Private-Sector qualifications after Navy Nuke questions

[Bergeron37]

First off I would like to apologize if any user finds this post offensive because there has been one before, or if it is in the wrong place. I have spent a few weeks searching and perusing the site I have found some really useful information.    

Although this is not directly related to my question, background information may be useful (And I appreciate the read   )I am applying for the NUPOC scholarship. I am a rising junior at an ABET accredited university and have completed 63 credits with a 3.217 in Mechanical Engineering. I think I have a pretty firm grasp on what the NUPOC entails and will continue to grow my knowledge between my recruiter and resources like this site. My school is in New England and I currently live in Maryland during the breaks so I am in sort of an odd application process. I have completed my physical examination already, VIP trip, and some preliminary paperwork back at my school, where my recruiter is based. My recruiter has some more papers I need to sign before he can submit my application and he would like to go over them by phone tomorrow after I get off work.

My question arises from my initial interest in engineering. I have a strong passion for it and would like to continue it in the private sector after I serve my time (whether it will be 5 years or 25 years, no matter). I have read posts about how "raw" "gritty" engineering is not really practiced in navy besides the Navy Civil engineering (which I have no desire in the civil discipline). I originally sparked interest in NUPOC and Navy Nukes because I feel a strong need to serve and also have a strong interest in Nuclear Engineering.

Questions

• After how many years of being an active Naval Nuclear Officer will be equivalent experience to obtain a Nuclear Engineering job in the private sector (aka is it at all equivalent to Nuclear engineering degree)  
• Is it possible to gain enough real life experience to be able to complete the Professional Engineer (P.E.) exam for Nuclear Engineering (it has been a longtime personal goal to get my PE license)
• How does starting with NUPOC affect the first two questions, if at all

I also realize that with the Naval experience and the diverse opportunities that come with a ME degree, there are many options other than Nuclear Engineering coming out of active duty, but I was just wondering because I know the PE exam is so specified and if that is what I want to do, it is what I want to do!

Thanks a lot for your time!

[cheme09]

I have read posts about how "raw" "gritty" engineering is not really practiced in navy besides the Navy Civil engineering (which I have no desire in the civil discipline).

There is a possibility to do real engineering through NUPOC if you go the NRE route.  But with your GPA it's highly unlikely you'll get an interview for that.

• After how many years of being an active Naval Nuclear Officer will be equivalent experience to obtain a Nuclear Engineering job in the private sector (aka is it at all equivalent to Nuclear engineering degree) 

Unless you're NRE, then none.  Not equivalent.

• Is it possible to gain enough real life experience to be able to complete the Professional Engineer (P.E.) exam for Nuclear Engineering (it has been a longtime personal goal to get my PE license) 

See above answer regarding gaining "real life (engineering) experience.  It's probably not possible, but I guess it depends on whether or not you can convice NCEES or whatever state board you're applying to that your time in the Navy counts as real engineering experience.  Then you'll have the tough task of obtaining 3 references from PEs that you've worked under during your time in the Navy - highly unlikely.

• How does starting with NUPOC affect the first two questions

If you make it into NUPOC as a URL officer (read: subs or surface) don't expect to do any engineering.  You'll be an officer.  Your job is to make sure your division works and is doing its part to be battle ready.  Could you be in charge of an engineering division?  Possibly.  If that is the case, will you be doing engineering work?  Most likely not.

[Bergeron37]

Thanks for taking the time for a detailed response 

There is a possibility to do real engineering through NUPOC if you go the NRE route.  But with your GPA it's highly unlikely you'll get an interview for that.
Unless you're NRE, then none.  Not equivalent.

Might be an irrelevant question but I have four semesters left, and I plan on bringing up my GPA for a stronger grad GPA (I had one bad semester I am usually around 3.5+) could I be considered? I know that the application process is ongoing and imminent and if I get my interview I believe it is decided there, so that is where I find it irrelevant, to ask for reconsideration two years after..or maybe it is "truly" decided after OCS or something similar?

