in some pipes at random, and it's not implausible to just call it a generic pipe whose function is unknown.  I like to throw in explanations when the player looks at things, to make things interesting, but I'm sure they'll excuse me if I just tell them they see a myriad of pipes.  If they happen to look at a significant one, then they get a more concise explanation.  In my model, I can mark off for reference what is 'well-defined' and what is 'fluff'.

-Kevin

[johnndor]

Good luck - I think only the most recent plants are likely to have the kind of detailed 3D models that you are looking for, and since they have spent much $$$ in creating these, and due to security, the are unlikely to just give it to you.

Older and "demolished" plants probably never had the 3D model built - back in the days, they made actual 3D (leggo and stick) models, not computer graphics.

If you are interested, try contacting GE in San Jose, and ask them for a tour/interview, tell them you are doing research for a book, and ask if you can see their 3D model for Lungmen.

[Roll Tide]

Perhaps you could find something overseas easier than in the US. I was shocked about the details provided in Lithuania. Perhaps some of the PWRs in Asia have similar info...


http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,7897.msg42149.html#msg42149

[alphadude]

you can use any turbine side of most fossil fuel power plants to simulate. As for the reactor compartment, containment, building etc. B&W are less complex, then CE, then Westinghouse. (regen heat exchanger, Yikes!!) Aux buildings thats another can of worms, again B&W and CE seem to be less complex. 

[GuloGulo]

Maybe what would help IrradiatedPixel would be a list of things inside a nuclear plant, if he's after just the correct look of things, and not much more.

For example, we all know there are pipes involved, but are they black pipe, PVC, or something else?  What are some of the different pipe thicknesses and their relative commonplace?

Are there spinning/flashing lights in a reactor building?  Catwalks?  What do the control rooms look like?  An endless wall of needle gauges, or a sleek bay of shiny computers?   Do the doors look unusual, or are they just bolt-hinged like the ones in our houses?

Good luck!

[Ammskore]

Check out this link:
http://www.ibrae.ac.ru/russian/211105/PDFFILES/PAPERS/873-875.pdf
Its a research paper describing what their doing at the University of Illinois.  I got my nuke degree from there a year ago and they were just beginning to do the 3-D modeling.  Let me know if you have any questions, I'd be glad to answer them.

Chris