It's probably not possible, but I guess it depends on whether or not you can convice NCEES or whatever state board you're applying to that your time in the Navy counts as real engineering experience.  Then you'll have the tough task of obtaining 3 references from PEs that you've worked under during your time in the Navy - highly unlikely.

Overall, it is a little disheartening because if I spend 15+yrs in private sector I know one of my goals would be to be a PE. But I am also confident that I could pursue graduate education in nuclear or mechanical needed to pursue a PE; whether while in service or after, or even sandwiched in between. But the disappointment is definitely nothing compared to my desire to ..

If you make it into NUPOC as a URL officer (read: subs or surface) don't expect to do any engineering.  You'll be an officer.  Your job is to make sure your division works and is doing its part to be battle ready. 

[cheme09]

Thanks for taking the time for a detailed response 
Might be an irrelevant question but I have four semesters left, and I plan on bringing up my GPA for a stronger grad GPA (I had one bad semester I am usually around 3.5+) could I be considered? I know that the application process is ongoing and imminent and if I get my interview I believe it is decided there, so that is where I find it irrelevant, to ask for reconsideration two years after..or maybe it is "truly" decided after OCS or something similar?

Correct; it's irrelevant.  If you make it to an interview for subs/surface, you have two options.  Pass and sign papers or fail and go home.  If you pass and sign, you're locked in to what it is you signed for, including that little blurb about serving as an enlisted striker if you DOR from OCS.

You could wait a few semesters to raise your GPA, but I'm sure the SME here (Gamecock) would tell you that unless you're in the 3.9+ range you won't make the cut for NRE.

[Gamecock]

You could wait a few semesters to raise your GPA, but I'm sure the SME here (Gamecock) would tell you that unless you're in the 3.9+ range you won't make the cut for NRE.

You do need an extremely high GPA to be considered for NRE.  3.2 is not going to cut it, but will make you competitive for subs or surface-nuke.

Cheers,
GC

[Bergeron37]

You do need an extremely high GPA to be considered for NRE.  3.2 is not going to cut it

You could wait a few semesters to raise your GPA, but I'm sure the SME here (Gamecock) would tell you that unless you're in the 3.9+ range you won't make the cut for NRE.

Thanks GC and cheme09. To be honest, NRE hasn't exactly peaked my interest. My recruiter has said I will most likely not see the active duty experience that sub/swon will see, and most likely publish documents in DC. Not sure how true that is but maybe he was generalizing, or my memory is 

but will make you competitive for subs or surface-nuke.

Next I have to decide SWO(N) or subs, which I know is a  question to ask around here Lol!! So I'll continue my research. Futile most likely, as the "needs of the navy" will certainly extend its arms to me. Cheers   

[HeavyD]

Here's a bit of info that may prove useful.

Sub Nuke officers are almost always locked into Nuclear billets, even for shore duty.

Surface Nuke Officers, over a 20 year career, will actually spend a majority of their career in non-Nuke billets. 

The surface fleet has far more non-Nuke ships than it does carriers, so the need for Nuke SWOs filling non-Nuke billets is very high.

EVERY long term (more than their initial obligation) Nuke SWO I worked with or for in my 20 year career had more non-Nuke assignments than Nuke.

Best of luck!

[cheme09]

Thanks GC and cheme09. To be honest, NRE hasn't exactly peaked my interest. My recruiter has said I will most likely not see the active duty experience that sub/swon will see, and most likely publish documents in DC. Not sure how true that is but maybe he was generalizing, or my memory is 

It is true a NRE will not get the operational experience as submarine or surface officers, but sub and surface officers are operational jobs, not engineering jobs.  Guess what kind of job you'll have as an NRE.  That is exactly what engineers in the civilian world do.  We have desk jobs, work on calcs/evaluations and reports and publish documents.  If you're an engineer at a plant, you'll have the opportunity  to get away from the desk and go out in the field, but a majority of your time is behind a desk doing paper work.  As somebody who claims to have a strong passion for engineering, it's important you understand what an engineer actually does in the real world.

Next I have to decide SWO(N) or subs, which I know is a  question to ask around here Lol!!

Incorrect.  When you apply to a civilian commissioning program in the Navy, you must apply to a certain designator.  That means you do get a decision between subs or swo(n).  Unlike other branches of the armed forces where you go to OCS and submit a wishlist and don't find out what job you have until you earn your commission, in the Navy you already know what job you will have prior to OCS - you just have to pass.

[cheme09]

Sub Nuke officers are almost always locked into Nuclear billets, even for shore duty.

Just a question to that peaked my curiosity:

I suppose NAV or WEPS on a sub is considered a nuclear billet because it's on a sub, but as a sub officer, unless you make ENG, will you ever have a nuclear related job at sea?

[HeavyD]

The last time I checked, every officer on a sub is actually a Nuke, with the exception of the Supply Officer.  Any of the submariners on here can correct that, if wrong.

So, to expound on this further, the entire submarine force is controlled by Nukes.  Everything related to submarines, if I recall correctly, is controlled by the DNR (Director of Naval Reactors).

Carriers are controlled by the aviation community; destroyers, frigates, cruisers, gators (amphibious assault ships) are controlled by the SWO community.

So while a sub officer may not be in a "Nuke" billet, they will most likely be in a submarine support billet or submarine controlled billet, surrounded by other Nuke officers.

Hopefully that adds some clarity to the picture.

[RDTroja]

Just a question to that peaked my curiosity:

I suppose NAV or WEPS on a sub is considered a nuclear billet because it's on a sub, but as a sub officer, unless you make ENG, will you ever have a nuclear related job at sea?

Today's unsolicited (and possibly unwanted) English lesson: Curiosity is 'piqued' -- not peaked. (Pique means to arouse, stimulate or annoy.)

If this lesson annoys you, just refer to your reaction as a 'fit of pique.'

We now return you to your irregularly scheduled topic.

[cheme09]

The last time I checked, every officer on a sub is actually a Nuke, with the exception of the Supply Officer.  Any of the submariners on here can correct that, if wrong.

So, to expound on this further, the entire submarine force is controlled by Nukes.  Everything related to submarines, if I recall correctly, is controlled by the DNR (Director of Naval Reactors).

Carriers are controlled by the aviation community; destroyers, frigates, cruisers, gators (amphibious assault ships) are controlled by the SWO community.

So while a sub officer may not be in a "Nuke" billet, they will most likely be in a submarine support billet or submarine controlled billet, surrounded by other Nuke officers.

Hopefully that adds some clarity to the picture.

I understand that all sub officers are nukes except the chop.  I guess my question wasn't too clear.

What I was getting at was that it seems the only job (DH and above) that deals directly with the training from nuclear power school would be ENG.  So if someone is truly interested in nuclear power would ENG be the only option?  Would the other DH positions or even XO or CO have a lot of nuclear-type work?

[cheme09]

Today's unsolicited (and possibly unwanted) English lesson: Curiosity is 'piqued' -- not peaked. (Pique means to arouse, stimulate or annoy.)

If this lesson annoys you, just refer to your reaction as a 'fit of pique.'

We now return you to your irregularly scheduled topic.

Much appreciated, RDTroja.

[Bergeron37]

Sub Nuke officers are almost always locked into Nuclear billets, even for shore duty.
Surface Nuke Officers, over a 20 year career, will actually spend a majority of their career in non-Nuke billets. 
The surface fleet has far more non-Nuke ships than it does carriers, so the need for Nuke SWOs filling non-Nuke billets is very high.

Thanks for the info.

That is what I have found from browsing the internet. The false rumors that SWO(N) "sucks" "isn't real nuke" basically all the generalizations lie in that a SWO(N) will spend just as much time as a SWO; which is just about preference more than actual experience I suppose. I want to do nuclear. That settles that.

That is exactly what engineers in the civilian world do.  We have desk jobs, work on calcs/evaluations and reports and publish documents.  If you're an engineer at a plant, you'll have the opportunity  to get away from the desk and go out in the field, but a majority of your time is behind a desk doing paper work.  As somebody who claims to have a strong passion for engineering, it's important you understand what an engineer actually does in the real world.

I have had multiple engineering internships I fully understand what the job entails in the real world --that is what drives my passion not putting together legos as kid.

I currently work for a company as an engineering intern and we are a private company and we have a lot of different equipment systems; processing raw material into finished products, mixing already finished products, to everything in between. I have had plenty of opportunities to work as an engineer under process plant managers as well as my fair share of desk work for the engineering department managers and mechanical engineers.

Also, pertaining to the NRE/Sub officer, I don't think I am in the wrong for wanting to have an experience in the Navy differing from what waits for me in the private industry.

Incorrect.  When you apply to a civilian commissioning program in the Navy, you must apply to a certain designator.  That means you do get a decision between subs or swo(n).  Unlike other branches of the armed forces where you go to OCS and submit a wishlist and don't find out what job you have until you earn your commission, in the Navy you already know what job you will have prior to OCS - you just have to pass.

When it comes to NUPOC, when would I choose this? Just talking to my recruiter on the phone the other day, I acknowledged I wasn't sure if I wanted to be SWO or subs. He said he had me down for Subs first and that I could have a few days to think it over. I asked when I would make that decision and he said you can put your first choice, but what it comes down to is the needs of the Navy decided by the Admiral.

I think I have narrowed it down to subs as of now. It is everything I want from my Navy experience.

The last time I checked, every officer on a sub is actually a Nuke, with the exception of the Supply Officer.  Any of the submariners on here can correct that, if wrong.

So, to expound on this further, the entire submarine force is controlled by Nukes.  Everything related to submarines, if I recall correctly, is controlled by the DNR (Director of Naval Reactors).

Carriers are controlled by the aviation community; destroyers, frigates, cruisers, gators (amphibious assault ships) are controlled by the SWO community.

So while a sub officer may not be in a "Nuke" billet, they will most likely be in a submarine support billet or submarine controlled billet, surrounded by other Nuke officers.

This is what I have found from my research as well...which leaves me to.....

What I was getting at was that it seems the only job (DH and above) that deals directly with the training from nuclear power school would be ENG.  So if someone is truly interested in nuclear power would ENG be the only option?  Would the other DH positions or even XO or CO have a lot of nuclear-type work?

+1

[Gamecock]

Carriers are controlled by the aviation community;

Just to clear up a minor conceptual error.....

Do you really believe that any vessel with a nuclear reactor is "controlled" by the aviation community?

Cheers,

GC

[HeavyD]

Just to clear up a minor conceptual error.....

Do you really believe that any vessel with a nuclear reactor is "controlled" by the aviation community?

Cheers,

GC

To expand some, COMNAVAIRLANT made all the decisions about where we went, what we did and when we did it

As far as "controlling" the plants, not sure any of the aviators aside from the Old Man and the XO even knew how to find their way there

[spekkio]

Here's a bit of info that may prove useful.

Sub Nuke officers are almost always locked into Nuclear billets, even for shore duty.

Surface Nuke Officers, over a 20 year career, will actually spend a majority of their career in non-Nuke billets.  

The surface fleet has far more non-Nuke ships than it does carriers, so the need for Nuke SWOs filling non-Nuke billets is very high.

EVERY long term (more than their initial obligation) Nuke SWO I worked with or for in my 20 year career had more non-Nuke assignments than Nuke.

Best of luck!

I'm not sure what you base this on...

On my shore duty slate, there were about 6 nuke jobs (4 prototype instructor, 2 power school instructor). The other 30 or so jobs were non-nuke billets; subschool instructor, trainer instructor, staff at X command, NROTC instructor.

If you one is a NAV/WEPS, it's difficult to get a shore duty that is a nuke billet since they usually want a served ENG.

It is true that at sea in the sub service, the nuclear power aspect never goes away. As a Nav/Weps, you'd be expected to maintain proficeincy as EOOW (which amounts to standing just two watches a month in the ER) and participate in the eng dept training program because you have to be able to perform as the Eng if anything were to happen to him. As an XO, you are responsible for the entire crew including the nukes, and as a CO you make a lot of the bottom-line decisions regarding the operations of the plant.

The thing I've heard SWO(N) complain about is brain-dumping all the nuclear knowledge after their carrier tour in the process of doing their shore tour and non-nuke DH tour, but then they're expected to be experts the moment they show up to the carrier as a DH.

That is what I have found from browsing the internet. The false rumors that SWO(N) "sucks" "isn't real nuke" basically all the generalizations lie in that a SWO(N) will spend just as much time as a SWO; which is just about preference more than actual experience I suppose. I want to do nuclear. That settles that.

Just to clear something up...

Those gold dolphins you are going to qualify for are not about the nuke plant; they're about tactics. The sub doesn't exist as a training platform for nuclear operators. The nuclear operators exist to allow the sub to go on missions it couldn't do on diesel-electric power. Your primary job as a sub officer is to develop into a CO capable of getting the ship where it needs to be and putting warheads on foreheads. Some of that includes learning about and supervising the operations of the reactor plant; most of it does not. The officers who spend their entire JO tours in 'the box' often feel like they missed out on the action of being on mission.

Yes, all the officers on a sub sans the chop are nuke trained (except maybe the AWEPS on a boomer if you get an LDO). However, even if you are an ENG as a DH you will devote a significant amount of your time standing watch in the conn and doing tactical stuff... 6 hours every 18, in fact. You will have to participate in officer training which is usually about tactics. It sounds like you have this picture of submarines being little more than an undersea nuclear reactor plant.

The fact that the surface fleet splits it up allows you to focus on one or the other at one time, which generally gives you more free time to do something else. It's just as annoying for the ENG to listen to a JO fumble over torpedo pre-sets in a slideshow for an hour as it is for a Nav/Weps to listen to an MM1 regurgitate slides on heat transfer equations for an hour for the billionth time when you're on very little sleep and the XO is up your ass for who knows what.

Also, pertaining to the NRE/Sub officer, I don't think I am in the wrong for wanting to have an experience in the Navy differing from what waits for me in the private industry.

I hope you realize that there is an expiration date on your engineering degree. Most employers will want to get their entry-level employees from interns, but if you don't have a job lined up in your senior year you're behind the curve. If you don't work in the field for 5 years to be a sub officer, it's going to become more difficult for you to get back into the industry than if you had just gotten a job to begin with.

[Bergeron37]

Just to clear something up...

Those gold dolphins you are going to qualify for are not about the nuke plant; they're about tactics. The sub doesn't exist as a training platform for nuclear operators. The nuclear operators exist to allow the sub to go on missions it couldn't do on diesel-electric power. Your primary job as a sub officer is to develop into a CO capable of getting the ship where it needs to be and putting warheads on foreheads. Some of that includes learning about and supervising the operations of the reactor plant; most of it does not. The officers who spend their entire JO tours in 'the box' often feel like they missed out on the action of being on mission.

I am aware and that is what I wish to sign up for. Any enthusiasm for working with nuclear power shouldn't be seen as an all encompassing single goal.

It sounds like you have this picture of submarines being little more than an undersea nuclear reactor plant.

May sound like it through a few posts but not the case. From the VIP trip I liked the experience I would be getting and we weren't even allowed in engine room.

I hope you realize that there is an expiration date on your engineering degree. Most employers will want to get their entry-level employees from interns, but if you don't have a job lined up in your senior year you're behind the curve. If you don't work in the field for 5 years to be a sub officer, it's going to become more difficult for you to get back into the industry than if you had just gotten a job to begin with.

Most of my references for the NUPOC were from employers that were quite saddened I wasn't pursuing a future with them and I am going into my first semester as a junior. I am aware of the opportunities ahead of me if I did not serve.

I want to serve in the Navy Don't let any assumptions steer you wrong. I am forfeiting any possible opportunities out of college for the Navy; even though I feel like I would be gaining more with the Navy.

That being said, graduate school has been in my plan regardless. If I were to not join the Navy, I would seriously consider graduate school. If I join the Navy, I will most definitely pursue a graduate degree. That seems to ease ones transition into the private sector, no?

[spekkio]

Sounds like you've got it all figured out then.

Just be aware that the BS about 'surface nukes aren't real nukes' is just that -- BS. Every other tour as a SWO(N) will be a dedicated nuke tour where you will ONLY do nuclear power related stuff, all the way up to the O-6 RO.

On subs, you will never do ONLY nuclear power related stuff, even as an eng.

There's a saying that submariners work their way out of the ER, and SWO(N) work their way into it.

[HeavyD]

Those gold dolphins you are going to qualify for are not about the nuke plant; they're about tactics. The sub doesn't exist as a training platform for nuclear operators. The nuclear operators exist to allow the sub to go on missions it couldn't do on diesel-electric power. Your primary job as a sub officer is to develop into a CO capable of getting the ship where it needs to be and putting warheads on foreheads. Some of that includes learning about and supervising the operations of the reactor plant; most of it does not. The officers who spend their entire JO tours in 'the box' often feel like they missed out on the action of being on mission.

Yes, all the officers on a sub sans the chop are nuke trained (except maybe the AWEPS on a boomer if you get an LDO). However, even if you are an ENG as a DH you will devote a significant amount of your time standing watch in the conn and doing tactical stuff... 6 hours every 18, in fact. You will have to participate in officer training which is usually about tactics. It sounds like you have this picture of submarines being little more than an undersea nuclear reactor plant.

The fact that the surface fleet splits it up allows you to focus on one or the other at one time, which generally gives you more free time to do something else. It's just as annoying for the ENG to listen to a JO fumble over torpedo pre-sets in a slideshow for an hour as it is for a Nav/Weps to listen to an MM1 regurgitate slides on heat transfer equations for an hour for the billionth time when you're on very little sleep and the XO is up your ass for who knows what.

Just to clarify, my entire 20 year career was spent on carriers.  My discussion on submarines was based on discussions with a limited number of Shift Engineers at prototype, so it is more than likely skewed.

Having said that, Spekkio's statements above about your overall role in the Navy as an officer are spot on.  Steady progress towards the eventuality of being a CO is the road all JOs start on.  One major difference is that a Nuke SWO won't be a CO of an aircraft carrier.  However, every RO (Reactor Officer) I served with but one was a post-CO tour CDR or CAPT of either a destroyer or cruiser.  The exception was an EDO (Engineering Duty Officer) CDR who came aboard near the end of our last deployment to take the ship in for refueling and overhaul; and he picked up CAPT a year later.

You seem to have a clear plan on what you want and how to achieve it.  Stay focused and keep us in the loop on how the journey goes. 

[Bergeron37]

Sounds like you've got it all figured out then.

Just be aware that the BS about 'surface nukes aren't real nukes' is just that -- BS. Every other tour as a SWO(N) will be a dedicated nuke tour where you will ONLY do nuclear power related stuff, all the way up to the O-6 RO.

On subs, you will never do ONLY nuclear power related stuff, even as an eng.

There's a saying that submariners work their way out of the ER, and SWO(N) work their way into it.

You seem to have a clear plan on what you want and how to achieve it.  Stay focused and keep us in the loop on how the journey goes. 

I appreciate the kind words HeavyD.

I had some questions about this SWO vs Sub stuff and called my Chief. Started a new thread, as I feel I am getting off topic, and you guys seem like really good resources...

http://www.nukeworker.com/forum/index.php/topic,36724.0.html

Appreciate the look!